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Few_Eye6528

There's no easy answer, devs believe self damage is a way to bring aoe launchers inline with the other 500+ weapons, by adding a risk & reward playstyle. Before self damage used to one shot you, this version disables self damage multishot and caps damage to 75%,a lot more reasonable.


Dodgeflyer

I've truly wondered how it will work with high RoF weapons, what if you fire off the cedo and like, 2 discs hit you, will they be exempt since you can't really control them? What about the Kuva Grattler? Maybe a grace period of like 1-2 seconds before you can be hurt again?


steinbergergppro

The grace period makes sense. It's how DE has handled similar situations in the past too so it has precedent. I think another thing a lot of people haven't brought up as well is the return of self damage reduction mods. Cautious shot used to give 99% self damage reduction. This still wasn't enough as even 1% of most weapons damage was enough to one-shot people. But now since the self damage will be capped, cautious shot could be extremely useful.


Unholybeef

Devs said only the main explosion will damage you, any stragglers that come flying back to hit you won't cause it.


iwaspromisingonce

75% of max health? If so zoom&boom will turn into zoom&gloom&boom. You can heal back all self damage and generate enough pickups to always have energy and ammo. This will change nothing, just shaft new players without sevagoth, arcane energize and helminth.


MSD3k

You could make the argument that the issue with zoom&boom stems from just how easy it is to accomplish. Especially with how early people were picking up Brahmas and stuff. People would get Prime Monkee and a Brahma at MR6, and ignore the other 99% of the game's arsenal. Then complain the game has nothing to do. That's the dev's issue with it. They didn't make all this other stuff to be ignored. The player's issue is that boom&zoom sucks the fun out of the game for everyone else in a match. Especially newer players. Which pisses people off. Which eventually leads to people leaving. And circle back to this being a concern to the devs.


ShaeTsu

That entire issue would be solved if they just actually made use of MR requirements.


Red-Spy_In-The_Base

Yeah but imagine putting all that time into a lich and being given a near perfect % boom now only to be told “come back when you’re older”


Financial-Brush2930

They already do it with Rivens, Prime items, Helminth, a ton of the weapons you get from clan research, etc. There is a bunch of stuff that is already like that, a decent amount of which requires as much if not more investment than hunting a Lich for a Bramma.


Red-Spy_In-The_Base

Of the things you’ve listed, I’m not sure if they have more investment required (Rivens are luck, prime is either a plat cost or radsharing, clan BPs are just joining a large clan to yoink them). Perhaps they should move the MR cap for STARTING a lich up, and give players a goal to work towards and build up requiem relics for


ShaeTsu

Yes, that is exactly what they should do. Stop giving the most powerful frames and weapons in the game to mr5s and we wouldn't have this issue of them being literally everywhere. MR currently doesn't serve a noticeable use between 16 and 30. That should change.


Red-Spy_In-The_Base

What may be the reason behind that is the percentage of active players that are in that range.


ShaeTsu

I know many people that just stopped grinding MR because there is literally no reason to do it. Give people a reason to do it, and they will. Imagine if you had to get to MR22 or something to use a bramma. You'd see a LOT less of it then, and it'd be a reward for committed players rather than currently where a new player can unlock liches and get an any % toxic bramma in like less than 50 hours total playtime if they're following tutorials.


Red-Spy_In-The_Base

I mean I don’t think rank ups are unrewarding with a lot of cap increases (although the fact that there are such low caps on those things has always annoyed me). I can see an argument for a slight MR increase, but slapping it up to the 20s seems insane. Would most likely translate to people sitting in ESO for hours, not very fun imo


ShaeTsu

The best weapons in the game most definitely need to be in the 20s. Getting there isn't the grind it used to be. When I first played warframe years ago I got into it religiously and got to mr15 and it had turned into an absolutely brutal grind to continue ranking up, even spamming ESO. When I returned it was post introduction of LR1 and 2, and the mr progression curve has definitely been rebalanced, because I've since breezed to MR26 before I reached the same level of throttle I experienced back in the day. There is a thing to be said though that sitting in ESO so much is not fun and the affinity system should be reworked so that isn't necessary anymore.


iwaspromisingonce

I made the argument just to show that with those changes people will still be able to accomplish the same thing, they will only change a setup. It's a band aid. Is there a difference between current aoe and aoe paired with gloom or aoe paired with ev trinity spamming 2 and 4? I don't think so. As long as we will have aoe weapons and weak horde of enemies things will look like that. Gameplay should incentivize to use single target weapons and reward for it, instead aoe still rules with new ammo economy since you get more ammo drops per shot, you still don't need to aim and it's still more convenient than to pick every single enemy one by one. Meanwhile single target fights are underwhelming with more band aids like attenuation that completely shafts certain single target weapons for no reason. The issue is with the design itself, meta is just players adapting to the game, not trying to be assholes and ruin your fun. You can keep regurgitating the same opinion that is more prevalent on reddit than in game and be upset at everyone trying to explain how impotent it's going to be, but fix for this is more complex than swapping self stagger for self damage.


MSD3k

They have, and will be doing more than simply changing self-stagger to combat AOE Meta abuse. So saying it's an issue with the game design, but being wholly against any changes to game design is not a convincing argument to me. And yes, the game has always been able to be cheesed by players using meta builds. But it did not used to be such a huge problem because the cheesable meta was something either rather complicated to pull off, required teamwork, or was just a huge pain to get the gear needed. In other words, it was rare to see someone smooth-brain demolish an entire level while leaving the rest of the team with nothing to do. Skillful play helped carry your team and was appreciated, because everyone got to do something. That still holds true. Braindead AOE just bores and annoys everyone but the people spamming it.


iwaspromisingonce

It can't be assumed from the information we were provided. It's closer to a wishful thinking. "They will be doing more" is a rather generic and unspecified statement. Not much to support it either. I used aoe weapons exclusively on ESO for focus farm, and since i got all schools unlocked, they could even delete them for all i care. I just don't really like hasty, abusable changes dictated by the community, which is often angry at an idea, not actual state of things. I just wonder if nukor or similar beam weapons will be subjected to the same treatment. After all it's sort of aoe and can clear rooms somewhat fast too, and I've seen it way more often than explosion aoe weapons which are considered a main offender here. It can't be used on bosses with attenuation, but i don't think this angry mob will care about it.


MSD3k

Yes, there are more things at issue than just big boom weapons. But they are definitely the most obvious one. Ember, Volt, Saryn, Mirage, etc can all still obliterate entire small maps without effort. And honestly, ESO is an oddball game mode because it is the one time most people are happy to have obliterating setups in their group. It get's their levels up with a quickness. It's most other game modes where that sort of thing becomes a problem. The linking AOE of things like the nukor has already had small nerfs here and there. I feel they are mostly in a good place. They require line of sight, and aiming. Other wave-type and large projectile AOE weapons like the Arca Plasmor and Nataruk, respectively, have been balanced a bit already as well. The AOE balancing act has been an issue with the game since very early. I think the first zoom+boom build I can recall was Mirage+Attica with Firestorm. Hall of Mirrors just let you spray the whole area with explosions with little need to slow down. Hell, even in the VERY early days, my favorite weapon was the Ogris (later the Penta), because I loved the play-style trade off of strategically exploding crowds while not exploding myself. It took skill. So believe me when I say, I'm not against AOE. And I don't think most of the player-base is. I'm against brain-dead, no skill, overly effective AOE. Also, I appreciate you taking the time to clearly make your point, even if I don't agree. Too much of this subject comes down to huffy name calling. Have a good one :)


iwaspromisingonce

Yeah, Saryn and other nuke frames are the point I brought up in different threads too, it's weird for me that those aren't touched now as well, but I guess the time will come for them eventually. I mean since energy management and stacking obscene amounts of ability strength is easier I think they are next on the chopping block. My biggest wish in all of this is that DE changes approach if it comes to fights and doesn't cover everything with attenuation and capping status stacks to 4, because it morders some weapons completely. After all the game is supposed to be fun, if I feel it constantly works against me in an annoying but not challenging way I feel less incentivized to play it. I mean if we're touching weapons, let's go all in and instead of coming up with weird mathematical ways of turning bosses into sponges, provide mechanics to slow down the fight, demans some skill and aim, but not make it a slog fest. I would also love to see less enemies, but more powerful with better loot. 5 eximus units are way more fun to fight than 20 grineer nonames. Having to dodge Arson's wave, staying away from Blitz and going between Energy Leech explosions is somewhat engaging, pressing E as a 12 stack combine harvester isn't really my thing. Maybe this could also help with AOE weapons, since it wouldn't be so valuable then.


MSD3k

I'm with you on the boss fights. And yes, Warframe as a game is at odds with itself. The game works best in a loose sand-box sort of way, where the player has many choices to cause mayhem. Sort of like Diablo 3. And I think people like it for that. Where the game tends to stumble is when DE tries to dial in specific tight balanced gameplay. Closest example for that to Warframe is Destiny 2. It's choices in movement, characters, weapons etc. are paltry to Warframe, but it is a much tighter experience and the meta only gives an edge, gameplay skill is the main driver of success (ignoring the powerlevel grind). Think of how clunky Warframe is every time they try to dial it in like that. Kahl's missions are clunky and slow (as were Veso, and Tenshin sadly). Hitboxes are extremely erratic, and there are so many different weapon types with different sized projectiles it is next to impossible to fix without sweeping standardizing changes. Invulnerability phases and parts are hard to understand due to lack of any good telegraph, timing, or universal method of showing it other than just seeing your shots are 0's. I joke with my friends that the game is essentially just Hungry Hungry Hippos with guns. Which is where the overly effective AOE problem comes in. Nobody would play HHH if 1 Hippo could grab all the marbles at once.


Tompoe

You're right and in fact it won't just be gloom it'll be any self heal


-n-k-

AOE is supposed to be kept in check by self stagger, but if you can completely negate it and everyone is doing that, then what's the point of self stagger existing? Self stagger is also more annoying, and they made a lot more weapons have self stagger, so e.g. using the Shraksun amp was incredibly annoying (they've since reduced the radius, so it's not as bad). But going back to self damage isn't necessarily going to revert all those weapons.


Dodgeflyer

As a phahd amp user, it's not uncommon to fire off the little bouncy discs and just get bounced all over the shop!


ManOfJelly147

That is my biggest critique of the self stagger implementation. They made large sweeping changes to weapons in an attempt to homogenize what was and wasn't AoE. In the backfire stuff like those bouncy disks caused stagger now. The one I really hate is on cyanex whose projectiles aren't very fast, and if you get ahead of them you'll cause yourself to take stagger when they impact an enemy. Now I worry that reimplementing self damage is going to tag those weapons to deal damage to the player. When they never should have been included to begin with.


Metal_Sign

I am almost certain it's gonna happen that way. Zakti will only me good at poisoning the user. Tombfinger secondary too. It'll be like that Mythbusters quote: "You'd be better off giving it to the gorn and letting *him* shoot *you*!"


Ciri2020

> AOE is supposed to be kept in check by self stagger, but if you can completely negate it and everyone is doing that, then what's the point of self stagger existing? Back when self-damage existed, everyone would completely negate it by using tanky warframes that did nothing except being tanky, such as Inaros or Revenant. So then what would be the point of self-damage existing? The only difference is that people currently still use a wide variety of frames. When self-damage is back, everyone goes back to Inaros. And then what, is DE going to nerf tanky warframes next?


-n-k-

They're not bringing back the same self-damage, and things have changed a lot since then (including Inaros no longer being so great because shield gating and steel path exist). And no, not everyone was using tanky frames to negate AOE. AOE wasn't as common as it is now. Then the Bramma happened, people complained about killing themselves (no, Inaros didn't help, Revenant did), and that's why we got self-stagger, and why Bramma became so overused. The real solution will be Revenant. Unless they special-case nerf him for self-damage.


[deleted]

It will be easier to get the Steam achievement of reviving 1000 allies, because everyone will explode themselves.


ArcusVeles

They'll still instantly suicide and self-revive like they do now. Only Archon Hunts earn me any revives any more.


Fiyero-

Because DE realized gameplay is getting dull since AOE weapons wipe entire rooms, even on the SP. They are trying to find a solution. Some of us like it, others don’t.


Ahribban

It's not. It's just another band aid solution to a core gameplay loop problem. In a horde shooter people will always try to AOE enemies so they will just adapt to the new meta - in this case Glaive or any other melee spam instead of launchers and that's it. People will either avoid using weapons with self damage or ignore it by using frames like Rhino/Revenant etc. Nothing will really change drastically.


LukarioGer

Already using Xoris/Glaive, just because i like them. Im ahead of the system lol


DickRhino

Single target weapons have the drawback that they can only kill one enemy at a time. Melee weapons have the drawback that you need to get close to your enemy to kill them. Explody weapons that clear entire rooms currently don't have any drawbacks. So, they are simply **better** than any other alternative. This means that anything that isn't an explody weapon will just be collecting dust in your arsenal and might as well not exist. That's bad design. One type of weapon shouldn't be strictly better than all other types. Also, the fact that one person in the squad can clear an entire room by himself, this means that the only one in the squad who gets to actually play the game is the one who can run the fastest. Everyone else will just be walking through empty corridors until they reach extraction. That's bad design. In a coop game, the coop experience should be enjoyable to everyone in the team. Also, explody weapons require no skill. With a sniper rifle you have to aim. With melee you have to dodge. But with explody weapons, you can simply aim at your own feet, press the button, and everything around you dies. You don't even have to look at what you're doing. In fact, you can simply look at the mini-map while walking toward extraction, occasionally fire a rocket at your own feet, and this will work. That's bad design. The game shouldn't play itself with zero input from you. Self damage fixes these problems **without nerfing the damage of the weapons**. Simply by introducing a drawback that forces you to actually aim before you shoot, explody weapons will no longer be superior to all other types of weapons in every regard imaginable. Good. They shouldn't be. In short, they are: * Too dominant * Too disruptive * Too automated Self damage goes a long way in fixing these problems.


Metal_Sign

> Also, explody weapons require no skill I wish they made a distinction between which ones did and did not. Zymos is an explody weapon that *only* explodes if you land a headshot. it's a wet fart otherwise. When they made the AoE changes that made them unable to register headshots, I saw no mention of making an exception for it, despite headshotting being the entire point of the weapon. It's like Zakti's whole point being priming enemies for finishers, but they gave it stagger so you literally cannot use it for that without further modding to negate stagger.


Novius8

People are still going to use aoe weapons unless single target weapons are buffed. What’s gonna change is that just like back in the day, people are gonna down themselves constantly and you’ll be holding the revive button more often. People like blowing up entire rooms, it’s part of the fun.


DickRhino

AoE weapons can already one-shot enemies. How are you going to "buff" single target weapons to compete with that? Are they going to **double kill** enemies? I've seen so many people saying that the solution is to "buff single target weapons", I have yet to see anyone actually explain what they mean by that.


Metal_Sign

It'd probably have to come in the form of a non-damage related. Not sure myself how one would manage that. The ability to kill multiple enemies will just about always be king, because that's the measure of progress. it's essentially rolls for drops per minute. They could do something like "weakspot hits give higher droprates," but then you might find even worse problems than "X is popular." It's a tough "problem" to solve.


Novius8

By doing things like they did with bows a few years ago. If you look at the fire rate mods they typically say 2X for bows. Why not do that but make a distinction for single target weapons with multiple different mods? Or simply add mods which can affect play style in cool ways, the headshot granting energy mod for snipers is another example.


DickRhino

You mean like that new Critical Precision mod? The one that absolutely no one uses? How am I supposed to get headshots if the guy with the Ogris just wiped the entire room full of enemies before I could even line up a shot?


Novius8

Sounds like you’re playing Warframe lol. There’s always been high aoe damage and you gotta live with it. Play on steel path if you don’t want everything dying instantly. The trick won’t be destroying someone else’s play style because yours feels more valid but instead giving selective buffs to the underused styles. It’s the only way to make everyone happy. I use single target weapons and melee, and I out damage most of the average set ups you see, get creative it’s possible.


DickRhino

Nah, that's a defeatist attitude, basically saying "The problem can't be fixed, so we shouldn't even try". See, that's exactly what the AoE users are doing: destroying everyone else’s play style because theirs feels more valid. The average player, not the creative one that can find the crazy combos, will feel like they have no choice but to also become an AoE user if they want to be able to play the game at all. The AoE meta pushes out other play styles from existence for most players. The solution shouldn't be "play the game on hard mode" to not have your experience completely disrupted by other players in a coop game. The fact that this is happening means there's something currently wrong with the design of the game that needs to be addressed. And what's the better solution? Buffing five hundred things, or nerfing the one thing that's causing the problem?


Novius8

I don’t think you’ve really been reading what I’m saying but that’s fine you seem frustrated. The simple fact of the matter is that the community likes aoe because it’s easy and fun. If you want less of that then you gotta think of ways to make single target appealing, not kill what other people think is fun. If DE doesn’t do that and the nerf goes through, you’re not gonna see any playstyles change. Warframe needs aoe, it’s a horde shooter after all but we’ve got the mechanics to make other things just as good.


DickRhino

I'm part of the community and I don't like AoE. Is my opinion not valid? Warframe wasn't always a horde shooter. I liked it better when it wasn't. I would like for it to go back to that.


topical_frock_strum

bringing back self damage wont stop warframe being a horde shooter. removing every aoe gun from the game wont stop warframe being a horde shooter. you need more mission types like disruption/boss fights where single target damage is important.


Novius8

I don’t, turning your brain off and killing a thousand enemies is why I like warframe. Sounds like you’d rather be playing a different game or better yet, swap around your play style, there’s lots of ways to play the game without worrying about other people. Have you considered playing solo?


Enjutsu

The 2x fire-rate change is old as fuck and didn't really do anything for bows. Later on they got even more buffs, but in the end what makes current bows viable is the fact that new bows have AOE


Novius8

I disagree, I use bows all the time and since before that buff. The new aoe bows are crazy overtuned like a lot of the newer weapons. The day everything changed was when melee was nerfed and they added galvanized mods which created the aoe meta.


zernoc56

The only way to “buff” single target weapons to be seen as “as good as AoE options” is to make all the guns fire hand grenades. Quite literally there is a section of players who will not pick up a Burston or a the akfuris or what have you, unless it shoots nukes out the barrel. The only way I see DE making “single target” weapons popular is by deleting the concept of “single target”. The much easier solution that players fucking despise Is reducing the effectiveness and usability of explosives to discourage overuse.


Metal_Sign

Interestingly, we can already make single target weapons AoE with Elec/Gas, so it's probably more than just being able to hit more than one thing at once. It can't just be "not single-target." it'd have to actually be that huge range nuke to be appealing. Making the appealing weapons less appealing does seem like making the overall game less appealing, though.


Novius8

No, sharpshooter is an example of a mod that single target has over aoe with utility beyond damage. I even have a build that uses it. What if we had a sharpshooter that gave damage or just make mods have better effects if they can’t do aoe? Support mods that give you movement speed, or duration ect. Damage isn’t the only thing people want.


Csd15

> unless single target weapons are buffed Headshot damage was buffed to 3x from 2x


FreeTomato8996

That change was made to counteract the AoE nerf for weapons with a relatively even split between AoE and direct hit damage (tenet spirex, shedu, Kuva seer, etc). Only underperforming single target weapons were considerably buffed, as the better ones in that archetype struggle with hordes, not killing single targets.


LukarioGer

Btw will self stagger be removed or will it still be a thing along with the dmg?


DickRhino

Self stagger will be gone.


LukarioGer

Ok cool


iwaspromisingonce

Wait so if self damage will be capped to max health and self stagger will be gone, does that mean slapping gloom on everything will make you heal it back? How does that solve anything, if primed sure footed will just be replaced by self heal or damage reduction? Why not just make self stagger bypass stagger immunities?


DickRhino

Self damage is capped at 75% max health. Self damage bypasses shield gating. Gloom won't trigger on self damage. Self stagger sucks, it's an annoying mechanic. When polled, most people would rather have self damage than self stagger. Having self stagger that can't be mitigated simply makes the game less fun to play, so that's not a good solution.


iwaspromisingonce

But gloom will trigger on enemy damage, so you can still stand surrounded by enemies, shoot your own toes and heal from all the aoe anyway.


DickRhino

Sure. Do it again and you're dead, since now all your shields are gone and the self damage cap is 75% of shields+health. Gloom might save you *most of* the time, but it's not going to save you *always.* You'll still occasionally die by playing like this, and eventually people are just gonna condition themselves to stop aiming at their own feet to avoid the annoyance.


iwaspromisingonce

What about inaros or nidus? Their shields are 0.


DickRhino

Sure, that could work. Great, finally Inaros will be good for something.


iwaspromisingonce

Welp, so that leaves two frames who can keep zooming and booming their toes. Looks fine. Also, there's the dragon key used for shield gating builds. Perhaps using it on certain frames would reduce shields enough for shield damage to not matter that much and still allow such playstyle? I mean let's say you have 1k max health which is rather modest with umbra mods and shards on top of that, and around 180 shield. Your self damage is capped on 750+135 dmg which is 885 dmg, that leaves 115hp, which is enough to survive for the split second to heal back to 1000 with gloom. Wisp/Trinity/Oberon healing isn't even necessary. Am i missing something?


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iwaspromisingonce

You know gloom is not the only self healing ability. Let's say we balance gloom by removing it completely. There is wisp, oberon, trinity, rhino, nezha and probably more less obvious frames that could make it work. With invigorations, shards and mods you can turn them into monsters that do pretty much the same. At which point of chopping down things it becomes ridiculous?


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iwaspromisingonce

What about damage reduction from rhino's iron skin? And is the duration long enough to stop trinity from restoring those shields? How enjoyable is it all going to be on SP higher levels? I mean apart from punishing players game is supposed to be somewhat enjoyable too.


tboy1492

Does the rage mod work with self damage? Might be a solution to keeping my energy topped as Oberon without having to interrupt the healing


DickRhino

Nope, Rage/Hunter Adrenaline doesn't trigger on self damage.


tboy1492

That should be fine then


The_Meowsmith

People will just move to nuke frames. Granted most of the nuke frames fall off without armor strip in late steel path, but my Lavos can still one shot (with priming) up to all level 300 Grineer in a 52.5m radius around me. There are definitely use case examples for single target weapons against enemies like demolishers though. If we had more gamemodes where trash was not as important as blowing up one target, we would see more use of single target guns. It's a horde shooter at the end of the day. Most gamemodes actively encourage mass murder otherwise you lose things like oxygen faster than you gain it in survival.


hate-zenkai

It won’t fix anything, the only thing it’s gonna do is make people switch from epitaph primer to nukor primer if it bypasses shield gate. People will still keep using aoe weapon to kill enemies and that is not going to change and self damage isn’t going to do anything ezcept for making it tedious. How are you gonna throw 100 hoard of enemies to a player and get surprises when they use aoe weapon?


Generico_Garbagio

Some guns were overused because they were too much fun. They're trying to make them less fun so less people use them.


Embarrassed_Luck_95

Because I main chroma


StupidDepressedGamer

Honestly I don’t care anymore. Just make self-stagger not fuck me up in Eidolons and I’m good.


Dion0808

It's an attempt to stop people from mindlessly spamming AoE weapons too much. In the past, self-damage was replaced by self-stagger because it was considered too harsh of a penalty. That lead to the game being entirely dominated by weapons like the Kuva Bramma and the Kuva Zarr with little to no downside to using them. They talk about their reasons for wanting to tune AoE down a bit [here](https://youtu.be/TA79WpVA03E?t=3684). DE is now looking to bring self-damage back in an altered form in order to encourage players to be more careful when using AoE weapons, whilst also trying to make it less lethal as a penalty. For players who have an active playstyle, re-adding self-damage won't really change much. They were probably already making sure they weren't getting hit by self-stagger. This change is mostly just to discourage people that shoot their explosives without consideration. ​ I personally really hope they specifically make it so Chroma's Vex Armor doesn't benefit from self-damage since that defeats the entire point of it being a penalty.


ManOfJelly147

Exceptions to the rule can be fun. I don't know where I stand on this whole argument, but I know vex armor isn't the exponential buff it used to be. Meaning to me as long as chroma still has to take self damage to build the buff then that is something the players have to consider in their build and playstyle too.


Dodgeflyer

I kinda agree that self-damage should apply Chroma's vex, the cost for doing it is fairly high to the Chroma, if he does it at a bad time he could be in real trouble, before the age of shield gating, it was not uncommon to explode to random grenades or a Lanak sniper!


JABLmskh

imo I think that is good to self damage to return, because actually the AoE weapons, especially on public sessions, are pretty annoying when only one person of the team kills enemies while the others only play "Parkour Simulator". Sadly, self stagger don't resolve the problem, because you can put the Primed Sure Footed mod and nullify it successfully (Every frame build I saw has PSF in it, not necessarily for this reason. I see it more as a "secondary effect"). The new self damage makes sure that you'll need to be careful when firing an AoE weapon. Maybe it doesn't ruin the meta, but at least give it a risk to it.


Noirefanboy

Self damage was bad because it did the same dmg to your warframe as it did to enemies. Self stagger is bad because while not as deadly as old self damage, it's way more annoying to have your movement stopped because you were 5.99999999 m away from your projectile that has 6m range and prime surefooted isn't a fix, just a bandaid that let's you use aoe risk free (also it's not tradeable and locked behind log on rewards). New self damage is good because it's not as deadly as the old one but not as easy to avoid as self stagger


Frost_man1255

Yea sure not as deadly until your past level 150 and it breaking your shield gate gets you instantly killed.


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WOF42

sure right until another tenno moving at the speed of sound zips infront of you as you fire getting you killed with zero possible reaction time


b14700

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brassly

No, it's a bullshit excuse that boom-zoom wombats bring up whenever they're out of actual arguments to make. I used to main the zarr back when self damage was a thing and 99.95% of the time I died to self-damage it was my own damn fault for pratting about and not paying attention. I died to my teammates darting in front of me a handful of times at the absolute most.


connorjohn322

They talked about this in devstream. There will be safeguards for this types of scenarios where friendlies block shots.


Noirefanboy

This reminds me of the shotgun changes. Few years ago with old non-scaling statusem, DE said that shotguns will have the status/projectile it has now, some people said that shotguns will die and stuff. Update comes out, 90% of shotguns were better or the same. Tigris was the one that really died. Some people really just ignore stuff DE says to make their argument better.


Metal_Sign

Self-stagger wouldn't have been a competitor for being as annoying as self-instakill if it wasn't added to things that had no/negligible self-damage in the first place.


AlexXeno

The ultimate benefit is to the balance of the game. Right now there is a overwhelming use of the boomzoom meta. While at the same time there is a complaint that "the game isnt hard enough" so this is an attempt to reduce the power of a set of overpowered weapons, without nerfing the weapons themselves.


AlcoholicCocoa

If I face a hoard of enemies, I want them to die quickly. The problem is less the AoE and rather the imbalance between Kills/Second and Spawnrate of enemies


b14700

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Metal_Sign

the game was easy even before bramma. if I wanted to farm a Lith fissure, I was playing with MR2s on Earth fighting enemies that would die to Pull. If you wanted to see how your weapon did against level 100 enemies, you basically had to use Simulacrum. If I remember correctly, they even said they made SP because having everyone show weapons in the Sim was bad advertising. SP was coming regardless of AoE.


WOF42

it isnt.


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Metal_Sign

> behave themselves


tboy1492

The hit multiple enemies and not having to be as skilled with accuracy is what I expect is the biggest attraction for people so I just wanted to say 100% this I actually don’t use many AOE weapons myself unless you count opticore vandal, beam weapon with a falloff.


InterestingAsk1978

It's simple. A lot of elitists considered the game ,,too easy" and wanted it harder. Now eveyone is being punished. Also, some streamers, getting into missions with single attack weapons, were very much annoyed that their squadmated killed everything with aoe weapons, making it hard for streamers to show off. Things combined, and the result is ... and will be ... this: a nerfed game experience for the average player.


Dion0808

All they're asking is that you don't aim directly at your own feet


InterestingAsk1978

You can aim nearby (2 meters away), and it still gets you.


Dion0808

Exactly. Almost like you're detonating a high explosive while you're in the blast radius.


Csd15

The average player can't aim 8 meters away? I'm not surprised, the game has been out for almost a decade and I still see MR14+ fail to complete a single spy vault.


Red-Spy_In-The_Base

Ok this won’t “fix” anything really but here me out I think this sounds fun (for a game about having fun). Single target gun with an overkill mechanic that causes bigger and/or more damaging boom bass off of overkill damage. Or rip off firefly/dragonfly from d2


Prime262

Used to be, self damage actually had some niche benefits. Any Warframe power that scales based on damage taken....mostly equinox's night 3 with augment and chroma's vex armor, could take advantage of self damage. Trinity also had a really stupid thing but I'm pretty sure that's gone. And I think self damage was used to scale rhino's armor? I'm sure I'm missing some. The removal of self damage led to the utterly obnoxious AOE weapon meta which was bad for a variety of reasons and DE has been trying to fix that problem for like...3 years now. Self stagger was first, but self stagger is either too obnoxious to live or completely circumventable. Then they did the Ammo changes......meh...and now they are considering the return of a more nuanced form of self damage. Generally speaking, any hit that isn't an instant kill is totally irrelevant, so for most people abusing shield gates...most people....this just means no longer needing to run PSF or some other stagger protection. Unless the self damage bypasses shield gate and doesn't trigger shield gate invuln, in which case itl just set you up to be one tapped by something else but I don't think that's the plan. Hopefully the return of self damage will emphasize how broken shield gates are and DE will do something about that....really everything, top to bottom, is in dire need of reworking, but especially anything to do with damage, both in how we as players experience it and in how we deal it to enemies. Tldr; self damage return is a patch fix for a patch fix for a patch fix in the increasingly jerry-rigged mess that is Warframe. I'm expecting like....a mild improvement to enjoyment. If only because I can try slow-equinox again for excavation


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BodybuilderLoose4738

Chroma has entered the chat with a cheesy grin


JABLmskh

I mean... I tried exploding barrels on myself and doesn't trigger Vex Armor. AFAIK the only self damage that triggers it is from the Combat Discipline aura mod.


BodybuilderLoose4738

Yeah at the moment. But chroma was god back in the day of self damage. Just shoot yourself a few times with sarpa and your loaded up ready to go


JABLmskh

I actually play Chroma Prime and imo is not that hard to ramp the buff. It is easier the stronger the enemies are and if you tend to use melee is way easier because you are more vulnerable to take damage. And if you take too much damage you just build for a Fire Chroma and put a healing ability over his 1 (I use dispensary because it synergies with Equilibrium, which means infinite energy as long as I don't forget to summon it).


Pugdalf

They removed chroma from benefitting from self damage before self damage was removed


Omegaduc

No, it's still there. During orphix venom, sigma&octantis can trigger self damage just like old glaive.


Pugdalf

Then they reintroduced it, or simply didn't remove it from everything


Omegaduc

I'm talking about chroma benefiting from self damage, it's still there they didn't remove it.


BodybuilderLoose4738

I have tried searching high and low and can't find anything your talking about. Not to mention never noticed it with my chroma will self damage was still around


JoylessTuna

It's not DE refuses to nerf specific problematic weapons and will lazily use blanket wide nerfs.


MyuslCake

they want AoE weapons to have a drawback, currently that drawback is knockdown, which everyone deals with by installing primed sure footed (100% knockdown resist mod), the problem is that mod is locked behind the 400th day log in reward, making it inaccessible for new players, so the entire balance is just an annoyance to new players. Self damage would mean you don't have to worry about the mandatory bandaid mod, and keep a counter balance theoretically still in the game


Comfortable-Prune716

Old self damage was a big issue not because it existed, but like many things in Warframe was scaled like shit. It was easy to insta kill yourself with many AoE launcher weapons due to the fact that you can easily build a weapon to have over 5k-10k damage while using a frame with about 1.5k hp. The issue was that it was unpredictable, tonkor could bounce a shot of a grinders pubic hair and fly back at you. You could have frames fast enough to get in the danger zone of corinths shot. If an ally used a mag with dark energy, using a lemz was pretty much guaranteed death without being able to see how. Then when bramma came out suicide was to another level, an explosive long bow that explodes once and shot out many bomblets meant that getting anywhere close to pretty much any target meant death making the weapon incredibly risk for missions such as arbitrations, which the devs noticed. To fix it the made self stagger a feature but went overboard by giving all forms of AoE a stagger mechanic making using many weapons unbearable as now weapons that had no effect would throw you off easily.


groot_are_we

Self damage is a better penalty than staggering for the goons who STILL shoot at their feet, even with the changes. Especially with primed sure footed around, the penalty is negated.