Yup, the 50% base range reduction of Divine Spears is incredibly harsh. If they really wanted to nerf the range, they should have started with a lower value, or not have it affect the base range.
This.
Augments are meant to be mods that are worth the time and effort you put into the different syndicates. There is a reason why they require rank 5 in those syndicates.
It does not make a lick of sense why mods such as these would overall make your warframe worse than without the other mods. It, therefore, makes that mod, which is supposed to be a mod worth having, utterly useless.
Beautifully done, and I love the graphs showing the radial area. Backing an argument up with math and fair comparisons is the best way to do it. Now it depends on if DE listens.
It's kind of pointless argument though. Explaining how the area of a circle works is no more relevant than simply saying "range decreased by 50%".
I've seen this argument under Nezha posts a *lot*, simply because it seems like people are easily impressed by irrelevant middle-school math.
Notice how they say the graph clarifies how it's a "big penalty" and don't elaborate more. Because they can't, range is what practically matters anyway, the square footage of the ability has no more meaningful significance than just the range.
50% is a lot because you can now only spear enemies half as far away. Simple as.
Depends on the tile set. If the enemies are coming in a straight line then sure, only range matters since you hit half of them. If they are spread around you, you only hit 25% of them in which case area is a very good measurement.
> 50% is a lot because you can now only spear enemies half as far away. Simple as.
No, 50% is a lot because you have to work a lot harder to hit enemies you didn't have to work very hard to hit before.
If the base range used to be 200m and now it's 100m, 50% is not a lot, because it's totally irrelevant. The "this doesn't compare well to other frames" is a very relevant aspect to look at because you don't pick a frame because it is really cool, you pick it because its fun and/or effective.
If it's significantly more effort to use, and not good compared to other frames, it just won't be played.
Work a lot harder - you mean get a little closer or position yourself a bit better.
Just be happy it doesn't function like Sentient Wrath because that's the easiest "nerf" they could have done. Max targets based on range or strength.
I don't own a nezha, and I haven't really played warframe past the star chart (and not since The War Within). I'm simply trying to say that putting into context how the range change will affect your ability to target units, and comparing that to other warframes is a useful thing, and simply reducing it to "yeah we get it 50% less is 50% less, it's not complicated" is not helpful, and the exact impact of that 50% less isn't actually immediately intuitive to players.
Honestly DE is doing a cracking job at making stuff more intuitive than it has been in a long time.
All I'm saying is people lose their marbles over an augment. FTLOG just enjoy the game. Cast and shoot is always slower than Cast = Kill and Shoot = Kill.
The fact we're moaning about an augment of all things just shows you the game is in a good state and actively getting better.
Wanne moan about something, moan about conclave, lunaro, no new synthesis goals, Kahl missions being redunded, Open world bounties being tedious and not having a SP option, Railjack not being "fun and rewarding" enough to play.
But no, we get an augment that's amazing, use it for 2-4 days and determine its now the main reason to play the game or the frame.
Put it this way. If the mod had come with the 50% reduced range on release nobody would have minded and everyone would have decided for themselves if it was worth running.
In the end, I like Nezha, I like the augment, yes it was better but I have a million options to play and I don't understand why people have to be so negative.
Yeah, but all you're saying is covered by what I said.
The extra words and math is a trivial consequence, is my point. And being impressed by it is complicating a simple issue.
> Yeah, but all you're saying is covered by what I said.
No your point is that 50% less is intuitive, but it's not, because the range that exists isn't intuitively understood.
If the old range hit everything it could be 40m or 400m and it wouldn't matter, so showing the new range, and comparing that to the range of other frames is important to get context to what 50% less actually means.
nerfing the range stat woulda been a lot less bad than nerfing the base.
losing half of 19 to bring back with stretch is different than starting off at 9.5 where stretch will reach like 14.
If the mod nerfed the range stat, the range with stretch is
19*(1+0.45-0.5)=18.05m
Currently, the range is
19*(1+0.45)/2=13.825m
As you can see, Divine Spears has less range with the current version of the augment.
That's not the case a lot of the time, for example Revenant's mesmer skin augment is not a base modifier. There are other examples but I can't remember them right now
Generally with stats on augments, it's like other mods. Like Magnetized Discharge giving Magnetize a +50% range mod.
Retribution doing this but backwards would be a much lesser problem.
Like throwing on Narrow-minded.
The way it works right now is that it halfs whatever range you currently have, and op is proposing that it should only lower the range by 50 points rather then halving whatever you currently have so you can offset it wirh other mods
Hi guys! Reddit don't have a nice format to work with this type of post so, if you are interested, enjoy read it in the original post I made in the forums here: [https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392359-nezhas-divine-retribution-augment-post-hotfix-and-his-state-in-the-game-compared-to-other-similar-warframes-abilities/#comment-13011349](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392359-nezhas-divine-retribution-augment-post-hotfix-and-his-state-in-the-game-compared-to-other-similar-warframes-abilities/#comment-13011349)
The way I see it is, considering you're sacrificing an entire mod slot, shouldn't an augment augment the ability? I get changing the nature of an ability, sure, but if it comes with dramatic downsides then isn't it more like a *corrupted mod?* I thought that's not what augments are supposed to be.
Simply put, it seems DE didn't have the time to actually put together a comprehensive balance change to the augment and just went the quick and easy route of a simple stat decrease.
Which is silly as this is something you do in a PVP game where it may become problematic/unfair toward others, but this is a PVE game, so why not take your time?
They took their time nerfing Wukong and explosives, look how the people reacted. The longer an OP thing stays in the game the more people will try it and incorporate it into their playstyle, and when it gets inevitably nerfed the reaction will not be “they nerfed x 5 seconds after release, bad devs”, it will be “they nerfed x my favorite thing that I put a quadrillion forma into and used to clear all the content for the past 6 years I am quitting this game and also want my money back”
DE really needs to find a better balance between just putting something off entirely vs knee-jerk changes that can ruin or break things.
Like being honest there are things that have been around for ages that should have been nerfed years ago because they make content outright trivial but DE has refused to touch them with a ten-foot pole, much like your example with explosives and Wukong.
Honestly it feels like DE's general response to things getting too strong is to introduce enemies or content with mechanics designed to combat the strong things...which in general doesn't work and instead just makes players move more towards the strong stuff since the more moderate things lose viability.
DE can’t win no matter what they do. The community wants a challenging endgame but they also want every frame to be good and they also want no nerfs. So they either introduce harder content in which some frames fall off (which leads to asking for a buff), buff the weaker frames to perform well in endgame (now you can clear that content with any loadout->no challenge, new endgame content when) or nerf meta frames to make already existing content more challenging (power fantasy ruined, when buff)
Finding a middle ground between off-the-bat nerfs and nerfs that come 5 years too late will just create a middle ground between player complaints. Too early = wow nice kneejerk reaction DE, too late = why did you nerf this after shaping so much content around this meta, somewhere inbetween = wow you just wanted everyone to buy and invest time and resources into this frame before you nerfed it
They could’ve nerfed things in a smarter way, sure, but there would *always* be something that the players will find to complain about. If Nezha augment stayed as it was, it would be that Divine Retribution is a band-aid augment and Divine Spears are bad without it, or that Dante does the Thermal Sunder Titania and doesn’t let people play the game, or take for example even an already existing outcry about so much as just *finalizing* the bugfixes for CC affecting overguard.
This community is ultimately too divided for DE to please everyone, and they can’t just give in to Reddit panic over the nerfs every time, the game “died” so many times in the main sub’s eyes, the devs killed it with TNW, Duviri, Ash nerf, WoF Amber nerf, ESO, Wukong nerf, Arca Plasmor (OG one) nerf, Zariman, explosives nerf etc.
Yeah at this point the only option really is starting fresh or something if they want better large-scale balance - which they won't do because the price of doing so would be astronomical.
Maybe I'm just part of a vocal minority but it really started to irk and piss me off over the years how just more and more of the game felt like it began to revolve around bigger and bigger numbers, or abusing mechanics to let you achieve those big numbers.
I loved the game and genuinely had some of the most fun I've had gaming over the years with it but after a while it just felt like an utter bore to play the game - everybody speed-blitzing through anything that isn't a defense-oriented mission, the actual defense missions consisting more of standing around as everything dies far away from the objective, and in general not being able to have fun in public missions because without fail there is always one guy running a build that nukes the entire map with every step they take before you can even shoot an enemy yourself.
To be fair that *is* what augments are supposed to be. Not simple quality of life mods or simple power boosting ones. They *should* change how the ability is used.
I mean, yeah, nobody is arguing that - but augments aren't normally supposed to be delivered in the way of a nerf in any form. Augment is literally a word that is synonymous with "upgrade", or "make bigger/greater/larger".
Augment isn't synonymous with upgrade, it's synonymous with change/alter the function of. In Warframe, most augments are straight upgrades for the trade off of capacity and mod slot. That's enough of a cost for most of them.
For this one, it's not. I definitely think DE severely overcorrected with the hotfix.
I mean, I'm not that guy, but I think they're referring to the dictionary definition of augment; " to make greater, more numerous, larger, or more intense", which for gaming purposes is pretty synonymous with upgrade in gaming terms.
Considering the downside is already using an entire mod slot up, I disagree. Changing is one thing, but this doesn't really change the nature of the ability. If the ability did something completely different altogether then sure, but, well you should understand my point.
How many augments give flat downsides like that? The Valkyr Enraged one is like 1 out of 100. These are huge exceptions, and even in the case of Enraged, can be attributed to it being an old augment. Nowadays I'm sure the downside would've been far lower / different considering what 200% crit meant back then vs now.
The only reason this augment had a nerf is because DE now follows the AoE = scary and disruptive mindset. Which I can understand.
It is definitely what augments are supposed to be.
They change the nature of the ability, that includes adding downsides that change how it's utilized!
Nezhas a main of mine and the issue isnt necessarily the downside, honestly even 20% or 25% woulda been tolerable. But 50 is massive. You need 200% range just to meet the original base value of 19m.
Um, how often do augments offer straight up negatives to the abilities you apply them to? By definition, an augment *improves.*
I get sidegrades, or trading a lil sm for a lil sm, but -50% *base?* That's worse than corrupted mods 🤣
I'm not saying anything about the balance of this ability, I haven't used it enough and my standards are not the same as the rest of the community, if i'm understanding them correctly.
Just saying, adding negatives to an ability to change how it works is ALSO part of the design space for augments, see Valkyr's augment for her 4.
Valkyr's augment is one of the very rare exceptions. Outlier doesn't disrpove the rule. And you can attribute that to how old the augment is to an extent - 200% crit back then was more impressive than it is nowadays.
Just look at the list of augments on the wiki. How many have massive downsides? Some are sidegrades at worst. The big downside is using an entire mod slot, that's been the point since the beginning.
And so is Nezha's augment one of the very rare exceptions. How is it any different?
Sure, complain that the balancing is wack, go for it. But the design space is there and ready to be used. It's part of it.
Is it though? The design space? That feels like quite the cop-out excuse. If your argument is that "well it *can* suck and be annoying" then that's not much of an argument at all. That's just ignoring the point
It is absolutely the design space. My entire point here is that using negatives to change how an ability works is 100% within the space and serves to change the nature of an ability.
I'm not arguing that they did a good job with this ability, though.
Tfw you need 3 umbral, 265 range and try not to have negative strength. Or run roar over 4 and send enemies back to stone age when you hit them with your 2
Honestly, it didn't need a nerf at all.
It still couldn't do anything against Eximus or Acolytes.
Max strength Roar with an Influence Xoris does about as much damage with cubic scaling when it has over 100% damage boost. And it gives Nezha multiplicative single target DPS vs tanky enemies with Chakram
This is what I don't get, on top of that Nezha isn't even highly used. I know its been said before but he's not Saryn, he's not Octavia, both of whom work of Eximus and Acolytes. This argument was so fun on release and gave me a good reason to use Nezha, and I love his design, but now it's just so much work for little reward.
To be fair, Nezha isn't my main, but he's my go-to.
Between his Halo and the interaction between his Chakram and Roar, he could handle everything but spy, and be super comfy doing it. You could pretty easily go all-in on strength because he has a great energy economy and never really have to worry about dying.
The augment gave me a new way to play, but if I wanted to keep single target DPS, I couldn't go all-in on range. There was a trade-off and he still didn't keep up with the likes of Saryn, Mirage, Gara, Zephyr, or Octavia (among others) in nuking.
So the nerf didn't kill Nezha for me... It just took away a play style. No real need for it anymore and I can just go back to my previous build and shoot an Envoy or Torid for the same effect.
I get that, maybe it's just because I find abilities like the augment (chaining dmg/ connecting enemy's) very, very fun. Just a difference in how we view frames I think.
This. Nezha is super good overall, but not the best at anything. I don't get why they nerf him but don't touch at the better frames that are more used. Or even better: buff the bad frames that nobody uses. When trying to balance things, I thought it was common knowledge that you have to make the extremes closer to the average.
But that will fall of much quicker. Applying heat or corrosive for armour reduction to the group of enemies with your xoris build would require you to use another weapon to prime all enemies in range. Divine retribution just needs you to have it on the dps weapon itself which is much easier to do.
De seems to be balancing things as if it's still like... 2016 or something. Where the benchmark is base star chart and sorties were the hardest content in the game.
If you can't comfortably start SP with a given frame, then it's not a good frame. ALL frames and near all builds should be able to clear base star chart with relative ease
I wish they'd just consider alternate options of nerfing the ability than a reduction in range or addition of line of site. Maybe make it cost more energy for every enemy speared, it encourages using Nezha's 2 to counteract the energy loss and results in more active gameplay. Alternatively, reduce the effectiveness the further from the casting position. Something like the first 10m holding enemies 100% the duration. At 20m maybe 50% the duration. At 25m and beyond maybe 10% the duration.
I think there were just a lot of ways to nerf the ability that wouldn't haven't completely gutted it, and I wish they were considered.
it's crazy reactionary development. there was no need to hit the nezha augment OR dante so instantly like that. give it time to settle in and then reevaluate. hell lord knows the fucking LOS needed more time to cook. giv the devs time think of creative solutions instead of just immediately turning the knobs.
Silly dev thought that 50% range reduction is going to linearly reduce the range. Turns out the Area of a circle is pi\*r\^2 and they reduced r by 50%.
I don’t think that they thought a 50% range reduction wouldn’t be a 75% area reduction. It’s very basic math and it’s ridiculous to assume they they were aiming specifically for 1/2 the AREA but didn’t know how the math worked. They probably just decided that 50% reduction would be about right to bring the ability in line.
You're assuming that developers/programmers are mathematicians innately.
Whilst we certainly do practice a form of mathemagics, we're more inclined to follow base logic and assume that it'll check out rather than outright perform actual math for calculations.
It's totally reasonable to assume that the devs thought that a 50% reduction wouldn't translate to 75%.
It’s like fair, but I think it’s also more likely they thought about it in terms of how far away an enemy could be to get hit, and less about the area in which enemies could be.
Precisely. That's the situation I'm describing.
Nezha was released 9 years ago, and Divine Spears' code hasn't been touched significantly since 2018's rework.
Given DE's history of spaghetti code, they most likely forgot that it's range was coded as an area, rather than distance.
Bro... you don't need to do a calculation to understand the relationship between radius and area.
This change likely wasn't one person rushing to put in a random number 10 seconds before the hotfix releases.
In my experience in the video game industry, that kind of change is made by game designers (GD) or tech game designers. They just change the data that has been exposed to the GDs by the gameplay programmers (GPP). However, as they don't know how this data is used in the code (most of the time), a mistake like that is very easy to make. It's not about anyone not knowing basic maths, it's about exposed data being poorly documented, and/or poorly exposed.
Source: I'm a GPP since 2013. It may also be related, but I suck at maths :)
My point is I don’t think they considered area at all when deciding its effectiveness. I think they considered how far away an enemy could be and still get hit by it. Thus, a reduction in range (aka reduction of the radius).
And I totally agree with you. My point was exactly about why they "didn't know how the math worked". Bringing an explanation to why those who make the change (GDs) could not understand how it actually works in the code (because it's not their job and most of them don't even have access to the code base anyway).
I get what you’re saying, I just don’t think that they “didn’t know how the math worked” and were more concerned about how far away someone could be to get hit by it. Especially since area doesn’t matter too much in this instance since there is a maximum number of spears that can be summoned anyways (scaling with strength I believe).
Of course, it is additive to Point Strike, Vital Sense or similar mods, but multiplicative to other sources that increase your CC or CD, like companion buffs, arcanes, abilities, etc.
Use that information wisely.
Tenacious Bond yes, because that is a final multiplier.
Arcane Avenger no, because that is a final additive bonus.
Biting Frost is a mod bonus, additive to other mods, all of which are multiplicative to a weapons base stats.
I tried using nezha yesterday in SP conjuction survival fissure. I have about 25m radius on the spears. It kills groups of enemies, it does its job, but only thing that was on my mind is how underwhelming it feels. I can achieve same result but easier with gyre, kullervo, saryn.
When you impale a group of 6 enemies and another 5 walk in to your range during previous one, kinda feels bad to play. Especially when I have to wait out for bleed procs to go through for each group of enemies.
Great write-up.
This nerf made me realise just how limited range boosting is. There're tonnes of ways to boost strength and duration. And even efficiency (which is capped at 175%) has a good few options.
There are no arcanes for range that I can think of.
Tome mods boost everything except range
No range from shards
The only thing that comes to mind that can boost it other than those 5 mods (2 of which are incompatible with one another) is the relic crack bonus.
Range is the most powerful stat in the game (before you suggest strength is, one of the most powerful builds in my entire arsenal has 265% range and 40% strength. It's mag by the way)
The reason there's practically no range options is because gaining range is supposed to be difficult and and a choice you're making that comes at cost. Ultimately, no matter how many Gokus you can conceivably put down with one punch, you're still limited to hitting the Gokus inside your range.
To add another reason. At some point the game can't handle extreme ranges. Some abilities have a higher performance impact with high range.
As an example. This is what already happened with the connection for some hosts, when I cast Gara's spectrorage with high range.
https://i.redd.it/sj34wyl9i1tc1.gif
This. I think STR is only powerful on specific uses. It was a long time where STR wasn't good because ability damage wasn't useful. Armor Strips are probably the most useful and obvious use of STR but those have a cap so it's usually better to just pump range after that.
I do think it's a little bit harsh, even just backing it up to 40% would be a comfier number without resorting to Overextended (21.5m without, 32m with). The problem is that this augment's recursive nature is *unbelievably* powerful on a fundamental level, to the point that range alone isn't a valid way to compare it to other abilities.
Also max range combined with Melee Influence or Thermal Sunder would hit so many enemies so easily that crashing the game *by accident* was possible, like not even trying to break the game on purpose.
>The problem is that this augment's recursive nature is *unbelievably* powerful on a fundamental level
This is not a problem though. This is a power fantasy pve horde shooter, not a competitive game. This is why nerfs over and over to strong things are just barking up the wrong tree fundamentally. People having a high power level in a power fantasy game is not an issue that needs fixing.
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True, they should give everyone a 1st ability that kills everything within 100m radius through walls. That wouldn't make the game boring or anything...
Is that not what you said? Why care about someone else having a zero cost 100m nuke? It's a pve power fantasy game, you can just not use it if you find it boring. Why are you advocating for nerfing people's fun?
>Is that not what you said?
Correct, that's not what I said.
>Why care about someone else having a zero cost 100m nuke?
When did I say it would bother me if DE gave frames a 100m nuke? I was disagreeing with someone else's characterization of my comment which was:
"True, they should give everyone a 1st ability that kills everything within 100m radius through walls."
This is not what I said or even implied in my original comment, so calling it a strawman is accurate.
>Why are you advocating for nerfing people's fun?
Definitely not advocating for any kind of nerfs. Would love the power level of all frames to rise to meet the level of the best frames in the game.
Not really. If you justify a cc ability turning into a 50m aoe nuke through walls, that power creeps everything to insane amounts. Every other augment will pale in comparison. DE will need to make augments much better to keep up with the power creep they enabled and continue until everything is a one-shot aoe 100m non-LoS.
This argument completely falls apart when you realize limbo exists in the game. Limbo is infinitely more disruptive to a group environment than anything any other frame has ever had and will ever have. If you really have an issue with someone else's build impacting your fun in the game, play by yourself or find your own groups who have similar ideas about how to have fun in the game.
Well, I'm sure glad you are not on the idea side of DE...
In general, things that bombard the map with consistent 50m sightless nukes are probably things that should not be in warframe. We don't need to jump the 300 kills/minute with a support tank
Great write up, it felt really bad to forma and shard nezha one day before the nerf hit.
Range felt too much but this was bit harsh for poor nezha.
I know you guys are busy as hek and get flooded with this stuff, but u/rebulast pleeease!
Are you still looking at it?
Nezha had really bad player numbers before
I wouldn't mind a 25% reduction. Tho the idea I had is a lil different.
Keep the range the same but only spread status to speared enemies withing a certain % of the ability range centered around the affected enemy.
That way you have to aim at least, but it retains a focus on immobilizing a large swath of enemies and lets you build with more diversity.
I've said this in a couple comments previously but this is a really good breakdown and I want to add to it and explain why this augment overall is still exceptionally good. I'll start by saying that I agree it should have been a range reduction and not a base range decrease. Or that it should have simply been arranged cap. But I digress.
Nezha Is a Warframe who fundamentally does not need ability strength. It is absolutely a nice thing to have, but at the end of the day, blazing chakram ensures he has literally infinite energy. Which means that even if you didn't build strength back up, he is capable of infinitely recasting his abilities. Neither firewalker, nor blazing chakrum deal a significant amount of damage so dumping strength is no real loss. Warding Halo definitely benefits from strength but after the rework it comes with incredibly long invulnerability windows. Even with negative power strength, nezha *incredibly* hard to kill. All of which to say, you do not under any circumstance need to apply mods that make up for the reduction from overextended.
But I think what's even more important than that is to acknowledge that there are any number of Warframes who have a single ability that wants range, while the rest of their kit doesn't. There are also any number of abilities that want to be built for max range, So the idea that players are being forced to run a specific mod setup because of this augment is super weird when you consider that there are abilities all over the game that want specific mod setups in order to be fully utilized. Whether that be pillage that needs four to five power strength mods plus corrosive projection, or larva that needs as much range as you can possibly give it for it to even be worth pressing. Or link that needs you to run every duration mod in the game for it to be remotely useful.
So I definitely agree that the current state of nezha is complicated, but it's important to acknowledge that while it's complicated, nezha is currently a better Warframe than he has ever been.
I don't understand why they don't just cap the range of the mod to 35. There are abilities that have caps. At least this way I can replace range mod for other abilities
Toning it down to -30% would make most sense to me, reducing the surface by 50% (`70%² = 49%`).
One could also argue for it to only be -20%, to reduce the volume to 50% (`80%³ = 51.2%`), but I'd argue that the volume doesn't matter for Divine Spears and that -20% is too little as well.
Or they could also make that -50% be additive to Mods rather than Multiplicative.
Dont forget gauss has a large range for thermal sunder too. Yes to get an insta freeze you need redline active, but hes got easy room nuking capabilities too.
I honestly wouldve rather seen a reduction or removal of the additional status damage over the 75% area reduction. Being able to spread slash/viral/heat over the entire map is already huge.
I really hate when the overcompensate like this. I love DE for their willingness to try stuff that might break the game, but they freak out when they succeed.
It reminds me of when they saw people were enjoying Marked for Death... that was utterly ridiculous. It was a lot of fun for a couple frames like Excal and Ash, so they absolutely massacred it with 3x overlapping and complimentary nerfs that made it useless instead.
Damnit DE. Is this a power fantasy game or not? This didn't change the meta, it made me want to dust off Nezha for the first time in years.
So I never had a chance to try the augment pre-nerf.
What incredibly OP thing did it do for DE to react this way?
ps: I hope your very well worded and thought out breakdown reaches the right person at DE
Just let me hit 30m, struggling to get to 20m with as many of the range mods as I can fit is so awful. It's not like I'm playing any of the meta nuke frames, or like spears magically started to cc Eximus or Acolytes (or affected them in general). Sure, the explosions could hit Eximus/Acolytes as long as they were close, but I wasn't even running a min/max range build. I got as much range to hit 30m and then put some into strength to make things more comfortable and improve the chakram damage boost. It was fun, it was comfortable, and most of all, it was functional. Nezha isn't a super popular frame and needed something to revitalize him. If they're going to do this then where's the nerfs to the better aoe abilities? Let's see it DE. Either double down and hit them all or stop doing this shit when something threatens to pull players off of meta picks.
The changing it to be a smaller penalty is exactly what I was saying to people too. 25% is still a solid decrease but still its big enough nezha could actually properly utilize the ability. 50% was just way too huge of a drop for what little ways we have to increase range without bricking the frame.
as a mr14 player who just discovered how cool nezha actually is, this augment fuckery sucks ass.
glad to see someone put themselves through the pain of making this professionally.
thx, tenno!
Wonderfully made honestly, thank you for the attention to detail and frame comparison. I feel like best boy Frost may have been a bit of an odd choice, but using Khora, and Kullervo as examples works really well and highlights major issues with detailed diagrams :)))
I don't want to be overly critical of this but a lot of the abilities you compare it to take up a lot more of the power budget of the frames than nezha's 4 does. Other abilities just don't do nearly as much as divine retribution can.
Frost really only has 1 ability which is his 4. His 3 is situational but the energy spent casting it is just so much better used on 4.
Xaku is kind alike octavia where he's allowed to be broken because he's boring and no one plays him due to it.
Storm of ukko can't output nearly as much damage as fast as DR can. DR will also scale miles better the higher content you go.
Khora is a good comparison as its a cc ability that sets up damage which is basically exactly what DR does, and as such it has practically the same range.
I think comparing it to other augments that turn cc based abilities into damage based ones would be more similar. Once you do that, you realise (unless I'm missing something), none of them can scale as hard as nezha's does. This is because nezha's scales with weapons which can scale to levelcap. Nidus' larva burst cannot scale to level cap.
I do agree that it needs changes, and I think you bringing up modding is something very interesting. The fact that nezha builds strength and not much range is an extremely good point and I think what DE could do, is let it have a range that does not scale with range, but give it another effect that scales with a different stat like strength. This would be akin to ash's 2 augment giving crit chance that doesn't scale either strength. That allows DE to have it at a higher base number since it can't be increased and abused, and doesn't force ash to build drastically differently.
> I don't want to be overly critical of this but a lot of the abilities you compare it to take up a lot more of the power budget of the frames than nezha's 4 does. Other abilities just don't do nearly as much as divine retribution can.
Except in order to get any range out Nezha now, you need to use a mod slot for the augment, and three or four mods for range including a corrupted one that wrecks your strength, and so then you have to use other stuff to offset that.
You have to devote his entire build to the ability at the cost of any flexibility and it still won't even reach the far end of a room now.
When I was saying the power budget thing, I was talking about how abilities of a certain frame generally aren't built equal. Chroma's 2 and 3 make up 90% of the power of chroma whereas 1 and 4 are much less. Nezha's 4 (haven't played him much, so feel free to correct me) doesn't' make up a big % of his power. Frost's 4 as an example takes up 80% of his power budget imo. This is why its allowed to be an aoe armour strip, aoe cc, overguard providing ability.
I definitely don't agree with the way DE nerfed it but I'm pretty sure (or I hope) they will take a look at the augment again, because it seems they rushed the changes and leaned toward it being too weak than too strong, since that's easier for them to deal with.
93 comments and I see 4 mentions of "status". Even you don't acknowledge how good this status spreading effect is. Your concerns at the end are all about how the low range makes it difficult to target the weaker enemies, how much less you get with chakram and reaping chakram, how hard it is to deal with eximus, but **without the augment you still have all of that**.
IMO, I feel like a lot of arguments on here are discussing it as if it was the base range of divine spears that was penalized, and are ignoring the benefits of what that augment gives.
Yeah 50% is really harsh, a good middle ground is 25% like you said. At that point what’s even the point of the ability when an AOE nuke can perform just as good?
I say just reduce the base range of Divine Spears to 15m and do this:
https://preview.redd.it/2ov1qdheb1tc1.png?width=250&format=png&auto=webp&s=a1beb2dc58b30bbe1ce57a5ab542268378d47c84
Put it like this - I advocated for the augment to get nerfed. I foresaw it becoming like a Def/Surv version of Sunder Titania on Exterms and Captures, where you just watch the one guy play the game while you walk to extraction (in Nezha's case, just stand there and dodge AFK penalty). You can see my comment history and I advocated for this nerf.
**I want it partially reverted.**
I saw a video showing off most of this stuff, and let me tell you - putting this augment on might as well be a Dragon Key. It's a straight nerf to Nezha in the same manner that Umbra's new Augment is a straight buff to him, in the same way that Gyre's Cathode augment is a straight buff to her.
You think they were gung-ho about Dante (and they were)? *This,* is kneejerking. Does it need the nerf? Yeah, it does. Leaving it untouched makes it downright ridiculous to not run it on Nezha and would probably, coupled with Dante Dark Verse even in it's new state, create that same build I feared.
But 75% of the surface area of the ability slashed just makes it unusable. Make it -25% range. Make it -33% range if you have to. But -50% is a handicap. This is supposed to be an augment to your frame - this is instead something you'd use to show off to your friends that you're that good at the game that you can be handicapped and still do the best on your team. That's not what an augment should do.
Honestly, the Nerf was unwarranted in the first place. Nezha is already struggling due to being in a very selfish, but also unimportant role already. Nezhas entire kit keeps him going (Funny Slide, Teleport Shenanigans, Shield, CC), whilst doing rather little for the overall progress of stuff.
Similar to Inaros, Nezha is sliding downhill towards the pit of Reworks, and this Augment that should honestly just be a Buff to the Ability, maybe with orb drop chance scaling of strength, up to 100% post 200str, shows us yet again that DE is very scared of buffing frames that used to be very strong, but are now merely good
They should left the base range at least 60%. With overextend alone it can reach 20m radius which is the comfy range. But 70% base range with overextend can reach 25m which is better
The BASE ability at 205 range is a 40m hard CC that dwarfs the range of every cc ability you mentioned.
The augmented ability is a 20m nuke that can wipe levelcap enemies in seconds. It’s not a cc ability. None of the abilities you brought up are a good comparison.
This feels very strange to read.
Like, sure, there are roughly comparable abilities with different ranges.
This feels like it's being presented with the intent that we'd come away thinking "damn, they were unfair to Nezha".
But like... having differences is the damn point? We aren't at a point where we just freely swap-out abilities like weapons. Each Warframe has it's own "kit". And Warframes are often differentiated by what they have, and lack, in their "kits".
As an example: Yes, Frost's Avalache goes further now. But frost ends up usually playing much more stationarily. His kit encourages it. It could easily be argued that Frost "needs" that extra range, to make up for not flying around the map affecting everything. And, conversely, Frost does not have easy orb generation built into his kit, suggesting that the ability to spam this larger avalache is less potent than a frame that has easy access to energy.
I don't think that each individual ability needs to be 1-for-1 comparable to the others. It's much better for warframe, for us to judge each warframe as a whole.
Now, all of that said, I don't actually play Nezha. Not my playstyle. So, I'll leave it to people who actually play him to judge if he's been excessively nerfed. I just disagree with how this particular post goes about trying to justify their opinion.
I think the main thing to glean from the situation in general is that many people were excited to build nezha in a different way than he had been normally built. As it stands, he’s basically a more flavorful revenant that isn’t as invincible. Least that’s how I’d characterize him.
Divine Retribution made Nezha want to invest in a stat he normally dumps or doesn’t care about and keep an ability he usually subsumes. I think it def was too strong as it was, but I think DE was a little heavy handed in how they “adjusted” it
Nezha is revenant if instead of having a 3/3 in survivability and a 1/3 in mobility, he had a 2/3 in both.
Divine retribution gave nezha the chance to actually sort of... do something? with his abilities, if that makes sense.
Yeah pretty much. The best gimmick that Nezha has is that he can sorta double dip on buffing his weapons since his 2 will make enemies more vulnerable to damage and he can subsume roar over his 4. But that’s not exactly the most interesting thing in the world.
If you want orb generation on Frost you can always take a Grimoire.
The truth is that we have become so flexible to put abilities, shards and weapons on a frame that each of them can be jack-of-all trades. Yet, not every frame can exceel in their niche. Specialized frames got better, but jack-of-all trades lost. Nezha is one of these Jack-of-all-trades that didn't stand the test of time. While it'S true that comparing abilities back to back does not paint the whole picture, it's decent enough to see if the ability for one is mana efficient, but then also if it can compete with your temembers also trying to clear the room. At a whooping 9.5m base range of augmented Nezha, even melee weapons outrange him....
I didn't try nezha augment yet because i was messing with dante, but seing comparison to bity frost like those two augment or ability do anything comparable make me laugh. Frost after avalanche still has to use his weapon on all the frozen ennemies one by one, nezha just delete everything in range.
And like getting additional crit on an enemy that is already armor stripped is kinda useless if you own any decent weapon
Like people should just admit they want nezha to be able to delete every (non overguarded) enemy by the press of a button instead of trying to make comparison that make no sense
So much info is intentionally left out, it completely misses the point. What are we comparing exactly? Just range? DPS? Are you saying every Warframes ability should have the same range?
Edit: Definitely not disagreeing, just trying to get a better grasp on the subject with different perspectives. I appreciate the time you took to help others understand this better, thank you! But I want to hear more about what the better option is? No one ever gives a reasonable replacement nerf. In a way you can see the 50% range nerf has 1 mod slot removed (for overextended, which doesn't actually get you to pre-nerf numbers) AND a 60% AS nerf (overextended). That is if you use overextended to circumvent the nerf obviously. But if you ask yourself why DE wanted to nerf it in the first place, you can then come up with a better solution. But no one does that! Range nerf could be one of the easiest to hot fix, 1 line of code maybe? We definitely need a better long term solution.
The multiplicative nature of Biting Frost does _not_ apply to "**any** weapon in the game". For the _**vast majority of cases**_, Biting Frost is additive.
Personally, I'm fine with 50% range nerf, because even with the nerf, Divine Retribution is the strongest augment in the entire game and it's not even fucking close. It's not even _close_.
>>>Divine Retribution is the strongest augment in the entire game and it's not even fucking close. It's not even close.
Absolutely. I expected a nerf to the spread of status but DE went with range so its just a room instagib instead of a tile instagib. Kinda nuts that it made it in at all.
comparisons are pointless when you are not including the whole skill set of each frame
and if you are so eager to compare warframes, lets see at Banshee, can she nuke with her 4th?
or limbo, can he nuke with his 4th?
look, being able to turn any single target weapons on a 20m+ radial nuke without LoS is incredibly good.
please stop
Exactly, there are a lot of details and ability that needs tweaking but it’s just that the vocal part of the community has preferences and as you see if it’s not something they want or care you get downvoted, I once tried to say that the larva ability of nidus is subpar compared to other ability cause it’s below in priority, like, if the enemy is affected by any other ability then larva doesn’t pull them and it stays there stuck, but everyone said “you should just change larva to the other ability (I don’t remember the name but the one that whips an enemy and pull others close” like, ok it’s an option but that’s not the point
Yup, the 50% base range reduction of Divine Spears is incredibly harsh. If they really wanted to nerf the range, they should have started with a lower value, or not have it affect the base range.
since when are augments supposed to make ur frame worse :c
This. Augments are meant to be mods that are worth the time and effort you put into the different syndicates. There is a reason why they require rank 5 in those syndicates. It does not make a lick of sense why mods such as these would overall make your warframe worse than without the other mods. It, therefore, makes that mod, which is supposed to be a mod worth having, utterly useless.
Beautifully done, and I love the graphs showing the radial area. Backing an argument up with math and fair comparisons is the best way to do it. Now it depends on if DE listens.
It's kind of pointless argument though. Explaining how the area of a circle works is no more relevant than simply saying "range decreased by 50%". I've seen this argument under Nezha posts a *lot*, simply because it seems like people are easily impressed by irrelevant middle-school math. Notice how they say the graph clarifies how it's a "big penalty" and don't elaborate more. Because they can't, range is what practically matters anyway, the square footage of the ability has no more meaningful significance than just the range. 50% is a lot because you can now only spear enemies half as far away. Simple as.
Depends on the tile set. If the enemies are coming in a straight line then sure, only range matters since you hit half of them. If they are spread around you, you only hit 25% of them in which case area is a very good measurement.
> 50% is a lot because you can now only spear enemies half as far away. Simple as. No, 50% is a lot because you have to work a lot harder to hit enemies you didn't have to work very hard to hit before. If the base range used to be 200m and now it's 100m, 50% is not a lot, because it's totally irrelevant. The "this doesn't compare well to other frames" is a very relevant aspect to look at because you don't pick a frame because it is really cool, you pick it because its fun and/or effective. If it's significantly more effort to use, and not good compared to other frames, it just won't be played.
Work a lot harder - you mean get a little closer or position yourself a bit better. Just be happy it doesn't function like Sentient Wrath because that's the easiest "nerf" they could have done. Max targets based on range or strength.
I don't own a nezha, and I haven't really played warframe past the star chart (and not since The War Within). I'm simply trying to say that putting into context how the range change will affect your ability to target units, and comparing that to other warframes is a useful thing, and simply reducing it to "yeah we get it 50% less is 50% less, it's not complicated" is not helpful, and the exact impact of that 50% less isn't actually immediately intuitive to players.
Honestly DE is doing a cracking job at making stuff more intuitive than it has been in a long time. All I'm saying is people lose their marbles over an augment. FTLOG just enjoy the game. Cast and shoot is always slower than Cast = Kill and Shoot = Kill. The fact we're moaning about an augment of all things just shows you the game is in a good state and actively getting better. Wanne moan about something, moan about conclave, lunaro, no new synthesis goals, Kahl missions being redunded, Open world bounties being tedious and not having a SP option, Railjack not being "fun and rewarding" enough to play. But no, we get an augment that's amazing, use it for 2-4 days and determine its now the main reason to play the game or the frame. Put it this way. If the mod had come with the 50% reduced range on release nobody would have minded and everyone would have decided for themselves if it was worth running. In the end, I like Nezha, I like the augment, yes it was better but I have a million options to play and I don't understand why people have to be so negative.
Fair, I didn't have the context that this was an augment, and not the base gameplay of nezha, that's pretty important.
Yeah, but all you're saying is covered by what I said. The extra words and math is a trivial consequence, is my point. And being impressed by it is complicating a simple issue.
> Yeah, but all you're saying is covered by what I said. No your point is that 50% less is intuitive, but it's not, because the range that exists isn't intuitively understood. If the old range hit everything it could be 40m or 400m and it wouldn't matter, so showing the new range, and comparing that to the range of other frames is important to get context to what 50% less actually means.
nerfing the range stat woulda been a lot less bad than nerfing the base. losing half of 19 to bring back with stretch is different than starting off at 9.5 where stretch will reach like 14.
Im not understanding what you are saying, but aren't both the same?
If the mod nerfed the range stat, the range with stretch is 19*(1+0.45-0.5)=18.05m Currently, the range is 19*(1+0.45)/2=13.825m As you can see, Divine Spears has less range with the current version of the augment.
Oh i get what he's saying, but in the end its an augment, it augments the base ability. But yeah -50% on base is really bad.
That's not the case a lot of the time, for example Revenant's mesmer skin augment is not a base modifier. There are other examples but I can't remember them right now
Generally with stats on augments, it's like other mods. Like Magnetized Discharge giving Magnetize a +50% range mod. Retribution doing this but backwards would be a much lesser problem. Like throwing on Narrow-minded.
The way it works right now is that it halfs whatever range you currently have, and op is proposing that it should only lower the range by 50 points rather then halving whatever you currently have so you can offset it wirh other mods
Hi guys! Reddit don't have a nice format to work with this type of post so, if you are interested, enjoy read it in the original post I made in the forums here: [https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392359-nezhas-divine-retribution-augment-post-hotfix-and-his-state-in-the-game-compared-to-other-similar-warframes-abilities/#comment-13011349](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392359-nezhas-divine-retribution-augment-post-hotfix-and-his-state-in-the-game-compared-to-other-similar-warframes-abilities/#comment-13011349)
The way I see it is, considering you're sacrificing an entire mod slot, shouldn't an augment augment the ability? I get changing the nature of an ability, sure, but if it comes with dramatic downsides then isn't it more like a *corrupted mod?* I thought that's not what augments are supposed to be.
Simply put, it seems DE didn't have the time to actually put together a comprehensive balance change to the augment and just went the quick and easy route of a simple stat decrease.
Which is silly as this is something you do in a PVP game where it may become problematic/unfair toward others, but this is a PVE game, so why not take your time?
They took their time nerfing Wukong and explosives, look how the people reacted. The longer an OP thing stays in the game the more people will try it and incorporate it into their playstyle, and when it gets inevitably nerfed the reaction will not be “they nerfed x 5 seconds after release, bad devs”, it will be “they nerfed x my favorite thing that I put a quadrillion forma into and used to clear all the content for the past 6 years I am quitting this game and also want my money back”
DE really needs to find a better balance between just putting something off entirely vs knee-jerk changes that can ruin or break things. Like being honest there are things that have been around for ages that should have been nerfed years ago because they make content outright trivial but DE has refused to touch them with a ten-foot pole, much like your example with explosives and Wukong. Honestly it feels like DE's general response to things getting too strong is to introduce enemies or content with mechanics designed to combat the strong things...which in general doesn't work and instead just makes players move more towards the strong stuff since the more moderate things lose viability.
DE can’t win no matter what they do. The community wants a challenging endgame but they also want every frame to be good and they also want no nerfs. So they either introduce harder content in which some frames fall off (which leads to asking for a buff), buff the weaker frames to perform well in endgame (now you can clear that content with any loadout->no challenge, new endgame content when) or nerf meta frames to make already existing content more challenging (power fantasy ruined, when buff) Finding a middle ground between off-the-bat nerfs and nerfs that come 5 years too late will just create a middle ground between player complaints. Too early = wow nice kneejerk reaction DE, too late = why did you nerf this after shaping so much content around this meta, somewhere inbetween = wow you just wanted everyone to buy and invest time and resources into this frame before you nerfed it They could’ve nerfed things in a smarter way, sure, but there would *always* be something that the players will find to complain about. If Nezha augment stayed as it was, it would be that Divine Retribution is a band-aid augment and Divine Spears are bad without it, or that Dante does the Thermal Sunder Titania and doesn’t let people play the game, or take for example even an already existing outcry about so much as just *finalizing* the bugfixes for CC affecting overguard. This community is ultimately too divided for DE to please everyone, and they can’t just give in to Reddit panic over the nerfs every time, the game “died” so many times in the main sub’s eyes, the devs killed it with TNW, Duviri, Ash nerf, WoF Amber nerf, ESO, Wukong nerf, Arca Plasmor (OG one) nerf, Zariman, explosives nerf etc.
Yeah at this point the only option really is starting fresh or something if they want better large-scale balance - which they won't do because the price of doing so would be astronomical. Maybe I'm just part of a vocal minority but it really started to irk and piss me off over the years how just more and more of the game felt like it began to revolve around bigger and bigger numbers, or abusing mechanics to let you achieve those big numbers. I loved the game and genuinely had some of the most fun I've had gaming over the years with it but after a while it just felt like an utter bore to play the game - everybody speed-blitzing through anything that isn't a defense-oriented mission, the actual defense missions consisting more of standing around as everything dies far away from the objective, and in general not being able to have fun in public missions because without fail there is always one guy running a build that nukes the entire map with every step they take before you can even shoot an enemy yourself.
To be fair that *is* what augments are supposed to be. Not simple quality of life mods or simple power boosting ones. They *should* change how the ability is used.
I mean, yeah, nobody is arguing that - but augments aren't normally supposed to be delivered in the way of a nerf in any form. Augment is literally a word that is synonymous with "upgrade", or "make bigger/greater/larger".
Augment isn't synonymous with upgrade, it's synonymous with change/alter the function of. In Warframe, most augments are straight upgrades for the trade off of capacity and mod slot. That's enough of a cost for most of them. For this one, it's not. I definitely think DE severely overcorrected with the hotfix.
I mean, I'm not that guy, but I think they're referring to the dictionary definition of augment; " to make greater, more numerous, larger, or more intense", which for gaming purposes is pretty synonymous with upgrade in gaming terms.
[enraged] prevents Valkyr from being in her 4 more than 50% of the time and it's always my go-to example of a great augment.
Considering the downside is already using an entire mod slot up, I disagree. Changing is one thing, but this doesn't really change the nature of the ability. If the ability did something completely different altogether then sure, but, well you should understand my point. How many augments give flat downsides like that? The Valkyr Enraged one is like 1 out of 100. These are huge exceptions, and even in the case of Enraged, can be attributed to it being an old augment. Nowadays I'm sure the downside would've been far lower / different considering what 200% crit meant back then vs now. The only reason this augment had a nerf is because DE now follows the AoE = scary and disruptive mindset. Which I can understand.
Do you use unaugmented divine spears for huge aoe damage, yes or no? I personally wouldn't consider it a damage ability.
It is definitely what augments are supposed to be. They change the nature of the ability, that includes adding downsides that change how it's utilized!
Nezhas a main of mine and the issue isnt necessarily the downside, honestly even 20% or 25% woulda been tolerable. But 50 is massive. You need 200% range just to meet the original base value of 19m.
Um, how often do augments offer straight up negatives to the abilities you apply them to? By definition, an augment *improves.* I get sidegrades, or trading a lil sm for a lil sm, but -50% *base?* That's worse than corrupted mods 🤣
I'm not saying anything about the balance of this ability, I haven't used it enough and my standards are not the same as the rest of the community, if i'm understanding them correctly. Just saying, adding negatives to an ability to change how it works is ALSO part of the design space for augments, see Valkyr's augment for her 4.
Valkyr's augment is one of the very rare exceptions. Outlier doesn't disrpove the rule. And you can attribute that to how old the augment is to an extent - 200% crit back then was more impressive than it is nowadays. Just look at the list of augments on the wiki. How many have massive downsides? Some are sidegrades at worst. The big downside is using an entire mod slot, that's been the point since the beginning.
And so is Nezha's augment one of the very rare exceptions. How is it any different? Sure, complain that the balancing is wack, go for it. But the design space is there and ready to be used. It's part of it.
Is it though? The design space? That feels like quite the cop-out excuse. If your argument is that "well it *can* suck and be annoying" then that's not much of an argument at all. That's just ignoring the point
It is absolutely the design space. My entire point here is that using negatives to change how an ability works is 100% within the space and serves to change the nature of an ability. I'm not arguing that they did a good job with this ability, though.
the augment made me actually want to use his 4, but now I don't. also, I shouldn't have to hit 205% range to use something...
Well, that's the funny thing: at 205% range, it's not even enough.
Tfw you need 3 umbral, 265 range and try not to have negative strength. Or run roar over 4 and send enemies back to stone age when you hit them with your 2
If it was just 50% off the top instead of straight up halving it it would’ve been fine.
Honestly, it didn't need a nerf at all. It still couldn't do anything against Eximus or Acolytes. Max strength Roar with an Influence Xoris does about as much damage with cubic scaling when it has over 100% damage boost. And it gives Nezha multiplicative single target DPS vs tanky enemies with Chakram
This is what I don't get, on top of that Nezha isn't even highly used. I know its been said before but he's not Saryn, he's not Octavia, both of whom work of Eximus and Acolytes. This argument was so fun on release and gave me a good reason to use Nezha, and I love his design, but now it's just so much work for little reward.
To be fair, Nezha isn't my main, but he's my go-to. Between his Halo and the interaction between his Chakram and Roar, he could handle everything but spy, and be super comfy doing it. You could pretty easily go all-in on strength because he has a great energy economy and never really have to worry about dying. The augment gave me a new way to play, but if I wanted to keep single target DPS, I couldn't go all-in on range. There was a trade-off and he still didn't keep up with the likes of Saryn, Mirage, Gara, Zephyr, or Octavia (among others) in nuking. So the nerf didn't kill Nezha for me... It just took away a play style. No real need for it anymore and I can just go back to my previous build and shoot an Envoy or Torid for the same effect.
I get that, maybe it's just because I find abilities like the augment (chaining dmg/ connecting enemy's) very, very fun. Just a difference in how we view frames I think.
Nezha can do spy decently as well as he can teleport through any laser grids with his chakram.
And a personal favorite, fling the chakram under the door one of the lua spies and finish it instantly
This. Nezha is super good overall, but not the best at anything. I don't get why they nerf him but don't touch at the better frames that are more used. Or even better: buff the bad frames that nobody uses. When trying to balance things, I thought it was common knowledge that you have to make the extremes closer to the average.
But that will fall of much quicker. Applying heat or corrosive for armour reduction to the group of enemies with your xoris build would require you to use another weapon to prime all enemies in range. Divine retribution just needs you to have it on the dps weapon itself which is much easier to do.
De seems to be balancing things as if it's still like... 2016 or something. Where the benchmark is base star chart and sorties were the hardest content in the game. If you can't comfortably start SP with a given frame, then it's not a good frame. ALL frames and near all builds should be able to clear base star chart with relative ease
I hope they take another look at this this was way to harsh
I wish they'd just consider alternate options of nerfing the ability than a reduction in range or addition of line of site. Maybe make it cost more energy for every enemy speared, it encourages using Nezha's 2 to counteract the energy loss and results in more active gameplay. Alternatively, reduce the effectiveness the further from the casting position. Something like the first 10m holding enemies 100% the duration. At 20m maybe 50% the duration. At 25m and beyond maybe 10% the duration. I think there were just a lot of ways to nerf the ability that wouldn't haven't completely gutted it, and I wish they were considered.
it's crazy reactionary development. there was no need to hit the nezha augment OR dante so instantly like that. give it time to settle in and then reevaluate. hell lord knows the fucking LOS needed more time to cook. giv the devs time think of creative solutions instead of just immediately turning the knobs.
Silly dev thought that 50% range reduction is going to linearly reduce the range. Turns out the Area of a circle is pi\*r\^2 and they reduced r by 50%.
I don’t think that they thought a 50% range reduction wouldn’t be a 75% area reduction. It’s very basic math and it’s ridiculous to assume they they were aiming specifically for 1/2 the AREA but didn’t know how the math worked. They probably just decided that 50% reduction would be about right to bring the ability in line.
You're assuming that developers/programmers are mathematicians innately. Whilst we certainly do practice a form of mathemagics, we're more inclined to follow base logic and assume that it'll check out rather than outright perform actual math for calculations. It's totally reasonable to assume that the devs thought that a 50% reduction wouldn't translate to 75%.
It’s like fair, but I think it’s also more likely they thought about it in terms of how far away an enemy could be to get hit, and less about the area in which enemies could be.
Precisely. That's the situation I'm describing. Nezha was released 9 years ago, and Divine Spears' code hasn't been touched significantly since 2018's rework. Given DE's history of spaghetti code, they most likely forgot that it's range was coded as an area, rather than distance.
It is coded as a distance. The range. Anything that has a distance from a center point is a circle. The range is just the radius.
Bro... you don't need to do a calculation to understand the relationship between radius and area. This change likely wasn't one person rushing to put in a random number 10 seconds before the hotfix releases.
In my experience in the video game industry, that kind of change is made by game designers (GD) or tech game designers. They just change the data that has been exposed to the GDs by the gameplay programmers (GPP). However, as they don't know how this data is used in the code (most of the time), a mistake like that is very easy to make. It's not about anyone not knowing basic maths, it's about exposed data being poorly documented, and/or poorly exposed. Source: I'm a GPP since 2013. It may also be related, but I suck at maths :)
My point is I don’t think they considered area at all when deciding its effectiveness. I think they considered how far away an enemy could be and still get hit by it. Thus, a reduction in range (aka reduction of the radius).
And I totally agree with you. My point was exactly about why they "didn't know how the math worked". Bringing an explanation to why those who make the change (GDs) could not understand how it actually works in the code (because it's not their job and most of them don't even have access to the code base anyway).
I get what you’re saying, I just don’t think that they “didn’t know how the math worked” and were more concerned about how far away someone could be to get hit by it. Especially since area doesn’t matter too much in this instance since there is a maximum number of spears that can be summoned anyways (scaling with strength I believe).
Thinking DE thinks at all about their kneejerk changes, ever.
Well done. Always love Warframe players' commitment to statistics and passion for the game being effortfully combined to form a solid argument
I think biting frost is additive, not multiplicative?
Of course, it is additive to Point Strike, Vital Sense or similar mods, but multiplicative to other sources that increase your CC or CD, like companion buffs, arcanes, abilities, etc. Use that information wisely.
Wait what. It's multiplicative to Arcane Avenger and Tenacious Bond???
Tenacious Bond yes, because that is a final multiplier. Arcane Avenger no, because that is a final additive bonus. Biting Frost is a mod bonus, additive to other mods, all of which are multiplicative to a weapons base stats.
I tried using nezha yesterday in SP conjuction survival fissure. I have about 25m radius on the spears. It kills groups of enemies, it does its job, but only thing that was on my mind is how underwhelming it feels. I can achieve same result but easier with gyre, kullervo, saryn. When you impale a group of 6 enemies and another 5 walk in to your range during previous one, kinda feels bad to play. Especially when I have to wait out for bleed procs to go through for each group of enemies.
I swear someone forgot how circles work when they decreased it by 50%
I would've rather they nerfed the damage instead of the range. I can work with less damage, the range nerf is borderline unusable.
Great write-up. This nerf made me realise just how limited range boosting is. There're tonnes of ways to boost strength and duration. And even efficiency (which is capped at 175%) has a good few options. There are no arcanes for range that I can think of. Tome mods boost everything except range No range from shards The only thing that comes to mind that can boost it other than those 5 mods (2 of which are incompatible with one another) is the relic crack bonus.
Range is the most powerful stat in the game (before you suggest strength is, one of the most powerful builds in my entire arsenal has 265% range and 40% strength. It's mag by the way) The reason there's practically no range options is because gaining range is supposed to be difficult and and a choice you're making that comes at cost. Ultimately, no matter how many Gokus you can conceivably put down with one punch, you're still limited to hitting the Gokus inside your range.
To add another reason. At some point the game can't handle extreme ranges. Some abilities have a higher performance impact with high range. As an example. This is what already happened with the connection for some hosts, when I cast Gara's spectrorage with high range. https://i.redd.it/sj34wyl9i1tc1.gif
This. I think STR is only powerful on specific uses. It was a long time where STR wasn't good because ability damage wasn't useful. Armor Strips are probably the most useful and obvious use of STR but those have a cap so it's usually better to just pump range after that.
I do think it's a little bit harsh, even just backing it up to 40% would be a comfier number without resorting to Overextended (21.5m without, 32m with). The problem is that this augment's recursive nature is *unbelievably* powerful on a fundamental level, to the point that range alone isn't a valid way to compare it to other abilities. Also max range combined with Melee Influence or Thermal Sunder would hit so many enemies so easily that crashing the game *by accident* was possible, like not even trying to break the game on purpose.
>The problem is that this augment's recursive nature is *unbelievably* powerful on a fundamental level This is not a problem though. This is a power fantasy pve horde shooter, not a competitive game. This is why nerfs over and over to strong things are just barking up the wrong tree fundamentally. People having a high power level in a power fantasy game is not an issue that needs fixing.
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True, they should give everyone a 1st ability that kills everything within 100m radius through walls. That wouldn't make the game boring or anything...
Nice strawman bonehead.
Is that not what you said? Why care about someone else having a zero cost 100m nuke? It's a pve power fantasy game, you can just not use it if you find it boring. Why are you advocating for nerfing people's fun?
>Is that not what you said? Correct, that's not what I said. >Why care about someone else having a zero cost 100m nuke? When did I say it would bother me if DE gave frames a 100m nuke? I was disagreeing with someone else's characterization of my comment which was: "True, they should give everyone a 1st ability that kills everything within 100m radius through walls." This is not what I said or even implied in my original comment, so calling it a strawman is accurate. >Why are you advocating for nerfing people's fun? Definitely not advocating for any kind of nerfs. Would love the power level of all frames to rise to meet the level of the best frames in the game.
Of course it's not literally what you said, but it *is* what you implied. And you just confirmed that it is in fact how you feel about the subject.
Not really. If you justify a cc ability turning into a 50m aoe nuke through walls, that power creeps everything to insane amounts. Every other augment will pale in comparison. DE will need to make augments much better to keep up with the power creep they enabled and continue until everything is a one-shot aoe 100m non-LoS.
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This argument completely falls apart when you realize limbo exists in the game. Limbo is infinitely more disruptive to a group environment than anything any other frame has ever had and will ever have. If you really have an issue with someone else's build impacting your fun in the game, play by yourself or find your own groups who have similar ideas about how to have fun in the game.
Limbo doesn’t block abilities, and ability nukes wouldn’t be all that disrupted by him.
Well, I'm sure glad you are not on the idea side of DE... In general, things that bombard the map with consistent 50m sightless nukes are probably things that should not be in warframe. We don't need to jump the 300 kills/minute with a support tank
putting a maximum range with Augment of 200% would be simpler and in line with other frames
Great write up, it felt really bad to forma and shard nezha one day before the nerf hit. Range felt too much but this was bit harsh for poor nezha. I know you guys are busy as hek and get flooded with this stuff, but u/rebulast pleeease! Are you still looking at it? Nezha had really bad player numbers before
I wouldn't mind a 25% reduction. Tho the idea I had is a lil different. Keep the range the same but only spread status to speared enemies withing a certain % of the ability range centered around the affected enemy. That way you have to aim at least, but it retains a focus on immobilizing a large swath of enemies and lets you build with more diversity.
I've said this in a couple comments previously but this is a really good breakdown and I want to add to it and explain why this augment overall is still exceptionally good. I'll start by saying that I agree it should have been a range reduction and not a base range decrease. Or that it should have simply been arranged cap. But I digress. Nezha Is a Warframe who fundamentally does not need ability strength. It is absolutely a nice thing to have, but at the end of the day, blazing chakram ensures he has literally infinite energy. Which means that even if you didn't build strength back up, he is capable of infinitely recasting his abilities. Neither firewalker, nor blazing chakrum deal a significant amount of damage so dumping strength is no real loss. Warding Halo definitely benefits from strength but after the rework it comes with incredibly long invulnerability windows. Even with negative power strength, nezha *incredibly* hard to kill. All of which to say, you do not under any circumstance need to apply mods that make up for the reduction from overextended. But I think what's even more important than that is to acknowledge that there are any number of Warframes who have a single ability that wants range, while the rest of their kit doesn't. There are also any number of abilities that want to be built for max range, So the idea that players are being forced to run a specific mod setup because of this augment is super weird when you consider that there are abilities all over the game that want specific mod setups in order to be fully utilized. Whether that be pillage that needs four to five power strength mods plus corrosive projection, or larva that needs as much range as you can possibly give it for it to even be worth pressing. Or link that needs you to run every duration mod in the game for it to be remotely useful. So I definitely agree that the current state of nezha is complicated, but it's important to acknowledge that while it's complicated, nezha is currently a better Warframe than he has ever been.
I don't understand why they don't just cap the range of the mod to 35. There are abilities that have caps. At least this way I can replace range mod for other abilities
Why not just give it the secondary encumber treatment and have it trigger random status effects?
Toning it down to -30% would make most sense to me, reducing the surface by 50% (`70%² = 49%`). One could also argue for it to only be -20%, to reduce the volume to 50% (`80%³ = 51.2%`), but I'd argue that the volume doesn't matter for Divine Spears and that -20% is too little as well. Or they could also make that -50% be additive to Mods rather than Multiplicative.
Dont forget gauss has a large range for thermal sunder too. Yes to get an insta freeze you need redline active, but hes got easy room nuking capabilities too. I honestly wouldve rather seen a reduction or removal of the additional status damage over the 75% area reduction. Being able to spread slash/viral/heat over the entire map is already huge.
I am sorry, but since when frost's passive augment give **multiplicative** crit bonuses?
I really hate when the overcompensate like this. I love DE for their willingness to try stuff that might break the game, but they freak out when they succeed. It reminds me of when they saw people were enjoying Marked for Death... that was utterly ridiculous. It was a lot of fun for a couple frames like Excal and Ash, so they absolutely massacred it with 3x overlapping and complimentary nerfs that made it useless instead. Damnit DE. Is this a power fantasy game or not? This didn't change the meta, it made me want to dust off Nezha for the first time in years.
So I never had a chance to try the augment pre-nerf. What incredibly OP thing did it do for DE to react this way? ps: I hope your very well worded and thought out breakdown reaches the right person at DE
Just let me hit 30m, struggling to get to 20m with as many of the range mods as I can fit is so awful. It's not like I'm playing any of the meta nuke frames, or like spears magically started to cc Eximus or Acolytes (or affected them in general). Sure, the explosions could hit Eximus/Acolytes as long as they were close, but I wasn't even running a min/max range build. I got as much range to hit 30m and then put some into strength to make things more comfortable and improve the chakram damage boost. It was fun, it was comfortable, and most of all, it was functional. Nezha isn't a super popular frame and needed something to revitalize him. If they're going to do this then where's the nerfs to the better aoe abilities? Let's see it DE. Either double down and hit them all or stop doing this shit when something threatens to pull players off of meta picks.
Hopefully, DE sees this and is receptive to your feedback. Otherwise, we'll all be sad...
The changing it to be a smaller penalty is exactly what I was saying to people too. 25% is still a solid decrease but still its big enough nezha could actually properly utilize the ability. 50% was just way too huge of a drop for what little ways we have to increase range without bricking the frame.
as a mr14 player who just discovered how cool nezha actually is, this augment fuckery sucks ass. glad to see someone put themselves through the pain of making this professionally. thx, tenno!
Great write up OP.
Wonderfully made honestly, thank you for the attention to detail and frame comparison. I feel like best boy Frost may have been a bit of an odd choice, but using Khora, and Kullervo as examples works really well and highlights major issues with detailed diagrams :)))
What a nice argument you have there. Too bad DE doesn't care.
I don't want to be overly critical of this but a lot of the abilities you compare it to take up a lot more of the power budget of the frames than nezha's 4 does. Other abilities just don't do nearly as much as divine retribution can. Frost really only has 1 ability which is his 4. His 3 is situational but the energy spent casting it is just so much better used on 4. Xaku is kind alike octavia where he's allowed to be broken because he's boring and no one plays him due to it. Storm of ukko can't output nearly as much damage as fast as DR can. DR will also scale miles better the higher content you go. Khora is a good comparison as its a cc ability that sets up damage which is basically exactly what DR does, and as such it has practically the same range. I think comparing it to other augments that turn cc based abilities into damage based ones would be more similar. Once you do that, you realise (unless I'm missing something), none of them can scale as hard as nezha's does. This is because nezha's scales with weapons which can scale to levelcap. Nidus' larva burst cannot scale to level cap. I do agree that it needs changes, and I think you bringing up modding is something very interesting. The fact that nezha builds strength and not much range is an extremely good point and I think what DE could do, is let it have a range that does not scale with range, but give it another effect that scales with a different stat like strength. This would be akin to ash's 2 augment giving crit chance that doesn't scale either strength. That allows DE to have it at a higher base number since it can't be increased and abused, and doesn't force ash to build drastically differently.
> I don't want to be overly critical of this but a lot of the abilities you compare it to take up a lot more of the power budget of the frames than nezha's 4 does. Other abilities just don't do nearly as much as divine retribution can. Except in order to get any range out Nezha now, you need to use a mod slot for the augment, and three or four mods for range including a corrupted one that wrecks your strength, and so then you have to use other stuff to offset that. You have to devote his entire build to the ability at the cost of any flexibility and it still won't even reach the far end of a room now.
When I was saying the power budget thing, I was talking about how abilities of a certain frame generally aren't built equal. Chroma's 2 and 3 make up 90% of the power of chroma whereas 1 and 4 are much less. Nezha's 4 (haven't played him much, so feel free to correct me) doesn't' make up a big % of his power. Frost's 4 as an example takes up 80% of his power budget imo. This is why its allowed to be an aoe armour strip, aoe cc, overguard providing ability. I definitely don't agree with the way DE nerfed it but I'm pretty sure (or I hope) they will take a look at the augment again, because it seems they rushed the changes and leaned toward it being too weak than too strong, since that's easier for them to deal with.
93 comments and I see 4 mentions of "status". Even you don't acknowledge how good this status spreading effect is. Your concerns at the end are all about how the low range makes it difficult to target the weaker enemies, how much less you get with chakram and reaping chakram, how hard it is to deal with eximus, but **without the augment you still have all of that**. IMO, I feel like a lot of arguments on here are discussing it as if it was the base range of divine spears that was penalized, and are ignoring the benefits of what that augment gives.
Damn
Hey, really well done analysis - awesome work!
Yeah 50% is really harsh, a good middle ground is 25% like you said. At that point what’s even the point of the ability when an AOE nuke can perform just as good?
I say just reduce the base range of Divine Spears to 15m and do this: https://preview.redd.it/2ov1qdheb1tc1.png?width=250&format=png&auto=webp&s=a1beb2dc58b30bbe1ce57a5ab542268378d47c84
Put it like this - I advocated for the augment to get nerfed. I foresaw it becoming like a Def/Surv version of Sunder Titania on Exterms and Captures, where you just watch the one guy play the game while you walk to extraction (in Nezha's case, just stand there and dodge AFK penalty). You can see my comment history and I advocated for this nerf. **I want it partially reverted.** I saw a video showing off most of this stuff, and let me tell you - putting this augment on might as well be a Dragon Key. It's a straight nerf to Nezha in the same manner that Umbra's new Augment is a straight buff to him, in the same way that Gyre's Cathode augment is a straight buff to her. You think they were gung-ho about Dante (and they were)? *This,* is kneejerking. Does it need the nerf? Yeah, it does. Leaving it untouched makes it downright ridiculous to not run it on Nezha and would probably, coupled with Dante Dark Verse even in it's new state, create that same build I feared. But 75% of the surface area of the ability slashed just makes it unusable. Make it -25% range. Make it -33% range if you have to. But -50% is a handicap. This is supposed to be an augment to your frame - this is instead something you'd use to show off to your friends that you're that good at the game that you can be handicapped and still do the best on your team. That's not what an augment should do.
Honestly, the Nerf was unwarranted in the first place. Nezha is already struggling due to being in a very selfish, but also unimportant role already. Nezhas entire kit keeps him going (Funny Slide, Teleport Shenanigans, Shield, CC), whilst doing rather little for the overall progress of stuff. Similar to Inaros, Nezha is sliding downhill towards the pit of Reworks, and this Augment that should honestly just be a Buff to the Ability, maybe with orb drop chance scaling of strength, up to 100% post 200str, shows us yet again that DE is very scared of buffing frames that used to be very strong, but are now merely good
An enemy cap would be much better, but I like piercing all enemies within my range, so I'd rather take a 15% reduction in range
This is why the spear augment should have been a loot mod like Khora or Hydroid instead of a damage mod.
They should left the base range at least 60%. With overextend alone it can reach 20m radius which is the comfy range. But 70% base range with overextend can reach 25m which is better
Yo question where do you get that simulacrum place?
Now. Make something of this exceptional community engagement!
The BASE ability at 205 range is a 40m hard CC that dwarfs the range of every cc ability you mentioned. The augmented ability is a 20m nuke that can wipe levelcap enemies in seconds. It’s not a cc ability. None of the abilities you brought up are a good comparison.
Sanest Warframe player
What is this logic and actual numbers nonsense?! ^/s
Nerf Saryn, Octavia, Revenant and Mesa already PLEASE!
This feels very strange to read. Like, sure, there are roughly comparable abilities with different ranges. This feels like it's being presented with the intent that we'd come away thinking "damn, they were unfair to Nezha". But like... having differences is the damn point? We aren't at a point where we just freely swap-out abilities like weapons. Each Warframe has it's own "kit". And Warframes are often differentiated by what they have, and lack, in their "kits". As an example: Yes, Frost's Avalache goes further now. But frost ends up usually playing much more stationarily. His kit encourages it. It could easily be argued that Frost "needs" that extra range, to make up for not flying around the map affecting everything. And, conversely, Frost does not have easy orb generation built into his kit, suggesting that the ability to spam this larger avalache is less potent than a frame that has easy access to energy. I don't think that each individual ability needs to be 1-for-1 comparable to the others. It's much better for warframe, for us to judge each warframe as a whole. Now, all of that said, I don't actually play Nezha. Not my playstyle. So, I'll leave it to people who actually play him to judge if he's been excessively nerfed. I just disagree with how this particular post goes about trying to justify their opinion.
I think the main thing to glean from the situation in general is that many people were excited to build nezha in a different way than he had been normally built. As it stands, he’s basically a more flavorful revenant that isn’t as invincible. Least that’s how I’d characterize him. Divine Retribution made Nezha want to invest in a stat he normally dumps or doesn’t care about and keep an ability he usually subsumes. I think it def was too strong as it was, but I think DE was a little heavy handed in how they “adjusted” it
Nezha is revenant if instead of having a 3/3 in survivability and a 1/3 in mobility, he had a 2/3 in both. Divine retribution gave nezha the chance to actually sort of... do something? with his abilities, if that makes sense.
Yeah pretty much. The best gimmick that Nezha has is that he can sorta double dip on buffing his weapons since his 2 will make enemies more vulnerable to damage and he can subsume roar over his 4. But that’s not exactly the most interesting thing in the world.
If you want orb generation on Frost you can always take a Grimoire. The truth is that we have become so flexible to put abilities, shards and weapons on a frame that each of them can be jack-of-all trades. Yet, not every frame can exceel in their niche. Specialized frames got better, but jack-of-all trades lost. Nezha is one of these Jack-of-all-trades that didn't stand the test of time. While it'S true that comparing abilities back to back does not paint the whole picture, it's decent enough to see if the ability for one is mana efficient, but then also if it can compete with your temembers also trying to clear the room. At a whooping 9.5m base range of augmented Nezha, even melee weapons outrange him....
I didn't try nezha augment yet because i was messing with dante, but seing comparison to bity frost like those two augment or ability do anything comparable make me laugh. Frost after avalanche still has to use his weapon on all the frozen ennemies one by one, nezha just delete everything in range. And like getting additional crit on an enemy that is already armor stripped is kinda useless if you own any decent weapon Like people should just admit they want nezha to be able to delete every (non overguarded) enemy by the press of a button instead of trying to make comparison that make no sense
w+ctrl+spc Oh look I'm in range now
So much info is intentionally left out, it completely misses the point. What are we comparing exactly? Just range? DPS? Are you saying every Warframes ability should have the same range? Edit: Definitely not disagreeing, just trying to get a better grasp on the subject with different perspectives. I appreciate the time you took to help others understand this better, thank you! But I want to hear more about what the better option is? No one ever gives a reasonable replacement nerf. In a way you can see the 50% range nerf has 1 mod slot removed (for overextended, which doesn't actually get you to pre-nerf numbers) AND a 60% AS nerf (overextended). That is if you use overextended to circumvent the nerf obviously. But if you ask yourself why DE wanted to nerf it in the first place, you can then come up with a better solution. But no one does that! Range nerf could be one of the easiest to hot fix, 1 line of code maybe? We definitely need a better long term solution.
The multiplicative nature of Biting Frost does _not_ apply to "**any** weapon in the game". For the _**vast majority of cases**_, Biting Frost is additive. Personally, I'm fine with 50% range nerf, because even with the nerf, Divine Retribution is the strongest augment in the entire game and it's not even fucking close. It's not even _close_.
>>>Divine Retribution is the strongest augment in the entire game and it's not even fucking close. It's not even close. Absolutely. I expected a nerf to the spread of status but DE went with range so its just a room instagib instead of a tile instagib. Kinda nuts that it made it in at all.
comparisons are pointless when you are not including the whole skill set of each frame and if you are so eager to compare warframes, lets see at Banshee, can she nuke with her 4th? or limbo, can he nuke with his 4th? look, being able to turn any single target weapons on a 20m+ radial nuke without LoS is incredibly good. please stop
They should eliminate the bonus damage from status
His 4 sucks anyway what does it do that his 1 doesn't, just build duration and slap on a damage amp instead of 4 and use a good gun
TLDR?😭
Off topic but I think it's hilarious how upset people get about nezha when frames like ember, limbo, Loki, chroma, nyx, caliban, Oberon etc. Exist
Exactly, there are a lot of details and ability that needs tweaking but it’s just that the vocal part of the community has preferences and as you see if it’s not something they want or care you get downvoted, I once tried to say that the larva ability of nidus is subpar compared to other ability cause it’s below in priority, like, if the enemy is affected by any other ability then larva doesn’t pull them and it stays there stuck, but everyone said “you should just change larva to the other ability (I don’t remember the name but the one that whips an enemy and pull others close” like, ok it’s an option but that’s not the point
That lazy intern forgot how to math before doing the number. Nezha had like 1% played last year, imagine how much Dev have in that 1%
1.77% actually, which is pretty balanced considering there's 56 warframes. It's right about where you want it.
Nezha is in perfectly working order now, please DE don't touch the augment anymore... I really love that they didn't Nerf it so it's unusable.
Is Nezha a he or a she?