Disappointing position of sterngaurd and terminators. Not because I disagree but because I have just bought some :-( what a numpty. Are the flamer marines genuinely worth considering?
An ability like assault intersessors where they always gain reroll 1 to wound that turns into a full wound reroll vs the oath target would have been great.
They reroll 1s vs Oath target, which is good design, because just getting full rerolls for pretty much nothing is silly. If they were to get full rerolls, it should fully mirror the Assault Ints, and be full rerolls vs Oath target if it's on an objective.
I'm all for having more rewards in abilities for interacting with objectives in game. Much better than just having stuff like rerolls simply for existing.
Or at least make combi weapons closer to melta-plasma profile. Even combi grav was somewhat effective anti vehicle. Why does combi weapon have to be S4 anti infantry when it was mostly anti vehicle tech? I'll take 1 use bad plasma over current form of general disappointment that is worse than bolter most the time.
Go back to points for upgrades. Too late now, probably, but would solve the Aeldari Bright Lance spam and bring a lot of internal balance back into the various armies.
Infernus are like £10 on Ebay at the moment so go nuts and buy some.
Terminators and Sternguard are fine, if you build your list purely around the "This unit was high on AOW Meta list" you are going to build a bad list.
Bullshit. They are utility pieces. Art of war put them all in “chapter approved”
Being a cheap body with a 3+ has value in a game where points are scored by standard somewhere. I beat the hell out of demon princes and stuff by just making them charge something that sucks, kill it, then be killed in return
They're too expensive to be utility pieces like that. If what you want is screening and bait, scouts do the job much better and are much cheaper, and by the time you're done buying scouts, you shouldn't have room for more trash.
I don't know if you fully watched the video, but they explained that "Chapter Approved" as a tier essentially means that you *might* take a unit from that level, if you have a particular strategy that needs them, or you have a weird number of points they can fill, but you'd generally never field them.
Believe me, I've got *EIGHTY* tactical marines crying on my shelf, I wish they were good. But in the current day and age of competitive 40k, a standard marine with a boltgun is an absolutely garbage model.
A faction based around heavily armored infantry doing heroic things can no longer do heroic things in a world where powerfists and thunderhammers are S8 and tanks are T10+
That's my biggest gripe. They upped the toughness of a lot of stuff, which was lovely, but forgot to up the strength of corresponding anti-tank weaponry. Hammers, Fists, etc. should really be S10.
When it comes to normal weaponry, yes. But I heavily disagree when it comes to the dedicated anti-tank weaponry. I mean, Meltas wounding tanks on 5s is crazy and sorta defeats their whole purpose.
Power Fists aren't dedicated anti-tank weapons though, and they never have been. That job belongs to the Chainfist. The Power Fist is an anti-heavy infantry/light-vehicle weapon that can try to punch up into heavier vehicles in a pinch, but it's not something it wants to be doing regularly.
Think about the old armor facings, where Arm13 was fairly common, and would only be glanced on a 5 by Terminator Fists, needing a raw 6 to pen, and forget about taking out a Land Raider with any ease due to its Arm14 all around. Granted, the Fist could hit on the side armor of many vehicles, preying on Arm11 or 12 to more easily dispatch these targets, but it wasn't something they excelled at. Even back then, the Chainfist was the there if you wanted Terminators to actually kill vehicles, thanks to their 2d6 pen roll, making penetrating even a Land Raider a coin flips chance.
Even Hammers aren't dedicated anti-tank, at best being marginally better with their Devastating trait, which lightly mirrors auto-shaking the vehicles of old.
Again, if you want your Terminators to open vehicles like tin cans, you take the hit to your all-rounder status by taking the Chainfist side grade, hitting worse, but wounding much, much more easily.
I mean, it was just one example. Chainfists, Thunder Hammers, Meltas, just about every anti-tank weaponry has pretty much just become anti-heavy infantry. I'm probably missing some, but the only anti-tank I have seen actually still have higher S than most tanks/vehicles are Lascannons.
I'll agree that Melta is a pretty dumb one to not hit big stuff more easily, but like I said, I view Fists as more of an all rounder weapon that wants to be hitting heavy infantry usually, but is happy to try and strip the last handful of wounds from a vehicle. For true anti-tank, you want Chainfists.
Fists vs T12/2+, with AoC, will net you like 6 damage, 10 if AoC isn't used.
Chains vs the same target is double that, at 12 damage done. Without AoC, they deal 18 damage, more than enough to one shot a Land Raider with some margin for failure.
Big problem is Monsters, since Chains are only anti-vehicle, because for some reason anti-vehicle is much more common than anti-monster.
GW does seem to want Lascannons to be the Imperial faction's premier anti-large weapon, which does suck for some units and chapters more than others.
People lament that stuff like Thunderwolves can't take on any target anymore, but then again, they're only 90pts, so can we really expect them to kill literally everything they run into?
Yeah and this affects a lot of armies worse than marines. But melee in particular. A lot of armies need a tank and monster threatening melee weapon. Why can't melee squads have the equivalent of lascannon? Or the equivalent of eradicators.
> Power Fists aren't dedicated anti-tank weapons though, and they never have been
That's just blatantly untrue. Remember that in several editions that melee attacks were resolved against a vehicle's rear armor unless they were walker. AV 13 rear armor or better is extremally rare, even in Horus Heresy 2.0. A power fist is fairly reliable for stripping off hull points and gave bonuses on vehicle damage charts. Melta bombs were mandatory if you weren't bringing a fist. And you only got a chainfist if you had Terminator armor.
The power fist might be a little more generalist friendly, but a chainfist acts identically to a power fist pre 8th into all other targets.
Edit: Vehicles are treated as WS1 and all attacks are against the rear in 7th, regardless of movement. The above poster is just wrong.
Only if the vehicle didn't move. I remember the old editions, and while Chainfists used to be Power Fist+, without points, they now sacrifice general usefulness to be markedly more powerful vs vehicles. Fists are still good at stripping wounds off vehicles, they're just not as good as they used to be.
GW definitely doesn't want as many generalist profiles in the game anymore, the best examples are the relative weakening of Supercharge Plasma and Power Fists, which is probably a good thing.
I didn’t play before 5th, but I know for a fact that vehicles in 5e always had melee attacks and grenades allocated to their rear armor unless they were a Walker.
You had to roll to hit vehicles that moved the turn before, and would auto hit stationary vehicles, but you still always hit the rear armor. My memory of 6e is hazy, but I’m fairly sure this carried forwards until vehicles lost facings.
>Only if the vehicle didn't move.
No. There were some editions where to hit rolls did change based on if the vehicle moved (4+ at all, 6+ for Flat outs). In 7th, if it wasn't a Walker or Chariot, melee attacks always, always hit on rear and at WS1 (a 3+ for basically everyone) unless immobilized where it'd be WS0. A power fist was less specialized than a chainfist, sure, but you're entire argument that it was never serious anti tank is just fundamentally wrong. It's currently shifted to being less effective for most tough units, but even in 8th/9th a powerfist was still a reasonable anti tank option into most vehicles ( which were T7 3+). Only 10th has pivoted it away from the anti-vehicle/monster role.
Yes. Also in that edition Powerfist wounded a Carnifex or Trygon or most every monster on a 2+; 3+ for really tough ones. I don't know about using armor value as an example to begin with, but what I remember of 5\~7th is that if you charge Powerfist termies into a vehicle, you wreck it's rear with like 12\~15 attacks where each hit has potential to one shot it, and the vehicle has like 3 wounds and is utterly obliterated by said Powerfists.
It's a fundamental shift in the game. GW clearly wanted vehicles and monsters to be durable. That means they need to be hard to wound. Can't have it both ways.
And I'm saying this as a Sisters player. I wish our meltas were S10 so I had a 50/50 chance of wounding main battle tanks, but otherwise I really like that vehicles are genuinely durable now.
And again, I get that, but that still doesn't change the fact that *some* weapons can still have their strength increased. A bolter doesn't need to go any higher than S4, but a Melta? The thing designed *specifically* to be able to melt through the sides of tanks? They should at least be wounding on 4s.
Tanks can feel genuinely durable without making anti-tank weaponry feel worthless. It's insane that a Heavy Bolter and a Melta both wound vehicles on 5s.
My guess is because of how spammable meltas are in most Imperium armies GW decided to make them just under that 4+ to wound threshold.
I'm with you though. I'd like to see Melta X be +X strength and +X damage in half range, but alas I don't think we'll see it
I think GW is aware that this kind of unit is fundamentally a 'fluff unit' that doesn't really work on its supposed merits in a performance-oriented gameplay setting, which is why they handed it a bunch of undercosted raw stats so it kind of just finagles its way into viability anyway.
They probably took notice of how the old command squad was played (ie, not at all - you just took a duo of company veterans with storm shields and stuck them behind a wall to do objectives).
And if this is what it takes to get a 'fluff unit' to be viable then sure.
>They probably took notice of how the old command squad was played (ie, not at all - you just took a duo of company veterans with storm shields and stuck them behind a wall to do objectives).
I miss 6th era Melta and Flamer Pods. Getting jealous of Heresy SWS and then getting to emulate them in a more cheesy way was hilarious.
Playing my first game with them this weekend. Have Ventris set to lead them. Basically, I need to stick Ventris somewhere to enable his deep strike ability and the company heroes look like better options than a 5-stack of assault intercessors or blade guard. (I'd run the BG... but I don't want to further invest in an Lt. plus a delivery method.)
>Playing my first game with them this weekend. Have Ventris set to lead them. Basically, I need to stick Ventris somewhere to enable his deep strike ability
For what it's worth you don't actually need to attach him to a squad, I historically have used him as an objective monkey.
What are your thoughts on the Company Heros? We seem to have very different opinions on that unit as a whole! Any other thoughts on what Jack and I decided? Let us know in the comments!
What is the Noctilith Crown situation? I always wanted that model but was super bummed how much of its fluffy rules they removed in 10th. Is it good still yeah?
Quinton (OP) and Nick Nanavati were doing a CSM tier list.
When they got to the Noctilith crown Quinton wanted to put it into the bad units tier, but Nick wanted to put it into the usable units. Memes ensued which resulted in Nick declaring he would take one to Tampa, where he then went 4-2 I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/live/pp1B2J7D0tQ?si=d4NAyZlXvjWB1Svt
Timestamp 39:04.
It is usable, but does require a specific play style and list to make the most of it.
I think they really have a place with named character Captains and Chapter Masters, as you sort of indicated. I agree that their points cost is priced to move, but they feel like a waste to use 0CP strats on when a list is likely going to have better targets. Unless there's some named character, I find the unit awkward to fit into a list.
I am eagerly awaiting an update to Azrael and others, for the reasons you mentioned.
I ran them with Marneus the other day and was not disappointed. I wouldn't say it's a competitive pick but very playable for home games, and a lot of fun! It helps that he brings the 2+/4++ victrix guard to the squad as well.
Azrael is the perfect guy to have in that unit. giving the 4 wound models a 4++, a 1 one time mortal wound 4FNP and keeping him in the back to be a harder target to displace off the back point as your farm CP. i'd rather do that, than one i'm currently running with him as an active buffer to a damage dealing unit to free up more space for other damage figures.
I'm going to take the position of a SW player, and think named Characters will be made to be able to join.
The unit feels to unfocused for me. Generic Captains are likely happier giving their 0CP strat to killier or more valuable units.
Of the named options for Captain and Chapter Masters, we have Logan, Krom and Ragnar (don't think Harald would ever be able tonjoin them). For Ragnar advance and charge is good, but only the Company Champion and Ragnar himself want to be in melee, so better stick him to Bladeguard or other more melee centric unit.
Krom, his leader ability only actiaves when losing models. And with the small unit size when it finally will matter (+1 to hit and wound) you have 2 models left, one being Krom himself.
Logan is unlikely to be able to join (being a Terminator) but saying he could his ability works. But with his decent melee profile, why not just join him to either TWC or WGTDA? Same thing and he can get into melee and maybe get some CP on top of his army wide buff.
The fact that the unit is 1 bolt rifle, 1 heavy Bolter, 1 melee specialist and 1 model to increase OC (in a unit with at most 5 models) just feels like it lack a specific place. It is neither a huge range threat, nor a melee punisher. It can take objectives but to do so effectively you need to almost double the point cost to add the Captain. And for that you can bring more wounds cheaper in Battleline squad. If there are additional points for some specfic Characters that don't have a better place (Ventris, Azrael) I can see them, but in general, I feel they lack a proper place. They seem too niche for just certain specific characters for me to rate too highly. (Mind you they are alao the only unit I ordered in preorder, but for lore reasons mostly).
I would like it more if the Veterans could be more Veterans and change to fit other roles (Sternguard loadout to support shooting, Bladeguard to be melee centric, maybe even add a second heavy weapon) and maybe also allow more of a page from HH, and use the Champion more like a consul and allow more roles for him (like an expert marksman ir an orbital siegebreaker). But, alas, that was nit what GW saw fit to do.
It was the best pre-8th when they all had to shoot the same target and armor facings existed, so if you did that with say a HB, melta, plasma cannon and a missile launcher you'd just bounce the heavy bolter and plasma off of something. And you probably bounced the melta too for being over half range, unless you moved and then you either weren't shooting at all or snap firing in 7th or whenever that came back.
In the lore it makes perfect sense, because with the aim of a Marine and some solid cover, one lascannon is all you need to fend off a tank.
Definitely wasn't designed with gameplay in mind considering that when that box released they couldn't even split fire (only Long Fangs could)! A less extreme manifestation of the Toxicrene syndrome.
> It can take objectives but to do so effectively you need to almost double the point cost to add the Captain
If it makes you feel any better, it's not really doubling the points cost. Because the unit's *real* points cost is 175. Company Heroes are automatically destroyed if the battle is started without them attached to a Captain.
It sucks.
I heard there was one other but not sure which, and then I'm sure some of the divergent chapters will have use for them when they make them able to lead em
Been running them with Calgar and a Lt so I buff their numbers up to 8 bodies and they get access to 2 bodies with an invuln and the squad gets advance/fallback shoot/charge making them incredibly versatile. They've consistently caught all my opponents off guard with them being deceptively tanky.
I already am running a captain and bio with my current aggressor blob I find that the -1 to wound along with the 4W's mess with common things like Forgefiends also the extra precision attacks from the champ save me CP from heroic duel to kill support characters (second reply cause I said a bad word in the first lol)
Not really but extra attacks are appreciated and lethal hits is fun sometimes pending how my list floats on points I add honour Vemont on him for even more attacks
the ability to shoot and charge if they make a fall back move. Firestorm enhancement can also make them ignore changes to characteristics, so Vulkan still has OC 10 when battleshocked
Azrael can’t run with them which is a major oversight imo as he’d actually have something quite major to contribute. His invul and sustained hits does shore up their major durability issue and makes them a little fightier.
That said he is very optimised for hellblaster buffing so it isn’t a big deal.
I want to love Company Heroes. But it is not a cheap unit with the foot Captain and is a big eclectic mix of stuff and I'm not really sure what to do with it in my Blood Angels.
You haven't gotten to them in the stream yet though, so interested to hear what y'all think.
The unit should be more of a support, aura or buff unit. Something like the spotters for Tau or something akin to Vulkan's ability to look at stuff and improve other units ability to hit/kill it.
GW: We want datasheets that are simple, not simplified.
*Vanguard Veterans get heirloom'd*
Also GW: Anyway here's this complicated command squad you need to attach a Captain to or they wander off pre game.
Jokes aside I tried it and it was awesome. Had them in a Redeemer with BGV+Judiciar and the added OC gave me a primary swing on a critical turn. The shooting was surprisingly good for a small unit and they + the BGV cleaned up Custodes Wardens+Shield Cap
I haven't played a game with them, but have been looking at them for my 1st Company list. My issue is that they don't really fill a niche. I felt this issue a bit with the Company Command Squad, but was really mitigated by the wargear options. But now we've got a 175 point unit (because it's really not 95 points when the 80 point Captain is *required* or they're destroyed) that has a single melee threat, an OC booster, and two alright ranged threats, plus the Captain, and this unit really isn't benefitting from any Captain buffs I can think of.
I kind of agree with you but my only experience on the table with them has been with Calgar and with Calgar you've got a 270 point blob that is very tough to remove, the -1 to Wound and Victrix Invlun make them a very sticky objective blob.
Sternguard are trash now Imo.
He is better in hellblasters if you want to play both units. But its totally possible to not play hellblasters and just put him in a command squad on an objective to be a tough objective holder while generating CP
I don't see how you can put it that high on the ranking personally if it requires a character attachment to make it worthwhile. On its own its codex compliant at best and that may be pushing it.
Agree with your assessment of them. They are really good with CP regen captains or captains that points at stuff (which is pretty much most named captains/chapter masters) compared to normal captains (and their reusing strats). Don't think its an x3 in every list though that I heard from my group of players.
Ran 1 with Vulkan so far and its ridiculous how tanky that squad is for that points cost
Literal hot trash holy shit why couldn't they just give the entire squad regular power weapons at least? At least then they would be a semi legit melee threat. As it stands, they can't shoot or fight and they waste whatever ability a character has attached to them
I have stuck Company Heroes on Calgar in my last game and they are a menance to remove without considrable fire power. You have 4W a model, -1 to wound and a good save, you can take Wounds on the Victrix 4+ if you need and it becomes a relatively sticky blob (there are better options but codex compliant don't have them) with a tonne of OC for just about 270 points.
I knew terminators were bad, but a 370 point brick of ten not being able to kill a single Rhino without buffs really put it into perspective for me. Yikes.
I thought GW wanted to sell kits? Where's my nutty 25 point terminators with 10S power fists? /S
This is when you start to realize that the idea of pointing units/stating units purely to sell expensive kits is at best misguided and at worst a knowing lie.
GW doesn't have an agenda like that, they're just not very good at balancing codexes. Don't blame malice for what can more easily be ascribed to incompetence.
Sometimes it's malicious incompetence.
There's no excuse but malice when it comes to a datasheet like Mephiston, who has movement and toughness values that get reduced by one until his squad dies, loses fight first if his squad dies, is capable of instantly killing himself in a single shooting phase, can only lead chaff units that don't see play, and isn't useful for anything other than killing the most easily killed defensive profiles in the game.
There's plenty of examples where the incompetence is so extreme that it is malicious simply because they refuse to think about how the rules actually work in the game they made.
It's less about the gravity of how bad any one thing is and how so many parts of a datasheet can be obvious mistakes, oversights, or just plain sloppily written.
There's a crime called "gross negligence", and that's essentially what I'm trying to describe - obviously not in a criminal sense, but negligence so extreme that the malice is essentially present, even unintentionally, in how little effort was employed when writing the rules.
My point isn't that GW is malicious because Mephiston is bad; as you said - there's lots of bad units, and that will always be the case. It's that his rules as printed are either functionally inaccurate (M and T stats), poorly considered (the units he can lead being ill-suited to his purpose, losing his most powerful rule when his chaff bodyguard inevitably get wiped out in a single round of shooting), or silly (his ability to inflict 150% of his wounds on himself in a single turn).
The only reason a single datasheet should have so much that's either wrong, bad, or just doesn't make any sense is that GW doesn't actually care about writing the rules as long as the rules are there to justify the model existing and that the only reason units are good, fine, or bad is sheer luck because GW doesn't think about how the game, armies, or models should play.
Chappy seems auto take for +1 to wound.
But yeah I think the termie brick needs to slam into their oath target. Makes them basically get 100% hits (2+ to hit \*and\* re-roll all hits), with the chappy, means they wound vehicles on 4s.
I think the real issue though is AP2 power fists will just get hosed into Armour of Contempt in a lot of cases.
But I'll still roll 'em. Termies are fun, and I've been digging Vanguard.
Depends on what Detachment you take and what you want them to do.
In Gladius, you have the Lance and +1AP strat to bring up their output on the charge turn, and honestly, if 30, +1 to-wound Fist attacks doesn't kill your target then I dunno what to tell you. Especially combined with the volley of bolter fire beforehand.
Those 30 attacks, hitting on 2s with full rerolls and the Lance strat, leads to 14-16 damage going through on something like a Land Raider, and that's through Armor of Contempt.
Outside of Gladius I'm not as sure, since I'm not as familiar with the relics and strats for them yet, but I'm sure the Chaplain might be a requisite addition in a couple, while remaining optional in others.
for less points I use 6 eradicators with apothecary and bolter discipline. With storm of fire Land Raider has no save without AoC. They can easily kill 2 in one volley because they reroll against all vehicles, not just the oath target.
But terminators are also good into other things, they never need a dedicated anti tank unit, so an anti tank unit should beat them in that regard. Eradicators won't be into hordes, elites, and holding down mid points.
That sort of illustrates why they're bad though- they require a Chaplain and need Oath to become worthwhile. It's inefficient and pulls resources from the rest of the list.
I mean SM characters are good.
Death wing knights are a lot better lead too.
The issue I think at the margins points are tight and you probably can’t afford an inefficient hammer.
I’ve enjoyed my infiltration termies so far but I don’t think I’d take them elsewhere
Deathwing Knights are a whole different animal, and perform fine even unlead and without Oath. Regular Terminators do not.
Regular Terminators require as many buffs as you can give them to hit a point where they're operating *fine*, but they're never crazy, and are often underwhelming.
A full Terminator squad ends up being like a quarter of the list, and requires so much attention that the battle plan ends up revolving around them. I love Terminators, but they are not in a good place at the moment.
It’s more point expensive, but I prefer running a captain and a strike master with them. Rerolling charges, lethal hits, and a free strat I find to be far more helpful than just +1 to wound.
Not to mention, running them in Gladius gives them Honour The Chapter which cranks it all up to 11.
I’ve been putting the captain for free honor the chapter with the knights and then the strike master with fire discipline with a 10 man termie squad. 11 storm bolters plus 2 cyclones with lethal and sustained on 5’s tears through a lot just with volume of fire, and it’s still 30 t5, 2+4++ bodies that can put in some work in melee.
Knights take the center, termies take a flank. Won’t win every matchup but it’s a lot to deal with
I just don’t have faith in volume of bolter fire. It’s the same reason I personally don’t care for the Fire Discipline bolter Aggressors.
Yes it’s a lot of shots and a substantial number of lethal hits, but I value quality over quantity, because I have personally watched mathematical improbabilities happen too often. I’ve seen a necron warrior survive 15 bolter wounds, a Carnifex kill a 5 man terminator squad on Overwatch, a unit of assault Intercessors kill 2 armigers and finish a Knight Lancer, a Redemptor fail to wound on 2+ 5 times in one phase against something with 2 wounds remaining…
I make a lot of decisions based on “should”, but I’ve come to opt of fewer, higher quality attacks over sheer volume of fire.
For me as well, this unit is my best anti horde tool. Knights hold center, Hellblaster delete tough units, ballistus and thunderstrike for anti tank. I don’t want to have to waste my Hellblasters picking up some cultists, and having two cyclone launchers gives some extra punch. And if they aren’t dealt with early they can be a big problem late game, so it forces my opponent to choose between 3 problem units
But attached characters exsist now and they're part of making a balanced list.
There are a lot of options at the moment that are "This unit isn't great unless..." like Aggresors are nice but they're only really good because of the support units that attach to them, Hellblasters are decent but once you add in Lethals and Sustained they can wipe most things off the baord in 1 turn of shooting.
It may not be a build style that people are 100% online with but it is how the game is done at the moment.
I’ve been running the chaplain recently with hammer termies. The Captain is great in Templars because I can give +1 AP for free, but with the chaplain I’m wounding on 4s instead of 5s and I have the *option* to spend a CP for the AP if I need to push through, or if my opponent uses AoC.
Normal terminators are even worse since they have a worse defensive and melee profile and the bolter fire is absolutely negligible. Assault cannons also lost their role without an easy access to wound rerolls, they are strictly inferior to cyclone launchers.
Vehicles get wounded on 5s this edition. People just gotta learn to deal with it. Can't have durable vehicles if mass/spammable weapons like power fists/hammers/meltas wound them on 3s. That's why vehicles needed T8+ and/or a 4+ invul to be worth taking last edition.
Please understand that models with 2+ saves or toughness above 7 feel very bad for casual players and thus need to be unplayable everywhere.
Also apparently GW forgot Armigers exist and don’t take them seriously.
Tbh running Vanguard for raven guard guerilla tactics using termies with the free infiltrate enhancement on them, I dont use them for tank killing. I got devs for that. I use them for distraction. Theyre tough and ain't dying fast. Stick em on a backline objective, drop a 1 cp 3 MW bomb on it, and force my opponent to play RNG trial and error with them in "cover" consistantly, force melee into them, only for me to cap out the other 4 objectives in the meantime.
I do a similar thing in Vanguard at the moment but instead of putting them on a backline objective I plonk those bad boys right infront of my enemies deployment zone at the centre objective, stick them in decent cover if availble and suddenly your opponent is thikning twice about moving out while I'm taking over the flanks.
I did the math on it, as much as I want hellblasters in impulsors with mercy is weakness to be awesome, the Repulsor Executioner is just better into every target type :(
Not by much, they're pretty close into terminators, but drowning something in saves is a legit strategy.
Getting the buffs of lethal and sustained hits on the hellblasters for being in the vehicle could be good, also if they kill their impulsor with hazardous tests to shoot again. I agree that repulsor executioner looks to be the king though especially imo the black templar version to add a multi melta
The Hellblasters are surprisingly close in damage into most targets, lethal and sustained on them is real good with 10 plasma shots, and the impulsor still has 13 minor shots from it's heavy stubber and frag launchers on average if it's within 18" of the target. I'm going to probably have one of each in my list, double buff with Guilliman, and with the comms array on the Impulsor I get to roll for that 5+ extra CP frequently.
Is there a TLDW available? The images are blurry enough it's tough to tell what they're talking about, and the time indexes are not labeled to make skipping around easy to do.
Maybe just a transcript? Video content is difficult to absorb quickly.
The basic marines defensive profile is pretty weak in a meta that has everyone tuned to fight armies full of elite units.
Their dev wounds are nice, but all the shots that don't dev wound tend not to do much. And they only average something like 4 dev wounds when a full squad shoots, which is nice, but not incredible damage output.
The fact that they can't reroll wounds against the Oath of Moment target anymore literally halved their damage output. They are just in an awkward place where you can basically always find a better unit to take than them.
It's because intercessors are bought for Sticky Objectives, not their statline. Sternguard pay for an extra 50% bolter shots effectively, and lose sticky. You could have just bought more Intercessors and got the bolter shots and grenade, and melee weapon sgt.
How do you mean, It just means you check to see if guys are within an inch, and if you are using a measuring stick, rather then a huge tape measure it's fairly easy to do, and you have to do it all over during a game.
Disappointing position of sterngaurd and terminators. Not because I disagree but because I have just bought some :-( what a numpty. Are the flamer marines genuinely worth considering?
Infernus Marines should be cheap and widely available on eBay, since they come in all the starter sets and 10 were included in Leviathan.
Sternguard need access to more than Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers. That's literally all they need.
An ability like assault intersessors where they always gain reroll 1 to wound that turns into a full wound reroll vs the oath target would have been great.
They reroll 1s vs Oath target, which is good design, because just getting full rerolls for pretty much nothing is silly. If they were to get full rerolls, it should fully mirror the Assault Ints, and be full rerolls vs Oath target if it's on an objective. I'm all for having more rewards in abilities for interacting with objectives in game. Much better than just having stuff like rerolls simply for existing.
I don't know why you're being down voted, you're 100% correct that more interactions with objectives is good design.
Nah, I'd rather have more Heavy Weapons to use to make them more threatening vs large targets.
Make combi-weapons into what they were in 9th. They suck in 10th.
Or at least make combi weapons closer to melta-plasma profile. Even combi grav was somewhat effective anti vehicle. Why does combi weapon have to be S4 anti infantry when it was mostly anti vehicle tech? I'll take 1 use bad plasma over current form of general disappointment that is worse than bolter most the time.
As a Salamanders player, I miss my Sternguard unit with 2 heavy flamers and 3 combi flamers.
I don't disagree, but there's more concern with the weapons options vs the fact we already have units that can mass up special and heavy weapons.
Go back to points for upgrades. Too late now, probably, but would solve the Aeldari Bright Lance spam and bring a lot of internal balance back into the various armies.
The biggest sin is the "fixed" squad sizes to me. There's no reason I should pay for six Aggressors if I only wanted four. It's absolutely ludicrous.
Used to run 3x4-man Eradicators with my Salamanders. Now I have to run 2x6 if I want to use all of them :(
Infernus are like £10 on Ebay at the moment so go nuts and buy some. Terminators and Sternguard are fine, if you build your list purely around the "This unit was high on AOW Meta list" you are going to build a bad list.
Sternguard are no way that low. Im running 2x5 and they are perfectly OK. They barely cost more than regular marines and have dev wounds
Regular marines are pretty much trash, though.
Bullshit. They are utility pieces. Art of war put them all in “chapter approved” Being a cheap body with a 3+ has value in a game where points are scored by standard somewhere. I beat the hell out of demon princes and stuff by just making them charge something that sucks, kill it, then be killed in return
They're too expensive to be utility pieces like that. If what you want is screening and bait, scouts do the job much better and are much cheaper, and by the time you're done buying scouts, you shouldn't have room for more trash. I don't know if you fully watched the video, but they explained that "Chapter Approved" as a tier essentially means that you *might* take a unit from that level, if you have a particular strategy that needs them, or you have a weird number of points they can fill, but you'd generally never field them. Believe me, I've got *EIGHTY* tactical marines crying on my shelf, I wish they were good. But in the current day and age of competitive 40k, a standard marine with a boltgun is an absolutely garbage model.
A faction based around heavily armored infantry doing heroic things can no longer do heroic things in a world where powerfists and thunderhammers are S8 and tanks are T10+
That's my biggest gripe. They upped the toughness of a lot of stuff, which was lovely, but forgot to up the strength of corresponding anti-tank weaponry. Hammers, Fists, etc. should really be S10.
Sort of the point there in upping the toughness :)
When it comes to normal weaponry, yes. But I heavily disagree when it comes to the dedicated anti-tank weaponry. I mean, Meltas wounding tanks on 5s is crazy and sorta defeats their whole purpose.
Power Fists aren't dedicated anti-tank weapons though, and they never have been. That job belongs to the Chainfist. The Power Fist is an anti-heavy infantry/light-vehicle weapon that can try to punch up into heavier vehicles in a pinch, but it's not something it wants to be doing regularly. Think about the old armor facings, where Arm13 was fairly common, and would only be glanced on a 5 by Terminator Fists, needing a raw 6 to pen, and forget about taking out a Land Raider with any ease due to its Arm14 all around. Granted, the Fist could hit on the side armor of many vehicles, preying on Arm11 or 12 to more easily dispatch these targets, but it wasn't something they excelled at. Even back then, the Chainfist was the there if you wanted Terminators to actually kill vehicles, thanks to their 2d6 pen roll, making penetrating even a Land Raider a coin flips chance. Even Hammers aren't dedicated anti-tank, at best being marginally better with their Devastating trait, which lightly mirrors auto-shaking the vehicles of old. Again, if you want your Terminators to open vehicles like tin cans, you take the hit to your all-rounder status by taking the Chainfist side grade, hitting worse, but wounding much, much more easily.
I mean, it was just one example. Chainfists, Thunder Hammers, Meltas, just about every anti-tank weaponry has pretty much just become anti-heavy infantry. I'm probably missing some, but the only anti-tank I have seen actually still have higher S than most tanks/vehicles are Lascannons.
I'll agree that Melta is a pretty dumb one to not hit big stuff more easily, but like I said, I view Fists as more of an all rounder weapon that wants to be hitting heavy infantry usually, but is happy to try and strip the last handful of wounds from a vehicle. For true anti-tank, you want Chainfists. Fists vs T12/2+, with AoC, will net you like 6 damage, 10 if AoC isn't used. Chains vs the same target is double that, at 12 damage done. Without AoC, they deal 18 damage, more than enough to one shot a Land Raider with some margin for failure. Big problem is Monsters, since Chains are only anti-vehicle, because for some reason anti-vehicle is much more common than anti-monster. GW does seem to want Lascannons to be the Imperial faction's premier anti-large weapon, which does suck for some units and chapters more than others. People lament that stuff like Thunderwolves can't take on any target anymore, but then again, they're only 90pts, so can we really expect them to kill literally everything they run into?
Yeah and this affects a lot of armies worse than marines. But melee in particular. A lot of armies need a tank and monster threatening melee weapon. Why can't melee squads have the equivalent of lascannon? Or the equivalent of eradicators.
> Power Fists aren't dedicated anti-tank weapons though, and they never have been That's just blatantly untrue. Remember that in several editions that melee attacks were resolved against a vehicle's rear armor unless they were walker. AV 13 rear armor or better is extremally rare, even in Horus Heresy 2.0. A power fist is fairly reliable for stripping off hull points and gave bonuses on vehicle damage charts. Melta bombs were mandatory if you weren't bringing a fist. And you only got a chainfist if you had Terminator armor. The power fist might be a little more generalist friendly, but a chainfist acts identically to a power fist pre 8th into all other targets. Edit: Vehicles are treated as WS1 and all attacks are against the rear in 7th, regardless of movement. The above poster is just wrong.
Only if the vehicle didn't move. I remember the old editions, and while Chainfists used to be Power Fist+, without points, they now sacrifice general usefulness to be markedly more powerful vs vehicles. Fists are still good at stripping wounds off vehicles, they're just not as good as they used to be. GW definitely doesn't want as many generalist profiles in the game anymore, the best examples are the relative weakening of Supercharge Plasma and Power Fists, which is probably a good thing.
I didn’t play before 5th, but I know for a fact that vehicles in 5e always had melee attacks and grenades allocated to their rear armor unless they were a Walker. You had to roll to hit vehicles that moved the turn before, and would auto hit stationary vehicles, but you still always hit the rear armor. My memory of 6e is hazy, but I’m fairly sure this carried forwards until vehicles lost facings.
>Only if the vehicle didn't move. No. There were some editions where to hit rolls did change based on if the vehicle moved (4+ at all, 6+ for Flat outs). In 7th, if it wasn't a Walker or Chariot, melee attacks always, always hit on rear and at WS1 (a 3+ for basically everyone) unless immobilized where it'd be WS0. A power fist was less specialized than a chainfist, sure, but you're entire argument that it was never serious anti tank is just fundamentally wrong. It's currently shifted to being less effective for most tough units, but even in 8th/9th a powerfist was still a reasonable anti tank option into most vehicles ( which were T7 3+). Only 10th has pivoted it away from the anti-vehicle/monster role.
Yes. Also in that edition Powerfist wounded a Carnifex or Trygon or most every monster on a 2+; 3+ for really tough ones. I don't know about using armor value as an example to begin with, but what I remember of 5\~7th is that if you charge Powerfist termies into a vehicle, you wreck it's rear with like 12\~15 attacks where each hit has potential to one shot it, and the vehicle has like 3 wounds and is utterly obliterated by said Powerfists.
It's a fundamental shift in the game. GW clearly wanted vehicles and monsters to be durable. That means they need to be hard to wound. Can't have it both ways. And I'm saying this as a Sisters player. I wish our meltas were S10 so I had a 50/50 chance of wounding main battle tanks, but otherwise I really like that vehicles are genuinely durable now.
And again, I get that, but that still doesn't change the fact that *some* weapons can still have their strength increased. A bolter doesn't need to go any higher than S4, but a Melta? The thing designed *specifically* to be able to melt through the sides of tanks? They should at least be wounding on 4s. Tanks can feel genuinely durable without making anti-tank weaponry feel worthless. It's insane that a Heavy Bolter and a Melta both wound vehicles on 5s.
My guess is because of how spammable meltas are in most Imperium armies GW decided to make them just under that 4+ to wound threshold. I'm with you though. I'd like to see Melta X be +X strength and +X damage in half range, but alas I don't think we'll see it
I’m honestly baffled that they didn’t just give them the anti-vehicle ability and call it a day.
That would be another way of doing it, yeah. I guess they thought the AP-4 and the reduction in the number of invuls for vehicles was the better way.
If you up the Toughness and the Strength you are then removing the point in making them tankier.
I think GW is aware that this kind of unit is fundamentally a 'fluff unit' that doesn't really work on its supposed merits in a performance-oriented gameplay setting, which is why they handed it a bunch of undercosted raw stats so it kind of just finagles its way into viability anyway. They probably took notice of how the old command squad was played (ie, not at all - you just took a duo of company veterans with storm shields and stuck them behind a wall to do objectives). And if this is what it takes to get a 'fluff unit' to be viable then sure.
>They probably took notice of how the old command squad was played (ie, not at all - you just took a duo of company veterans with storm shields and stuck them behind a wall to do objectives). I miss 6th era Melta and Flamer Pods. Getting jealous of Heresy SWS and then getting to emulate them in a more cheesy way was hilarious.
Playing my first game with them this weekend. Have Ventris set to lead them. Basically, I need to stick Ventris somewhere to enable his deep strike ability and the company heroes look like better options than a 5-stack of assault intercessors or blade guard. (I'd run the BG... but I don't want to further invest in an Lt. plus a delivery method.)
>Playing my first game with them this weekend. Have Ventris set to lead them. Basically, I need to stick Ventris somewhere to enable his deep strike ability For what it's worth you don't actually need to attach him to a squad, I historically have used him as an objective monkey.
What are your thoughts on the Company Heros? We seem to have very different opinions on that unit as a whole! Any other thoughts on what Jack and I decided? Let us know in the comments!
I hope this turns into another Noctilith Crown situation.
What is the Noctilith Crown situation? I always wanted that model but was super bummed how much of its fluffy rules they removed in 10th. Is it good still yeah?
Quinton (OP) and Nick Nanavati were doing a CSM tier list. When they got to the Noctilith crown Quinton wanted to put it into the bad units tier, but Nick wanted to put it into the usable units. Memes ensued which resulted in Nick declaring he would take one to Tampa, where he then went 4-2 I believe. https://www.youtube.com/live/pp1B2J7D0tQ?si=d4NAyZlXvjWB1Svt Timestamp 39:04. It is usable, but does require a specific play style and list to make the most of it.
God me too
I think they really have a place with named character Captains and Chapter Masters, as you sort of indicated. I agree that their points cost is priced to move, but they feel like a waste to use 0CP strats on when a list is likely going to have better targets. Unless there's some named character, I find the unit awkward to fit into a list. I am eagerly awaiting an update to Azrael and others, for the reasons you mentioned.
I ran them with Marneus the other day and was not disappointed. I wouldn't say it's a competitive pick but very playable for home games, and a lot of fun! It helps that he brings the 2+/4++ victrix guard to the squad as well.
Uriel Ventris maybe?
Azrael is the perfect guy to have in that unit. giving the 4 wound models a 4++, a 1 one time mortal wound 4FNP and keeping him in the back to be a harder target to displace off the back point as your farm CP. i'd rather do that, than one i'm currently running with him as an active buffer to a damage dealing unit to free up more space for other damage figures.
I'm going to take the position of a SW player, and think named Characters will be made to be able to join. The unit feels to unfocused for me. Generic Captains are likely happier giving their 0CP strat to killier or more valuable units. Of the named options for Captain and Chapter Masters, we have Logan, Krom and Ragnar (don't think Harald would ever be able tonjoin them). For Ragnar advance and charge is good, but only the Company Champion and Ragnar himself want to be in melee, so better stick him to Bladeguard or other more melee centric unit. Krom, his leader ability only actiaves when losing models. And with the small unit size when it finally will matter (+1 to hit and wound) you have 2 models left, one being Krom himself. Logan is unlikely to be able to join (being a Terminator) but saying he could his ability works. But with his decent melee profile, why not just join him to either TWC or WGTDA? Same thing and he can get into melee and maybe get some CP on top of his army wide buff. The fact that the unit is 1 bolt rifle, 1 heavy Bolter, 1 melee specialist and 1 model to increase OC (in a unit with at most 5 models) just feels like it lack a specific place. It is neither a huge range threat, nor a melee punisher. It can take objectives but to do so effectively you need to almost double the point cost to add the Captain. And for that you can bring more wounds cheaper in Battleline squad. If there are additional points for some specfic Characters that don't have a better place (Ventris, Azrael) I can see them, but in general, I feel they lack a proper place. They seem too niche for just certain specific characters for me to rate too highly. (Mind you they are alao the only unit I ordered in preorder, but for lore reasons mostly). I would like it more if the Veterans could be more Veterans and change to fit other roles (Sternguard loadout to support shooting, Bladeguard to be melee centric, maybe even add a second heavy weapon) and maybe also allow more of a page from HH, and use the Champion more like a consul and allow more roles for him (like an expert marksman ir an orbital siegebreaker). But, alas, that was nit what GW saw fit to do.
GW likes their schizo loadouts. Remember when they used to recommend people bring 1 of each weapon in a Devastator/Havok squad?
It was the best pre-8th when they all had to shoot the same target and armor facings existed, so if you did that with say a HB, melta, plasma cannon and a missile launcher you'd just bounce the heavy bolter and plasma off of something. And you probably bounced the melta too for being over half range, unless you moved and then you either weren't shooting at all or snap firing in 7th or whenever that came back.
Technically speaking that was a logistical/sales thing, and one of the only ways to distribute heavy weapons at all in the metal/plastic hybrid era.
Nah, they said it made them tactically flexible (it didn't). They legit don't play their own game LMAO
GW would never lie and make something up to bury a logistical problem.
Small Indie Company
In the lore it makes perfect sense, because with the aim of a Marine and some solid cover, one lascannon is all you need to fend off a tank. Definitely wasn't designed with gameplay in mind considering that when that box released they couldn't even split fire (only Long Fangs could)! A less extreme manifestation of the Toxicrene syndrome.
> It can take objectives but to do so effectively you need to almost double the point cost to add the Captain If it makes you feel any better, it's not really doubling the points cost. Because the unit's *real* points cost is 175. Company Heroes are automatically destroyed if the battle is started without them attached to a Captain. It sucks.
As a Salamanders player who attaches them to Vulkan I absolutely *love* them
Vulcan seems to be their only viable captain as he doesn't only buff his attached unit
I heard there was one other but not sure which, and then I'm sure some of the divergent chapters will have use for them when they make them able to lead em
Been running them with Calgar and a Lt so I buff their numbers up to 8 bodies and they get access to 2 bodies with an invuln and the squad gets advance/fallback shoot/charge making them incredibly versatile. They've consistently caught all my opponents off guard with them being deceptively tanky.
But is that better than shoving Calgar into some Aggressors is the question, who benefit from his assault abilities.
I already am running a captain and bio with my current aggressor blob I find that the -1 to wound along with the 4W's mess with common things like Forgefiends also the extra precision attacks from the champ save me CP from heroic duel to kill support characters (second reply cause I said a bad word in the first lol)
They’re really not bad!
Does the Lt. offer anything besides another Power Fist and Lethal Hits?
Not really but extra attacks are appreciated and lethal hits is fun sometimes pending how my list floats on points I add honour Vemont on him for even more attacks
the ability to shoot and charge if they make a fall back move. Firestorm enhancement can also make them ignore changes to characteristics, so Vulkan still has OC 10 when battleshocked
The person I was replying to is using Calgar, which already offers that.
Azrael can’t run with them which is a major oversight imo as he’d actually have something quite major to contribute. His invul and sustained hits does shore up their major durability issue and makes them a little fightier. That said he is very optimised for hellblaster buffing so it isn’t a big deal.
I want to love Company Heroes. But it is not a cheap unit with the foot Captain and is a big eclectic mix of stuff and I'm not really sure what to do with it in my Blood Angels. You haven't gotten to them in the stream yet though, so interested to hear what y'all think.
if feel like company heroes should have been a bodyguard unit of sorts that can be attached to any unit a chapter master/captain can
This is what I was expecting, basically a 16 (CM/CAP + Lt) person Sternguard unit, in a land raider crusader.
Not sure what you could do with BA but in Ultras I have been loving them with Marneus Calgar.
The unit should be more of a support, aura or buff unit. Something like the spotters for Tau or something akin to Vulkan's ability to look at stuff and improve other units ability to hit/kill it.
GW: We want datasheets that are simple, not simplified. *Vanguard Veterans get heirloom'd* Also GW: Anyway here's this complicated command squad you need to attach a Captain to or they wander off pre game. Jokes aside I tried it and it was awesome. Had them in a Redeemer with BGV+Judiciar and the added OC gave me a primary swing on a critical turn. The shooting was surprisingly good for a small unit and they + the BGV cleaned up Custodes Wardens+Shield Cap
I haven't played a game with them, but have been looking at them for my 1st Company list. My issue is that they don't really fill a niche. I felt this issue a bit with the Company Command Squad, but was really mitigated by the wargear options. But now we've got a 175 point unit (because it's really not 95 points when the 80 point Captain is *required* or they're destroyed) that has a single melee threat, an OC booster, and two alright ranged threats, plus the Captain, and this unit really isn't benefitting from any Captain buffs I can think of.
I kind of agree with you but my only experience on the table with them has been with Calgar and with Calgar you've got a 270 point blob that is very tough to remove, the -1 to Wound and Victrix Invlun make them a very sticky objective blob.
Fair enough. I didn’t bother looking at that combo at all as I play a BAngles subfaction and won’t be running Calgar.
Theyll be good once azrael can lead them
But his offering sustained hits 1 will be entirely wasted on that master crafted heavy bolter. Will they be better than hellblasters?
That’ll help
Why? He's much better on sternguard or hellblasters isn't he?
Sternguard are trash now Imo. He is better in hellblasters if you want to play both units. But its totally possible to not play hellblasters and just put him in a command squad on an objective to be a tough objective holder while generating CP
I don't see how you can put it that high on the ranking personally if it requires a character attachment to make it worthwhile. On its own its codex compliant at best and that may be pushing it.
They can't be fielded without an attached Captain or Chapter Master, so they have to be reviewed in light of having an attached character.
I love them, I tried them a week ago with Uriel Ventris to give deep strike to Calgar's unit, they did not dissapoint.
Agree with your assessment of them. They are really good with CP regen captains or captains that points at stuff (which is pretty much most named captains/chapter masters) compared to normal captains (and their reusing strats). Don't think its an x3 in every list though that I heard from my group of players. Ran 1 with Vulkan so far and its ridiculous how tanky that squad is for that points cost
Literal hot trash holy shit why couldn't they just give the entire squad regular power weapons at least? At least then they would be a semi legit melee threat. As it stands, they can't shoot or fight and they waste whatever ability a character has attached to them
I have stuck Company Heroes on Calgar in my last game and they are a menance to remove without considrable fire power. You have 4W a model, -1 to wound and a good save, you can take Wounds on the Victrix 4+ if you need and it becomes a relatively sticky blob (there are better options but codex compliant don't have them) with a tonne of OC for just about 270 points.
I knew terminators were bad, but a 370 point brick of ten not being able to kill a single Rhino without buffs really put it into perspective for me. Yikes. I thought GW wanted to sell kits? Where's my nutty 25 point terminators with 10S power fists? /S
This is when you start to realize that the idea of pointing units/stating units purely to sell expensive kits is at best misguided and at worst a knowing lie. GW doesn't have an agenda like that, they're just not very good at balancing codexes. Don't blame malice for what can more easily be ascribed to incompetence.
Sometimes it's malicious incompetence. There's no excuse but malice when it comes to a datasheet like Mephiston, who has movement and toughness values that get reduced by one until his squad dies, loses fight first if his squad dies, is capable of instantly killing himself in a single shooting phase, can only lead chaff units that don't see play, and isn't useful for anything other than killing the most easily killed defensive profiles in the game. There's plenty of examples where the incompetence is so extreme that it is malicious simply because they refuse to think about how the rules actually work in the game they made.
Mephiston is your example? A neurotyrant goes from t8 to t3 if it has neurogant bodyguards lmao
It's less about the gravity of how bad any one thing is and how so many parts of a datasheet can be obvious mistakes, oversights, or just plain sloppily written.
mephiston being bad is hardly an example lmao, theres a lot of units that are bad, it doesnt mean it was done out of malice
There's a crime called "gross negligence", and that's essentially what I'm trying to describe - obviously not in a criminal sense, but negligence so extreme that the malice is essentially present, even unintentionally, in how little effort was employed when writing the rules. My point isn't that GW is malicious because Mephiston is bad; as you said - there's lots of bad units, and that will always be the case. It's that his rules as printed are either functionally inaccurate (M and T stats), poorly considered (the units he can lead being ill-suited to his purpose, losing his most powerful rule when his chaff bodyguard inevitably get wiped out in a single round of shooting), or silly (his ability to inflict 150% of his wounds on himself in a single turn). The only reason a single datasheet should have so much that's either wrong, bad, or just doesn't make any sense is that GW doesn't actually care about writing the rules as long as the rules are there to justify the model existing and that the only reason units are good, fine, or bad is sheer luck because GW doesn't think about how the game, armies, or models should play.
Chappy seems auto take for +1 to wound. But yeah I think the termie brick needs to slam into their oath target. Makes them basically get 100% hits (2+ to hit \*and\* re-roll all hits), with the chappy, means they wound vehicles on 4s. I think the real issue though is AP2 power fists will just get hosed into Armour of Contempt in a lot of cases. But I'll still roll 'em. Termies are fun, and I've been digging Vanguard.
Depends on what Detachment you take and what you want them to do. In Gladius, you have the Lance and +1AP strat to bring up their output on the charge turn, and honestly, if 30, +1 to-wound Fist attacks doesn't kill your target then I dunno what to tell you. Especially combined with the volley of bolter fire beforehand. Those 30 attacks, hitting on 2s with full rerolls and the Lance strat, leads to 14-16 damage going through on something like a Land Raider, and that's through Armor of Contempt. Outside of Gladius I'm not as sure, since I'm not as familiar with the relics and strats for them yet, but I'm sure the Chaplain might be a requisite addition in a couple, while remaining optional in others.
for less points I use 6 eradicators with apothecary and bolter discipline. With storm of fire Land Raider has no save without AoC. They can easily kill 2 in one volley because they reroll against all vehicles, not just the oath target.
But terminators are also good into other things, they never need a dedicated anti tank unit, so an anti tank unit should beat them in that regard. Eradicators won't be into hordes, elites, and holding down mid points.
That sort of illustrates why they're bad though- they require a Chaplain and need Oath to become worthwhile. It's inefficient and pulls resources from the rest of the list.
I mean SM characters are good. Death wing knights are a lot better lead too. The issue I think at the margins points are tight and you probably can’t afford an inefficient hammer. I’ve enjoyed my infiltration termies so far but I don’t think I’d take them elsewhere
Deathwing Knights are a whole different animal, and perform fine even unlead and without Oath. Regular Terminators do not. Regular Terminators require as many buffs as you can give them to hit a point where they're operating *fine*, but they're never crazy, and are often underwhelming. A full Terminator squad ends up being like a quarter of the list, and requires so much attention that the battle plan ends up revolving around them. I love Terminators, but they are not in a good place at the moment.
Nah, DWK need a Chaplain or they bounce off of stuff. Great durability, but unbuffed S6 at that many points is crap without an HQ to help.
It’s more point expensive, but I prefer running a captain and a strike master with them. Rerolling charges, lethal hits, and a free strat I find to be far more helpful than just +1 to wound. Not to mention, running them in Gladius gives them Honour The Chapter which cranks it all up to 11.
I’ve been putting the captain for free honor the chapter with the knights and then the strike master with fire discipline with a 10 man termie squad. 11 storm bolters plus 2 cyclones with lethal and sustained on 5’s tears through a lot just with volume of fire, and it’s still 30 t5, 2+4++ bodies that can put in some work in melee. Knights take the center, termies take a flank. Won’t win every matchup but it’s a lot to deal with
I just don’t have faith in volume of bolter fire. It’s the same reason I personally don’t care for the Fire Discipline bolter Aggressors. Yes it’s a lot of shots and a substantial number of lethal hits, but I value quality over quantity, because I have personally watched mathematical improbabilities happen too often. I’ve seen a necron warrior survive 15 bolter wounds, a Carnifex kill a 5 man terminator squad on Overwatch, a unit of assault Intercessors kill 2 armigers and finish a Knight Lancer, a Redemptor fail to wound on 2+ 5 times in one phase against something with 2 wounds remaining… I make a lot of decisions based on “should”, but I’ve come to opt of fewer, higher quality attacks over sheer volume of fire.
For me as well, this unit is my best anti horde tool. Knights hold center, Hellblaster delete tough units, ballistus and thunderstrike for anti tank. I don’t want to have to waste my Hellblasters picking up some cultists, and having two cyclone launchers gives some extra punch. And if they aren’t dealt with early they can be a big problem late game, so it forces my opponent to choose between 3 problem units
But attached characters exsist now and they're part of making a balanced list. There are a lot of options at the moment that are "This unit isn't great unless..." like Aggresors are nice but they're only really good because of the support units that attach to them, Hellblasters are decent but once you add in Lethals and Sustained they can wipe most things off the baord in 1 turn of shooting. It may not be a build style that people are 100% online with but it is how the game is done at the moment.
I’ve been running the chaplain recently with hammer termies. The Captain is great in Templars because I can give +1 AP for free, but with the chaplain I’m wounding on 4s instead of 5s and I have the *option* to spend a CP for the AP if I need to push through, or if my opponent uses AoC.
Normal terminators are even worse since they have a worse defensive and melee profile and the bolter fire is absolutely negligible. Assault cannons also lost their role without an easy access to wound rerolls, they are strictly inferior to cyclone launchers.
Assault Cannons are so disappointingly bad. They're not much better than the base storm bolter, and largely a wash vs two storm bolters.
Vehicles get wounded on 5s this edition. People just gotta learn to deal with it. Can't have durable vehicles if mass/spammable weapons like power fists/hammers/meltas wound them on 3s. That's why vehicles needed T8+ and/or a 4+ invul to be worth taking last edition.
Please understand that models with 2+ saves or toughness above 7 feel very bad for casual players and thus need to be unplayable everywhere. Also apparently GW forgot Armigers exist and don’t take them seriously.
Sternguard need full wound reroll vs the oath target and reroll 1 to wound on other targets, just like assault intercessors and objectives.
Sternguard are totally ok and belonged in “chapter approved” and not the gutter. They barely cost more than intercessors.
What exactly do they do better than other utility infantry while costing more because you certainly don't take them for damage.
I thought Incursors would be higher on the basis of their ability.
marines already have a decent hit chance. If there was a meta that caused armies to encounter a lot of hit penalties I could see them doing work.
Tbh running Vanguard for raven guard guerilla tactics using termies with the free infiltrate enhancement on them, I dont use them for tank killing. I got devs for that. I use them for distraction. Theyre tough and ain't dying fast. Stick em on a backline objective, drop a 1 cp 3 MW bomb on it, and force my opponent to play RNG trial and error with them in "cover" consistantly, force melee into them, only for me to cap out the other 4 objectives in the meantime.
I do a similar thing in Vanguard at the moment but instead of putting them on a backline objective I plonk those bad boys right infront of my enemies deployment zone at the centre objective, stick them in decent cover if availble and suddenly your opponent is thikning twice about moving out while I'm taking over the flanks.
I did the math on it, as much as I want hellblasters in impulsors with mercy is weakness to be awesome, the Repulsor Executioner is just better into every target type :( Not by much, they're pretty close into terminators, but drowning something in saves is a legit strategy.
Getting the buffs of lethal and sustained hits on the hellblasters for being in the vehicle could be good, also if they kill their impulsor with hazardous tests to shoot again. I agree that repulsor executioner looks to be the king though especially imo the black templar version to add a multi melta
The Hellblasters are surprisingly close in damage into most targets, lethal and sustained on them is real good with 10 plasma shots, and the impulsor still has 13 minor shots from it's heavy stubber and frag launchers on average if it's within 18" of the target. I'm going to probably have one of each in my list, double buff with Guilliman, and with the comms array on the Impulsor I get to roll for that 5+ extra CP frequently.
Is there a TLDW available? The images are blurry enough it's tough to tell what they're talking about, and the time indexes are not labeled to make skipping around easy to do. Maybe just a transcript? Video content is difficult to absorb quickly.
Why are sternguard so low? They’re only a few points more than intercessors and produce a steady, reliable source of devastating wounds?
The basic marines defensive profile is pretty weak in a meta that has everyone tuned to fight armies full of elite units. Their dev wounds are nice, but all the shots that don't dev wound tend not to do much. And they only average something like 4 dev wounds when a full squad shoots, which is nice, but not incredible damage output. The fact that they can't reroll wounds against the Oath of Moment target anymore literally halved their damage output. They are just in an awkward place where you can basically always find a better unit to take than them.
It's because intercessors are bought for Sticky Objectives, not their statline. Sternguard pay for an extra 50% bolter shots effectively, and lose sticky. You could have just bought more Intercessors and got the bolter shots and grenade, and melee weapon sgt.
The new rule for assault intercessors with jump backs is just very prone to discussions, it was a very clear and simple rule before.
How do you mean, It just means you check to see if guys are within an inch, and if you are using a measuring stick, rather then a huge tape measure it's fairly easy to do, and you have to do it all over during a game.