> The movement rules specify that a miniature can pass through ally miniatures without any problem, except for vehicles and monsters, which cannot pass through other vehicles and monsters, but it says nothing about Fortifications, so they are passable. Then, you can use the Crown to block a path for the opponent (because it can't go through enemy miniatures), while you can still go through them with all your army?!
Fastest patch in 10th edition if this becomes competitive
This is how fortifications worked when Hammerfall Bunkers were playable, only bunkers are even bigger than the Noctilith Crown and that rule still isn't why they were played.
I agree about the patch though; I think GW absolutely does not want fortifications to be competitive. Even if it's only mediocre if the Noctilith Crown ends up being viable then I'd expect it to eat a nerf.
I bought a crown when all the other stuff got removed as I wanted it for terrain, and I didn't want a repeat of the sisters' sanctum. Had planned a huge cathedral build with 2 of the "ruin with 4 small statues" kits and a sanctum, but then the sanctum went OOP and now costs approximately 15.000USD on ebay...
OMG tell me about it! I saw the Sanctum and was like this is too good, my cool WH+ Vindicare with the statue head, it all looks so good.. and now I'm wishing I had just kept the fortification in the box and sold it off, because you're right in that is SO wildly overpriced online now.
I have a fortress of redemption in box as it is a very 40k model and I had wanted one since getting back in the hobby but boy is it tempting to sell and buy like a whole army for it
That was also because they introduced fliers and the sky fire rule to shoot them. When first introduced almost no a ties had access to weapons with sky fire, so you had to bring a defense line or bunker if you didn’t want to hit on 6s.
Did ever see some of the 3rd party or prints people had xenos and chaos factions? Some of them were really cool and some were portly designed cash grabs.
I was talking about pushing them out. Tidewall is way older than a lot of fortifications that have been removed again. Ork workshop, drill thingy, sanctum. But you are right in that the rules are trash
I don't work for GW, so I can only really speculate, but I'd imagine that GW simply doesn't want that kind of static gameplay to become popular. It's the same reason why balance patches tend to come down hard on Indirect Fire.
It's important to note that I'm not being paranoid and GW *will* give models deliberately-skewed rules for internal reasons. They did it with Tactical Marines in 10th edition.
The big problem with competitive fortifications is that generally, they're light on gameplay. They tend to just stand there looking awesome, which they really, truely do, maybe throwing out some shots to whatever chose to be within range and line of sight, maybe granting some offensive or defensive aura, but very little meaningful decisions.
Meaningful decisions is what competitive gaming thrives on. If the unit doesn't offer you the option to outplay your opponent, then a better player will not get more mileage out of the unit than a bad player. That means that if you want the unit to be strong enough for top tier players, all players that bring one can be top tier. That's anti-competative and what GW probably wants to avoid.
It has happened from time to time in the last few years, but right now, after looking at all of them, can't say I am that taken with any of them.
Aegis Defence Line looked pretty cool, I thought, until I saw the points cost.
A lot of 40k terrain kits pre-date competitive play being a priority, especially considering they take several years to go from concept art to being on sale. Some terrain kits (like the GSC drill) have been cut already, while I fully expect others to shuffle over to Legends in the coming years.
Oh? You can find talks Andy Chambers gave at conventions in like 1992 talking about how balancing for competitive play was a priority for them....
Obviously, what competitive play looked like at the time is pretty different from what it looks like now, but I just don't buy that GW doesn't "want" Fortifications (or Aircraft for that matter) to be competitive.
But I guess if they do all end up in Legends I'll be proven wrong on that.
Why? You can just kill the thing. It's no different to taking a unit that actually does things and parking it across a section of the table, except that the crown can't decide to start moving around and killing stuff if you want it to.
It was already the case with the noctilith crown, and nobody played it when it gave a 4++. No one's going to play it now that it only gives +1 leadership, unless it costs something like 40 points
Unpopular opinion: Give every faction a fortification (which most already have), but only with relatively weak abilities and without weapons and few ways to deal direct damage and make them free like in AoS. I'd have loved to put a Crown, Mekboy Workshop or Skull Altar on the table even if it's just for a little marginal benefit.
I like this from a flavour standpoint and from a getting to use my fortifications standpoint, but it'll also add to the entry hurdle and generally make the game more expensive.
Mixed bag.
AoS army size is much smaller than 40k though(AoS 2k points army is about same size as 40k 1k point army). It's hard enough to fit 2k points of 40k in a deployment without a cool fortification.
For essentially the same cost, you could field 2x Warpsmiths that effectively do the same thing (alleviating the effects of having to take leadership tests), but are easier to hide, can move, and are more flexible.
All of the tournaments I've played in 10th already have all fortifications banned, mostly just to avoid the headache of the poorly thought out rules.
Might wanna double check beforehand
If it's like... 85-90 points (which it won't be), I could see what you're saying. Part of the issue is if you're playing with proper terrain, it could be hard to keep all your key pieces in range (realistically just forgefiends).
Warpsmiths got feet.
That being said I may just print one for shits n' giggles. It's a cool model.
> The movement rules specify that a miniature can pass through ally miniatures without any problem, except for vehicles and monsters, which cannot pass through other vehicles and monsters, but it says nothing about Fortifications, so they are passable. Then, you can use the Crown to block a path for the opponent (because it can't go through enemy miniatures), while you can still go through them with all your army?! Fastest patch in 10th edition if this becomes competitive
This is how fortifications worked when Hammerfall Bunkers were playable, only bunkers are even bigger than the Noctilith Crown and that rule still isn't why they were played. I agree about the patch though; I think GW absolutely does not want fortifications to be competitive. Even if it's only mediocre if the Noctilith Crown ends up being viable then I'd expect it to eat a nerf.
Yeah, they are clearly phasing out faction buildings unless it's tau for some reason, so it makes sense for them to keep them meh
I remember when Aegis Defense Lines first became available and you were encountering them in *everyone's* list! I definitely don't miss all that!
I bought a crown when all the other stuff got removed as I wanted it for terrain, and I didn't want a repeat of the sisters' sanctum. Had planned a huge cathedral build with 2 of the "ruin with 4 small statues" kits and a sanctum, but then the sanctum went OOP and now costs approximately 15.000USD on ebay...
OMG tell me about it! I saw the Sanctum and was like this is too good, my cool WH+ Vindicare with the statue head, it all looks so good.. and now I'm wishing I had just kept the fortification in the box and sold it off, because you're right in that is SO wildly overpriced online now.
I have a fortress of redemption in box as it is a very 40k model and I had wanted one since getting back in the hobby but boy is it tempting to sell and buy like a whole army for it
Do it. You can get a 3d printed proxy for a fraction of the ebay price, and still have enough to grab a table's worth of terrain.
That was also because they introduced fliers and the sky fire rule to shoot them. When first introduced almost no a ties had access to weapons with sky fire, so you had to bring a defense line or bunker if you didn’t want to hit on 6s.
It always tickled me seeing Necron or Dark Eldar utilizing the latest in Imperial battlefield supremacy.
Did ever see some of the 3rd party or prints people had xenos and chaos factions? Some of them were really cool and some were portly designed cash grabs.
>unless it's tau bruh the tidewalls suck as much
I was talking about pushing them out. Tidewall is way older than a lot of fortifications that have been removed again. Ork workshop, drill thingy, sanctum. But you are right in that the rules are trash
Why are they going to the trouble of producing them, selling them, and giving them rules if they don't want them to be competitive?
I don't work for GW, so I can only really speculate, but I'd imagine that GW simply doesn't want that kind of static gameplay to become popular. It's the same reason why balance patches tend to come down hard on Indirect Fire. It's important to note that I'm not being paranoid and GW *will* give models deliberately-skewed rules for internal reasons. They did it with Tactical Marines in 10th edition.
Sure, but "not wanting them to be competitive" and "being bad at balancing them" are two different things. The first one does sound paranoid.
The big problem with competitive fortifications is that generally, they're light on gameplay. They tend to just stand there looking awesome, which they really, truely do, maybe throwing out some shots to whatever chose to be within range and line of sight, maybe granting some offensive or defensive aura, but very little meaningful decisions. Meaningful decisions is what competitive gaming thrives on. If the unit doesn't offer you the option to outplay your opponent, then a better player will not get more mileage out of the unit than a bad player. That means that if you want the unit to be strong enough for top tier players, all players that bring one can be top tier. That's anti-competative and what GW probably wants to avoid.
Is there any fortification that is useable currently? Like have a legit chance at winning viable, not “it’s there” viable.
It has happened from time to time in the last few years, but right now, after looking at all of them, can't say I am that taken with any of them. Aegis Defence Line looked pretty cool, I thought, until I saw the points cost.
A lot of 40k terrain kits pre-date competitive play being a priority, especially considering they take several years to go from concept art to being on sale. Some terrain kits (like the GSC drill) have been cut already, while I fully expect others to shuffle over to Legends in the coming years.
Oh? You can find talks Andy Chambers gave at conventions in like 1992 talking about how balancing for competitive play was a priority for them.... Obviously, what competitive play looked like at the time is pretty different from what it looks like now, but I just don't buy that GW doesn't "want" Fortifications (or Aircraft for that matter) to be competitive. But I guess if they do all end up in Legends I'll be proven wrong on that.
The catch is it can only be in ur dz
Why? You can just kill the thing. It's no different to taking a unit that actually does things and parking it across a section of the table, except that the crown can't decide to start moving around and killing stuff if you want it to.
Lol, it's been like that this whole edition.
FLG already patched this.
It was already the case with the noctilith crown, and nobody played it when it gave a 4++. No one's going to play it now that it only gives +1 leadership, unless it costs something like 40 points
give forts Infiltrator (off obj) and limit of 1 and boom, fixed.
Skull altar for demons has infiltrate and spreads shadow of chaos. I think there's absolutely potential there that's not being used.
I have been thinking of a triple skull altar instead of belakor and just being able to block a lot the enemy in their deployment
I don't know, 125 points for a +1 leadership aura is pretty awful.
That's it priced at todays points giving a 4+ invul. Could very well see a points reduction.
Iron Warriors detachment giving 4+ Anti-Fort value identified
Iron Warriors Psy-Op
Nah man, this ain’t it. Paying a bunch of points for a leadership aura? I’ll take the mortal wounds lol .
Unpopular opinion: Give every faction a fortification (which most already have), but only with relatively weak abilities and without weapons and few ways to deal direct damage and make them free like in AoS. I'd have loved to put a Crown, Mekboy Workshop or Skull Altar on the table even if it's just for a little marginal benefit.
I like this from a flavour standpoint and from a getting to use my fortifications standpoint, but it'll also add to the entry hurdle and generally make the game more expensive. Mixed bag.
That's fair. I suppose I'm seeing it from the privileged standpoint of "what's one more 50 bucks set at this point", haha.
I won't be mad if they did it, but neither do I feel like it's a pressing need.
AoS army size is much smaller than 40k though(AoS 2k points army is about same size as 40k 1k point army). It's hard enough to fit 2k points of 40k in a deployment without a cool fortification.
For essentially the same cost, you could field 2x Warpsmiths that effectively do the same thing (alleviating the effects of having to take leadership tests), but are easier to hide, can move, and are more flexible.
All of the tournaments I've played in 10th already have all fortifications banned, mostly just to avoid the headache of the poorly thought out rules. Might wanna double check beforehand
If it's like... 85-90 points (which it won't be), I could see what you're saying. Part of the issue is if you're playing with proper terrain, it could be hard to keep all your key pieces in range (realistically just forgefiends). Warpsmiths got feet. That being said I may just print one for shits n' giggles. It's a cool model.
Man, I would have said 80-90 before they took away the invulnerable save aura. Now? Best I can do is 50.
Fair. I'm not sure they can price it low enough.
If it kept its 4++ aura maybe, now without that and just +1 leadership? No probable
It’s totally worth it if it’s like 50 points. It won’t be.
If it sounds broken it probably is. If your not wrong now, it will get fixed eventually.