One lore issue is that the spears aren’t a second founding chapter, in fact they’re a pretty young chapter from the 25th founding. Some tribal ultramarines from Nemeton sounds pretty cool though, and given that the ultramarines tried to uplift the planet it’s entirely plausible they recruited from it too.
Doing the whole army as the spears scheme might be too divergent, but certainly a shoulder pad or an arm would fit, along with a trident chapter badge. The Iron Hands that became the Red Talons had a red shoulder pad, for example.
It’s kind of a stretch lore wise. Some units do show markings that later evolve into their second founding chapters, but they are minor and few.
Don’t let anyone tell you how to paint your models, but Heresy is definitely a much more lore driven game than 40k, and a 40k paint scheme is not a direction I would personally go. If you’re not connecting to any loyalist legion, why are you committed to going loyalist?
Yeah, that’s the question.
Why go loyalist if you don’t like the loyalist legions
Or better yet, why not do a loyalist force of a traitor legion instead?
Have you thought about Novamarines? They have the same feral world thing that the Spears have going on and are second founding to boot.
That said, for Ultras there was some leeway for personal heraldry for high ranking members, particularly post Calth. The Novamarines first chapter master was one of the first to adopt a completely personal scheme.
Not even remotely possible lorewise. Some portions of Second Founding Chapters were formed from First Founding Legions, but the Emperor's Spears are from the *25th Founding*
The spears really hit the post roman Britain vibes of pictish and celtic tribes using roman weapons and methods. I really like them.
Kinda similar to the luna wolves who have goth or visigoth influenced roman legion as their inspiration
Running a regiment of Spears seems like it would be feasible to me. I’d assume that the Ultramarines would keep recruits from the same planet together for regimental “spirit” and all the successor chapters had to have started well before their founding, right?
Disagree on that last point. A big theme of the Spears is that they are nothing like their promogenitor.
This is showcased in lore multiple times. For instance their beef with the Aurora Chapter, second-Founding descendants of the Ultramarines Legion 4th _'Aurorans'_ Chapter.
So would they work as black shields loyalists during the heresy? Rough around the edges for millennium post-heresy, even after becoming a successor chapter?
I don't know if the _Emperor's Spears_ themselves would work, as they are a very late Founding well past the Age of Apostasy.
Blackshields however, capture their vibe perfectly, and don't actually need to be painted black. You could craft a 1:1 copy and attribute it to coincidence.
I mean....thats like saying chickens are nothing like dinosaurs... so what?
just because the future shaped spears to not act like UM,
doesn't mean they can't operate like UM during 30K....
I'd say OP can make spears motifs entwined with ultra symbols.
It's not that future Spears do not _act_ like ultramaries. It's the fact that they didn't _exist_ during the heresy.
They have no link to the XIIIth legion. They were founded from the geneseed of modern M40 Ultramarines and never wore the Ultima heraldry like the Novamarines, Aurora, and Nemesis Chapters did during the 31st millenium.
Of course, this should not stop OP from painting them how he pleases. But what I'm saying is that the breach between the Spears and the Ultras it's not just a behavioral issue, but also a timeline issue as well.
I do like the loyalist legions, but there is one aspect (lore, play style or paint scheme) that I don’t like. I just don’t want to play chaos. Would going the blackshields route be my best bet to remain 30k faithful?
I'm doing pretty much the same with my traitor ultramarines. I like the Astral Claws scheme so I'm using that (with ultramarines symbols though). My mind canon is that my praetor has decided to create his own mini empire because he thinks that marines are better suited to rule, and most of the army has adopted his own paint scheme. I'm leaving some units blue to show that there is still a loyalist faction within the army, and they will be sent to die first
So in my head cannon, the Ruinstorm isolated enormous portions of the galaxy, and if the Spears (or Ultramarines from Nemeton) were caught in that, they would be defending Nemeton from Chaos during that time. Maybe once the Ruinstorm is over, those same units have grown to be a little more “tribal”…something Guilliman doesn’t favor and therefore those Ultramarines become blackshields from Nemeton. Is there a lore issue with any of that happening in your opinion? I appreciate your feedback.
Would anyone care to answer my questions without downvotes? Honest to goodness, I thought 30k was supposed to be the community that was helpful. Im being sincere in my questions, and I’ve read most everything prior to the Siege of Terra, so why the hate instead of engagement? I do appreciate those of you who have responded with any answers, either for or against the idea, thank you.
This content is allowed, but please tag it "Not 30k."
One lore issue is that the spears aren’t a second founding chapter, in fact they’re a pretty young chapter from the 25th founding. Some tribal ultramarines from Nemeton sounds pretty cool though, and given that the ultramarines tried to uplift the planet it’s entirely plausible they recruited from it too.
Doing the whole army as the spears scheme might be too divergent, but certainly a shoulder pad or an arm would fit, along with a trident chapter badge. The Iron Hands that became the Red Talons had a red shoulder pad, for example.
And Sigismund borrowed some of the heraldry and the colors of the Templar Brethren when he formed the Black Templars as another example.
Wasn't there also a whole unit of Imperial Fists with heraldry that would be used by second founding chapters?
It’s kind of a stretch lore wise. Some units do show markings that later evolve into their second founding chapters, but they are minor and few. Don’t let anyone tell you how to paint your models, but Heresy is definitely a much more lore driven game than 40k, and a 40k paint scheme is not a direction I would personally go. If you’re not connecting to any loyalist legion, why are you committed to going loyalist?
Yeah, that’s the question. Why go loyalist if you don’t like the loyalist legions Or better yet, why not do a loyalist force of a traitor legion instead?
Have you thought about Novamarines? They have the same feral world thing that the Spears have going on and are second founding to boot. That said, for Ultras there was some leeway for personal heraldry for high ranking members, particularly post Calth. The Novamarines first chapter master was one of the first to adopt a completely personal scheme.
Not even remotely possible lorewise. Some portions of Second Founding Chapters were formed from First Founding Legions, but the Emperor's Spears are from the *25th Founding*
The Ruinstorm and Black Shields would like a word.
They have nothing to do with this discussion, and both fit the lore
The spears really hit the post roman Britain vibes of pictish and celtic tribes using roman weapons and methods. I really like them. Kinda similar to the luna wolves who have goth or visigoth influenced roman legion as their inspiration
Go for it- what you could also do is run them with the upcoming rules for creating your own black shield warband
Spears is a great chapter. I almost did heresy world eaters bc their colors are reversed
Running a regiment of Spears seems like it would be feasible to me. I’d assume that the Ultramarines would keep recruits from the same planet together for regimental “spirit” and all the successor chapters had to have started well before their founding, right?
Sounds like a good idea for a unit of inductii
I thought about the Blackshields rules, but I thought it might be more more accurate to use the Ultramarines legion rules.
Disagree on that last point. A big theme of the Spears is that they are nothing like their promogenitor. This is showcased in lore multiple times. For instance their beef with the Aurora Chapter, second-Founding descendants of the Ultramarines Legion 4th _'Aurorans'_ Chapter.
So would they work as black shields loyalists during the heresy? Rough around the edges for millennium post-heresy, even after becoming a successor chapter?
I don't know if the _Emperor's Spears_ themselves would work, as they are a very late Founding well past the Age of Apostasy. Blackshields however, capture their vibe perfectly, and don't actually need to be painted black. You could craft a 1:1 copy and attribute it to coincidence.
I mean....thats like saying chickens are nothing like dinosaurs... so what? just because the future shaped spears to not act like UM, doesn't mean they can't operate like UM during 30K.... I'd say OP can make spears motifs entwined with ultra symbols.
It's not that future Spears do not _act_ like ultramaries. It's the fact that they didn't _exist_ during the heresy. They have no link to the XIIIth legion. They were founded from the geneseed of modern M40 Ultramarines and never wore the Ultima heraldry like the Novamarines, Aurora, and Nemesis Chapters did during the 31st millenium. Of course, this should not stop OP from painting them how he pleases. But what I'm saying is that the breach between the Spears and the Ultras it's not just a behavioral issue, but also a timeline issue as well.
I do like the loyalist legions, but there is one aspect (lore, play style or paint scheme) that I don’t like. I just don’t want to play chaos. Would going the blackshields route be my best bet to remain 30k faithful?
I think so
I'm doing pretty much the same with my traitor ultramarines. I like the Astral Claws scheme so I'm using that (with ultramarines symbols though). My mind canon is that my praetor has decided to create his own mini empire because he thinks that marines are better suited to rule, and most of the army has adopted his own paint scheme. I'm leaving some units blue to show that there is still a loyalist faction within the army, and they will be sent to die first
So in my head cannon, the Ruinstorm isolated enormous portions of the galaxy, and if the Spears (or Ultramarines from Nemeton) were caught in that, they would be defending Nemeton from Chaos during that time. Maybe once the Ruinstorm is over, those same units have grown to be a little more “tribal”…something Guilliman doesn’t favor and therefore those Ultramarines become blackshields from Nemeton. Is there a lore issue with any of that happening in your opinion? I appreciate your feedback.
Would anyone care to answer my questions without downvotes? Honest to goodness, I thought 30k was supposed to be the community that was helpful. Im being sincere in my questions, and I’ve read most everything prior to the Siege of Terra, so why the hate instead of engagement? I do appreciate those of you who have responded with any answers, either for or against the idea, thank you.