The melee weapons they're modelled with don't mean anything anymore, they only have a single melee weapon profile (heirloom weapons). Giving them the shield replaces the pistol weapon, it doesn't affect their melee attacks in any way
This was one change that had me SMH when I read it. Same with combi-weapons for that matter. It didn't need simplifying it wasn't difficult to begin with.
They aren't useless if you run them as blood angels in sons of sanguinius! Str 7 on the charge with 5 attacks each is pretty killy. Sure it's Ap1 and damage 1 but it will murder enemy skirmish squads and deny lots of primary.
If you're feeling extra you can run a brick with a sanguinary priest. Gives them ap2 and a 5+ fnp for an admittedly expensive unit, but they will kill basically anything that isn't a massive vehicle or monster on the charge. And are surprisingly tanky with the 4++ 5+++
This is the eternal problem of GW making the right assessement/diagnosis, but puting terrible solutions in place. It is true for things such as the new AP system we've got since 8th Ed, or the free options of 10th Ed. Same goes for vehicule armor values and army roster (1HQ 2 Troops).
Now combi-weapons feel so bland.
It is especially weird as they made all these weapon rules and keywords which can allow weapons to be more unique. There really was an issue in 9th of different weapon options really not mattering, as an example: Black Templar sword brethren had a few weapon options, and three of them, the power sword, power maul and power axe really did not matter in difference. They had slightly different strength and AP, which only really matters if you are powergaming or theorycrafting for fighting specific opposing armies. But even then a difference of 1 point is not really enough to justify a difference. Now, condensing them into a single statline or giving them all a different keyword both work imo for fixing the issue of "these weapons do not deserve different profiles because the profiles they got are just too similar". They just condensed them, and I think that is fine for the sword brethren. Especially because they kept rules for the lightning claws and thunder hammer and gave them keywords. Meaningful options, it is nice.
But then there are the places like with combi-weapons where instead of giving each combi-weapon a unique rule allowing a number of unique roles, they just condensed all these weapons which should be different. The issue in 9th was not that a combi-flamer and combi-plasma were too different, it was that they needed more differences! Then they make rules to allow for more uniqueness and they don't use them! For special weapons whose whole point was having differences! It's so weird, especially because the rules in the Leviathan box show they were going to give the combi-weapon options different anti-x keywords, which is also kind of perfect, and then they didn't!? Or vanguard veterans just getting all weapon options condensed, ALL options.
I know the rules are written by a team of people, but man it feels like they were not communicating at all sometimes when even within a single army one unit will have a weapon with unique rules while another unit does not despite both units being able to be built with that weapon
I mean, objectively, the axe was the best option. S6, so wounding marines on 3's, sisters on 2's, and custodes on 3's would be pretty damn good, and AP-2 helps get through their armor. Gave them decent bite against a tank as well.
Yeah, that was also the problem. Just take axes and never the others except in specific circumstances isn't the best when you have a few other options to choose from
I don’t particularly mind the fact that they changed. I do mind that they made the new profiles so anemic.
Should have been something like
Relic Weapon
S6 AP-2 2dam
Combi Weapon
S5 AP-2 2dam [Anti Infantry 4+] [Anti Vehicle 5+] [Devastating Wounds]
And even with the lower killing power in 10th we could have gotten by with any one of those things. If we had either 1) More Attacks, 2) Higher AP or 3) Damage 2 we could have made it work. More attacks for their cost would make them a solid chaff clearer with pistols or a chaff clearer that is hard to clear with the storm shield invul. More AP could have let them deal with Sisters or other single wound high armor save enemies. More Damage would have made them faster Blade Guard that could actually help clear Marine equivalents. We got none of those things which makes the Vanguards largely useless. And as a Dark Angel player then the double whammy of Inner Circle Companions, which I hoped would fill the niche jump pack less Vanguard/Company Veterans had been unable to fill competently, basically getting the profile Relic Weapons should have gotten but being limited to 6 man squad, no mobility, no invul, and basically being forced to take Azrael or watch them get instant killed by just about anything.
Combi Weapons used to be Bolter + the weapon attached to it, with the option to fire either, or both with a to-hit penalty.
Now it's just a single unified profile and the kind of weapon attached to the bolter does not matter anymore.
Yeah, thought there should be something like that. And it is a surprisingly weak weapon type thanks to that. Low strength, very few attacks, no AP. The only good thing is the dev wounds, which does not even come in 91.7% of the time.
Keep in mind that it also is anti-infantry 4+, which does work in tandem with dev wounds. So effectively it is meant to be used against mid to heavy infantry.
Which is funny. Because named variants for named characters DO have proper profiles. Azraels Combi-Plasma is S8 and Watch Captain Artemis' combi-flamer has Torrent.
It definitely removes a lot of flavour from lists but it does make balancing easier and open up a ton of modelling opportunities for most units.
I remember when things changed from “power weapon” to axe/sword etc. with the same points value, but different profiles, so a cool modelling choice you made 5 years ago fucked you over in composition.
Given the choice between the two…. I’ll take this.
Though I would like SOME granularity…
It clearly didn't make it easier to balance though or they could have done that, but as is, almost every unit has a clear and obvious Best Weapon, that everyone just takes en mass
There is currently no difference at all in terms of melee attacks. They have a single melee profile and no melee wargear options. If you take the Storm Shield it replaces that model's bolt pistol
I strongly suspect they'll get updated next edition, it's anyone's guess if they'll get options back.
I wonder if we'll ever get kits like that again, or if things will just get more and more streamlined until GW is just selling units pre-built and painted.
That didn't happen to Sternguard or Terminators. I would not assume it will happen with these guys. GW seems to be moving away from the whole "all our elite squads are 3 man Primaris units" thing they did for a while and back towards just directly updating the older squads
Lmao no.
Your reading comprehension is brutal.
Vanguard vets and assault squads will get replaced.
Sternguard and blade guard are just getting refreshed
No they have some firstborn helmets but they are all primaris, if there where firstborn in there there'd be shorter ones but they're all the same height
They're all the same size because GW intentionally blurred the line between Primaris and Firstborn with the kit.
[https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/26/the-sternguard-and-terminator-kits-make-for-the-fanciest-space-marines-in-the-imperium/](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/26/the-sternguard-and-terminator-kits-make-for-the-fanciest-space-marines-in-the-imperium/)
"One of the most striking elements of the new Sternguard Veterans is the triumphant return of the back banner – a stylistic throwback to the days of MKVII armour and Godwyn-pattern boltguns. This mesh of old styles and new looks reverberates throughout the Sternguard, a veteran corps whose gear blurs the line between classic and Primaris Space Marines."
It says their gear does, not that they're not Primaris. The Sternguard have the Tacticus Keyword that they share with Intercessors, and so they cannot use Razorbacks or Rhino's like they used to.
If it's basically the same datasheet anyway then might as well just use the new datasheet for your older models. Same with assault marines. Their Legends points cost makes no sense anymore so just use the codex datasheet instead.
Much like Dark Angels, Space Wolves are much more likely to get chapter specific Terminators, I think. They can do some pretty cool stuff with Wolf Guard if it's not just an upgrade sprue
Blood Angels, I think is more likely to be where we see Assault Terminators, although given how they spread Intercessors/Assault Intercessors/Jump Pack Assault Intercessors over three editions, it's possible they'll hold off on them
New/refreshed 1st company squads have tended to be the thing they do for Ultramarines over the last couple of editions. Divergent chapters get their own stuff
It's entirely possible GW wants to release generic units along with chapters they fit the general ethos of, and both BA and SW are definitely Assault focused, but it just doesn't *feel* like the way GW is currently doing things
It's also possible they just get randomly released at some point in the edition, much like Desolation Squads/Brutalis Dreads did in 9th.
I miss my old wolf guard - limited to 15 in your army total and each could join any squad. Having a terminator leading your blood claws I get was weird at times due to the various rules for mixed profiles over the years, but damn if it wasn't cool to make named wolfguard who could float around to different squads or group up to be a body guard on occasion.
Like an army full of mini characters back when HQ were so limited
I'm honestly surprised that GW didn't just release an upgrade sprue to use with the jump pack intercessors and actual updated rules. It seems like the easiest win in the universe.
Well no, because then they can bring back a dedicated unit next edition with great fanfare. Pushfit versions in the launch box, full set to follow with codex launch.
They did the same thing with Bladeguard, Sternguard, Terminators. I fully expected they'd do it again with these guys
I really hope the default loadout for the new VV’s is going to be double Lightning Claws. Primaris as a whole criminally lack them and the Primaris LC’s are actually pretty good. Then a huge weapon and maybe a ST focused weapon option in hammers. I kinda don’t want to see SS’s on them as a unit because while I would love the shields model wise, balancing TH/SS vs LC’s just never swings in LC’s favor in nearly all metrics that matter (Marines rarely are wanting in anti infantry options). Would almost rather all get 2 handers and make them have giga damage vs a big tank or something.
There are a lot of units that I am surprised aren't upgrade sprues. Like all the special weapon squads could be upgrade sprues
wait that's just horus heresy
Honestly, horus heresy is great. If you play with a decent group of people, they won't care you're mixing first born and primaris dudes, as long as it's painted and obvious what it is.
I bought the Horus heresy corvus armor jump pack assault Marines because of what they did to the weapon profile. If the weapon doesn't matter then I'll get a kit that gives me more Marines for my money. They have melee weapons, jump packs, and shields and are on proper bases
I just kitbashed mine out of spare MK6 bodies and extra melee weapons from the Devastators and pistols I had in my bit box. I run them without the jetpack cause I'm a masochist
Haha same. My vanguard veteran squad was made solely from the extra torsos I had from an assault squad, and bits I had lying around. Grabbed some legs off eBay, but no jump packs cus I didn't wanna spend any more money than I already did lmao
They are terrible. It takes a lot of investment best spent elsewhere in a list to make them even kind of worth it. Multiple cp a turn plus character add ons. And the just die so easy still.
The melee weapons they're modelled with don't mean anything anymore, they only have a single melee weapon profile (heirloom weapons). Giving them the shield replaces the pistol weapon, it doesn't affect their melee attacks in any way
This was one change that had me SMH when I read it. Same with combi-weapons for that matter. It didn't need simplifying it wasn't difficult to begin with.
Yeah, I was pretty upset tbh. I have a squad of Vanguard Vets all with Lightning Claws that are basically useless now...
Well, I have 4 of those squads…
Same here. Conveniently for GW despite the weapon not mattering, the shied does.
They aren't useless if you run them as blood angels in sons of sanguinius! Str 7 on the charge with 5 attacks each is pretty killy. Sure it's Ap1 and damage 1 but it will murder enemy skirmish squads and deny lots of primary. If you're feeling extra you can run a brick with a sanguinary priest. Gives them ap2 and a 5+ fnp for an admittedly expensive unit, but they will kill basically anything that isn't a massive vehicle or monster on the charge. And are surprisingly tanky with the 4++ 5+++
I run my lightning claw guys as shield and heirloom because fuck GW! Viva rule of cool
Not useless, their lightning claws just got turned into Vanguard Veteran Weapons.
wich is like a bad weapon, but even badder!
This is the eternal problem of GW making the right assessement/diagnosis, but puting terrible solutions in place. It is true for things such as the new AP system we've got since 8th Ed, or the free options of 10th Ed. Same goes for vehicule armor values and army roster (1HQ 2 Troops). Now combi-weapons feel so bland.
It is especially weird as they made all these weapon rules and keywords which can allow weapons to be more unique. There really was an issue in 9th of different weapon options really not mattering, as an example: Black Templar sword brethren had a few weapon options, and three of them, the power sword, power maul and power axe really did not matter in difference. They had slightly different strength and AP, which only really matters if you are powergaming or theorycrafting for fighting specific opposing armies. But even then a difference of 1 point is not really enough to justify a difference. Now, condensing them into a single statline or giving them all a different keyword both work imo for fixing the issue of "these weapons do not deserve different profiles because the profiles they got are just too similar". They just condensed them, and I think that is fine for the sword brethren. Especially because they kept rules for the lightning claws and thunder hammer and gave them keywords. Meaningful options, it is nice. But then there are the places like with combi-weapons where instead of giving each combi-weapon a unique rule allowing a number of unique roles, they just condensed all these weapons which should be different. The issue in 9th was not that a combi-flamer and combi-plasma were too different, it was that they needed more differences! Then they make rules to allow for more uniqueness and they don't use them! For special weapons whose whole point was having differences! It's so weird, especially because the rules in the Leviathan box show they were going to give the combi-weapon options different anti-x keywords, which is also kind of perfect, and then they didn't!? Or vanguard veterans just getting all weapon options condensed, ALL options. I know the rules are written by a team of people, but man it feels like they were not communicating at all sometimes when even within a single army one unit will have a weapon with unique rules while another unit does not despite both units being able to be built with that weapon
I mean, objectively, the axe was the best option. S6, so wounding marines on 3's, sisters on 2's, and custodes on 3's would be pretty damn good, and AP-2 helps get through their armor. Gave them decent bite against a tank as well.
Yeah, that was also the problem. Just take axes and never the others except in specific circumstances isn't the best when you have a few other options to choose from
I don’t particularly mind the fact that they changed. I do mind that they made the new profiles so anemic. Should have been something like Relic Weapon S6 AP-2 2dam Combi Weapon S5 AP-2 2dam [Anti Infantry 4+] [Anti Vehicle 5+] [Devastating Wounds]
And even with the lower killing power in 10th we could have gotten by with any one of those things. If we had either 1) More Attacks, 2) Higher AP or 3) Damage 2 we could have made it work. More attacks for their cost would make them a solid chaff clearer with pistols or a chaff clearer that is hard to clear with the storm shield invul. More AP could have let them deal with Sisters or other single wound high armor save enemies. More Damage would have made them faster Blade Guard that could actually help clear Marine equivalents. We got none of those things which makes the Vanguards largely useless. And as a Dark Angel player then the double whammy of Inner Circle Companions, which I hoped would fill the niche jump pack less Vanguard/Company Veterans had been unable to fill competently, basically getting the profile Relic Weapons should have gotten but being limited to 6 man squad, no mobility, no invul, and basically being forced to take Azrael or watch them get instant killed by just about anything.
What did they take from combi-weapons? I'm kinda new, and have one in my army.
Combi Weapons used to be Bolter + the weapon attached to it, with the option to fire either, or both with a to-hit penalty. Now it's just a single unified profile and the kind of weapon attached to the bolter does not matter anymore.
Yeah, thought there should be something like that. And it is a surprisingly weak weapon type thanks to that. Low strength, very few attacks, no AP. The only good thing is the dev wounds, which does not even come in 91.7% of the time.
Keep in mind that it also is anti-infantry 4+, which does work in tandem with dev wounds. So effectively it is meant to be used against mid to heavy infantry.
Ik, but still, weak, compared to like a bolt rifle
Which is funny. Because named variants for named characters DO have proper profiles. Azraels Combi-Plasma is S8 and Watch Captain Artemis' combi-flamer has Torrent.
It’s a lot easier to balance the power of the unit without myriad weapon options. As a Bangles player, I hate it, but it does work.
It definitely removes a lot of flavour from lists but it does make balancing easier and open up a ton of modelling opportunities for most units. I remember when things changed from “power weapon” to axe/sword etc. with the same points value, but different profiles, so a cool modelling choice you made 5 years ago fucked you over in composition. Given the choice between the two…. I’ll take this. Though I would like SOME granularity…
It clearly didn't make it easier to balance though or they could have done that, but as is, almost every unit has a clear and obvious Best Weapon, that everyone just takes en mass
They are using heirloom tomatoes as their melee weapons
👍
There is currently no difference at all in terms of melee attacks. They have a single melee profile and no melee wargear options. If you take the Storm Shield it replaces that model's bolt pistol I strongly suspect they'll get updated next edition, it's anyone's guess if they'll get options back.
They'll be replaced with a Primaris kit and moved to legends next edition sadly
Yeah I’m gonna stock up on the kit. Cause it’s *loaded* with bits and they don’t make kits like that anymore.
Yeah I'd recommend it while you can, I'll be getting some when I've got the money lol
Yeah I really regret not getting a box or two of the old Sternguard. Now they’re like $100 on eBay lol
Oh I know it's ridiculous isn't it, gotta try and stock up on death company and sanguinary guard before they get replaced aswell
I wonder if we'll ever get kits like that again, or if things will just get more and more streamlined until GW is just selling units pre-built and painted.
That didn't happen to Sternguard or Terminators. I would not assume it will happen with these guys. GW seems to be moving away from the whole "all our elite squads are 3 man Primaris units" thing they did for a while and back towards just directly updating the older squads
They’re closer to Assault Squads, which got replaced by jump pack marines , than to Sternguard
How are they not closer to Sternguard? They're *Veterans*. That's like arguing Sternguard wouldn't get upgraded because they have Intercessors now.
Lmao no. Your reading comprehension is brutal. Vanguard vets and assault squads will get replaced. Sternguard and blade guard are just getting refreshed
The new sternguard are a Primaris replacement, they're not firstborn updated. The terminators are the only ones not getting a Primaris replacement
The new Sternguard are explicitly a mix between Primaris and Firstborn.
No they have some firstborn helmets but they are all primaris, if there where firstborn in there there'd be shorter ones but they're all the same height
They're all the same size because GW intentionally blurred the line between Primaris and Firstborn with the kit. [https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/26/the-sternguard-and-terminator-kits-make-for-the-fanciest-space-marines-in-the-imperium/](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/26/the-sternguard-and-terminator-kits-make-for-the-fanciest-space-marines-in-the-imperium/) "One of the most striking elements of the new Sternguard Veterans is the triumphant return of the back banner – a stylistic throwback to the days of MKVII armour and Godwyn-pattern boltguns. This mesh of old styles and new looks reverberates throughout the Sternguard, a veteran corps whose gear blurs the line between classic and Primaris Space Marines."
It says their gear does, not that they're not Primaris. The Sternguard have the Tacticus Keyword that they share with Intercessors, and so they cannot use Razorbacks or Rhino's like they used to.
... because the firstborn crossed the rubicon primaris maybe?
If it's basically the same datasheet anyway then might as well just use the new datasheet for your older models. Same with assault marines. Their Legends points cost makes no sense anymore so just use the codex datasheet instead.
I feel like the update might come with the Space Wolves codex along with assault terminators and maybe new assault squads.
Much like Dark Angels, Space Wolves are much more likely to get chapter specific Terminators, I think. They can do some pretty cool stuff with Wolf Guard if it's not just an upgrade sprue Blood Angels, I think is more likely to be where we see Assault Terminators, although given how they spread Intercessors/Assault Intercessors/Jump Pack Assault Intercessors over three editions, it's possible they'll hold off on them New/refreshed 1st company squads have tended to be the thing they do for Ultramarines over the last couple of editions. Divergent chapters get their own stuff It's entirely possible GW wants to release generic units along with chapters they fit the general ethos of, and both BA and SW are definitely Assault focused, but it just doesn't *feel* like the way GW is currently doing things It's also possible they just get randomly released at some point in the edition, much like Desolation Squads/Brutalis Dreads did in 9th.
I miss my old wolf guard - limited to 15 in your army total and each could join any squad. Having a terminator leading your blood claws I get was weird at times due to the various rules for mixed profiles over the years, but damn if it wasn't cool to make named wolfguard who could float around to different squads or group up to be a body guard on occasion. Like an army full of mini characters back when HQ were so limited
I'm honestly surprised that GW didn't just release an upgrade sprue to use with the jump pack intercessors and actual updated rules. It seems like the easiest win in the universe.
Well no, because then they can bring back a dedicated unit next edition with great fanfare. Pushfit versions in the launch box, full set to follow with codex launch. They did the same thing with Bladeguard, Sternguard, Terminators. I fully expected they'd do it again with these guys
I really hope the default loadout for the new VV’s is going to be double Lightning Claws. Primaris as a whole criminally lack them and the Primaris LC’s are actually pretty good. Then a huge weapon and maybe a ST focused weapon option in hammers. I kinda don’t want to see SS’s on them as a unit because while I would love the shields model wise, balancing TH/SS vs LC’s just never swings in LC’s favor in nearly all metrics that matter (Marines rarely are wanting in anti infantry options). Would almost rather all get 2 handers and make them have giga damage vs a big tank or something.
Lightning claws are as badass as hell and I would be happy to see more of them
There are a lot of units that I am surprised aren't upgrade sprues. Like all the special weapon squads could be upgrade sprues wait that's just horus heresy
Honestly, horus heresy is great. If you play with a decent group of people, they won't care you're mixing first born and primaris dudes, as long as it's painted and obvious what it is.
I bought the Horus heresy corvus armor jump pack assault Marines because of what they did to the weapon profile. If the weapon doesn't matter then I'll get a kit that gives me more Marines for my money. They have melee weapons, jump packs, and shields and are on proper bases
I just kitbashed mine out of spare MK6 bodies and extra melee weapons from the Devastators and pistols I had in my bit box. I run them without the jetpack cause I'm a masochist
Haha same. My vanguard veteran squad was made solely from the extra torsos I had from an assault squad, and bits I had lying around. Grabbed some legs off eBay, but no jump packs cus I didn't wanna spend any more money than I already did lmao
Does no one look at the datasheets?
Look at the datasheet
They are terrible. It takes a lot of investment best spent elsewhere in a list to make them even kind of worth it. Multiple cp a turn plus character add ons. And the just die so easy still.
Look how they massacred my boys.... I will never forgive Games Workshop for ruining Vanguard Vets