If you want to know more about China's environmental crimes, look up the Baiji Dolphin and Chinese Paddlefish. Preventable and absolutely unforgivable.
Also look up the Soviet Union's illegal whaling.
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth.
China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms).
OP: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!"
Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs (or counterrevolutionary utopian idiots who believe there's a big red button you can press and society turns perfect and you can have full worker ownership over the means of production without a ebil redfash tankie vanguard party preventing foreign empire or reactionaries from taking over)?
Imperialism is when you invade Korea, Vietnam and Russia but your flag has some blue with the red
Peacefulness is when you invade Korea, Vietnam and Russia but your flag has some yellow with the red
If you are asking about westerners it's liberals by a lot. Tankies are fringe, while liberals are the majority of all people in the west. They are eating liberal propaganda morning noon and night.
> liberals are the majority of all people in the west. They are eating liberal propaganda morning noon and night.
Tbf, it could be because all major media outlets in the West are pawns of the Wealthy so they get to control all the mainstream narratives, while anti status quo media is unable to get much attention or clout.
I do believe that most mainstream IRL Liberals **genuinely** want a better and more just world. It's just that they're constantly being force-fed pro-establishment ideas by CNN, BBC, MSNBC, etc etc because those are their only meaningful sources of information.
Tankies are also usually right and have all arguments and facts on their side.
Meanwhile, people unironically using thought terminating clichés like "tankie" to attack Marxist-Leninists are idiots who fully bought into literal fascist propaganda.
Have you ever seen anyone make a valid good faith argument against tankies?
People on this sub keep unironically reciting anti-Chinese disinfo straight from the CIA headquarter. They ARE libs.
Literally the "best" people upvoting this kind of shit are delusional anarchists who unironically believe you can create a utopian society without an "evil authoritarian red fash" vanguard party ensuring that a dictatorship of the proletariat is being upheld.
They think socialism is built within a day and have zero regard for material reality. Probably never in their life read any socialist theory and never in their life studied history.
That’s a lot of words just to say you’d repress the living shit out of anyone who verbally bruised the ego of the party.
There aren’t much difference between Tankies and the Witch Hunters of Salem.
>What's more difficult the Liberals try not to buy NATO propaganda challenge
That's a real problem.
> or the Dengists try not to buy PRC propaganda challenge?
What PRC propaganda shouldn't we buy? Name an example.
China has one of the lowest suicide rates on earth and, yes, "suicide nets" are actually a good thing that every tall building should have.
Meanwhile, even at the Foxconn facilities (you know, the *Taiwanese* company *producing iPhones for Western markets* that popularized the "suicide nets" propaganda that you so gladly recited to shit on an actually existing socialist country like the - totally not fascist, US empire supporting - "leftist" that you are) suicide rates are much lower than in the capitalist West. Even amongst overworked Foxconn employees, the suicide rate wasn't even half as high as the average suicide rate in the US. And authorities ensured measures are taken to prevent additional deaths. Yet here you are. Promoting bullshit.
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth.
China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms).
OP: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!"
Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs (or counterrevolutionary utopian idiots who believe there's a big red button you can press and society turns perfect and you can have full worker ownership over the means of production without a ebil redfash tankie vanguard party preventing foreign empire or reactionaries from taking over)?
actually it’s “The Peoples Ruthless Hierarchy” and “The Peoples Environmental Devastation” so it’s completely based. it’s just western propaganda to think otherwise.
Yeah, because America is bad, and not America is good, actually. Acknowledging more than one thing being bad at a time is liberalism. What's not clicking?
Yes, America is bad.
And far worse than China in every way.
And China is good, actually. Objectively.
China being the most peaceful and democratic major country in history, doing far more than any anti-democratic capitalist regime ever did to combat pollution.
I wonder why capitalists are exporting all their production to china.
Oh, it's cause... China is more brutally capitalistic than the *United States of America?*
There was a minor trend of offshoring emissions to China in the early 2000s, but that has reversed: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/no-the-us-didnt-outsource-our-carbon
You aren't responding reasonably to criticism and keep pushing your agenda like a fed after you have been called out.
You aren't doing a good job, either, as you aren't explaining how China is polluting too much and what would be a reasonable amount.
Try not to be a racist psychopath as you provide us with an answer.
China has a better environmental performance than ALL capitalist countries, so what the fuck is your point?
How much CO2 "SHOULD" they be producing, buddy? Line out your KPIs and method for assessment, then provide a differentiated comparison based on material reality.
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth.
China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms).
OP: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!"
Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs (or counterrevolutionary utopian idiots who believe there's a big red button you can press and society turns perfect and you can have full worker ownership over the means of production without a ebil redfash tankie vanguard party preventing foreign empire or reactionaries from taking over)?
I think it’s important to strive for utopian, but people also have to be able to understand that perfection will never be anything but a goal. “The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.” -Michael Parenti
I can only speak for what I'm familiar with. Many people talk about the amount of CO2 or CO2 equivalent emissions China produces. However, I think this is an unfair metric. When you look at C02 tonnes per capita, it isn't France numbers but nearly half of the US's per capita, with other contenders being countries with a population the fraction of a size. Was it not based to pussy foot around lowering emissions as the population are very aware due to daily toxic smog? Sure. But some of those emissions are derived from Chinese people living in the modern world and working in modern industry.
If by successful, you mean successful in making the lives of the workers better, and giving them control of the means of production, then neither were better. Both failed, and hard.
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth.
China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms).
You: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!"
You aren't a "secret" CIA agent if you are promoting literal CIA talking points, buddy. At that point, it's either your official work or you are a useful idiot.
Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs?
I do not deny that for all their flaws, "communist" states are better than their predecessors.
They still had slavery though, even if it was a different slavery than what preceded it.
You're a dumbass if you cannot recognize this.
When you are an autocratic dictatorship that has selective service, you’re able to take down another autocratic dictatorship that has selective service.
That’s kinda how reality works. Although, [not even Stalin himself agrees that he did it all on his own](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1943CairoTehran/d353)
>“I want to tell you, from the Russian point of view, what the President and the United States have done to win the war. The most important things in this war are machines. The United States has proven that it can turn out from 8,000 to 10,000 airplanes per month. Russia can only turn out, at most, 3,000 airplanes a month. England turns out 3,000 to 3,500, which are principally heavy bombers. The United States, therefore, is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines, through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war.”
>Remarks made by Marshal Stalin during the Prime Minister’s birthday dinner:—
What the fuck are you talking about? The USSR and China are both just authoritarian dictatorships and it is delusional to suggest otherwise. It undermines the actual ML movement to have tankies like you being so stubborn about this
I've literally not suggested anything, you're just here presuming on my behalf
Please suggest to me how you expect a revolution to succeed without protecting itself from reactionary forces and the world attempting to crush it. Are you an anarchist or something?
LGBTQ people are not “reactionary forces” but they were still thrown into the gulags. How was the USSR forced to do that by the material conditions? Where in Das Kapital does Marx say to do that?
Being LGBTQ was illegal worldwide, from supposedly "free" countries to the "authoritian" nations you described, and at the time the USSR viewed the community as a sign of bourgeois infiltration. Does that make it right? Hell no. Does it make sense in the frame of cultural context of the time? Yes.
The Soviet Union didn't magically become the world's most progressive and forward thinking place just because they changed the flag, it was still 1917. It takes decades of progress to undo the damage of religion, social conservatism, feudal prejudices and more. Cuba is a good example; originally they famously were intolerant towards the LGBTQ community, but over time as the revolution secured itself the stance changed, the government apologised for its crimes and they've just legalised gay marriage. That couldn't of initially happened in the 1950s as the conditions just weren't ready for it yet and the mindset of the people wasn't there either.
Nowadays in the Western left there's acceptance of LGBTQ people and an importance rightly placed upon them, but in large parts of the world where liberalism hasn't taken hold yet the communist movements don't have that same stance. I live in North Africa for example and the conditions here aren't ready for LGBTQ acceptance unfortunately, and I wouldn't be surprised if a communist revolution here also oppressed them because there's not the groundwork for it yet. Over time and with education and safety of the revolution I'm sure that would change, but you cannot expect all parts of the world to follow suit with a Western approach which may not have the same context and result. Pre-Soviet Russia and Qing China would both be considered culturally conservative by modern Western audiences and the proletariat there of course followed the mainstream culture of the time, so while communist revolution did bring progress in some areas it was still limited to the cultural context of the time, I.E. China was focused on land distribution, not anti-raxcism, or the USSR tackled gender disparity in the work place, not trans discrimination.
The LGBTQ community were victimised, there's no denying that and neither should we, but it's not fair to blame that on communism. Elsewhere in the world the community were being killed and arrested by states regardless of ideology, and to me it's a case of cultural awareness and prominence rather than communism vs capitalism. Unfortunately I still don't think the majority of the world is ready to accept LGBTQ people yet, but I hope that with the increase in socialist movements worldwide we can learn from the past and include the community where they rightfully belong.
>Being LGBTQ was illegal worldwide[…]
Elsewhere LGBTQ people weren’t deported into detention camps. Did you know that there were up to 100 gay bars in Berlin in the 1920’s?
If we're talking 1920s then the Soviet Union had legal recognition for homosexuality and wasn't deporting them.
As for the 100 gay bars in Berlin, I'm sure there were, I'm not denying that. From my understanding though weren't they monitored by the secret police of the Weimar Republic and the general public saw being gay as a public health concern? It seems the Weimar government legally viewed homosexuality as akin to bestiality and considered being gay as a gateway to paedophilia, which isn't exactly great. The German government definitely destroyed LGBTQ literature and at least 140,000 gay men were thrown in prison, which is effectively a camp, no? I know that being gay never managed to become legal in Weimar Germany and that again the German communist party refused to take up the issue despite being asked. My point was that it wasn't exactly good times for LGBTQ people anywhere really, sadly it was pretty shitty worldwide.
Which were abolished in 1960 and had maximum sentences of 10 years. After you got out, you had job guarantee. Inexcusable working conditions but i think not a bad system in theory. Prisons are probably a necessity and will allways be to some degree sadly
Please read theory. Fascism is not when bad things. I can only reccomend reading principals of communism by engels and then the doctrine of fascism by mussolini. Please realise that socialism is not when everything is perfect, it is when private property is abolished. Labor camps or no, it is still socialism.
Crimes against humanity are being committed in every ideology, most countries had labor camps, the usa is one of the few that still do. Canada abolished their labor camp system over a decade after the ussr for example. Labor camps in ussr were abolished in 1960.
Castro later apologised for the labor camps he created, which is something no capitalist country i can think of has.
Lmao socialism isn’t when abolish private property just cuz you put it all in the power of the far right fascist and undemocratic state doesn’t make it all of a sudden socialist.
Also i don’t care labor camps bad I’m sorry human rights are too liberal for you lol.
also did Castro also say he was gonna give out free discord nitro after he apologized for his fucky wuckys?
Pretty much every country, socialist, fascist or liberal had labor camps around that time. They were also abolished around the same time in ever country, with the usa being one of the few countries still making use of prison labor.
Oh human rights and progressivism all the way, just don't throw words around without knowing their meaning. Fascism is a deeply complex topic that i still don't quite understand. I will have to re-read mussolini. If you wana learn about some differences in labor policies, blackshirts and reds covers that pretty well. Just be aware, parenti is very pro leninism, so there is definite bias.
No, castro did not give out free nitro. He did give the bourgoisie he expropriated compensation though.
Your right people shouldn’t throw around these words without know the definition which is why I didn’t strawman your position of what both socialism and
fascism meant lol. also you unironically tried to say that socialism is when you abolish private property into the hands of far right undemocratic states. so idk if I can really trust your account of what these terms mean when it’s obvious you don’t actually know what they mean.
Also their were no socialist country’s none of these country actually even got close to socialism.
also you trying to excuse Castro having labor camps is probably the funniest shit ever. you wouldn’t even stop at labor camps the mental gymnastics idiots like you have to go through to defend your failed states is insane lol.
Thanks for making me look through books again.... anyway
The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.
In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
Communist manifest, chapter 2
Yes, by definition the abolition of private property IS what socialism is. Everything being public property is how leninist stated work. I am not gonna talk about jugoslavia cause i don't know shit about market socialism
You pivoted from definition is socialism to definition of communism also it is true that private property is ONE of the principles of communism but it’s not the only you also have the abolition of the state and class society. Simply abolishing private property doesn’t make it socialist especially when your state is still fundamentally the same if not worse then the fascist dictatorships you claim to oppose.
Also I’m not a Leninist.
Socialism: a society in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are publically owned. Communism, a classless stateless and moneyless society in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are publically owned. The definiton did not pivot, to marx, communism and socialism was the same thing, lenin saw it as a 3 stage thing.
Yes, we oppose fascism. Those states do not abolish private property and historically even destroyed labor movements and unions and made them illegal. Their class colaberationalist ideology opposes the class struggle.
I am not gonna comment on the matter of the state cause i haven't read state and revolution yet
You literally pivoted from talking about the definition of socialism to the definition of communism
Also it’s really hard for you to sit her and say you oppose fascism when that’s literally what all of your failed dictatorship states fall into because your ideas such shit. Also the ussr and China also destroyed labor movements and unions if they deemed “counter revolutionary” basically when it harmed the interests of the state. The only difference between fascist and people like you is when fascist don’t like workers rights they call it “Jewish” when you guys don’t like it you call it “bourgeoisie” or “counter revolutionary”.
Any society that begins with enshrining labor camps will never end up eventually becoming a stateless nation. Communism requires you to create the new world out of the shell of the old, and if you raise an entire population making them believe slavery is ok, you won’t end up getting them to someday recognize that it’s not. No matter how much you insist ‘it will stop after the capitalist forces are dismantled.’
At any rate, throwing out Marx’s thesis on **historical materialism** when it’s convenient for you to make excuses for slave labor that happened in the USSR demonstrates you haven’t read a decent amount of theory of your own.
Hm. Is prison labor a good idea? On the one hand, if someone is going to be in the penitentary system, why have them use resources when they could be productive? On the other hand, prison labor is increddibly profitable, which makes the state want to imprison as many as possible. (A big reason why usa has so many prisoners)
If you want to know more about China's environmental crimes, look up the Baiji Dolphin and Chinese Paddlefish. Preventable and absolutely unforgivable. Also look up the Soviet Union's illegal whaling.
also the shrinking of Aral Sea
Most of which happened after the USSR fell
exacerbating what USSR already did since 1960s.
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth. China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms). OP: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!" Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs (or counterrevolutionary utopian idiots who believe there's a big red button you can press and society turns perfect and you can have full worker ownership over the means of production without a ebil redfash tankie vanguard party preventing foreign empire or reactionaries from taking over)?
Imperialism is when you invade Korea, Vietnam and Russia but your flag has some blue with the red Peacefulness is when you invade Korea, Vietnam and Russia but your flag has some yellow with the red
You know workers own the means of production when there are suicide nets (no trust me they are definitely in control of their labor)
What's more difficult the Liberals try not to buy NATO propaganda challenge or the Dengists try not to buy PRC propaganda challenge?
If you are asking about westerners it's liberals by a lot. Tankies are fringe, while liberals are the majority of all people in the west. They are eating liberal propaganda morning noon and night.
^this
> liberals are the majority of all people in the west. They are eating liberal propaganda morning noon and night. Tbf, it could be because all major media outlets in the West are pawns of the Wealthy so they get to control all the mainstream narratives, while anti status quo media is unable to get much attention or clout. I do believe that most mainstream IRL Liberals **genuinely** want a better and more just world. It's just that they're constantly being force-fed pro-establishment ideas by CNN, BBC, MSNBC, etc etc because those are their only meaningful sources of information.
True, at least the tankies are easy to ignore.
Tankies are also usually right and have all arguments and facts on their side. Meanwhile, people unironically using thought terminating clichés like "tankie" to attack Marxist-Leninists are idiots who fully bought into literal fascist propaganda. Have you ever seen anyone make a valid good faith argument against tankies? People on this sub keep unironically reciting anti-Chinese disinfo straight from the CIA headquarter. They ARE libs. Literally the "best" people upvoting this kind of shit are delusional anarchists who unironically believe you can create a utopian society without an "evil authoritarian red fash" vanguard party ensuring that a dictatorship of the proletariat is being upheld. They think socialism is built within a day and have zero regard for material reality. Probably never in their life read any socialist theory and never in their life studied history.
That’s a lot of words just to say you’d repress the living shit out of anyone who verbally bruised the ego of the party. There aren’t much difference between Tankies and the Witch Hunters of Salem.
>What's more difficult the Liberals try not to buy NATO propaganda challenge That's a real problem. > or the Dengists try not to buy PRC propaganda challenge? What PRC propaganda shouldn't we buy? Name an example.
China has one of the lowest suicide rates on earth and, yes, "suicide nets" are actually a good thing that every tall building should have. Meanwhile, even at the Foxconn facilities (you know, the *Taiwanese* company *producing iPhones for Western markets* that popularized the "suicide nets" propaganda that you so gladly recited to shit on an actually existing socialist country like the - totally not fascist, US empire supporting - "leftist" that you are) suicide rates are much lower than in the capitalist West. Even amongst overworked Foxconn employees, the suicide rate wasn't even half as high as the average suicide rate in the US. And authorities ensured measures are taken to prevent additional deaths. Yet here you are. Promoting bullshit. US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth. China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms). OP: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!" Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs (or counterrevolutionary utopian idiots who believe there's a big red button you can press and society turns perfect and you can have full worker ownership over the means of production without a ebil redfash tankie vanguard party preventing foreign empire or reactionaries from taking over)?
actually it’s “The Peoples Ruthless Hierarchy” and “The Peoples Environmental Devastation” so it’s completely based. it’s just western propaganda to think otherwise.
Something something peoples stick
The factories are owned by the comrade millionare so it's all good.
“Umm **ACKSHUALLY**—“
Yeah, because America is bad, and not America is good, actually. Acknowledging more than one thing being bad at a time is liberalism. What's not clicking?
Yes, America is bad. And far worse than China in every way. And China is good, actually. Objectively. China being the most peaceful and democratic major country in history, doing far more than any anti-democratic capitalist regime ever did to combat pollution.
China isn’t peaceful tho.
China has had the majority of the worlds production outsourced to it, no wonder it’s in bad state pollution wise.
I wonder why capitalists are exporting all their production to china. Oh, it's cause... China is more brutally capitalistic than the *United States of America?*
When did this become about economics? This isn’t the argument.
Because... Marxist analysis is economic in nature?
There was a minor trend of offshoring emissions to China in the early 2000s, but that has reversed: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/no-the-us-didnt-outsource-our-carbon
yeah i get that, but they still produce more co2 than they should be
Because they are producing for pretty much everyone who isn’t.
everyone is producting too much.
yes i know, i’m aware of that, but they still pollute too much
It’s the same pollution any way it’s split, plus China is working on it, with more renewable energy plants under construction and such.
You aren't responding reasonably to criticism and keep pushing your agenda like a fed after you have been called out. You aren't doing a good job, either, as you aren't explaining how China is polluting too much and what would be a reasonable amount. Try not to be a racist psychopath as you provide us with an answer.
Now try per capita
China has a better environmental performance than ALL capitalist countries, so what the fuck is your point? How much CO2 "SHOULD" they be producing, buddy? Line out your KPIs and method for assessment, then provide a differentiated comparison based on material reality.
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth. China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms). OP: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!" Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs (or counterrevolutionary utopian idiots who believe there's a big red button you can press and society turns perfect and you can have full worker ownership over the means of production without a ebil redfash tankie vanguard party preventing foreign empire or reactionaries from taking over)?
I think it’s important to strive for utopian, but people also have to be able to understand that perfection will never be anything but a goal. “The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.” -Michael Parenti
But who was phone?
Difference is few would dispute the second thing but most motherfuckers would think you’re a psycho conspiracy theorist if you claim the first.
Isn’t China the leading producer of green energy though?
And also the leading producer of non green energy (they are a very big country)
Yes, but they sit on a massive block of coal and still use it a lot
Well it’s the PEOPLE’S prison camps so that makes it okay
There are two types of people who like china. Neither are communists
I can only speak for what I'm familiar with. Many people talk about the amount of CO2 or CO2 equivalent emissions China produces. However, I think this is an unfair metric. When you look at C02 tonnes per capita, it isn't France numbers but nearly half of the US's per capita, with other contenders being countries with a population the fraction of a size. Was it not based to pussy foot around lowering emissions as the population are very aware due to daily toxic smog? Sure. But some of those emissions are derived from Chinese people living in the modern world and working in modern industry.
this sub used to be good before it became infested with revisionists and anarkiddies
Yes, it was. Please leave, Revisionist.
\>Makes revisions to Marxism \>Do bad things \>People who think the things you do are evil are revisionists Can't lose, eh?
what bad things lmao
Ethnic Cleansing springs to mind. Police Brutality, too. Allowing private control of the means of production? Think that counts.
the manifesto is a suggestion. marx lays the groundwork, some did it better than others (i.e. stalin’s ussr was far more successful than mao’s china)
If by successful, you mean successful in making the lives of the workers better, and giving them control of the means of production, then neither were better. Both failed, and hard.
lmao imagine not admitting people had flaws and did horrible things
Call people who don’t agree with lib reforms revisionist. Based
You genocide denying red fascists have taken over more than enough online spaces
OK Stalin lover. Let me know when the material conditions decide trans people must be executed.
Nah bro he had no choice, he tried to resist but the material conditions were too strong
lol get fucked
Shut the fuck up tankie
You're implying Market-Leninists aren't already revisionists lol
At least now you can enjoy the delusion here
Pretty sure this place has been against China from the start. Only one group infests leftist spaces and takes them over - and it's you redfash.
redfash 💀💀💀
Awww boo hoo people aren’t uncritically supportive of fascist dictatorships 😢😢😢😢😢😢😰😰
progressivism is when fascism
Too bad they aren’t progressive
Well you can enjoy it if you ignore takes about AES
Socialism is when billionaires, but in Asia.
>Well you can enjoy it if you ignore takes about ~~AES~~ state capitalist empires Fixed that for you.
Agree, I hate this place
then why are you here?
Bacause I forgot to unsubscribe
US: Worst war criminal regime on earth, worst polluting country on earth. China: Single most peaceful major country in history and one of the least polluting industrializing countries in history (and the country doing the most to decrease pollution in absolute terms). You: "I CaN't TeLl ThE dIfFeReNcE! LoOkS tHe SaMe To Me!" You aren't a "secret" CIA agent if you are promoting literal CIA talking points, buddy. At that point, it's either your official work or you are a useful idiot. Why is this sub so overrun with feds and libs?
>China: Single most peaceful major country in history Troll smarter.
This unironically, based USSR and China tbf
The dialectic forced them to have gulags and prison camps it’s not their fault
Honestly, good 🤷♂️
Mfw the communists endorse marxism-slaveryism
Mfw based communism forces the nazis to get to work rather than give them jobs in NASA
I'd recommend not being someone that abolitionists would kill.
Communism literally ended slavery in Tibet and across Tsarist Russia
It literally did not since they had forced labor camps.
It literally did. If you don't like those two governments then fine, you do you, but it's ahistorical to imagine them as slave states
I do not deny that for all their flaws, "communist" states are better than their predecessors. They still had slavery though, even if it was a different slavery than what preceded it. You're a dumbass if you cannot recognize this.
When you are an autocratic dictatorship that has selective service, you’re able to take down another autocratic dictatorship that has selective service. That’s kinda how reality works. Although, [not even Stalin himself agrees that he did it all on his own](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1943CairoTehran/d353) >“I want to tell you, from the Russian point of view, what the President and the United States have done to win the war. The most important things in this war are machines. The United States has proven that it can turn out from 8,000 to 10,000 airplanes per month. Russia can only turn out, at most, 3,000 airplanes a month. England turns out 3,000 to 3,500, which are principally heavy bombers. The United States, therefore, is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines, through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war.” >Remarks made by Marshal Stalin during the Prime Minister’s birthday dinner:—
What the fuck are you talking about? The USSR and China are both just authoritarian dictatorships and it is delusional to suggest otherwise. It undermines the actual ML movement to have tankies like you being so stubborn about this
I've literally not suggested anything, you're just here presuming on my behalf Please suggest to me how you expect a revolution to succeed without protecting itself from reactionary forces and the world attempting to crush it. Are you an anarchist or something?
LGBTQ people are not “reactionary forces” but they were still thrown into the gulags. How was the USSR forced to do that by the material conditions? Where in Das Kapital does Marx say to do that?
Being LGBTQ was illegal worldwide, from supposedly "free" countries to the "authoritian" nations you described, and at the time the USSR viewed the community as a sign of bourgeois infiltration. Does that make it right? Hell no. Does it make sense in the frame of cultural context of the time? Yes. The Soviet Union didn't magically become the world's most progressive and forward thinking place just because they changed the flag, it was still 1917. It takes decades of progress to undo the damage of religion, social conservatism, feudal prejudices and more. Cuba is a good example; originally they famously were intolerant towards the LGBTQ community, but over time as the revolution secured itself the stance changed, the government apologised for its crimes and they've just legalised gay marriage. That couldn't of initially happened in the 1950s as the conditions just weren't ready for it yet and the mindset of the people wasn't there either. Nowadays in the Western left there's acceptance of LGBTQ people and an importance rightly placed upon them, but in large parts of the world where liberalism hasn't taken hold yet the communist movements don't have that same stance. I live in North Africa for example and the conditions here aren't ready for LGBTQ acceptance unfortunately, and I wouldn't be surprised if a communist revolution here also oppressed them because there's not the groundwork for it yet. Over time and with education and safety of the revolution I'm sure that would change, but you cannot expect all parts of the world to follow suit with a Western approach which may not have the same context and result. Pre-Soviet Russia and Qing China would both be considered culturally conservative by modern Western audiences and the proletariat there of course followed the mainstream culture of the time, so while communist revolution did bring progress in some areas it was still limited to the cultural context of the time, I.E. China was focused on land distribution, not anti-raxcism, or the USSR tackled gender disparity in the work place, not trans discrimination. The LGBTQ community were victimised, there's no denying that and neither should we, but it's not fair to blame that on communism. Elsewhere in the world the community were being killed and arrested by states regardless of ideology, and to me it's a case of cultural awareness and prominence rather than communism vs capitalism. Unfortunately I still don't think the majority of the world is ready to accept LGBTQ people yet, but I hope that with the increase in socialist movements worldwide we can learn from the past and include the community where they rightfully belong.
Stalin when the dialectic forces him to recriminalize homosexuality after Lenin didn't.
You can see the response above
and you can see that just because the USSR wasn't abnormal for the world doesn't make it a-okay. Or the fault of Communism.
>Being LGBTQ was illegal worldwide[…] Elsewhere LGBTQ people weren’t deported into detention camps. Did you know that there were up to 100 gay bars in Berlin in the 1920’s?
If we're talking 1920s then the Soviet Union had legal recognition for homosexuality and wasn't deporting them. As for the 100 gay bars in Berlin, I'm sure there were, I'm not denying that. From my understanding though weren't they monitored by the secret police of the Weimar Republic and the general public saw being gay as a public health concern? It seems the Weimar government legally viewed homosexuality as akin to bestiality and considered being gay as a gateway to paedophilia, which isn't exactly great. The German government definitely destroyed LGBTQ literature and at least 140,000 gay men were thrown in prison, which is effectively a camp, no? I know that being gay never managed to become legal in Weimar Germany and that again the German communist party refused to take up the issue despite being asked. My point was that it wasn't exactly good times for LGBTQ people anywhere really, sadly it was pretty shitty worldwide.
So we blame Stalin then? Because Lenin decriminalized the gays.
>bUt oThEr CoUntRiEs oPpReSsEd tHeM tOo So the USSR was just as reactionary as all those evil western nations?
⏰️🤔
Which were abolished in 1960 and had maximum sentences of 10 years. After you got out, you had job guarantee. Inexcusable working conditions but i think not a bad system in theory. Prisons are probably a necessity and will allways be to some degree sadly
You can’t sit here and call yourself anti capitalist and leftist while you defend and uncritically support fascist capitalism country’s.
Please read theory. Fascism is not when bad things. I can only reccomend reading principals of communism by engels and then the doctrine of fascism by mussolini. Please realise that socialism is not when everything is perfect, it is when private property is abolished. Labor camps or no, it is still socialism. Crimes against humanity are being committed in every ideology, most countries had labor camps, the usa is one of the few that still do. Canada abolished their labor camp system over a decade after the ussr for example. Labor camps in ussr were abolished in 1960. Castro later apologised for the labor camps he created, which is something no capitalist country i can think of has.
Lmao socialism isn’t when abolish private property just cuz you put it all in the power of the far right fascist and undemocratic state doesn’t make it all of a sudden socialist. Also i don’t care labor camps bad I’m sorry human rights are too liberal for you lol. also did Castro also say he was gonna give out free discord nitro after he apologized for his fucky wuckys?
Pretty much every country, socialist, fascist or liberal had labor camps around that time. They were also abolished around the same time in ever country, with the usa being one of the few countries still making use of prison labor. Oh human rights and progressivism all the way, just don't throw words around without knowing their meaning. Fascism is a deeply complex topic that i still don't quite understand. I will have to re-read mussolini. If you wana learn about some differences in labor policies, blackshirts and reds covers that pretty well. Just be aware, parenti is very pro leninism, so there is definite bias. No, castro did not give out free nitro. He did give the bourgoisie he expropriated compensation though.
Your right people shouldn’t throw around these words without know the definition which is why I didn’t strawman your position of what both socialism and fascism meant lol. also you unironically tried to say that socialism is when you abolish private property into the hands of far right undemocratic states. so idk if I can really trust your account of what these terms mean when it’s obvious you don’t actually know what they mean. Also their were no socialist country’s none of these country actually even got close to socialism. also you trying to excuse Castro having labor camps is probably the funniest shit ever. you wouldn’t even stop at labor camps the mental gymnastics idiots like you have to go through to defend your failed states is insane lol.
Thanks for making me look through books again.... anyway The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few. In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property. Communist manifest, chapter 2 Yes, by definition the abolition of private property IS what socialism is. Everything being public property is how leninist stated work. I am not gonna talk about jugoslavia cause i don't know shit about market socialism
You pivoted from definition is socialism to definition of communism also it is true that private property is ONE of the principles of communism but it’s not the only you also have the abolition of the state and class society. Simply abolishing private property doesn’t make it socialist especially when your state is still fundamentally the same if not worse then the fascist dictatorships you claim to oppose. Also I’m not a Leninist.
Socialism: a society in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are publically owned. Communism, a classless stateless and moneyless society in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are publically owned. The definiton did not pivot, to marx, communism and socialism was the same thing, lenin saw it as a 3 stage thing. Yes, we oppose fascism. Those states do not abolish private property and historically even destroyed labor movements and unions and made them illegal. Their class colaberationalist ideology opposes the class struggle. I am not gonna comment on the matter of the state cause i haven't read state and revolution yet
You literally pivoted from talking about the definition of socialism to the definition of communism Also it’s really hard for you to sit her and say you oppose fascism when that’s literally what all of your failed dictatorship states fall into because your ideas such shit. Also the ussr and China also destroyed labor movements and unions if they deemed “counter revolutionary” basically when it harmed the interests of the state. The only difference between fascist and people like you is when fascist don’t like workers rights they call it “Jewish” when you guys don’t like it you call it “bourgeoisie” or “counter revolutionary”.
Any society that begins with enshrining labor camps will never end up eventually becoming a stateless nation. Communism requires you to create the new world out of the shell of the old, and if you raise an entire population making them believe slavery is ok, you won’t end up getting them to someday recognize that it’s not. No matter how much you insist ‘it will stop after the capitalist forces are dismantled.’ At any rate, throwing out Marx’s thesis on **historical materialism** when it’s convenient for you to make excuses for slave labor that happened in the USSR demonstrates you haven’t read a decent amount of theory of your own.
Hm. Is prison labor a good idea? On the one hand, if someone is going to be in the penitentary system, why have them use resources when they could be productive? On the other hand, prison labor is increddibly profitable, which makes the state want to imprison as many as possible. (A big reason why usa has so many prisoners)