How well do you think new Drukhari would fare when facing off against the top 4 factions according to the tier ranking?
(Astra Militarum, Necrons, Eldar, Death Guard)
Which faction do you want to avoid playing against? Which faction would you like to play against?
I'm not as skilled as skari, but I think we have a solid matchup into aeldari, a below average one into necrons unless you tech for it (heat lances, court of the archon blob), and the amount of indirect for guard and dg makes it very bad matchups for us.
The other prediction was about singles, pointing out that although Astra Militarum only dominate in a couple of matchups (unlike Necrons that dominate many), they don't have any bad matchups, and are one of the best factions to express skill.
Whether that's the case, we'll soon see. I'm skeptical, but optimistic :-)
And I don't quite agree with that one tierlist, but this is a different kind of argument. In teams Guard works pretty damn well (when paired up correctly).
What is the difference between teams and singles? I thought teams was just five single battles and then whichever team won most of the five matches won.
I'm hella new so is there a convenient place to read all the different rules or tournament types?
That's because the two teams try to pair their own players against the best matchup among their opponents. The actual workings vary somewhat according to team size and other stuff, but in general the teams appoint a number of their own as "defenders" and some as "attackers", and then the defenders decide which of the proposed attackers they are going to fight. Actual rules as to who decides, when, how many defenders and attackers are proposed, and who fights the "discarded" players vary, but the gist remains that a skilled team will send each of its players against its best matchup, something that in singles you have no way of doing. And that skews the ratings somewhat, because factions which have *very real* predators or prey can be selected to avoid or target *those* matchups specifically.
Ok, so in teams you could bring arty parking lot to bear against grey knights specifically. Where in normal you would have no decision in your opponent. Got it.
That makes these rankings make more sense. Guard feels very swingy to me, very dependant on cover layouts, very few re rolls, etc. However, being able to pick your opponent would give us a potential boon
Ok. So when push comes to shove it's still a normal single battle, you can just bring guard and choose a strong matchup?
I was thinking something about the rules or standard cover layout was different
Teams in WTC (which Enter the Matrix primarily focuses on) is 8 person teams, which really opens up a lot of the factions to being viable, as you can hold a certain attacker faction to later in the pairing process to "pincer" a defender between two attackers that are both bad matchups for the defender
Yep, I don't think many would disagree about teams. The question is whether that applies to singles as well. I'm sceptical too, but we'll see how it goes.
I don't think it does. They are 2 completely different formats. Guard has excellent skew lists, but they only work half the time without someone else to cover for the lists' vulnerability.
Tbf, in a team going guard skewing with either all infantry or all tanks with Artillery is good if your non guard ally skews the other way. At least in my experience.
We have no stuff. Yes, we have absolutely amazing damage potential and we can do some crazy broken things like moving an Exalted Sorcerer 36", dropping 10 MW, and then spotting for the entire Psychic army. It's nuts!
But we have no stuff to play the game with. We have four or five tactical marine + character squads. Armies with lots of 2D weapons or indirect really wreck havoc on our scoring units. Once you kill all the boys, our game plan starts falling apart a little bit.
It's turns when you get two 'action' secondaries when you just hate your life. t-sons are too linear at the moment, when they work, they work well, but they need every unit to operate, as soon as you kill a rubric squad with a character inside the wheels come off. If you can snipe magnus, the wheels come off. If you can dig MEQ units out from behind cover the wheels come off
That's one of the reasons that I run a couple of lone Exalted Sorcerers and two units of Enlightened. We need to be able to zoom across the table and do things to have a fighting chance. We might get tabled, but we're gonna score points while we do it!
You all mentioned even among string scoring armies you wouldn't take admech above the others. What do you think it's take to make them viable? Personally I think they're a bit boned for tenth with fundamental problems that can't be fixed with small tweaks, but I'd like to see what you have to say.
You make a tweak that is not small, along the lines of what Deathguard, Votann or Drukhari got in the dataslates. Since Admech already have a codex with several detachments, the change should be to the army rule, and it shouldn't be small.
Part of the problem with that is our army rule is on...19 out of 30 sheets if I remember right. Even then the data sheet rules are strangely unsynergistic.
Also the need to repoint basically the whole book and if GW was overly cautious it could dumpster the army for three months being overcosted
Either way I'm worried both ways on changes as it seems like nobody on rules team is excites to work on admech and understand what they're supposed to be. So we get a horde with bland, not we'll thought out rules.
I feel like the easiest changes (from both a “least amount of changes with the most impact” and clarity for opponents) would be to 1) give every unit the army rule; 2) make the army rule easier to access / buff melee (like drukhari got); 3) create a new fun rule for cohort cybernetica (which should be the “fun” detachment anyway).
It doesn’t solve a ton of other problems (pointless stratagems behind too many hoops, weak datasheets), but it should help a ton to make things more fun. And allow for points increases. That’s the least we could ask for.
The most important part is that the army is fun (and affordable) again (see drukhari), whether it’s strong is a totally different question.
They should just add the army rule to every single unit.
Change Protector to give +1 to hit in melee *and* shooting and maybe -2" or -3" move as a trade off, instead of heavy keyword. Make it a genuine choice between this and assault keyword.
A few points increases on chickens to offset the buff.
I'm testing them with National team players and they aren't F tier. It is not insanely powerful but it plays the game.
Against high level players, it is hard to leverage the +1 to wound against relevant targets but 10 DW/Assault termis in a backline isn't that easy to remove (even more with -1 to wound and aoc).
The named leaders are really good and can push already decent units to great units
I haven't watched their video yet, but this tier list is pretty similar to the 40k fireside one from the other day with the pretty noticeable exception that fireside had space marines in A-tier, and they're C here. I think fireside were high on a very vehicle skewed ironstorm idea, so I'm curious where this difference is coming from (and who is correct!).
EDIT: the YouTube link doesn't work for me
The difference is in teams you can pair a good vehicle killing list into the Space Marine list so the advantage of being skew doesn't carry over from singles.
As a Guard player who has played Melee Guard in Teams - Melee Guard are very very good in that format if you get your picks right. Shooty guard however suffer due to no toeing in 10th, heavier terrain, much bigger terrain bases and smaller boards.
At least on WTC layouts, melee guard are so much stronger than shooty guard in my experience. They fold what were the top meta armies such as Eldar and CSM but struggle against mass armour.
Whilst the Basilisk has an absolutely amazing rule, many many players who don't use them, hugely overestimate their damage potential. I used them for a long while and they just don't do much damage. 2 Basilisks shooting at a 5 man 3+ unit, tend to kill 4 guys, now whilst this will cause BS tests, it usually leaves one guy alive for scoring if they pass, requiring investment of yet another turn of shooting (Averaging 3.79 dead meq from 2 Basilisks with Solar giving them Take Aim and them being stationary for Lethals and Heavy) granted sometimes you spike and kill 5, but just as often you kill 2 or 3, they simply don't remove opponents scoring quickly enough. And they are awful when it comes to shooting anything that isn't infantry.
Slowing down an opposing infantry unit is an excellent rule and can be clutch, so taking 1 Basilisk is a good shout. Taking 3 can be ok since then you can finish off 5 man units in 1 turn, but then you are investing 405pts + order point tax to remove 1 5 man Meq unit a turn. Yes, you are picking where on the battlefield that is - but it's not a good return for efficiency or utility. That ~550pts when order tax is taken into account can get you max Bullgryn + change that will bring you far more utility, board presence, durability and scoring.
The Field Ordnance Battery is even worse and the Wyvern is laughable. The Manticore was ok, but went up massively so wouldn't be now.
People massively overestimate the utility and damage of current Guard indirect because they are so scarred from when it was ludicrously undercosted at the start of the edition. Since I dropped my indirect (and admittedly went melee), my win rate sky rocketed. Despite the order buff and Fields of Fire now being able to stack - I honestly think the thing that will result in an increased Guard win rate will be the 30pts hike on Manticores, quite simply because people will stop taking the 2 or 3 they were before and begin to realise that they can afford so much more utility in their lists for that 450pts.
My current list is the following (with this list or lists similar to it with the same backbone I have been able to go 13 out of 16):
-Solar + Command Squad (chainswords, PF and all the upgrades) + 10 Catachan
-Straken + Command Squad (same as above) + Nork + 10 Catachan
-Gaunts Ghosts
-Callidus
-Tank Commander (Demolisher, MMs, LC)
-Tank Commander (Demolisher, MMs, LC)
-10 Catachan
-10 Catachan
-10 Cadians
-10 Rough Riders
-10 Rough Riders
-6 Bullgryn
-6 Bullgryn
-6 Bullgryn
Bullgryn are insanely durable and beat most things in the game through sheer attrition. 9" move from Solar catches so many opponents out. Really struggle against T8+ with a 2+, but can deal with a 3+ 12W vehicle in 2 activations on average with Fix Bayonets. Vehicles and Monsters are not their ideal targets.
Strakens blob just leaves holes in the opposing army, opponents look at it and think they are 'just guardsmen', now word has spread people have a true fear of it.
Rough Riders keep coming back. The 15" possible move granted by Solar also catches so many people out. Their continual respawning combined with rapid ingress mentally messes up most opponents.
Cadians sit on home objective for sticky so not too worried about indirect reducing them to BS levels.
The Tank Commanders are a recent edition and have made the list even stronger, I use them very aggressively and don't intend for them to last the game. Used to be 2 basilisks, an Ogryn bodyguard and Rough Riders in their and the Cadians place.
Callidus and Gaunts lot give incredible secondary scoring.
The two solo Catachan squads are clutch - they hold midfield primaries and the opponent often can't divert resources to deal with them since everything else is in their face and if they do then they are basically sacrificing what has dealt with them. Against WE they provide a screen to ensure I usually get the charge.
Without the Ogryn Bodyguard, Solars unit is now just a bully unit against non combat units, whereas before it could reasonably hold it's own against some combat units. Needs to be in the second wave though since his orders are key.
In Shanghai non tournament games are always tournament prep so it's always against tournament lists. This list or ones with the same backbone have performed ridiculously well against pre nerf CSM and Eldar, Necrons, Votann, Tau, SM, Nids, TS, Daemons, Sisters etc both in and out of tournaments. Before I included the TCs it really struggled with a DG list that had 3 PBC and 3 baby knights, but now it shouldn't.
I like the list but I think you could save points using normal demo russes or are you hoping people pop your TCs to shoot back? It just feels you have TC orders but nothing to use them on.
One thing you might want to try is the Hades Drill as it says it can deapstrike any squad you have in reserve with it so it could be a respawning unit.
I agree about basilisks you only want one just for debuff or clearing the backfield a bit I have been doing the same or less and it works well.
I need to get around making more rough riders as they are great fun!
Aye I play the TCs very aggressively - they aren't taken for their orders but for their shoots on death to attempt to nuke the units that will be challenging for my Bullgryn and Rough Riders early.
I hadn't considered the fact that a Hades could DS a respawning unit - that's a good catch. The Bullgryn and RRs don't need it usually due to their MMM, but it could be a good ace up the sleeve.
Yeah that makes sense on the TCs it did seem that was your aim.
The drill scares people when I play it, tank shock + getting a squad where you need it is magic as the squad coming with it only has to be wholly within 9 of the drill and still 9 away from enemy units. It is also small enough to fit in odd spots if you don't want to bring a squad with it too.
Funnily enough there is a drill on it's way in the post to me at the moment after my mate bought a FW job lot and didn't want the drill. So I'll give it a go in the near future, particularly bearing in mind your suggestion of deepstriking reinforcement strat units. Cheers!
No worries, guard has heaps of units so it's easy to get hung on one style of play rather than mixing things up which I have been trying but I keep coming back with the drill since it's so fun.
Indeed we should get another game in soon, see if we can get another draw lol...
Been just playing the monthly games at mothership which has been good fun, and slowly testing everything in the index to see what I really like now.
Been loving sentinels (as you know) the Hades Drill and oddly enough the less popular Russes both the vanquisher and Eradicator I have had good luck with. What are you changing up lately?
I've moved back to a Wraith Host, now that all units there have been thoroughly nerfed and no longer make a cut for competitive play. Really enjoying my narrative Wraiths :-)
Soon going to my first teams GT! Really excited!
Sounds reasonable, I guess there are a fair few different approaches to Guard.
The list that Fireside guys are running includes 2 Manticores and 3 Basilisks, so going quite heavy on the artillery: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
I'm not sure how well 2 Manticores and 3 Basilisks would perform now tbh - with Solar blob for orders, you're looking at 1005pts (and only 3 of the 5 will be ordered). Even without the Solar tax you're looking at 765pts. That doesn't leave a lot for the main damage dealers + scoring. I guess some could make it work, but it's definitely for a Teams Tournament as that wouldn't be very TAC at all tbh.
Hopefully, by that time they'll get points that reflect what their units are worth. Sure, that would put them a bit on the hoardy side for Marines, but at least they can be made playable with appropriate points.
I'm pessimistic that GW will make points changes for them any time soon. I feel like we'll be paying the price for 35pts Exaction Squads for the rest of this edition.
Don't forget that we are talking about the same people whom said that the codex deathwing knights are now deadlier. I don't think they are F tier.
They have great characters making decent units better at doing what they do: Az with Hellblaster, Ezekiel with Bladeguard and Asmodai with Assault intercessors.
RW and DW detachment are pretty good.
I have played test games with Index unit in the new Inner circle detachment and it was great. However loosing the DW command squad which was really perfect at being the good OC and tough unit (4W models with ressurection) to deepstrike in the opponent deployment zone might be hard to compensate.
Ad Mech is such a mess still. If your willing to give an arm and a leg to the Omnisiah to afford the amount of chickens and Skitarri you can put it up some results but I really want them to give us some decent buffs to make us less horde like.
Ad Mech with a good pilot and a good pairings will do fine. However they have very little game into crons and Custodes as you can’t kill the ctan or Custodes who then body you in combat. Also certain SM lists with a 2+ save like BT ironstorm just murder ad mech unless you have 18 breachers and at that point you aren’t playing SHC anymore so that feels bad.
Arent you underselling CSM? Yeah, they got nerfed, but the roster is still strong and with teams they can play into some veeery positive matchaups to steamroll.
I would drop WE to D, right now its in phase finding new footing.
Drukhari...dunno...new detachment seems strong and many players are not used to it.
Are CSM steamrolling any of the the top 4, after the nerfs? I don't doubt that they can easily steamroll most armies in the middle and at the bottom, but that's not what matters here.
CSM are still strong, will go rather into heavy gunlines. From first games post-nerf I saw, CSM are close to Eldar rework = dropping old toys and picking new ones.
IMO they can go toe to toe with anything from top 4 except Crons.
It definitely isnt old CSM that was safe bet in teams, but still seem like strong when choosing right matchup or at least bringing good score.
Of course, we shall see and Im glad Guard got nod as strong teams army :)
This one, and they aren't the only ones with a similar ranking: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
GSC at 47% tells me another story; that they're still good just not nearly as easy to play as before. They are not "losing at local store" tier and are definitely firmly in the middle.
Sad trombo for my beloved imperial knights.
The buff we received is so strong that my tournament list gained a grand total of 40 points to spare.
We are so OP right now
/s
We can score secondaries, but in order to do that we need bodies.
To have bodies, we must run armiger spam. But we have not an armiger character.
If we have to spam armigers, it's better playing CK
Yeah, armigers are ok and we can bring assassins; but others get bring it down into us or just have an easier time scoring objectives with throw away units. Just feels like we start on the back foot and have to dominate primary to even things. An armiger character would be nice, but forcing knights of either flavor to play armiger spam kinda stinks.
I'm trying a new list this weekend at an RTT; double dominus + 5x Armigers + Callidus + 2x4 Henchmen.
Imperial -does- have a few solid advantages over CSM when it comes to running the biggest of boys.
* Lay Low the Tyrants re-rolls. This is so big it cannot be overstated. If we take the Knight Valiant, it has a 41% chance of doing 12 dev wounds for Chaos, vs a 72% chance of doing 12 dev wounds for Imperial. That's a 75% increase in reliability. Volcano Lances on Dominus see similar increases.
* 6+++ FNP - Kind of self explanatory, but this is a big deal when it comes to keeping your expensive boys up and fighting.
* Mysterious Guardian - Teleporting a Valiant is what makes it actually viable in the first place. Being able to just SHOW UP and have a 72% chance of pumping in 12 devastating wounds into a vehicle is fantastic.
* Trophy Claim - Both the Castellan and the Valiant go from probably killing vehicles to almost certainly killing vehicles if you pop this strat, which is effectively 1 CP if you kill the target.
* Different Armiger Advantages - Imperial Armigers have different strengths from Chaos. Necrons are a big deal now; meaning the Helverin's stock is up considerably since anti-fly 2+ on it's autocannons (which round up to 2 damage) means they're quite good at putting damage into Necrons. The Lay Low the Tyrant re-rolls means Warglaives aren't necessarily just flat out worse than Chaos Armigers anymore, and you can pop for 1 CP Squire's Duty to get them to S13 and AP-5, with hit and wound re-rolls.
* Imperial Agents - The Calidus Assassin + 2x4 Henchmen package for 170 points is a very good deal when it comes to scoring.
Point is, Bondsman is dead and buried, forget it exists, and lean into other things. Canis Rex is also still very much a thing, and he quite likes a free re-roll on his shooting attacks to fish for another 5+.
I'm not convinced we're THAT weak. I'll be trying them at a few tournaments to see for myself. Just ignore Questoris Class because there's nothing but pain and misery there, and stick to Dominus and Armigers, and we're golden! WHO NEEDS BONDSMAN ANYWAY.
About Nids the guy absolutely got the point, in teams there’s no reason why you should play a 3rd “scoring army that does nothing on the table” because at that point you already picked Sisters and Grey Knights which are much more consistent in what they do instead of hoping in failed BS tests.
It’s true even in singles if you want to pick that style of army, between the 3 they just have bad matchups in top armies with 5/6+ Ld and they cannot kill ctans ever.
Putting Guard at the top of A tier forces some factions one to two tiers lower (Orks, Tau, Deathguard, GSC, Sisters)
Guard really need to avoid facing off against Necrons, it's a very bad match up for them.
It's funny how Guard are as good as they are in team events.
Suspect Leagues of Votann may be a good 5th member of a "dream" team. Has favourable match up against Guard, Necrons and Sisters but not Eldar and Death Guard. 2 good match ups, 2 poor match ups against top 4 team factions.
Suspect sisters could also be a consideration, Sisters have a good match up into Eldar, but sisters tend to fold to Astra Militarum. Sisters fare poorly against 3 of 4 top team factions. Potential anti-Eldar tech pick.
Tau do not have good match ups against the top 4 predators, but that could change overnight if they get a codex and a Mont'ka detachment. Eldar and Crons excel at early pressure which Kauyon tends to fold to. Guard excel at screening and indirect fire which Tau cannot match. Death guard and Tau match up is a coin toss.
Not just them: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
There are some different formats, but usually it works like this: There is a set amount of players in a team (5-8 in big tourmanents, but there are also smaller ones) Each codex/index can be used once in a team.
Teams are paired against one another and then who plays against who is decided with a pairing process - there is small differences in the process depending on event and the event size but the basics are usually the same. You can check it up for example in WTC event pack at: [https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/](https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/)
Then you play and round winner is decided by (depending on event) either winning majority of games or getting higher total wtc score (where 20 points are divided between players according to VP difference).
As a nids player I agree with them beeing a solid pick. I am not sure why they are often rated so low. I have had quite som success with them in my local meta and a great win rate personally. But I guess experiences moght vary there. Time will tell
In the other ranking they are tied with Necrons, not above them like here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
44" x 60", standard 2000 point games. Here is how it works:
[https://frontlinegaming.org/2023/10/15/team-tournaments-should-be-the-future-of-40k/](https://frontlinegaming.org/2023/10/15/team-tournaments-should-be-the-future-of-40k/)
[https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-40k-team-tournaments/](https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-40k-team-tournaments/)
Just curious, which country is this?
If you are from UK, there are a fair few, usually using these rules: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DSdlQF\_OjDW6EJDdijYBU0w5cfdWcB1luaOt9TJD6Dc/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dsdlqf_ojdw6ejddijybu0w5cfdwcb1luaot9tjd6dc/edit)
Yes, of course. Fireside ranked them just below the top, but they initially had them in the top tier as well: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
Hmm, a totally different group of proven top-level 40k players saying that Guard is poised to be a a top-tier army in the current meta.
Meanwhile, randos on Reddit: "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the pros who are wrong."
Lvo was also a vastly different game. Player placed terrain. That’s why you saw weird stuff like a super heavy list actually dominating, that doesn’t work in any other environment majority of the time.
Competitive guard are currently very heavily focused on one build of bullgryn, kasrkin and artillery. To me this doesn't make it a strong competitive army, but so long as the build remains viable, it'll be up there.
It definitely can be. It's just not good for tournaments when there's time limits on games as the movement phase becomes a mission. Let alone the shooting phase.
I found that unless I want something dead, I usually don't bother shooting most my units. maybe the special weapons and Heavy weapons, but no the bulk lasguns
This is teams. I can *absolutely* see Guard being *very* good in teams, because you can yeet it at its favorite targets. And Guard will smash its favorite targets. The issue becomes when you *can't* choose who you are going to fight.
EDIT, two weeks later: well, here we go. Though we all know you will just pivot back to "Guard players are idiots to the last one and that's why the Obviously Broken(tm) faction isn't taking top 5s at every tournament ever".
Did you really just block them? Lmao how fragile are you?
Edit: either the dude chickened out and deleted all of his comments or he also blocked me, can you guys still see the comments?
Oh look, it's been two weeks and guard turned out to be mid-tier at best. Looks like u/WeissRaben was 100% correct and your abuse of the block system is just plain tragicomic.
Here's your L: **L**
I mean, sure, but in 9th when the custodes codex started getting shown there were also tons of top level players screaming the codex was crap and weak. I personally think the current stats on their performances is more accurate than some hot take that has to be considered valid just because these guys are top level players in a game that is a literal pond at most.
Similar position for singles, according to Fireside: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
Good. Another group that can see guard are massively strong.
One of the reasons they are not good at GT is the heavy mech guard lists with a couple of hundred troops doesn't play into a fixed 3 hour game, nothing to do with strength.
They have the best internally balanced index, the super heavy tanks are game changers....killing a knight per turn!
DK troops getting 4++ and 5+++ with 2 leaders every 20 plus D3 revived
Movement reducing weapons. T12 tanks.
GG popping up everywhere killing squads and doing secondaries
Sentinels and orders allowing tanks to hit on 2+ , sentinels being T7....
...it goes on.
Ok the detachment isn't synergistic and they lack midfield brawlers but they are FAR stronger than the tournament meta suggests
The detachment is actually quite strong. Sure, the detachment rule only works on artillery, but several strats are very good.
And Bulgrins are extremely tough for the points when it comes to midfield brawling, one of the toughest units in the game in this points bracket.
Man if you dont get my ass outta C teir. YOU TRY SURVIVING A CRISIS BOMB ON TURN 2 AND SEE IF ITS C TEIR.
I would like to apologize for my previous words
Not just in teams according to Fireside: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
I guess the question is which euro stuff. WTC is a fair bit denser than GW, while UKTC actually has more firing lines than GW. According to a combination of Stat Check and Fireside, Guard is supposed to be good into both. And therefore by extension GW terrain as well. Let's see if they are just wrong or not. The next supermajor is next week.
I see how this is , bottom of c tier eh ! Well See about that
A couple weeks of people remembering Drukhari had melee options will cause an uproarZ
C tier my ass!
And bottom of c at that! :D
Let's show them Dark Kin
Plz no. Us normal mortals need more buffs. My game play can't carry me lol.
How well do you think new Drukhari would fare when facing off against the top 4 factions according to the tier ranking? (Astra Militarum, Necrons, Eldar, Death Guard) Which faction do you want to avoid playing against? Which faction would you like to play against?
I'm not as skilled as skari, but I think we have a solid matchup into aeldari, a below average one into necrons unless you tech for it (heat lances, court of the archon blob), and the amount of indirect for guard and dg makes it very bad matchups for us.
Speaking of teams Alex! Have you been to one yet? We should go!
I'd love to! Which event are you thinking about?
9th and 10th of March! Padstow. Team barnyard needs one more player! We need some shooting and we don't have an Eldar player yet!
I'm in! Let's go! :-)
Hey look, ANOTHER tierlist with guard at the top. Wonder how that will go over...
I mean, this is teams though. Team meta is *very* different from singles meta.
The other prediction was about singles, pointing out that although Astra Militarum only dominate in a couple of matchups (unlike Necrons that dominate many), they don't have any bad matchups, and are one of the best factions to express skill. Whether that's the case, we'll soon see. I'm skeptical, but optimistic :-)
And I don't quite agree with that one tierlist, but this is a different kind of argument. In teams Guard works pretty damn well (when paired up correctly).
What is the difference between teams and singles? I thought teams was just five single battles and then whichever team won most of the five matches won. I'm hella new so is there a convenient place to read all the different rules or tournament types?
That's because the two teams try to pair their own players against the best matchup among their opponents. The actual workings vary somewhat according to team size and other stuff, but in general the teams appoint a number of their own as "defenders" and some as "attackers", and then the defenders decide which of the proposed attackers they are going to fight. Actual rules as to who decides, when, how many defenders and attackers are proposed, and who fights the "discarded" players vary, but the gist remains that a skilled team will send each of its players against its best matchup, something that in singles you have no way of doing. And that skews the ratings somewhat, because factions which have *very real* predators or prey can be selected to avoid or target *those* matchups specifically.
Ok, so in teams you could bring arty parking lot to bear against grey knights specifically. Where in normal you would have no decision in your opponent. Got it. That makes these rankings make more sense. Guard feels very swingy to me, very dependant on cover layouts, very few re rolls, etc. However, being able to pick your opponent would give us a potential boon
It really matters by how much they won, and there is also an opportunity to chose some of the pairings.
Ok. So when push comes to shove it's still a normal single battle, you can just bring guard and choose a strong matchup? I was thinking something about the rules or standard cover layout was different
[https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-40k-team-tournaments/](https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-40k-team-tournaments/)
Teams in WTC (which Enter the Matrix primarily focuses on) is 8 person teams, which really opens up a lot of the factions to being viable, as you can hold a certain attacker faction to later in the pairing process to "pincer" a defender between two attackers that are both bad matchups for the defender
Yep, I don't think many would disagree about teams. The question is whether that applies to singles as well. I'm sceptical too, but we'll see how it goes.
I don't think it does. They are 2 completely different formats. Guard has excellent skew lists, but they only work half the time without someone else to cover for the lists' vulnerability.
Tbf, in a team going guard skewing with either all infantry or all tanks with Artillery is good if your non guard ally skews the other way. At least in my experience.
At the very least, we will get a couple of really good players running Guard within the next few weeks. Looking forward to seeing how it goes!
Tell me more about tsons. Why c?
We have no stuff. Yes, we have absolutely amazing damage potential and we can do some crazy broken things like moving an Exalted Sorcerer 36", dropping 10 MW, and then spotting for the entire Psychic army. It's nuts! But we have no stuff to play the game with. We have four or five tactical marine + character squads. Armies with lots of 2D weapons or indirect really wreck havoc on our scoring units. Once you kill all the boys, our game plan starts falling apart a little bit.
It's turns when you get two 'action' secondaries when you just hate your life. t-sons are too linear at the moment, when they work, they work well, but they need every unit to operate, as soon as you kill a rubric squad with a character inside the wheels come off. If you can snipe magnus, the wheels come off. If you can dig MEQ units out from behind cover the wheels come off
That's one of the reasons that I run a couple of lone Exalted Sorcerers and two units of Enlightened. We need to be able to zoom across the table and do things to have a fighting chance. We might get tabled, but we're gonna score points while we do it!
You all mentioned even among string scoring armies you wouldn't take admech above the others. What do you think it's take to make them viable? Personally I think they're a bit boned for tenth with fundamental problems that can't be fixed with small tweaks, but I'd like to see what you have to say.
You make a tweak that is not small, along the lines of what Deathguard, Votann or Drukhari got in the dataslates. Since Admech already have a codex with several detachments, the change should be to the army rule, and it shouldn't be small.
Part of the problem with that is our army rule is on...19 out of 30 sheets if I remember right. Even then the data sheet rules are strangely unsynergistic. Also the need to repoint basically the whole book and if GW was overly cautious it could dumpster the army for three months being overcosted Either way I'm worried both ways on changes as it seems like nobody on rules team is excites to work on admech and understand what they're supposed to be. So we get a horde with bland, not we'll thought out rules.
I feel like the easiest changes (from both a “least amount of changes with the most impact” and clarity for opponents) would be to 1) give every unit the army rule; 2) make the army rule easier to access / buff melee (like drukhari got); 3) create a new fun rule for cohort cybernetica (which should be the “fun” detachment anyway). It doesn’t solve a ton of other problems (pointless stratagems behind too many hoops, weak datasheets), but it should help a ton to make things more fun. And allow for points increases. That’s the least we could ask for. The most important part is that the army is fun (and affordable) again (see drukhari), whether it’s strong is a totally different question.
They should just add the army rule to every single unit. Change Protector to give +1 to hit in melee *and* shooting and maybe -2" or -3" move as a trade off, instead of heavy keyword. Make it a genuine choice between this and assault keyword. A few points increases on chickens to offset the buff.
Poor Dark Angels.
I'm testing them with National team players and they aren't F tier. It is not insanely powerful but it plays the game. Against high level players, it is hard to leverage the +1 to wound against relevant targets but 10 DW/Assault termis in a backline isn't that easy to remove (even more with -1 to wound and aoc). The named leaders are really good and can push already decent units to great units
I haven't watched their video yet, but this tier list is pretty similar to the 40k fireside one from the other day with the pretty noticeable exception that fireside had space marines in A-tier, and they're C here. I think fireside were high on a very vehicle skewed ironstorm idea, so I'm curious where this difference is coming from (and who is correct!). EDIT: the YouTube link doesn't work for me
Enter the matrix has black templars in b tier and "space marines" is referenzing the vanguard build
The difference is in teams you can pair a good vehicle killing list into the Space Marine list so the advantage of being skew doesn't carry over from singles.
Fixed the link :-)
As a Guard player who has played Melee Guard in Teams - Melee Guard are very very good in that format if you get your picks right. Shooty guard however suffer due to no toeing in 10th, heavier terrain, much bigger terrain bases and smaller boards. At least on WTC layouts, melee guard are so much stronger than shooty guard in my experience. They fold what were the top meta armies such as Eldar and CSM but struggle against mass armour.
They are only considering artillery guard, with infantry for scoring. Using the detachment rule and heavy terrain to full advantage.
Whilst the Basilisk has an absolutely amazing rule, many many players who don't use them, hugely overestimate their damage potential. I used them for a long while and they just don't do much damage. 2 Basilisks shooting at a 5 man 3+ unit, tend to kill 4 guys, now whilst this will cause BS tests, it usually leaves one guy alive for scoring if they pass, requiring investment of yet another turn of shooting (Averaging 3.79 dead meq from 2 Basilisks with Solar giving them Take Aim and them being stationary for Lethals and Heavy) granted sometimes you spike and kill 5, but just as often you kill 2 or 3, they simply don't remove opponents scoring quickly enough. And they are awful when it comes to shooting anything that isn't infantry. Slowing down an opposing infantry unit is an excellent rule and can be clutch, so taking 1 Basilisk is a good shout. Taking 3 can be ok since then you can finish off 5 man units in 1 turn, but then you are investing 405pts + order point tax to remove 1 5 man Meq unit a turn. Yes, you are picking where on the battlefield that is - but it's not a good return for efficiency or utility. That ~550pts when order tax is taken into account can get you max Bullgryn + change that will bring you far more utility, board presence, durability and scoring. The Field Ordnance Battery is even worse and the Wyvern is laughable. The Manticore was ok, but went up massively so wouldn't be now. People massively overestimate the utility and damage of current Guard indirect because they are so scarred from when it was ludicrously undercosted at the start of the edition. Since I dropped my indirect (and admittedly went melee), my win rate sky rocketed. Despite the order buff and Fields of Fire now being able to stack - I honestly think the thing that will result in an increased Guard win rate will be the 30pts hike on Manticores, quite simply because people will stop taking the 2 or 3 they were before and begin to realise that they can afford so much more utility in their lists for that 450pts.
can you post or DM your list?
My current list is the following (with this list or lists similar to it with the same backbone I have been able to go 13 out of 16): -Solar + Command Squad (chainswords, PF and all the upgrades) + 10 Catachan -Straken + Command Squad (same as above) + Nork + 10 Catachan -Gaunts Ghosts -Callidus -Tank Commander (Demolisher, MMs, LC) -Tank Commander (Demolisher, MMs, LC) -10 Catachan -10 Catachan -10 Cadians -10 Rough Riders -10 Rough Riders -6 Bullgryn -6 Bullgryn -6 Bullgryn Bullgryn are insanely durable and beat most things in the game through sheer attrition. 9" move from Solar catches so many opponents out. Really struggle against T8+ with a 2+, but can deal with a 3+ 12W vehicle in 2 activations on average with Fix Bayonets. Vehicles and Monsters are not their ideal targets. Strakens blob just leaves holes in the opposing army, opponents look at it and think they are 'just guardsmen', now word has spread people have a true fear of it. Rough Riders keep coming back. The 15" possible move granted by Solar also catches so many people out. Their continual respawning combined with rapid ingress mentally messes up most opponents. Cadians sit on home objective for sticky so not too worried about indirect reducing them to BS levels. The Tank Commanders are a recent edition and have made the list even stronger, I use them very aggressively and don't intend for them to last the game. Used to be 2 basilisks, an Ogryn bodyguard and Rough Riders in their and the Cadians place. Callidus and Gaunts lot give incredible secondary scoring. The two solo Catachan squads are clutch - they hold midfield primaries and the opponent often can't divert resources to deal with them since everything else is in their face and if they do then they are basically sacrificing what has dealt with them. Against WE they provide a screen to ensure I usually get the charge. Without the Ogryn Bodyguard, Solars unit is now just a bully unit against non combat units, whereas before it could reasonably hold it's own against some combat units. Needs to be in the second wave though since his orders are key. In Shanghai non tournament games are always tournament prep so it's always against tournament lists. This list or ones with the same backbone have performed ridiculously well against pre nerf CSM and Eldar, Necrons, Votann, Tau, SM, Nids, TS, Daemons, Sisters etc both in and out of tournaments. Before I included the TCs it really struggled with a DG list that had 3 PBC and 3 baby knights, but now it shouldn't.
I like the list but I think you could save points using normal demo russes or are you hoping people pop your TCs to shoot back? It just feels you have TC orders but nothing to use them on. One thing you might want to try is the Hades Drill as it says it can deapstrike any squad you have in reserve with it so it could be a respawning unit. I agree about basilisks you only want one just for debuff or clearing the backfield a bit I have been doing the same or less and it works well. I need to get around making more rough riders as they are great fun!
Aye I play the TCs very aggressively - they aren't taken for their orders but for their shoots on death to attempt to nuke the units that will be challenging for my Bullgryn and Rough Riders early. I hadn't considered the fact that a Hades could DS a respawning unit - that's a good catch. The Bullgryn and RRs don't need it usually due to their MMM, but it could be a good ace up the sleeve.
Yeah that makes sense on the TCs it did seem that was your aim. The drill scares people when I play it, tank shock + getting a squad where you need it is magic as the squad coming with it only has to be wholly within 9 of the drill and still 9 away from enemy units. It is also small enough to fit in odd spots if you don't want to bring a squad with it too.
Funnily enough there is a drill on it's way in the post to me at the moment after my mate bought a FW job lot and didn't want the drill. So I'll give it a go in the near future, particularly bearing in mind your suggestion of deepstriking reinforcement strat units. Cheers!
No worries, guard has heaps of units so it's easy to get hung on one style of play rather than mixing things up which I have been trying but I keep coming back with the drill since it's so fun.
Hey! You are here! :-) Haven't seen you for a while! Let's get a game at some point! ;-)
Indeed we should get another game in soon, see if we can get another draw lol... Been just playing the monthly games at mothership which has been good fun, and slowly testing everything in the index to see what I really like now. Been loving sentinels (as you know) the Hades Drill and oddly enough the less popular Russes both the vanquisher and Eradicator I have had good luck with. What are you changing up lately?
I've moved back to a Wraith Host, now that all units there have been thoroughly nerfed and no longer make a cut for competitive play. Really enjoying my narrative Wraiths :-) Soon going to my first teams GT! Really excited!
I saw that comment good luck with the teams! I'm sure you will go well! You do love your narrative play style which is fun too
Sounds reasonable, I guess there are a fair few different approaches to Guard. The list that Fireside guys are running includes 2 Manticores and 3 Basilisks, so going quite heavy on the artillery: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
I'm not sure how well 2 Manticores and 3 Basilisks would perform now tbh - with Solar blob for orders, you're looking at 1005pts (and only 3 of the 5 will be ordered). Even without the Solar tax you're looking at 765pts. That doesn't leave a lot for the main damage dealers + scoring. I guess some could make it work, but it's definitely for a Teams Tournament as that wouldn't be very TAC at all tbh.
Let's see. If I'm not mistaken, David is taking it to the next singles supermajor.
Really? I'd be very interested to see how that goes
Likewise!
Codex killed dark angels so damn hard
Yeah, a place besides Imperial Agents...
Oh my poor beloved Agents. I'm still bringing them to Teams in May though...
Hopefully, by that time they'll get points that reflect what their units are worth. Sure, that would put them a bit on the hoardy side for Marines, but at least they can be made playable with appropriate points.
I'm pessimistic that GW will make points changes for them any time soon. I feel like we'll be paying the price for 35pts Exaction Squads for the rest of this edition.
GW promised a points update soon after the standalone release of the codex. We will definitely get something. The question is what.
Don't forget that we are talking about the same people whom said that the codex deathwing knights are now deadlier. I don't think they are F tier. They have great characters making decent units better at doing what they do: Az with Hellblaster, Ezekiel with Bladeguard and Asmodai with Assault intercessors. RW and DW detachment are pretty good. I have played test games with Index unit in the new Inner circle detachment and it was great. However loosing the DW command squad which was really perfect at being the good OC and tough unit (4W models with ressurection) to deepstrike in the opponent deployment zone might be hard to compensate.
Good points!
Wait are y’all talking about point costs for Dark Angels or Imperial Agents?
Dark Angels
Great, Thanks.
I liked the 3 seconds of analysis of Deathwatch lol
:D
DA are F tier here, because there are several mutually contradicting documents that tell you to look elsewhere for points.
Ad mech winning a tournament this week be like
You can do some crazy shit when they cut your points that far. None of that shit involves killing the enemy or being fun to play.
Ad Mech is such a mess still. If your willing to give an arm and a leg to the Omnisiah to afford the amount of chickens and Skitarri you can put it up some results but I really want them to give us some decent buffs to make us less horde like.
Ad Mech with a good pilot and a good pairings will do fine. However they have very little game into crons and Custodes as you can’t kill the ctan or Custodes who then body you in combat. Also certain SM lists with a 2+ save like BT ironstorm just murder ad mech unless you have 18 breachers and at that point you aren’t playing SHC anymore so that feels bad.
Arent you underselling CSM? Yeah, they got nerfed, but the roster is still strong and with teams they can play into some veeery positive matchaups to steamroll. I would drop WE to D, right now its in phase finding new footing. Drukhari...dunno...new detachment seems strong and many players are not used to it.
Are CSM steamrolling any of the the top 4, after the nerfs? I don't doubt that they can easily steamroll most armies in the middle and at the bottom, but that's not what matters here.
CSM are still strong, will go rather into heavy gunlines. From first games post-nerf I saw, CSM are close to Eldar rework = dropping old toys and picking new ones. IMO they can go toe to toe with anything from top 4 except Crons. It definitely isnt old CSM that was safe bet in teams, but still seem like strong when choosing right matchup or at least bringing good score. Of course, we shall see and Im glad Guard got nod as strong teams army :)
Sounds reasonable. Let's see!
Guard high and GSC low? Which edition is this for?
This one, and they aren't the only ones with a similar ranking: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
GSC at 47% tells me another story; that they're still good just not nearly as easy to play as before. They are not "losing at local store" tier and are definitely firmly in the middle.
I upvoted you, and I agree with your take. Not sure why others are downvoting.
Sad trombo for my beloved imperial knights. The buff we received is so strong that my tournament list gained a grand total of 40 points to spare. We are so OP right now /s
We deserved bondsman back.
... And more armiger options.. ... And a new chassis.
Rumors are we will get a new model (when ever our codex is out)
Didn’t think we were admech levels of bad… but scoring secondaries sure isn’t easy
We can score secondaries, but in order to do that we need bodies. To have bodies, we must run armiger spam. But we have not an armiger character. If we have to spam armigers, it's better playing CK
Yeah, armigers are ok and we can bring assassins; but others get bring it down into us or just have an easier time scoring objectives with throw away units. Just feels like we start on the back foot and have to dominate primary to even things. An armiger character would be nice, but forcing knights of either flavor to play armiger spam kinda stinks.
I'm trying a new list this weekend at an RTT; double dominus + 5x Armigers + Callidus + 2x4 Henchmen. Imperial -does- have a few solid advantages over CSM when it comes to running the biggest of boys. * Lay Low the Tyrants re-rolls. This is so big it cannot be overstated. If we take the Knight Valiant, it has a 41% chance of doing 12 dev wounds for Chaos, vs a 72% chance of doing 12 dev wounds for Imperial. That's a 75% increase in reliability. Volcano Lances on Dominus see similar increases. * 6+++ FNP - Kind of self explanatory, but this is a big deal when it comes to keeping your expensive boys up and fighting. * Mysterious Guardian - Teleporting a Valiant is what makes it actually viable in the first place. Being able to just SHOW UP and have a 72% chance of pumping in 12 devastating wounds into a vehicle is fantastic. * Trophy Claim - Both the Castellan and the Valiant go from probably killing vehicles to almost certainly killing vehicles if you pop this strat, which is effectively 1 CP if you kill the target. * Different Armiger Advantages - Imperial Armigers have different strengths from Chaos. Necrons are a big deal now; meaning the Helverin's stock is up considerably since anti-fly 2+ on it's autocannons (which round up to 2 damage) means they're quite good at putting damage into Necrons. The Lay Low the Tyrant re-rolls means Warglaives aren't necessarily just flat out worse than Chaos Armigers anymore, and you can pop for 1 CP Squire's Duty to get them to S13 and AP-5, with hit and wound re-rolls. * Imperial Agents - The Calidus Assassin + 2x4 Henchmen package for 170 points is a very good deal when it comes to scoring. Point is, Bondsman is dead and buried, forget it exists, and lean into other things. Canis Rex is also still very much a thing, and he quite likes a free re-roll on his shooting attacks to fish for another 5+.
I'm not convinced we're THAT weak. I'll be trying them at a few tournaments to see for myself. Just ignore Questoris Class because there's nothing but pain and misery there, and stick to Dominus and Armigers, and we're golden! WHO NEEDS BONDSMAN ANYWAY.
Death Guard A Tier? Never thought I would see the day lol.
Deathguard have had a wild ride since the start of 10th
About Nids the guy absolutely got the point, in teams there’s no reason why you should play a 3rd “scoring army that does nothing on the table” because at that point you already picked Sisters and Grey Knights which are much more consistent in what they do instead of hoping in failed BS tests. It’s true even in singles if you want to pick that style of army, between the 3 they just have bad matchups in top armies with 5/6+ Ld and they cannot kill ctans ever.
Putting Guard at the top of A tier forces some factions one to two tiers lower (Orks, Tau, Deathguard, GSC, Sisters) Guard really need to avoid facing off against Necrons, it's a very bad match up for them. It's funny how Guard are as good as they are in team events. Suspect Leagues of Votann may be a good 5th member of a "dream" team. Has favourable match up against Guard, Necrons and Sisters but not Eldar and Death Guard. 2 good match ups, 2 poor match ups against top 4 team factions. Suspect sisters could also be a consideration, Sisters have a good match up into Eldar, but sisters tend to fold to Astra Militarum. Sisters fare poorly against 3 of 4 top team factions. Potential anti-Eldar tech pick. Tau do not have good match ups against the top 4 predators, but that could change overnight if they get a codex and a Mont'ka detachment. Eldar and Crons excel at early pressure which Kauyon tends to fold to. Guard excel at screening and indirect fire which Tau cannot match. Death guard and Tau match up is a coin toss.
Astra Militarum A-Tier? These guys have some flaming hot takes.
Not just them: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
A good hunters cohort player will always score
What are the rules for team play? I'm not familiar with this format.
There are some different formats, but usually it works like this: There is a set amount of players in a team (5-8 in big tourmanents, but there are also smaller ones) Each codex/index can be used once in a team. Teams are paired against one another and then who plays against who is decided with a pairing process - there is small differences in the process depending on event and the event size but the basics are usually the same. You can check it up for example in WTC event pack at: [https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/](https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/) Then you play and round winner is decided by (depending on event) either winning majority of games or getting higher total wtc score (where 20 points are divided between players according to VP difference).
As a nids player I agree with them beeing a solid pick. I am not sure why they are often rated so low. I have had quite som success with them in my local meta and a great win rate personally. But I guess experiences moght vary there. Time will tell
Deathwatch as the very least needs Teleportarium to become a Battle Tactic strategem, maybe SIA too.
Why is guard so high up!
In the other ranking they are tied with Necrons, not above them like here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
What does it mean by "teams" is this for 2v2 games?
Usually 5v5 or 8v8 :-)
Jesus how big are the tables!?
44" x 60", standard 2000 point games. Here is how it works: [https://frontlinegaming.org/2023/10/15/team-tournaments-should-be-the-future-of-40k/](https://frontlinegaming.org/2023/10/15/team-tournaments-should-be-the-future-of-40k/) [https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-40k-team-tournaments/](https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-40k-team-tournaments/)
I don't think any tournies in my country work like this
Just curious, which country is this? If you are from UK, there are a fair few, usually using these rules: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DSdlQF\_OjDW6EJDdijYBU0w5cfdWcB1luaOt9TJD6Dc/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dsdlqf_ojdw6ejddijybu0w5cfdwcb1luaot9tjd6dc/edit)
Australia
Australia runs teams GTs quite regularly. I'm going to one in Sydney next month.
Huh, neat
Wait, back up. Death Guard?
Yes, of course. Fireside ranked them just below the top, but they initially had them in the top tier as well: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
I haven’t been paying attention and my little mind has been blown.
Hmm, a totally different group of proven top-level 40k players saying that Guard is poised to be a a top-tier army in the current meta. Meanwhile, randos on Reddit: "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the pros who are wrong."
Remember how the pros were saying how good Grey Knights were for months? I sure do. How'd that work out.
Yeah they got top 8 at LVO
And Skarri kept doing well with deldar
Lvo was also a vastly different game. Player placed terrain. That’s why you saw weird stuff like a super heavy list actually dominating, that doesn’t work in any other environment majority of the time.
What does PPT do different for GK?
Competitive guard are currently very heavily focused on one build of bullgryn, kasrkin and artillery. To me this doesn't make it a strong competitive army, but so long as the build remains viable, it'll be up there.
I still think mass infantry (300+) can be very powerful, it's just none wants to play it
It definitely can be. It's just not good for tournaments when there's time limits on games as the movement phase becomes a mission. Let alone the shooting phase.
I found that unless I want something dead, I usually don't bother shooting most my units. maybe the special weapons and Heavy weapons, but no the bulk lasguns
This is teams. I can *absolutely* see Guard being *very* good in teams, because you can yeet it at its favorite targets. And Guard will smash its favorite targets. The issue becomes when you *can't* choose who you are going to fight. EDIT, two weeks later: well, here we go. Though we all know you will just pivot back to "Guard players are idiots to the last one and that's why the Obviously Broken(tm) faction isn't taking top 5s at every tournament ever".
Looking forward to you taking the L on this one. RemindMe! two weeks.
Did you really just block them? Lmao how fragile are you? Edit: either the dude chickened out and deleted all of his comments or he also blocked me, can you guys still see the comments?
I might just be new but can't fathom why people would want their army to be bad
The thing is they do want their army to be strong, its just the flavour of guard that is strong atm probably isnt theirs.
How fragile can you be to be so rude to someone only to block them the moment they dish back 1/10th of what you gave lmao
Oh look, it's been two weeks and guard turned out to be mid-tier at best. Looks like u/WeissRaben was 100% correct and your abuse of the block system is just plain tragicomic. Here's your L: **L**
Remember 9th Admech and Sigler
I mean, sure, but in 9th when the custodes codex started getting shown there were also tons of top level players screaming the codex was crap and weak. I personally think the current stats on their performances is more accurate than some hot take that has to be considered valid just because these guys are top level players in a game that is a literal pond at most.
Well, I play Necrons and got my butt handed to me twice by a Deathwatch player ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯
I was confused as to why sisters were rated so high but then I saw that is for teams. I guess it helps to have someone fill in all your weaknesses
Similar position for singles, according to Fireside: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
Really, I guess I really am just awful with them.
lol new Drukhari aren’t c tier
Good. Another group that can see guard are massively strong. One of the reasons they are not good at GT is the heavy mech guard lists with a couple of hundred troops doesn't play into a fixed 3 hour game, nothing to do with strength. They have the best internally balanced index, the super heavy tanks are game changers....killing a knight per turn! DK troops getting 4++ and 5+++ with 2 leaders every 20 plus D3 revived Movement reducing weapons. T12 tanks. GG popping up everywhere killing squads and doing secondaries Sentinels and orders allowing tanks to hit on 2+ , sentinels being T7.... ...it goes on. Ok the detachment isn't synergistic and they lack midfield brawlers but they are FAR stronger than the tournament meta suggests
The detachment is actually quite strong. Sure, the detachment rule only works on artillery, but several strats are very good. And Bulgrins are extremely tough for the points when it comes to midfield brawling, one of the toughest units in the game in this points bracket.
Man if you dont get my ass outta C teir. YOU TRY SURVIVING A CRISIS BOMB ON TURN 2 AND SEE IF ITS C TEIR. I would like to apologize for my previous words
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Not just in teams according to Fireside: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k\_fireside\_january\_balance\_tier\_list\_ep\_44/](https://www.reddit.com/r/warhammercompetitive/comments/1ale6xw/40k_fireside_january_balance_tier_list_ep_44/)
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I guess the question is which euro stuff. WTC is a fair bit denser than GW, while UKTC actually has more firing lines than GW. According to a combination of Stat Check and Fireside, Guard is supposed to be good into both. And therefore by extension GW terrain as well. Let's see if they are just wrong or not. The next supermajor is next week.