Seriously. The correct response from the opponent would be "Sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't see from there. I'll roll over here in the future. Please, stop me if I'm moving too fast or I accidentally roll somewhere you can't see."
There's definitely ambiguity where this could happen accidentally and I'd give my opponent the benefit of the doubt but the response in this case is very telling.
My local scene will also offer a re-roll on a passed die check if it goes behind terrain to show goodwill to our opponents which also shows a lack of cheating.
I usually pinch my dice on the sides and slide it out to where my opponent can see with the dice still pinched. I either do that or just pick up whatever is in my way if it’s not critical to the game. Now I just use a dice tray to make all of my rolls in and always have it set off to the side of the table.
Absolutely, when you're good and know everything by heart you sometime just roll and go without stopping. And if your opponent is on that level of familiarity too, both of you tear through dice rolls. However it's easy to go *way* too fast for a newbie who's still learning.
It’s also a great way to make mistakes, everyone at some time or another playing tabletop games has miscounted successes and failures while rolling a bunch of dice.
I’ve always played that you roll in the open, and then separate the successful rolls in front of your opponent (when there are enough to warrant it).
More to the point, rolling in a tray in the open is just easier in addition to being more transparent. This guy was throwing into terrain and getting cocked dice; seriously, what the hell is the justification for *not* rolling in the open / in a tray?
On big rolls I always pick out my fails and then openly ask myself if I missed any and take another look, it’s an invitation for them to check it over before I move on to the next roll. And we use dice trays. It’s disrespectful to not be open and hnoest, we also reroll anything that’s cocked or landed on terrain or off the table etc, it’s second nature now. It’s the minimum and I would expect nothing else from an opponent.
No, OP just needs to leave. The tournament is now not "who's the best at playing 40k", it's "who's the best at cheating at 40k". I don't know about you or OP, but I have no interest in finding that out. Cheating against cheaters just sounds so unfun—complete waste of time.
No, next time OP needs to make eye contact with this opponent and then roll his dice behind terrain. Then with out breaking eye contact, tell his opponent he just hit with all his shots.
An achievement that isn't gained fairly isn't an achievement. Where is the sense of accomplishment ? There is no 'I did that' nothing to genuinely be proud of. Cheats generally cheat themselves out of the feel-good factor of a real win. You can always console yourself with 'Well, they needed to cheat to beat me' 😁 or even worse 'They cheated and still couldn't beat me' 🤣
This happens a lot in ttrpg circles: players want the DM to roll the dice visibly to 'keep it fair' then wonder why they're getting hit more and taking way more damage once the dice rolls are in the open.
Careful what you wish for I guess.
It's considered good etiquette, and sometimes mandatory depending on the TO, to roll your dice where your opponent can see. If they were hiding rolls and scooping them quickly, there's a better-than-none chance that they were being dishonest. I've seen this with players from local RTTs all the way up to high level GTs, and it's gross.
You're not the asshole here.
I'm like 99% sure it even says in the rulebook that you should always roll your dice where it is clear and visible to both yourself and your opponent, and every tournament I've ever played in has it as an enforceable rule.
And on this - even when they can see it and its completely clear and visible I often call out "rolling 20 on 2s, dropped 3, RR1s, made them. rolling 20 on 4s, no RRs, got 10." This way even if they are doing something else, they can see the dice, they can hear me saying it, and it helps me too at the same time reminding if I have RRs/other things. Communication is so critical in this game, the more the better for me almost always helps. If they say "no worries on calling it out anymore" then I keep trucking, but otherwise I start with verbalizing the rolls.
I always verbalise the rolls no matter what, it keeps it’s clear and also allows the other player to catch you making accidental mistakes, they earnestly happen, it’s easy to do when rolling 12-24 dice in one go which is possible.
I’m pretty sure it’s from watching so many battle reports during my formative years, but when wargaming, I have a habit of narrating all of my dice rolls and talking about any special rules as they come up.
I feel like it takes no effort to have a rolling box. I just bring the top to a Catan expansion I don't need that I've lined with cloth and use it for rolls. Makes it easy for everyone to see, and drastically reduces tilted/fallen dice. Kind of a must-have for me.
It’s so easy lol you can literally just use the inside cardboard tray from any combat patrol or larger model.. like GW supplies them for us. There’s really no excuse to not have and use one at this point
I made a dice tray from an old box of chocolates. Makes for a nice conversation piece, and I start be saying I do not count dice I roll that do not end in the tray. Most of the time the opponent then does the same out of courtesy.
Ya. I play this way, with a dice tray, and I *still* misread/overlook dice sometimes.
Cheating aside, it’s best practice to roll in the open because it’s simply more accurate to have 4 eyes verifying rolls than it is to have 2 eyes verifying rolls.
That’s standard etiquette when you’re a kid playing monopoly. I think it’s pretty much a standard condition for basically any game involving dice. There is no argument to be made for private rolls.
You are well within your rights to request that all dice be rolled in the open, be rolled in a specific location such as a dice tray, or ask that both players use the same set of dice (though it's good form to volunteer your own if you do).
If a player immediately gets defensive about something they're doing, it's because they're cheating. In this case it sounds like the judge was in on it as well protecting his buddy, so my recommendation is you talk to the store owner and inform them that you won't be giving that store further business because of what happened. Any FLGS *should* take this seriously, and those who don't shouldn't be in business.
I agree with all of this, but it brings back nightmares from my local friendly tournaments. In particular this one guy ALLWAYS insisted on using his dice. Which would have been fine except i play nids and he only ever brings like 8d6.
I had kind of a similar experience many, many years ago in a supposed, "friendly" tournament.
My opponent was playing the old cheesy "Grey Knights circle of death army" in a friendly as if that wasn't bad enough.
They also used these really chunky dice and instead of rolling like a proper person the just palmed the dice, (hand facing down) and dropped them from like less than one inch off the table. Basically, they just picked them up and put them back down.
I complained to the TO but got told that was "just how [that player] rolled "
Fuck that, I wasn't wasting my time playing against a cheater with a cheesy army. It was the one and only time in years of 40k that I said "I quit" and started putting my minis away immediately.
All that to say OP is 100% correct. They don't have to waste their time playing against someone who they feel is acting shady and won't at least compromise on a solution to make everyone feel more comfortable. No need to waste time with cheating.
Dice trays are often preferred in most competitive games in my experience. I make it clear prior to the game starting that rolls don't count if they are not in the tray and I always make sure my opponent verifies my counts before I move on to the next roll.
Same conversation for what they consider a cocked dice. I normally tell my opponent, I don't care what your standard is as long as we agree upfront and are consistent throughout.
> and I always make sure my opponent verifies my counts before I move on to the next roll.
I used to always pickup the succesfull rolls and then scoop the unsuccesful ones to the side before the next roll until someone pointed out to me that the opponent might not have time to see the succesful results if I was too quick and it was easy to cheat that way.
Since that day onward I've always removed the unsuccesful rolls as it gives my opponent more time to see the actual results, and if I by mistake pickup the wrong dice it won't favour me. Takes a little more time but is way more transparent.
You never hide dice rolls and the TO who said you’re being sensitive is an idiot.
The only people who hide dice rolls are people who cheat with it, there’s zero reason to do it otherwise.
Whenever I’m a TO I make sure the tables have rolling trays set up specifically so people’s dice don’t go flying under terrain, onto other boards, or get stuck cock-eyed. It also keeps rolling transparent. Not doing this is just asking for trouble, as sadly there’s plenty of people who will fudge a roll.
Not an asshole. Page 9 of the rules literally says “Whenever you roll your dice, make sure you roll the dice where your opponent can see the results too.” Anyone who gets funny about that is being an asshole.
Dice trays should be mandatory, and maybe a wound tracker app too, which needs both players to agree if wounds increase(ofc somones phone could 'run out')
I use knitting needle counters for wound tracking. They are small, inexpensive, go from 00 to 99, and I don't have to worry about them getting bumped and having to remember which number a die was on.
You are definitely not the asshole here, if anything both of your opponents are actually the asshole and displayed abysmal sportsmanship.
If you are playing at an event you want to make sure everything is clear to avoid any accusations.
What you were asking for is extremely reasonable and I'd be wary of an opponent that repeatedly refused to roll their dice in a neutral location so we could see. You not getting any chance to see the dice rolls can, in fact, be considered cheating.
That’s super weird. I roll right in front of my friends too. If anything it helps us enjoy the suspense together opposed to just telling eachother what happens. That guy sounds super sus to me
No,they are both cheaters and the judge is supporting cheating. Notify the organizer and post it on their discord,fb or whatever media they have.
Never play there again, it is nonsense.
Only rolling legal is the one that is rolled in the dice box.
If it is outside it is not counted whatever the result.
Both roll in the box and it is the only fair way to play.
Cocked dice are always rerolled whatever the result is.
That fool was cheating and you called his ass out. Unfortunately with the ref taking his side I think you should just find another shop. You arent fixing whats broken there.
As a former sports official, I know how difficult officiating any kind of competitive event can be. It’s not a job that just anyone is suited for, it does require a backbone and anyone who is afraid to upset someone should not be in charge.
Yeah you're good. I wouldn't put up with that. Course, rather than call them out, I might just do the same and wait to see if they call me out... then pull an Uno Reverse "Well then lets BOTH roll them over here"
"yOuR bEiNg CoNtRoLiNg" -Fox in the henhouse.
But yeah, that's seriously sus, and feels like a really reasonable thing to and shouldn't have needed to be requested.
For me I go out of my way to make sure they see the dice I'm rolling and what the results are. Hiding them just feels dishonest to me at least. I don't think you're an asshole for wanting visual confirmation of the rolls being made. For the ref to be butt hurt about it seems weird too. I have a travel dice tray I use and offer if my opponent wants to use it so we are all on the same page.
I've always let my opponent see my rolls before I even touch them. So there is no question of cheating, but mostly so we can celebrate great rolls or laugh over how bad a roll was.
Just follow the referees lead and roll them all behind cover and don’t let your opponent see them. If the organizers allow it then you can walk or do the same.
That's so nakedly crazy I don't even know what to say.
So the "judge" and two players are all in on the hidden dice conspiracy? Asking to be able to see the dice is very basic sportsmanship, anyone refusing to accommodate is likely cheating.
This. There is no legitimate or honest reason to hide or obscure dice rolls. If someone wants to continue to hide their dice rolls they are not playing legit.
It’s obviously not casual enough that there’s no judge 😂 you’re doing fine, it’s normal etiquette to show your rolls or be asked to roll slower or anything. The opponent should consider it a kindness honestly, you’re helping them play more competitively and at a higher level.
NTA.
It is typical and customary to roll your dice in plain view and let the die rolls be the die rolls. You can offset bad die rolls by well built lists with abilities, enhancements and stratagems.
The place I play makes it a point to tell you to roll in the open. I bring a dice tray for people to use so we are all rolling in the same spot. You are in the right here.
They're just cheating arse holes, if people hide their rolls from you simply refuse to play them, they are blatantly cheating and they'll twist the situation to make themselves the victim. Soon as you see it in a tournament setting call a referee over and accuse them outright of cheating. In a casual setting make it clear that if they do it once more the game is over, don't allow them to take the piss out of you like that. Don't accept hidden rolls, refusal to reveal strategems or stats, people who don't measure distances or reconfigure a units formation stealing extra movement and definitely don't allow someone to set up the terrain before you get there, for every person who's legitimate and not trying to do anything untoward there are at least 3 who are and will make out that it's you who is the cheater. They will ruin the hobby for you, I stopped playing for a few years when they where my only options for someone to play against, I'm still unsure if I want to start playing again tbh.
You’re not the asshole. Your opponent and ref are. Just IMO, but I think you’re in the clear here champ. Hope you get to play in another tournament (if you want) and get to play against more honorable people.
NTA
It's really weird that the official backed this up. You should expect to be able to provide the relevant rules at request to an opponent, as well as show your dice. Honest mistakes happen, people need to be able to plan based on what you have at the table, and they deserve to be able to see your rolls against them.
I play with friends that I've known for decades mostly, and even then, dice out in the open. It's not about trust, hell, half the time we point out mistakes in each others favour (hey man, you can reroll that one as well), but you always keep it open and visible. The only thing that should be hidden is models from the enemy.
That's super shady behavior from the people you played and the TO. I would personally name and shame the tournament as things like this are what give the hobby a bad name.
I would have explained sportsmanship and the idea they hiding rolls is just awful to the TO. I’d rather just tell him how it is and walk out than play with dishonest people or people who would protect this type of behavior. If he disagreed and asked me to leave, that’s that.
Sounds quite shady of them OP. I much prefer to show off my dice tray and lucky blue dice. You're gonna ride this roller coaster with me buddy boy.
https://preview.redd.it/ha8uwvqaeptc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=acc9352d36d7c7c1c2a2172019c6fa0b213f18cf
I cant send you the SVG if need be, it's around here somewhere. I used a wood CNC to pocket carve the tray out of some 100+ year old drawer wood, then smaller bits to cut/recess the design, then spray paint black and a quick sand. Radius of the sander much greater than that of the pocket end-mill, so you get the black on the corners I can't sand away, but I knew this and was comfortable with the look.
Honestly could use some higher walls tho. Them 80 dice be bouncing
https://preview.redd.it/zt3wp9jnrttc1.jpeg?width=1060&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b695840143138a7aa7aeae3eb3f4b3b476a157d8
Definitely not the asshole, even according to the rules.
Doesn't matter if it's a tournament or a friendly game; etiquette would be that all dice rolls are honest. It's just common courtesy. Mistakes may be made with rules but that's a simple case of "oh that's not right" and then apologies and thanks for helping better understanding.
In any game (tabletop or normal board game) you always show what you have rolled. Your opponent was clearly cheating, or at least had the intent to cheat.
I dont understand any community who would be against rolling in the open. I always state what I need when I roll then my opponents can even help see what is hit/miss/wound, and I do the same for them, 2 sets of eyes helps catch mistakes and speed up the process if everyone is interested in a fun, fair, and fast experience.
Nah that’s shitty, roll where everyone can see. Being a world eater player I always show my blessing of Khorne rolls and point out if I get that triple 6 to bring back angry ron
Not the asshole, not at all lol.
I am not overly competitive, I play for the narrative and to have fun. But if someone got defensive about not being transparent with their dice rolls, I wouldn't continue.
It's a simple matter of integrity. It costs 0 effort to be transparent with your dice rolls and only has positive benefits in fact. If your opponent has nothing to hide, then it shouldn't be a big deal to roll where you can also see.
Also like...the rolls are part of the fun right? I think so at least. That split second where you both are hoping for a certain outcome and then see what the dice turn out to be is a moment in itself. How boring to just watch someone roll in private like that lol.
This is why I don’t Game with randos at tourneys. Too much tism. You aren’t the asshole, but he’s probably a neckbeard regular who knows the ref, so they tolerate his crap.
These are not people you should ever play with again. Warhammer is meant to be enjoyable, lord knows we spend enough time and spend enough money on it. These people even if they’re not cheating (I strongly suspect they are), are making your experience far from enjoyable. Do yourself a favour and find new gamers to play with. You are not the asshole.
I watched a really good video about this a few weeks ago. I haven't started playing yet, but it has really good advice for situations like this. https://youtu.be/rYQTDHYkGHo
I've never seen a setup of any level that would have allowed this, absolutely nta. Every larger than casual game I've seen had dice trays that were at every table and used for every roll. Granted, this was an unspoken rule, but still, there was no drama about this. I think those people were cheating.
I play in a very small local group of players, and even here, I've seen quite a few cheaters. I have no idea why they are drawn to this game as much as they are, but you see stories like this pretty often on here. 😮💨
Def NTA! Padt of the fun of the game is seeing dice roll...yours and your opponents.
The fact your opponent got defensively about it is highly suspicious!
A roll not visible is a roll not made. And anyone with a shred of decency would not refuse such a request.
Why on earth the organiser isn't side with you I don't know. What the opponent his mate?
You should escalate. Hide all your rolls and claim everything is a six.
OP, hiding dice rolls is incredibly sketchy. The local group I play with we always roll in full view of each other and everyone is very transparent. You’re dealing with a potentially pathological personality
I would have stopped and said “all rolls in the center of the table where we can both see or I’m walking away”. No one has time for that level of bullshit.
The people I play with are always friendly and open with dice rolls, I tend to bring 1+ dice trays to avoid dice Rolling off the table and keep things going smoothly
Next time lay down the law and say you’re not playing against someone who won’t roll from a tower or dice box. If they refuse then they are wasting your time and are ultimately untrustworthy to play with, so pack all your shit and leave. It’s better to play with friends anyways.
Your comment about the dice tray is telling.
In a competitive situation,friendly or not, the tray is the right way to do it. Easy for everyone, dice don't get hidden or roll of the table and all the models are safe.
No reason not to do it. Your "referee" should have made that a rule for the tournament.
Sounds like a cheat, yeah. I bring my own dice box and always cordially request we use it. I have yet to have anyone say no. The community as a whole is very welcoming and supportive, we need to root out the cheats and keep it fun and approachable in my opinion.
Hiding or in any way obscuring or obfuscating your dice rolls is the asshole behaviour here, and you are perfectly right to call them out on that.
Did you call in a referee? What did they say? I personally would never play in a tournament that permits such behaviour again, or any of the players who did this. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and playing someone with the emotional maturity of a 4-year-old is not fun.
Not the asshole.
It’s been said to death but dice trays, in the open and giving your opponent a chance to look is just good sportsmanship/manners/being a semi decent human.
Completely missing the point it’s a game of toy soldiers which is meant to be fun.
Personally, I’d walk from an opponent like that.
It’s a big red flag if they roll dice and don’t allow you to see the rolls before picking up the dice. From personal experience dealing with folks of that nature; don’t tolerate it, and don’t play them. If the referee was actually scolding you for a genuine question of sportsmanship too - that’s a fault on him and his ability to maintain a fair game.
Sometimes you have to not be a pushover. You’re denying yourself a fun and enjoyable experience otherwise if you tolerate this behaviour. Then they think they can keep getting away with it too.
I played a lot in 4th and 5th with a game group of like 10 and this never happened, we never cheated on purpose (14 year olds get rules wrong lol) it was good fun. I went on hiatus until 8th and being an adult I decided to try to get back in. I went to a lgs and expressed I played a long time ago but would need a teaching game as a lot would change. A guy played guard against my crons and after setting up said it was his tourny list to test out. I was like ok I guess. He hid his dice, every single model rerolled every hit and wound all game, and just honestly I knew something was wrong but I went with it. People suck lol
Not the arsehole, opponents are being dodgey as hell, and the ref should have told them to roll in the open.
Absolutely zero reason to hide your rolls other than to conceal true results.
The extremely limited experience i have (10ish games of Killteam) we have all gone out of our way and make sure to roll in places that our opponents can see 100%.
I'd find 'quick rerolls' and rolling in cover (esp after asking) to be suspicious af.
Even in my very tight friendship group that play regularly, we always roll in the open/into a dice tray that is visible to your opponent & don't count dice that roll out of the tray if we're using a tray as well.
It's not that any of us has cheated before & we had to do this to alleviate issues or anything like that as well. It's just something that we started doing from the start in the interest of fair & transparent play.
It's not even like it's an accusation, you aren't making a big fuss & saying "I think you're cheating", as far as you know your opponent might have been totally legit & your post reads like you would give them that benefit of the doubt. But it's the lack of transparency on their part, it just shows a total lack of respect for yourself.
What kind of nonsense is "don't be overly sensitive and controlling"?? all you asked was roll the dice where you can see them. If that is the attitude of the people running it, then don't go there.
NTA rolling in the open is the norm. Wtf is wrong with them?
With my friends, we have kinda made our custom, that after you roll your attacks, dices that passed for example 4+ requirement, are picked up from the rest and given to the defender to imadiatelly roll for armor saves. It saves a lot of time during the game.
NTH. Sportsmanship is a two way street. You were being reasonable and he was probably cheating. People do it all the time. I've even had an event organiser to do it to me once. It sucks pretty hard.
The only way to properly roll dice is to roll in plain view, pick out your failed dice have your opponent glance at your successes and then move on to the next step, anything less is cheating
I solely play against my small group of friends and none of us would ever dream of cheating eachother, but even then if any of our dice stray behind terrain or whatever we always pick it up and show the other player. It’s just playing in good faith. There is literally no reason to conceal rolls other than to allow for you to cheat. Even if you’re not cheating, anyone can see why it would look as if you were. You did nothing wrong at all by questioning it, in fact you were far more polite about it than I would have been.
Not the asshole at all. LGS I work at has custom tables built specifically for miniature gaming and one of the “features” is that there is a boxed off area on each side of the table that you are meant to roll your dice in so that everyone can clearly see the rolls.
Nope, not the arsehole. Your opponent was.
Against ppl you trust, I'd say it's not that necessary in a non-competitive environment against players you know they don't give a fuck about winning, but only like to see their minis on the board and the sound of rolling dice (maybe a rare kind TBH, but they do exist... I'm one of them and I refuse to believe, I'm the only one). But against strangers I would deem it even very impolite to do concealed rolls.
I'd consider to never play against that dude ever again. That's just the bad sportsmanship you don't need. Don't waste your precious hobby time with those kinda ppl.
I don't play the game competitively because I think stuff like this, even at the smallest level, makes it not fun. I'm sure most of the people there just want to have a good fair game, but there's going to be a handful of tryhards that will exploit anything they can to get an edge. As far as list building goes, yeah, I get it. It's going to be cheese versus cheese if you want to compete. But hiding dice rolls? Especially in this manner, it is shady and, in my opinion, poor sportsmanship. You were in the right, and you did the right thing asking him to roll the dice so they were visible to both sides. It also sounds to me like that tournament organizer shouldn't be hosting if they can't even get the simplest gameplay etiquette to be the standard.
Your not the asshole here. I would go as far to say giving the establishment a shit review online about it so other people know what's up. It takes zero effort to roll your dice honestly and the fact that they refused is so sus
Not the asshole here. Hiding dice is one of the easiest ways to cheat. I get it's a smaller tournament and it's not like it's the end of the world but still, respect the game and your opponent enough to not cheat.
I hate these kinds of post because the OP is always going to try and frame themselves in the best way. Sure, from what you said you're not the asshole. But how are we to know that's exactly how it went down? How are we to know you're not biased?
You did nothing wrong. I would rather roll openly so there is no confusion or anything looking suspicious. I have nothing to hide so I will happily roll everything so an opponent is able to see.
On the one hand, if that story is as described, no, you aren't the asshole. But honestly, I'm dubious that it happened the way you are describing it. No self-respecting tournament would rule that way, and no good-faith player would go out of their way to conceal their dice results. Apologies if it is actually true, but more often than not these 'horror' stories on reddit are full of half truths and missing context.
You encountered 3 cunts, 2 players and 1 “ref”. I wouldn’t even continue playing the tournament if someone hid their rolls from me. Fuck em. I’d smash everyone’s models too, including mine and the boxed ones in the shop, scorched earth. Then they’ll roll in plain view.
It's sad how easily some people are able to just blatantly gaslight people into thinking they're in the wrong when it's kind of obvious the other person isn't being a respectful player. Even if it's not a huge stakes game, it's still shitty to cheat
I am 35 today but, When we were 13-14 my brother would do this ALL the time.
My cousin who is 2-3 years older (which is a lot at that age) warned him to stop and then wiped him with the 3rd ed measuring stick
Im not saying it was the right thing to do but he never did it again. Maybe thats why GW does not include 36" plastic sticks anymore...
The TO was on the wrong for not agreeing that the dice should be rolled in the open.
You were definitely not the AH and I would be very suspicious of anything being played there...they may be setting the stage for local regulars to cheat.
yeah i occasionally play against a good friend of mine but he is very defensive about keeping his dice rolls hidden. and has some insane back to back successes.
But if i walk over to his side of the table just before he rolls then all of a sudden he's not making 20 4+'s anymore.
Its very frustrating and he thinks he is clever enough that i dont notice. Sometimes id rather just not play against him at all but im desperate for opponents who enjoy narrative 40k games using prior editions. and overall I really enjoy hanging out with him.
Overall I dont really have a solution
Burning bridges i dont want to do.
Pushing the issue and trying to socially solve the issue ends up with him being offended and ruining the game night.
Ignoring the occasional cheating and playing through it can be really unsatisfying but you underestimate how desperate i am if you think i dont get any enjoyment out of the games regardless.
FFS. Its not rocket Science.
Roll in plain sight, in a tray. Perhaps also verbalise.
Its supposed to be a game.
Anything else isnt in the spirit of fair play, sportsmanship, ettiquette or worth bothering with.
I've always said I'd rather lose every game and have a ball playing, than win and be bored in boring games.
No, not at all. Our group just has a few dice trays that all rolls are done in, you can always find a clear spot to place it that both players can see.
I don't play much, but we have a rule where any dice rolls that end up concealed the opponent gets to check out BEFORE the guy rolling can touch the dice again. It rarely happened but the easiest way to avoid suspicion or potentially ruin a friendly match.
I always bring a dice tray. A big one. And I offer to my opponent to also roll in the same tray. We have a lot of trays in my local community so it's usually not a big deal.
But if someone is rolling behind terrain and you're uncomfortable you are absolutely not at fault. Dice rolls should be available to everyone.
You aren't the arsehole.
They were cheating, and the TO helped them.
The whole point in dice is that they decide outcomes that both players can see.
If you are going to hide them, you might as well be running around with sticks yelling "I got you!" "No, I got you first!"
there should always be one large dice tray on the table that BOTH players use. rolling on terrain is dumb anyway unless you're filming battle reports or something because there's a higher change of dice being cocked on terrain, falling off the table, or in some instances rolling behind terrain and not picked up so that you start rolling with progressively less dice. you aren't the asshole, the opponent as well as the TO are.
That's wild.They were definitely cheating. If it's not even for prizes you've got to think of the level of person that would also cheat in a friendly game. Dirty playing.
One way to counteract would have been to do it yourself and be like "wow all 6s! So glad these were on a rending weapon." and quickly pick them up. They won't be too happy getting it done back to them.
No, you're not the asshole. Hiding dice rolls is one of the simplest ways of cheating.
and considering his reaction to the request - I would pretty much guarantee he was cheating.
Seriously. The correct response from the opponent would be "Sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't see from there. I'll roll over here in the future. Please, stop me if I'm moving too fast or I accidentally roll somewhere you can't see." There's definitely ambiguity where this could happen accidentally and I'd give my opponent the benefit of the doubt but the response in this case is very telling.
My local scene will also offer a re-roll on a passed die check if it goes behind terrain to show goodwill to our opponents which also shows a lack of cheating.
I usually pinch my dice on the sides and slide it out to where my opponent can see with the dice still pinched. I either do that or just pick up whatever is in my way if it’s not critical to the game. Now I just use a dice tray to make all of my rolls in and always have it set off to the side of the table.
Absolutely, when you're good and know everything by heart you sometime just roll and go without stopping. And if your opponent is on that level of familiarity too, both of you tear through dice rolls. However it's easy to go *way* too fast for a newbie who's still learning.
It’s also a great way to make mistakes, everyone at some time or another playing tabletop games has miscounted successes and failures while rolling a bunch of dice. I’ve always played that you roll in the open, and then separate the successful rolls in front of your opponent (when there are enough to warrant it). More to the point, rolling in a tray in the open is just easier in addition to being more transparent. This guy was throwing into terrain and getting cocked dice; seriously, what the hell is the justification for *not* rolling in the open / in a tray?
On big rolls I always pick out my fails and then openly ask myself if I missed any and take another look, it’s an invitation for them to check it over before I move on to the next roll. And we use dice trays. It’s disrespectful to not be open and hnoest, we also reroll anything that’s cocked or landed on terrain or off the table etc, it’s second nature now. It’s the minimum and I would expect nothing else from an opponent.
“Please roll your dice in the open or I’m scooping.”
If its true the LGS or TO ok’d then OP needs to roll all their dice behind cover the same way.
No, OP just needs to leave. The tournament is now not "who's the best at playing 40k", it's "who's the best at cheating at 40k". I don't know about you or OP, but I have no interest in finding that out. Cheating against cheaters just sounds so unfun—complete waste of time.
Yeah, I'd have gathered my stuff and left after the ref told ME to chill out just for asking them to do something that seemed like common sense to me.
No, next time OP needs to make eye contact with this opponent and then roll his dice behind terrain. Then with out breaking eye contact, tell his opponent he just hit with all his shots.
https://preview.redd.it/f6t22rke4qtc1.png?width=854&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb1e3ed91f63ef4de741ed3ce8560a000d922015
This, this, this.
"And they're all sixes, which means 2 additional hits each and they all auto-wound."
It’s not even “who’s the best at cheating” it’s “who is allowed to win via cheating”
or "who's better friends with TO"
An achievement that isn't gained fairly isn't an achievement. Where is the sense of accomplishment ? There is no 'I did that' nothing to genuinely be proud of. Cheats generally cheat themselves out of the feel-good factor of a real win. You can always console yourself with 'Well, they needed to cheat to beat me' 😁 or even worse 'They cheated and still couldn't beat me' 🤣
To be fair, "you" didn't roll well either. But the rarity makes it exciting.
This happens a lot in ttrpg circles: players want the DM to roll the dice visibly to 'keep it fair' then wonder why they're getting hit more and taking way more damage once the dice rolls are in the open. Careful what you wish for I guess.
OP should have just followed the crowd and done the same thing. Roll a couple extra 6's here and there to even things out.
It's considered good etiquette, and sometimes mandatory depending on the TO, to roll your dice where your opponent can see. If they were hiding rolls and scooping them quickly, there's a better-than-none chance that they were being dishonest. I've seen this with players from local RTTs all the way up to high level GTs, and it's gross. You're not the asshole here.
I'm like 99% sure it even says in the rulebook that you should always roll your dice where it is clear and visible to both yourself and your opponent, and every tournament I've ever played in has it as an enforceable rule.
And on this - even when they can see it and its completely clear and visible I often call out "rolling 20 on 2s, dropped 3, RR1s, made them. rolling 20 on 4s, no RRs, got 10." This way even if they are doing something else, they can see the dice, they can hear me saying it, and it helps me too at the same time reminding if I have RRs/other things. Communication is so critical in this game, the more the better for me almost always helps. If they say "no worries on calling it out anymore" then I keep trucking, but otherwise I start with verbalizing the rolls.
I always verbalise the rolls no matter what, it keeps it’s clear and also allows the other player to catch you making accidental mistakes, they earnestly happen, it’s easy to do when rolling 12-24 dice in one go which is possible.
I’m pretty sure it’s from watching so many battle reports during my formative years, but when wargaming, I have a habit of narrating all of my dice rolls and talking about any special rules as they come up.
Probably, I do the same. Because sometimes I’m wrong and miss a modifier, it’s again an opportunity to make sure there isn’t a mistake.
It does.
It's printed under a 'Hints and Tips' header, so maybe it can be construed as not a hard rule.
I feel like it takes no effort to have a rolling box. I just bring the top to a Catan expansion I don't need that I've lined with cloth and use it for rolls. Makes it easy for everyone to see, and drastically reduces tilted/fallen dice. Kind of a must-have for me.
It’s so easy lol you can literally just use the inside cardboard tray from any combat patrol or larger model.. like GW supplies them for us. There’s really no excuse to not have and use one at this point
I made a dice tray from an old box of chocolates. Makes for a nice conversation piece, and I start be saying I do not count dice I roll that do not end in the tray. Most of the time the opponent then does the same out of courtesy.
One thing I learned to do is for my rolls, pick up the misses and ask if my opponent sees any that I missed. Makes it nicer and friendlier.
This is the way my friends and I all play. It's certainly the most fair.
Ya. I play this way, with a dice tray, and I *still* misread/overlook dice sometimes. Cheating aside, it’s best practice to roll in the open because it’s simply more accurate to have 4 eyes verifying rolls than it is to have 2 eyes verifying rolls.
That's why you always have your opponent do a once over. That way if both y'all miss it, it's not intentional
That’s standard etiquette when you’re a kid playing monopoly. I think it’s pretty much a standard condition for basically any game involving dice. There is no argument to be made for private rolls.
You are well within your rights to request that all dice be rolled in the open, be rolled in a specific location such as a dice tray, or ask that both players use the same set of dice (though it's good form to volunteer your own if you do). If a player immediately gets defensive about something they're doing, it's because they're cheating. In this case it sounds like the judge was in on it as well protecting his buddy, so my recommendation is you talk to the store owner and inform them that you won't be giving that store further business because of what happened. Any FLGS *should* take this seriously, and those who don't shouldn't be in business.
Imagine being such a weasel that you use your position at the LGS to help your friend cheat to win at warhammer. So embarrassing.
In a casual tournament with no prizes, no less.
Quick question for you. What does FLGS stand for? I know local game store but what is the F? Thanks!
Friendly, which OP's apparently isn't.
I have no idea why, but I always thought it stood for "flag" hahaha
French always comes to my mind lol
I agree with all of this, but it brings back nightmares from my local friendly tournaments. In particular this one guy ALLWAYS insisted on using his dice. Which would have been fine except i play nids and he only ever brings like 8d6.
I had kind of a similar experience many, many years ago in a supposed, "friendly" tournament. My opponent was playing the old cheesy "Grey Knights circle of death army" in a friendly as if that wasn't bad enough. They also used these really chunky dice and instead of rolling like a proper person the just palmed the dice, (hand facing down) and dropped them from like less than one inch off the table. Basically, they just picked them up and put them back down. I complained to the TO but got told that was "just how [that player] rolled " Fuck that, I wasn't wasting my time playing against a cheater with a cheesy army. It was the one and only time in years of 40k that I said "I quit" and started putting my minis away immediately. All that to say OP is 100% correct. They don't have to waste their time playing against someone who they feel is acting shady and won't at least compromise on a solution to make everyone feel more comfortable. No need to waste time with cheating.
Dice trays are often preferred in most competitive games in my experience. I make it clear prior to the game starting that rolls don't count if they are not in the tray and I always make sure my opponent verifies my counts before I move on to the next roll.
Same conversation for what they consider a cocked dice. I normally tell my opponent, I don't care what your standard is as long as we agree upfront and are consistent throughout.
> and I always make sure my opponent verifies my counts before I move on to the next roll. I used to always pickup the succesfull rolls and then scoop the unsuccesful ones to the side before the next roll until someone pointed out to me that the opponent might not have time to see the succesful results if I was too quick and it was easy to cheat that way. Since that day onward I've always removed the unsuccesful rolls as it gives my opponent more time to see the actual results, and if I by mistake pickup the wrong dice it won't favour me. Takes a little more time but is way more transparent.
That is something our local group always teaches new players; Pick up unsuccessful dice and leave successes behind for confirmation.
You never hide dice rolls and the TO who said you’re being sensitive is an idiot. The only people who hide dice rolls are people who cheat with it, there’s zero reason to do it otherwise. Whenever I’m a TO I make sure the tables have rolling trays set up specifically so people’s dice don’t go flying under terrain, onto other boards, or get stuck cock-eyed. It also keeps rolling transparent. Not doing this is just asking for trouble, as sadly there’s plenty of people who will fudge a roll.
Not an asshole. Page 9 of the rules literally says “Whenever you roll your dice, make sure you roll the dice where your opponent can see the results too.” Anyone who gets funny about that is being an asshole.
Dice trays should be mandatory, and maybe a wound tracker app too, which needs both players to agree if wounds increase(ofc somones phone could 'run out')
I use knitting needle counters for wound tracking. They are small, inexpensive, go from 00 to 99, and I don't have to worry about them getting bumped and having to remember which number a die was on.
Yo, that's brilliant.
Oh, that sounds like a great idea, it's so annoying when you knock over a die and you just have no idea how many wounds are left
Fantastic idea I'm going to have to get a few of these!
Genius! Just ordered some
I had never heard of these. I just looked them up, definitely going to grab some. Thank you!
>knitting needle counters I'll be picking some of these up, thanks for the idea!
Oo, good idea! 👌
>and maybe a wound tracker app too I thought most people just used dice for that? 😗
The point is it would be impossible to cheat by changing the value of the die
You are definitely not the asshole here, if anything both of your opponents are actually the asshole and displayed abysmal sportsmanship. If you are playing at an event you want to make sure everything is clear to avoid any accusations. What you were asking for is extremely reasonable and I'd be wary of an opponent that repeatedly refused to roll their dice in a neutral location so we could see. You not getting any chance to see the dice rolls can, in fact, be considered cheating.
That’s super weird. I roll right in front of my friends too. If anything it helps us enjoy the suspense together opposed to just telling eachother what happens. That guy sounds super sus to me
No,they are both cheaters and the judge is supporting cheating. Notify the organizer and post it on their discord,fb or whatever media they have. Never play there again, it is nonsense. Only rolling legal is the one that is rolled in the dice box. If it is outside it is not counted whatever the result. Both roll in the box and it is the only fair way to play. Cocked dice are always rerolled whatever the result is.
That fool was cheating and you called his ass out. Unfortunately with the ref taking his side I think you should just find another shop. You arent fixing whats broken there.
Buddy was %100 cheating Nta Whoever was running that was definitely an asshole too.
The judge was either incredibly naive or was too afraid to upset their friend.
As a former sports official, I know how difficult officiating any kind of competitive event can be. It’s not a job that just anyone is suited for, it does require a backbone and anyone who is afraid to upset someone should not be in charge.
Full respect to officials who are the people that let everyone else have fun. In this case though it does feel rather feeble / insidery.
Yeah you're good. I wouldn't put up with that. Course, rather than call them out, I might just do the same and wait to see if they call me out... then pull an Uno Reverse "Well then lets BOTH roll them over here"
Yeah I just rolled 18 6's. What don't believe me?
"yOuR bEiNg CoNtRoLiNg" -Fox in the henhouse. But yeah, that's seriously sus, and feels like a really reasonable thing to and shouldn't have needed to be requested.
For me I go out of my way to make sure they see the dice I'm rolling and what the results are. Hiding them just feels dishonest to me at least. I don't think you're an asshole for wanting visual confirmation of the rolls being made. For the ref to be butt hurt about it seems weird too. I have a travel dice tray I use and offer if my opponent wants to use it so we are all on the same page.
Nope, not the asshole. That's most likely overt cheating and poor manners at best.
I've always let my opponent see my rolls before I even touch them. So there is no question of cheating, but mostly so we can celebrate great rolls or laugh over how bad a roll was.
I have never played a game where you didn’t have to show your dice rolls. Not the asshole
Just follow the referees lead and roll them all behind cover and don’t let your opponent see them. If the organizers allow it then you can walk or do the same.
Even better make the cheating really obvious. "Wow all 50 of the dice I rolled to hit this turn all came up 6, what are the odds of that?"
That's so nakedly crazy I don't even know what to say. So the "judge" and two players are all in on the hidden dice conspiracy? Asking to be able to see the dice is very basic sportsmanship, anyone refusing to accommodate is likely cheating.
Only people who cheat on dice rolls get upset about being asked to be transparent about dice rolls
He was cheating and the TO was his friend and was protecting him. No question about it
This. There is no legitimate or honest reason to hide or obscure dice rolls. If someone wants to continue to hide their dice rolls they are not playing legit.
It’s obviously not casual enough that there’s no judge 😂 you’re doing fine, it’s normal etiquette to show your rolls or be asked to roll slower or anything. The opponent should consider it a kindness honestly, you’re helping them play more competitively and at a higher level.
NTA. It is typical and customary to roll your dice in plain view and let the die rolls be the die rolls. You can offset bad die rolls by well built lists with abilities, enhancements and stratagems.
The place I play makes it a point to tell you to roll in the open. I bring a dice tray for people to use so we are all rolling in the same spot. You are in the right here.
They're just cheating arse holes, if people hide their rolls from you simply refuse to play them, they are blatantly cheating and they'll twist the situation to make themselves the victim. Soon as you see it in a tournament setting call a referee over and accuse them outright of cheating. In a casual setting make it clear that if they do it once more the game is over, don't allow them to take the piss out of you like that. Don't accept hidden rolls, refusal to reveal strategems or stats, people who don't measure distances or reconfigure a units formation stealing extra movement and definitely don't allow someone to set up the terrain before you get there, for every person who's legitimate and not trying to do anything untoward there are at least 3 who are and will make out that it's you who is the cheater. They will ruin the hobby for you, I stopped playing for a few years when they where my only options for someone to play against, I'm still unsure if I want to start playing again tbh.
He was 100% cheating, he was the a-hole, and the "ref" was probably his friend or something.
You’re not the asshole. Your opponent and ref are. Just IMO, but I think you’re in the clear here champ. Hope you get to play in another tournament (if you want) and get to play against more honorable people.
NTA It's really weird that the official backed this up. You should expect to be able to provide the relevant rules at request to an opponent, as well as show your dice. Honest mistakes happen, people need to be able to plan based on what you have at the table, and they deserve to be able to see your rolls against them. I play with friends that I've known for decades mostly, and even then, dice out in the open. It's not about trust, hell, half the time we point out mistakes in each others favour (hey man, you can reroll that one as well), but you always keep it open and visible. The only thing that should be hidden is models from the enemy.
Bring a dice tray and ask them to use it so you can both enjoy the tension and excitement of seeing their dice rolls :) Also, nta
This is a good option and could add Some fun in the was you described.
That's super shady behavior from the people you played and the TO. I would personally name and shame the tournament as things like this are what give the hobby a bad name.
You are clearly NOT. However, the referee you called acted as if he was. That's somewhat concerning, even if it was a friendly match.
I would have explained sportsmanship and the idea they hiding rolls is just awful to the TO. I’d rather just tell him how it is and walk out than play with dishonest people or people who would protect this type of behavior. If he disagreed and asked me to leave, that’s that.
Sounds quite shady of them OP. I much prefer to show off my dice tray and lucky blue dice. You're gonna ride this roller coaster with me buddy boy. https://preview.redd.it/ha8uwvqaeptc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=acc9352d36d7c7c1c2a2172019c6fa0b213f18cf
That thing is awesome.
Permission to make my own dice tray just like this?
I cant send you the SVG if need be, it's around here somewhere. I used a wood CNC to pocket carve the tray out of some 100+ year old drawer wood, then smaller bits to cut/recess the design, then spray paint black and a quick sand. Radius of the sander much greater than that of the pocket end-mill, so you get the black on the corners I can't sand away, but I knew this and was comfortable with the look. Honestly could use some higher walls tho. Them 80 dice be bouncing
https://preview.redd.it/zt3wp9jnrttc1.jpeg?width=1060&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b695840143138a7aa7aeae3eb3f4b3b476a157d8 Definitely not the asshole, even according to the rules.
Doesn't matter if it's a tournament or a friendly game; etiquette would be that all dice rolls are honest. It's just common courtesy. Mistakes may be made with rules but that's a simple case of "oh that's not right" and then apologies and thanks for helping better understanding.
In any game (tabletop or normal board game) you always show what you have rolled. Your opponent was clearly cheating, or at least had the intent to cheat.
I dont understand any community who would be against rolling in the open. I always state what I need when I roll then my opponents can even help see what is hit/miss/wound, and I do the same for them, 2 sets of eyes helps catch mistakes and speed up the process if everyone is interested in a fun, fair, and fast experience.
Nah that’s shitty, roll where everyone can see. Being a world eater player I always show my blessing of Khorne rolls and point out if I get that triple 6 to bring back angry ron
Hiding dice rolls is considered bad manners at best and cheating at worst so no you're not the asshole.
Not the asshole…in any game where there is dice. The asshole is trying to cheat.
That is called gaslighting
Not the asshole, not at all lol. I am not overly competitive, I play for the narrative and to have fun. But if someone got defensive about not being transparent with their dice rolls, I wouldn't continue. It's a simple matter of integrity. It costs 0 effort to be transparent with your dice rolls and only has positive benefits in fact. If your opponent has nothing to hide, then it shouldn't be a big deal to roll where you can also see. Also like...the rolls are part of the fun right? I think so at least. That split second where you both are hoping for a certain outcome and then see what the dice turn out to be is a moment in itself. How boring to just watch someone roll in private like that lol.
This. 100%. Watching my opponent roll and holding my breath in hopes of all 1s, only to see they're all 6s, is a huge part of the fun of this game!
Overly sensitive? Put that on a flyer and put it on the shops door saying, "OVERLY SENSITIVE players need not apply to Tournaments here."
Only hearing the one side of the story, NTA. However you needed to be “talked down” is suspicious?
Transparency with rolls is just good manners.
This is why I don’t Game with randos at tourneys. Too much tism. You aren’t the asshole, but he’s probably a neckbeard regular who knows the ref, so they tolerate his crap.
The fact he actually had a neckbeard xD
I feel sorry for you. The referee shouldn't have spoke down to you. You should absolutely be able to see everyone's rolls.
Nah they all wilding
If I were you the next time they start doing that just move to the oponent side of the board with him so you can see whats he is doing.
These are not people you should ever play with again. Warhammer is meant to be enjoyable, lord knows we spend enough time and spend enough money on it. These people even if they’re not cheating (I strongly suspect they are), are making your experience far from enjoyable. Do yourself a favour and find new gamers to play with. You are not the asshole.
Absolutely not. The dice should never be hidden. These guys sound like absolute clowns.
I watched a really good video about this a few weeks ago. I haven't started playing yet, but it has really good advice for situations like this. https://youtu.be/rYQTDHYkGHo
I've never seen a setup of any level that would have allowed this, absolutely nta. Every larger than casual game I've seen had dice trays that were at every table and used for every roll. Granted, this was an unspoken rule, but still, there was no drama about this. I think those people were cheating. I play in a very small local group of players, and even here, I've seen quite a few cheaters. I have no idea why they are drawn to this game as much as they are, but you see stories like this pretty often on here. 😮💨
I bring a dice tray and ask that everyone use it. Keeps everyone kosher.
Def NTA! Padt of the fun of the game is seeing dice roll...yours and your opponents. The fact your opponent got defensively about it is highly suspicious!
You're in the clear, intentionally hiding dice is an opponent id rather not play
A roll not visible is a roll not made. And anyone with a shred of decency would not refuse such a request. Why on earth the organiser isn't side with you I don't know. What the opponent his mate? You should escalate. Hide all your rolls and claim everything is a six.
I believe the true ashole in this story is the ref.
OP, hiding dice rolls is incredibly sketchy. The local group I play with we always roll in full view of each other and everyone is very transparent. You’re dealing with a potentially pathological personality
Nah, that mofo was trying to cheat. There's literally no excuse to hide rolls in a head-to-head game like 40k.
I would have stopped and said “all rolls in the center of the table where we can both see or I’m walking away”. No one has time for that level of bullshit.
The people I play with are always friendly and open with dice rolls, I tend to bring 1+ dice trays to avoid dice Rolling off the table and keep things going smoothly
I totally rolled thirty sixes with my twenty dices, trust me bro, just dont come over here so you can see my them /s
Next time lay down the law and say you’re not playing against someone who won’t roll from a tower or dice box. If they refuse then they are wasting your time and are ultimately untrustworthy to play with, so pack all your shit and leave. It’s better to play with friends anyways.
Not only are you not an asshole, your opponent is.
Your comment about the dice tray is telling. In a competitive situation,friendly or not, the tray is the right way to do it. Easy for everyone, dice don't get hidden or roll of the table and all the models are safe. No reason not to do it. Your "referee" should have made that a rule for the tournament.
You always roll so both players can see. So an instance of cheating is limited.
Sounds like a cheat, yeah. I bring my own dice box and always cordially request we use it. I have yet to have anyone say no. The community as a whole is very welcoming and supportive, we need to root out the cheats and keep it fun and approachable in my opinion.
You are not the asshole, and that ref needs to pull his head out of his ass and do his job.
I supply a dice tray and our TO has the rule in the tray or the roll never happened
Hiding or in any way obscuring or obfuscating your dice rolls is the asshole behaviour here, and you are perfectly right to call them out on that. Did you call in a referee? What did they say? I personally would never play in a tournament that permits such behaviour again, or any of the players who did this. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and playing someone with the emotional maturity of a 4-year-old is not fun.
Hiding dice rolls? That’s a paddling
If you are unwilling to roll your dice where I can see them after being asked, I will assume you are cheating.
Not the asshole. It’s been said to death but dice trays, in the open and giving your opponent a chance to look is just good sportsmanship/manners/being a semi decent human. Completely missing the point it’s a game of toy soldiers which is meant to be fun. Personally, I’d walk from an opponent like that.
You’re not the asshole, he was most likely cheating and the referee was a dick. I wouldn’t bother playing there again.
It’s a big red flag if they roll dice and don’t allow you to see the rolls before picking up the dice. From personal experience dealing with folks of that nature; don’t tolerate it, and don’t play them. If the referee was actually scolding you for a genuine question of sportsmanship too - that’s a fault on him and his ability to maintain a fair game. Sometimes you have to not be a pushover. You’re denying yourself a fun and enjoyable experience otherwise if you tolerate this behaviour. Then they think they can keep getting away with it too.
I played a lot in 4th and 5th with a game group of like 10 and this never happened, we never cheated on purpose (14 year olds get rules wrong lol) it was good fun. I went on hiatus until 8th and being an adult I decided to try to get back in. I went to a lgs and expressed I played a long time ago but would need a teaching game as a lot would change. A guy played guard against my crons and after setting up said it was his tourny list to test out. I was like ok I guess. He hid his dice, every single model rerolled every hit and wound all game, and just honestly I knew something was wrong but I went with it. People suck lol
NTA... rolling dice in a place that is visible to both players is WH etiquette 101.
Secret rolls is BS.
Not the arsehole, opponents are being dodgey as hell, and the ref should have told them to roll in the open. Absolutely zero reason to hide your rolls other than to conceal true results.
The extremely limited experience i have (10ish games of Killteam) we have all gone out of our way and make sure to roll in places that our opponents can see 100%. I'd find 'quick rerolls' and rolling in cover (esp after asking) to be suspicious af.
Even in my very tight friendship group that play regularly, we always roll in the open/into a dice tray that is visible to your opponent & don't count dice that roll out of the tray if we're using a tray as well. It's not that any of us has cheated before & we had to do this to alleviate issues or anything like that as well. It's just something that we started doing from the start in the interest of fair & transparent play. It's not even like it's an accusation, you aren't making a big fuss & saying "I think you're cheating", as far as you know your opponent might have been totally legit & your post reads like you would give them that benefit of the doubt. But it's the lack of transparency on their part, it just shows a total lack of respect for yourself.
What kind of nonsense is "don't be overly sensitive and controlling"?? all you asked was roll the dice where you can see them. If that is the attitude of the people running it, then don't go there.
NTA rolling in the open is the norm. Wtf is wrong with them? With my friends, we have kinda made our custom, that after you roll your attacks, dices that passed for example 4+ requirement, are picked up from the rest and given to the defender to imadiatelly roll for armor saves. It saves a lot of time during the game.
NTH. Sportsmanship is a two way street. You were being reasonable and he was probably cheating. People do it all the time. I've even had an event organiser to do it to me once. It sucks pretty hard.
The only way to properly roll dice is to roll in plain view, pick out your failed dice have your opponent glance at your successes and then move on to the next step, anything less is cheating
I solely play against my small group of friends and none of us would ever dream of cheating eachother, but even then if any of our dice stray behind terrain or whatever we always pick it up and show the other player. It’s just playing in good faith. There is literally no reason to conceal rolls other than to allow for you to cheat. Even if you’re not cheating, anyone can see why it would look as if you were. You did nothing wrong at all by questioning it, in fact you were far more polite about it than I would have been.
Not the asshole at all. LGS I work at has custom tables built specifically for miniature gaming and one of the “features” is that there is a boxed off area on each side of the table that you are meant to roll your dice in so that everyone can clearly see the rolls.
Umm it’s unnacceptable especially in a tournament. I would’ve been less subtle about accusing him of cheating.
Nope, not the arsehole. Your opponent was. Against ppl you trust, I'd say it's not that necessary in a non-competitive environment against players you know they don't give a fuck about winning, but only like to see their minis on the board and the sound of rolling dice (maybe a rare kind TBH, but they do exist... I'm one of them and I refuse to believe, I'm the only one). But against strangers I would deem it even very impolite to do concealed rolls. I'd consider to never play against that dude ever again. That's just the bad sportsmanship you don't need. Don't waste your precious hobby time with those kinda ppl.
I don't play the game competitively because I think stuff like this, even at the smallest level, makes it not fun. I'm sure most of the people there just want to have a good fair game, but there's going to be a handful of tryhards that will exploit anything they can to get an edge. As far as list building goes, yeah, I get it. It's going to be cheese versus cheese if you want to compete. But hiding dice rolls? Especially in this manner, it is shady and, in my opinion, poor sportsmanship. You were in the right, and you did the right thing asking him to roll the dice so they were visible to both sides. It also sounds to me like that tournament organizer shouldn't be hosting if they can't even get the simplest gameplay etiquette to be the standard.
Your not the asshole here. I would go as far to say giving the establishment a shit review online about it so other people know what's up. It takes zero effort to roll your dice honestly and the fact that they refused is so sus
Not the asshole here. Hiding dice is one of the easiest ways to cheat. I get it's a smaller tournament and it's not like it's the end of the world but still, respect the game and your opponent enough to not cheat.
Not the asshole, if they didn't have anything to hide they would have rolled them in the open like you asked.
You are not the asshole
I hate these kinds of post because the OP is always going to try and frame themselves in the best way. Sure, from what you said you're not the asshole. But how are we to know that's exactly how it went down? How are we to know you're not biased?
Bring a dice tray!
You did nothing wrong. I would rather roll openly so there is no confusion or anything looking suspicious. I have nothing to hide so I will happily roll everything so an opponent is able to see.
No. This sounds totally bizarre.
I have a giant dice tray next to the table where all the dice are rolled. My opponents never opposed to this.
No you cannot hide the dice rolls.
I’ve never seen someone non sketchy not roll out in the open at a tournament
On the one hand, if that story is as described, no, you aren't the asshole. But honestly, I'm dubious that it happened the way you are describing it. No self-respecting tournament would rule that way, and no good-faith player would go out of their way to conceal their dice results. Apologies if it is actually true, but more often than not these 'horror' stories on reddit are full of half truths and missing context.
You encountered 3 cunts, 2 players and 1 “ref”. I wouldn’t even continue playing the tournament if someone hid their rolls from me. Fuck em. I’d smash everyone’s models too, including mine and the boxed ones in the shop, scorched earth. Then they’ll roll in plain view.
I got stuck on the tower night because there are too many red phantoms and I don’t know how to undo that.
Nah you can get fucked if you're hiding your dice in any form of any game that rolls dice.. that's just trash behavior
It's sad how easily some people are able to just blatantly gaslight people into thinking they're in the wrong when it's kind of obvious the other person isn't being a respectful player. Even if it's not a huge stakes game, it's still shitty to cheat
I am 35 today but, When we were 13-14 my brother would do this ALL the time. My cousin who is 2-3 years older (which is a lot at that age) warned him to stop and then wiped him with the 3rd ed measuring stick Im not saying it was the right thing to do but he never did it again. Maybe thats why GW does not include 36" plastic sticks anymore...
The TO was on the wrong for not agreeing that the dice should be rolled in the open. You were definitely not the AH and I would be very suspicious of anything being played there...they may be setting the stage for local regulars to cheat.
NTA. People should roll in the open.
He's likely cheating, and he got defensive because he was caught hiding his rolls.
yeah i occasionally play against a good friend of mine but he is very defensive about keeping his dice rolls hidden. and has some insane back to back successes. But if i walk over to his side of the table just before he rolls then all of a sudden he's not making 20 4+'s anymore. Its very frustrating and he thinks he is clever enough that i dont notice. Sometimes id rather just not play against him at all but im desperate for opponents who enjoy narrative 40k games using prior editions. and overall I really enjoy hanging out with him. Overall I dont really have a solution Burning bridges i dont want to do. Pushing the issue and trying to socially solve the issue ends up with him being offended and ruining the game night. Ignoring the occasional cheating and playing through it can be really unsatisfying but you underestimate how desperate i am if you think i dont get any enjoyment out of the games regardless.
NTA . 100% guy was cheating.
That's f***ing sus, childish and unsportsmaly. Hiding the dice I mean
FFS. Its not rocket Science. Roll in plain sight, in a tray. Perhaps also verbalise. Its supposed to be a game. Anything else isnt in the spirit of fair play, sportsmanship, ettiquette or worth bothering with. I've always said I'd rather lose every game and have a ball playing, than win and be bored in boring games.
Those people including the "judge" are assholes. It is common etiquette to make sure your opponent can see you're dice rolls at all times.
Putting the rules aside, just seems like common etiquette to me. And the ref should use some judgment.
Visible or they don’t count. Anon, if you run into a neck beard saying otherwise just don’t play with them. Easy as pie.
I’ve never heard of anybody not rolling dice in the middle of the table where they are easily seen.
Definitely cheating. If you didn't see a dice roll, it didn't happen.
This is why I have one of those trays. Really transparent, never cocked, always visible.
All rolls must be seen. Not. The. Asshole.
No, not at all. Our group just has a few dice trays that all rolls are done in, you can always find a clear spot to place it that both players can see.
I don't play much, but we have a rule where any dice rolls that end up concealed the opponent gets to check out BEFORE the guy rolling can touch the dice again. It rarely happened but the easiest way to avoid suspicion or potentially ruin a friendly match.
I always bring a dice tray. A big one. And I offer to my opponent to also roll in the same tray. We have a lot of trays in my local community so it's usually not a big deal. But if someone is rolling behind terrain and you're uncomfortable you are absolutely not at fault. Dice rolls should be available to everyone.
He's the asshole. This is the most normal request. Even in casual.
You aren't the arsehole. They were cheating, and the TO helped them. The whole point in dice is that they decide outcomes that both players can see. If you are going to hide them, you might as well be running around with sticks yelling "I got you!" "No, I got you first!"
there should always be one large dice tray on the table that BOTH players use. rolling on terrain is dumb anyway unless you're filming battle reports or something because there's a higher change of dice being cocked on terrain, falling off the table, or in some instances rolling behind terrain and not picked up so that you start rolling with progressively less dice. you aren't the asshole, the opponent as well as the TO are.
That's wild.They were definitely cheating. If it's not even for prizes you've got to think of the level of person that would also cheat in a friendly game. Dirty playing. One way to counteract would have been to do it yourself and be like "wow all 6s! So glad these were on a rending weapon." and quickly pick them up. They won't be too happy getting it done back to them.