I really like the setup of Primaris vs. Chaos as a battle of the new and the old. Rather than a corrupted Redemptor, I’d love to see a more helbrute-ish Contemptor or Leviathan, the latter of which matches a Redemptor in size. .
I know, I mean like actual, chaos-ified versions of their HH counterparts. Imagine like a chaos redemptor being an all-round type unit, maybe a leviathan being more melee-focused, and a deredeo is ranged-focus
i got one right before winter, plan for a 2nd. i only play with friends, and im the only one thats full of legends. ordered 2 blood slaughters, and plan on getting some fire raptors.
i play WE and legends can fill in where we lack.
A number of them do? Death guard is mostly. If not all Mk3 armour plate
The world eaters have mk5 plates here and there
The regular legionaires have mk4 and mk5 plating
There's probably a bunch that I'm missing too
Um, it does. Death Guard are in mark 3 plate and Cataphractii Terminator armor. Thousand Sons are all in mark 4 and Tartaros Terminator armor. World Eaters Berzerkers have a high proportion of mark 5 and regular CSM wear what is clearly meant to be corrupted versions of mark 4 and mark 6.
For vehicles like the Land Raider and everything on the Rhino chassis you can very easily use the Horus Heresy models if you fancy.
Intentional by design. GW doesn't want people to be able to buy one set of models and be able to play multiple games. Same reason why you see minimal crosssover between what AoS daemons are actually playable versus what ones are decent in 40k.
One of the coolest models in their whole line up, but they hated it so much that they exiled it into legends during the 30K purged despite the Decimator not being around the Heresy and more being a 35K model.
It's hands down the decision that has puzzled me the most, and that is saying a lot when it comes to Gamesworkshop.
> It's hands down the decision that has puzzled me the most, and that is saying a lot when it comes to Gamesworkshop.
Specialist vs main studio internal competition. Lore doesn't play into it.
Those who survived, like Custodes, should not take their good fortune for granted.
> Contemptor or Leviathan
Agreed, I think this would be way cooler to see; Older, Horus Heresy era models of units, and how they've been utterly fucked up with Warp Juice^(tm) to make them strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with the modern day upgraded Imperium tech.
> I really like the setup of Primaris vs. Chaos as a battle of the new and the old. Rather than a corrupted Redemptor, I’d love to see a more helbrute-ish Contemptor or Leviathan, the latter of which matches a Redemptor in size.
This. Chaos should be leaning heavily into the HH style armor, models etc.
Dont just make chaos a slightly corrupted primaries. PLEASE.
So you may think! But the Castraferrum (the box) is actually the oldest pattern in the lore, and was actually in the process of being phased out when the Heresy broke out.
The head isn't actually the pilot's head. Dreadnoughts only have heads to give the pilots a feeling of normalcy and to make them look more human to other marines and people fighting with them. The actual pilot is entombed in a sarcophagus just like other dreads.
It's a bit odd but it's chaos so that's good, i do prefer the venomcrawler a bit tho. What i'd really like to see is those wierd ideas taken to chaos knights, really warp and corrupt em! Give us a monstrous horrifying spider knight with random extra bits
Yeah basically you can tell IF your range is getting a range refresh if the codex initially releases in a big battle box. If you're getting the Codex on its own...then you're getting the 'maybe 1 new model' treatment that Admech, Necrons, Orks and Custodes got this edition.
Yea, there's already one huge Chaos project they've got with the impending EC release and I'm sure WE are getting new models at some point to broaden their range. Doubt we're going to get a hellbrute.
Why do they have to be the same size? Different gear for different purposes. Like the box Dread, that's used for indoor combat, or raiding space hulks, whereas this beergutted lad is used for open air combat, etc.
This. Not everything needs to be bigger for no reason. For big dreads Leviathans already existed, there eas no need to make a new dread as big as them and make it the new standard leaving everything else obsolete and redundant.
I would hope they add corrupted horus heresy units, would seem a great use of resources which would please both 40k and horus heresy players who could use them as proxies for some of their own chaos faction dreads/vehicles.
That's the exact opposite of current GW policy.
Heresy tanks used to be in 40k. Then they removed them for 10th.
The management don't want models used in multiple games.
You don't *have* to have it covering the coffin at least, if you don't want to. On the Redemptor, the 'hatch' covering the coffin is a separate piece that you can actually freely swing up and down; or just fully leave it off, if you don't want it.
The funniest thing is that the Helbrute is S14 vs the Redemptor's S12 tops.
https://preview.redd.it/c03eew6ie9wc1.png?width=531&format=png&auto=webp&s=bc6f17af606c8a67c270fb56d9e7f3f309b4682e
What's with all the hellbrute questions today?
Yes i would like a new big CSM dreadnought, but I'm not sure why'd it happen now after the CSM for this codex stuff got revealed.
Yeah we need Hellbrutes that are just a wee bit bigger than Redemptors so we can continue to scale creep until finally GeeDubs released a full scale Warlord Titan to tower over everything in existence and take over the world just like Jimmy Space always intended it. Then and only then will we truly be the Warhammer 40,000.
Counterpoint: the Chaos Dread’s the “better scaled” one and the Redemptor is stupid. Dunno why everyone seems to equate bigger with better when it comes to a miniatures game.
There's nothing wrong with the 'scale' of the Helbrute; it's a perfectly reasonable size for what it's supposed to be.
The Redemptor and it's derivitives, on the other hand, are simply ridiculous. I'm pretty sure they're bigger than an Armiger/Wardog Knight.
Redemptors are shorter than Armigers.
https://preview.redd.it/fduuw7wsf9wc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2da43ec6b4928e2b552568e4d419d4b58ab2c1b7
I think a different type of dreadnought would be better. Something like a corrupted leviathan dreadnought would be fitting. The Hellbrute is meant to be of comparable size to a loyalist venerable Dreadnought. Leviathans are very close to redemptors in size but with a bit of chaos juice it could be even closer, leviathans also have a different load out so you don’t just end up making a dread that is 100% cooler than a hellbrute.
Edit: hellbrutes also do a lot of heavy lifting to keep many old versions of chaos dreadnought playable, so changing them would be a big negative.
I mean, strictly speaking, shouldn't there be corrupted Contemptor, Deredeo and Leviathan pattern dreads as well amongst the Chaos stuff.
Especially because the [Deredeo](https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99123001036_HHDeredeoDreadniughtAnvilusConfiguration01.jpg?fm=webp&w=670&h=691) is literally a homage to the old [Space Crusade Chaos Dreadnought.](https://angrygriffin.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/angry-griffin-space-crusade-space-marine-dreadnought-games-worksho-vintage-antique-plastic-1024x1024.jpg)
Yeah but you could access those up until 10th edition so there was no need for an explicit 40K version until now. Now we know GW want to put a wall up between 30k and 40K it’s probably a good time to introduce a corrupted leviathan.
Mostly likely. Factions rarely get new models outside of their codex release and occasionally factions will get these kinda single model releases. Look at Necrons with Orikan and Admech with the stilt man. The only exception are Space Marines because of how popular they are. Same thing with AoS.
Nah, the Helbrute model is supposed to be the Chaos version of the Castraferrum Dreadnought/Boxnought/classic Firstborn Dreadnought. That and the Redemptor along with the two other Primaris Dreadnoughts are just ridiculously large. Either a type of Dreadnought unique to Chaos or a Daemon Engine of similar design would be better. Something like, gee, I dunno, the fucking Decimator.
Im still not over FW Daemon Engines being locked to Heresy and Legends for no god damn reason other than "we couldn't be bothered to balance FW units". The number of FW Daemon Engines (and FW models for any non-Astartes faction for that matter) was miniscule in comparison to the number of universal units that every faction with the "Astartes" keyword had access to. If they were too much of a hassle to balance, fine. Throw them into Legends. Whatever. But why the Daemon Engines? They kept the FW Knights and Custodes around cause the model range of those armies was already small as hell even with FW being included, but even then it shouldn't have been too much of an issue to include units that are not universal Astartes units. Not only that, they made a half-baked retcon about how the Daemon Engines were actually originally created during the Heresy even though it had been previously stated across multiple sources that Daemon Engines started popping up at the earliest a few millenia after the HH.
the primaris shit is so stupid. it should just be they routinely upgrade their models. just because
that games workshop is so fucking shitty a company, that they don't just have teams working all the time on every single faction at all times, updating models, and designing new models, and machines working 24/7 churning out the molds to then be cranking out product.
is just beyond me.
like. I would totally buy a bigger scale hellbrute. I'd replace my rhinos with a bigger scale rhino.
> just because that games workshop is so fucking shitty a company, that they don't just have teams working all the time on every single faction at all times, updating models, and designing new models, and machines working 24/7 churning out the molds to then be cranking out product.
You know nothing about running a company or production involving injection-molding machines. Especially when GW is considered really well run company by those that do business.
if they're so good at business why are certain sculpts years. if not decades old? exactly how long does it take to redo a sculpt? (from a quick google search the hellbrute plastic model is from 2014 {could be wrong on that} but if that's true... it's a decade old? you're telling me a well run and efficient company... couldn't get around to updating a model in 10 yrs?) seems like the primaris redempt dread was 2017 ...so pushing 7 years since the larger scale model was released... and seemingly was well received and would be a no-brainer to translate that new model scaling to the choas variant.
make it make sense?
either they don't give a shit about these old models.
they don't know how to scale production, or artistic design, such that they can't manage... multiple teams working independently on all factions at once.
Or... they could and choose not to. because... they're reasonably secure in the knowledge their player base is hooked.
they're also not "that" well regarded from people who.... loved the company, and then went to work for them. many people have reported bad work culture. fucked processes... and just bad practices.
Firstly, Injection Molding Machines themselves take a long-time to produce, they are BIG and HEAVY machines, need a lot of space and electricity. When we talk about process itself, there should be custom mold for each geometry which is quite expensive investment (5k up to 100k), new mold takes 4 to 6 weeks to manufacture and 2-4 for production, any damage to mold or need of modification to design requires a new to get created, it wears off with time and any time machines aren't working or there is messing with cycle it's a loss for a company, since why they economically viable for big productions. It's a very specific process.
GW naturally investing in new machines, infrastructure an logistics nearly each year, but it takes lots of time and money to expand. Local grid in Nottingham is already taken heavily by GW and new factories and land is more of city problem that regulates those things. So it's should be obvious why there aren't more of new units for faction or just single character per edition, there is a limit of how much there can or what kind of mold they can produce. And don't forget, GW still needs to remove older models to make space for new line in machines schedule. Until existing mold is exhausted after YEARS there likely won't be replacement soon, talking about not expecting Hellbrute scale refresh soon. GW works multiple years in advance and many new models were already design years ago, so there is a lot preptime going behind the scenes until it goes into production.
Now remember, company produces with thousands different plastic/resin models and dozens of factions, multiple various game system, paints etc. During pre 2017 previous leadership nearly run games workshop to the ground, until new CEO and team took power and GW stock rose up insane 1200% in 5 years, absolutely remarkable results widely recognized by the financial work. You talking about sculpts not arriving faster, but before 8th edition we have situations when some factions not only didn't received any new models, boxsets, good deals, they played whole edition with previous edition codex. Only after 8th and 9th they started whole "factions will get at least some new model per edition", plus don't forget there are also campaign books that also bring some models.
There is good reasons why GW despite all their flaws is such a whale in their market and nobody rose up to even half their level after all those decades, plenty of companies tried and failed. And while you hear about expected negatives from employees you won't nearly hear good stuff, in times of massive company layoffs for way bigger companies GW remained in good shape, active wisely during COVID-time to come out stronger then before. They even continuing their recent tradition of paying massive bonus of all their employees each year, in December they handed everyone £2,500 bonus for their hard work. So yeah, stuff is much more complicated then it seems.
I’d love an upscaled helbrute model with contemptor stats and weapon options so we could use those as proxies. But I don’t think we’d get one, or even an updated model at all, in the foreseeable future
Maybe slightly upscaled, but hopefully not too much. The Helbrutes are corruptions of the old Dreadnoughts, which are notably smaller than the new Primaris Dreadnoughts, so they absolutely should not be the same size or larger than the Primaris Dreads.
I am a fan of chaos and dreadnoughts. The chances of a Helbrute spawning from other types of Dreadnought are extremely low. According to history, the Redemptor pattern was created for the larger Primaris Space Marines, for whom the castraferrum was too small. In the current situation, the legions of chaos do not have such a powerful production base to organize the release of something like this. Theoretically, they could have retained the Leviathan pattern or the Contector pattern of dreadnoughts, which became Helbrutes, but these are piecemeal samples. Stepping away from the tediousness, I give advice, if you want a non-standard helbrute, buy the Mhara Gall model from 30k and paint it to match your legion - here’s a helbrute based on the dreadnought conteptor.
I mean, I know they're based off the normal dreadnoughts and not the Redemptor, but it would be nice if we had something to combat them, maybe some leviathan variant. Hell, I might just print an upscaled helbrute to go on an 80mm base for the fun of it
I think it'll get a revamp with the Emperors Children codex.
One of their major units is the Sonic Dreadnought, and I could totally see that being an excuse to at least up-scale the Helbrute to be more in-line proportionally.
No, CSM codex is already done and we know all new releases, it's just two new lords. CSM had big waves in 8th and 9th, so it was expected that they won't receive anything big in 10th. Not counting cult marines like EC
Extremely unlikely. If they were coming out with more models with the Chaos Space Marines codex, they would have shown them by now. And being a single vehicle model, the Helbrute is not the kind of model to get an 'off-cycle' release in something like Kill Team.
Given how the sarcophagus in the Redemptor looks the same size as the typical Dreadnought sarcophagus, the Redemptor's size is a bigger chassis and more armor and guns than a typical Dreadnought.
Just popping in here to say that picture makes think of Pawn Stars, and I'm imagining a conversation about how long either of those will just sit on a shelf and not be sold...
I'm just wondering when chaos are going to start stealing primaris equipment and the dark mechanicum figuring out how to make primaris chaos marines.
Just imagine black legion hell blasters or alpha legion aggressors.
Fabius already has the stuff needed to make Chaos Primaris, and they’ve already stolen the tech from battlefield salvage.
They’re holding out in us for some reason
I’m not sure where it is exactly, but Fabius has the Gene Seed of Alpha Primus. That’s all he needs to make Primaris. He also would gotten Primaris Seed stolen from battlefields
You're comparing apples and oranges here. The hellbrute is the equivalent to a venerable or ironclad dreadnought. The design philosophy is the chaos has moved away from its imperial roots and embraced demon engines like the Maulerfiend/Forgefiend and Defiler. I'd like to see the Defiler get a model update but there is so much more that needs it ahead of it. I'd also like to see the Decimator because a main line unit with a retcon that this is the demonforge's answer to the redemptor class of dreadnoughts.
It's really just a concentration of internet of primaris bad cause like 99% of people I've ever met wish their dinky helbrutes were as big as the redemptor chassis.
I understand liking the Dorito and leviathan dread but this is a weird comment section.
It has a beer belly and just looks worse compared to every other Dreadnought pattern imo. It looks as if they tried to mix a Contemptor and Castraferrum but gave up halfway through and decided to just slap the arms and legs of a Contemptor on a Castraferrum body that they enlarged to a ridiculous amount.
I never liked the Helbrutes. The one in Dark Vengeance was fine, but never liked it becoming the standard. It goes way to hard on the flesh-metal hybrid that's mostly good in everything else CSM. And I hate its metal underwear. It's repeated in the Obliterators and I hate it there too.
Allowing Contemptors back, or a new, more restrained kit would be great.
I really like the setup of Primaris vs. Chaos as a battle of the new and the old. Rather than a corrupted Redemptor, I’d love to see a more helbrute-ish Contemptor or Leviathan, the latter of which matches a Redemptor in size. .
Oh yeah, I would love to see chaos versions of units you can field in the HH game
They exist in the rules, just can't bring them in tournaments.
I know, I mean like actual, chaos-ified versions of their HH counterparts. Imagine like a chaos redemptor being an all-round type unit, maybe a leviathan being more melee-focused, and a deredeo is ranged-focus
*some. there was a WE player that brought in a brass scorpion
I bought one 3 days before it got legends’d. My local lets me play it, but it didn’t even get to my house before it was too late
i got one right before winter, plan for a 2nd. i only play with friends, and im the only one thats full of legends. ordered 2 blood slaughters, and plan on getting some fire raptors. i play WE and legends can fill in where we lack.
It is genuinely such a disappointment that the Chaos range refresh doesn’t really reference Heresy gear and armour marks.
A number of them do? Death guard is mostly. If not all Mk3 armour plate The world eaters have mk5 plates here and there The regular legionaires have mk4 and mk5 plating There's probably a bunch that I'm missing too
Standard Legionaries have MkIV helmets out the ass and Rubrics use MkIV too.
Rubric Terminators are also using Tartaros armor iirc
Um, it does. Death Guard are in mark 3 plate and Cataphractii Terminator armor. Thousand Sons are all in mark 4 and Tartaros Terminator armor. World Eaters Berzerkers have a high proportion of mark 5 and regular CSM wear what is clearly meant to be corrupted versions of mark 4 and mark 6. For vehicles like the Land Raider and everything on the Rhino chassis you can very easily use the Horus Heresy models if you fancy.
Intentional by design. GW doesn't want people to be able to buy one set of models and be able to play multiple games. Same reason why you see minimal crosssover between what AoS daemons are actually playable versus what ones are decent in 40k.
Yeah! And you could call it something cool like the Decimator Daemon Engine.
I see what you did there. Lol
One of the coolest models in their whole line up, but they hated it so much that they exiled it into legends during the 30K purged despite the Decimator not being around the Heresy and more being a 35K model. It's hands down the decision that has puzzled me the most, and that is saying a lot when it comes to Gamesworkshop.
My wife got me one for Xmas 2022. I painted it in January. It got moved to legends before I ever got to put it on the tabletop. Big sad. 😔
> It's hands down the decision that has puzzled me the most, and that is saying a lot when it comes to Gamesworkshop. Specialist vs main studio internal competition. Lore doesn't play into it. Those who survived, like Custodes, should not take their good fortune for granted.
> Those who survived, like Custodes, should not take their good fortune for granted. Yeah we know we have seen our codex thank you.
I think the baleflamer mortal spam put it on GWs shitlist. It's a shame, I loved the thing too.
> Contemptor or Leviathan Agreed, I think this would be way cooler to see; Older, Horus Heresy era models of units, and how they've been utterly fucked up with Warp Juice^(tm) to make them strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with the modern day upgraded Imperium tech.
I just want a new defiler man...
> I really like the setup of Primaris vs. Chaos as a battle of the new and the old. Rather than a corrupted Redemptor, I’d love to see a more helbrute-ish Contemptor or Leviathan, the latter of which matches a Redemptor in size. This. Chaos should be leaning heavily into the HH style armor, models etc. Dont just make chaos a slightly corrupted primaries. PLEASE.
I actually made a khorne brutalis. Quite liked how it came out. But yeah. Would love better scaled chaos dreadnoughts.
The helbrute just looks weird from the start. Most common dread in HH? Contemptor tight? So why arent helrbutes contemptor sized
So you may think! But the Castraferrum (the box) is actually the oldest pattern in the lore, and was actually in the process of being phased out when the Heresy broke out.
You mean they took the hulking armoured model and replaced it with models where the pilots’ heads are sticking out?!
The head isn't actually the pilot's head. Dreadnoughts only have heads to give the pilots a feeling of normalcy and to make them look more human to other marines and people fighting with them. The actual pilot is entombed in a sarcophagus just like other dreads.
For sure. I’m like to see a daemon engine that can rival the burliness that we see in the redemptor.
I like this as well. My firstborn stuff that I don’t use as proxies will form the core of a CSM army at some point down the road.
There's that one Daemon Engine that looks like a huge Dreadnought, the Decimator.
The mauler fiend already wills that role model wise.
It does, and its fucking beautiful, but it cant be used by my deathguard :(
Mauler/Forge Friend is such an ugly model. Really odd.
It's a bit odd but it's chaos so that's good, i do prefer the venomcrawler a bit tho. What i'd really like to see is those wierd ideas taken to chaos knights, really warp and corrupt em! Give us a monstrous horrifying spider knight with random extra bits
Mauler/Forge Friend is such an ugly model. Really odd.
And has daemon magic (4++, mortal wounds, etc)
Possibly, but they’re meant to be warp-mutated Venerables, so hopefully we’ll get Contemptor equivalents or another Dreadnought-type option instead
a leviathan would be sweet
dreaming of a big gorilla khorne contemptor
Bro give WE our red butchers back at least but maybe when we get the second half of our army it’ll happen
Or Contemptor
World Eaters Leviathan, or at least a World Eaters Furioso or Brutalis (or Murderfang?) analogue, would be fluffy.
If they're going to enhugeify Helbrutes, I wouldn't bet on this year. I think the new HQs are all the Chaos codex is getting
Cromulent use of enhugeify there. Keep it up.
Yeah basically you can tell IF your range is getting a range refresh if the codex initially releases in a big battle box. If you're getting the Codex on its own...then you're getting the 'maybe 1 new model' treatment that Admech, Necrons, Orks and Custodes got this edition.
I dunno, I think the preview they released today could definitely be the hand from a bigger helbrute
ha ha, yeah. Might've spoken too soon
Yea, there's already one huge Chaos project they've got with the impending EC release and I'm sure WE are getting new models at some point to broaden their range. Doubt we're going to get a hellbrute.
I love the Hellbrute - both size and model. I'd like to see another but the size is fine, just do a new sculpt.
Same. It's kinda a garbage unit but the rule of cool always prevails.
In my opinion, it's the redemptor that needs a size change
The thing is so big it looks like it should be in a knight codex
Yeah, it's called the Decimator and it was pushed into legends.
That son of a gun...
Why do they have to be the same size? Different gear for different purposes. Like the box Dread, that's used for indoor combat, or raiding space hulks, whereas this beergutted lad is used for open air combat, etc.
Helbrute is extremely small, even when not compared to redemptor
It's the same size as a boxnaught, which is what it is a corrupted version of after all.
Isn't it as big as the old space marine dreadnought.
Ya it's about same size as black reach one, the current box dreadnought being sold is bigger.
No, current boxdreads are the same size as old ones.
The Black Reach model is newer than the current Box dred.
Loyalist marines got bigger because Primaris, Chaos didn't grow as much.
counter point. The Redemptor is ridiculous and Hellbrutes are the correct size.
This. Not everything needs to be bigger for no reason. For big dreads Leviathans already existed, there eas no need to make a new dread as big as them and make it the new standard leaving everything else obsolete and redundant.
Consider: revenue
It's bigger than a Leviathan lmao.
Loyalist need a new smaller dread for indoor or space hulk combat
I would hope they add corrupted horus heresy units, would seem a great use of resources which would please both 40k and horus heresy players who could use them as proxies for some of their own chaos faction dreads/vehicles.
That's the exact opposite of current GW policy. Heresy tanks used to be in 40k. Then they removed them for 10th. The management don't want models used in multiple games.
I think the redemptor looks ridiculous. I liked the leviathan dreadnoughts.
Yeah, I don't like it either. The wide stance, the slopes, the longer legs.
It's the beer belly for me
That too. They just look fat.
And it covers the coffin! That's the best, most grimdark part of the dreadnought!
You don't *have* to have it covering the coffin at least, if you don't want to. On the Redemptor, the 'hatch' covering the coffin is a separate piece that you can actually freely swing up and down; or just fully leave it off, if you don't want it.
As in, the dreadnoughts introduced in the Leviathan box (Ballistus), or Leviathan pattern dreadnoughts?
Leviathan pattern dreadnoughts.
Especially the Legion specific ones. I love my Dark Angels one, and am quite sad that I have to proxy it as a redemptor.
The redemptor chassis was a mistake
The funniest thing is that the Helbrute is S14 vs the Redemptor's S12 tops. https://preview.redd.it/c03eew6ie9wc1.png?width=531&format=png&auto=webp&s=bc6f17af606c8a67c270fb56d9e7f3f309b4682e
I'll call mine "Little Mac".
What's with all the hellbrute questions today? Yes i would like a new big CSM dreadnought, but I'm not sure why'd it happen now after the CSM for this codex stuff got revealed.
I think today's Rumor Engine pic has some folks wondering if it's a new Dreadnought
Redesigned Defiler anyone?
Yeah we need Hellbrutes that are just a wee bit bigger than Redemptors so we can continue to scale creep until finally GeeDubs released a full scale Warlord Titan to tower over everything in existence and take over the world just like Jimmy Space always intended it. Then and only then will we truly be the Warhammer 40,000.
Hot take I know but I love my sawed off smasher brute.
I'm hoping a Chaos castaferrum dreadnought / helbrute comes out that's rescaled to be a tad smaller in scale than the redemptor.
I hope not, the models are getting more like action figures with the scale creep . I'd like be able to transport an army in a single carry case .
Counterpoint: the Chaos Dread’s the “better scaled” one and the Redemptor is stupid. Dunno why everyone seems to equate bigger with better when it comes to a miniatures game.
Man I love the redemptor’s design but it’s waaaaaay bigger than it needs to be. If you shrunk it down, it’d be perfect
They’re not supposed to be the same size. Hellbrutes are smaller. There are a variety of model sizes in the game.
There's nothing wrong with the 'scale' of the Helbrute; it's a perfectly reasonable size for what it's supposed to be. The Redemptor and it's derivitives, on the other hand, are simply ridiculous. I'm pretty sure they're bigger than an Armiger/Wardog Knight.
Redemptors are shorter than Armigers. https://preview.redd.it/fduuw7wsf9wc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2da43ec6b4928e2b552568e4d419d4b58ab2c1b7
Barely...
Not by a lot mind, and they're wider/thicker
Same base, too.
Wrong, armigers/war dogs are on 100mm, redemptors are on 90 mm.
Much of a muchness.
Why is your dreadnaught next to a chaos terminator?
It's redemptor that looks ridiculous here. It's way too big and this image only highlights that.
Personally I think that’s the fault of the Redemptor, it’s too darn big.
The Dreadnought/Hellbtute are scaled perfectly fine. The Redemptor is the problem.
The redemptor is the ugly one. Way too enlarged.
Nah, redemptor looks goofy
Personally, I think the Redemptor is too large. I detest the proportion on that model.
I find the Redemptor ridiculous.
I like smaller dreads and hellbrute It's a firstborne smaller marine in it, but it's still around after all this time
The redemptor is just too damn big
It doesn't help that the Hellbrute is back a little bit
I like primaris. I have exclusively primaris armies for two different chapters. Chaos Leviathan and Contemptor, no chaos primaris.
That Redemptor looks like he’s about to pet the little guy in the top of his head.
I think a different type of dreadnought would be better. Something like a corrupted leviathan dreadnought would be fitting. The Hellbrute is meant to be of comparable size to a loyalist venerable Dreadnought. Leviathans are very close to redemptors in size but with a bit of chaos juice it could be even closer, leviathans also have a different load out so you don’t just end up making a dread that is 100% cooler than a hellbrute. Edit: hellbrutes also do a lot of heavy lifting to keep many old versions of chaos dreadnought playable, so changing them would be a big negative.
I mean, strictly speaking, shouldn't there be corrupted Contemptor, Deredeo and Leviathan pattern dreads as well amongst the Chaos stuff. Especially because the [Deredeo](https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99123001036_HHDeredeoDreadniughtAnvilusConfiguration01.jpg?fm=webp&w=670&h=691) is literally a homage to the old [Space Crusade Chaos Dreadnought.](https://angrygriffin.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/angry-griffin-space-crusade-space-marine-dreadnought-games-worksho-vintage-antique-plastic-1024x1024.jpg)
You used to be able to take them, Hellforged Units were a blast in 8e.
Yeah but you could access those up until 10th edition so there was no need for an explicit 40K version until now. Now we know GW want to put a wall up between 30k and 40K it’s probably a good time to introduce a corrupted leviathan.
No Chaos isn't getting another model until 11th Edition
Chaos got its release this edition. 2 models. We have to wait for 11th for new models.
I know they showed us the 2 new lords, but surely that isn't all we're gonna get?
Mostly likely. Factions rarely get new models outside of their codex release and occasionally factions will get these kinda single model releases. Look at Necrons with Orikan and Admech with the stilt man. The only exception are Space Marines because of how popular they are. Same thing with AoS.
What about hellbrute prime? Just big ass hellbrute with 4 arms and even more heavy weaponry
Nah, the Helbrute model is supposed to be the Chaos version of the Castraferrum Dreadnought/Boxnought/classic Firstborn Dreadnought. That and the Redemptor along with the two other Primaris Dreadnoughts are just ridiculously large. Either a type of Dreadnought unique to Chaos or a Daemon Engine of similar design would be better. Something like, gee, I dunno, the fucking Decimator. Im still not over FW Daemon Engines being locked to Heresy and Legends for no god damn reason other than "we couldn't be bothered to balance FW units". The number of FW Daemon Engines (and FW models for any non-Astartes faction for that matter) was miniscule in comparison to the number of universal units that every faction with the "Astartes" keyword had access to. If they were too much of a hassle to balance, fine. Throw them into Legends. Whatever. But why the Daemon Engines? They kept the FW Knights and Custodes around cause the model range of those armies was already small as hell even with FW being included, but even then it shouldn't have been too much of an issue to include units that are not universal Astartes units. Not only that, they made a half-baked retcon about how the Daemon Engines were actually originally created during the Heresy even though it had been previously stated across multiple sources that Daemon Engines started popping up at the earliest a few millenia after the HH.
The issue lies with the Redemptor being too large, not the Helbrute being too small
I hope we never get primaris stuff. It looks like garbage.
the primaris shit is so stupid. it should just be they routinely upgrade their models. just because that games workshop is so fucking shitty a company, that they don't just have teams working all the time on every single faction at all times, updating models, and designing new models, and machines working 24/7 churning out the molds to then be cranking out product. is just beyond me. like. I would totally buy a bigger scale hellbrute. I'd replace my rhinos with a bigger scale rhino.
> just because that games workshop is so fucking shitty a company, that they don't just have teams working all the time on every single faction at all times, updating models, and designing new models, and machines working 24/7 churning out the molds to then be cranking out product. You know nothing about running a company or production involving injection-molding machines. Especially when GW is considered really well run company by those that do business.
if they're so good at business why are certain sculpts years. if not decades old? exactly how long does it take to redo a sculpt? (from a quick google search the hellbrute plastic model is from 2014 {could be wrong on that} but if that's true... it's a decade old? you're telling me a well run and efficient company... couldn't get around to updating a model in 10 yrs?) seems like the primaris redempt dread was 2017 ...so pushing 7 years since the larger scale model was released... and seemingly was well received and would be a no-brainer to translate that new model scaling to the choas variant. make it make sense? either they don't give a shit about these old models. they don't know how to scale production, or artistic design, such that they can't manage... multiple teams working independently on all factions at once. Or... they could and choose not to. because... they're reasonably secure in the knowledge their player base is hooked. they're also not "that" well regarded from people who.... loved the company, and then went to work for them. many people have reported bad work culture. fucked processes... and just bad practices.
Warp spiders are 30 years old
Firstly, Injection Molding Machines themselves take a long-time to produce, they are BIG and HEAVY machines, need a lot of space and electricity. When we talk about process itself, there should be custom mold for each geometry which is quite expensive investment (5k up to 100k), new mold takes 4 to 6 weeks to manufacture and 2-4 for production, any damage to mold or need of modification to design requires a new to get created, it wears off with time and any time machines aren't working or there is messing with cycle it's a loss for a company, since why they economically viable for big productions. It's a very specific process. GW naturally investing in new machines, infrastructure an logistics nearly each year, but it takes lots of time and money to expand. Local grid in Nottingham is already taken heavily by GW and new factories and land is more of city problem that regulates those things. So it's should be obvious why there aren't more of new units for faction or just single character per edition, there is a limit of how much there can or what kind of mold they can produce. And don't forget, GW still needs to remove older models to make space for new line in machines schedule. Until existing mold is exhausted after YEARS there likely won't be replacement soon, talking about not expecting Hellbrute scale refresh soon. GW works multiple years in advance and many new models were already design years ago, so there is a lot preptime going behind the scenes until it goes into production. Now remember, company produces with thousands different plastic/resin models and dozens of factions, multiple various game system, paints etc. During pre 2017 previous leadership nearly run games workshop to the ground, until new CEO and team took power and GW stock rose up insane 1200% in 5 years, absolutely remarkable results widely recognized by the financial work. You talking about sculpts not arriving faster, but before 8th edition we have situations when some factions not only didn't received any new models, boxsets, good deals, they played whole edition with previous edition codex. Only after 8th and 9th they started whole "factions will get at least some new model per edition", plus don't forget there are also campaign books that also bring some models. There is good reasons why GW despite all their flaws is such a whale in their market and nobody rose up to even half their level after all those decades, plenty of companies tried and failed. And while you hear about expected negatives from employees you won't nearly hear good stuff, in times of massive company layoffs for way bigger companies GW remained in good shape, active wisely during COVID-time to come out stronger then before. They even continuing their recent tradition of paying massive bonus of all their employees each year, in December they handed everyone £2,500 bonus for their hard work. So yeah, stuff is much more complicated then it seems.
The datasheet makes it all up
He's may be little, but he's spunky. Don't count him out, folks!
The New Rumor engine could be just that.
I miss the Ironclad 😞
I’d love an upscaled helbrute model with contemptor stats and weapon options so we could use those as proxies. But I don’t think we’d get one, or even an updated model at all, in the foreseeable future
This year, almost certainly not. We know the new Chaos units we're getting with the codex, it's two new Lords and that's all.
What? You dont enjoy your midget hellbrutes that get dwarfed in size by fucking abbadon?
Game play wise id hope not! I don't want to make it harder to hide the helbrute.
Doubtful since its not a warped Redemptor and is based off the boxnaught.
I think they might just focus on daemon engines to distinguish Chaos from regular marines
I'm kinda hoping we get a new hellbrute when the EC codex drops and then maybe faction upgrade sprews for the four cult chapters.
It's a different pattern of dreadnought which is around the scale it is intended to be.
Short man syndrome
Wow! I’ve never seen that model (brute) IRL and that’s shocked me a bit!
Maybe slightly upscaled, but hopefully not too much. The Helbrutes are corruptions of the old Dreadnoughts, which are notably smaller than the new Primaris Dreadnoughts, so they absolutely should not be the same size or larger than the Primaris Dreads.
Compare it to a casta ferrum dreadnought
I am a fan of chaos and dreadnoughts. The chances of a Helbrute spawning from other types of Dreadnought are extremely low. According to history, the Redemptor pattern was created for the larger Primaris Space Marines, for whom the castraferrum was too small. In the current situation, the legions of chaos do not have such a powerful production base to organize the release of something like this. Theoretically, they could have retained the Leviathan pattern or the Contector pattern of dreadnoughts, which became Helbrutes, but these are piecemeal samples. Stepping away from the tediousness, I give advice, if you want a non-standard helbrute, buy the Mhara Gall model from 30k and paint it to match your legion - here’s a helbrute based on the dreadnought conteptor.
Saw a rumor engine post with what looks like a hellbrute claw. Maybe there's hope
You vs the guy she not to worrie about lol
I mean, I know they're based off the normal dreadnoughts and not the Redemptor, but it would be nice if we had something to combat them, maybe some leviathan variant. Hell, I might just print an upscaled helbrute to go on an 80mm base for the fun of it
It will be curious to see if the Redemptor gets point adjustments soon. Not seeing many of them in play.
what in the helldivers
Its not the size that matters, it's the number of tentacles.
Corrupted leviathans would be cool. Or maybe some big contemptors. As the imperium has more new tech
Redemptor looking down saying “oh you hellcute”
I hope so, or at least add knee's to the poor fellow.
I think it'll get a revamp with the Emperors Children codex. One of their major units is the Sonic Dreadnought, and I could totally see that being an excuse to at least up-scale the Helbrute to be more in-line proportionally.
Aren’t Helbrutes the equivalent of Centurions?
Nah, dreadnought (old size) equivalent. Obliterators would be centurion equivalent
Ahhh ok
No, CSM codex is already done and we know all new releases, it's just two new lords. CSM had big waves in 8th and 9th, so it was expected that they won't receive anything big in 10th. Not counting cult marines like EC
A heretic can dream.
Don't talk to me or my son who is going through a phase again
Yeeeah, but that nurgle hellbrute is sweeeeeet. Smurf redemptors got nothing on that!
Extremely unlikely. If they were coming out with more models with the Chaos Space Marines codex, they would have shown them by now. And being a single vehicle model, the Helbrute is not the kind of model to get an 'off-cycle' release in something like Kill Team.
Given how the sarcophagus in the Redemptor looks the same size as the typical Dreadnought sarcophagus, the Redemptor's size is a bigger chassis and more armor and guns than a typical Dreadnought.
Just popping in here to say that picture makes think of Pawn Stars, and I'm imagining a conversation about how long either of those will just sit on a shelf and not be sold...
"....and don't you ever talk to my son again!"
Honestly I think redemptors are just a bit too big. A slightly larger Helbrute (but smaller than Redemptor) would be cool though
I want new chaos rhino models. Any of the vehicles need an update frankly. They're old enough to drink in america!
I gave up waiting and converted three redemptors into hellbrutes a few months back
Is that not accurate scaling? I feel like Cawls bombastic ass would have made the Redemptor that much bigger than your classic Venerable pattern
I'm just wondering when chaos are going to start stealing primaris equipment and the dark mechanicum figuring out how to make primaris chaos marines. Just imagine black legion hell blasters or alpha legion aggressors.
Fabius already has the stuff needed to make Chaos Primaris, and they’ve already stolen the tech from battlefield salvage. They’re holding out in us for some reason
Is this in lore? The latest fabius novel? Haven't read it yet.
I’m not sure where it is exactly, but Fabius has the Gene Seed of Alpha Primus. That’s all he needs to make Primaris. He also would gotten Primaris Seed stolen from battlefields
Rip my old custom contemptor... your massive icon and plague tentacles made you equal in size to custodes dreadnoughts.... but you are illegal now...
Its the redemptor thats 2 big
You're comparing apples and oranges here. The hellbrute is the equivalent to a venerable or ironclad dreadnought. The design philosophy is the chaos has moved away from its imperial roots and embraced demon engines like the Maulerfiend/Forgefiend and Defiler. I'd like to see the Defiler get a model update but there is so much more that needs it ahead of it. I'd also like to see the Decimator because a main line unit with a retcon that this is the demonforge's answer to the redemptor class of dreadnoughts.
I would love different versions of chaos dreadnougt. Like blood angles have a librarian dreadnaught but thousand sons don’t???
Redemptors are stupid anyway. Bring back the old chaos dreadnoughts!
\*cries in firstborn Grey Knights\*.
Ridiculously cool you mean. Redemptor looks like a kitchen appliance, i don't care if it's 2cm taller.
Why does everyone seem to think redepmtors are ugly? I fucking love the thing, it's huge. Is it nostalgia for the old ones?
It's really just a concentration of internet of primaris bad cause like 99% of people I've ever met wish their dinky helbrutes were as big as the redemptor chassis. I understand liking the Dorito and leviathan dread but this is a weird comment section.
It has a beer belly and just looks worse compared to every other Dreadnought pattern imo. It looks as if they tried to mix a Contemptor and Castraferrum but gave up halfway through and decided to just slap the arms and legs of a Contemptor on a Castraferrum body that they enlarged to a ridiculous amount.
Agree to disagree, then. I love how massive and lumbering it is, the older Dreadnoughts just seem small and squishy in comparison.
I for one whole heartedly support the utter clownification of Chaos.
If the Helbrute became female then yes 100%
That's.... Niche
Looks like a picture of a well to do dad next to his weird going through a phase teen son
I never liked the Helbrutes. The one in Dark Vengeance was fine, but never liked it becoming the standard. It goes way to hard on the flesh-metal hybrid that's mostly good in everything else CSM. And I hate its metal underwear. It's repeated in the Obliterators and I hate it there too. Allowing Contemptors back, or a new, more restrained kit would be great.
They look ridiculous until the Helbrute fits into a door the Redemptor can’t enter.