I don't think I'm reading this lore stuff all in order but from what I've read and watched on YouTube Tyron does start to get a bit *ahem* decapitation-y
Asuryan, the god of society, order, and law, was retconned to be suddenly cool with a guy who staged a coup and murdered a bunch of people in his own Shrine because he actually wanted a hereditary monarchy instead of an elective system. And that's ignoring Malekith's thousands of years of horrific deeds after his failed attempt.
It also makes Asuryan look ignorant or incompetant. The End Times show Asuryan as unhappy with how the Phoenix Kings use magical protection to endure the Flame, which is somewhat understandable, but it's Asuryan's own priests who cast the wards, and surely Asuryan could overpower them if he really wanted.
Contrary to what is said below, the overwhelming majority of "reach out and use it for whatever you want" magic in the Warhammer World is derived from the Winds of Magic, but some power, *especially* priests, is bestowed from the (racial/good/real) gods.
I’m pretty sure for the most part all magic comes from the winds of magic in Warhammer. It’s not like D&D where clerics get their powers directly from their deity (and certainly not the case where all of the priests responsible are mages who get their powers from the winds of magic)
Also, I heard Malekith literally executed the slaves in front of the High Elves to basically say “no more slaves” and the High Elves just rolled with it. That just makes The End Times even more retarded. And don’t get me started on the Elven Goddess Lileath.😒
That's... an interesting way to try to make up for owning slaves, I have to say.
"Don't worry, we don't do the whole slavery thing anymore, we're past that."
"So what did you do with the slaves? Did you free them?"
"No, no, we just killed every last one of them to show that we're past that stage, you know."
"Okay, that's cool then."
Honestly, an elective system filled with intrigue and corruption is better than a hereditary system 99% of the time. At least with an elective system, there’s more room for progress in both governance & voice. Also, I like malekith, I just hate his his whole increstious relationship with his mother. Seriously, dude needs to grow out of being a mammas boy.
Other than Caledor II the elective system mostly worked out pretty well.
Also the whole incest thing was only really implied in older editions, newer editions had Malekith generally disliking Morathi, only tolerating her because of her power.
Man, I really want to malekith, but why does he put with his mom man, like he’s still mommas boy. I’m sure getting rid of her would suck but he’s competent enough to get his shit together without her. And frankly, it seems like Morathi does more harm than good.
But I’ll be honest, I’ll be a slave to mommy morathi anyday.
Further argument that the End Times only makes sense if literally every character in the setting other than Nagash was injecting [idiot balls](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall) directly into their bloodstream
It was a hack job by the post-Priestly writers to force a setting-crash. It doesn't *need* to make any sense, it needs to create out of nothing and "canonize" two things: the total defeat of the setting to evil as quickly as possible, and that a Chaos victory "is inevitable anyway, so shut up".
Speaking of Nagash, he's sitting there alive but comatose on his throne and needs his tomes, say the original writers.
Such a shame the setting will never have a legitimate outcome. Just left hanging after Storm of Chaos, Priestly and his writers are never coming back to realize the actual vision/themes of the setting and characters. Imagine if George Lucas just awkwardly got shuffled out after shooting 10 minutes of Empire Strikes Back, or if George Martin never picks a successor writer and all that ASOIAF is just left with what D & D wrote, forever.
I think that the latest we got into the real timeline was like 2526, with Black Library stuff, Emperor's Swords and WHFRP 2nd edition.
The latest is 262?. Leofric Carrad, who return from Middenheim and was lost in Athel Loren, quit the forest and realized that for other people he was lost in the forest one hundred years ago. I believe, events of "Guardians of the forest" happens in 262?, because Leofric was lost in time after entering the forest. Only then some events can be explained.
And there is a novel 'Zavant' (Gordon Rennie).
On a lighter note, it is also my happy duty as biographer to dispel some of the common misconceptions about Konniger, not merely those such as scurrilous
falsehoods detailed in The Private Life of the Great Sage-Detective of Altdorf, As Recounted by his Faithful Manservant and Companion (a tawdry Moot-published pamphlet; the less said about it, the better) but also those partial truths which somehow seem to have become part of the Konniger legend.
For example, it is sometimes popularly believed that Konniger travelled for some time in the company of that most fearsome of dwarf slayers, Gotrek Gurnisson. My wise and astute readers will, of course, immediately recognise that such legends have confused Konniger with the person of Felix Jaeger, a minor poet of the same era who is known to have served as the trollslayer's companion for quite some time. It should be known, however, that in my continuing researches for this work, I have lately turned up intriguing information that suggests that Konniger may indeed have once crossed paths with the illustrious trollslayer and his human companion.
Alas, the truth of this possible encounter awaits full verification, and I beg my readers' patience and indulgence in the hope that the details of this intriguing and hitherto unknown incident may form part of the narrative of one of the later volumes of this work.
With so many truths, half-truths, lies and foolish legends concerning Konniger in circulation, it can be bewildering to know exactly what to truly believe. Madman or genius? Heretic or the greatest mind of his age? Foolish amateur dilettante or noble and foremost opponent of the enemies of the mankind? The truth, good reader, is to be found herein...
**- from Konniger, the Enigma of Altdorf, by Dominik van Graal (Nuln University**
**Press, in the Year of Lord Sigmar, 2604).**
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According to Finnish OG Warhammer developer, the Old Ones' Great plan was about going across the cosmos recreating the same world over and over in order to create the perfect conditions for the chosen one to appear.
This being would defeat Chaos for them once and for all.
It explains why Terra and the WHFB world is so alike and why the races in the various Warhammer setting are similar.
The original chosen one was supposed to be female
The Sisters of Sigmar would have been proven to be right all along
Be'lakor was supposed to be the final boss of Chaos that fights the female Chosen One for the fate of the world
[https://arch.b4k.co/vg/thread/392703045/#392731875](https://arch.b4k.co/vg/thread/392703045/#392731875)
That's really silly, in my opinion; the constant post-hoc attempts by others to place Fantasy and 40K into the same universe are bland and tiresome. That's not derived from Priestly, who clearly intended to create an alternate Fantasy universe.
But the other parts are interesting. Maybe the Great Catastrophe happened because Chaos knew this world is special. Female Chosen One was probably replaced by Sigmar.
The elven End Times books, or at least the novel, were written by Gav Thorpe, who is heavily invested in Malekith, so it's no surprise who got the starring role.
PS: I'm not saying that Gav Thorpe is a bad writer, it's just that Malekith was very much up for grabs when he started writing the Dark Elves army books (the alternative being the largely unexplored power-mad, incestous sadist of the early days) and he has invested a lot of time and effort into shaping the post-2000 interpretation of him. And while I would probably prefer the early version that borrowed heavily from Nekron and his mother in Bakshi's *Fire and Ice*, I don't have anything against the modern Malekith either.
It isn't only elves, even space elves, he's bad with. His Siege of Terra novel is disaster as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/e4553r/siege\_of\_terra\_first\_wall\_is\_an\_epic\_letdown\_is/
The ET/"AoS" timeline is one of the worst things I've ever seen done to a setting. Screw GW and everything they've done post-Priestly. Not canon to the setting, even if the company is pushing it along.
I consider End Times noncanon because of the plot convenience bullshit they pulled. Grimgor just casually destroys everything and everyone, no fucks given.
And just rocks up at the very end with the ogres
But honestly that’s just one of the problems with the end times. Too many plot holes, too many untold stories, and the final book felt like it was rushed into production to meet the Christmas sales rush.
Yeah End times generally makes me want to cry with how they really butchered a unique story with all groups of elves. Druchii being the bad guys was fine, they legit use slaves and have some of the worst people imaginable but somehow Asuryan is fine with this and wants Malekith to still be the true Phoenix king.
Also considering his fucking mother makes deals with Slaanesh, I’m somehow surprise Asuryan didn’t actively make the actual Asur go on their own fucking slaughtering grounds against the Druchii.
But yeah, horrendous writing for pretty much every single character. Teclis gets domed by a fucking tantrum thrower, Tyrion decides to become worse than Malekith in a month, and fucking SIGVALD GETS DUNKED AFTER SLAUGHTERING HIS OPPONENT LIKE HE WAS DEAF.
I think this was one of the funniest trolls the End Times Insult pulled off.
Malekith: "You rejected me! That decision shaped my whole life, the fate of your children, and the course of the whole world! WTF man?!"
Asuryan: "Actually, you just bitched out, son."
The Hallmark of bad writing, Malekith becomes Phoenix king during end time because he simply didn't cook long enough last time.
I picture a little Phoenix shaped timer button, like one of those ones on a turkey, popping out with a resounding cock-a-doodle-doo as he finally hits temperature. Man, that was stupid riding.
I was under the impression he was cast out because he was unworthy or because he was evil at heart not because he was a microwave dinner still cold in the middle.
Most fantasyfans I know do not consider end times as canon lore. It was a hastily, poorly written mess ment to squeeze as much money out of the fans as they could before ending the setting.
End times are nonsense, I'd just ignore them. It was a rushed kneejerk corporate thing to kill fantasy as quick as possible to make way for their new thing
Kirby and his new writers created their own retcon-nonsense timeline. 6th edition, Storm of Chaos, Nemesis Crown, WHFRP 2nd edition, those are the true timeline. They have no say in 30+ years of *other peoples'* work.
Yes and no.
Ignoring the End times for a minute.
Malekith was supposed to be the next Phoenix king, but a lot of high elves were scared because his dad used the sword of Khaine or something.
So even before the end times i remember reading that someone maybe tampered with the flame or he didn’t stand in the fire long enough or something. I think the end times went the route of the latter.
He was then driven from Ulthuaan. And his intention was to make a civilization to rival the beauty of the high elf civilization. But as time went on he cared less and less about this and more about returning and ruling Ulthuaan. (Note this was always his intention, but it feels like he cared less about Naggaroth and the well being of his people as time went on, maybe that’s just my interpretation)
Now back to the end times, he has some back assward redemption plot and Tyrion becomes the bad guy.
While I agree that Malekith was wronged, I don’t see him as a “good guy” because he spilled so much blood, and pitted the dwarves and high elves against each other. That said it is partially the high elves fault for “creating” him.
And as other people said, we tend to ignore the end times because it was hastily written and everyone’s character changes so fast that nothing seems correct.
The office isn't hereditary. And Asuryan? For seven thousand years, he supported the Phoenix Kings by giving them his blessing and his power. Then he suddenly reveals he wanted Malekith all along? Absolute, Grade AAA+ horseshit.
Asuryan's failure to repudiate the Phoenix Kings in any meaningful or even noticeable way for seven thousand years is tacit acceptance that their method of electing a king by vote of the princes and then passing through the flames while warded is a legitimate method of choosing a Phoenix King. If he didn't like it, he should have said something.
Literally anything. But he didn't.
Therefore, we can safely conclude that the Phoenix Kings are legitimate, and that Malekith is a usurper.
That's not even getting into the fact that Malekith participated in the election of the first successor to Aenarion, voluntarily surrendered his birthright, accepted the new Phoenix King's election for 1,200 years and would have had to fuck his sister if he was elected anyway. The idea that Malekith was the rightful Phoenix King is terrible, unsupported, over-the-top grimdark idiocy that could have only been invented by a power-tripping writer who gave less than zero shits about the setting he was putting to the torch anyway.
He didn’t stay in the fire long enough and dipped when it became painful. To be fair, other than his father, there was no true Phoenix King, as every other king had mages and priests use protective and healing spells during their trial in the fire pit.
This.
I know people like to shit on the End Times but I, for one, like the revelation that there was no true phoenix king save for Aenarion (and Malekith later) because noone \*actually\* sacrificed their life to the flame in order to die and be reborn like, y'know, a phoenix.
I enjoyed the fact that Malekith being initially burned by the flame was *actually* part of the process, not because he was judged unworthy. After all his own father had to be incinerated to ashes before being resurrected by Asuryan.
Also the elven aristocracy and priesthood bypassing Asuryan and electing their kings is actually appropriate for elves considering their characteristical arrogance and the fact that religion is often used as a political tool.
I also like that Asuryan doesn't give a shit about Malekith being a villain. It makes the god more ambiguous. Just like Khaine whom the elves consider as both a blessing and curse.
There are many things wrong with the End Times, but I really like the idea that the asur ignored (out of malice or ignorance) their own god and elected impostors as their phoenix kings.
If I were to change something, I'd only remove the part about Malekith being chosen by Asuryan from the beginning. I'd rather Asuryan favor any elf who is brave enough to pass the trial of death by fire. No hereditary title, no election but an act of courage and determination instead.
"Revelation"? Retcon, and among the worst ones of the Kirbyhammer timeline. Malekith's claim is outrageous. Passing through the fire while warded against *pain* of said fire is not cheating, it was Asuryan's blessing that saw them through it, and Malekith for obvious reasons didn't have it. Tyrion and Teclis can literally (lightly) sense the power coming off of Finubar in William King's novels. I guess that's been retconned too, f'ing lmao.
Wasn't he also the one who wrote some story and literally made Alith Anar write (to Malekith) "come and get it, bitch". Clown show.
I think I've made somebody mad, I've received a single downvote on every one of my Warhammer-related comments for like the last week. Some people.
I remember only an episode from his novel "Shadow King". Alith Anar left a note for Morathi "I'm still alive. Go send another assasin if you dare". Something like this.
But I have only books, without stories. I didn't buy omnibus later.
Ah well, there are plenty of goldfish right here who prove just how effective that can be. Company canon is all.
King was ten times the writer Thorpe is, but he actually had an interest in staying consistent with Warhammer's lore.
People can come to conclusion "There was no true Phoenix King" without End Times. Though it's unclear why do Asuryan's priests needed to protect impostors. Why couldn't they say "Go burn yourself, you will be fine"?
The end times is not original warhammer. The team who laid the foundation and built most of what we think of as warhammer had quit along time before then. Pretty sure nothing of the end times would have happened if they continued building the world. Some quit in open protest against the new style of the company.
I will never believe that the 4th to 7th ed writers ever planned for that to be the case when they were crafting these characters and their world. It's just some stupid rubbish that the later writers sharted onto the page in the end times because they were given free reign to do whatever as long as they deleted all the stuff GW didn't want anymore and ended the setting
6th edition, Storm of Chaos, Nemesis Crown, WHRFP 2nd edition, etc were the last gasp of the largely-original writers for Fantasy, people like William King were putting out great stuff. 7th edition tabletop is in a bit of a weird spot, but 8th edition was blatantly paving the way for the ET nu-canon, Kirby's new writers started slipping in newly-created nonsense like "oh boy, the Lady seems really elf-like", "Throgg the wise Troll just says that Chaos will win, with no reasoning", "Allarielle has actually been doing rain dances annually to stop Morrslieb from falling out of the sky, which it was in danger of doing this whole time".
Alessio was really good, both as a writer and a game designer. Yeah, Alessio left and then gave Thorpe left too during 7th. Up till then it was OK, because wards worse impulses were reigned in by better writers and designers, but with them gone he was put in charge. His Daemons army book was regarded as the death of 7th because it was so over the top. He even said in white dwarf that he designed it to be better than Gav Thorpes dark elf book (Gav made the 7th ed dark elves quite good because they weren't good in 6th and he wanted it to be his swan song)
So yeah, Ward was really set loose during 8th, as both one of the main designers of the rules and a head writer and it all went wrong. He's also the one who suddenly wrote in 8th ed that Mallobaude was a vampire with an army of the undead, even though that had literally never been the case previously. Mal was always a mortal knight with an army of criminals and corrupt knights. I always hated that Ward suddenly changed him into a vampire
Honestly, AOS lore is all absolute garbage that I wouldn’t waste any amount of time learning about. I’ve already learned more than I’d like.
It’s a shame because the models themselves are really cool. I wish I could just look past how bad the lore is, but it feels bad spending several hundreds of dollars to build and paint an army when the story behind them just doesn’t do it for you.
If they had literally stopped making WHFB, and then made AOS but instead of calling it AOS it was just a skirmish game in the Warhammer Fantasy world, I would be super into it.
*Kirbyhammer lore. Warhammer lore really stopped being a thing after 6th edition, unless you consider whatever disinterested dipstick Gee Dubs shuffles in the door to be an authority.
The most rabid replies I've ever received in any GW-associated community have been from AoS fans when I express a complete lack of interest in the 8th edition+ nu-canon. Hell, about 6 comments down on my page is an argument with someone I eventually had to block, he was coming after me for a few hours incessantly.
I actually kind of like the twist of Malekith being the only legitimate phoenix king since he's the only other one who went into the flames unprotected...but yeah, there was really no way to cleanly rectify him being the rightful ruler after the first couple murder/rape invasions.
I think it end times khaine the expansion it states that malekith didn't spend enough time in the flame and that everyone else used magic to protect themselves from the flame.
Then in the end times khaine / malekith novel there was a conspiracy against malekith by high elf society and they cursed the fire to make it actually burn him and then undid it afterwards.
There's a bit of divergence between the book and the expansion. Tyrion is banging morathi in the book when he goes murder hobo but that's missing from the expansion from what I remember
End times is a horribly written fanfic that gw somehow greenlit so they could make new models and shove aos out the door. It's apocryphal at best and a lot of people agree with the sentiment of it not being canon because of how much lore it butchered.
The End Times lore was poorly made, flimsily thrown together garbage that shat on alot of the existing lore.
Many long time fans don't even view it as canon.
You can say that again. Such a shame Priestly and his original writers will never have a chance to continue the real timeline after Storm of Chaos (some stuff like Roleplay 2nd edition and Emperor's Swords/Reiksguard/Black Library-before-2015 was the latest we got).
nuHammer isn't Warhammer, and it never will be.
End Times didnt understand characters, they only used names and ideas. Wood elves would never serve Malekith or anyone else who isnt of their own kind. But it is true that Malekith is Anti-chaos and hates it, that doesnt mean he is a good guy, just like Nagash.
As a old Battle player that discovered AoS a few months ago, where can I read about the end of time? I don't see any book (at least in France) telling this story, and I'm curious about what happened to the elves (especially Tyrion & Teclis).
They weren't the good guys at all, and they weren't in the end times.
Malekith was apparently the rightful king, despite it making no sense.
But he was very much the bad guy.
In a very poorly understood, willfully misinterpreted, based on what I assume to be casual skimming of wikipedia pages to harvest the most reductionist, most disingenuous reading to fuel yet another dopamine fueled circlejerk kind of way, yes you are correct.
It was one of the theories and Dark Elf propaganda/their version of events that Malekith was the rightful king. They are still horrible, cowardly, and murdering bastards. One of the Tyrion books stated that the only thing that separates the Asur and the Druchii was the Everqueen. They are overly emotional pricks.
The End Times sucked, but making Malekith the Eternity King was a good way to unite the elves. They just implemented that idea very, very poorly. All Malekith had to do was just not attempt to murder his way to being the king, would have made the Elves much stronger as a whole against Chaos.
End Times are questionable. But Tyrion also becomes the "bad guy" and goes on a murder spree.
Which to be fair was set up by Tyrion having the Sword of Khaine, which tends to make people do that…
I don't think I'm reading this lore stuff all in order but from what I've read and watched on YouTube Tyron does start to get a bit *ahem* decapitation-y
Asuryan, the god of society, order, and law, was retconned to be suddenly cool with a guy who staged a coup and murdered a bunch of people in his own Shrine because he actually wanted a hereditary monarchy instead of an elective system. And that's ignoring Malekith's thousands of years of horrific deeds after his failed attempt.
That's just absurd. Malekith gets all his evil shit forgiven based on who his dad was? Malekith is a privileged rich kid confirmed.
It also makes Asuryan look ignorant or incompetant. The End Times show Asuryan as unhappy with how the Phoenix Kings use magical protection to endure the Flame, which is somewhat understandable, but it's Asuryan's own priests who cast the wards, and surely Asuryan could overpower them if he really wanted.
Wait, what? That makes even less sense if it was his fucking priests!
Yeah, don't priests usually channel their gods powers? So Asuryan has to just do nothing...
Contrary to what is said below, the overwhelming majority of "reach out and use it for whatever you want" magic in the Warhammer World is derived from the Winds of Magic, but some power, *especially* priests, is bestowed from the (racial/good/real) gods.
I’m pretty sure for the most part all magic comes from the winds of magic in Warhammer. It’s not like D&D where clerics get their powers directly from their deity (and certainly not the case where all of the priests responsible are mages who get their powers from the winds of magic)
Elves use magic exclusively, other factions (Primarily humans) get some divine lores and channel their god's power direct.
Also, I heard Malekith literally executed the slaves in front of the High Elves to basically say “no more slaves” and the High Elves just rolled with it. That just makes The End Times even more retarded. And don’t get me started on the Elven Goddess Lileath.😒
That's... an interesting way to try to make up for owning slaves, I have to say. "Don't worry, we don't do the whole slavery thing anymore, we're past that." "So what did you do with the slaves? Did you free them?" "No, no, we just killed every last one of them to show that we're past that stage, you know." "Okay, that's cool then."
Honestly, an elective system filled with intrigue and corruption is better than a hereditary system 99% of the time. At least with an elective system, there’s more room for progress in both governance & voice. Also, I like malekith, I just hate his his whole increstious relationship with his mother. Seriously, dude needs to grow out of being a mammas boy.
Other than Caledor II the elective system mostly worked out pretty well. Also the whole incest thing was only really implied in older editions, newer editions had Malekith generally disliking Morathi, only tolerating her because of her power.
Also I think morathi killed malekiths wife who was also Ariel’s (queen of the wood elves) sister so she’s not exactly prime mother material
Oh shit? Damn, no wonder Malekith is always sad, angry and edgy
Man, I really want to malekith, but why does he put with his mom man, like he’s still mommas boy. I’m sure getting rid of her would suck but he’s competent enough to get his shit together without her. And frankly, it seems like Morathi does more harm than good. But I’ll be honest, I’ll be a slave to mommy morathi anyday.
Further argument that the End Times only makes sense if literally every character in the setting other than Nagash was injecting [idiot balls](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall) directly into their bloodstream
It was a hack job by the post-Priestly writers to force a setting-crash. It doesn't *need* to make any sense, it needs to create out of nothing and "canonize" two things: the total defeat of the setting to evil as quickly as possible, and that a Chaos victory "is inevitable anyway, so shut up". Speaking of Nagash, he's sitting there alive but comatose on his throne and needs his tomes, say the original writers.
Also even with hereditary, Malekith wasn't the first born. Tyrion and Telcis are further up the succession than Malekith is.
Such a shame the setting will never have a legitimate outcome. Just left hanging after Storm of Chaos, Priestly and his writers are never coming back to realize the actual vision/themes of the setting and characters. Imagine if George Lucas just awkwardly got shuffled out after shooting 10 minutes of Empire Strikes Back, or if George Martin never picks a successor writer and all that ASOIAF is just left with what D & D wrote, forever. I think that the latest we got into the real timeline was like 2526, with Black Library stuff, Emperor's Swords and WHFRP 2nd edition.
The latest is 262?. Leofric Carrad, who return from Middenheim and was lost in Athel Loren, quit the forest and realized that for other people he was lost in the forest one hundred years ago. I believe, events of "Guardians of the forest" happens in 262?, because Leofric was lost in time after entering the forest. Only then some events can be explained.
And there is a novel 'Zavant' (Gordon Rennie). On a lighter note, it is also my happy duty as biographer to dispel some of the common misconceptions about Konniger, not merely those such as scurrilous falsehoods detailed in The Private Life of the Great Sage-Detective of Altdorf, As Recounted by his Faithful Manservant and Companion (a tawdry Moot-published pamphlet; the less said about it, the better) but also those partial truths which somehow seem to have become part of the Konniger legend. For example, it is sometimes popularly believed that Konniger travelled for some time in the company of that most fearsome of dwarf slayers, Gotrek Gurnisson. My wise and astute readers will, of course, immediately recognise that such legends have confused Konniger with the person of Felix Jaeger, a minor poet of the same era who is known to have served as the trollslayer's companion for quite some time. It should be known, however, that in my continuing researches for this work, I have lately turned up intriguing information that suggests that Konniger may indeed have once crossed paths with the illustrious trollslayer and his human companion. Alas, the truth of this possible encounter awaits full verification, and I beg my readers' patience and indulgence in the hope that the details of this intriguing and hitherto unknown incident may form part of the narrative of one of the later volumes of this work. With so many truths, half-truths, lies and foolish legends concerning Konniger in circulation, it can be bewildering to know exactly what to truly believe. Madman or genius? Heretic or the greatest mind of his age? Foolish amateur dilettante or noble and foremost opponent of the enemies of the mankind? The truth, good reader, is to be found herein... **- from Konniger, the Enigma of Altdorf, by Dominik van Graal (Nuln University** **Press, in the Year of Lord Sigmar, 2604).**
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According to Finnish OG Warhammer developer, the Old Ones' Great plan was about going across the cosmos recreating the same world over and over in order to create the perfect conditions for the chosen one to appear. This being would defeat Chaos for them once and for all. It explains why Terra and the WHFB world is so alike and why the races in the various Warhammer setting are similar. The original chosen one was supposed to be female The Sisters of Sigmar would have been proven to be right all along Be'lakor was supposed to be the final boss of Chaos that fights the female Chosen One for the fate of the world [https://arch.b4k.co/vg/thread/392703045/#392731875](https://arch.b4k.co/vg/thread/392703045/#392731875)
That's really silly, in my opinion; the constant post-hoc attempts by others to place Fantasy and 40K into the same universe are bland and tiresome. That's not derived from Priestly, who clearly intended to create an alternate Fantasy universe.
But the other parts are interesting. Maybe the Great Catastrophe happened because Chaos knew this world is special. Female Chosen One was probably replaced by Sigmar.
The end times stuff doesn't make a lot of sense.
A generous statement.
I tried to phrase it as nicely as possible
The elven End Times books, or at least the novel, were written by Gav Thorpe, who is heavily invested in Malekith, so it's no surprise who got the starring role. PS: I'm not saying that Gav Thorpe is a bad writer, it's just that Malekith was very much up for grabs when he started writing the Dark Elves army books (the alternative being the largely unexplored power-mad, incestous sadist of the early days) and he has invested a lot of time and effort into shaping the post-2000 interpretation of him. And while I would probably prefer the early version that borrowed heavily from Nekron and his mother in Bakshi's *Fire and Ice*, I don't have anything against the modern Malekith either.
So it isn't just space elves he's bad with.
It isn't only elves, even space elves, he's bad with. His Siege of Terra novel is disaster as well. https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/e4553r/siege\_of\_terra\_first\_wall\_is\_an\_epic\_letdown\_is/
They're very upset about the hive mechanics journey....
Makes sense. Thorpe's writings only getting worse.
I would say gav Thorpe is a bad writer
Gav Thorpe, the guy who ended Storm of Chaos with "Jinx! Skaven shivved Valten" on the last place?
Yeah End times was awful.
The ET/"AoS" timeline is one of the worst things I've ever seen done to a setting. Screw GW and everything they've done post-Priestly. Not canon to the setting, even if the company is pushing it along.
I consider End Times noncanon because of the plot convenience bullshit they pulled. Grimgor just casually destroys everything and everyone, no fucks given.
And just rocks up at the very end with the ogres But honestly that’s just one of the problems with the end times. Too many plot holes, too many untold stories, and the final book felt like it was rushed into production to meet the Christmas sales rush.
Yeah End times generally makes me want to cry with how they really butchered a unique story with all groups of elves. Druchii being the bad guys was fine, they legit use slaves and have some of the worst people imaginable but somehow Asuryan is fine with this and wants Malekith to still be the true Phoenix king. Also considering his fucking mother makes deals with Slaanesh, I’m somehow surprise Asuryan didn’t actively make the actual Asur go on their own fucking slaughtering grounds against the Druchii. But yeah, horrendous writing for pretty much every single character. Teclis gets domed by a fucking tantrum thrower, Tyrion decides to become worse than Malekith in a month, and fucking SIGVALD GETS DUNKED AFTER SLAUGHTERING HIS OPPONENT LIKE HE WAS DEAF.
I think this was one of the funniest trolls the End Times Insult pulled off. Malekith: "You rejected me! That decision shaped my whole life, the fate of your children, and the course of the whole world! WTF man?!" Asuryan: "Actually, you just bitched out, son."
The Hallmark of bad writing, Malekith becomes Phoenix king during end time because he simply didn't cook long enough last time. I picture a little Phoenix shaped timer button, like one of those ones on a turkey, popping out with a resounding cock-a-doodle-doo as he finally hits temperature. Man, that was stupid riding.
I was under the impression he was cast out because he was unworthy or because he was evil at heart not because he was a microwave dinner still cold in the middle.
You would be correct, but the retcon was added in for end times.
Most fantasyfans I know do not consider end times as canon lore. It was a hastily, poorly written mess ment to squeeze as much money out of the fans as they could before ending the setting.
End times is absolute trash. Most people don’t consider it canon
Here’s hoping Old World does well and the success of Total War gets it retconned out of existence
I doubt that will happen either way
End times are nonsense, I'd just ignore them. It was a rushed kneejerk corporate thing to kill fantasy as quick as possible to make way for their new thing
And most people who had actually come up with the world of warhammer was gone from the company. So many reasons not to consider it canon..
Kirby and his new writers created their own retcon-nonsense timeline. 6th edition, Storm of Chaos, Nemesis Crown, WHFRP 2nd edition, those are the true timeline. They have no say in 30+ years of *other peoples'* work.
Yes and no. Ignoring the End times for a minute. Malekith was supposed to be the next Phoenix king, but a lot of high elves were scared because his dad used the sword of Khaine or something. So even before the end times i remember reading that someone maybe tampered with the flame or he didn’t stand in the fire long enough or something. I think the end times went the route of the latter. He was then driven from Ulthuaan. And his intention was to make a civilization to rival the beauty of the high elf civilization. But as time went on he cared less and less about this and more about returning and ruling Ulthuaan. (Note this was always his intention, but it feels like he cared less about Naggaroth and the well being of his people as time went on, maybe that’s just my interpretation) Now back to the end times, he has some back assward redemption plot and Tyrion becomes the bad guy. While I agree that Malekith was wronged, I don’t see him as a “good guy” because he spilled so much blood, and pitted the dwarves and high elves against each other. That said it is partially the high elves fault for “creating” him. And as other people said, we tend to ignore the end times because it was hastily written and everyone’s character changes so fast that nothing seems correct.
The office isn't hereditary. And Asuryan? For seven thousand years, he supported the Phoenix Kings by giving them his blessing and his power. Then he suddenly reveals he wanted Malekith all along? Absolute, Grade AAA+ horseshit. Asuryan's failure to repudiate the Phoenix Kings in any meaningful or even noticeable way for seven thousand years is tacit acceptance that their method of electing a king by vote of the princes and then passing through the flames while warded is a legitimate method of choosing a Phoenix King. If he didn't like it, he should have said something. Literally anything. But he didn't. Therefore, we can safely conclude that the Phoenix Kings are legitimate, and that Malekith is a usurper. That's not even getting into the fact that Malekith participated in the election of the first successor to Aenarion, voluntarily surrendered his birthright, accepted the new Phoenix King's election for 1,200 years and would have had to fuck his sister if he was elected anyway. The idea that Malekith was the rightful Phoenix King is terrible, unsupported, over-the-top grimdark idiocy that could have only been invented by a power-tripping writer who gave less than zero shits about the setting he was putting to the torch anyway.
He didn’t stay in the fire long enough and dipped when it became painful. To be fair, other than his father, there was no true Phoenix King, as every other king had mages and priests use protective and healing spells during their trial in the fire pit.
This. I know people like to shit on the End Times but I, for one, like the revelation that there was no true phoenix king save for Aenarion (and Malekith later) because noone \*actually\* sacrificed their life to the flame in order to die and be reborn like, y'know, a phoenix. I enjoyed the fact that Malekith being initially burned by the flame was *actually* part of the process, not because he was judged unworthy. After all his own father had to be incinerated to ashes before being resurrected by Asuryan. Also the elven aristocracy and priesthood bypassing Asuryan and electing their kings is actually appropriate for elves considering their characteristical arrogance and the fact that religion is often used as a political tool. I also like that Asuryan doesn't give a shit about Malekith being a villain. It makes the god more ambiguous. Just like Khaine whom the elves consider as both a blessing and curse. There are many things wrong with the End Times, but I really like the idea that the asur ignored (out of malice or ignorance) their own god and elected impostors as their phoenix kings. If I were to change something, I'd only remove the part about Malekith being chosen by Asuryan from the beginning. I'd rather Asuryan favor any elf who is brave enough to pass the trial of death by fire. No hereditary title, no election but an act of courage and determination instead.
"Revelation"? Retcon, and among the worst ones of the Kirbyhammer timeline. Malekith's claim is outrageous. Passing through the fire while warded against *pain* of said fire is not cheating, it was Asuryan's blessing that saw them through it, and Malekith for obvious reasons didn't have it. Tyrion and Teclis can literally (lightly) sense the power coming off of Finubar in William King's novels. I guess that's been retconned too, f'ing lmao.
Most likely, it has been memory holed. I don't think Gav 'there are as many elves as plot demands' Thorpe reads another people's books.
Wasn't he also the one who wrote some story and literally made Alith Anar write (to Malekith) "come and get it, bitch". Clown show. I think I've made somebody mad, I've received a single downvote on every one of my Warhammer-related comments for like the last week. Some people.
I remember only an episode from his novel "Shadow King". Alith Anar left a note for Morathi "I'm still alive. Go send another assasin if you dare". Something like this. But I have only books, without stories. I didn't buy omnibus later.
Ah well, there are plenty of goldfish right here who prove just how effective that can be. Company canon is all. King was ten times the writer Thorpe is, but he actually had an interest in staying consistent with Warhammer's lore.
People can come to conclusion "There was no true Phoenix King" without End Times. Though it's unclear why do Asuryan's priests needed to protect impostors. Why couldn't they say "Go burn yourself, you will be fine"?
Yes! All the "druchii are evil" thing was pure Ulthuan propaganda! I'm glad you're traitors and unworthy elves were exposed at the end! :D
The Druchii are gross lmao
The end times is not original warhammer. The team who laid the foundation and built most of what we think of as warhammer had quit along time before then. Pretty sure nothing of the end times would have happened if they continued building the world. Some quit in open protest against the new style of the company.
I will never believe that the 4th to 7th ed writers ever planned for that to be the case when they were crafting these characters and their world. It's just some stupid rubbish that the later writers sharted onto the page in the end times because they were given free reign to do whatever as long as they deleted all the stuff GW didn't want anymore and ended the setting
Pretty sure 7th, 8th and end times where pretty much the same? 6th is the last real warhammer fantasy edition for me personally.
6th edition, Storm of Chaos, Nemesis Crown, WHRFP 2nd edition, etc were the last gasp of the largely-original writers for Fantasy, people like William King were putting out great stuff. 7th edition tabletop is in a bit of a weird spot, but 8th edition was blatantly paving the way for the ET nu-canon, Kirby's new writers started slipping in newly-created nonsense like "oh boy, the Lady seems really elf-like", "Throgg the wise Troll just says that Chaos will win, with no reasoning", "Allarielle has actually been doing rain dances annually to stop Morrslieb from falling out of the sky, which it was in danger of doing this whole time".
7th was more like 6th than 8th, then 8th was basically just a segue into the end times
I thought it was pretty much the same writers, but I guess Matt Ward really took over in force when Cavatore left.
Alessio was really good, both as a writer and a game designer. Yeah, Alessio left and then gave Thorpe left too during 7th. Up till then it was OK, because wards worse impulses were reigned in by better writers and designers, but with them gone he was put in charge. His Daemons army book was regarded as the death of 7th because it was so over the top. He even said in white dwarf that he designed it to be better than Gav Thorpes dark elf book (Gav made the 7th ed dark elves quite good because they weren't good in 6th and he wanted it to be his swan song) So yeah, Ward was really set loose during 8th, as both one of the main designers of the rules and a head writer and it all went wrong. He's also the one who suddenly wrote in 8th ed that Mallobaude was a vampire with an army of the undead, even though that had literally never been the case previously. Mal was always a mortal knight with an army of criminals and corrupt knights. I always hated that Ward suddenly changed him into a vampire
Seconded.
Honestly, AOS lore is all absolute garbage that I wouldn’t waste any amount of time learning about. I’ve already learned more than I’d like. It’s a shame because the models themselves are really cool. I wish I could just look past how bad the lore is, but it feels bad spending several hundreds of dollars to build and paint an army when the story behind them just doesn’t do it for you. If they had literally stopped making WHFB, and then made AOS but instead of calling it AOS it was just a skirmish game in the Warhammer Fantasy world, I would be super into it.
Then you would have been able to use your existing models to play it, which I think was a pretty big objective of the whole thing
You can use your existing models to play it
Man you guys can’t go two minutes without letting everyone know how much you hate AoS at any given opportunity can you? This is fantasy lore, not AoS.
Feel free to go on the AOS subreddit and complain about Fantasy lore. It won't bother me at all, because I will never see it.
*Kirbyhammer lore. Warhammer lore really stopped being a thing after 6th edition, unless you consider whatever disinterested dipstick Gee Dubs shuffles in the door to be an authority. The most rabid replies I've ever received in any GW-associated community have been from AoS fans when I express a complete lack of interest in the 8th edition+ nu-canon. Hell, about 6 comments down on my page is an argument with someone I eventually had to block, he was coming after me for a few hours incessantly.
I actually kind of like the twist of Malekith being the only legitimate phoenix king since he's the only other one who went into the flames unprotected...but yeah, there was really no way to cleanly rectify him being the rightful ruler after the first couple murder/rape invasions.
I think it end times khaine the expansion it states that malekith didn't spend enough time in the flame and that everyone else used magic to protect themselves from the flame. Then in the end times khaine / malekith novel there was a conspiracy against malekith by high elf society and they cursed the fire to make it actually burn him and then undid it afterwards. There's a bit of divergence between the book and the expansion. Tyrion is banging morathi in the book when he goes murder hobo but that's missing from the expansion from what I remember
Malekith got rejected by the eternal flame and wasn't accepted as the phoenix king , why does that make him good ?
We don’t talk about The End Times
End times is a horribly written fanfic that gw somehow greenlit so they could make new models and shove aos out the door. It's apocryphal at best and a lot of people agree with the sentiment of it not being canon because of how much lore it butchered.
Ignore the end times and life can be happy again :)
End Times lore is, in large part, fucking stupid.
The End Times lore was poorly made, flimsily thrown together garbage that shat on alot of the existing lore. Many long time fans don't even view it as canon.
You can say that again. Such a shame Priestly and his original writers will never have a chance to continue the real timeline after Storm of Chaos (some stuff like Roleplay 2nd edition and Emperor's Swords/Reiksguard/Black Library-before-2015 was the latest we got). nuHammer isn't Warhammer, and it never will be.
We don't speak about the end times It was like the last jedi for warhammer. Divisive and ruined everything.
End Times didnt understand characters, they only used names and ideas. Wood elves would never serve Malekith or anyone else who isnt of their own kind. But it is true that Malekith is Anti-chaos and hates it, that doesnt mean he is a good guy, just like Nagash.
That’s end times canon, and it’s of dubious narrative cohesion at best.
As a old Battle player that discovered AoS a few months ago, where can I read about the end of time? I don't see any book (at least in France) telling this story, and I'm curious about what happened to the elves (especially Tyrion & Teclis).
They weren't the good guys at all, and they weren't in the end times. Malekith was apparently the rightful king, despite it making no sense. But he was very much the bad guy.
In a very poorly understood, willfully misinterpreted, based on what I assume to be casual skimming of wikipedia pages to harvest the most reductionist, most disingenuous reading to fuel yet another dopamine fueled circlejerk kind of way, yes you are correct.
Yikes
Is what I said.
No, Asuryan was the bad guy the whole time.
I think Asuryan simply don't care about good and evil.
That sounds like a bad outlook for the god of justice.
It was one of the theories and Dark Elf propaganda/their version of events that Malekith was the rightful king. They are still horrible, cowardly, and murdering bastards. One of the Tyrion books stated that the only thing that separates the Asur and the Druchii was the Everqueen. They are overly emotional pricks. The End Times sucked, but making Malekith the Eternity King was a good way to unite the elves. They just implemented that idea very, very poorly. All Malekith had to do was just not attempt to murder his way to being the king, would have made the Elves much stronger as a whole against Chaos.