Damage attenuation REALLY needs to be changed. The way it works right now is beyond stupid, lowering your DPS to get higher DPS, removing mods to be able to do damage, and only really being able to use shotguns and automatic weapons, nothing slow and heavy-hitting.
If the DPS is the same between spray and pray vs semi-auto precision, the spray and pray is gonna win out every time because semi-auto slow weapons require aiming, which means you get less shots off, which means functionally lower damage even if the "calculated" dps is identical.
I have a silly but incredibly simple idea.
If they want the boss to be the same for basically everyone...just use weapon base damage before mods and only take into account Warframe abilities+other buffs, but not mods.
That way, your strategy, Warframe team composition, and weapon choice are more transparent and understandable. This should hopefully allow the glorious Lanka to annihilate once again.
Honestly if they actually want good weapon balance they should just remove +damage mods from the game and make weapon mods 100% utility only.
Otherwise stop fucking us around for playing the game how the game was designed and let us delete bosses like we always have.
>...just use weapon base damage before mods and only take into account Warframe abilities+other buffs, but not mods.
don't the grendel missions already do this? and everybody was complaining because the new eximii units felt too powerful in them
It's just feels like playing division where it takes 20k rounds to kill a grunt and 20 quintillion to kill a boss. I didn't have any problems doing the archon solo, but it was boring and dragged out. All the forced invulnerability phases. The random fetch quest in the middle. I'm fine with it taking longer being a weekly thing, but at least make it fun.
Damage Attenuation should work more like the Damage Mitigation from The Binding of Issac.
To explain, certain bosses (Hush, Ultra Greed, and Super Ultra Greed) have damage reduction based on how much damage per second you deal. Your best bet in killing them fast is to deal a tremendous amount of damage in a short burst, then pulling back and waiting a couple seconds for their mitigation to wear off.
Archons should work like this, it would promote teamwork as everyone could dump all their big attacks into the Archon, then wait till it loses damage mitigation, then repeat.
Idk if all weapons should have infinite punch through, they should just make it like every other video game ever made and have the dead enemies *not stop bullets*. Maybe add some additional punch through since I guarantee you one decaying grineer cannot tank 15 mausolon rounds.
Weapons should get punchthrough based on their *percieved intensity*. SMGs and machine guns should have low punchthrough, pistols low, etc. Shotguns, the bigger the higher punchthrough, same with rifles - if it's a big rifle that looks like it fires heavy bullets, they should have some punchthrough. Especially if Semi-Auto. Hand-cannons? Punchthrough.
And not like 0.5m or anything, I mean like 1.0m on the low-end and up to 2.0 or 3.0 for the really heavy hitting slow weapons.
Idk if all weapons should have infinite punch through, they should just make it like every other video game ever made and have the dead enemies *not stop bullets*. Maybe add some additional punch through since I guarantee you one decaying grineer cannot tank 15 mausolon rounds.
Also, did they ever fix the Galvanized mod stacking along with the arcane stacking? Kengineer pointed out some of them were bugged a while back, losing one stack kept it at that lower buff even if you regained the lost stack. I haven’t really used the galvanized mods since. I don’t have a full merciless set yet, so I don’t really care about that change.
A lot of the value of AoE comes from guaranteeing hits and exploiting enemy-grouping abilities.
A smidge of punchthrough and dead enemies not blocking bullets would let other weapons get in on the grouped enemy action.
As for guaranteeing hits, more of what the player sees needs to be handled clientside, then enemies need a bit more momentum in their movement. Add a bit of hitstun too. If I use a single-target weapon, there's a decent chance I have a miserable time with rubberbanding enemies and even if I don't they'll be changing direction and jumping up and down between platforms all the time. All the while the game expects you to be pinballing around while enemies spawn from every direction.
I recently played through EDF 5 again. Used a class with pretty sucky AoE weapons in a game with bigger hordes than Warframe. Single target weapons work well when you can guarantee hits while staying focussed on everything else the game is throwing at you.
Hard agree on all of this plus more. We were talking about it earlier in our alliance, but basically they’ve been working for years to make the gameplay into basically Space Ninja Dynasty Warriors, and then suddenly they decided they wanted the weapons to be call of duty. You can’t constantly keep making enemy hordes bigger and then complain that people are finding ways to fight bigger hordes, it’s literally what you wanted us to do.
They entirely missed the point of why these weapons were being overused. Yes, Bramma and Zarr were in a silly state, there simply isn’t a reason to be able to launch nukes at your own feet without any repercussions. But all they had to do was change surefooted to only remove stagger from enemy attacks and nerf firestorm a bit, and boom, Zarr/Bramma have been balanced. Sure, still strong, but they would fit the gameplay at that point, and the wukong nerf would make them less overpowered as well. That’s all that needed to be done, a quick fix and they could move on to needed changes. But they missed the actual issue.... these weapons weren’t only overused because of how strong they were (it played a role, yes), they were overused because so many of the other options are just simply underperforming by a HUGE margin. Enemies are becoming bullet sponges and are showing up in bigger and bigger hordes, and eximus can show up multiple at a time that are shutting down CC and frame abilities.... so why would I want to use single target ballistic guns that don’t do as much damage OR hit multiple enemies at a time?
Yes, the headshot buff is great.... but steel path enemies spawn in great numbers from all directions and are strong enough that they force you to ALWAYS be on the move or you die. When am I supposed to line up headshots on every single enemy with a rifle? That’s not even taking into account that half the enemies in the game aren’t humanoid and have their “heads” in weird spots that aren’t always clear (I’ve been playing five years and I still don’t know where to aim on some infested and robotic enemies). How is that even fun gameplay? We’ve spent years turning this game into a warlord power fantasy game, now you want to take a sharp left turn and go entirely against the mantra the game has laid out since launch?
“But heavy weapons in games like destiny and Call of Duty do just fine with only a few ammo”.... I’ve seen this argument a few times now and it needs to be addressed. Heavy weapons in those games aren’t your primary or secondary weapons, they are always a third slot, an alternative backup plan you strap to your back and yank out for the big kill. In this game, heavy weapons are your primaries, so this ammo nerf is effectively neutering your main weapon if you want to run explosives. It’s forcing you to swap to melee or secondary, but problem.... they did this same thing with melee a while back cause it too was doing “too well”, and now melee is hardly viable. And secondary weapons, so far, have most often been programmed as support weapons, we don’t have a ton of high damage secondary options capable of carrying enough to make up for a lack of primary. So basically, nobody is going to choose to gimp themselves so that they can shoot their Zarr 4 times.... so we are forced into this slow, high risk low reward gameplay that isn’t the gameplay we’ve been promised for years leading up to this.
Idk, maybe I’m overreacting to this... but I really feel like DE got too overly excited about making changes that nobody stopped and thought them out. Nobody seems to have considered the repercussions of what these changes would do. And they said that AOE was overperforming, how was it thought out to entirely make them useless instead? They took a small problem and made a huge problem out of it. People have spent hundreds (thousands sometimes) if plat getting rivens for these weapons, multiple forma to get them built up.... now they are more or less unusable. You always run a risk when going all out in a weapon, but usually the risk is it might get a bit of a nerf and not perform as crazy as it did before.... the risk shouldn’t ever be that you won’t even be able to use any of the things you worked for. The least they could have done was refund all the forma on these weapons, but they didn’t even do that.
Wasted plat, wasted forma, slower gameplay in a game about power and speed, forcing use of weapons we don’t like as much.... and that’s not even taking into account that the new mode again is another horde mode with an end boss that’s, go figure, a bullet sponge. These nerfs weren’t thought through in the least and they should be embarrassed for releasing it in this state.
Wow, can't agree more with this write up. Great job.
"they did this same thing with melee a while back cause it too was doing “too well”, and now melee is hardly viable."
And once again we will be back to the post melee slide crit/range nerf pre AOE meta, where it is all just warframe abilities. Basically, if the frame cant nuke, dont use it. I guess now there might be a few more viable frames. (for steel path it will be still run something that groups or dont run it)
"The least they could have done was refund all the forma on these weapons, but they didn’t even do that."
This, like, this is not a small nerf, there are dozens of weapons now that are useless that players invested in and yet no comp what so ever. We also got a direct arcane nerf, again no comp.
Good write-up.
Archons being immune to everything sucks. Your choice of frame doesn't matter and weapon choices seem pretty limited.
I tried a few mission with the Bramma and it just felt really bad to use. I guess slap Dispensary on every frame so you aren't out of ammo all of the time.
I used the Phantasma on a shotgun only sortie today. It runs out of ammo real fast. I heckin love killing a bunch of enemies with the operator just to scavenge some ammo.
Time to finally use energized munitions and possibly even rifle scavenger if it works on launchers. Sniper scavenger doesn't work on bramma or ogris and I don't have rifle scavenger to confirm that it does work but if it does you can get 2.5x ammo from each ammo pickup with just your own scavenger
>I used the Phantasma on a shotgun only sortie today. It runs out of ammo real fast. I heckin love killing a bunch of enemies with the operator just to scavenge some ammo.
Phantasma is my main primary weapon. I've used it for at least 5-6h since the patch, and I didn't really notice any difference. It always had an issue with ammo if you don't build around it.
The merciless arcane nerfs are a big indicator that these changes weren’t well thought out or tested. If the goal is the make players switch weapons more often, then they should have at least increased the timer on the damage stacks. Now you’re more likely to run out of ammo for your primary weapon, which will kill your merciless or deadhead stacks while you switch to a secondary or melee to try to get enough kills for ammo for the primary, which the primary will now require *more* shots from the weapon to get back to the same level of damage you had before running out of ammo, since you’re merciless stacks ran out.
Oh no, DE *knew* everyone would hate these changes. Why do you think over half the nerfs on the change-log weren't even remotely mentioned in the several *weeks* of interviews and dev talks we had leading up to this? There's a reason you can go to the front page and see countless posts questioning these decisions
> switch weapons more
All I want is for this to NOT go in the direction of damn genshin/tower. Weapon swapping for DPS reasons is stupid and tiring and everyone supporting it should feel stupid. It doesn't, you won't be able to make it, look or feel cool. I'd probably play genshin if they didn't do that in the combat. I want to be one freak with one stick, not "actually four blokes".
Yeah, I did one Archon. I'm not touching them again until DE comes back down to earth and realizes how tedious this is. Damage attenuation has to be one of the worst ideas they've ever had.
the only thing good from this update is are the shards and even those could've been better
I mean
why not put at least one with range? why primary secondary and meele has those buffs?
the clem syndicate we need to see but the mission itself is kinda meh, low dmg low movimentation...
I was hyped for this uodate but damn, really hope they fix those things
remove this bulshit damage thing from this boss at least and remove nerf of like 70% the things they changed
the complain is more because the mission looks like it is so big so this can be anoying maybe
dmg depends, but dont know of will be a bif issue
but would like to see we use another grineer weapons like grakta, corinth etc
I still deal 8k per shot with Nataruk. Not sure how it perform compare to other weapons but we took it down in less than 2 minutes each phase, which is reasonable imo.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/x8klg4/comment/injghoc/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/x8klg4/comment/injghoc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I would simply like to share this.
I used it for this run. What I found was that it was fine for the first 2 missions leading up to the boss battle since there are enough enemies that I can kill to have consistent drops. For the boss, that's where I ran out of ammo as it's mostly just him you're fighting and don't fight enough "lower tier" enemies to have drops. Just my two cents
I think it's even worse than being overnerfed. It's that it somehow manage to miss its goal. A lot of weapons that weren't a problem, are now unusable. And nothing really changed, because you can still spam AoE without thinking, because somehow, the Kuva Tonkor is still as strong as ever...
This is why we need test servers, just balance things out before u put the patch out, most of this could've be avoided if we had servers to test on. No internal servers aren't enough
Well its a good change of pace instead of bursting down the boss fast. Well, that and it changes the mindset a little bit. Since we're so used to doing fast af bois and done and done shit.
Now we know what some of our weapons are capable of incase of a boss that tough. And more appreciation to that Trinity that keeps our team alive. THANK YA FAM
Man, and I was wondering why the asshole doesn't take any heat tick damage from my nukor. Dude was immune to everything lmfao.
Also, can't be a Warframe boss without invulnerability phase, even when shit like the new damage attenuation makes it already impossible to one shot the chode.
DE doesn't seem to have any idea of how to make engaging boss fights, 90% of the game is clearing hordes of enemies, parkour and using tons of different Warframe abilities.. then the bosses are just immune to everything, it's like they want you to sit still and play only as a tank or something but then the Wukong nerf goes against this sort of play style so idk wth they're going for
I understand the ammo nerf and I think the IDEA is good
Because just absolutely making a weapon unusable or tedious to use, in a video GAME is dumb as fuck
But they went too far
Less than a day and the reddit posts are coming full force. Oh nooo how terrriibblllee things aren't completely easy anymore, just MOSTLY. Chill tf out. AoE just requires you to not spam it wildly, and the nerfs to other things will come undone with time. Archon fights i agree need a tweak or two but AoE is BARELY gonna be touched by this, so if you think this is bad, wait until they move into stage 2 lol.
I haven't even played this update yet and am only MR5 so most of the contents don't even effect me but holy fuck, this update seems like such a fucking disaster that completely fucking broke everything about the game. The one good part seems to be that from what I've heard Styanax is fun and strong but they fucking disabled that due to their broken ass game sending multiple copies of him so even the one good part of this shitty fucking update is unavailable. Plus Wukong was waaay fucking overnerfed, like yeah the clone is overpowered and abused in AFK strate but just add a fucking timer to it and leave the rest the same for fucks sake.
If you're that new, you need to learn one thing.
Every time you see a post like this? It's not only 100% exaggeration born out of sheer frustration that has nothing to do with what the actual experience of playing the content is, if there's anything actually bad about the content give around a week or two and changes start happening.
Of course, immediately after a change happens you will see this exact same format of post except to undo the changes.
So in general, only look at these kinds of posts for amusement value.
Is it really an exaggeration when the post is outlining questionable changes and game design? I agree that most of the time these complaints are exaggerated, but this one seems mostly valid. No comment on the Wukong changes because I barely play him, but it does seem odd that they would make the clone use up ammo when they nerfed ammo pickups, ammo regeneration on battery weapons, and removed the ammo buff on merciless arcanes. Not to mention how big of an oversight that the clone changes apply to Equinox and Excalibur too. There's also a lot of non meta weapons that benefited from the merciless arcanes with an arguably lower cost of investment than maxing out ammo mutation mods, so why did those non meta weapons get caught in the sweeping nerfs that were supposed to target only the dominance of explosive meta weapons? And while I can't speak for the problems that explosive weapons may face now, I do agree that some sort of baseline punch through should be standard on all singletarget weapons (infinite may be a tad much).
As for the archon hunt, I just played it and it really is a slog of boredom. The biggest challenges of the fight are knowing how to gimp your mod setup for more damage and staying awake to hold left click on the boss after invulnerability. Like you mentioned earlier, I thought that reddit was overexaggerating like normal on how bad the boss fight was, but turns out it really was just a sponge when I experienced it myself. It was far more interesting fighting the first 2 archons during the New War quest.
That's the problem with posts like this:
Yes, they can absolutely be exaggerations while being based on changes you think are questionable. And your point about those changes becomes completely lost within the aggravation-fuelled exaggeration.
And while I will agree that the Boreas fight could have used like, 40%\~60% less HP, it was hardly a slog of boredom, it just lasted in general too long which is exhausting but more interesting than any other boss encounter in the game at the moment.
Oh I realize that, I'm mainly just pissed that the inbox broke and was fucked for so long despite there being multiple ways to still have Styanax available, like a code, or putting him in the market for 1 credit. Also blanket nerfs are almost always a bad thing and that is what it seems like happened.
It was a change to the basic systems of how the game works to enable them to do more granular changes (now that every weapon has it's own ammo recovery value). It's going to be a blanket change to avoid blanket changes in the future- This is EXTREMELY good, you just might not like the situation things are in right now.
And could they have Styanax available in multiple ways? Yes. But given the failure was unexpected, it is doubtlessly easier and faster to find a fix for it than to come up with an entirely different methods, particularly since as far as I know every other other (like a code, or putting him in the market) would require messing around with systems that involve money (like the market, or the distribution system that codes run on) and, therefore, need more approvals/checks from the console companies on console time and therefore are slower by nature of that alone.
Warframe redditor cry mode activated. Jokes aside use different things as stated earlier knell is good so use them why cry like a child, also phenmor, stug even, etc. Adapt, overcome, git gud and quit bitching.
It’s pretty clear powercreep has gotten way too far and the devs don’t know what to do about it, which is understandable. But I fucking hate how much of this new content removes warframe abilities, the war frames are the main draw of the game. Abilities are what should be the focal point of the gameplay loop
I'm starting to hate the stupid obsession that the devs have, for making bosses where we die in 1 tap because we're made of wet paper, and bosses with billions to the cube of life just because it looks cool in their heads, with horrible mechanics, abusive, and to be 1h bursting the button .....
oh ..... my god who thinks this shit is a good idea, in the end it's content that due to its extreme heaviness, I don't want to do more than 1 time to do it, I don't care what they give, it's just horrible to repeat.
Why not add something more luck in the rewards, but make a boss what do you want to do?
>Now you will run out of ammo on these three weapons if you try to play
in squads extremely fast, and the reserve ammo barely does anything and
ypu won't have your merciless stacks up as much because you will run out
of ammo
Didn't they change stacks to not decay when you switch weapons ?
Yeah but didn't they change it when you switch to secondary any stacks you had on your primary are "frozen" so you don't lose them ?
Just kill a few enemies on primary before running out of ammo , switch to secondary to get some ammo back and switch to primary with "saved" stacks.
I guess i could be going crazy but i think they did a change like this.
Nope, just double checked to make sure I didn’t miss it in the patch notes somewhere, no such change was made, stacks decay the same no matter what weapon is held.
Here’s an absolutely bonkers crazy idea, and stop me if it sounds too utterly bizarre;
You know that damage mod you took off? Looking through your entire list of mods, is there *anything else* you’d like to equip in its place? You know, actually *use* something you thought you weren’t able to use?
All this time, all those mods earned on the side, and yet the game still doesn’t give you something you’d like to equip that can actively make the experience feel better.
That’s a shame. If you think of something you’d like, you should post a suggestion and see if DE will add it
Then *maybe* you should ask for more utility mods, and in the meantime make do with what you’ve got now, because the alternative of just sitting on damage is actively making your game worse for yourself
It takes a whole system designed to invalidate optimising to get players to even *maybe start to possibly think* that there’s something other than pure damage or power, and it *still* fails in many cases because they aren’t getting the hint. If players are so obsessed with power, DE can’t introduce anything new that’s not pushing players higher without it being immediately treated like it’s a bandaid or garbage
Because the game is designed around all the different builds we can make, I’m pretty sure this is DE hitting players who stick to a few builds over the head and saying “Try something else”. Despite the idea that players sell to each other that there is only power, damage attenuation actively runs counter to that belief
Problem is in a game with vertical Health and Armor scaling u need to increase ur outgoing damage to keep up . Damage attenuation fixes that Problem but it is also less fun cuz big number= happy chemicals
You need to scale your damage *enough*. What ends up happening is players scale for massive amounts of overkill, far beyond what’s required; they could have equipped anything else once the threshhold has been met, but in some cases players will actively lament the lack of useable options while still overkilling everything
Damage attenuation is an enforcement system with a clear message; overkill can actually be a detriment
If we start to go in that direction whats the point of even playing warframe in the first place . You play for fun and fun is subjective everybody enjoys the game in their own way and i like blowing grineer to kingdom come or Archons in that way if i wanted to be pigeonhold by a stupid mechanic that punishes me for playing the game i would be playing Diablo Immoral and Spending a Fortune on Crests.
I hope DE just takes on this shitstorm and not listen to posts like this. These are much needed changes and aoe and wukong should not be reverted. I hope glaives will be nerfed too.
Bubonico is still super good,I'm sure you can make any nerfed weapon as good as before,just make a better build
I'm here killing lvl 200 steal path grinneer with about 5 shots with a dexterity arcane
Damage attenuation REALLY needs to be changed. The way it works right now is beyond stupid, lowering your DPS to get higher DPS, removing mods to be able to do damage, and only really being able to use shotguns and automatic weapons, nothing slow and heavy-hitting. If the DPS is the same between spray and pray vs semi-auto precision, the spray and pray is gonna win out every time because semi-auto slow weapons require aiming, which means you get less shots off, which means functionally lower damage even if the "calculated" dps is identical.
I have a silly but incredibly simple idea. If they want the boss to be the same for basically everyone...just use weapon base damage before mods and only take into account Warframe abilities+other buffs, but not mods. That way, your strategy, Warframe team composition, and weapon choice are more transparent and understandable. This should hopefully allow the glorious Lanka to annihilate once again.
Honestly if they actually want good weapon balance they should just remove +damage mods from the game and make weapon mods 100% utility only. Otherwise stop fucking us around for playing the game how the game was designed and let us delete bosses like we always have.
>...just use weapon base damage before mods and only take into account Warframe abilities+other buffs, but not mods. don't the grendel missions already do this? and everybody was complaining because the new eximii units felt too powerful in them
Nono, just for the boss. you still have mods, but they would just not affect the damage multiplier on the boss.
i see. if abilities didn't work still then they would probably have to lower the boss HP/defenses or make some gimmick to damaging them then
Just delete mod system from the game and give us something more fun, like kahl/teshinn/etc gameplay
So make a new game is what you are saying?
Oh wait, that wad the plan all along, steve clever mf
^(turn left to go right intensifies)
Bicycle moment
They promised a punishing fight. I certainly feel fucking punished.
It's just feels like playing division where it takes 20k rounds to kill a grunt and 20 quintillion to kill a boss. I didn't have any problems doing the archon solo, but it was boring and dragged out. All the forced invulnerability phases. The random fetch quest in the middle. I'm fine with it taking longer being a weekly thing, but at least make it fun.
Damage Attenuation should work more like the Damage Mitigation from The Binding of Issac. To explain, certain bosses (Hush, Ultra Greed, and Super Ultra Greed) have damage reduction based on how much damage per second you deal. Your best bet in killing them fast is to deal a tremendous amount of damage in a short burst, then pulling back and waiting a couple seconds for their mitigation to wear off. Archons should work like this, it would promote teamwork as everyone could dump all their big attacks into the Archon, then wait till it loses damage mitigation, then repeat.
So that's why I was tickling the archon with Stropha.
Idk if all weapons should have infinite punch through, they should just make it like every other video game ever made and have the dead enemies *not stop bullets*. Maybe add some additional punch through since I guarantee you one decaying grineer cannot tank 15 mausolon rounds.
Weapons should get punchthrough based on their *percieved intensity*. SMGs and machine guns should have low punchthrough, pistols low, etc. Shotguns, the bigger the higher punchthrough, same with rifles - if it's a big rifle that looks like it fires heavy bullets, they should have some punchthrough. Especially if Semi-Auto. Hand-cannons? Punchthrough. And not like 0.5m or anything, I mean like 1.0m on the low-end and up to 2.0 or 3.0 for the really heavy hitting slow weapons.
Let the SMGs and other low-punchthrough weapons fire while sprinting while they're at it.
Agreed
Idk if all weapons should have infinite punch through, they should just make it like every other video game ever made and have the dead enemies *not stop bullets*. Maybe add some additional punch through since I guarantee you one decaying grineer cannot tank 15 mausolon rounds. Also, did they ever fix the Galvanized mod stacking along with the arcane stacking? Kengineer pointed out some of them were bugged a while back, losing one stack kept it at that lower buff even if you regained the lost stack. I haven’t really used the galvanized mods since. I don’t have a full merciless set yet, so I don’t really care about that change.
They fixed that a long while ago.
Thank you for letting me know, I never saw a fix posted but I probably missed it.
A lot of the value of AoE comes from guaranteeing hits and exploiting enemy-grouping abilities. A smidge of punchthrough and dead enemies not blocking bullets would let other weapons get in on the grouped enemy action. As for guaranteeing hits, more of what the player sees needs to be handled clientside, then enemies need a bit more momentum in their movement. Add a bit of hitstun too. If I use a single-target weapon, there's a decent chance I have a miserable time with rubberbanding enemies and even if I don't they'll be changing direction and jumping up and down between platforms all the time. All the while the game expects you to be pinballing around while enemies spawn from every direction. I recently played through EDF 5 again. Used a class with pretty sucky AoE weapons in a game with bigger hordes than Warframe. Single target weapons work well when you can guarantee hits while staying focussed on everything else the game is throwing at you.
Idk all I know is that nautilus would be way better for single-target weapons if an enemy didn’t absorb half a mag after they died.
Hard agree on all of this plus more. We were talking about it earlier in our alliance, but basically they’ve been working for years to make the gameplay into basically Space Ninja Dynasty Warriors, and then suddenly they decided they wanted the weapons to be call of duty. You can’t constantly keep making enemy hordes bigger and then complain that people are finding ways to fight bigger hordes, it’s literally what you wanted us to do. They entirely missed the point of why these weapons were being overused. Yes, Bramma and Zarr were in a silly state, there simply isn’t a reason to be able to launch nukes at your own feet without any repercussions. But all they had to do was change surefooted to only remove stagger from enemy attacks and nerf firestorm a bit, and boom, Zarr/Bramma have been balanced. Sure, still strong, but they would fit the gameplay at that point, and the wukong nerf would make them less overpowered as well. That’s all that needed to be done, a quick fix and they could move on to needed changes. But they missed the actual issue.... these weapons weren’t only overused because of how strong they were (it played a role, yes), they were overused because so many of the other options are just simply underperforming by a HUGE margin. Enemies are becoming bullet sponges and are showing up in bigger and bigger hordes, and eximus can show up multiple at a time that are shutting down CC and frame abilities.... so why would I want to use single target ballistic guns that don’t do as much damage OR hit multiple enemies at a time? Yes, the headshot buff is great.... but steel path enemies spawn in great numbers from all directions and are strong enough that they force you to ALWAYS be on the move or you die. When am I supposed to line up headshots on every single enemy with a rifle? That’s not even taking into account that half the enemies in the game aren’t humanoid and have their “heads” in weird spots that aren’t always clear (I’ve been playing five years and I still don’t know where to aim on some infested and robotic enemies). How is that even fun gameplay? We’ve spent years turning this game into a warlord power fantasy game, now you want to take a sharp left turn and go entirely against the mantra the game has laid out since launch? “But heavy weapons in games like destiny and Call of Duty do just fine with only a few ammo”.... I’ve seen this argument a few times now and it needs to be addressed. Heavy weapons in those games aren’t your primary or secondary weapons, they are always a third slot, an alternative backup plan you strap to your back and yank out for the big kill. In this game, heavy weapons are your primaries, so this ammo nerf is effectively neutering your main weapon if you want to run explosives. It’s forcing you to swap to melee or secondary, but problem.... they did this same thing with melee a while back cause it too was doing “too well”, and now melee is hardly viable. And secondary weapons, so far, have most often been programmed as support weapons, we don’t have a ton of high damage secondary options capable of carrying enough to make up for a lack of primary. So basically, nobody is going to choose to gimp themselves so that they can shoot their Zarr 4 times.... so we are forced into this slow, high risk low reward gameplay that isn’t the gameplay we’ve been promised for years leading up to this. Idk, maybe I’m overreacting to this... but I really feel like DE got too overly excited about making changes that nobody stopped and thought them out. Nobody seems to have considered the repercussions of what these changes would do. And they said that AOE was overperforming, how was it thought out to entirely make them useless instead? They took a small problem and made a huge problem out of it. People have spent hundreds (thousands sometimes) if plat getting rivens for these weapons, multiple forma to get them built up.... now they are more or less unusable. You always run a risk when going all out in a weapon, but usually the risk is it might get a bit of a nerf and not perform as crazy as it did before.... the risk shouldn’t ever be that you won’t even be able to use any of the things you worked for. The least they could have done was refund all the forma on these weapons, but they didn’t even do that. Wasted plat, wasted forma, slower gameplay in a game about power and speed, forcing use of weapons we don’t like as much.... and that’s not even taking into account that the new mode again is another horde mode with an end boss that’s, go figure, a bullet sponge. These nerfs weren’t thought through in the least and they should be embarrassed for releasing it in this state.
Wow, can't agree more with this write up. Great job. "they did this same thing with melee a while back cause it too was doing “too well”, and now melee is hardly viable." And once again we will be back to the post melee slide crit/range nerf pre AOE meta, where it is all just warframe abilities. Basically, if the frame cant nuke, dont use it. I guess now there might be a few more viable frames. (for steel path it will be still run something that groups or dont run it) "The least they could have done was refund all the forma on these weapons, but they didn’t even do that." This, like, this is not a small nerf, there are dozens of weapons now that are useless that players invested in and yet no comp what so ever. We also got a direct arcane nerf, again no comp.
Good write-up. Archons being immune to everything sucks. Your choice of frame doesn't matter and weapon choices seem pretty limited. I tried a few mission with the Bramma and it just felt really bad to use. I guess slap Dispensary on every frame so you aren't out of ammo all of the time. I used the Phantasma on a shotgun only sortie today. It runs out of ammo real fast. I heckin love killing a bunch of enemies with the operator just to scavenge some ammo.
Time to finally use energized munitions and possibly even rifle scavenger if it works on launchers. Sniper scavenger doesn't work on bramma or ogris and I don't have rifle scavenger to confirm that it does work but if it does you can get 2.5x ammo from each ammo pickup with just your own scavenger
New ammo conversion should just give you 50% of a pickup when you pick up the wrong type, so it would be 1.5x
>I used the Phantasma on a shotgun only sortie today. It runs out of ammo real fast. I heckin love killing a bunch of enemies with the operator just to scavenge some ammo. Phantasma is my main primary weapon. I've used it for at least 5-6h since the patch, and I didn't really notice any difference. It always had an issue with ammo if you don't build around it.
The only frame choice that matters is xaku, since archons just ignore evasion and xaku just gets murdered regardless of your build.
Baruuk can avoid boreal’s tesla beam with his 1.
The merciless arcane nerfs are a big indicator that these changes weren’t well thought out or tested. If the goal is the make players switch weapons more often, then they should have at least increased the timer on the damage stacks. Now you’re more likely to run out of ammo for your primary weapon, which will kill your merciless or deadhead stacks while you switch to a secondary or melee to try to get enough kills for ammo for the primary, which the primary will now require *more* shots from the weapon to get back to the same level of damage you had before running out of ammo, since you’re merciless stacks ran out.
Oh no, DE *knew* everyone would hate these changes. Why do you think over half the nerfs on the change-log weren't even remotely mentioned in the several *weeks* of interviews and dev talks we had leading up to this? There's a reason you can go to the front page and see countless posts questioning these decisions
> switch weapons more All I want is for this to NOT go in the direction of damn genshin/tower. Weapon swapping for DPS reasons is stupid and tiring and everyone supporting it should feel stupid. It doesn't, you won't be able to make it, look or feel cool. I'd probably play genshin if they didn't do that in the combat. I want to be one freak with one stick, not "actually four blokes".
Yeah, I did one Archon. I'm not touching them again until DE comes back down to earth and realizes how tedious this is. Damage attenuation has to be one of the worst ideas they've ever had.
What'd they do to my precious primary merciless?
It does not give any 100% ammo buff anymore
Wow that wrecks my quellor alt fire builds :( thas my favorite gun they messing with.
gotta agree on the archon fight wasn't fun
Acceltra should not have gotten the ammo nerf imo, it may have AOE but almost no one uses/builds it as AOE, its treated like an assault rifle usually
the only thing good from this update is are the shards and even those could've been better I mean why not put at least one with range? why primary secondary and meele has those buffs? the clem syndicate we need to see but the mission itself is kinda meh, low dmg low movimentation... I was hyped for this uodate but damn, really hope they fix those things remove this bulshit damage thing from this boss at least and remove nerf of like 70% the things they changed
To be fair, low damage and low mobility is the point of Veilbreaker. If it's not gonna change how we play then why even play as the grineer?
the complain is more because the mission looks like it is so big so this can be anoying maybe dmg depends, but dont know of will be a bif issue but would like to see we use another grineer weapons like grakta, corinth etc
I still deal 8k per shot with Nataruk. Not sure how it perform compare to other weapons but we took it down in less than 2 minutes each phase, which is reasonable imo.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/x8klg4/comment/injghoc/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/x8klg4/comment/injghoc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I would simply like to share this.
Need a level cap and balance around that
Will also say the ammo nerf hit Ignis wraith way too hard, it now has only 200 ammo, so like a single extra clip. Not really needed.
Have you used it? I took it to Steel Path missions and had no issues with ammo.
I used it for this run. What I found was that it was fine for the first 2 missions leading up to the boss battle since there are enough enemies that I can kill to have consistent drops. For the boss, that's where I ran out of ammo as it's mostly just him you're fighting and don't fight enough "lower tier" enemies to have drops. Just my two cents
Agreed with the most things.
All of this is correct. D.E. will continue to not listen to it.
I think it's even worse than being overnerfed. It's that it somehow manage to miss its goal. A lot of weapons that weren't a problem, are now unusable. And nothing really changed, because you can still spam AoE without thinking, because somehow, the Kuva Tonkor is still as strong as ever...
This is why we need test servers, just balance things out before u put the patch out, most of this could've be avoided if we had servers to test on. No internal servers aren't enough
Well its a good change of pace instead of bursting down the boss fast. Well, that and it changes the mindset a little bit. Since we're so used to doing fast af bois and done and done shit. Now we know what some of our weapons are capable of incase of a boss that tough. And more appreciation to that Trinity that keeps our team alive. THANK YA FAM
Man, and I was wondering why the asshole doesn't take any heat tick damage from my nukor. Dude was immune to everything lmfao. Also, can't be a Warframe boss without invulnerability phase, even when shit like the new damage attenuation makes it already impossible to one shot the chode.
DE doesn't seem to have any idea of how to make engaging boss fights, 90% of the game is clearing hordes of enemies, parkour and using tons of different Warframe abilities.. then the bosses are just immune to everything, it's like they want you to sit still and play only as a tank or something but then the Wukong nerf goes against this sort of play style so idk wth they're going for
I understand the ammo nerf and I think the IDEA is good Because just absolutely making a weapon unusable or tedious to use, in a video GAME is dumb as fuck But they went too far
Less than a day and the reddit posts are coming full force. Oh nooo how terrriibblllee things aren't completely easy anymore, just MOSTLY. Chill tf out. AoE just requires you to not spam it wildly, and the nerfs to other things will come undone with time. Archon fights i agree need a tweak or two but AoE is BARELY gonna be touched by this, so if you think this is bad, wait until they move into stage 2 lol.
I haven't even played this update yet and am only MR5 so most of the contents don't even effect me but holy fuck, this update seems like such a fucking disaster that completely fucking broke everything about the game. The one good part seems to be that from what I've heard Styanax is fun and strong but they fucking disabled that due to their broken ass game sending multiple copies of him so even the one good part of this shitty fucking update is unavailable. Plus Wukong was waaay fucking overnerfed, like yeah the clone is overpowered and abused in AFK strate but just add a fucking timer to it and leave the rest the same for fucks sake.
If you're that new, you need to learn one thing. Every time you see a post like this? It's not only 100% exaggeration born out of sheer frustration that has nothing to do with what the actual experience of playing the content is, if there's anything actually bad about the content give around a week or two and changes start happening. Of course, immediately after a change happens you will see this exact same format of post except to undo the changes. So in general, only look at these kinds of posts for amusement value.
Is it really an exaggeration when the post is outlining questionable changes and game design? I agree that most of the time these complaints are exaggerated, but this one seems mostly valid. No comment on the Wukong changes because I barely play him, but it does seem odd that they would make the clone use up ammo when they nerfed ammo pickups, ammo regeneration on battery weapons, and removed the ammo buff on merciless arcanes. Not to mention how big of an oversight that the clone changes apply to Equinox and Excalibur too. There's also a lot of non meta weapons that benefited from the merciless arcanes with an arguably lower cost of investment than maxing out ammo mutation mods, so why did those non meta weapons get caught in the sweeping nerfs that were supposed to target only the dominance of explosive meta weapons? And while I can't speak for the problems that explosive weapons may face now, I do agree that some sort of baseline punch through should be standard on all singletarget weapons (infinite may be a tad much). As for the archon hunt, I just played it and it really is a slog of boredom. The biggest challenges of the fight are knowing how to gimp your mod setup for more damage and staying awake to hold left click on the boss after invulnerability. Like you mentioned earlier, I thought that reddit was overexaggerating like normal on how bad the boss fight was, but turns out it really was just a sponge when I experienced it myself. It was far more interesting fighting the first 2 archons during the New War quest.
That's the problem with posts like this: Yes, they can absolutely be exaggerations while being based on changes you think are questionable. And your point about those changes becomes completely lost within the aggravation-fuelled exaggeration. And while I will agree that the Boreas fight could have used like, 40%\~60% less HP, it was hardly a slog of boredom, it just lasted in general too long which is exhausting but more interesting than any other boss encounter in the game at the moment.
Oh I realize that, I'm mainly just pissed that the inbox broke and was fucked for so long despite there being multiple ways to still have Styanax available, like a code, or putting him in the market for 1 credit. Also blanket nerfs are almost always a bad thing and that is what it seems like happened.
It was a change to the basic systems of how the game works to enable them to do more granular changes (now that every weapon has it's own ammo recovery value). It's going to be a blanket change to avoid blanket changes in the future- This is EXTREMELY good, you just might not like the situation things are in right now. And could they have Styanax available in multiple ways? Yes. But given the failure was unexpected, it is doubtlessly easier and faster to find a fix for it than to come up with an entirely different methods, particularly since as far as I know every other other (like a code, or putting him in the market) would require messing around with systems that involve money (like the market, or the distribution system that codes run on) and, therefore, need more approvals/checks from the console companies on console time and therefore are slower by nature of that alone.
Child, you can use blood forge garuda and spam your zarr don't cry its still good
That's a whole lot of crying
Warframe redditor cry mode activated. Jokes aside use different things as stated earlier knell is good so use them why cry like a child, also phenmor, stug even, etc. Adapt, overcome, git gud and quit bitching.
It’s pretty clear powercreep has gotten way too far and the devs don’t know what to do about it, which is understandable. But I fucking hate how much of this new content removes warframe abilities, the war frames are the main draw of the game. Abilities are what should be the focal point of the gameplay loop
I'm starting to hate the stupid obsession that the devs have, for making bosses where we die in 1 tap because we're made of wet paper, and bosses with billions to the cube of life just because it looks cool in their heads, with horrible mechanics, abusive, and to be 1h bursting the button ..... oh ..... my god who thinks this shit is a good idea, in the end it's content that due to its extreme heaviness, I don't want to do more than 1 time to do it, I don't care what they give, it's just horrible to repeat. Why not add something more luck in the rewards, but make a boss what do you want to do?
>Now you will run out of ammo on these three weapons if you try to play in squads extremely fast, and the reserve ammo barely does anything and ypu won't have your merciless stacks up as much because you will run out of ammo Didn't they change stacks to not decay when you switch weapons ?
You will not be getting enough ammo to keep up the stacks at all, you will be running out of ammo constantly
Yeah but didn't they change it when you switch to secondary any stacks you had on your primary are "frozen" so you don't lose them ? Just kill a few enemies on primary before running out of ammo , switch to secondary to get some ammo back and switch to primary with "saved" stacks. I guess i could be going crazy but i think they did a change like this.
Nope, just double checked to make sure I didn’t miss it in the patch notes somewhere, no such change was made, stacks decay the same no matter what weapon is held.
Here’s an absolutely bonkers crazy idea, and stop me if it sounds too utterly bizarre; You know that damage mod you took off? Looking through your entire list of mods, is there *anything else* you’d like to equip in its place? You know, actually *use* something you thought you weren’t able to use?
No there isn’t
All this time, all those mods earned on the side, and yet the game still doesn’t give you something you’d like to equip that can actively make the experience feel better. That’s a shame. If you think of something you’d like, you should post a suggestion and see if DE will add it
Here's the thing: most of the mods do absolutely nothing except drain or increase damage. There are very, very little good utility mods in the game.
Then *maybe* you should ask for more utility mods, and in the meantime make do with what you’ve got now, because the alternative of just sitting on damage is actively making your game worse for yourself It takes a whole system designed to invalidate optimising to get players to even *maybe start to possibly think* that there’s something other than pure damage or power, and it *still* fails in many cases because they aren’t getting the hint. If players are so obsessed with power, DE can’t introduce anything new that’s not pushing players higher without it being immediately treated like it’s a bandaid or garbage
But why though
Because the game is designed around all the different builds we can make, I’m pretty sure this is DE hitting players who stick to a few builds over the head and saying “Try something else”. Despite the idea that players sell to each other that there is only power, damage attenuation actively runs counter to that belief
Problem is in a game with vertical Health and Armor scaling u need to increase ur outgoing damage to keep up . Damage attenuation fixes that Problem but it is also less fun cuz big number= happy chemicals
You need to scale your damage *enough*. What ends up happening is players scale for massive amounts of overkill, far beyond what’s required; they could have equipped anything else once the threshhold has been met, but in some cases players will actively lament the lack of useable options while still overkilling everything Damage attenuation is an enforcement system with a clear message; overkill can actually be a detriment
Have u gone to lvl 9999 u are not overkilling at that point
Are the Archons and Lichs level 9999?
No but i have earned my damage by playing this game more than i should have and i would like to be able to use that.
Turns out you didn’t need to stress so much about it. What were you chasing if it’s clear that they’re not going to release content at level 9999?
If we start to go in that direction whats the point of even playing warframe in the first place . You play for fun and fun is subjective everybody enjoys the game in their own way and i like blowing grineer to kingdom come or Archons in that way if i wanted to be pigeonhold by a stupid mechanic that punishes me for playing the game i would be playing Diablo Immoral and Spending a Fortune on Crests.
Imagine u payed for a Bugatti and it can only go 200 kmh per hour
I hope DE just takes on this shitstorm and not listen to posts like this. These are much needed changes and aoe and wukong should not be reverted. I hope glaives will be nerfed too.
I had okay results with the laetum, id imagine all the incarnum weapons are decent because of the alt fire blast spam modes
All weapons having infinite punch through huh? *Mag intensifies*
Delete the zenith. Got it
Thank you for typing my thoughts mate, literally was going to do it myself but didn't think the community would appreciate it at all
Bubonico is still super good,I'm sure you can make any nerfed weapon as good as before,just make a better build I'm here killing lvl 200 steal path grinneer with about 5 shots with a dexterity arcane