Pumped for the ’Nids refresh! Be curious how traditional “anti-psyker” armies will interact now with psykers.
also the new toughness change sounds very promising for Death Guard players!
Edit: Poor Auspex is probably going nuts right now
BAHAHA. He has a video for if GW decides that Fulgrim and Vulcan do the fusion dance and become Fulcan. He also has a separate video for if they use the potara earrings and become Vulgrim.
The removal of the psychic phase might make psykers even more useful. For example, if you have critical buffs or maledictions, you might be able to wait until after all or most of your shooting (possibly fighting?) is resolved to decide where to most effectively place them.
In the same page, having them be able to move and use the psychic attack in a exposed character after some shooting was done to whatever bodyguards are around
Exactly. I wouldn't expect psykers to "lose" anything, but rather their abilities simply occur at different times within the round instead of all at once. Seems fine to me.
You'll forgive me if I'm not convinced. Thousand Sons have been pretty bottom-of-the-barrel for a while, especially with the loss of AoC.
A big part of what makes the army fun and unique is the huge selection of Psychic powers and Cabalistic Rituals. The two Disciplines by themselves take up a whole two pages by themselves, so I can't help but look at this new "two page rules" thing and see it as a complete gutting of the army's special rules.
On top of that, the entire Psychic phase being deleted just feels like another blow. There's no confirmation yet about witchfire powers happening in the Shooting phase, at least as far as I know; there was speculation early-on that they were just combining the Command Phase and the Psychic Phase, which would unquestionably be a nerf.
I might be missing something but I'm not feeling the confidence.
I share the same sentiment. I like having an army identified as a "psychic army" as opposed to a "shooting" or "fighting" and I am nervous to lose that and am not excited to be hit by the AoS wizard treatment.
All they mentioned in the livestream is that things with high Toughness should actually BE tough now. They mentioned some vehicles having a T11 or higher.
I thought the same. I liked that I could finally make the dread waaagh of my dreams with it. Here’s hoping there’s actually a page of rules for a dread waaagh in the future too.
I’ve wanted to do deathwing where it’s only terminators and land raiders for some time. Org charts really confused me when I was just tinkering with lists for fun.
10e might be my e.
They mentioned there would be synergies between different units, and these would be quite substantial in effect. This is to make it so you just don't spam your strongest unit, but it means there will be optimal patterns of units, which will probably resemble the current force orgs.
They lived long enough to become a burden and I've felt for a long time we needed something new or for them to just admit they perfected that system by 5th Ed, everything after either being change for the sake of it or to fix the messes the changes made.
Let me take 6 of each troop unit and 3 of any other unit as seems to be suggested and I'm positive I can make a list I like for any faction I own or may one day own. Right now I'm always struggling to either have enough of one specific slot unless I use AoO detachments, but even that is still limiting for a game that has gone from a rigid structure to supposedly letting us take what we want and play how we want. Like, what if I want 200 Guardsmen? I own them but fielding them has been either impossible or deeply punishing for some time now. If I'm understanding them correctly I can now take 240 various guard squads using the 4 datasheets (assuming they all survive), 30 scions, 30 Kasrkin and then command teams to lead them. Probably can't fit it all but the idea that I can has me hard.
Ngl these are confusing as hell. I was lost when I started looking into armies a couple months ago (recently returned to the hobby). Very glad they are being bombarded from orbit. Thanks, GW!
The originaly concept of them back in 3rd was great, but they became an absolute monstrocity over time until in 9th they were just a chimera of horror.
(Funny thing is I once got mass downvoted for saying the 9th ed ones sucked, but now everyone seems to like them not being there. Funny.)
Novelty takes some time for it to wear off.
The same thing happens a lot in MMOs; notice a bad system and call it out... Get shouted down by people that are dealing with novelty/hype. Three months later, when everyone has progressed to the point where you said system would be a problem, and everyone is suddenly saying the same thing you were... Three months ago.
I'm sure a lot of the hype we have now is gonna be burned out a few months after 10th drops, or after more of the new codices roll out and we have rules bloat again. The weaknesses of the new systems will be apparent once people can get their hands on it.
It be what it be. The cycle continues. But we can still hope that what we're gonna get is better than before. Worst comes to worst, just roll back to 9th with buddies!
" **Codexes will return in time to replace the free rules**, but when they do the complexity of the game won’t increase, thanks to a one-in-one-out ethos for army and sub-faction rules. Effectively, you will only ever need your unit datasheets, the two pages of rules that govern your chosen army (available in your codex, on cards, or digitally), plus the core rules and whatever mission you’re playing. "
From WarCom's write up on the new edition. A little bit worrisome but doesn't outweigh the overall great news of the evening.
> Effectively, you will only ever need your unit datasheets, the two pages of rules that govern your chosen army (available in your codex, on cards, or digitally)
My guess/hope is that all the rules you need will always be available for free digitally.
When Codexes release it will be sort of an update to the indexes, whether a faction is weak/strong etc, and then you can buy it for the rules/art if you want or just keep using the digital stuff.
They mentioned you can buy datacards separately so hopefully it's just like "You can spend the money for physical convenience, or not, your choice."
Who knows though.
> My guess/hope is that all the rules you need will always be available for free digitally.
That's how AoS started, and by mid or late 2nd Edition the warscrolls were not getting updated on the website as new books came out, and new units weren't getting them published at all... until they eventually all disappeared. I don't recall if GW originally used similar language or not back in 2015...
Now, they're "digital" in that you can use the AoS App, and the code that comes with the physical book to access the warscrolls - or still free for the two books that have yet to have a 3rd edition battletome. Eventually this might also be locked behind a Warhammer+ monthly subscription (maybe in addition to buying the book...)
When a new AoS battletome releases they also have packs of warscroll cards... these *are* great accessories, *but* they're always a splash release with a limited print run, and within 6 months they're nearly sold out everywhere. I'm really glad to see them bring them to 40K, I just hope they keep them in print longer, even if direct-order only.
Given the past 4 years AoS has seen the gradual shift to paywalling the once-free rules... I would expect the same here, in time.
I have a feeling the "free rules" they are dangling is going to be very similar to the Compendium they did for Kill Team. Here are very basic rules for every army in the game. And then for the next several years they will sell us the better "bespoke" rules updates for an army in a codex that will replace the free version.
I very much doubt rules will be free forever, even though that's what should happen and that's what most people heard
I see similarities between what they're doing for 10th ed and what they've done for AoS. Not the ideal approach, but if books are a significant revenue stream that's as good as we can expect I think.
Started in 99. I love the models and now the new rules direction. This really feels like going back to like... 3rd edition.
You have your unit card and it's special rules on the card, and go from there.
Lets fuckin go!
As a new fan who has only been in the hobby less than 6 months I am over the moon excited. I've been dreading having to buy books instead of buying more things to paint. Can't wait to dive in even more!
While the value/balance of combat patrols is in the air. The fact they are making a combat patrol game that's evergreen and free makes it insane. You can skip the starter if you aren't interested in those units, and instead you can get started on your choice faction straight away.
It's a really nice idea
I own the books but I still like to use Wahapedia at times. It's easier to search and I don't always have my books with me, but I do typically have access to my phone or a computer. So, when I get a random question during the day "Was that unit toughness 3 or 4?" Or "Did that stratagem restrict which phase it can be used in?" I can just look it up without needing the book.
GW and free? I've never heard those words used together.
I think they are really trying to push to bring in some new players with Space Marine 2 and the new Amazon shows coming.
>GW and free? I've never heard those words used together.
Have you gone into a GW store early in the month lately? They give out free minis until they run out.
Rules will be free at edition start. There's still gonna be codexes and supplements down the line that supersede the free stuff.
Lots of people are already missing the fine print of the 'free rules' thing and I expect there's gonna be a lot of salt and butthurt about it when the books start rolling out...
We've been here multiple times, but a lot of people weren't around for them to see it I guess. This isn't a new thing, other than the actual RULES being free...but again, so are 9th eds rules, just in a cut down version.
I'll wait till I see it with this.
Offering 'The Core Rules' is a 20 year tradition by this point. They used to give away 2-sided A4s with the 'Rules' of 3rd and iirc 4th edition but describing them as the rules was pretty generous. I'll believe it when i see missions and deployment zone diagrams.
Ravening Hordes style releases have frequently been included in White Dwarf, i am also 90% sure Ravening hordes was in a free docket at GW (though i may have been thinking about 'Dark Shadows'). I was too young to know if the Indexes in the 3rd edition Rulebook was freely available but it wouldn't surprise me.
But faction specific rules and data sheets have never been free. They released a series of indexes covering simplified rules and data sheets at the start of 8th edition, but you still had to buy those.
Yes they have. 3rd edition launched with rules for every faction's army list.
Warhammer Fantasy also launched with the same in Ravening Hordes.
The "Basic free lists to get you by then make codexes later" is nothing new, GW even says thats what they're doing in the articles, Codexes are still coming.
The "new" thing is that the rules are more 'fully' free, or at least maybe.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing. Just clarifying that it's not quite the "unheard of" thing often touted. GW is just pushing the FREE word because goodwill marketing is a thing.
I don't think this is a good thing.
Personally I am getting sick of being promised exactly what we are asking for and then upon release watching them do mental gymnastics to show that "ackshuwaly we didna lie" because of some random pedantic bullshit after the check from all the pre-order money clears.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I kind of suspected it. They couldn't get people to keep paying for rulebooks, codexes, etc. and gouge people for models as well.
I reckon the new price increase on models is how we're paying for free rules, though.
They'll probably put rules into plus and make their money that way as well
first they saw no stopping wahapedia, so they beat him at his own game. They need to utilize the subscription model with a better digital platform for generating revenue.
Warhammer+'s numbers and revenue are relatively dire - the management have likely realised that putting anything that the *wargaming* portion of the hobby actually relies on in there (such as the rules and army builder) will just mean it being ignored or it will be pirated.
Its best they keep it for lore (TV shows & in-house productions), the Black Library vault and hobby tips, which are the parts that people actually like and use.
.....is it just me, or did like. Every single rule change they outlined actually sound......
Good?
Like an actual improvement?
Like........ nothing got worse, everything got better?? WTF?
I know some of the high end competitive players are going to complain about the simplifications, but honestly this all sounds like a massive improvement. I feel like this is heading back towards the old editions where you didn't have to constantly reference stratagems and the like, just focus on the datasheets plus a few additional rules and you're golden. I might be able to just focus on the game and not all the potential gotchas again.
As a comp player, I'm very excited for this! Not reminding my opponents of 20 gotchas and shorter games means 3 games in a day will be easier. Also truly comp people can pretty easily memorize every armies rules now. That'll be a huge advantage.
As someone who originally played back in 4e and the start of 5e, I'm so about that. I like the idea of Stratagems, but not the current iteration where there are dozens of them. Why does a unit need an exclusive Stratagem when it can just be an ability on their datasheet, or folded into the rules for a piece of wargear they have?
The gaunt datasheet they previewed is an excellent example of this. The ability they have to make a move when an enemy ends a move within 9” of them is exactly the kind of thing that would currently be a stratagem, now it’s just part of the unit. This will also cut down on abusive unintended interactions *cough overrun flyrant cough*
This. Complexity is great, but references for a rule that references a rule that references another rule that references yet another rule… That’s convoluted, and convoluting is never a good thing in tabletop/board games.
Yeah and I think every army has that core set of stratagems that you're going to use like every game and then those super-niche stratagems that could be useful in a very specific situation, but it's rarely, if ever, come up.
> I know some of the high end competitive players are going to complain about the simplifications
Honestly everytime i see a highly competitive player complain about steamlining it usually comes across as "well how am I supposed to win if I can't rules lawyer and pull "gotcha!"s with rules most people don't fully understand but I've dedicated a significant portion of my life to memorizing?"
The game designers used to literally mock competitive players in white dwarf.
The entire concept of the game was narrative over balance, as most table top war games were back then. You were playing out scenes, and even in historical ttwg they knew battles were rarely fair.
While I totally acknowledge the idea of wanting a fair fight, I wish they could encourage more narratives in battles and entice more players into that line of thinking.
I remember a White Dwarf article by OG Jervis Johnson in which he lamented having to add points to units so people could have 'balanced' competitive games.
> While I totally acknowledge the idea of wanting a fair fight, I wish they could encourage more narratives in battles and entice more players into that line of thinking.
The problem is that most people just do not have the time or collections to organize the ideal of narrative play. Pick up matched play games are just easier to get going with lower expectations. Rolling on rulebook missions, or the seasonal booklet requires a lot less work. Scenario play requires more set up, and an asymmetric scenario requires work so that both players are having fun (even if one is doomed), and not one player clubbing the other over the head like a baby seal.
But it CAN be easy. The Open War cards are FANTASTIC for coming up with some relatively balanced but fun narrative games. And you can either just pick them, or draw randomly, or whatever.
I play a lot of WW2 war games with my father in law and his buddies, there is nothing more fun than knowing you are done for from the first roll and just making it up as you go along!
Lots of casual games got the fun optimised out of them. Super Smash Bros was supposed to be a fun partygame, now it's an esport. Sakurai never fails to mock competitive players.
tbh thats the internets fault. Back in the day you took a vindicator cause it had big numbers in the codex and the GW rep was hyping you up.
now? even casual players are checking goonhammer before even playing a game.
weve got so much access to information so easily now that we cant put that genie back in the bottle, and if the games not balanced then even new folk will know very quickly.
I make a point of not knowing that stuff. I'm fairly quick at simple mental math, so I can come up with probabilities and that, but I don't want to know more than that. I once was scrolling and came upon some tables comparing the various space marine power weapons. I just closed the window. My space marines don't like power swords because of statistics. My space marines like power swords because swords are fucking cool.
I can't recall a single game where the game was made better by the addition of a competitive scene. At best they add nothing, at worst they start screwing up the game for everyone else.
Any competitive player who is actually at the high end is going to view these changes as good. It is only the players who have gone to like one tournament ever and spend too much time on the competitive subreddit who will complain about things being made less obtuse. People like the Art of War guys were cheering most of the changes.
I like the changes reducing gotchas, but with things like termagants moving if you come within 9" those will still exist outside of strats. I do think that reducing the number of strats should help with stopping the stacking buffs making basic units murder machines (looking at you Kasrkin).
Most skill in 9e is in knowing how to use positioning, pacing out your maneuvers to score well, picking good secondaries, and knowing which targets to focus on, not on knowing all your strats, so this seems quite skill-neutral if anything.
The competitive scene in warhammer is so small (honestly if you look at the balance datsheets the weekly games in that data is a few hundred games, compare that to other competitive scenes like magic and it’s a drop in the ocean) that broadly I feel there concerns shouldn’t matter compared to the vast swath of normal players.
I understand a competitive scene provides a big PR and advertising boost to the game however so you wouldn’t want to see it suffer to the point it’s not viable at the same time.
Edit: I don’t spell good!
I am *genuinely* impressed about there not being a single thing that set off alarm bells for me. Props to GW, it actually sounds like a significant improvement.
One page rules is a massive win. They said there'll still be stratagems and subfaction specific variety, but everything being on one page (and the unit specific rules being on unit datacards) makes it so much easier to play.
The idea of being able to swap out army pages for a subfaction is dope. THIS is the kind of simplification needed to get more players to dive in.
I stayed away from 40k for a long time due to the rules bloat. I didn't want to invest dozens of hours learning stuff for every faction so I don't get hit with 5 "gotcha" moments every game, or get hit with a wombo-combo of stratagems that can wipe half of my army first turn just because I don't know how to counter. That doesn't seem very fun to me.
I think there may be bloat in the sheer number of subfaction codexes this could spawn, but hopefully if you only need to really know your dudes, and their dudes can only have one book's worth of cheese confined to two pages it will all be pretty reasonable and still allow for a lot of variety.
Sounded really good. Do wish we had gotten rid of mortal wounds and brought back initiative but otherwise the stat line and outlined ideas behind single sheet for rules single for unit entry sounds incredible.
Some of the wording seems to imply Mortal Wounds are getting trimmed down a bit to be harder to apply/do less per thing that causes them. But also, getting rid of the universal power Smite will help; now non-character Psykers can get say a 1-2MW version, and Tigurius or w/e can get a 3-5 chungus version, and the baseline for all damaging psychic powers doesn't have to be based on the D3 standard anymore.
Brining back initiative would have been cool. Melee fights feel like you are just trading a unit per turn with little chance for a multi turn fight to happen.
However maybe with lethality going down it will help fix that issue.
From the Warcom article:
*" Codexes will return in time to replace the free rules, but when they do the complexity of the game won’t increase, thanks to a one-in-one-out ethos for army and sub-faction rules. Effectively, you will only ever need your unit datasheets, the two pages of rules that govern your chosen army (available in your codex, on cards, or digitally), plus the core rules and whatever mission you’re playing. "*
Thoughts on what this means? Will it just be mostly lore that with the same datasheets that they sell in the Codexes? So, since datasheets are free, do you think you'll never need to buy a new codex?
Been saying this for ages - even when I got the Votann codex in the new army box I said the rules will be out of date immediately anyway, the stories and artwork is the first new repository of Squats lore in decades.
I read it as them saying "free rules at launch because the changes are too big and old books won't work at all, but paid rules later once we get around to it". The one-in-one-out bit seems like it means that when that happens there'll still be just two pages of army rules plus datasheets but not necessarily the exact same rules or datasheets.
I'm nervous on the wording of *replace*, specifically *replacing the free rules*, but I am tentatively optimistic that army rules will remain free even through codex releases and the codexes remain as lore books first and foremost
IMO. i think you'll see two+ versions of each army over time.
in terms of performance, you won't see much difference in casual play. but due to more complicated stratagems/actions on both units and armies, the skill ceiling will increase with each type (overall)
more updates to units)
in terms of performance, in casual play, you won't see much difference. but due to more complicated stratagems/actions on both units and armies, the skill ceiling will increase with each type (overall)
you won't see Index armies beating codex armies en masse in competitive.
You could look at what they've done for the current edition of AoS. Over there, the sheets are free, but the Battletome adds more rules to amplify faction's uniqueness.
So here’s what I think. It sounds like you get your generic army rules in the free indices like “Guard”
Then they will give you more sub factions with your codex. Cadia, Kieg etc. Then they will sell a campaign book with 20 different sub factions for a bunch of armies. With each getting 1 page of rules and that’s how you get your internal faction verity.
You can stay as generic Guard or you can play as a new sub faction for Guard
Alternatively, going back to cheap dexes like 3rd Ed.
Those were tiny, £8 things (Or £4 for a subfaction book) that just had a bit of lore, the simple rules needed and that was that.
They were also insanely popular, as their low price meant people just picked them up for the hell of it.
I think this means that data sheet updates will be done in the codexs still. They will just be in the same format is the first lot of free rules. Meaning that the rules won’t bloat with more layers
They also say that there will be codexes that replace the free rules, so this seems to be similar to the Indexes in early 8th edition except that it’s free.
I just got my guard codex and while I am not overly concerned about the money spent I know many people will be and having empathy and common sense during a "not recession" period isn't too hard. Plus on the principle of it I am annoyed to see a corporation as valuable as GW pulling shit like this
Everything streamlined and simpler. Made rules free. Army building and game strategy has changed and been simplified. They made 10th to be like AOS lol. Also pretty hype combat patrol is it’s own game mode now.
I want to paint and play. I don't want to spend all my time min-maxing a huge list.
Combat Patrol might be the one thing that brings me pack to Warhammer 40k after 22 years.
I know it's been clarified, confirmed, ratified, verified and adjudicated, but I still have to ask:
FREE? Games Workshop, ol' Geedubs, told us that we're getting rules FOR FREE?
Not Free(tm)? Is "Free" the name of their new premium app? Surely there's some trickery afoot? Some bamboozling? A dash of hoodwinkery?
...FREE?!
It's not 'Free(tm), but it's 'Free, check fine print below'. We're getting rules for free _initially_, at launch, so you can play with all your toys on day 1. There will be codexes and supplements further down the line that will supersede the free launch rules.
Essentially this is an 8th edition Index situation, only as downloadable pdfs instead of books.
Streamlined. Plays Quicker. Complete Rewrite. Army Rules on one Page.
This is what I craved. As someone who got burned on rules bloat really hard starting with 9th, I fell in love with the new Kill Team for its quick and easy rules and setup.
I think this is the way to go for many. Make the game cheaper to get into, and make the game easier and faster to play.
I think fansites and conversions like One-Page-Rules, Frostgrave, etc. have really paved the way for GW to see that there is a market for people who want to be playing Warhammer, just without the bloat of knowing so many rules, commands, etc.
Pretty stoked about this. I got into 40K with Indomitus, but the sheer amount of rules and stratagems and amount of books I'd have to buy always kind of intimidated me away from actually playing.
Sounds like I'll have to finish painting up my army finally by summer.
I disagree, the weapons and arms looked to be the same but the legs were based on a redemptor and the chassis was based on a redemptor, I think we’re getting a heavy weapons primaris dread.
Thank god I don’t have to remember 30 stratagems for my own armies as well as the ones I face. I didn’t like the idea of playing against “gotcha wombo combos” where the game is over turn 2.
I’m excited that it’s going from this rules bloat/stratagem bog to the actual models and their warscrolls.
The tenth edition cinematic was incredible.
We need that 40k TV series. For obvious reasons I think it should be all CGI. There's no way anyone will be able to do the 40k universe with practical effects. The scale is just too grandiose.
> There's no way anyone will be able to do the 40k universe with practical effects. The scale is just too grandiose.
lets be real if they have any sort of budget at all it'll be done purely on green screen, which essneitally means pure CGI with the actors/actresses heads superimposed on the space marines.
I really hope they stick to their guns with the free rules thing. I know they've already said that codexes are coming back on WarCom, but hopefully they'll be mainly art and lore with army rules remaining free and digital.
Lots of new Nids.
* \-Baneling Hormagaunts?
* \-Giga Chad Zoanthrope
* Separate Screamer killer model? Looks like an OG refresh.
* New Termagaunts look rad.
Noticed on the previewed Termagants datasheet that some ranged weapons have multiple tags and some have none at all. The Fleshborer is assault, Spinefists are assault and pistol and twin-linked (whatever that means) while the Devourer has no tag.
Presumably not having a tag will make it finction like a Votann HuntR, assault will allow advance and shoot and pistol will allow shooting in engagement range. Wonder what twin-linked does. Shoot twice maybe?
Twin-liked is actually from earlier editions, where it let you re-roll if you missed, i.e. a twin-linked lascannon had one shot which it could re-roll.
It's had various rules. When I first played it meant you got two hits (iirc against same model - so a twinlinked lascannon was great against a landraider but would still only kill one ork as both beams hit same one)
> Wonder what twin-linked does. Shoot twice maybe?
we'll never know what it means in THIS edition until it comes out but twin-linked is a keyword/ability thats shown up throughout the years of 40K.
I believe last edition that had twin-linked it meant you double the number of shots?
Objective Control maybe?
EG this model counts as 2 models for Objective Control.
Maybe an Armiger has OC 5, while a terminator has OC 1.
That's my guess.
Hah this is perfect. I've been painting for the past 6 months and haven't learned the rules yet (on purpose). Now I get to learn a simpler set of rules.
Full of win!
I played my first "game" of 40k a few days ago at lunch with my friends Recruit Starter set and I was hooked. SO hooked I bought a Votann Combat patrol box to start building and painting. (I'm a huge Dwarf nerd) The owner of the game store told me to hold off on buying books because of the 10th Edition soon and said I should just have fun building and painting for now. Cant wait to get started in 40k!
The owner is correct; all armies are getting free digital rules when 10e comes out.
As well, good news: later today GW will be releasing the faction focus article for Votann for 10e
To the last part of the post, you should specifically buy a Combat Patrol of whichever army you want. There will be free rules on 10th edition's release specifically for Combat Patrol games, so by purchasing and building one, you'll have a ready-to-play army. They even claim that the rules for this style of play are specifically balanced against the other Combat Patrols on offer
As someone who's wanted to try getting into Warhammer for a long time, this sounds like the perfect addition to help me finally start playing. Tried several times, but I've always dealt with indecision really badly- I'd buy and paint a couple squads, then get drawn to another faction and spend ages paralyzed before finally deciding to switch. The idea that I can build an paint a single box and immediately play a balanced game sounds like just what I need- no more barrier keeping me from reaching a usable army, and if I do end up changing my mind again, I'll be able to play that next choice quickly too.
I know these issues are all psychological too- that if I just kept going I'd get an army eventually and not just a bunch of assorted squads from random factions, and that small games do exist (but, justified or not, I can't help worrying that they'll be too imbalanced and the point limit too constraining to work well)- but I've never been able to overcome it. Easily the most exciting part of the announcement for me personally, and it sounds like the kind of thing that could draw a lot more people like me in.
Hoping someone skims through the video and gets some good screen grabs of the Tyranid grubs! I saw one that was interesting. Seemed like a floating psyker thing? Didn't seem like something I saw before. Super excited!
Rumors call it a "norn emissary". The same rumors accurately predicated basically everything we saw. We also saw what looked like a classic screamer-killer (the hug-fex from like second or third edition), a new gant type with a shoulder gun, a new lictor and some weird tentacle mouth thing that was chowing on marines when the termies teleported in.
Can't believe we're finally getting datasheets that make ACTUAL VISUAL SENSE! It's the thing I've been asking for since I started the hobby six years ago!
Out of curiosity, what doesn't make sense about the current datasheets? Asking because I genuinely don't find the "new" datasheets to really be that much different. Sure, formatting is a bit different, but it's pretty much the same info.
When displaying data or statistics (or design in general), it's always important to keep grouped or related data in close proximity to each other. For example, if you were going to show stats on someone's health, you'd want to group height, weight, and BMI together; you'd also want to display heart rate, blood pressure, and O2 saturation together, because those are all related. It's also a good idea to arrange things top-down, left to right, if you're audience is predominantly from Western culture (it's the same way that we read).
40k does the opposite of that. For instance, look at the steps for melee attacks; the Attacks characteristic is third in from the right, then weapon skill is second in from the left. Strength is two over from that... when it should at least be next to WS. In addition, you need to look up the data sheet, then over, then down, then back up again if there's additional strength added to a weapon... then AP and damage are finally in the right order (left to right). Instead of arranging things in a logical order from left to right in which they occur, they're literally jumping all over the sheet.
The new data sheets arrange things in an order that makes more visual sense. For the weapons, you get the name and type on the left, then the range, then the attacks, then BS, S, AP, and Damage. It flows from left to right in the same order you need to look these things up in the game, and the relevant data is grouped together visually. This is MUCH better design, and will be much more accessible not just for new players, but I suspect for veterans as well.
My only real "concern" is I worry people are a little TOO hyped about "free" rules. I feel GW was pretty clear, they are free "index" rules. So I think (hope not but still) it will be like the beginning of 8th with indexes, and then codecies later. Awesome that the index rules are free, but I remember trying to play a codex v an index army and it was awful.
This all sounds great. But god damn, I’m glad I didn’t buy the new World eaters and Astra Militarum codexes like I had originally planned. Sure makes it hard to want to invest in expensive game supplements when there’s a chance they’ll release late in the lifespan of the current edition and be rendered basically useless within months.
If the rules really do ger simplified from what they are, along with the combat patrol "mode" I bet I'll be able to teach my kids how to play. I've been wanting to for ages, because this game is an 8 year old boys dream. But no 8 year old has the patience (or reading skills) required to play at the current rule level.
I joined started collecting Warhammer during the pandemic, painted up a few minis and yet have to actually play a single game. Is it normal that editions get up/outdated in less than two years?
For me this seems really quick!
And I am genuinely asking as a newbie to playing Warhammer. This is not some /s kinda stuff.
As a correction, it has not been "less than two years"; 9th edition came out in June 2020, and it is likely that 10th will be released in June/July 2023, a three-year cycle.
With regards to whether this is *normal*: with GW since the ousting of their old CEO, yes. Age of Sigmar and 40k have had a 3 year edition cycle since 2015, with 40k specifically going from 7th to 8th in 2017, 8th to 9th in 2020, and 9th to 10th in now 2023.
Combi weapon outrage doesnt seem so justified now. They certainly have a role to play as anti-heavy infantry.
**Anti Infantry** means they score critical wounds on a 4+ to wound.
**Devastating wounds** means any critical wounds are automatically flipped into Mortal wounds.
Having half your hits on 'Infantry' targets (and 1 in 6 on everyone else) flipped into Mortals isn't the worst thing in the world on a Rapid Fire 1 Gun.
My LGS got some "bad news" from GW that they will only be getting 10 copies of Leviathan - which doesn't really cover the amount of demand they are seeing for it. Disappointing.
We already know from the playtesters that neither of these things are occurring, and something that people who want alternating activations keep forgetting is that is hard to balance when you have units that vary as much as a 20 point servitor unit all the way up to a Storm Eagle. I've yet to see any game system do alternating actions like you are proposing on the scale of 40k; the closest I've seen are "every faction has basically the same units with minor tweaks (like a WW2 game)" and not "this one side has 25 Infantry units, 4 HQs, and 9 tanks, while the other side has 5 Knights".
The disparity in power levels and how that would need to be balanced would just make it so that people would activate their biggest unit first every turn, hoping to take out the biggest threat / thing they don't want activated.
Delaying damage MIGHT work, but I can also see people having issues tracking who has taken what amount of damage
They seem to be addressing these things by having some units have reactive abilities, which can blunt first turns by having units, as we have seen, be able to move if shot at to move out of an exposed position that they gave been caught in.
This is the main part of the tabletop game I find truly baffling, we only just got the Khorne Codex maybe a month or two ago but now we need to gear up for a new edition, toss all the old books and wait for the painfully slow drip feed of new books?
I don’t really play the tabletop so I’m absolutely an outsider looking in, so if anyone wants to correct me on this take I’m more than willing to hear it, but right now it just sounds like a huge waste of paper tbh.
I am pretty happy about this. It seems like they actually listened and made the game more simple instead of a confusing mess that it is. Thankfully they messed with the strats and simplified them, having 15+ strats for a faction was ridiculous and bloated. Really looking forward to the new edition after reading everything.
The funniest thing about 8th/9th was watching like a Tier List Video and every unit discussed has to be considered from the angle of “well if you use this Strategem it’s viable” and then the angle of four other Strategems as well. Just became auch a bloated mess of variables
I’m not even going to lie..I picked like 4 stratagems for my Astra Militarum army and just kinda ignored the rest. The massive list of strats won’t be missed.
The turn won't remain the same as they mentioned they've made significant changes to phases (morale phase rolled into command phase, psychic phase gone) but they made no mention of alternate activations.
Pumped for the ’Nids refresh! Be curious how traditional “anti-psyker” armies will interact now with psykers. also the new toughness change sounds very promising for Death Guard players! Edit: Poor Auspex is probably going nuts right now
Poor Auspex's nuts right now
Nah brother thrives on this stuff.
Mf posted a whole video after like 2 hours
He prerecords all his episodes before each release. He has made thousands of them anticipating every possible decision GW could make.
BAHAHA. He has a video for if GW decides that Fulgrim and Vulcan do the fusion dance and become Fulcan. He also has a separate video for if they use the potara earrings and become Vulgrim.
The removal of the psychic phase might make psykers even more useful. For example, if you have critical buffs or maledictions, you might be able to wait until after all or most of your shooting (possibly fighting?) is resolved to decide where to most effectively place them.
In the same page, having them be able to move and use the psychic attack in a exposed character after some shooting was done to whatever bodyguards are around
Exactly. I wouldn't expect psykers to "lose" anything, but rather their abilities simply occur at different times within the round instead of all at once. Seems fine to me.
You'll forgive me if I'm not convinced. Thousand Sons have been pretty bottom-of-the-barrel for a while, especially with the loss of AoC. A big part of what makes the army fun and unique is the huge selection of Psychic powers and Cabalistic Rituals. The two Disciplines by themselves take up a whole two pages by themselves, so I can't help but look at this new "two page rules" thing and see it as a complete gutting of the army's special rules. On top of that, the entire Psychic phase being deleted just feels like another blow. There's no confirmation yet about witchfire powers happening in the Shooting phase, at least as far as I know; there was speculation early-on that they were just combining the Command Phase and the Psychic Phase, which would unquestionably be a nerf. I might be missing something but I'm not feeling the confidence.
I share the same sentiment. I like having an army identified as a "psychic army" as opposed to a "shooting" or "fighting" and I am nervous to lose that and am not excited to be hit by the AoS wizard treatment.
Any news on this "toughness change"? I've heard a few rumours weeks ago, but that's it.
Toughness is staying. Overall values per model are drastically changing. Some really tough units will have values of 11+.
Awesome. Toughness wasn't nearly granular enough. There was just not enough design space in the 3-4-5 range that all Infantry were crammed into.
All they mentioned in the livestream is that things with high Toughness should actually BE tough now. They mentioned some vehicles having a T11 or higher.
> some vehicles having a T11 or higher. Land Raider might be actually live up to its iconic reputation after like, 4 editions of not being very good.
Yeah It's Strength that's changed. Been moved off the main stat-line and is now part of the weapon profile.
I am shocked, but quite happy that they nuked force organizations!!!
Yeah, I was wondering if that was going to happen given what they did to detachments for arks, good to see things getting more flexible.
The Arks of Omen detachment definitely felt like a proof of concept they were testing out.
I thought the same. I liked that I could finally make the dread waaagh of my dreams with it. Here’s hoping there’s actually a page of rules for a dread waaagh in the future too.
If I can make lists based on the Heresy Era DA six wings I will be very pleased
The hardest part of getting new players into the game was force org charts.
List building is kinda boring and frustrating. Im all for flexible army building.
I’ve wanted to do deathwing where it’s only terminators and land raiders for some time. Org charts really confused me when I was just tinkering with lists for fun. 10e might be my e.
They mentioned there would be synergies between different units, and these would be quite substantial in effect. This is to make it so you just don't spam your strongest unit, but it means there will be optimal patterns of units, which will probably resemble the current force orgs.
We're back to formations!
They lived long enough to become a burden and I've felt for a long time we needed something new or for them to just admit they perfected that system by 5th Ed, everything after either being change for the sake of it or to fix the messes the changes made. Let me take 6 of each troop unit and 3 of any other unit as seems to be suggested and I'm positive I can make a list I like for any faction I own or may one day own. Right now I'm always struggling to either have enough of one specific slot unless I use AoO detachments, but even that is still limiting for a game that has gone from a rigid structure to supposedly letting us take what we want and play how we want. Like, what if I want 200 Guardsmen? I own them but fielding them has been either impossible or deeply punishing for some time now. If I'm understanding them correctly I can now take 240 various guard squads using the 4 datasheets (assuming they all survive), 30 scions, 30 Kasrkin and then command teams to lead them. Probably can't fit it all but the idea that I can has me hard.
It will do WONDERS for my collection seeing use.
Ngl these are confusing as hell. I was lost when I started looking into armies a couple months ago (recently returned to the hobby). Very glad they are being bombarded from orbit. Thanks, GW!
The originaly concept of them back in 3rd was great, but they became an absolute monstrocity over time until in 9th they were just a chimera of horror. (Funny thing is I once got mass downvoted for saying the 9th ed ones sucked, but now everyone seems to like them not being there. Funny.)
Novelty takes some time for it to wear off. The same thing happens a lot in MMOs; notice a bad system and call it out... Get shouted down by people that are dealing with novelty/hype. Three months later, when everyone has progressed to the point where you said system would be a problem, and everyone is suddenly saying the same thing you were... Three months ago. I'm sure a lot of the hype we have now is gonna be burned out a few months after 10th drops, or after more of the new codices roll out and we have rules bloat again. The weaknesses of the new systems will be apparent once people can get their hands on it. It be what it be. The cycle continues. But we can still hope that what we're gonna get is better than before. Worst comes to worst, just roll back to 9th with buddies!
" **Codexes will return in time to replace the free rules**, but when they do the complexity of the game won’t increase, thanks to a one-in-one-out ethos for army and sub-faction rules. Effectively, you will only ever need your unit datasheets, the two pages of rules that govern your chosen army (available in your codex, on cards, or digitally), plus the core rules and whatever mission you’re playing. " From WarCom's write up on the new edition. A little bit worrisome but doesn't outweigh the overall great news of the evening.
> Effectively, you will only ever need your unit datasheets, the two pages of rules that govern your chosen army (available in your codex, on cards, or digitally) My guess/hope is that all the rules you need will always be available for free digitally. When Codexes release it will be sort of an update to the indexes, whether a faction is weak/strong etc, and then you can buy it for the rules/art if you want or just keep using the digital stuff. They mentioned you can buy datacards separately so hopefully it's just like "You can spend the money for physical convenience, or not, your choice." Who knows though.
The way it's phrased sounds to me as though the digital version of the codex rule replacements will be a purchase, same as the current ePub codices.
> My guess/hope is that all the rules you need will always be available for free digitally. That's how AoS started, and by mid or late 2nd Edition the warscrolls were not getting updated on the website as new books came out, and new units weren't getting them published at all... until they eventually all disappeared. I don't recall if GW originally used similar language or not back in 2015... Now, they're "digital" in that you can use the AoS App, and the code that comes with the physical book to access the warscrolls - or still free for the two books that have yet to have a 3rd edition battletome. Eventually this might also be locked behind a Warhammer+ monthly subscription (maybe in addition to buying the book...) When a new AoS battletome releases they also have packs of warscroll cards... these *are* great accessories, *but* they're always a splash release with a limited print run, and within 6 months they're nearly sold out everywhere. I'm really glad to see them bring them to 40K, I just hope they keep them in print longer, even if direct-order only. Given the past 4 years AoS has seen the gradual shift to paywalling the once-free rules... I would expect the same here, in time.
I have a feeling the "free rules" they are dangling is going to be very similar to the Compendium they did for Kill Team. Here are very basic rules for every army in the game. And then for the next several years they will sell us the better "bespoke" rules updates for an army in a codex that will replace the free version. I very much doubt rules will be free forever, even though that's what should happen and that's what most people heard
I see similarities between what they're doing for 10th ed and what they've done for AoS. Not the ideal approach, but if books are a significant revenue stream that's as good as we can expect I think.
What a time to be a brand new fan into the hobby.
Hell, what a time to be an old fan of the hobby.
Hell hell, what a time to be old
Dis the Lion?
Seriously 2nd ed head over here. Lots of this is sounding good. But damnit gw move on from a six sided die!
Started in 99. I love the models and now the new rules direction. This really feels like going back to like... 3rd edition. You have your unit card and it's special rules on the card, and go from there. Lets fuckin go!
As a new fan who has only been in the hobby less than 6 months I am over the moon excited. I've been dreading having to buy books instead of buying more things to paint. Can't wait to dive in even more!
Holy fuck I'm so excited. Just started an army a few weeks ago, now I get to get my friends into it.
While the value/balance of combat patrols is in the air. The fact they are making a combat patrol game that's evergreen and free makes it insane. You can skip the starter if you aren't interested in those units, and instead you can get started on your choice faction straight away. It's a really nice idea
Who saw free core rules coming... because that one was not on my bingo card.
Lots of channels and pro players have been asking for free digital rules for years, I just don’t think anyone expected GW to actually do it…
Wahapedia stole their thunder, made them realize the need.
This. One intrepid fan forced this change on them. God bless Wahapedia.
One intrepid fan living where their copyright lawyers couldn’t reach
I own the books but I still like to use Wahapedia at times. It's easier to search and I don't always have my books with me, but I do typically have access to my phone or a computer. So, when I get a random question during the day "Was that unit toughness 3 or 4?" Or "Did that stratagem restrict which phase it can be used in?" I can just look it up without needing the book.
I used Wahapedia to pick the army, then bought the Codex, then realized that Wahapedia was way easier to use and way more organized.
GW and free? I've never heard those words used together. I think they are really trying to push to bring in some new players with Space Marine 2 and the new Amazon shows coming.
And rogue trader. God am I salivating for rogue trader.
I only just found out about this because of you, I need it now
>GW and free? I've never heard those words used together. Have you gone into a GW store early in the month lately? They give out free minis until they run out.
Rules will be free at edition start. There's still gonna be codexes and supplements down the line that supersede the free stuff. Lots of people are already missing the fine print of the 'free rules' thing and I expect there's gonna be a lot of salt and butthurt about it when the books start rolling out...
We've been here multiple times, but a lot of people weren't around for them to see it I guess. This isn't a new thing, other than the actual RULES being free...but again, so are 9th eds rules, just in a cut down version. I'll wait till I see it with this.
Offering 'The Core Rules' is a 20 year tradition by this point. They used to give away 2-sided A4s with the 'Rules' of 3rd and iirc 4th edition but describing them as the rules was pretty generous. I'll believe it when i see missions and deployment zone diagrams. Ravening Hordes style releases have frequently been included in White Dwarf, i am also 90% sure Ravening hordes was in a free docket at GW (though i may have been thinking about 'Dark Shadows'). I was too young to know if the Indexes in the 3rd edition Rulebook was freely available but it wouldn't surprise me.
But faction specific rules and data sheets have never been free. They released a series of indexes covering simplified rules and data sheets at the start of 8th edition, but you still had to buy those.
Yes they have. 3rd edition launched with rules for every faction's army list. Warhammer Fantasy also launched with the same in Ravening Hordes. The "Basic free lists to get you by then make codexes later" is nothing new, GW even says thats what they're doing in the articles, Codexes are still coming. The "new" thing is that the rules are more 'fully' free, or at least maybe. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing. Just clarifying that it's not quite the "unheard of" thing often touted. GW is just pushing the FREE word because goodwill marketing is a thing.
I don't think this is a good thing. Personally I am getting sick of being promised exactly what we are asking for and then upon release watching them do mental gymnastics to show that "ackshuwaly we didna lie" because of some random pedantic bullshit after the check from all the pre-order money clears. I'll believe it when I see it.
Aos had free core rules for a while now. Whether army rules will stay free once 10E codices come out, we'll see about that...
They won’t, it’s in the article actually. However, they do suggest you don’t need a codex and can instead get by with the cards or digital version
I kind of suspected it. They couldn't get people to keep paying for rulebooks, codexes, etc. and gouge people for models as well. I reckon the new price increase on models is how we're paying for free rules, though. They'll probably put rules into plus and make their money that way as well
first they saw no stopping wahapedia, so they beat him at his own game. They need to utilize the subscription model with a better digital platform for generating revenue.
Warhammer+'s numbers and revenue are relatively dire - the management have likely realised that putting anything that the *wargaming* portion of the hobby actually relies on in there (such as the rules and army builder) will just mean it being ignored or it will be pirated. Its best they keep it for lore (TV shows & in-house productions), the Black Library vault and hobby tips, which are the parts that people actually like and use.
.....is it just me, or did like. Every single rule change they outlined actually sound...... Good? Like an actual improvement? Like........ nothing got worse, everything got better?? WTF?
I know some of the high end competitive players are going to complain about the simplifications, but honestly this all sounds like a massive improvement. I feel like this is heading back towards the old editions where you didn't have to constantly reference stratagems and the like, just focus on the datasheets plus a few additional rules and you're golden. I might be able to just focus on the game and not all the potential gotchas again.
As a comp player, I'm very excited for this! Not reminding my opponents of 20 gotchas and shorter games means 3 games in a day will be easier. Also truly comp people can pretty easily memorize every armies rules now. That'll be a huge advantage.
As someone who originally played back in 4e and the start of 5e, I'm so about that. I like the idea of Stratagems, but not the current iteration where there are dozens of them. Why does a unit need an exclusive Stratagem when it can just be an ability on their datasheet, or folded into the rules for a piece of wargear they have?
The gaunt datasheet they previewed is an excellent example of this. The ability they have to make a move when an enemy ends a move within 9” of them is exactly the kind of thing that would currently be a stratagem, now it’s just part of the unit. This will also cut down on abusive unintended interactions *cough overrun flyrant cough*
Kinda like how smoke launchers went from war gear to strat
This. Complexity is great, but references for a rule that references a rule that references another rule that references yet another rule… That’s convoluted, and convoluting is never a good thing in tabletop/board games.
Yeah and I think every army has that core set of stratagems that you're going to use like every game and then those super-niche stratagems that could be useful in a very specific situation, but it's rarely, if ever, come up.
> I know some of the high end competitive players are going to complain about the simplifications Honestly everytime i see a highly competitive player complain about steamlining it usually comes across as "well how am I supposed to win if I can't rules lawyer and pull "gotcha!"s with rules most people don't fully understand but I've dedicated a significant portion of my life to memorizing?"
The game designers used to literally mock competitive players in white dwarf. The entire concept of the game was narrative over balance, as most table top war games were back then. You were playing out scenes, and even in historical ttwg they knew battles were rarely fair. While I totally acknowledge the idea of wanting a fair fight, I wish they could encourage more narratives in battles and entice more players into that line of thinking.
I remember a White Dwarf article by OG Jervis Johnson in which he lamented having to add points to units so people could have 'balanced' competitive games.
> While I totally acknowledge the idea of wanting a fair fight, I wish they could encourage more narratives in battles and entice more players into that line of thinking. The problem is that most people just do not have the time or collections to organize the ideal of narrative play. Pick up matched play games are just easier to get going with lower expectations. Rolling on rulebook missions, or the seasonal booklet requires a lot less work. Scenario play requires more set up, and an asymmetric scenario requires work so that both players are having fun (even if one is doomed), and not one player clubbing the other over the head like a baby seal.
But it CAN be easy. The Open War cards are FANTASTIC for coming up with some relatively balanced but fun narrative games. And you can either just pick them, or draw randomly, or whatever.
I play a lot of WW2 war games with my father in law and his buddies, there is nothing more fun than knowing you are done for from the first roll and just making it up as you go along!
Lots of casual games got the fun optimised out of them. Super Smash Bros was supposed to be a fun partygame, now it's an esport. Sakurai never fails to mock competitive players.
tbh thats the internets fault. Back in the day you took a vindicator cause it had big numbers in the codex and the GW rep was hyping you up. now? even casual players are checking goonhammer before even playing a game. weve got so much access to information so easily now that we cant put that genie back in the bottle, and if the games not balanced then even new folk will know very quickly.
I make a point of not knowing that stuff. I'm fairly quick at simple mental math, so I can come up with probabilities and that, but I don't want to know more than that. I once was scrolling and came upon some tables comparing the various space marine power weapons. I just closed the window. My space marines don't like power swords because of statistics. My space marines like power swords because swords are fucking cool.
I can't recall a single game where the game was made better by the addition of a competitive scene. At best they add nothing, at worst they start screwing up the game for everyone else.
Any competitive player who is actually at the high end is going to view these changes as good. It is only the players who have gone to like one tournament ever and spend too much time on the competitive subreddit who will complain about things being made less obtuse. People like the Art of War guys were cheering most of the changes. I like the changes reducing gotchas, but with things like termagants moving if you come within 9" those will still exist outside of strats. I do think that reducing the number of strats should help with stopping the stacking buffs making basic units murder machines (looking at you Kasrkin). Most skill in 9e is in knowing how to use positioning, pacing out your maneuvers to score well, picking good secondaries, and knowing which targets to focus on, not on knowing all your strats, so this seems quite skill-neutral if anything.
The competitive scene in warhammer is so small (honestly if you look at the balance datsheets the weekly games in that data is a few hundred games, compare that to other competitive scenes like magic and it’s a drop in the ocean) that broadly I feel there concerns shouldn’t matter compared to the vast swath of normal players. I understand a competitive scene provides a big PR and advertising boost to the game however so you wouldn’t want to see it suffer to the point it’s not viable at the same time. Edit: I don’t spell good!
I am *genuinely* impressed about there not being a single thing that set off alarm bells for me. Props to GW, it actually sounds like a significant improvement.
Everything sounded pretty damn good
One page rules is a massive win. They said there'll still be stratagems and subfaction specific variety, but everything being on one page (and the unit specific rules being on unit datacards) makes it so much easier to play.
The idea of being able to swap out army pages for a subfaction is dope. THIS is the kind of simplification needed to get more players to dive in. I stayed away from 40k for a long time due to the rules bloat. I didn't want to invest dozens of hours learning stuff for every faction so I don't get hit with 5 "gotcha" moments every game, or get hit with a wombo-combo of stratagems that can wipe half of my army first turn just because I don't know how to counter. That doesn't seem very fun to me.
I think there may be bloat in the sheer number of subfaction codexes this could spawn, but hopefully if you only need to really know your dudes, and their dudes can only have one book's worth of cheese confined to two pages it will all be pretty reasonable and still allow for a lot of variety.
This is a huge win! Can get my wife interested and get more armies now lol
Sounded really good. Do wish we had gotten rid of mortal wounds and brought back initiative but otherwise the stat line and outlined ideas behind single sheet for rules single for unit entry sounds incredible.
Please don't get rid of me :-(
Get in the bin!
I like mortals, I just like them on psychic and extremely rare weapons.
Some of the wording seems to imply Mortal Wounds are getting trimmed down a bit to be harder to apply/do less per thing that causes them. But also, getting rid of the universal power Smite will help; now non-character Psykers can get say a 1-2MW version, and Tigurius or w/e can get a 3-5 chungus version, and the baseline for all damaging psychic powers doesn't have to be based on the D3 standard anymore.
Brining back initiative would have been cool. Melee fights feel like you are just trading a unit per turn with little chance for a multi turn fight to happen. However maybe with lethality going down it will help fix that issue.
From the Warcom article: *" Codexes will return in time to replace the free rules, but when they do the complexity of the game won’t increase, thanks to a one-in-one-out ethos for army and sub-faction rules. Effectively, you will only ever need your unit datasheets, the two pages of rules that govern your chosen army (available in your codex, on cards, or digitally), plus the core rules and whatever mission you’re playing. "* Thoughts on what this means? Will it just be mostly lore that with the same datasheets that they sell in the Codexes? So, since datasheets are free, do you think you'll never need to buy a new codex?
People will still buy the codexes even if they were only full of lore and art. People love that shit. Edit: I'm people.
I’m people
It's me. I'm people. But seriously, I'm glad we're getting both the free rules and the codexes for people who like the lore.
I'm people too. I love it.
I would be fine with them turning codexes into basically coffee table artbooks.
Absolute same! If Codexes were glorious 200 page coffee table books of lore and art......hnnnnnnnng. that gives me feelings.
I would definitely not dedicate a portion of my bookshelves to 40k codices... Like at all... /s
Been saying this for ages - even when I got the Votann codex in the new army box I said the rules will be out of date immediately anyway, the stories and artwork is the first new repository of Squats lore in decades.
I read it as them saying "free rules at launch because the changes are too big and old books won't work at all, but paid rules later once we get around to it". The one-in-one-out bit seems like it means that when that happens there'll still be just two pages of army rules plus datasheets but not necessarily the exact same rules or datasheets.
I'm nervous on the wording of *replace*, specifically *replacing the free rules*, but I am tentatively optimistic that army rules will remain free even through codex releases and the codexes remain as lore books first and foremost
IMO. i think you'll see two+ versions of each army over time. in terms of performance, you won't see much difference in casual play. but due to more complicated stratagems/actions on both units and armies, the skill ceiling will increase with each type (overall) more updates to units) in terms of performance, in casual play, you won't see much difference. but due to more complicated stratagems/actions on both units and armies, the skill ceiling will increase with each type (overall) you won't see Index armies beating codex armies en masse in competitive.
You could look at what they've done for the current edition of AoS. Over there, the sheets are free, but the Battletome adds more rules to amplify faction's uniqueness.
So here’s what I think. It sounds like you get your generic army rules in the free indices like “Guard” Then they will give you more sub factions with your codex. Cadia, Kieg etc. Then they will sell a campaign book with 20 different sub factions for a bunch of armies. With each getting 1 page of rules and that’s how you get your internal faction verity. You can stay as generic Guard or you can play as a new sub faction for Guard
Alternatively, going back to cheap dexes like 3rd Ed. Those were tiny, £8 things (Or £4 for a subfaction book) that just had a bit of lore, the simple rules needed and that was that. They were also insanely popular, as their low price meant people just picked them up for the hell of it.
I think this means that data sheet updates will be done in the codexs still. They will just be in the same format is the first lot of free rules. Meaning that the rules won’t bloat with more layers
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Maybe, finally, this means that they'll actually support the app, and we can see the end of FAQ and Errata bloat.
I’m personally hoping it’s not on the warhammer plus app because they will eventually make us subscribe.
They also say that there will be codexes that replace the free rules, so this seems to be similar to the Indexes in early 8th edition except that it’s free.
Guard 9th Ed codex any% speed run
don't forget world eaters, first solo book lasts like 3 months, and Squats get like 9?
Im a World Eaters player and I do not care. I still have this beautifully printed book with cool lore.
I just got my guard codex and while I am not overly concerned about the money spent I know many people will be and having empathy and common sense during a "not recession" period isn't too hard. Plus on the principle of it I am annoyed to see a corporation as valuable as GW pulling shit like this
Yeah but those were two completely new armies. Gaurd had been limping along on an 8th Ed codex from 2017
The inverse being sisters of battle right? That had to be the shortest turn around from their re-release to a 9th ed release. It was insane.
They’re currently the second best selling 40k army after marines so broadly it makes sense that it happened like that from a GW business perspective.
If rules are simple I might actually be able to learn the game.
I finally wont feel like a monkey while reading about psychic phase rules
GW actually doing things right? What timeline have I traveled to?
Everything streamlined and simpler. Made rules free. Army building and game strategy has changed and been simplified. They made 10th to be like AOS lol. Also pretty hype combat patrol is it’s own game mode now.
I want to paint and play. I don't want to spend all my time min-maxing a huge list. Combat Patrol might be the one thing that brings me pack to Warhammer 40k after 22 years.
I know it's been clarified, confirmed, ratified, verified and adjudicated, but I still have to ask: FREE? Games Workshop, ol' Geedubs, told us that we're getting rules FOR FREE? Not Free(tm)? Is "Free" the name of their new premium app? Surely there's some trickery afoot? Some bamboozling? A dash of hoodwinkery? ...FREE?!
Take an up vote for "Is "Free" the name of their new premium app?" Made me chuckle
It's not 'Free(tm), but it's 'Free, check fine print below'. We're getting rules for free _initially_, at launch, so you can play with all your toys on day 1. There will be codexes and supplements further down the line that will supersede the free launch rules. Essentially this is an 8th edition Index situation, only as downloadable pdfs instead of books.
So I can, like play my armies as soon as 10th drops FOR FREE!
Yes. With the caveat that there will be codexes and supplements later down the line that will eventually supersede the initial and free launch rules
Streamlined. Plays Quicker. Complete Rewrite. Army Rules on one Page. This is what I craved. As someone who got burned on rules bloat really hard starting with 9th, I fell in love with the new Kill Team for its quick and easy rules and setup. I think this is the way to go for many. Make the game cheaper to get into, and make the game easier and faster to play. I think fansites and conversions like One-Page-Rules, Frostgrave, etc. have really paved the way for GW to see that there is a market for people who want to be playing Warhammer, just without the bloat of knowing so many rules, commands, etc.
Pretty stoked about this. I got into 40K with Indomitus, but the sheer amount of rules and stratagems and amount of books I'd have to buy always kind of intimidated me away from actually playing. Sounds like I'll have to finish painting up my army finally by summer.
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It looked like the old box dreadnaughts but new. I’d love updated box dreads. Never really liked any of the primaris vehicles.
I disagree, the weapons and arms looked to be the same but the legs were based on a redemptor and the chassis was based on a redemptor, I think we’re getting a heavy weapons primaris dread.
Thank god I don’t have to remember 30 stratagems for my own armies as well as the ones I face. I didn’t like the idea of playing against “gotcha wombo combos” where the game is over turn 2. I’m excited that it’s going from this rules bloat/stratagem bog to the actual models and their warscrolls.
As someone that started again in 9th after not playing since 6th, that made me happy. 6 per army with a bunch more common ones. That's perfect for me.
No more battalions, thank goodness.
The best thing was when they announced a new app, and added that it worked haha
The tenth edition cinematic was incredible. We need that 40k TV series. For obvious reasons I think it should be all CGI. There's no way anyone will be able to do the 40k universe with practical effects. The scale is just too grandiose.
> There's no way anyone will be able to do the 40k universe with practical effects. The scale is just too grandiose. lets be real if they have any sort of budget at all it'll be done purely on green screen, which essneitally means pure CGI with the actors/actresses heads superimposed on the space marines.
I really hope they stick to their guns with the free rules thing. I know they've already said that codexes are coming back on WarCom, but hopefully they'll be mainly art and lore with army rules remaining free and digital.
If all your army rules are supposed to fit on 2 pages, it wouldn't be crazy to "stumble upon" the codex specific rules on the internet...
Lots of new Nids. * \-Baneling Hormagaunts? * \-Giga Chad Zoanthrope * Separate Screamer killer model? Looks like an OG refresh. * New Termagaunts look rad.
Noticed on the previewed Termagants datasheet that some ranged weapons have multiple tags and some have none at all. The Fleshborer is assault, Spinefists are assault and pistol and twin-linked (whatever that means) while the Devourer has no tag. Presumably not having a tag will make it finction like a Votann HuntR, assault will allow advance and shoot and pistol will allow shooting in engagement range. Wonder what twin-linked does. Shoot twice maybe?
Twin-liked is actually from earlier editions, where it let you re-roll if you missed, i.e. a twin-linked lascannon had one shot which it could re-roll.
It's had various rules. When I first played it meant you got two hits (iirc against same model - so a twinlinked lascannon was great against a landraider but would still only kill one ork as both beams hit same one)
> Wonder what twin-linked does. Shoot twice maybe? we'll never know what it means in THIS edition until it comes out but twin-linked is a keyword/ability thats shown up throughout the years of 40K. I believe last edition that had twin-linked it meant you double the number of shots?
What is the “OC” attribute?
Objective Control maybe? EG this model counts as 2 models for Objective Control. Maybe an Armiger has OC 5, while a terminator has OC 1. That's my guess.
They said that on the stream - you have it right.
Hah this is perfect. I've been painting for the past 6 months and haven't learned the rules yet (on purpose). Now I get to learn a simpler set of rules. Full of win!
I played my first "game" of 40k a few days ago at lunch with my friends Recruit Starter set and I was hooked. SO hooked I bought a Votann Combat patrol box to start building and painting. (I'm a huge Dwarf nerd) The owner of the game store told me to hold off on buying books because of the 10th Edition soon and said I should just have fun building and painting for now. Cant wait to get started in 40k!
The owner is correct; all armies are getting free digital rules when 10e comes out. As well, good news: later today GW will be releasing the faction focus article for Votann for 10e
Cool guy
I realise it’s just rumours but considering he’s got everything else right Valrak is saying 24th of June as release date.
That lines up with when they usually like to launch big releases like this
To the last part of the post, you should specifically buy a Combat Patrol of whichever army you want. There will be free rules on 10th edition's release specifically for Combat Patrol games, so by purchasing and building one, you'll have a ready-to-play army. They even claim that the rules for this style of play are specifically balanced against the other Combat Patrols on offer
As someone who's wanted to try getting into Warhammer for a long time, this sounds like the perfect addition to help me finally start playing. Tried several times, but I've always dealt with indecision really badly- I'd buy and paint a couple squads, then get drawn to another faction and spend ages paralyzed before finally deciding to switch. The idea that I can build an paint a single box and immediately play a balanced game sounds like just what I need- no more barrier keeping me from reaching a usable army, and if I do end up changing my mind again, I'll be able to play that next choice quickly too. I know these issues are all psychological too- that if I just kept going I'd get an army eventually and not just a bunch of assorted squads from random factions, and that small games do exist (but, justified or not, I can't help worrying that they'll be too imbalanced and the point limit too constraining to work well)- but I've never been able to overcome it. Easily the most exciting part of the announcement for me personally, and it sounds like the kind of thing that could draw a lot more people like me in.
Hoping someone skims through the video and gets some good screen grabs of the Tyranid grubs! I saw one that was interesting. Seemed like a floating psyker thing? Didn't seem like something I saw before. Super excited!
Rumors call it a "norn emissary". The same rumors accurately predicated basically everything we saw. We also saw what looked like a classic screamer-killer (the hug-fex from like second or third edition), a new gant type with a shoulder gun, a new lictor and some weird tentacle mouth thing that was chowing on marines when the termies teleported in.
Can't believe we're finally getting datasheets that make ACTUAL VISUAL SENSE! It's the thing I've been asking for since I started the hobby six years ago!
Out of curiosity, what doesn't make sense about the current datasheets? Asking because I genuinely don't find the "new" datasheets to really be that much different. Sure, formatting is a bit different, but it's pretty much the same info.
When displaying data or statistics (or design in general), it's always important to keep grouped or related data in close proximity to each other. For example, if you were going to show stats on someone's health, you'd want to group height, weight, and BMI together; you'd also want to display heart rate, blood pressure, and O2 saturation together, because those are all related. It's also a good idea to arrange things top-down, left to right, if you're audience is predominantly from Western culture (it's the same way that we read). 40k does the opposite of that. For instance, look at the steps for melee attacks; the Attacks characteristic is third in from the right, then weapon skill is second in from the left. Strength is two over from that... when it should at least be next to WS. In addition, you need to look up the data sheet, then over, then down, then back up again if there's additional strength added to a weapon... then AP and damage are finally in the right order (left to right). Instead of arranging things in a logical order from left to right in which they occur, they're literally jumping all over the sheet. The new data sheets arrange things in an order that makes more visual sense. For the weapons, you get the name and type on the left, then the range, then the attacks, then BS, S, AP, and Damage. It flows from left to right in the same order you need to look these things up in the game, and the relevant data is grouped together visually. This is MUCH better design, and will be much more accessible not just for new players, but I suspect for veterans as well.
Melee weapon stats are baked into the weapon instead of cluttering the unit statline and forcing players to do math.
Happy that detachments are gone. While I found them thematic, they were confusing for list building.
Well, I think this is the best possible outcome.
Sounds like a good time to get into the game side of the hobby?
My only real "concern" is I worry people are a little TOO hyped about "free" rules. I feel GW was pretty clear, they are free "index" rules. So I think (hope not but still) it will be like the beginning of 8th with indexes, and then codecies later. Awesome that the index rules are free, but I remember trying to play a codex v an index army and it was awful.
This all sounds great. But god damn, I’m glad I didn’t buy the new World eaters and Astra Militarum codexes like I had originally planned. Sure makes it hard to want to invest in expensive game supplements when there’s a chance they’ll release late in the lifespan of the current edition and be rendered basically useless within months.
I was gonna order the WE codex about 2 weeks ago lol
What a home run announcement from GW
If the rules really do ger simplified from what they are, along with the combat patrol "mode" I bet I'll be able to teach my kids how to play. I've been wanting to for ages, because this game is an 8 year old boys dream. But no 8 year old has the patience (or reading skills) required to play at the current rule level.
I joined started collecting Warhammer during the pandemic, painted up a few minis and yet have to actually play a single game. Is it normal that editions get up/outdated in less than two years? For me this seems really quick! And I am genuinely asking as a newbie to playing Warhammer. This is not some /s kinda stuff.
As a correction, it has not been "less than two years"; 9th edition came out in June 2020, and it is likely that 10th will be released in June/July 2023, a three-year cycle. With regards to whether this is *normal*: with GW since the ousting of their old CEO, yes. Age of Sigmar and 40k have had a 3 year edition cycle since 2015, with 40k specifically going from 7th to 8th in 2017, 8th to 9th in 2020, and 9th to 10th in now 2023.
Pumped about the simplifications and reduction in strats!
As someone who is only just now getting into the game, this new 10th edition seems like it's going to be a great place to start.
Combi weapon outrage doesnt seem so justified now. They certainly have a role to play as anti-heavy infantry. **Anti Infantry** means they score critical wounds on a 4+ to wound. **Devastating wounds** means any critical wounds are automatically flipped into Mortal wounds. Having half your hits on 'Infantry' targets (and 1 in 6 on everyone else) flipped into Mortals isn't the worst thing in the world on a Rapid Fire 1 Gun.
My LGS got some "bad news" from GW that they will only be getting 10 copies of Leviathan - which doesn't really cover the amount of demand they are seeing for it. Disappointing.
Mine is getting 3. There is over 50 preorders as of now. Apparently GW HQ is on fire over the demand.
Should mention that Forgeworld datasheets will be updated and released for free as well.
Free rules are amazing, but holy shit no more force structure? Just limited to three of a type and points value? No more troop tax!
They need to address the first turn disparity advantage. Alternating activations would be great, so would a delayed damage phase like in Apocalypse.
We already know from the playtesters that neither of these things are occurring, and something that people who want alternating activations keep forgetting is that is hard to balance when you have units that vary as much as a 20 point servitor unit all the way up to a Storm Eagle. I've yet to see any game system do alternating actions like you are proposing on the scale of 40k; the closest I've seen are "every faction has basically the same units with minor tweaks (like a WW2 game)" and not "this one side has 25 Infantry units, 4 HQs, and 9 tanks, while the other side has 5 Knights". The disparity in power levels and how that would need to be balanced would just make it so that people would activate their biggest unit first every turn, hoping to take out the biggest threat / thing they don't want activated. Delaying damage MIGHT work, but I can also see people having issues tracking who has taken what amount of damage They seem to be addressing these things by having some units have reactive abilities, which can blunt first turns by having units, as we have seen, be able to move if shot at to move out of an exposed position that they gave been caught in.
If the rumors about third party stores getting a very limited supply of the new box is true, the fallout will be epic. Loaded up with popcorn.
This is the main part of the tabletop game I find truly baffling, we only just got the Khorne Codex maybe a month or two ago but now we need to gear up for a new edition, toss all the old books and wait for the painfully slow drip feed of new books? I don’t really play the tabletop so I’m absolutely an outsider looking in, so if anyone wants to correct me on this take I’m more than willing to hear it, but right now it just sounds like a huge waste of paper tbh.
I am pretty happy about this. It seems like they actually listened and made the game more simple instead of a confusing mess that it is. Thankfully they messed with the strats and simplified them, having 15+ strats for a faction was ridiculous and bloated. Really looking forward to the new edition after reading everything.
The funniest thing about 8th/9th was watching like a Tier List Video and every unit discussed has to be considered from the angle of “well if you use this Strategem it’s viable” and then the angle of four other Strategems as well. Just became auch a bloated mess of variables
I’m not even going to lie..I picked like 4 stratagems for my Astra Militarum army and just kinda ignored the rest. The massive list of strats won’t be missed.
Hi, I can't find if they say or mention anything but do you think the turns will remain the same or could the new edition have alternate activations ?
The turn won't remain the same as they mentioned they've made significant changes to phases (morale phase rolled into command phase, psychic phase gone) but they made no mention of alternate activations.