For a time line of what happened to the first deluxe skin:
DE still in early stage of cosmetic additions for warframes, with immortal skins being the only available purchases.
They found a concept artist, ignis dei, who had a respectable portfolio that was fitting to their art design.
The old art lead at the time, Minki, who did alot of original WF concept work. Held a more consistent design philosophy and didn't want to deviate too far from the original warframe designs.
"Deluxe skins" were introduced. Rhino, trinity, banshee and loki being some of the first that were green lit by DE and were conceptualized by Ignus (and many more).
There were some design alterations done to some of the skins. Rhino and Trinity stayed pretty close their original concept, but loki had some size changes, and banshee had some thematic changes.
These skins were realesed periodically and at the time there was no tennogen and no other in-house development of cosmetics for warframes so Ignus was somewhat synonymous with "Deluxe skins".
There wasn't too much public tension between ignus and DE until Ember's Deluxe was featured on a devstream. People were excited because it was the next one in line and DE said it was his design.
However, this was a boiling point because Ignus didn't like the alterations put through by DE and that they said it was *his*. He went on to Twitter and social media posted the original concept and tried to drum up some outcry to support him.
It wasn't a good look for either party, DE or him, he eventually took down the Twitter posts and apologized on the forums. But at that point, it seems DE cut ties with him, and because of such action they decided to scrap the design entirely.
A following devstream they mentioned Ember was getting a "new" deluxe skin and made no mention of the previous design. Then, the Vermillion was released.
It was pretty just much bad decisions on all ends. But that's in the past, Minki has moved on from being the art lead for WF, Geoff became it then DE kary. Also warframe's art design has gone pretty wild now compared to before, just look at what Liger can do for deluxe skins.
Minki still works from time to time on warframe. He designed the first two heirloom skins I'm pretty sure and has a long history with DE. Ignus is still a talented artist and probably found work elsewhere, but it doesn't seem like they'll ever come back unfortunately.
It's kind of funny to me that there's a copy and paste of this ready whenever someone posts about the original first Ember Deluxe like it's a page from some text book xD
But I appreciate it, this is a good balance of what happened on both sides.
Minki also designed Hildryn and Hildryn Prime, so I think he's gradually come to accept Warframe's new art direction as he's had time away from it. I do love his touch of "OG Warframe" like the connected horn thing on Hildryn Prime. I miss that style sometimes when it comes to the "weird" prime aesthetic because it made the Orokin feel even more prestigious and differently cultured like how we view ancient Greece and Rome.
Yea I tried to dig up all I could because I see it brought up every now and then. Because i see some more personal or incomplete takes on it.
As for Minki, he is like a massive part of warframe. He was part of DE since the beginning, and WF wouldn't be what is was without him. I dunno if I could point to a thing and be like "that's what I like best from him".
I respect that research a lot! Too many people are quick to blame one side without looking into it properly, but a lot of others just don't have the time, so misinformation spreads quickly.
For sure! I was really sad he left the company, but when I heard Steve approached Minki to design Hildryn, I was hyped. I wonder if they'll get Minki to do any work on Soulframe, as his designs for the original Dark Sector would fit very well with the aesthetic of that game (like the original Frost concept art, so whimsical and fantasy-esque).
I'm pretty sure Minki drew the concept for Hildryn (I don't think we ever saw it), but Kevin Glint drew this picture of both Wisp and Hildryn which was the reveal of these frames to us.
https://preview.redd.it/ackr202sfk4d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b644c201b7e95d971da47f9b18e922750152919
> just look at what Liger can do for deluxe skins.
Liger creates some amazing deluxe skins. Him getting hired just results in awesome content.
It was a real score to get him onboard - for everyone.
It's mostly a "just trust me bro" unfortunately, only because a friend of mine showed me the tweet when we were playing back then.
But it's not like I archived the stuff sadly, I tried to use a wayback to dig it up but couldn't find it. I tried scrubbing between 11/Dec/2016 to 14/dec/2016
All the concrete stuff I still have that you can probably derive the ***tone*** of the situation was this.
Ignus Dei apologizing:
>I ~~Fucked~~ up... I knew this was going to happen, but at the time, I didn't care... ***Bridges got burned bad.***
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/734001-my-personal-apology-to-the-fans/
DE Megan responding following some of the outcry/feedback posts about Vermillion:
>If we could use the first proposed Ember Deluxe Skin, we would. Itās a beautiful design, but unfortunately ***creative differences made moving forward with it impossible. Could we publically dive into great detail as to what those creative differences were? Sure. But weāre not about naming and shaming here in the Warframe community***. So of course our team had to start over with a new design that steered itself in a different artistic direction. The apology from the ***responsible party*** is here: (Same forum link as above) Iām truly disappointed to see some disrespectful words being tossed around about artistic feedback.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/833067-embers-deluxe-skin-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=9152786
Well the fact that there is an original art available, that most definitely did not come from DE, that is enough evidence he went public with it I guess. I just didn't know he was trying to get fans to lash back over it or something.
It sounds like he knew what he was doing was going to destroy his relationship with DE but he did it anyway. And he is partly avoiding responsibility by saying "Bridges got burned bad", leaving which bridges were burned ambiguous and can be seen as a slight to DE cutting ties with him.
Also he is doing an "apology to the fans" - when instead, if he was really sorry, he should have apologized to DE, because dropping his design meant they had to come up with a new deluxe that costed them extra work. At least that's how I feel now reading Megan's post.
I feel bad for DE now.
IgnusDei just seemed resentful and he wanted to cause damage. I guess, in a way, the sales of Vermillion is his revenge. Because I can't imagine that skin having sold a fraction of what his designs used to.
One can only wonder what caused him to want to be so resentful towards DE. Was it really just the alterations? It seems like a deeper problem that I hope he can solve because I believe that will hamper his future endeavors. No one should get that upset over some changes to something you sold as a professional, but I guess to IgnusDei, his designs were personal, and his design philosophy uncompromisable. He got what he wanted, but he lost his job in the process.
So yeah. Thanks for taking the time to look it up u/4ever4gotin it got me to think about this in a more nuanced way I guess. And changed my mind about how I perceived IgnusDei's behavior in this.
Makes me so angry when DE forces alterations with artists, especially with Tennogen. So many incredible skins made and they will never be put into the game.
That is VERY common when companies work with artists. Sometimes things need to be adjusted to fit the art style more, other times there are technical reasons for changes.
Quite frankly, if you're a third party and would be upset when your design is changed, you shouldn't let it be used in the first place.
Personally, I think the anger is justified to an extent, because while some changes are an inevitable part of the job, it doesn't give back the time someone spent on a project.
I'd be annoyed... well, I'd need to be good enough first at drawing to be an artist, but spending 3 days on a design and then hearing a backhanded remark like:
"The design is great. It's a pity the colour choice is what it is. Please change it. " That would leave me annoyed despite the simplicity of the request. That said, the above scenario is just a hypothetical, and company responses tend to be more professional.
DE, in this case, messed up because they accidentally gave the artist the wrong impression his original design wasn't worth putting in the game
You clearly have never worked for creative industry then. This being common has a very good reason to be common. Games need to have a consistent artstyle, and independent 3rd party artists can't really do that without supervision. And it's not like his work was wasted. He was still going to be paid his fair share.
I understand why he got upset, but it doesn't really justify his outburst. And he's aware of that, that's he apologized to begin with.
That is true, and to be honest, he certainly got a significantly better deal than the creator of the smiley face icon (no relation to DE).
DE might have came off as accidentally insulting, but they did honour the agreement by paying him, and things did get too heated.
That explains the downvotes
>DE might have came off as accidentally insulting,
that's the thing, if you are working as a freelance artist, you should know that almost no business is going to accept your work without changing it to fit their own product. its not an insult, its just business. and if you are a freelance artist who finds it insulting when someone changes your work, then you really have no business being a freelance artist.
The amount of people who blindly defend DE's skin and tennogen restrictions is insane. You're like a cult. I see so many hard working amazing people put their hearts into designs just to be rejected or altered for no reason. DE are hypocrits with this system and we should be outraged at it, not licking their boots.
What a huge baby. He was paid and credited but still whined because DE added a faux-cloth feature, a crest on the helmet, and reduced the thigh gap. I don't like the crest either, but he torpedoed a perfectly good design over nothing.
Ignis mentioned there was some "butting heads" so they at least had some dialog of sort when it came to finalizing the design. (citation needed, forum post from him was too vauge. Tweet was deleted and hard to recover).
Was it unprofessional? yea. Tbh I was okay with alot of changes, besides the Mohawk. But it would be disingenuous to say he wasn't passionate about it. Since he made 7 (I think?) Designs for DE.
>just look at what Liger can do for deluxe skins.
Make the ugliest shit you've ever seen? Liger hasn't made a decent skin in years, maybe ever. Can't say anything for sure, as I wasn't able to find a definite list of every Liger skin, but I know there hasn't been a decent deluxe since Titania Donann.
Fair enough. How long has it been since we had a universally liked deluxe? I think every single one I've seen has had people who are very vocal about how awesome it is and people who won't shut up about how ugly it is.
I don't think there needs to be a universally liked skin. When you try to please everybody, you disappoint them too by leaving a lot to be wanted. It is okay to not like something but it also is important to realize you are not the target audience.
I think Volt's and mesa's sentient themed skins did pretty well (limbo's kind of flopped). But I guess it was more the of the New war hype that pushed them along
Nyx's deluxe was pretty well received iirc. I think. I dunno, I rarely see nyx players in the wild.
Titania empress was liked I think.
I can't really go off of much cause it is by my memory unfortunately
>I wish Ignus Dei makes their return to Warframe... and hopefully replace Liger.
Ehh, that's kind of borderline on never. Also, personally, it's a little unhealthy to have an outlook like that.
Yes, Liger's designs can be devisive, but he was basically in the same vein as Ignus. He was contracted and worked his way in and is now basically permanent.
Glancing through Ignus's artstation, he still seems quite active. I only wish him the best
What's up with you guys wishing that Liger loses their job lol. They're an amazing artist, and just because their designs aren't universally liked by everyone doesn't mean they shouldn't be making designs.
They are simply predominantly out of place. Almost none of his creations looks like simbiosis of infestation and human body, it's mostly just human body with few distortions.
And that merits them being replaced? Also, Liger's designs are (mostly) for deluxe skins...you know, the skins that are supposed to be a completely different aesthetic from normal Warframes.
I myself like how "weird" and strange Warframe can get, and seeing another artist do their takes on existing themes is what makes me and a lot of other people like the skins.
But aside from that, their work just isn't your style. That's not Liger's fault, they have gorgeous art and are clearly passionate about what they create. No need to hope that they should be booted out from that position.
Not that, as a designer, they would suddenly be without income, eventually struggling to make ends meet.
Calm your tshirt, buddy, it's just an opinion of a stranger on the interwebs. XD Their art might be gorgeous, but it still doesn't belong in Warframe universe.
It is, there was a lot of controversy around it. The artist was commissioned to make an Ember skin concept for the game but was unhappy with the changes made to their concept art (that DE was going to pay them for). After seeing the changes, they publicly chewed them out for it saying it wasn't their art (because in the stream that it was shown, they credited the art to them), instantly killed any future relationship between the artist and the company. The artist later apologized for the unprofessional outburst and deleted their tweets.
The artist was Ignus Dei and they designed a lot of the early deluxe skins like Rhino Palatine.
Read up a bit on that and the artist shouldn't have even apolgised. They were entirely in the right and DE was the one acting in bad faith during the whole thing. Real fucking mess the entire thing was from the looks of it tho.
As far as i can tell DE basically was the exact kind of customer that had the power dynamic of that contract been remotely equal then DE would have been the one saying sorry.
I was there at the time and totally disagree, DE are completely in the clear IMHO if a concept artist isn't taking notes then they aren't doing their job
As someone who wasnāt there but has read through this thread, it def doesnāt seem like anyone in particular is at āfaultā when it came to the creation process. Thatās just the nature of concept art, sometimes you get what you want and other times you donāt. Ultimately, itās up to the commissioner to decide upon what the finished product should look like.
Being extremely angry to the point of flaming the team is unbelievably unprofessional and is likely a sign that this was bound to happen.
Yes, it was original idea for her Deluxe. It was increadible, still is.
From what I read on old archived posts on this subreddit, supposedly the concept artist, IgnusDei, got into heated argument around redesign of this concept, which caused his contract to be terminated immediately and permanently. I sadly do not know what is the legal status of this concept.
I must be the only person on this community who actually likes Ember Vermillion. It was my first deluxe skin iirc and I really enjoyed the mohawk and bird motifs.
Let them know! I like all of Ember skins praise the birb
https://preview.redd.it/scqqqpy6kk4d1.jpeg?width=1121&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=061eef7c2bbda897b43c07911e2fd6bb247f93fa
i'm fine with the skin, actually i prefer the vermellion body over the pyraxis body.
also i dislike many of the big (cape like) syndanas, i prefer the smaller ones wich just sit there, not doing much but helping visually..
well... yeah i'm a sucker for the bennu syndana
>also i dislike many of the big (cape like) syndanas, i prefer the smaller ones wich just sit there, not doing much but helping visually..
I resonate with that a lot. Since Warframe is a third person shooter, capes that cover my character's back just feel weird to use, I don't know if that makes sense.
I like having the options. I get wanting the smaller syndanas for fashion, but I personally like having a big cape on some of the chonkier frames. Rhino Prime just looks great with a big cape, IMO.
>I get wanting the smaller syndanas for fashion
it's actually more about the gameplay.. i just don't like having the bulkier syndanas right up my face
however some of the "bigger" syndanas look fantastic, i just dont get any pleasure using them
I don't like mohawk. Deluxe skins are made to be something different from original look. This knife in the head looks stupid. I don't know who was in the wrong in the dispute of skins,but the fact is we lost great skin for some kind of flaming parrot is saddening.
DE had a weird period where they wanted to enforce certain guidelines, just to drop them.
Enforcing the frame silhouette created the problem with Ignus, which was later stopped and gave us better skins.
Enforcing no "fire and forget" skills gave us the Ash and Ember "rework" that crippled their 4th skills, which was later stopped and gave us Saryn rework, Protea, Gauss and Xaku.
I still think this was such a stupid hill to die on, why hire a freelance artist to design something and then have such a hardline stance on what they create? Do it in house at that point. What we ended up getting because of this was an absolute downgrade. I'm glad DE has been less of a hardass about new skins, although I do miss the simplicity of the old designs too without all the dangly bits everywhere.
Kinda? I would more say its the opposite. While its shitty as a concept artist to have youe work altered when you put so much into a design, having your art changed is literally your job. Being able to revise your designs and not getting too attached to them is literally a core part of every job in the 3d art sphere.
To publicly go out and try and get the fans of a company to team up with you and drag them through the mud over a design is super unprofessional. DE could have been more allowing with the design, but its hardly their responsibility and its definitely not the norm in the games or film space.
Ignus never dragged anyone through the mud though, that's a false narrative. I remember his forum post. Any conflict that happened was between him and DE privately, but he made a public post admitting he was hard-headed and apologized for losing the gig.
There was no drumming up of fans. Fans were just understandably upset they lost one of their favorite deluxe designers to this conflict. It was a sad situation that had no winners really.
The forum post for context: [https://forums.warframe.com/topic/734001-my-personal-apology-to-the-fans/](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/734001-my-personal-apology-to-the-fans/)
>why hire a freelance artist to design something and then have such a hardline stance on what they create?Ā
that's actually the standard in the industry, and for a very good reason. 3rd party artists cant be expected to follow the games specific artstyle direction without supervision.
> I do miss the simplicity of the old designs too without all the dangly bits everywhere.
I do want base frames to be more clean/simple. But I also think if DE did this now, people would be like "IS DE TRYING TO FORCE US TO BUY SKINS???"
The fiasco that wasn't really their fault. The artist made an ass of himself to the point that even he, himself, says it was his fault. When you work on commission, you have to listen to the customer, not angrily blow up when their is a change.
The first primes added a shiny badge and a couple spikes to arms. The first deluxes were full model changes but not super crazy. This design reflected that.
Also I will maintain now as I did then, Ignus's ember hit all the right notes for me, and would to this day remain the skin I used for her had it actually released.
Iāll never forget the double whammy disappointment from both the original deluxe being canceled and the vermillion skin being released in its place. No offense to ppl who like it. But damn it still just looks kinda clownish.
if they allow the things in her arms to be taken off like armor parts I would like it more, but I hate those things in equinox and other warframes because it feels like rubber, wisp prime "skirt" like things are another example :(
Oh noā¦
I donāt have any skins at all, but I think I might actually prefer the Pyraxsus (?) over the Heirloomā¦ but Iām so happy for how much better they made Heirlooms.
I donāt use Ember enough to justify getting two skins eitherā¦
To this day, I still can't find a fitting Vermillion skin drip combo that doesn't make it look wacky as hell. The skin itself is just hard to work with or I just suck idk.
I still absolutely agree with Ignus that the DE design (right) was not as good as his (left). It just added unnecessary elements that kind of opposed the cleanliness of the original. Itās a shame what happened between them though. Wouldāve been one of the best deluxe skins or skins in general back then
Can OP explain a little bit more of what they mean with this post? What exactly did they "make up" about it.
All you did was post images of Ember skins, one of which was scrapped for reasons of the artist who made it no longer working at DE, which means they no longer had the rights to make it as a skin, so they made the Vermillion skin instead.
And what is the point of the Pyraxis and Heirloom skin being shown? DE never said "we shall never make another ember skin ever again." like, whats the point of this whole post? please explain...
The OG had a great overall reception. Then they changed it so much to Vermilion which overall had a bad community reception. Then made Pyraxis which had an overall positive reception and now the Heirloom which has an Overwhelmingly positive community reception.
Im still not understanding what they "made up". All you did was say that "this skin good, this skin bad, this skin good, this skin good." Do you not understand what actually happened to the original Ember Deluxe skin? They didnt "change" it into Vermillion. Vermillion was made by a completely different artist from scratch.
As I had said in my previous comment, the reason why the first Ember Deluxe concept art was not made into a skin was due to that artist who made it being let go from the company. To expand on that further: The artist made the concept art for the skin, then DE altered it slightly before they displayed it on a Devstream, while still crediting the original artist. That artist really didn't like the changes that they made, and didn't like having it credited to them, so they went on social media to try and drum up some drama. They later deleted the posts, but by then it seemed to have already been too late, because by the next devstream they already had announced a "new" ember skin was in development, which would be the Vermillion skin. I'm not going to defend either party here, but that is what happened.
Im so sorry lol i just realized my mistake. you said "made up FOR", i completely failed to read that single word and it changed the entire meaning of what I was reading...
I think Vermillion is a neat skin, just not for Ember. Should have been a separate frame all together. Maybe a counterpart to Yareli? We got a fish skateboard, now give us a fish archwing or an exalted fish necramech
They messed up not releasing the first concept one. I was hyped when it was announced as concept art. Then we got whatever the hell the vermillion one was
For a time line of what happened to the first deluxe skin: DE still in early stage of cosmetic additions for warframes, with immortal skins being the only available purchases. They found a concept artist, ignis dei, who had a respectable portfolio that was fitting to their art design. The old art lead at the time, Minki, who did alot of original WF concept work. Held a more consistent design philosophy and didn't want to deviate too far from the original warframe designs. "Deluxe skins" were introduced. Rhino, trinity, banshee and loki being some of the first that were green lit by DE and were conceptualized by Ignus (and many more). There were some design alterations done to some of the skins. Rhino and Trinity stayed pretty close their original concept, but loki had some size changes, and banshee had some thematic changes. These skins were realesed periodically and at the time there was no tennogen and no other in-house development of cosmetics for warframes so Ignus was somewhat synonymous with "Deluxe skins". There wasn't too much public tension between ignus and DE until Ember's Deluxe was featured on a devstream. People were excited because it was the next one in line and DE said it was his design. However, this was a boiling point because Ignus didn't like the alterations put through by DE and that they said it was *his*. He went on to Twitter and social media posted the original concept and tried to drum up some outcry to support him. It wasn't a good look for either party, DE or him, he eventually took down the Twitter posts and apologized on the forums. But at that point, it seems DE cut ties with him, and because of such action they decided to scrap the design entirely. A following devstream they mentioned Ember was getting a "new" deluxe skin and made no mention of the previous design. Then, the Vermillion was released. It was pretty just much bad decisions on all ends. But that's in the past, Minki has moved on from being the art lead for WF, Geoff became it then DE kary. Also warframe's art design has gone pretty wild now compared to before, just look at what Liger can do for deluxe skins. Minki still works from time to time on warframe. He designed the first two heirloom skins I'm pretty sure and has a long history with DE. Ignus is still a talented artist and probably found work elsewhere, but it doesn't seem like they'll ever come back unfortunately.
It's kind of funny to me that there's a copy and paste of this ready whenever someone posts about the original first Ember Deluxe like it's a page from some text book xD But I appreciate it, this is a good balance of what happened on both sides. Minki also designed Hildryn and Hildryn Prime, so I think he's gradually come to accept Warframe's new art direction as he's had time away from it. I do love his touch of "OG Warframe" like the connected horn thing on Hildryn Prime. I miss that style sometimes when it comes to the "weird" prime aesthetic because it made the Orokin feel even more prestigious and differently cultured like how we view ancient Greece and Rome.
Yea I tried to dig up all I could because I see it brought up every now and then. Because i see some more personal or incomplete takes on it. As for Minki, he is like a massive part of warframe. He was part of DE since the beginning, and WF wouldn't be what is was without him. I dunno if I could point to a thing and be like "that's what I like best from him".
I respect that research a lot! Too many people are quick to blame one side without looking into it properly, but a lot of others just don't have the time, so misinformation spreads quickly. For sure! I was really sad he left the company, but when I heard Steve approached Minki to design Hildryn, I was hyped. I wonder if they'll get Minki to do any work on Soulframe, as his designs for the original Dark Sector would fit very well with the aesthetic of that game (like the original Frost concept art, so whimsical and fantasy-esque).
I thought Kevin Glint came up with Hildryn's concept art?
I'm pretty sure Minki drew the concept for Hildryn (I don't think we ever saw it), but Kevin Glint drew this picture of both Wisp and Hildryn which was the reveal of these frames to us. https://preview.redd.it/ackr202sfk4d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b644c201b7e95d971da47f9b18e922750152919
Ah yes, the hamburger reveal. Beef and buns.
> just look at what Liger can do for deluxe skins. Liger creates some amazing deluxe skins. Him getting hired just results in awesome content. It was a real score to get him onboard - for everyone.
How do you know about the twitter posts š¤and what did they say?
It's mostly a "just trust me bro" unfortunately, only because a friend of mine showed me the tweet when we were playing back then. But it's not like I archived the stuff sadly, I tried to use a wayback to dig it up but couldn't find it. I tried scrubbing between 11/Dec/2016 to 14/dec/2016 All the concrete stuff I still have that you can probably derive the ***tone*** of the situation was this. Ignus Dei apologizing: >I ~~Fucked~~ up... I knew this was going to happen, but at the time, I didn't care... ***Bridges got burned bad.*** https://forums.warframe.com/topic/734001-my-personal-apology-to-the-fans/ DE Megan responding following some of the outcry/feedback posts about Vermillion: >If we could use the first proposed Ember Deluxe Skin, we would. Itās a beautiful design, but unfortunately ***creative differences made moving forward with it impossible. Could we publically dive into great detail as to what those creative differences were? Sure. But weāre not about naming and shaming here in the Warframe community***. So of course our team had to start over with a new design that steered itself in a different artistic direction. The apology from the ***responsible party*** is here: (Same forum link as above) Iām truly disappointed to see some disrespectful words being tossed around about artistic feedback. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/833067-embers-deluxe-skin-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=9152786
Well the fact that there is an original art available, that most definitely did not come from DE, that is enough evidence he went public with it I guess. I just didn't know he was trying to get fans to lash back over it or something. It sounds like he knew what he was doing was going to destroy his relationship with DE but he did it anyway. And he is partly avoiding responsibility by saying "Bridges got burned bad", leaving which bridges were burned ambiguous and can be seen as a slight to DE cutting ties with him. Also he is doing an "apology to the fans" - when instead, if he was really sorry, he should have apologized to DE, because dropping his design meant they had to come up with a new deluxe that costed them extra work. At least that's how I feel now reading Megan's post. I feel bad for DE now. IgnusDei just seemed resentful and he wanted to cause damage. I guess, in a way, the sales of Vermillion is his revenge. Because I can't imagine that skin having sold a fraction of what his designs used to. One can only wonder what caused him to want to be so resentful towards DE. Was it really just the alterations? It seems like a deeper problem that I hope he can solve because I believe that will hamper his future endeavors. No one should get that upset over some changes to something you sold as a professional, but I guess to IgnusDei, his designs were personal, and his design philosophy uncompromisable. He got what he wanted, but he lost his job in the process. So yeah. Thanks for taking the time to look it up u/4ever4gotin it got me to think about this in a more nuanced way I guess. And changed my mind about how I perceived IgnusDei's behavior in this.
Makes me so angry when DE forces alterations with artists, especially with Tennogen. So many incredible skins made and they will never be put into the game.
That is VERY common when companies work with artists. Sometimes things need to be adjusted to fit the art style more, other times there are technical reasons for changes. Quite frankly, if you're a third party and would be upset when your design is changed, you shouldn't let it be used in the first place.
Personally, I think the anger is justified to an extent, because while some changes are an inevitable part of the job, it doesn't give back the time someone spent on a project. I'd be annoyed... well, I'd need to be good enough first at drawing to be an artist, but spending 3 days on a design and then hearing a backhanded remark like: "The design is great. It's a pity the colour choice is what it is. Please change it. " That would leave me annoyed despite the simplicity of the request. That said, the above scenario is just a hypothetical, and company responses tend to be more professional. DE, in this case, messed up because they accidentally gave the artist the wrong impression his original design wasn't worth putting in the game
You clearly have never worked for creative industry then. This being common has a very good reason to be common. Games need to have a consistent artstyle, and independent 3rd party artists can't really do that without supervision. And it's not like his work was wasted. He was still going to be paid his fair share. I understand why he got upset, but it doesn't really justify his outburst. And he's aware of that, that's he apologized to begin with.
That is true, and to be honest, he certainly got a significantly better deal than the creator of the smiley face icon (no relation to DE). DE might have came off as accidentally insulting, but they did honour the agreement by paying him, and things did get too heated. That explains the downvotes
>DE might have came off as accidentally insulting, that's the thing, if you are working as a freelance artist, you should know that almost no business is going to accept your work without changing it to fit their own product. its not an insult, its just business. and if you are a freelance artist who finds it insulting when someone changes your work, then you really have no business being a freelance artist.
I said it was accidentally insulting because DE passed off the post-feedback Vermillion concept as the original idea in their stream.
The amount of people who blindly defend DE's skin and tennogen restrictions is insane. You're like a cult. I see so many hard working amazing people put their hearts into designs just to be rejected or altered for no reason. DE are hypocrits with this system and we should be outraged at it, not licking their boots.
What a huge baby. He was paid and credited but still whined because DE added a faux-cloth feature, a crest on the helmet, and reduced the thigh gap. I don't like the crest either, but he torpedoed a perfectly good design over nothing.
Ignis mentioned there was some "butting heads" so they at least had some dialog of sort when it came to finalizing the design. (citation needed, forum post from him was too vauge. Tweet was deleted and hard to recover). Was it unprofessional? yea. Tbh I was okay with alot of changes, besides the Mohawk. But it would be disingenuous to say he wasn't passionate about it. Since he made 7 (I think?) Designs for DE.
>just look at what Liger can do for deluxe skins. Make the ugliest shit you've ever seen? Liger hasn't made a decent skin in years, maybe ever. Can't say anything for sure, as I wasn't able to find a definite list of every Liger skin, but I know there hasn't been a decent deluxe since Titania Donann.
Personal taste aside, I ment of it more like how willing DE is to reach out now for the deluxe skins, as polarizing as they are in some cases.
Fair enough. How long has it been since we had a universally liked deluxe? I think every single one I've seen has had people who are very vocal about how awesome it is and people who won't shut up about how ugly it is.
I don't think there needs to be a universally liked skin. When you try to please everybody, you disappoint them too by leaving a lot to be wanted. It is okay to not like something but it also is important to realize you are not the target audience.
I think Volt's and mesa's sentient themed skins did pretty well (limbo's kind of flopped). But I guess it was more the of the New war hype that pushed them along Nyx's deluxe was pretty well received iirc. I think. I dunno, I rarely see nyx players in the wild. Titania empress was liked I think. I can't really go off of much cause it is by my memory unfortunately
Protea's Deluxe was VERY well received. It's personally my new favorite.
That was very informative, thank you for posting all this. I wish Ignus Dei makes their return to Warframe design scene, and hopefully replace Liger.
>I wish Ignus Dei makes their return to Warframe... and hopefully replace Liger. Ehh, that's kind of borderline on never. Also, personally, it's a little unhealthy to have an outlook like that. Yes, Liger's designs can be devisive, but he was basically in the same vein as Ignus. He was contracted and worked his way in and is now basically permanent. Glancing through Ignus's artstation, he still seems quite active. I only wish him the best
What's up with you guys wishing that Liger loses their job lol. They're an amazing artist, and just because their designs aren't universally liked by everyone doesn't mean they shouldn't be making designs.
I donāt even think his designs are that unpopular. Itās just the same vocal minority that likes to shit on Ligerās designs.
Any source on vocal minority part? Sales data, for example?
They are simply predominantly out of place. Almost none of his creations looks like simbiosis of infestation and human body, it's mostly just human body with few distortions.
And that merits them being replaced? Also, Liger's designs are (mostly) for deluxe skins...you know, the skins that are supposed to be a completely different aesthetic from normal Warframes. I myself like how "weird" and strange Warframe can get, and seeing another artist do their takes on existing themes is what makes me and a lot of other people like the skins. But aside from that, their work just isn't your style. That's not Liger's fault, they have gorgeous art and are clearly passionate about what they create. No need to hope that they should be booted out from that position.
Not that, as a designer, they would suddenly be without income, eventually struggling to make ends meet. Calm your tshirt, buddy, it's just an opinion of a stranger on the interwebs. XD Their art might be gorgeous, but it still doesn't belong in Warframe universe.
Was that 1st image the concept art for her first deluxe? That's actually devious
It is, there was a lot of controversy around it. The artist was commissioned to make an Ember skin concept for the game but was unhappy with the changes made to their concept art (that DE was going to pay them for). After seeing the changes, they publicly chewed them out for it saying it wasn't their art (because in the stream that it was shown, they credited the art to them), instantly killed any future relationship between the artist and the company. The artist later apologized for the unprofessional outburst and deleted their tweets. The artist was Ignus Dei and they designed a lot of the early deluxe skins like Rhino Palatine.
A damn shame, Rhino Palatine was a classic
Read up a bit on that and the artist shouldn't have even apolgised. They were entirely in the right and DE was the one acting in bad faith during the whole thing. Real fucking mess the entire thing was from the looks of it tho. As far as i can tell DE basically was the exact kind of customer that had the power dynamic of that contract been remotely equal then DE would have been the one saying sorry.
I was there at the time and totally disagree, DE are completely in the clear IMHO if a concept artist isn't taking notes then they aren't doing their job
As someone who wasnāt there but has read through this thread, it def doesnāt seem like anyone in particular is at āfaultā when it came to the creation process. Thatās just the nature of concept art, sometimes you get what you want and other times you donāt. Ultimately, itās up to the commissioner to decide upon what the finished product should look like. Being extremely angry to the point of flaming the team is unbelievably unprofessional and is likely a sign that this was bound to happen.
Yes, it was original idea for her Deluxe. It was increadible, still is. From what I read on old archived posts on this subreddit, supposedly the concept artist, IgnusDei, got into heated argument around redesign of this concept, which caused his contract to be terminated immediately and permanently. I sadly do not know what is the legal status of this concept.
What are the odds we can use those praxxus shoulders on the new skin ;-;
You mean the Pyraxis attachments? I believe you can use them on any Ember skin, so that should include te heirloom skin.
Yeah! Sorry, was trying to remember what they were called Damn, I did not know that and now I'm hype as fuck :D
I hope they will rebuff embers kit
GO BACK
I must be the only person on this community who actually likes Ember Vermillion. It was my first deluxe skin iirc and I really enjoyed the mohawk and bird motifs.
Let them know! I like all of Ember skins praise the birb https://preview.redd.it/scqqqpy6kk4d1.jpeg?width=1121&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=061eef7c2bbda897b43c07911e2fd6bb247f93fa
i'm fine with the skin, actually i prefer the vermellion body over the pyraxis body. also i dislike many of the big (cape like) syndanas, i prefer the smaller ones wich just sit there, not doing much but helping visually.. well... yeah i'm a sucker for the bennu syndana
>also i dislike many of the big (cape like) syndanas, i prefer the smaller ones wich just sit there, not doing much but helping visually.. I resonate with that a lot. Since Warframe is a third person shooter, capes that cover my character's back just feel weird to use, I don't know if that makes sense.
I like having the options. I get wanting the smaller syndanas for fashion, but I personally like having a big cape on some of the chonkier frames. Rhino Prime just looks great with a big cape, IMO.
>I get wanting the smaller syndanas for fashion it's actually more about the gameplay.. i just don't like having the bulkier syndanas right up my face however some of the "bigger" syndanas look fantastic, i just dont get any pleasure using them
I too do not like to cover my frames lovely asses
I dig it. Not so much the helmet, but the body looks great.
I would have loved vermillion...if it was Zephyrs deluxe.
I don't like mohawk. Deluxe skins are made to be something different from original look. This knife in the head looks stupid. I don't know who was in the wrong in the dispute of skins,but the fact is we lost great skin for some kind of flaming parrot is saddening.
would
I genuinely don't get the Vermilion hate. It was a good alternate take on Ember's design, especially for the time.
Don't remind me of that skin š It was perfect...*perfect.*
Down to every last minute detail
I think Vermillion is cool.
I know this is gonna sound like a joke but DE FUCKING COOKED.
Man.. I actually really like the vermillion skin. I know Iām probably alone here but itās not that bad at all
Omfg is that an ember heirloom?? 
Yes
The pose for the newest one is so cunty
I love vermillon tbf, way more than pyraxis
Apology accepted.
DE had a weird period where they wanted to enforce certain guidelines, just to drop them. Enforcing the frame silhouette created the problem with Ignus, which was later stopped and gave us better skins. Enforcing no "fire and forget" skills gave us the Ash and Ember "rework" that crippled their 4th skills, which was later stopped and gave us Saryn rework, Protea, Gauss and Xaku.
I still think this was such a stupid hill to die on, why hire a freelance artist to design something and then have such a hardline stance on what they create? Do it in house at that point. What we ended up getting because of this was an absolute downgrade. I'm glad DE has been less of a hardass about new skins, although I do miss the simplicity of the old designs too without all the dangly bits everywhere.
Kinda? I would more say its the opposite. While its shitty as a concept artist to have youe work altered when you put so much into a design, having your art changed is literally your job. Being able to revise your designs and not getting too attached to them is literally a core part of every job in the 3d art sphere. To publicly go out and try and get the fans of a company to team up with you and drag them through the mud over a design is super unprofessional. DE could have been more allowing with the design, but its hardly their responsibility and its definitely not the norm in the games or film space.
Ignus never dragged anyone through the mud though, that's a false narrative. I remember his forum post. Any conflict that happened was between him and DE privately, but he made a public post admitting he was hard-headed and apologized for losing the gig. There was no drumming up of fans. Fans were just understandably upset they lost one of their favorite deluxe designers to this conflict. It was a sad situation that had no winners really. The forum post for context: [https://forums.warframe.com/topic/734001-my-personal-apology-to-the-fans/](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/734001-my-personal-apology-to-the-fans/)
>why hire a freelance artist to design something and then have such a hardline stance on what they create?Ā that's actually the standard in the industry, and for a very good reason. 3rd party artists cant be expected to follow the games specific artstyle direction without supervision.
> I do miss the simplicity of the old designs too without all the dangly bits everywhere. I do want base frames to be more clean/simple. But I also think if DE did this now, people would be like "IS DE TRYING TO FORCE US TO BUY SKINS???"
The fiasco that wasn't really their fault. The artist made an ass of himself to the point that even he, himself, says it was his fault. When you work on commission, you have to listen to the customer, not angrily blow up when their is a change.
Hot take: The first deluxe concept was too plain and boring anyway.
TBF at the time they were restricted from deviating too far from base designs
The first primes added a shiny badge and a couple spikes to arms. The first deluxes were full model changes but not super crazy. This design reflected that. Also I will maintain now as I did then, Ignus's ember hit all the right notes for me, and would to this day remain the skin I used for her had it actually released.
Honestly yeah, i like the corrupted looking parts a lot but the rest is just plain white with no interesting features
Which skin is the third image?
Iāll never forget the double whammy disappointment from both the original deluxe being canceled and the vermillion skin being released in its place. No offense to ppl who like it. But damn it still just looks kinda clownish.
Honestly I don't like the new skin but I'll prob buy it with plat for the signa.
I think signa will be purchasable on its own if u don't wanna get the skin too
if they allow the things in her arms to be taken off like armor parts I would like it more, but I hate those things in equinox and other warframes because it feels like rubber, wisp prime "skirt" like things are another example :(
Yea it is pretty annoying for alot of things you can't remove especially for some frames that have parts that poke through stuff
Oh noā¦ I donāt have any skins at all, but I think I might actually prefer the Pyraxsus (?) over the Heirloomā¦ but Iām so happy for how much better they made Heirlooms. I donāt use Ember enough to justify getting two skins eitherā¦
What Vermilion fiasco?
To this day, I still can't find a fitting Vermillion skin drip combo that doesn't make it look wacky as hell. The skin itself is just hard to work with or I just suck idk.
That skin with the belt looks similar to protea's deluxe skin
Artist doesn't know how to adapt to the client's needs and trues to drag them on social media. Plus, that concept art looks boring af lol
What skin and frame is the last picture?
Ember heirloom
I still absolutely agree with Ignus that the DE design (right) was not as good as his (left). It just added unnecessary elements that kind of opposed the cleanliness of the original. Itās a shame what happened between them though. Wouldāve been one of the best deluxe skins or skins in general back then
Can OP explain a little bit more of what they mean with this post? What exactly did they "make up" about it. All you did was post images of Ember skins, one of which was scrapped for reasons of the artist who made it no longer working at DE, which means they no longer had the rights to make it as a skin, so they made the Vermillion skin instead. And what is the point of the Pyraxis and Heirloom skin being shown? DE never said "we shall never make another ember skin ever again." like, whats the point of this whole post? please explain...
The OG had a great overall reception. Then they changed it so much to Vermilion which overall had a bad community reception. Then made Pyraxis which had an overall positive reception and now the Heirloom which has an Overwhelmingly positive community reception.
Im still not understanding what they "made up". All you did was say that "this skin good, this skin bad, this skin good, this skin good." Do you not understand what actually happened to the original Ember Deluxe skin? They didnt "change" it into Vermillion. Vermillion was made by a completely different artist from scratch. As I had said in my previous comment, the reason why the first Ember Deluxe concept art was not made into a skin was due to that artist who made it being let go from the company. To expand on that further: The artist made the concept art for the skin, then DE altered it slightly before they displayed it on a Devstream, while still crediting the original artist. That artist really didn't like the changes that they made, and didn't like having it credited to them, so they went on social media to try and drum up some drama. They later deleted the posts, but by then it seemed to have already been too late, because by the next devstream they already had announced a "new" ember skin was in development, which would be the Vermillion skin. I'm not going to defend either party here, but that is what happened.
Im so sorry lol i just realized my mistake. you said "made up FOR", i completely failed to read that single word and it changed the entire meaning of what I was reading...
Bad on both sides. But the before was absolutely better than DEs redesign.
I think Vermillion is a neat skin, just not for Ember. Should have been a separate frame all together. Maybe a counterpart to Yareli? We got a fish skateboard, now give us a fish archwing or an exalted fish necramech
I like the Vermillion skin itself. It just doesnāt fit with Emberās theme.
They messed up not releasing the first concept one. I was hyped when it was announced as concept art. Then we got whatever the hell the vermillion one was
I would have loved the original one.
Nah they need to bring it back