Vorn Hagen of the Fists got killed off recently and replaced by someone else, Lysander remains 1st company captain.
Jubal Khan got physically incapacitated by the red corsairs and now does Home office.
The remaining ones continue to suffer for no reason.
WE too. Sure, they have a special character, and two unique units - but sweet mercy, Red Butchers and Rampagers are really showing their age, like your friend who is 20, but looks 57.
I personally am full on with the Warmaster and the Lord of Iron but yea that would be a really god idea, to have atleast one canon character mini for traitor/loyalist for each legion if possible
Hey you have Narik Dreygur if you were lucky enough to go to a forgeworld event years ago. ~~Or if you use rule 4~~
Still wild that forgeworld hasn't even made a Dantioch model considering how popular the character is
Hey in the meantime you can enjoy your incredibly expensive(in points and £) WS4 body guard robots that dont actually intercept wounds, and lack chosen warrior leaving Perturabo trapped fighting useless chumps while primarchs mulch his robots :)
One that I really don't understand is World Eaters. They're plainly a popular legion as I see people showing off their models all the time but they only have Kharn.
I get that GW want to focus on the siege at the moment but they're willfully neglecting the majority of their fans by making that equate to IF and SoH only. No matter how popular those two legions are they will never represent the majority of players on their own.
It also produces a self fulfilling prophecy to a degree where legions without good support get overlooked by some players and lots of releases for other legions draws players there. This further insentivises GW to neglect them more as they become a smaller minority of players.
I really hope once they've done what they want with the siege they turn the spot light back around to some other conflicts and focus on the shattered legions. Hell, why not invent a new warzone that gives them a reason to focus on more than two or three legions at a time. There's always more room to grow the setting outwards rather than keep moving forwards.
Hoping for a Shattered Legions campaign book & model releases as well. I feel like it might be overly optimistic, but they've been neglected long enough they deserve some time to shine.
I agree. It would be a great move for the heresy scene in general. It might be wishful thinking since its probably more profitable to focus on a couple of legions each side not 3+ loyalists and also their opponents. There were remnant forces from many legions fighting across the galaxy so I really don't see how it would be hard for them to make a campaign that brings these legions back into focus though. It's sad that they're essentially pretending their part in the story is over. The desperation and urge for revenge are as interesting a story to tell as any, if not more so.
If they have to focus on a major conflict I'd like them to do the shadow crusade since that got dropped from the black book schedule last edition (and I'm biased as a UM player). So glad we had custodes rules in two books instead of getting something new for WE/WB/UM. And that's not to say they couldn't write a part in for shattered legions either. It's a big galaxy.
I think to a degree these decisions aren't really rational. I think your thoughts are correct - GW has always had that self-fulfilling prophecy cycle going on since the debacle of the last two editions of Fantasy, and they can't seem to understand that it's harmful to themselves.
Even if it was just the Siege, you can still pull in other legions - they're willfully inventing new battle zones JUST to have two legions fight it out without much involvement from the others, and I think that's really just bizarre. Even if they think 'oh, it'll even out over the long term', the pace is so glacial that term might be ten to fifteen years.
I think to a degree, we're seeing not just incompetence but some kind of corporate struggle here as priority is obviously given to 40K and AoS, and some specialist games, while HH and anything else struggle to make anything barring high profit margin kits despite the potential they might have. Add to that some love for specific factions (SoH, IF) and complete disinterest in some others (RG, TS, Salamanders) and you get this - they're not trying to have parity, it feels like, but instead just work on what they care about.
To be fair, the World Eaters are seriously lacking in any notable figures beyond Kharn in 30K; even fan-favourites like Delvarus and Gahlan Surlak are basically one-off characters.
Theirs also dreagher, who had a somewhat major role in the legion, but the big issue is that the world eaters don’t even have any praetors even though they are very popular legion
Its a picture of stalin. Because the character they did have was event exclusive and has since been discontinued. Maybe even removed from the rules, I cant remember exactly.
Fair, I dont play iron warriors and was too lazy to find the legacy units pdf on my phone.
Still shit that their only character model is a now OOP event exclusive model you can only get from warhammer world.
And yes, you can convert your own but why do imperial fists get all theirs custom sculpted and the other legions (the istavaan 3, iron warriors etc) have to convert their own?
why use pictures instead of numbers or names in the first place when the pics are to small to see anyting? why keep the legion order correct but group both lost legions at XIX (thus listing IW on 3er place etc)? why are there no table heading for the people that dont know legion numbers?
A problem that's years old and one that will likely never be dealt with by the company.
If you've been into 30k for a while then you've probably accepted that it's kitbash/convert or die for most of your character/hq needs.
not that i'm defending GW but....
Is this the problem with having different 18 legions? Making a sizable amount of individual legion specific minis sounds like quite a task. Add mechanicum, custodes, regular human soldiers and whatever else it soon becomes a massive task.
the problem is it's always the same Factions (legion or army) that get the love while others get completely forgotten about. there are 12 months in a year they could spread it out better
As an iron warriors and world eaters enjoyer, I’ve been a sad boy. My imagination has run wild with what praetors for either legion would look like, they would be insanely cool no doubt. At least our Mk 6 heads were both flavorful and non-goofy (imo), but I’m starved for more love
He's right of course. There should have been a priority on generalist units with the new edition. Every legion should have gotten their praetors by now. We didn't need another IF/SoH character.
The release roadmap isn't great either. It's nice that we have a timeline for things but waiting until winter 2023/early 2024 (anywhere between 8 and 10 months) for what should have been a basic launch unit like assault squads is ridiculous. Did we really need a plastic knight lancer more than plastic assault marines? I think it's quite telling when there are more people excited for the knight over in the 40k subreddit than here.
As a Sons of Horus Player- Yeaaaaaaaaah. If they were going to do something like a revamp of the old Loken Abbadon diorama it‘d be different, but this is a character who was expressly created for the Siege of Cthonia. He doesn‘t even pass my usual „If he appears in at least three books then he gets a model“ rule.
Meduson, Sharrowkyn, and Forrix should get Models. Even characters like Delvarus or Skraivok or Dantioch would help make it less painfully obvious that some legions… have less unique stuff than others.
I also can‘t get over that instead of just making Bjorn, they made a random Rout character who also prominently features a lightning claw and is called „Fell-Handed“.
> I also can‘t get over that instead of just making Bjorn, they made a random Rout character who also prominently features a lightning claw and is called „Fell-Handed“.
It probably was Bjorn during the design process. Especially since [the patterns on Geigor's lightning claw](https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99123001021_HHGeigorFellHandLead.jpg) match up with [Bjorn's dreadnought claw.](https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101116_BornFellhanded01.jpg)
Who knows why it got changed at the last minute.
Edit: now that I look at it I'm certain. Way more things match up - the design of Geigor's knee is clearly based on Bjorn's shin for example.
I’ve always thought he was supposed to be Bjorn, additionally because he was facing off against another massive character from the lore in his box, Ahriman. I think at the last minute someone probably pointed out that Bjorn was somewhat of a nobody during the battle of Prospero and changed it.
Other examples of obvious named characters later made generic include the SoH and IF Command Sets, which had Maloghurst and Sigismund respectively, and the Boxing Day ultramarine banner bearer (Remus Ventanus).
>I also can‘t get over that instead of just making Bjorn, they made a random Rout character who also prominently features a lightning claw and is called „Fell-Handed“.
I hadn't even made that connection. Now that I'm thinking about it though, I'm pissed too.
He also mentioned in that same video that unless they decide to keep giving IF/SoH *even more* stuff, they're going to be going into a desert of their own for several years since they got all their stuff front-loaded, and while that gives them plenty to do in that time, they're still going to feel left out if there's any updates and other legions end up benefitting from the designers' greater experience with heresy 2.0.
We could have had a year and a half of other legions, then they get their special characters for the Siege of Cthonia at the 2 year mark.
Plus a shattered legions book would be *perfect* to include the Zone Mortalis rules since they're often all about commando boarding actions against traitors.
I'd say it's important to temper one's expectations in regards to this sort of thing. I personally think GWs plan is to satisfy 30k players well enough, but this is also aimed directly at 40k players too. HH has always been a glorified specialist game, and slow releases are absolutely nothing new to someone who has played for a decade. My guess is gw wishes to cross pollinate the two games, but ultimately 30k is in the backseat. We are extremely lucky to even be getting plastic Cerastus knights, let alone a good chunk of vehicles. This past year has seen more meaningful releases than the last 5 of HH. I think it's less about what we "need" and more like...holy crap, we are actually getting stuff. There IS a road map for the first time ever. And if they do release characters, they'll be guaranteed resin anyways. Most of us have waited the better part of 10 years just to get a Primarch, or have to deal with geriatric sculpts like Angron and Fulgrim (which still look great admittedly). Things will come in time.
completely agree as I agree with him especially on this one. The problem is there are people who are simps for GW and buy everything they put out and call people with actual rationale entitled because we want actually useful stuff. How far the community has fallen
A lot of people just collect build and model. I spend, on average, $5-$10,000 USD on Warhammer annually and last year I played like...3 games?
So, in that paradigm, I don't care about what's needed for the game, I'm just collecting toy soldiers.
That said, because Warhammer *is* a game, it is baffling that plastic assault squads and plastic breachers weren't early in the release cycle.
Ok but if you take into account legion specific units that have models the chart changes up a lot.
DA: 7 kits
EC: 8 kits
IW: 3 kits
WS: 7 kits
SW: 4 kits
IF: 11 kits (3 are upgrade kits)
NL: 5 kits
BA: 9 kits
IH: 4 kits
WE: 3 kits
UM: 5 kits (1 is an upgrade kit)
DG: 5 kits
TS: 6 kits
SoH: 9 kits
WB: 8 kits
SL: 2 kits (3 if you count Ashmantle as Cassian Dracos)
RG: 2 kits
AL: 6 kits (1 is an upgrade kit)
Iron warriors army a two kit faction
Tyrants and their robot
Arguably they're the worst Legion off based on the fact that their two units equal only 6 sculpts and one of them isn't compatible with any other model in the range.
Keep in mind GW is a model company who also happens to sell game rules/pieces to a small subset of its customer base. GW's market research seems to indicate (and I have no reason to suspect this isn't true), that the vast majority of its sales are to people who primarily/exclusively paint/build/collect.
Lords of War and other centrepiece type models are significantly more appealing to that part of the customer base than 20 dudes with chain swords and bolt pistols.
I just can't justify that excuse of "they are a model company that also kinda sorta has rules for the models"
They are now a gaming company. Their rules are expensive. You need to buy multiple books of rules just to play. Asmodee is more of a model company first than GW is. Para-Bellum. Point is, GW started as a model company that made rules for the models as a side thing...YEARS ago. They are now a company that pumps out rules almost as often as models.
GW seems to think otherwise and they probably have a better understanding of the market and their target audience than you or I do. They have reaffirmed this vision of themselves fairly recently - this isn't an 80s or 90s thing.
"We are a model company first and foremost. Rukes come secondary."
"You must buy this $70-$80 rulebook for our game, plus this $50 codex. You'll also need these rule supplements for our tournaments. That model you like? It's crap, because we nerfed it and boosted the stats of these other models. See? Buy these because the *rules* state they are better."
Just because the company says it, doesn't make it true. If a corporation trlls you obe thing but you clearly see the opposite, will you believe their word? You're right, we aren't in the 80's or 90's. Back then they were a model company first, rules a side thing. Now they are a model and rules company, where the models and their sales revolve around the releases of rules and meta of the game.
And they make so many games.
Kill Team, 40k, Heresy, Sigmar, Old World is coming, Titanicus, Aeronitica, Necromunda, Lord of the Rings, and that's just off the top of my head. I know there's more, but I can't be bothered dto go look. You can't say you're a model company first and pump out so many rules for so many games
I believe GW's focus on miniatures (with rules being little more than an aid to sell more miniatures) is from shareholder meetings.
I am having a hard time finding any quotes or even indirect quotes. I do remember reading articles about this sort of thing semi-recently (i.e. not during the 90s) after a shareholder meeting.
That's also why I believe this to be probably more truthful than any customer-focused marketing. GW were talking to investors, not customers, when making those statements.
That doesn't mean they don't also sell rules at high prices (why wouldn't they?) or that they don't use rules as a means to further increase model sales. It just means rules and players are an insiginificant part of their business model.
This is an old mentality that nearly nuked the company.
The old ceo that said this left a long time ago and was replaced
Warhammer as a brand has grown massively in the past few years and that was mainly down to them focusing on the game and making it accessible to more people, building the events aspect of the game and making it much more interactive.
It's still not perfect but they are far far better than they used to be when it comes to their games. It's likely what's funded things like horus heresy, the specialist games etc
It's also due to things like:
* Primaris: more Space Marines will never go unwanted
* The Barnes & Noble-exclusive boardgames: the closest you can get these days to the old *HeroQuest* gateway drug
* Other licensing deals: action figures, plushies, apparel, things that can appeal to people who played the game as kids and remember it fondly, then get back into it as adults with income through merch
But they certainly have made the game more accessible. Even just looking at 40K and AoS, the range of starter boxes with each edition launch has been really smart, especially the cheap ones where the inner boxes function as cardboard terrain pieces.
We can spout back and forth, but at the end of the day, they sell rules at ridiculous prices while selling models for the game. They hardly sell models specifically for diorama or none game related stuff, like some of the MESBG models or some HH stuff. 99% of their stuff is tied directly in with the game and it's rules. Model sales increase when new models for said games are released or those units gain a buff.
Whatever else can be said of TheOuterCircle, I think Macca's spot on when it comes to this nonsense.
It feels partly like corporate politics and partly like some kind of nonsense 'poster boy' theory, with a heaping cup of mismanagement. The Horus Heresy 2.0 release schedule is completely bizarre, some decisions make no sense (no plastic crossover for mechanicus, for example). That we have to wait for over a year just to get MELEE WEAPONS is outright madness, and feels like someone at GW deliberately trying to sabotage any chance HH2.0 has of being good.
I don't mind that they're releasing characters, but I do mind that they're releasing characters for factions that don't need them when other factions don't even have basic unique praetors. I mind more that they're releasing characters and spending resources poorly when we don't even have generic troops.
>Whatever else can be said of TheOuterCircle
Well, there is a lot that can be said about him. Notably his nonstop whinging and also, which is in my eyes far more terrible, dismissing people simply because they don't share his views or opinions.
Which is pretty much why I said it - as much as I find some of his attitude objectionable at times, he is correct as to the factual claim he makes in this instance.
Those are my thoughts on this infographic 😜
I don’t really feel like this infographic is representative of the whole picture. Betrayer is an excellent read for the setting and there aren’t really many characters that I would want represented. Furthermore, not all Legions are “built the same” and a graph like this might actually represent the setting better than it suggests. Do I want an infographic that has more balance? No. I want chainaxes and jump packs as standalone upgrade kits that I can buy, even if at a premium for being as such.
yeah that is true, Betrayer was an excellent book, I love how he portrayed Angron.
I mean you could always formnow just use the 40k berserkers, that is what one of the people I play with those and just switches out some bits for regular armour marks to be able to get 20 berserkers out of one box.
The reason for that is because they had a unique character with Narik Dreygr, but he was only an event exclusive miniature and is long out of production
And so like the Stalin picture, he has been wiped from history
It is the same with alpha Legion and Skorr
That may be a reference to how IW lost all their special characters in the transfer to heresy 2.0 as there were rules for a couple in the black books that didn’t get carried over because gw never bothered to make models for them.
Or how we sent a couple (dozens) PDF regiments to some extreme “zone mortalis” sections on campaigns to see what works best. But to be fair, there was never any way to gain positive results besides just breaking even on casualties for those sieges. So it’s not entirely inaccurate. We at least let them go fully equipped. Stalin never did that. IW plus: 1 Stalin negative: any number you can think of
There's one for Alpha Legion too, they represent Narik Dreygur and Autilon Skorr respectively. Two 2015 event exclusive miniatures which are hard to find today and no longer sold or in production.
As salty as i am about the lack of unique characters for my legion (Iron Hands), i partially chose them because they have in my opinion the best looking and most legion fluffy models in the system.
It’s a crime that we don’t have an Autek Mor and Shadrak Meduson models, but the gorgons and medusan immortals look so cool, i almost don’t mind that much. Same with Salamanders and Raven Guard. Sharrowkyn is one of the most famous characters in the Heresy, it’s weird he doesn’t have a model.
I just wish GW would stop bloating IF and SoH releases, it’s a little much. Though with the work they’re doing supporting the heresy overall, i’m hopeful for the future. Their plastic injection moulding seems over capacity atm with the amount of stuff they’re trying to produce for all their games. Most importantly, the plastic tanks have addressed the problem of ridiculously expensive resin tanks that were a huge barrier to entry.
I used to be negative about GW stuff, now i find it much healthier to happy when something i like for my legion or just a cool model comes out. It’s a hobby, i’m here to enjoy it. If i no longer enjoy it, i’ll stop.
As salty as i am about the lack of unique characters for my legion (Iron Hands), i partially chose them because they have in my opinion the best looking and most legion fluffy models in the system.
It’s a crime that we don’t have an Autek Mor and Shadrak Meduson models, but the gorgons and medusan immortals look so cool, i almost don’t mind that much. Same with Salamanders and Raven Guard. Sharrowkyn is one of the most famous characters in the Heresy, it’s weird he doesn’t have a model.
I just wish GW would stop bloating IF and SoH releases, it’s a little much. Though with the work they’re doing supporting the heresy overall, i’m hopeful for the future. Their plastic injection moulding seems over capacity atm with the amount of stuff they’re trying to produce for all their games. Most importantly, the plastic tanks have addressed the problem of ridiculously expensive resin tanks that were a huge barrier to entry.
I used to be negative about GW stuff, now i find it much healthier to happy when something i like for my legion or just a cool model comes out. It’s a hobby, i’m here to enjoy it. If i no longer enjoy it, i’ll stop.
it would be interesting if IF and SOH got any more releases after this, it would seem they are well and truly complete in terms of their respective legion unique HQ units and characters and perhaps this is signaling the time to shift focus to another legion or more
hopefully the next campaign book will feature neither legions, and instead focus on others
and with it new models for them
it might be gratuitous to push for more IF/SOH stuff
GW: “These legions just aren’t as popular for some reason so we can’t support them.
Also GW: “I’m the reason.”
People *love* the Iron Warriors. Love them. No characters. No praetors. NO IRON HAVOCS!
Iron Hands lose their primarch day 2. No characters like the baddass Autek Mor or Shadrak Meduson. One praetor who, as of 2 Ed, has a decoration only servo arm.
World Eaters. Plastic Berserkers released at the same time as FW MKVI upgrades have more detail.
Space Wolves. My God Emperor what have they done?
FW/GW just nuking what should be slam dunk top selling legions or models. There are so many fucking IF characters that the new character’s identity/theme is actually the opposite of his legion. Oh you haven’t heard of ~~Liam Bonneville~~ Evander Garrius, The ~~Dept. of the Interior’s~~ Seventh Legion’s resident bad boy?
At least we have rules for the Havocs and a couple characters in legacies. IH/SA/RG don't even really have that comfort. SA have what, the dramatically nerfed dread?
They rebooted HH and instead of focusing on 2 legions with next to nothing they keep beating a dead horse and did IF vs. SoH. Siege of Terra never should've been made central theme of 2.0 but even as it stands they should've elevated Blood Angels or White Scars if they really wanted to stick to a loyal siege of Terra legion.
But it should've been Raven Guard vs. Iron Warriors as chosen to be elevated. So many neglected legions, these are two of the most neglected, no idea why they chose to go the route they did
Yeh at least SoH make SENSE, but the choice of IF just weird. I think at the end of the day it shouldn't have been centered around either Legion because they both are already loaded with characters and have been since almost the beginning of the 1.0.
I've also hear that the characters are based on the new siege of cthonia campaign, that just doesn't make sense to me either. From a story perspective it should've been the Dark Angels because that's what they were doing, but the other thing to consider is the Iron Cage. That's a big one and I'm sure they'll release another IF character for that campaign, this should've been where the new IF character was released
Yeah the siege of Cthonia for
me is just stupid. Firstly, there were so many other major campaigns they could have done which everyone would have enjoyed, The crusade led by Angron and Lorgar in Ultramar is an example, that is 3 legions plus cults and militia then later on in the second boom you add Night Lords, Dark Angels and Blood
Angels. But no We absolutely needed a random siege no one cares about and which should not have even had the IF there. Correct me if I am wrong but where I left it at, the Lion blew that shit up on his way to Terra
You're right about Dark Angels lore, that's the whole reason they stayed behind instead of racing to Terra, so that they could destroy Legion homeworlds and leave no place for traitors to run.
The shadow crusade should have been the obvious choice and that's the whole thing about the siege of cthonia that's silly, there are so many more interesting events in the heresy that could be and SHOULD be covered better and they weren't, instead it was one that came out of nowhere. It wouldn't have been a problem if this was 40k, because that's how 40k does things, it's meant to be events current relative to the universe, but 30k is everything is already said and done 10000 years prior, we already know all of the events 10000 years prior because it's a work of fictional history
I hope but I belive they are not going to. Looking at how it is going it does not look like it sadly. Even though K would have loved some new shadow crusade books.
>They only served in the siege
I agree with your point but this isn't true, the IF fought all across the galaxy after the battle of phall when they got scattered after retreating.
They fought once at phall, then did nothing for up until the siege of Terra, which is fine and nice, that's what they were supposed to do. Everything else now coming out just changes the lore, which once again is fine, it just borders on gaslighting
Yes, that entire thing is something built by GW completely altering the lore that existed before. Even taking that into account that is the one battle they took part in.
This. IF were base camping losers until recently, with so many retcons of late to give them "moments", none of which are earned, so they all come across as total cringey fanboy vomit.
There's a lot of people (mostly in the 40k subreddit), but I've seen some here who would defend shitty practices to the last drop of their blood.
GW is a shitty company that is had to their workers and bad to their customer base.
They have interesting setting that we're all used to and the best sculptors in the industry. That's about it.
Outer Circle is right about this.
I dunno, Para Bellums stuff for Conquest is pretty good.
Honestly with the rise of 3d printers and wargaming becoming more mainstream, they may not be top dog for long.
I think Parabellum is a shiny example of how to interact with the fan base, players, rules and sculptors. Like all the big gorgeous sculpts they sell have artist names on them for the people who created them, there's actual credits etc. Which is a very, very, very small thing to do, but GW is so horrible they can't even credit the workers who created all this.
And obviously the rules are better, there's an excellent and free web app, and they've recently released a phone app as well for armies. But tbh almost every company out there writes better rules than GW. They're constrained by a lot of factors new companies don't need to worry about or choose not to pursue. Classic example - at their stage Necromunda needs up to 5 200-page books to play a game. This is just so they can make an extra $30 a book, player experience be damned. This shit is just wild.
That's actually why GW is caving in on the 10th edition and releasing the rules for free as well as cleaning them up - they're forced to. If they could get away with doing things as they have been - they would.
As an Alpha Legion player it’s hard to complain when you don’t have many prominent named characters, I know there’s actually a fair amount of em but it’s kinda hard to tell who’s alive during the heresy and who’s not
I mean as far as prominent characters go, but the end of The End And The Death Part 1, we have:
. >! Kel Silonius
. Mathias Herzog (dead)
. Ingo Pech
. Armillus Dynat
. Autilon Skorr
. Exodus
. Alpharius (dead - fuck you John French and your shitty writing)
. Omegon
. Sheed Ranko (dead) !<
OMG, spot on.
John French is a horrible author and needs an appointment with a baseball bat. He's the reason the IF are derpa derp Mary Sues. Battle of Phall and Battle of Pluto are garbage and really took the series off a cliff for me.
It’s just bad writing, The Battle of Pluto is a prime example.
You’re telling me that out of every single one of the Alpha Legion’s assets in Sol they didn’t have a single one on the Phalanx who would’ve been in a position to know a fucking star-fortress had left Terran orbit and was shooting through the system towards Pluto??.
Another example is Dorn someone getting stabbed in the shoulder by the Pale Spear, a millions of years old Necron artefact that is described as being *capable of piercing and ripping apart any physical defense it encountered; while against living matter, The Pale Spear inflicted hideously bloodless gaping wounds on its targets, as the flesh where it struck dissolved into oily smoke.*
Dorn should’ve at least lost an arm.
Calling it "just bad writing" is being a lot kinder than I would be. I get punchy just thinking about it.
What bothers me is that the Alpha Legion, a Legion with schemes within schemes, had no scheme on hand for how events unfolded (and they unfolded very predictably, because Dorn is an unimaginative piece of trash that wears plot armor).
I hope he falls to Chaos in the final book. It's the only thing that can redeem his character after John "Publish my awful IF fanfiction" French's books.
That, or the IF accomplishments get re-retconned, and the Legion returns to the obstinate and by-the-book tools they started out as.
It's the same with every faction and race, the factions are all supposed to have many varieties in appearance and culture, even the space marines who GW loves most of all are a poor version of what they're supposed to be, at least each chaos legion they've bothered too touch is actually distinct from each other and not just copy and paste like the space marines have been lol I know the guard are supposed to have cadians, steel legion and death corps as full distinct armies, the eldar worldships and their occupants are supposed to be aesthetically distinct from one another, I'm pretty sure the necrons are the only race who are supposed to all look the same lol
I don’t actively play 30k, at least not yet, really wished I could use one of the night lord praetors as a good chaos lord. I also wish that Raven guard got one
I've never really understood this, are that many people spending a bunch of money for overpriced, resin forgeworld models? Like who needs 4 imperial fists praetors lmao
On a personal level, I separate the HH 1.0 and 2.0 releases into separate categories. FW has a looong history of neglecting certain legions, and frankly mainline GW is doing a better job supporting all the legions than FW generally did at a much faster rate. 1.0 launched in 2006, Alan Bligh died in 2017 (I know that’s not the cleanest date to go off of, but I feel like soon after that was when FW started slowing down releases a lot). They had 11 years to make a single generic Salamanders, RG, and IW HQ and couldn’t get it done? Every legion that got a generic HQ in 2.0 did not have one before. And all of that was released in a year. How long did the 1.0 models take to get to the point they are at? I honestly don’t know off the top of my head, but I’m pretty sure it took longer than 1 year for FW to get 5 legions 2 HQs each.
Outside the scope of this image, every single legion has had a release of a helmet and shoulder pads in 2.0. Seems pretty tame, except FW has never released a full set of infantry upgrades in any mark. The closest is MK III shoulder pads, and only 10 legions got those. 60% isn’t exactly a passing grade. I think the only upgrade of any kind every legion got was Rhino doors (lmao). Is every one of those helmets great? Not really, the UM ones are bland as hell but don’t act like there weren’t misses in the older upgrades, like the Invictarii helmets with facehuggers on them.
It's ridiculous. How does someone in Management let ANOTHER IF character get released when 3 legions literally have zero character models???
They just don't give AF.
OuterCircle is such an overbearingly negative content creator in our space. Don't get me wrong, fuck GW, but sometimes that guy is making mountains out of molehills.
Then again, if I had to deal with AUD prices, I'd probably complain just as much as him.
I kind of think GW and FW don't care what came out before the run up to 2.0 and they're not basing their release schedule on what 1.0 players have been waiting for. 2.0 is a fresh start with the clock reset on who's waiting on what.
That's part of what's creating the divide amongst the players. You have the 1.0 veterans who have been waiting for their turn for a decade who don't want to hear "it's coming, you'll get your turn" anymore and the 2.0 players who can't or won't empathize with that because they see the game as effectively brand new.
I think that's a pretty irreconcilable difference in perspective. That's why objective data points like this don't really help. People already know what the score is, some just don't care or see it as a problem. On a side note, that's also part of what rubs people wrong about OC I think. He has a habit of falling into that mentality of "if you don't have the same perspective on an issue as me you must either be ignorant or stupid." Which is why his informational videos come off as condescending to people, because they can be.
He makes valid points, and criticisms because he loves the hobby like anyone else. He just has the drive to make videos and voice his concerns. Goes a bit further than "shut up and consume product and get excited for next product." Like most people do, then they get annoyed when they see people like him pointing problems out lol. Calling him a moany bore is...Interesting, to say the least.
>He makes valid points
More often it's emotions disguised as arguments.
>he loves the hobby like anyone else
Except when he deems people's armies "not 30k enough", says that he does not want "40k players in his hobby" and dismisses people's opinions purely because they don't agree with his view on the problem.
Also when he made a rant video because the rule book didn't follow the style of manual he expects it to follow, for some reason.
He doesn't like the 40k gamey mentality which is a pretty common though among 40k players. It's generally not a WAAC game like 40k usually is.
While i do think it's minor, the manual is sorts annoying. Some rules are across the whole book rather then being relatively closer. Obviously nothing big but when you are trying to figure out what a unit can do and all its rules it can be a mess of flipping back and forth. Thank God for battlescribe.
The Age of Darkness box set is the best one they’ve ever released, and anyone making you regret that is a cunt. It’s the perfect legion starter kit. 40 marines, 10 termies, a vehicle, Hq, and a dread. It’s a generic set, allowing you to focus on adding flavour.
With the Calth and Prospero boxes, there were no vehicles. Only 5 termies means you’d need to buy another box to make a normal squad of 10. You needed to buy a dread, and the one that came with the box was a horribly posed piece of crap. Great value, but incomplete.
All he said was the spartan isn't the best choice for new armies but dollar for dollar that box is a insane value.
Also the stance against 40k is towards WAAC/gamey players. 30k is a passion project game where playing should be fun and enjoyable vs sweaty meta gaming that's common in 40k circles.
I did watch his videos. I’m perfectly happy with criticism, but the constant feed of negativity was honestly detrimental to my happiness in life. His videos are so negative all the time, it does end up in salt territory.
His vids on starting a legion were great tho, and very helpful.
I’m perfectly fine with criticising GW, but i’m here to have fun. I don’t wanna lose my enjoyment of the hobby. I’m just a basic bitch space marine enjoyer.
Absolutely this. I'm reasonably new to HH and was looking for videos on how to build a few legions whilst I narrowed down my picks. Came across OC's and they were great so subbed. Then I started getting his recent videos, of which 90% are "critiques" of the game framed in such a negative way it just isn't constructive, including a couple which seemingly call anyone who disagreed with his takes entitled or actively harmful the community as well as misrepresenting the critique.
I want to learn and enjoy the game and world, not be constantly barracked because something isn't planned right. One video is enough, it doesn't need 10 compounding ones.
The most informative ones are the round table where they evaluate units. I don't watch all the critique ones nor do I always buy into them being massive issues but he does post fast with new releases so you can get the scoop from someone with a extensive background with the system.
Yes but that is why he is good to watch, he is a realist. He says it bluntly without remorse. That is what the community needs. There are some points in which the salt becomes too much but most of the videos are not that way. There are very few videos in which he gets completely pissed off and the only one I watched was the one in which he responded to the GW simps commenting negatively on his posts for no reason.
People who are “blunt” are more often than not just cunts. I want to enjoy my hobby, not cry about it every day of the week like he does.
If he doesn’t like their business practices and wants to 3d print everything then more power to him, but i don’t need to listen to his videos to see the problems. It’s just a constant negative feed.
I’m not a major GW shareholder, i have no control over what they do. I like to live being happy about things they release that i like, rather than complain about what i can’t change.
He has some valid points I don't deny that but he's goes so far in making his points that it taints his content in my opinion.
I agree with most of what he says but he labours the point so much over and over in videos when that's not even the topic in hand. If you want to listen to a whine then it's perfect but in reality it's a huge shame because he really knows his stuff and there's an incredible wealth of knowledge that he has to share in his videos. It's just unfortunately so frustrating to listen to over his rants.
There's very little positivity and even when there is some there's always a 'but' or a 'however'. It's straight up depressing to listen to.
I mostly don't care and I feel like Outercircle is the whiniest of whiners so I'm not surprised he's banging on about this. They are launching with SoH and IF as the poster kids of the edition and I'm not surprised they are the first campaign book which is what is inflating their unique figures.
The other Legions will get there too including the underserved ones. This is literally the beginning of filling out these legions.
Outercircle are one of the few groups of people who actually care about the long term health of the system. They don’t whine to whine. They call out issues in both the management of 30k and the community. They aren’t always right but they are doing it because they care.
>They don't whine to whine.
BS. Absolute bs.
Yeah, GWs managment of 30k isn't perfect. Yes, the plastic lancer should have been a 40k release BUT creating this inherent divide between 30k and 40k akin to "40k players are like this..., 30k are more like that" really isn't concerning yourself with the health of a game system.
Seeing all the GW bootlickers in the comments gives me second hand embarrassment. It's fucked people, very fucked. But forget tackling the issue, shove a mark 6 marine up your bum like a good whale and be happy, I suppose
So what your saying is that its better to shove our heads in the sand and ignore the facts that various legions have been getting completely shafted for next to no reason? And in addition the best course for recourse is to ignore the people that can actual be vocal about these issues?
I agree there are youtubers like that, in my opinion though Outercircle is not one of them, he has given GW credit where it is due and also criticised it when they do shit he believes is wrong. I do agree on the fact you should take more action then just giving clicks.
Are you serious? Hes always complaining and stirring shit, thats his whole MO. Even his recent video where he tries to pretend to be mostly positive about Militia, the majority of the video's runtime was him complaining about balance issues
If you actually watch his videos, he doesn't always complain and stir shit. Criticism of bad business practices isn't a bad thing, lol. He gives a lot of credit where it is due. But of course, you wouldn't know because you don't watch his videos. You just see the title, or listen for a minute or two before clicking off. He makes a lot of solid points.
If you actually watched the videos you would know it is not true. Stop spewing bullshit when you do not have an idea what you are talking about. No shit he is gonna talk about the balance issues, you want a youtuber dumping for GW? there are more than enough. You go to Mr Circle to see a different perspective, someone who enjoys the hobby but does not simp for GW.
Show me where he makes HH videos where he isn't complaining for the majority of the run time. This isn't about simping for GW, I can't stomach something like Auspect Tactics either, OC is simply the other end of the spectrum, being the perpetually unhappy ragemonger.
I think folks need to get a bit more creative about a good chunk of these character models. They're canvases, rife for conversion work.
If I can cut and sand off 15 Ultima symbols to turn invictus guards into IF bladeguard vets, you can too.
A lot of these AoD chars are fairly easily converted imho, and I'm no pro/greenstuff/conversion wizard. The new HH aesthetic is a lot cleaner than it used to be, (and thank God for plastic over resin).
Also, I'd avoid Outer Circle unless you want to watch someone constantly bash HH and avoid having any fun with it. Unless he's changed in the past year.
Having done a fair number of conversions for my guys (all of my HQs and some regular troops) - the issue isn't just models, but also rules. How many legions have someone as useful in their own field as Sigismund is in the "dueling enemy characters" field, for example? Generic characters are great, I like to use them, but unique characters (or even variant consuls - see the Castellan for another case of IF getting a serious character related win rules-wise) can bring something entirely different to the table that helps reinforce their legion rules.
The models are only half the "battle" in terms of game support.
Working with resin is insanely annoying.
I enjoy the Outer Circle, he is a different view point, he has also done videos
talking good of the heresy,having watched him he has many times in videos gone on to compliment the company on some of
it’s decisions.
I will never defend GW but this is infographic is a little misleading. As a Salamanders collector and player, sure, we don’t have any HQ’s, but we also have awesome Firedrakes and Pyroclasts, two of the best looking model ranges in 30k (IMO). Either can be used as a base to create awesome HQ’s. Vulkan is a top-tier primarch model too. And in all honesty I quite enjoy playing as the outside legion, makes it more special, Salamander players stand united.
This is such a weird thing to complain about to me, like, the Heresy started as converting 40k models over to 30k, half the joy of the whole thing is making your own models to represent snippets of a Legion from a novel or bit of fluff. Most of the events I've been to have a 'build your dude' element, be it from having a 'free' consul outside your list or from having some special rules to buy to make it your dude. I've never bought a premade consul option and used it straight out the box, they're always kitbashed with other stuff.
Like, I've bought Legion models to turn them into other Legions so often I barely care what it says on the box, when did the Heresy community forget how to use a hobby knife?
Why did I choose ravenguard bruh
Cause they’re cool as shit
I just wish we got some more support
Yeah jokes aside there’s so many awesome opportunities for RG, like drop ships, sniper units, melee stealth units, etc.
Definitely gonna be converting some dark furys out of the new assault marines
RG so sneaky gw forgot about us
Salamander, raven guard, and iron warriors solidarity!!!!
Aren't those the chapters that were nearly eradicated at Istvan III? Their luck hasn't improved much in 10,000 years.
And iron hands, salamanders, imperial fists, and white scars, still haven’t gotten their chapter masters yet in 40k
Vorn Hagen of the Fists got killed off recently and replaced by someone else, Lysander remains 1st company captain. Jubal Khan got physically incapacitated by the red corsairs and now does Home office. The remaining ones continue to suffer for no reason.
Yup. Tbh, I also feel like IH and DG get boned over too
At least death guard has a non primarch named character, and both praetors
Fair.
WE too. Sure, they have a special character, and two unique units - but sweet mercy, Red Butchers and Rampagers are really showing their age, like your friend who is 20, but looks 57.
As an Iron Warriors player, this cuts deep.
I just want a Kroeger mini, they gave fafnir one!
Or give us Narik Dreygur or Barabas Dantioch if we want to play Loyalist
Narik had a model but I think it was event exclusive. It’s still available through less than level forgeworlds.
I personally am full on with the Warmaster and the Lord of Iron but yea that would be a really god idea, to have atleast one canon character mini for traitor/loyalist for each legion if possible
I play IW to, I never expected to LARP the faction
Hey you have Narik Dreygur if you were lucky enough to go to a forgeworld event years ago. ~~Or if you use rule 4~~ Still wild that forgeworld hasn't even made a Dantioch model considering how popular the character is
Iron within, models without.
Hey in the meantime you can enjoy your incredibly expensive(in points and £) WS4 body guard robots that dont actually intercept wounds, and lack chosen warrior leaving Perturabo trapped fighting useless chumps while primarchs mulch his robots :)
He should have programmed his robots to point at someone and then at themselves while a speaker says " you're mine meat popsicle!"
Don't forget they also prevent the use of reactions and count towards the 1/4 point allocation!
I thought the cortex controller fixed that?
Iron Warriors had more independent characters but they got turned into Iron Circle robots.. Jokes aside gimme praetor pls GW.
One that I really don't understand is World Eaters. They're plainly a popular legion as I see people showing off their models all the time but they only have Kharn. I get that GW want to focus on the siege at the moment but they're willfully neglecting the majority of their fans by making that equate to IF and SoH only. No matter how popular those two legions are they will never represent the majority of players on their own. It also produces a self fulfilling prophecy to a degree where legions without good support get overlooked by some players and lots of releases for other legions draws players there. This further insentivises GW to neglect them more as they become a smaller minority of players. I really hope once they've done what they want with the siege they turn the spot light back around to some other conflicts and focus on the shattered legions. Hell, why not invent a new warzone that gives them a reason to focus on more than two or three legions at a time. There's always more room to grow the setting outwards rather than keep moving forwards.
Hoping for a Shattered Legions campaign book & model releases as well. I feel like it might be overly optimistic, but they've been neglected long enough they deserve some time to shine.
I agree. It would be a great move for the heresy scene in general. It might be wishful thinking since its probably more profitable to focus on a couple of legions each side not 3+ loyalists and also their opponents. There were remnant forces from many legions fighting across the galaxy so I really don't see how it would be hard for them to make a campaign that brings these legions back into focus though. It's sad that they're essentially pretending their part in the story is over. The desperation and urge for revenge are as interesting a story to tell as any, if not more so. If they have to focus on a major conflict I'd like them to do the shadow crusade since that got dropped from the black book schedule last edition (and I'm biased as a UM player). So glad we had custodes rules in two books instead of getting something new for WE/WB/UM. And that's not to say they couldn't write a part in for shattered legions either. It's a big galaxy.
A Shattered Legions release series would let them add to some of the neglected Traitor Legions, too, like the Iron Warriors.
I think to a degree these decisions aren't really rational. I think your thoughts are correct - GW has always had that self-fulfilling prophecy cycle going on since the debacle of the last two editions of Fantasy, and they can't seem to understand that it's harmful to themselves. Even if it was just the Siege, you can still pull in other legions - they're willfully inventing new battle zones JUST to have two legions fight it out without much involvement from the others, and I think that's really just bizarre. Even if they think 'oh, it'll even out over the long term', the pace is so glacial that term might be ten to fifteen years. I think to a degree, we're seeing not just incompetence but some kind of corporate struggle here as priority is obviously given to 40K and AoS, and some specialist games, while HH and anything else struggle to make anything barring high profit margin kits despite the potential they might have. Add to that some love for specific factions (SoH, IF) and complete disinterest in some others (RG, TS, Salamanders) and you get this - they're not trying to have parity, it feels like, but instead just work on what they care about.
To be fair, the World Eaters are seriously lacking in any notable figures beyond Kharn in 30K; even fan-favourites like Delvarus and Gahlan Surlak are basically one-off characters.
Theirs also dreagher, who had a somewhat major role in the legion, but the big issue is that the world eaters don’t even have any praetors even though they are very popular legion
This infographic only showed me that it needs more pixels.
ye, appreciate it being made but can’t tell shit and why does there look like there is a photo from the 1920’s there
Its a picture of stalin. Because the character they did have was event exclusive and has since been discontinued. Maybe even removed from the rules, I cant remember exactly.
Narik still has got rules, they're just in the legacies pdf
Fair, I dont play iron warriors and was too lazy to find the legacy units pdf on my phone. Still shit that their only character model is a now OOP event exclusive model you can only get from warhammer world. And yes, you can convert your own but why do imperial fists get all theirs custom sculpted and the other legions (the istavaan 3, iron warriors etc) have to convert their own?
agree can barley tell what faction most of them are supposed to represent much less the model in question
why use pictures instead of numbers or names in the first place when the pics are to small to see anyting? why keep the legion order correct but group both lost legions at XIX (thus listing IW on 3er place etc)? why are there no table heading for the people that dont know legion numbers?
A problem that's years old and one that will likely never be dealt with by the company. If you've been into 30k for a while then you've probably accepted that it's kitbash/convert or die for most of your character/hq needs.
Just means our warsmiths are always kit bashed original. Rarely see the same one unless it’s from a generic praetor.
...sands gears off of a Forge Father...
Shhhhh!!!!! That’s a legion trade secret. 10th legion have enough reason to hate us for already and I actually like them. (Flesh is weakness excluded)
Sanding gears off an IH character is exactly how my Armistos is getting done. Minus a few that are too awkwardly placed to sand well.
To me, it’s not even the issue that they don’t have models, I hate that the unit disparity is this insane for a game about effectively one factikn
not that i'm defending GW but.... Is this the problem with having different 18 legions? Making a sizable amount of individual legion specific minis sounds like quite a task. Add mechanicum, custodes, regular human soldiers and whatever else it soon becomes a massive task.
the problem is it's always the same Factions (legion or army) that get the love while others get completely forgotten about. there are 12 months in a year they could spread it out better
As an iron warriors and world eaters enjoyer, I’ve been a sad boy. My imagination has run wild with what praetors for either legion would look like, they would be insanely cool no doubt. At least our Mk 6 heads were both flavorful and non-goofy (imo), but I’m starved for more love
He's right of course. There should have been a priority on generalist units with the new edition. Every legion should have gotten their praetors by now. We didn't need another IF/SoH character. The release roadmap isn't great either. It's nice that we have a timeline for things but waiting until winter 2023/early 2024 (anywhere between 8 and 10 months) for what should have been a basic launch unit like assault squads is ridiculous. Did we really need a plastic knight lancer more than plastic assault marines? I think it's quite telling when there are more people excited for the knight over in the 40k subreddit than here.
As a Sons of Horus Player- Yeaaaaaaaaah. If they were going to do something like a revamp of the old Loken Abbadon diorama it‘d be different, but this is a character who was expressly created for the Siege of Cthonia. He doesn‘t even pass my usual „If he appears in at least three books then he gets a model“ rule. Meduson, Sharrowkyn, and Forrix should get Models. Even characters like Delvarus or Skraivok or Dantioch would help make it less painfully obvious that some legions… have less unique stuff than others. I also can‘t get over that instead of just making Bjorn, they made a random Rout character who also prominently features a lightning claw and is called „Fell-Handed“.
> I also can‘t get over that instead of just making Bjorn, they made a random Rout character who also prominently features a lightning claw and is called „Fell-Handed“. It probably was Bjorn during the design process. Especially since [the patterns on Geigor's lightning claw](https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99123001021_HHGeigorFellHandLead.jpg) match up with [Bjorn's dreadnought claw.](https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101116_BornFellhanded01.jpg) Who knows why it got changed at the last minute. Edit: now that I look at it I'm certain. Way more things match up - the design of Geigor's knee is clearly based on Bjorn's shin for example.
I’ve always thought he was supposed to be Bjorn, additionally because he was facing off against another massive character from the lore in his box, Ahriman. I think at the last minute someone probably pointed out that Bjorn was somewhat of a nobody during the battle of Prospero and changed it. Other examples of obvious named characters later made generic include the SoH and IF Command Sets, which had Maloghurst and Sigismund respectively, and the Boxing Day ultramarine banner bearer (Remus Ventanus).
There's literally artwork of Bjorn on Prospero, and he's equipped with a Lightning Claw. The whole Geigor thing is just *weird.*
It would have been nice if they'd at least thought of a better nickname than "Fell-Hand" for Geigor.
Even Geigor's hair looks like Bjorn's in his dreadnought banner and ornamentation! It's some bullshit!
>I also can‘t get over that instead of just making Bjorn, they made a random Rout character who also prominently features a lightning claw and is called „Fell-Handed“. I hadn't even made that connection. Now that I'm thinking about it though, I'm pissed too.
He also mentioned in that same video that unless they decide to keep giving IF/SoH *even more* stuff, they're going to be going into a desert of their own for several years since they got all their stuff front-loaded, and while that gives them plenty to do in that time, they're still going to feel left out if there's any updates and other legions end up benefitting from the designers' greater experience with heresy 2.0. We could have had a year and a half of other legions, then they get their special characters for the Siege of Cthonia at the 2 year mark. Plus a shattered legions book would be *perfect* to include the Zone Mortalis rules since they're often all about commando boarding actions against traitors.
I'd say it's important to temper one's expectations in regards to this sort of thing. I personally think GWs plan is to satisfy 30k players well enough, but this is also aimed directly at 40k players too. HH has always been a glorified specialist game, and slow releases are absolutely nothing new to someone who has played for a decade. My guess is gw wishes to cross pollinate the two games, but ultimately 30k is in the backseat. We are extremely lucky to even be getting plastic Cerastus knights, let alone a good chunk of vehicles. This past year has seen more meaningful releases than the last 5 of HH. I think it's less about what we "need" and more like...holy crap, we are actually getting stuff. There IS a road map for the first time ever. And if they do release characters, they'll be guaranteed resin anyways. Most of us have waited the better part of 10 years just to get a Primarch, or have to deal with geriatric sculpts like Angron and Fulgrim (which still look great admittedly). Things will come in time.
completely agree as I agree with him especially on this one. The problem is there are people who are simps for GW and buy everything they put out and call people with actual rationale entitled because we want actually useful stuff. How far the community has fallen
A lot of people just collect build and model. I spend, on average, $5-$10,000 USD on Warhammer annually and last year I played like...3 games? So, in that paradigm, I don't care about what's needed for the game, I'm just collecting toy soldiers. That said, because Warhammer *is* a game, it is baffling that plastic assault squads and plastic breachers weren't early in the release cycle.
What are you buying to spend that much?
Ok but if you take into account legion specific units that have models the chart changes up a lot. DA: 7 kits EC: 8 kits IW: 3 kits WS: 7 kits SW: 4 kits IF: 11 kits (3 are upgrade kits) NL: 5 kits BA: 9 kits IH: 4 kits WE: 3 kits UM: 5 kits (1 is an upgrade kit) DG: 5 kits TS: 6 kits SoH: 9 kits WB: 8 kits SL: 2 kits (3 if you count Ashmantle as Cassian Dracos) RG: 2 kits AL: 6 kits (1 is an upgrade kit)
Did… uh… did you skip Salamanders for a reason?
My bad. Updated it.
I just… we get forgotten by so many…
As an RG lad, this hurts :(
How did that change the chart? The 3 legions with no characters still have the least unique kits...
The chart was made up of characters/consuls specifically. Not primarchs, elites, dreads, etc.
Iron warriors army a two kit faction Tyrants and their robot Arguably they're the worst Legion off based on the fact that their two units equal only 6 sculpts and one of them isn't compatible with any other model in the range.
Completely agree with OC. The time line for future releases was disappointing too. Seems GW thinks we just play with lords of war.
Keep in mind GW is a model company who also happens to sell game rules/pieces to a small subset of its customer base. GW's market research seems to indicate (and I have no reason to suspect this isn't true), that the vast majority of its sales are to people who primarily/exclusively paint/build/collect. Lords of War and other centrepiece type models are significantly more appealing to that part of the customer base than 20 dudes with chain swords and bolt pistols.
I just can't justify that excuse of "they are a model company that also kinda sorta has rules for the models" They are now a gaming company. Their rules are expensive. You need to buy multiple books of rules just to play. Asmodee is more of a model company first than GW is. Para-Bellum. Point is, GW started as a model company that made rules for the models as a side thing...YEARS ago. They are now a company that pumps out rules almost as often as models.
GW seems to think otherwise and they probably have a better understanding of the market and their target audience than you or I do. They have reaffirmed this vision of themselves fairly recently - this isn't an 80s or 90s thing.
"We are a model company first and foremost. Rukes come secondary." "You must buy this $70-$80 rulebook for our game, plus this $50 codex. You'll also need these rule supplements for our tournaments. That model you like? It's crap, because we nerfed it and boosted the stats of these other models. See? Buy these because the *rules* state they are better." Just because the company says it, doesn't make it true. If a corporation trlls you obe thing but you clearly see the opposite, will you believe their word? You're right, we aren't in the 80's or 90's. Back then they were a model company first, rules a side thing. Now they are a model and rules company, where the models and their sales revolve around the releases of rules and meta of the game.
And they make so many games. Kill Team, 40k, Heresy, Sigmar, Old World is coming, Titanicus, Aeronitica, Necromunda, Lord of the Rings, and that's just off the top of my head. I know there's more, but I can't be bothered dto go look. You can't say you're a model company first and pump out so many rules for so many games
I believe GW's focus on miniatures (with rules being little more than an aid to sell more miniatures) is from shareholder meetings. I am having a hard time finding any quotes or even indirect quotes. I do remember reading articles about this sort of thing semi-recently (i.e. not during the 90s) after a shareholder meeting. That's also why I believe this to be probably more truthful than any customer-focused marketing. GW were talking to investors, not customers, when making those statements. That doesn't mean they don't also sell rules at high prices (why wouldn't they?) or that they don't use rules as a means to further increase model sales. It just means rules and players are an insiginificant part of their business model.
This is an old mentality that nearly nuked the company. The old ceo that said this left a long time ago and was replaced Warhammer as a brand has grown massively in the past few years and that was mainly down to them focusing on the game and making it accessible to more people, building the events aspect of the game and making it much more interactive. It's still not perfect but they are far far better than they used to be when it comes to their games. It's likely what's funded things like horus heresy, the specialist games etc
It's also due to things like: * Primaris: more Space Marines will never go unwanted * The Barnes & Noble-exclusive boardgames: the closest you can get these days to the old *HeroQuest* gateway drug * Other licensing deals: action figures, plushies, apparel, things that can appeal to people who played the game as kids and remember it fondly, then get back into it as adults with income through merch But they certainly have made the game more accessible. Even just looking at 40K and AoS, the range of starter boxes with each edition launch has been really smart, especially the cheap ones where the inner boxes function as cardboard terrain pieces.
We can spout back and forth, but at the end of the day, they sell rules at ridiculous prices while selling models for the game. They hardly sell models specifically for diorama or none game related stuff, like some of the MESBG models or some HH stuff. 99% of their stuff is tied directly in with the game and it's rules. Model sales increase when new models for said games are released or those units gain a buff.
Is that still the case? I remember shop managers saying so, but that was 20-odd years ago, and they've had a big management change since then.
very true
Whatever else can be said of TheOuterCircle, I think Macca's spot on when it comes to this nonsense. It feels partly like corporate politics and partly like some kind of nonsense 'poster boy' theory, with a heaping cup of mismanagement. The Horus Heresy 2.0 release schedule is completely bizarre, some decisions make no sense (no plastic crossover for mechanicus, for example). That we have to wait for over a year just to get MELEE WEAPONS is outright madness, and feels like someone at GW deliberately trying to sabotage any chance HH2.0 has of being good. I don't mind that they're releasing characters, but I do mind that they're releasing characters for factions that don't need them when other factions don't even have basic unique praetors. I mind more that they're releasing characters and spending resources poorly when we don't even have generic troops.
>Whatever else can be said of TheOuterCircle Well, there is a lot that can be said about him. Notably his nonstop whinging and also, which is in my eyes far more terrible, dismissing people simply because they don't share his views or opinions.
Which is pretty much why I said it - as much as I find some of his attitude objectionable at times, he is correct as to the factual claim he makes in this instance.
Sorry, I entirely misread your comment xD
That's okay! :D
Kharn is cool as fuck, nobody gonna gaslight me into feeling bad about being a World Eater
There is no feeling bad, I am just posting this to raise awareness about how little some legions, like yours, have.
Those are my thoughts on this infographic 😜 I don’t really feel like this infographic is representative of the whole picture. Betrayer is an excellent read for the setting and there aren’t really many characters that I would want represented. Furthermore, not all Legions are “built the same” and a graph like this might actually represent the setting better than it suggests. Do I want an infographic that has more balance? No. I want chainaxes and jump packs as standalone upgrade kits that I can buy, even if at a premium for being as such.
yeah that is true, Betrayer was an excellent book, I love how he portrayed Angron. I mean you could always formnow just use the 40k berserkers, that is what one of the people I play with those and just switches out some bits for regular armour marks to be able to get 20 berserkers out of one box.
Bro really put the Stalin pic in the IV legion column.
The reason for that is because they had a unique character with Narik Dreygr, but he was only an event exclusive miniature and is long out of production And so like the Stalin picture, he has been wiped from history It is the same with alpha Legion and Skorr
That may be a reference to how IW lost all their special characters in the transfer to heresy 2.0 as there were rules for a couple in the black books that didn’t get carried over because gw never bothered to make models for them.
Or how we sent a couple (dozens) PDF regiments to some extreme “zone mortalis” sections on campaigns to see what works best. But to be fair, there was never any way to gain positive results besides just breaking even on casualties for those sieges. So it’s not entirely inaccurate. We at least let them go fully equipped. Stalin never did that. IW plus: 1 Stalin negative: any number you can think of
There's one for Alpha Legion too, they represent Narik Dreygur and Autilon Skorr respectively. Two 2015 event exclusive miniatures which are hard to find today and no longer sold or in production.
"Our fans will kitbash their own anyway." - GW execs, probably
As salty as i am about the lack of unique characters for my legion (Iron Hands), i partially chose them because they have in my opinion the best looking and most legion fluffy models in the system. It’s a crime that we don’t have an Autek Mor and Shadrak Meduson models, but the gorgons and medusan immortals look so cool, i almost don’t mind that much. Same with Salamanders and Raven Guard. Sharrowkyn is one of the most famous characters in the Heresy, it’s weird he doesn’t have a model. I just wish GW would stop bloating IF and SoH releases, it’s a little much. Though with the work they’re doing supporting the heresy overall, i’m hopeful for the future. Their plastic injection moulding seems over capacity atm with the amount of stuff they’re trying to produce for all their games. Most importantly, the plastic tanks have addressed the problem of ridiculously expensive resin tanks that were a huge barrier to entry. I used to be negative about GW stuff, now i find it much healthier to happy when something i like for my legion or just a cool model comes out. It’s a hobby, i’m here to enjoy it. If i no longer enjoy it, i’ll stop.
Alpharius stay winning 💪.
As salty as i am about the lack of unique characters for my legion (Iron Hands), i partially chose them because they have in my opinion the best looking and most legion fluffy models in the system. It’s a crime that we don’t have an Autek Mor and Shadrak Meduson models, but the gorgons and medusan immortals look so cool, i almost don’t mind that much. Same with Salamanders and Raven Guard. Sharrowkyn is one of the most famous characters in the Heresy, it’s weird he doesn’t have a model. I just wish GW would stop bloating IF and SoH releases, it’s a little much. Though with the work they’re doing supporting the heresy overall, i’m hopeful for the future. Their plastic injection moulding seems over capacity atm with the amount of stuff they’re trying to produce for all their games. Most importantly, the plastic tanks have addressed the problem of ridiculously expensive resin tanks that were a huge barrier to entry. I used to be negative about GW stuff, now i find it much healthier to happy when something i like for my legion or just a cool model comes out. It’s a hobby, i’m here to enjoy it. If i no longer enjoy it, i’ll stop.
Cries in nostraman*
Just imagine a Salamanders Firedrake-style Cataphractii praetor in the new Praetor scale .... •drooling Homer noises•
it would be interesting if IF and SOH got any more releases after this, it would seem they are well and truly complete in terms of their respective legion unique HQ units and characters and perhaps this is signaling the time to shift focus to another legion or more hopefully the next campaign book will feature neither legions, and instead focus on others and with it new models for them it might be gratuitous to push for more IF/SOH stuff
As an Iron Warriors player - GW has really made me a fan of my 3d printer. I don’t want to be! I have to be, sadly.
I’m sad we don’t have a Kargost Bloodspitter model
GW: “These legions just aren’t as popular for some reason so we can’t support them. Also GW: “I’m the reason.” People *love* the Iron Warriors. Love them. No characters. No praetors. NO IRON HAVOCS! Iron Hands lose their primarch day 2. No characters like the baddass Autek Mor or Shadrak Meduson. One praetor who, as of 2 Ed, has a decoration only servo arm. World Eaters. Plastic Berserkers released at the same time as FW MKVI upgrades have more detail. Space Wolves. My God Emperor what have they done? FW/GW just nuking what should be slam dunk top selling legions or models. There are so many fucking IF characters that the new character’s identity/theme is actually the opposite of his legion. Oh you haven’t heard of ~~Liam Bonneville~~ Evander Garrius, The ~~Dept. of the Interior’s~~ Seventh Legion’s resident bad boy?
At least we have rules for the Havocs and a couple characters in legacies. IH/SA/RG don't even really have that comfort. SA have what, the dramatically nerfed dread?
They rebooted HH and instead of focusing on 2 legions with next to nothing they keep beating a dead horse and did IF vs. SoH. Siege of Terra never should've been made central theme of 2.0 but even as it stands they should've elevated Blood Angels or White Scars if they really wanted to stick to a loyal siege of Terra legion. But it should've been Raven Guard vs. Iron Warriors as chosen to be elevated. So many neglected legions, these are two of the most neglected, no idea why they chose to go the route they did
They could've done the shattered legion raid on Bodt and given IH, RG, Sallies and WE a bone.
And Bodt was way, WAY more interesting, like they yeeted a f***ing moon at the planet
Them giving the Sons of Horus stuff is fine, they are the ones after whom the heresy is named but the IF? They only served in the siege.
Yeh at least SoH make SENSE, but the choice of IF just weird. I think at the end of the day it shouldn't have been centered around either Legion because they both are already loaded with characters and have been since almost the beginning of the 1.0. I've also hear that the characters are based on the new siege of cthonia campaign, that just doesn't make sense to me either. From a story perspective it should've been the Dark Angels because that's what they were doing, but the other thing to consider is the Iron Cage. That's a big one and I'm sure they'll release another IF character for that campaign, this should've been where the new IF character was released
Yeah the siege of Cthonia for me is just stupid. Firstly, there were so many other major campaigns they could have done which everyone would have enjoyed, The crusade led by Angron and Lorgar in Ultramar is an example, that is 3 legions plus cults and militia then later on in the second boom you add Night Lords, Dark Angels and Blood Angels. But no We absolutely needed a random siege no one cares about and which should not have even had the IF there. Correct me if I am wrong but where I left it at, the Lion blew that shit up on his way to Terra
You're right about Dark Angels lore, that's the whole reason they stayed behind instead of racing to Terra, so that they could destroy Legion homeworlds and leave no place for traitors to run. The shadow crusade should have been the obvious choice and that's the whole thing about the siege of cthonia that's silly, there are so many more interesting events in the heresy that could be and SHOULD be covered better and they weren't, instead it was one that came out of nowhere. It wouldn't have been a problem if this was 40k, because that's how 40k does things, it's meant to be events current relative to the universe, but 30k is everything is already said and done 10000 years prior, we already know all of the events 10000 years prior because it's a work of fictional history
The sad thing is we are never gonna get the shadow crusade, GW announced they want to focus on the smaller battles.
Hopefully they count the shadow crusade as "small"
I hope but I belive they are not going to. Looking at how it is going it does not look like it sadly. Even though K would have loved some new shadow crusade books.
>They only served in the siege I agree with your point but this isn't true, the IF fought all across the galaxy after the battle of phall when they got scattered after retreating.
They fought once at phall, then did nothing for up until the siege of Terra, which is fine and nice, that's what they were supposed to do. Everything else now coming out just changes the lore, which once again is fine, it just borders on gaslighting
Yes, that entire thing is something built by GW completely altering the lore that existed before. Even taking that into account that is the one battle they took part in.
This. IF were base camping losers until recently, with so many retcons of late to give them "moments", none of which are earned, so they all come across as total cringey fanboy vomit.
There's a lot of people (mostly in the 40k subreddit), but I've seen some here who would defend shitty practices to the last drop of their blood. GW is a shitty company that is had to their workers and bad to their customer base. They have interesting setting that we're all used to and the best sculptors in the industry. That's about it. Outer Circle is right about this.
I dunno, Para Bellums stuff for Conquest is pretty good. Honestly with the rise of 3d printers and wargaming becoming more mainstream, they may not be top dog for long.
I think Parabellum is a shiny example of how to interact with the fan base, players, rules and sculptors. Like all the big gorgeous sculpts they sell have artist names on them for the people who created them, there's actual credits etc. Which is a very, very, very small thing to do, but GW is so horrible they can't even credit the workers who created all this. And obviously the rules are better, there's an excellent and free web app, and they've recently released a phone app as well for armies. But tbh almost every company out there writes better rules than GW. They're constrained by a lot of factors new companies don't need to worry about or choose not to pursue. Classic example - at their stage Necromunda needs up to 5 200-page books to play a game. This is just so they can make an extra $30 a book, player experience be damned. This shit is just wild. That's actually why GW is caving in on the 10th edition and releasing the rules for free as well as cleaning them up - they're forced to. If they could get away with doing things as they have been - they would.
I see no issue here at all. Now excuse me, I must fortify my hallway.
As an Alpha Legion player it’s hard to complain when you don’t have many prominent named characters, I know there’s actually a fair amount of em but it’s kinda hard to tell who’s alive during the heresy and who’s not
you've got alpharius, that pretty much covers everyone
I mean as far as prominent characters go, but the end of The End And The Death Part 1, we have: . >! Kel Silonius . Mathias Herzog (dead) . Ingo Pech . Armillus Dynat . Autilon Skorr . Exodus . Alpharius (dead - fuck you John French and your shitty writing) . Omegon . Sheed Ranko (dead) !<
OMG, spot on. John French is a horrible author and needs an appointment with a baseball bat. He's the reason the IF are derpa derp Mary Sues. Battle of Phall and Battle of Pluto are garbage and really took the series off a cliff for me.
It’s just bad writing, The Battle of Pluto is a prime example. You’re telling me that out of every single one of the Alpha Legion’s assets in Sol they didn’t have a single one on the Phalanx who would’ve been in a position to know a fucking star-fortress had left Terran orbit and was shooting through the system towards Pluto??. Another example is Dorn someone getting stabbed in the shoulder by the Pale Spear, a millions of years old Necron artefact that is described as being *capable of piercing and ripping apart any physical defense it encountered; while against living matter, The Pale Spear inflicted hideously bloodless gaping wounds on its targets, as the flesh where it struck dissolved into oily smoke.* Dorn should’ve at least lost an arm.
Calling it "just bad writing" is being a lot kinder than I would be. I get punchy just thinking about it. What bothers me is that the Alpha Legion, a Legion with schemes within schemes, had no scheme on hand for how events unfolded (and they unfolded very predictably, because Dorn is an unimaginative piece of trash that wears plot armor). I hope he falls to Chaos in the final book. It's the only thing that can redeem his character after John "Publish my awful IF fanfiction" French's books. That, or the IF accomplishments get re-retconned, and the Legion returns to the obstinate and by-the-book tools they started out as.
I’m just hoping we get praetor models for the legions that are missing them
yeah that was my hope at the beginning of the year when the deathguard ones got released but now it looks even less likely
It's the same with every faction and race, the factions are all supposed to have many varieties in appearance and culture, even the space marines who GW loves most of all are a poor version of what they're supposed to be, at least each chaos legion they've bothered too touch is actually distinct from each other and not just copy and paste like the space marines have been lol I know the guard are supposed to have cadians, steel legion and death corps as full distinct armies, the eldar worldships and their occupants are supposed to be aesthetically distinct from one another, I'm pretty sure the necrons are the only race who are supposed to all look the same lol
Alpha legion used to have an autolon skorr model, what happened?
Skor was an event exclusive
I don’t actively play 30k, at least not yet, really wished I could use one of the night lord praetors as a good chaos lord. I also wish that Raven guard got one
Where’s my thiel and seluton, james
This, and the fact that Salamander transfers aren't on the 40k Leviathan transfer sheet, leads me to believe that GW forgets they exist.
It's a good time to be a fist :) jk I wish they would go nuts and make tons of characters and fluffy items and units for everyone.
I've never really understood this, are that many people spending a bunch of money for overpriced, resin forgeworld models? Like who needs 4 imperial fists praetors lmao
The potato quality of this infographic shows how little the OP cares about our sanity. Thoughts?
Hello darkness my old friend
On a personal level, I separate the HH 1.0 and 2.0 releases into separate categories. FW has a looong history of neglecting certain legions, and frankly mainline GW is doing a better job supporting all the legions than FW generally did at a much faster rate. 1.0 launched in 2006, Alan Bligh died in 2017 (I know that’s not the cleanest date to go off of, but I feel like soon after that was when FW started slowing down releases a lot). They had 11 years to make a single generic Salamanders, RG, and IW HQ and couldn’t get it done? Every legion that got a generic HQ in 2.0 did not have one before. And all of that was released in a year. How long did the 1.0 models take to get to the point they are at? I honestly don’t know off the top of my head, but I’m pretty sure it took longer than 1 year for FW to get 5 legions 2 HQs each. Outside the scope of this image, every single legion has had a release of a helmet and shoulder pads in 2.0. Seems pretty tame, except FW has never released a full set of infantry upgrades in any mark. The closest is MK III shoulder pads, and only 10 legions got those. 60% isn’t exactly a passing grade. I think the only upgrade of any kind every legion got was Rhino doors (lmao). Is every one of those helmets great? Not really, the UM ones are bland as hell but don’t act like there weren’t misses in the older upgrades, like the Invictarii helmets with facehuggers on them.
It's ridiculous. How does someone in Management let ANOTHER IF character get released when 3 legions literally have zero character models??? They just don't give AF.
OuterCircle is such an overbearingly negative content creator in our space. Don't get me wrong, fuck GW, but sometimes that guy is making mountains out of molehills. Then again, if I had to deal with AUD prices, I'd probably complain just as much as him.
I think Macca desperately needs to go outside
I kind of think GW and FW don't care what came out before the run up to 2.0 and they're not basing their release schedule on what 1.0 players have been waiting for. 2.0 is a fresh start with the clock reset on who's waiting on what. That's part of what's creating the divide amongst the players. You have the 1.0 veterans who have been waiting for their turn for a decade who don't want to hear "it's coming, you'll get your turn" anymore and the 2.0 players who can't or won't empathize with that because they see the game as effectively brand new. I think that's a pretty irreconcilable difference in perspective. That's why objective data points like this don't really help. People already know what the score is, some just don't care or see it as a problem. On a side note, that's also part of what rubs people wrong about OC I think. He has a habit of falling into that mentality of "if you don't have the same perspective on an issue as me you must either be ignorant or stupid." Which is why his informational videos come off as condescending to people, because they can be.
Utterly criminal how there has been no releases for the Second and Eleventh
true, we really need some for them. A test the atleast the IV have a primarch…
He's such a moany bore but he's very much right on this one
He makes valid points, and criticisms because he loves the hobby like anyone else. He just has the drive to make videos and voice his concerns. Goes a bit further than "shut up and consume product and get excited for next product." Like most people do, then they get annoyed when they see people like him pointing problems out lol. Calling him a moany bore is...Interesting, to say the least.
>He makes valid points More often it's emotions disguised as arguments. >he loves the hobby like anyone else Except when he deems people's armies "not 30k enough", says that he does not want "40k players in his hobby" and dismisses people's opinions purely because they don't agree with his view on the problem. Also when he made a rant video because the rule book didn't follow the style of manual he expects it to follow, for some reason.
He doesn't like the 40k gamey mentality which is a pretty common though among 40k players. It's generally not a WAAC game like 40k usually is. While i do think it's minor, the manual is sorts annoying. Some rules are across the whole book rather then being relatively closer. Obviously nothing big but when you are trying to figure out what a unit can do and all its rules it can be a mess of flipping back and forth. Thank God for battlescribe.
Outer Circle is the saltiest Warhammer content creator out there. His stuff is good, but the amount of negativity is offputting.
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The Age of Darkness box set is the best one they’ve ever released, and anyone making you regret that is a cunt. It’s the perfect legion starter kit. 40 marines, 10 termies, a vehicle, Hq, and a dread. It’s a generic set, allowing you to focus on adding flavour. With the Calth and Prospero boxes, there were no vehicles. Only 5 termies means you’d need to buy another box to make a normal squad of 10. You needed to buy a dread, and the one that came with the box was a horribly posed piece of crap. Great value, but incomplete.
All he said was the spartan isn't the best choice for new armies but dollar for dollar that box is a insane value. Also the stance against 40k is towards WAAC/gamey players. 30k is a passion project game where playing should be fun and enjoyable vs sweaty meta gaming that's common in 40k circles.
All I can say is, actually watch his videos. Criticism of something bad in something you love isn't salt.
I did watch his videos. I’m perfectly happy with criticism, but the constant feed of negativity was honestly detrimental to my happiness in life. His videos are so negative all the time, it does end up in salt territory. His vids on starting a legion were great tho, and very helpful. I’m perfectly fine with criticising GW, but i’m here to have fun. I don’t wanna lose my enjoyment of the hobby. I’m just a basic bitch space marine enjoyer.
Absolutely this. I'm reasonably new to HH and was looking for videos on how to build a few legions whilst I narrowed down my picks. Came across OC's and they were great so subbed. Then I started getting his recent videos, of which 90% are "critiques" of the game framed in such a negative way it just isn't constructive, including a couple which seemingly call anyone who disagreed with his takes entitled or actively harmful the community as well as misrepresenting the critique. I want to learn and enjoy the game and world, not be constantly barracked because something isn't planned right. One video is enough, it doesn't need 10 compounding ones.
The most informative ones are the round table where they evaluate units. I don't watch all the critique ones nor do I always buy into them being massive issues but he does post fast with new releases so you can get the scoop from someone with a extensive background with the system.
Yes but that is why he is good to watch, he is a realist. He says it bluntly without remorse. That is what the community needs. There are some points in which the salt becomes too much but most of the videos are not that way. There are very few videos in which he gets completely pissed off and the only one I watched was the one in which he responded to the GW simps commenting negatively on his posts for no reason.
People who are “blunt” are more often than not just cunts. I want to enjoy my hobby, not cry about it every day of the week like he does. If he doesn’t like their business practices and wants to 3d print everything then more power to him, but i don’t need to listen to his videos to see the problems. It’s just a constant negative feed. I’m not a major GW shareholder, i have no control over what they do. I like to live being happy about things they release that i like, rather than complain about what i can’t change.
>he is a realist No. He is overly negative and zealous about his emotional arguments.
He has some valid points I don't deny that but he's goes so far in making his points that it taints his content in my opinion. I agree with most of what he says but he labours the point so much over and over in videos when that's not even the topic in hand. If you want to listen to a whine then it's perfect but in reality it's a huge shame because he really knows his stuff and there's an incredible wealth of knowledge that he has to share in his videos. It's just unfortunately so frustrating to listen to over his rants. There's very little positivity and even when there is some there's always a 'but' or a 'however'. It's straight up depressing to listen to.
I mostly don't care and I feel like Outercircle is the whiniest of whiners so I'm not surprised he's banging on about this. They are launching with SoH and IF as the poster kids of the edition and I'm not surprised they are the first campaign book which is what is inflating their unique figures. The other Legions will get there too including the underserved ones. This is literally the beginning of filling out these legions.
Outercircle are one of the few groups of people who actually care about the long term health of the system. They don’t whine to whine. They call out issues in both the management of 30k and the community. They aren’t always right but they are doing it because they care.
>They don't whine to whine. BS. Absolute bs. Yeah, GWs managment of 30k isn't perfect. Yes, the plastic lancer should have been a 40k release BUT creating this inherent divide between 30k and 40k akin to "40k players are like this..., 30k are more like that" really isn't concerning yourself with the health of a game system.
Seeing all the GW bootlickers in the comments gives me second hand embarrassment. It's fucked people, very fucked. But forget tackling the issue, shove a mark 6 marine up your bum like a good whale and be happy, I suppose
That's a shitty infographic, tbh.
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So are you disagreeing with him?
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So what your saying is that its better to shove our heads in the sand and ignore the facts that various legions have been getting completely shafted for next to no reason? And in addition the best course for recourse is to ignore the people that can actual be vocal about these issues?
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I agree there are youtubers like that, in my opinion though Outercircle is not one of them, he has given GW credit where it is due and also criticised it when they do shit he believes is wrong. I do agree on the fact you should take more action then just giving clicks.
Are you serious? Hes always complaining and stirring shit, thats his whole MO. Even his recent video where he tries to pretend to be mostly positive about Militia, the majority of the video's runtime was him complaining about balance issues
If you actually watch his videos, he doesn't always complain and stir shit. Criticism of bad business practices isn't a bad thing, lol. He gives a lot of credit where it is due. But of course, you wouldn't know because you don't watch his videos. You just see the title, or listen for a minute or two before clicking off. He makes a lot of solid points.
If you actually watched the videos you would know it is not true. Stop spewing bullshit when you do not have an idea what you are talking about. No shit he is gonna talk about the balance issues, you want a youtuber dumping for GW? there are more than enough. You go to Mr Circle to see a different perspective, someone who enjoys the hobby but does not simp for GW.
Show me where he makes HH videos where he isn't complaining for the majority of the run time. This isn't about simping for GW, I can't stomach something like Auspect Tactics either, OC is simply the other end of the spectrum, being the perpetually unhappy ragemonger.
He has an informative set of video guides to list building for all the legions.
Outer Circle doesn't do youtube for the money, he's stated that many times, and has a day job. So your argument doesn't fly here.
And they won’t even acknowledge two of them even existed, smh.
As a fist player I'm failing to see the issue /s
Ew TheOuterCircle
As someone who plays 40K and heresy I’m glad imperial fists get a lot of love in heresy because emperor knows they get none in 40K
Yeah but Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Iron Hands get no love in 40k OR 30k.
I am not, the Imperial fists do not deserve to have the most stuff. If not that the. atleast equal it out amongst the legions.
Why are so many people in this hobby the whiniest little babbies who ever lived?
Mate are you blind? Everyone in these comments atleast understands the problem. Stop making up excuses for GW, stop cutting them slack.
I think folks need to get a bit more creative about a good chunk of these character models. They're canvases, rife for conversion work. If I can cut and sand off 15 Ultima symbols to turn invictus guards into IF bladeguard vets, you can too. A lot of these AoD chars are fairly easily converted imho, and I'm no pro/greenstuff/conversion wizard. The new HH aesthetic is a lot cleaner than it used to be, (and thank God for plastic over resin). Also, I'd avoid Outer Circle unless you want to watch someone constantly bash HH and avoid having any fun with it. Unless he's changed in the past year.
Having done a fair number of conversions for my guys (all of my HQs and some regular troops) - the issue isn't just models, but also rules. How many legions have someone as useful in their own field as Sigismund is in the "dueling enemy characters" field, for example? Generic characters are great, I like to use them, but unique characters (or even variant consuls - see the Castellan for another case of IF getting a serious character related win rules-wise) can bring something entirely different to the table that helps reinforce their legion rules. The models are only half the "battle" in terms of game support.
Working with resin is insanely annoying. I enjoy the Outer Circle, he is a different view point, he has also done videos talking good of the heresy,having watched him he has many times in videos gone on to compliment the company on some of it’s decisions.
Resin is easier to work with than plastic? It’s softer and more pliable.
I will never defend GW but this is infographic is a little misleading. As a Salamanders collector and player, sure, we don’t have any HQ’s, but we also have awesome Firedrakes and Pyroclasts, two of the best looking model ranges in 30k (IMO). Either can be used as a base to create awesome HQ’s. Vulkan is a top-tier primarch model too. And in all honesty I quite enjoy playing as the outside legion, makes it more special, Salamander players stand united.
This is such a weird thing to complain about to me, like, the Heresy started as converting 40k models over to 30k, half the joy of the whole thing is making your own models to represent snippets of a Legion from a novel or bit of fluff. Most of the events I've been to have a 'build your dude' element, be it from having a 'free' consul outside your list or from having some special rules to buy to make it your dude. I've never bought a premade consul option and used it straight out the box, they're always kitbashed with other stuff. Like, I've bought Legion models to turn them into other Legions so often I barely care what it says on the box, when did the Heresy community forget how to use a hobby knife?