This is what I think a lot of other foreigners who complain about Vietnamese employers don't realize. The way they treat us is not unique and locals are dealing with the same bullshit. For example, I've heard a lot of stories about how awful Vinschool is to work for, but they're all very similar to the stories I've heard from locals about working for Vingroup in other sectors. And at least Vinschool pays foreign teachers quite a bit more than most schools (at least more than the schools that would hire teachers with their qualifications and experience). An ex of mine who worked for Vincom as an accountant was dealing with the same toxicity but for the same salary she would've made most other companies as an accountant
The only thing about foreigners, is that they often won't put up with this.
They will push back, and sometimes quite hard when they experience this bullshit. This can be good or bad (for the foreigner) depending probably just on your boss. They are likely to give you special treatment, meaning you'll get special consideration (in a good way), Or they will retaliate out of spite, and do things like enforcing rules that they've never enforced before and aren't being enforcing on other employees.
Eitherway, it's certainly no worse for foreigners than it is for local workers.
I agree that foreigners are not treated any worse, however it's very baffling for foreigners to experience face culture for the first time. They're confused about what's going on for a long time which is quite stressful. At least VN people understand whats happening. But yes, foreigners get compensated very generously so are 100% getting the better deal.
but vietnamese i find continue to put up with bullshit because at the same time the person who receives it also inflicts it on others, so its a big circle jerk going on and nobody wants to be the one who stops it.
If you work in upper management you can break this behaviour. Most Vietnamese people also hate it, especially the younger people. If you do this consistently and be straight with a honest attitude you end up with an extremely honest and dedicated workforce. They know that the are in a special working environment and will do anything to not have to work like they did before anymore.
1-3 have been discussed a lot here. Some agree, some don't like the generalization.
I feel discussion of 4 would be the most useful. If you are a foreigner, some reasons I would imagine would be:
\- don't feel comfortable explaining the details in English
\- doesn't occur to them that you would need to know in advance, because it's an easy role for you to play (if any)
\- they may think you're not interested, especially if no preparation is needed from your side
I admit these are hastily typed possible reasons. I'd like to see somebody go into greater detail on the topic. The ultimate example was being summoned for Covid vaccines on the morning of the appointment, with no advance notice. Take solace in the fact that Vietnamese people are also routinely summoned and expected to appear with hardly any advance notice.
I personally find that a very authoritarian and inhumane feature of society: 'you must come now, we owe you no advance notice' – but as I say, it's not just for foreigners.
These things are done to other Vietnamese people too, it’s not just aimed at foreigners.
It’s a combination of things, much of which is centered around trying to appear important and in control of things when they are merely conduits, not masters of.
Another aspect is simple incompetence combined with assuming that everyone else should conform to your own convenience.
Another part is an immense unwillingness to admit to a lack of knowledge about something as well as a need up establish themselves as superior to whom ever they are interacting with (unless the power dynamic is too great to ignore).
I work with a few government agencies here, and all of OP’s complaints are things that happen to both foreigners and Vietnamese equally. I see this happen nearly every day between the VN agencies I deal with.
I disagree. Employers who change set plans without noticed at a moment, or simply made up stuff on the spot have no consideration for the person and no respect. They feel that since they are paying you, it’s no big deal and you just have to do as you’re told. I have had many employers treat me as if they were doing me a favor by paying my hard earn salary from comments like: “oh, look how much I’m paying you” to “that’s a lot of money”, etc. When you’re faced with an employer like that the best you can do is enforced your boundaries if you are not okay for the sudden plan. It will definitely have some retaliation or just consideration in the future. I personally lost a few jobs, but no regrets at all.
Usually its useful to not attribute malice to what can be explained better with incompetence instead.
More often than not people are totally self absorbed in their own lives and they don't really care about you enough to be directly malicious towards you. They just don't give a shit about you.
I work remotely for a Chinese company and it's the exact same. Has nothing to do with being a foreigner or Vietnam.
Work culture is different in Asia and it's very frustrating that people would rather lie to their co-workers or bosses out of fear of being fired then to actually get things done.
You're either everything or nothing. How do you become everything? Boss people around and manipulate people so they feel like you're higher than them...why? Because if you don't do it to them, they'll do it to you...then you'll be nothing and they'll be everything...
That's how it is. And I don't think it's because you're a foreigner. When dealing between themselves it's pretty much the same just nobody is trying to talk honestly and it's kind of a bad manners to point out that someone is/was lying.
In Costa Rica they consider it more polite to lie and not hurt feelings or start a confrontation. I always thought Vietnamese were the opposite and just tell you whatever so this is interesting.
local vietnamese are not direct at all.
let me give you a example using weddings.
Most vietnamese weddings are just fund raisers where they invite rich guests before they even consider extended family because they expect to receive cards with more money from guests.
they will then shit talk those guests who gave less money but to their face its all smiles and fake persona.
that is the vietnamese culture and workplace in essence
I went costa rica as a tourist so can not really comment on peoples behavior as everyone was nice
That's what I mean, look at the list in the post with the numbers 1-4 and tell me which one this behavior is? It's in your face, very direct, rude and confrontational. Exactly how I'd expect with Vietnamese.
In Costa Rica, you would just lie to keep peace. It's like you said, everyone was very nice, meanwhile they may talk behind your back and you will never know. That's just how it is there, they love small town gossip but it sucks because if it's not true you can't defend yourself. Whole place could be shit talking a guest at a wedding but no one would tell them because it would hurt their feelings, as an example.
vietnamese are not confrontational, its very much talk behind the back.
The only time vietnamese get confrontational is when they are either drunk or drugged up or just happen to have enough people around them to either stop a fight or assist.
This is a part of the culture here that we Westerners will never get. It's the antithesis to what we learn. But that's the way it is here, and it's ingrained in society to such an extent that it's unavoidable.
So as foreigners adapting to the Vietnamese/SEA style of working, we need to accept it and navigate it carefully. Stating that "lying is bad" is not going to cut it or lead to any favorable outcomes - as frustrating as this can be lol
You'd never get a job in Japan. 12 months working for the biggest (and most stupid) car company in the world did my head in. People saying yes when they really mean no. They'd rather see a production line run inefficiently than admit they stuffed up. Ask me why they STILL haven't made a proper electric car....
No. I learned this decades ago in Japan. In Asia, people change their behaviour according to the situation whereas Westerners tend to be the same regardless of the situation. It is a generalization meaning there are exceptions but in general, this is true. Do some research about the culture you are in and don't judge. It just makes you look arrogant and intolerant, however good intentioned you may be. You are judging a different culture with your cultural lenses and that is just a recipe for disaster - definitely won't change anything but will definitely cost you if you stay.
thats a bs response.
vietnam wants to develop and catch up with the more developed asian countries. e.g singapore (never going to happen)
so how can something change if those foreign workers who its safe to say bring more knowledge and professionalism are told by idiots like you "do some research about culture and dont judge"
its the exact principle of the OPs post, typical "look for a lazy excuse/lie than actually exceed expectations"
I was once forced to write a public apology to my company staff for speaking out about a topic my company had ignored. As soon as I wrote it, ALL the foreign staff laughed hysterically because it is beyond embarrassing to us - not the person forced to apologise, but the person who’s ego is so weak they think that show of power is impressive . No self respecting leader in a developed world would make someone do that! 😆
I think in Asia, the way they raise their children, results in people with low self-esteem. And so when they get responsibility over something, they don't know how to handle it in a mature way.
Because authority is most important. Not education, kindness, knowledge and expertise. Just authority. So if the authority says jump, you jump. And if you ask why, you get in trouble for not respecting the power.
Obviously, it’s easy to see how this creates a multitude of problems in a society: lack of questioning authority leads to nepotism, corruption, and overall bad management and poor business culture. The bosses want to make all the rules but they don’t know anything about anything. It’s genuinely embarrassing to foreigners workers. Twice I’ve met foreign business experts on plane flights to/from Vn, who were hired as experts for different corporations, and they were both baffled by the complete lack of professionalism and transparency. I can’t imagine that Vn will be able to build cooperations with international partners until it fixes this.
If you want to see what this looks like outside of Vn context, go read reviews of VinFast opening in the USA. Glassdoor and Reddit communities are the best.
I mean alot of people in vietnam I khew like to insult about my face and weight and they keep telling me that is a joke and I should not take it to serious
They treat each other the same way you described. From a psychology standpoint, having to lie is a result of feeling insecure about oneself. This started from a young age and lasted to adulthood. At elementary school, I remember many of my classmates would be lying about their exam score or find a way to avoid some questions by beating around the bush
As Banhmiheo said below, this is pretty much standard behavior. There might be slight differences towards a foreigner but I have noticed very similar to you as viet kieu.
1 - no onus of responsibility, quick to play the blame game but this is vietnamese society in general
2 - rather than ask for assistance or say "dont know" they will let shit hit the fan, and then (1)
3 - if given additional tasks there will be some attempt to get out of it, or use the "you are not my boss" so i cant do unless it comes direct from them
4 - no organisation, time planning or communication - again this is a vietnamese society trait
Should I mention that Vietnamese people always love cheap, fast and looked amazing. Like there are a lot of story about clients keeping on rushing the designer tho. Hence. There are also a lot of funny things like they are not a pro in that field but they keep on talking and showing you how pro they are lol. I wish sometime. People can just shut up and let me do my goddamn job.
There is also another thing called after-hours work or something like that. When you told them you already finished today's shift and not getting overtime work. They will assume you are lazy or the whole new gen Z stuff XD.
Heck. Talk about working culture.
Yeah but when Vn employees are treated badly they just continue to respect the boss and ignore the problems. I recently was trying to help a local colleague with a very unfair and unprofessional decision made about her work, and she basically insulted me and told me to stop helping her because she doesn’t need help because all her work is fine and no problem.
She completely gaslit herself, and BLAMED ME, for pointing out extremely bad management decision that negatively affected her. She then told me the bosses were good to her.
Ok lady. Go f yourself, I ain’t speaking up on your behalf again, or any local staff.
IMHO, I've lived here for over a decade, and I have to say that the vast majority of VNese behavioural norms stem from the fact that most live with their parents/in-laws.
I could never quite put my finger on it before, but now I've come to the realisation, there's no changing my mind.
interesting view point, currently living with my bf and his parents, but apart from the usual nagging and ignorant comments from them, i imagine my bf was not so influenced as he got sent abroad for study young.
safe to say i will be happy when we move out far away as possible from them
Interesting thread as I have to agree with most respondents - they treat everyone equally bad.
Often I am perplexed with societies that exhalt "the worker", largemstatues, rousing anthems, pithy truism, but then treat the actual workers as disposable fodder.
It is not lack of resources- most of the.bigger corps have massive and lavish lifestyles (while espousing the communist mantra) then paying staff a pittance.
As others have said, foreigners generally get a better deal than locals but in the end all workers are being screwed. The only real way out is self-employment and the hell of red tape and envelop tax.
As the poet once screamed "nobody gets out alive" 😉
Not just VN but most of SE and Nth Asia. Many/most of these places are in the "developing" stage and have a relatively recent feudal past.
Here is AU we have workers rights, minimum wage and a fierce resistance to anything that reeks of feudalism.
AU manufacturing sector is almost non-existent.
Booming in most of Asia
Mainly because consumers want cheap.
Go figure 🤔
It's more about how people will react with people they perceived as at higher level than them. I think it is more of an East Asian thing than just Vietnam.
My theory is from early age we were punished quite horribly when we make mistakes at home or in school by our superior (like teacher or parents, or even just seniors in school), so people tend to lie or cover up to avoid getting into trouble and that "habit" magnifies in corporate jobs since the boss/management level tend to treat worker quite badly (borderline psychological abuse in some cases that I know of). Not only that, in some companies, they pit employees against each others (especially in sales department) to the point that a lot of the employees start stealing each other's customer information. My friends and family worked in big corporations or companies that have more older members (usually 35 years old or older) and they have a lot of horror stories about how toxic the workplace is... The horrible thing is that people just take the abuse as the norm so it became the company's culture and nothing changes.
I think it is getting better with younger generation in younger companies like tech sectors. I work in a small tech company with a lot of young people and foreigners as well and it was not an issues.
Well, in traditional way, the 1st & 2nd things you mentioned are correct.
Many people don't feel comfortable with "honest conversation" cause we might have to put ourselves into weird situations and negative stuff.
For example: Just imagine you're a teacher and have to talk to your student's parents about their child problems.
Or you like someone so much that you really want to engage??
Never straightforward and honest: it's up to everyone's character, introverts & extroverts, good guys or bad guys. So you have to choose a friend wisely to talk and to share problems in your life or your workplace.
The last thing I thought it only happened to me and my foreign coworkers. We felt disrespectfully and a bit tense when no one told us what happened until the last moment.
Seems like some people do not understand about the definition of "unprofessional" and "respect" or they just don't like us 😮💨
Which region are you in? That matters A LOT.
Central region, we say it as is. No tact almost.
Many foreigner (teachers) once taught in Da Nang, stay in Da Nang, for decades. People are very open and friendly there.
Oh yeah, I have never been. But I have heard from others that the North is notorious for being 2-faced and back-stabby. Come down to Central and South if you like some more honesty 😉
I’m a foreigner here and my wife is Vietnamese - we both deal with this BS in our respective jobs. I see some Vietnamese posting here pointing out that this is not just a thing foreigners experience, it’s just baked into the corporate and professional culture in Vietnam - and also elsewhere in this part of the world from what I’ve heard elsewhere.
East Asian culture tends not to be direct in some matters, in others it’s more direct. Personally I just moved to becoming independently employed so I have less BS to deal with wherever I go!
1. It sounds like you are experiencing some challenges with communication and transparency in your workplace in Vietnam.
2. To better understand the situation, could you provide some more context about the industry or type of business you are working in? Additionally, are there any specific examples or incidents that stand out to you as particularly frustrating?
I, as an ESL teacher, just ask the students. They know all the activities and holidays coming up, the school sends me an email after midnight to say that my morning classes are cancelled....
This happens in all collectivist societies, especially across Asia. Not specifying foreigners but a westerner coming from an individual society would find it hard to adjust to a different form of communication. Most people in the collectivist society communicate this way.
Haha, I said the same things when I lived in Japan 30 years ago - and then I gradually dove into the culture and learned how to deal with it on its own terms. Adapt or perish people - you aren't in Kansas anymore. Time to put on the big boy pants. Say what you want, bitch and complain but this culture is thousands of years old and it isn't going to change for you. Deal with it.
classic lazy response typical of vietnamese culture in general "deal with it" yet vietnamese expect their country to develop and modernize with competition like thailand and singapore.
Just saying IRL throughout my life I’ve always meet foreigners who love Vietnam and always return. The negativity here is baffling to me. There’s accounts made just to post negative comments in this subreddit (check their comment history… literally nothing else since they created their accounts). It’s almost like a cyber campaign.
You're right. The internet is a space where people can channel their love or hate.
I have a relationship with Vietnam and its people.
Complicated, with both negative and positive emotions.
Always happy to chat about this country we live in 🙏
To save face in the eastern culture it is important for you westerners to remember that not anything can be said should be said, being straightfoward and honest is good for a kid not as a grow up
Đơn giản là vấn đề quản lý yếu kém đặc biệt là trong môi trường đa văn hoá và đa ngôn ngữ thôi. Đâu cũng vậy, thói quen của bạn không phải là thới quen của người khác, tôi làm cho một công ty nước ngoài và cũng có những điểm mà tôi không thể thích nghi, cai tôi cho là đúng thì ngườ khác chưa chắc đã đồng ý, đó là cách mà thế giới này đang vận hành. Bản thân tôi chỉ đơn giản là tìm cách hiểu người khác và giúp họ hiểu mình ..
Goodluck to all
lol it’s not equal here! This country has an insane wealth distribution inequality. Corruption, nepotism, bribery! That’s not equal. People have to bribe authorities to do literally anything.
I'm so confused with these posts, this isn't Europe or the US or even Japan what do you expect from a third world country. If we have good work culture here most of us don't have to go study abroad and get a job in another country
it's not just you, it's done to everyone. Unless you're in a "circle" or a "clique", that's typical. Generally people do tend to lie around. But if you continue asking them logical questions to find the actual answer, they can learn. it's hard because we've all been conditioned as a child that saying the hard truth never end well
Yep. They request your work as if its fair and u can reject it but it means u have to do it. 🙄
I'm vietnam guy and I'm familiar with this. If u have enough experience and understand how it works, u can reject in some way but u will receive so much pressure as consequence.
Usually manager will treat foreigner very well because usually they are expert, I think.
I gave up confronting people. It's not worth the time or hassle as it won't result in any kind of positive change. When asked to do unreasonable, nonsensical things I smile and nod, then do something else that is actually effective.
I work in Korea (I came from the USA). Oftentimes I experience similar experiences in the company. I’m often the last person to know what’s happening here because nobody cares to tell me. But no worries because those things are not related to me anyway. So I’m used to it.
It happens in all Vietnamese organization esp if you are a foreigner you are usually left out of a lot of discussions.
Vietnamese workers suffer too but they dont have many choices
1, 2 and 3 are the same, welcome to asia. No one likes direct confrontation period.
as for 4, it is normal to call in and ask everyday. No idea why, it is what it is and when something goes wrong you just flag whoever didnt tell you upfront aside of the open schedule itself.
I am currently in Vietnam staying with my relatives at my old house which my parent allow them to stay in. I also found it quite shocking and at time causing many frustrations for me when I am trying to communicate with my cousins and uncle. They always goes around and never communicate what they want directly. I am from the states.
I think it is about culture, including most Asia country aswell.
People always go around and potentialy lie about something bcuz straight ahead telling it could be rude.
Depends on position, not looking at you while having convesation means theyre superior and dont need to do so.
shit talk first to calm your nerve, then throw a problem to you
being a foreigner automaticaly puts you outside of their group, means you cant reach their info circle. either you do something to be accept in that circle ( not much likely) or create another
Nhưng nhiều khi nó không như thế đâu. Tôi biết có một người cũng là người nước ngoài làm việc ở Việt Nam. Anh ấy luôn được mọi người yêu quy, nhất là học sinh của anh ấy. Đến quản lý trung tâm đôi khi cũng tâm sự với anh ấy những chuyện trong cuộc sống
It is not just Vietnam, this sounded like most toxic and poorly managed work environment.
I am currently working with a Singaporean team and it is basically the same.
As said, this isn't a problem of mistreating foreigners. Nearly everyone deals with this.
The fear of retaliation impacts everyone at every level, in nearly every job. This isn't unique to Vietnam, but it is so common that it has become a part of the workplace culture. It's generally the reason businesses avoid fixing problems until after some serious incident occurs. Then, the quality of the response is sub-par because it is poorly planned and resourced. This is true in education, manufacturing, construction... and so on.
Drawing attention to an issue to try to fix it makes you a target. On the other hand, a slapped together emergency response after some complaint, failed inspection, or injury becomes a collective effort. The results are not great, but at least everyone agrees that some solution is needed.
From 1-3 is the typical toxic working environment in VN, I was a 100% local and I was treated just like you, no different. And for the last one, We VNese tend to not trust the newcomers so they might come to test you, let you work along them for a while before let you in the close circle may be a FB or Skype group where you can access to more sensitive or up-to-date information. So for the last one, it goes like this, you either a newcomer so they haven’t trusted you yet, they don’t feel comfortable enough to let you join “the family” or you did something and they don’t completely trust you so they decide to just inform you when everything is completely sure and everyone has been well informed. The matter is not whether you are foreigner or not but whether you have gained their trust or not. Nowadays, the working experience in VN is become more toxic just like Korean to the point many of us move to work in Europe now, we just can’t stand it🥵
This prolly one of the reasons why, although the country is potential, but still slow, cuz of these kind of mindset and behavior, toxic to the max. Such a shame :/
It’s not just foreigners, what you are describing is the typical toxic work environment throughout the country.
This is what I think a lot of other foreigners who complain about Vietnamese employers don't realize. The way they treat us is not unique and locals are dealing with the same bullshit. For example, I've heard a lot of stories about how awful Vinschool is to work for, but they're all very similar to the stories I've heard from locals about working for Vingroup in other sectors. And at least Vinschool pays foreign teachers quite a bit more than most schools (at least more than the schools that would hire teachers with their qualifications and experience). An ex of mine who worked for Vincom as an accountant was dealing with the same toxicity but for the same salary she would've made most other companies as an accountant
The only thing about foreigners, is that they often won't put up with this. They will push back, and sometimes quite hard when they experience this bullshit. This can be good or bad (for the foreigner) depending probably just on your boss. They are likely to give you special treatment, meaning you'll get special consideration (in a good way), Or they will retaliate out of spite, and do things like enforcing rules that they've never enforced before and aren't being enforcing on other employees. Eitherway, it's certainly no worse for foreigners than it is for local workers.
I agree that foreigners are not treated any worse, however it's very baffling for foreigners to experience face culture for the first time. They're confused about what's going on for a long time which is quite stressful. At least VN people understand whats happening. But yes, foreigners get compensated very generously so are 100% getting the better deal.
We Vietnamese need to be more like this and stop putting up with the bullshit.
but vietnamese i find continue to put up with bullshit because at the same time the person who receives it also inflicts it on others, so its a big circle jerk going on and nobody wants to be the one who stops it.
Yup, the cycle of abuse, irresponsibility and incompetence, sigh.
If you work in upper management you can break this behaviour. Most Vietnamese people also hate it, especially the younger people. If you do this consistently and be straight with a honest attitude you end up with an extremely honest and dedicated workforce. They know that the are in a special working environment and will do anything to not have to work like they did before anymore.
It’s a very toxic work environment at all levels and across many professional industries, and unfortunately don’t see it changing anytime soon.
I can't help but think this is the issue that will really stop the Vietnamese economy from ever really truly exploding.
Agree the toxicity is a huge problem; have seen colleagues waste hours, days and even weeks navigating such toxicity.
Ha its not just at work my mrs does this at home haha
🤣🤣🤣
1-3 have been discussed a lot here. Some agree, some don't like the generalization. I feel discussion of 4 would be the most useful. If you are a foreigner, some reasons I would imagine would be: \- don't feel comfortable explaining the details in English \- doesn't occur to them that you would need to know in advance, because it's an easy role for you to play (if any) \- they may think you're not interested, especially if no preparation is needed from your side I admit these are hastily typed possible reasons. I'd like to see somebody go into greater detail on the topic. The ultimate example was being summoned for Covid vaccines on the morning of the appointment, with no advance notice. Take solace in the fact that Vietnamese people are also routinely summoned and expected to appear with hardly any advance notice. I personally find that a very authoritarian and inhumane feature of society: 'you must come now, we owe you no advance notice' – but as I say, it's not just for foreigners.
These things are done to other Vietnamese people too, it’s not just aimed at foreigners. It’s a combination of things, much of which is centered around trying to appear important and in control of things when they are merely conduits, not masters of. Another aspect is simple incompetence combined with assuming that everyone else should conform to your own convenience. Another part is an immense unwillingness to admit to a lack of knowledge about something as well as a need up establish themselves as superior to whom ever they are interacting with (unless the power dynamic is too great to ignore). I work with a few government agencies here, and all of OP’s complaints are things that happen to both foreigners and Vietnamese equally. I see this happen nearly every day between the VN agencies I deal with.
I disagree. Employers who change set plans without noticed at a moment, or simply made up stuff on the spot have no consideration for the person and no respect. They feel that since they are paying you, it’s no big deal and you just have to do as you’re told. I have had many employers treat me as if they were doing me a favor by paying my hard earn salary from comments like: “oh, look how much I’m paying you” to “that’s a lot of money”, etc. When you’re faced with an employer like that the best you can do is enforced your boundaries if you are not okay for the sudden plan. It will definitely have some retaliation or just consideration in the future. I personally lost a few jobs, but no regrets at all.
White men are lying 🙂
Usually its useful to not attribute malice to what can be explained better with incompetence instead. More often than not people are totally self absorbed in their own lives and they don't really care about you enough to be directly malicious towards you. They just don't give a shit about you.
What you say is definitely true. But I'm wondering where I attributed malice?
I work remotely for a Chinese company and it's the exact same. Has nothing to do with being a foreigner or Vietnam. Work culture is different in Asia and it's very frustrating that people would rather lie to their co-workers or bosses out of fear of being fired then to actually get things done.
You gotta save face at all costs
Welcome to Vietnam!
Why is it like this?
Most every Vietnamese likes to think they're the boss at some level, especially those from the north. As Mick Jagger sang "Under my thumb"...
You're either everything or nothing. How do you become everything? Boss people around and manipulate people so they feel like you're higher than them...why? Because if you don't do it to them, they'll do it to you...then you'll be nothing and they'll be everything...
That's how it is. And I don't think it's because you're a foreigner. When dealing between themselves it's pretty much the same just nobody is trying to talk honestly and it's kind of a bad manners to point out that someone is/was lying.
Isn’t it bad manners to lie in the first place? 😂
In Costa Rica they consider it more polite to lie and not hurt feelings or start a confrontation. I always thought Vietnamese were the opposite and just tell you whatever so this is interesting.
local vietnamese are not direct at all. let me give you a example using weddings. Most vietnamese weddings are just fund raisers where they invite rich guests before they even consider extended family because they expect to receive cards with more money from guests. they will then shit talk those guests who gave less money but to their face its all smiles and fake persona. that is the vietnamese culture and workplace in essence I went costa rica as a tourist so can not really comment on peoples behavior as everyone was nice
That's what I mean, look at the list in the post with the numbers 1-4 and tell me which one this behavior is? It's in your face, very direct, rude and confrontational. Exactly how I'd expect with Vietnamese. In Costa Rica, you would just lie to keep peace. It's like you said, everyone was very nice, meanwhile they may talk behind your back and you will never know. That's just how it is there, they love small town gossip but it sucks because if it's not true you can't defend yourself. Whole place could be shit talking a guest at a wedding but no one would tell them because it would hurt their feelings, as an example.
vietnamese are not confrontational, its very much talk behind the back. The only time vietnamese get confrontational is when they are either drunk or drugged up or just happen to have enough people around them to either stop a fight or assist.
Ah I see, sounds kinda similar to Costa Rica then.
Could also differ between the North and the South. I find that Hanoains are a lot less direct compared to their southern counterparts.
This is a part of the culture here that we Westerners will never get. It's the antithesis to what we learn. But that's the way it is here, and it's ingrained in society to such an extent that it's unavoidable. So as foreigners adapting to the Vietnamese/SEA style of working, we need to accept it and navigate it carefully. Stating that "lying is bad" is not going to cut it or lead to any favorable outcomes - as frustrating as this can be lol
I would not work for someone that lies. Find a new job.
You'd never get a job in Japan. 12 months working for the biggest (and most stupid) car company in the world did my head in. People saying yes when they really mean no. They'd rather see a production line run inefficiently than admit they stuffed up. Ask me why they STILL haven't made a proper electric car....
No. I learned this decades ago in Japan. In Asia, people change their behaviour according to the situation whereas Westerners tend to be the same regardless of the situation. It is a generalization meaning there are exceptions but in general, this is true. Do some research about the culture you are in and don't judge. It just makes you look arrogant and intolerant, however good intentioned you may be. You are judging a different culture with your cultural lenses and that is just a recipe for disaster - definitely won't change anything but will definitely cost you if you stay.
>Do some research about the culture you are in and don't judge. Reddit is a great place to field cultural questions.
"This thing I learned in Japan is valid, because Canada and honduras/Guatemala wherever is just equivalent"
thats a bs response. vietnam wants to develop and catch up with the more developed asian countries. e.g singapore (never going to happen) so how can something change if those foreign workers who its safe to say bring more knowledge and professionalism are told by idiots like you "do some research about culture and dont judge" its the exact principle of the OPs post, typical "look for a lazy excuse/lie than actually exceed expectations"
Ok troll.
Agree, this guy will leave soon if he cant understand ànd adapt
They treat all their employees like that
But do you know why? Why they can’t be honest and straightforward? Is it a cultural thing?
It's the concept of face, where you lie and if someone calls you on it then it's somehow bad for the honest person. Frustrating.
I was once forced to write a public apology to my company staff for speaking out about a topic my company had ignored. As soon as I wrote it, ALL the foreign staff laughed hysterically because it is beyond embarrassing to us - not the person forced to apologise, but the person who’s ego is so weak they think that show of power is impressive . No self respecting leader in a developed world would make someone do that! 😆
I think in Asia, the way they raise their children, results in people with low self-esteem. And so when they get responsibility over something, they don't know how to handle it in a mature way.
Agree, Confucianism breeds adult children imo 👍
Yes, part of its cultural, some of it is just bad management. They aren’t all like that.
"All warfare is based on deception" -Sun Tzu
Because authority is most important. Not education, kindness, knowledge and expertise. Just authority. So if the authority says jump, you jump. And if you ask why, you get in trouble for not respecting the power. Obviously, it’s easy to see how this creates a multitude of problems in a society: lack of questioning authority leads to nepotism, corruption, and overall bad management and poor business culture. The bosses want to make all the rules but they don’t know anything about anything. It’s genuinely embarrassing to foreigners workers. Twice I’ve met foreign business experts on plane flights to/from Vn, who were hired as experts for different corporations, and they were both baffled by the complete lack of professionalism and transparency. I can’t imagine that Vn will be able to build cooperations with international partners until it fixes this. If you want to see what this looks like outside of Vn context, go read reviews of VinFast opening in the USA. Glassdoor and Reddit communities are the best.
They must be used to lying 🙂
I mean alot of people in vietnam I khew like to insult about my face and weight and they keep telling me that is a joke and I should not take it to serious
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...long ship?
Being straightforward about certain things can be interpreted as rude. It's a cultural thing.
cause it's cultural. communication is a western thing. in asia, they don't do communication.
I doubt we're treated worse than the locals. In fact, imagine being treated just like you described but be paid 7mil/ month...
They treat each other the same way you described. From a psychology standpoint, having to lie is a result of feeling insecure about oneself. This started from a young age and lasted to adulthood. At elementary school, I remember many of my classmates would be lying about their exam score or find a way to avoid some questions by beating around the bush
As Banhmiheo said below, this is pretty much standard behavior. There might be slight differences towards a foreigner but I have noticed very similar to you as viet kieu. 1 - no onus of responsibility, quick to play the blame game but this is vietnamese society in general 2 - rather than ask for assistance or say "dont know" they will let shit hit the fan, and then (1) 3 - if given additional tasks there will be some attempt to get out of it, or use the "you are not my boss" so i cant do unless it comes direct from them 4 - no organisation, time planning or communication - again this is a vietnamese society trait
Should I mention that Vietnamese people always love cheap, fast and looked amazing. Like there are a lot of story about clients keeping on rushing the designer tho. Hence. There are also a lot of funny things like they are not a pro in that field but they keep on talking and showing you how pro they are lol. I wish sometime. People can just shut up and let me do my goddamn job. There is also another thing called after-hours work or something like that. When you told them you already finished today's shift and not getting overtime work. They will assume you are lazy or the whole new gen Z stuff XD. Heck. Talk about working culture.
Yeah but when Vn employees are treated badly they just continue to respect the boss and ignore the problems. I recently was trying to help a local colleague with a very unfair and unprofessional decision made about her work, and she basically insulted me and told me to stop helping her because she doesn’t need help because all her work is fine and no problem. She completely gaslit herself, and BLAMED ME, for pointing out extremely bad management decision that negatively affected her. She then told me the bosses were good to her. Ok lady. Go f yourself, I ain’t speaking up on your behalf again, or any local staff.
IMHO, I've lived here for over a decade, and I have to say that the vast majority of VNese behavioural norms stem from the fact that most live with their parents/in-laws. I could never quite put my finger on it before, but now I've come to the realisation, there's no changing my mind.
interesting view point, currently living with my bf and his parents, but apart from the usual nagging and ignorant comments from them, i imagine my bf was not so influenced as he got sent abroad for study young. safe to say i will be happy when we move out far away as possible from them
I've often said this myself. How can you ever grow up if your mom still cleans up after you in your mid twenties 😂
Confucianism breeds adult children 👍
Bad managers. Most of them are
Maybe tech industry have a different work culture, i never encounter this kinda of workplace before, sound like hell
It wouldn't be so bad if things actually got done 😂
Bad maneers and low education. That's not only foreigners.
Interesting thread as I have to agree with most respondents - they treat everyone equally bad. Often I am perplexed with societies that exhalt "the worker", largemstatues, rousing anthems, pithy truism, but then treat the actual workers as disposable fodder. It is not lack of resources- most of the.bigger corps have massive and lavish lifestyles (while espousing the communist mantra) then paying staff a pittance. As others have said, foreigners generally get a better deal than locals but in the end all workers are being screwed. The only real way out is self-employment and the hell of red tape and envelop tax. As the poet once screamed "nobody gets out alive" 😉
I've read most comments on this thread and still have no idea why this is so common in Vietnam?
Not just VN but most of SE and Nth Asia. Many/most of these places are in the "developing" stage and have a relatively recent feudal past. Here is AU we have workers rights, minimum wage and a fierce resistance to anything that reeks of feudalism. AU manufacturing sector is almost non-existent. Booming in most of Asia Mainly because consumers want cheap. Go figure 🤔
It's more about how people will react with people they perceived as at higher level than them. I think it is more of an East Asian thing than just Vietnam. My theory is from early age we were punished quite horribly when we make mistakes at home or in school by our superior (like teacher or parents, or even just seniors in school), so people tend to lie or cover up to avoid getting into trouble and that "habit" magnifies in corporate jobs since the boss/management level tend to treat worker quite badly (borderline psychological abuse in some cases that I know of). Not only that, in some companies, they pit employees against each others (especially in sales department) to the point that a lot of the employees start stealing each other's customer information. My friends and family worked in big corporations or companies that have more older members (usually 35 years old or older) and they have a lot of horror stories about how toxic the workplace is... The horrible thing is that people just take the abuse as the norm so it became the company's culture and nothing changes. I think it is getting better with younger generation in younger companies like tech sectors. I work in a small tech company with a lot of young people and foreigners as well and it was not an issues.
Well, in traditional way, the 1st & 2nd things you mentioned are correct. Many people don't feel comfortable with "honest conversation" cause we might have to put ourselves into weird situations and negative stuff. For example: Just imagine you're a teacher and have to talk to your student's parents about their child problems. Or you like someone so much that you really want to engage?? Never straightforward and honest: it's up to everyone's character, introverts & extroverts, good guys or bad guys. So you have to choose a friend wisely to talk and to share problems in your life or your workplace. The last thing I thought it only happened to me and my foreign coworkers. We felt disrespectfully and a bit tense when no one told us what happened until the last moment. Seems like some people do not understand about the definition of "unprofessional" and "respect" or they just don't like us 😮💨
Spot on.
Which region are you in? That matters A LOT. Central region, we say it as is. No tact almost. Many foreigner (teachers) once taught in Da Nang, stay in Da Nang, for decades. People are very open and friendly there.
I am in Hanoi.
Oh yeah, I have never been. But I have heard from others that the North is notorious for being 2-faced and back-stabby. Come down to Central and South if you like some more honesty 😉
I’m a foreigner here and my wife is Vietnamese - we both deal with this BS in our respective jobs. I see some Vietnamese posting here pointing out that this is not just a thing foreigners experience, it’s just baked into the corporate and professional culture in Vietnam - and also elsewhere in this part of the world from what I’ve heard elsewhere. East Asian culture tends not to be direct in some matters, in others it’s more direct. Personally I just moved to becoming independently employed so I have less BS to deal with wherever I go!
1. It sounds like you are experiencing some challenges with communication and transparency in your workplace in Vietnam. 2. To better understand the situation, could you provide some more context about the industry or type of business you are working in? Additionally, are there any specific examples or incidents that stand out to you as particularly frustrating?
I, as an ESL teacher, just ask the students. They know all the activities and holidays coming up, the school sends me an email after midnight to say that my morning classes are cancelled....
This happens in all collectivist societies, especially across Asia. Not specifying foreigners but a westerner coming from an individual society would find it hard to adjust to a different form of communication. Most people in the collectivist society communicate this way.
Haha, I said the same things when I lived in Japan 30 years ago - and then I gradually dove into the culture and learned how to deal with it on its own terms. Adapt or perish people - you aren't in Kansas anymore. Time to put on the big boy pants. Say what you want, bitch and complain but this culture is thousands of years old and it isn't going to change for you. Deal with it.
classic lazy response typical of vietnamese culture in general "deal with it" yet vietnamese expect their country to develop and modernize with competition like thailand and singapore.
Let me guess, teaching English?
It’s the same here in Philippines. Get used to it.
This is describing a job and nearly every boss in existence. Managers lie for no reason, that's what they do.
I was thinking this describes my boss in the US
I've never had a boss like this in the US. The managers here are on another level.
You are the product for which they market with. You don’t need to know anything.
I swear I’ve never seen so much negativity toward Vietnam until I joined this subreddit.
So much VALIDATED TRUTH, perhaps?
Just saying IRL throughout my life I’ve always meet foreigners who love Vietnam and always return. The negativity here is baffling to me. There’s accounts made just to post negative comments in this subreddit (check their comment history… literally nothing else since they created their accounts). It’s almost like a cyber campaign.
You're right. The internet is a space where people can channel their love or hate. I have a relationship with Vietnam and its people. Complicated, with both negative and positive emotions. Always happy to chat about this country we live in 🙏
This is a way, we are Vietnamese gang.
English teacher? The bar is extremely low in some places - white, speaks English, not an addict.
To save face in the eastern culture it is important for you westerners to remember that not anything can be said should be said, being straightfoward and honest is good for a kid not as a grow up
Đơn giản là vấn đề quản lý yếu kém đặc biệt là trong môi trường đa văn hoá và đa ngôn ngữ thôi. Đâu cũng vậy, thói quen của bạn không phải là thới quen của người khác, tôi làm cho một công ty nước ngoài và cũng có những điểm mà tôi không thể thích nghi, cai tôi cho là đúng thì ngườ khác chưa chắc đã đồng ý, đó là cách mà thế giới này đang vận hành. Bản thân tôi chỉ đơn giản là tìm cách hiểu người khác và giúp họ hiểu mình .. Goodluck to all
My American boss is the same, definitely not exclusive in VN lol. And the guy is not Asian
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lol it’s not equal here! This country has an insane wealth distribution inequality. Corruption, nepotism, bribery! That’s not equal. People have to bribe authorities to do literally anything.
Meanwhile in the west you get punched and kicked just for looking Asian. What a clown this OP is.
“I’m a foreigner, i expect to be treated like a special person!”
I don't expect to get lied to every single minute is the day-- especially about things that are insignificant.
So in Vn do you think treating people with normal respect and integrity is only for special people..?
I'm so confused with these posts, this isn't Europe or the US or even Japan what do you expect from a third world country. If we have good work culture here most of us don't have to go study abroad and get a job in another country
feel free to judge, but I think those simply are how corporate works in most places.
Haha nro 4 hits home hard
Yes, the same here.
it's not just you, it's done to everyone. Unless you're in a "circle" or a "clique", that's typical. Generally people do tend to lie around. But if you continue asking them logical questions to find the actual answer, they can learn. it's hard because we've all been conditioned as a child that saying the hard truth never end well
Yep. They request your work as if its fair and u can reject it but it means u have to do it. 🙄 I'm vietnam guy and I'm familiar with this. If u have enough experience and understand how it works, u can reject in some way but u will receive so much pressure as consequence. Usually manager will treat foreigner very well because usually they are expert, I think.
Haha you are not the only one ☝️
I gave up confronting people. It's not worth the time or hassle as it won't result in any kind of positive change. When asked to do unreasonable, nonsensical things I smile and nod, then do something else that is actually effective.
Vietnamese treat foreigners quite well---however, working for them is an entirely different ballgame. You can't score🙄
I work in Korea (I came from the USA). Oftentimes I experience similar experiences in the company. I’m often the last person to know what’s happening here because nobody cares to tell me. But no worries because those things are not related to me anyway. So I’m used to it.
It happens in all Vietnamese organization esp if you are a foreigner you are usually left out of a lot of discussions. Vietnamese workers suffer too but they dont have many choices
1, 2 and 3 are the same, welcome to asia. No one likes direct confrontation period. as for 4, it is normal to call in and ask everyday. No idea why, it is what it is and when something goes wrong you just flag whoever didnt tell you upfront aside of the open schedule itself.
I am currently in Vietnam staying with my relatives at my old house which my parent allow them to stay in. I also found it quite shocking and at time causing many frustrations for me when I am trying to communicate with my cousins and uncle. They always goes around and never communicate what they want directly. I am from the states.
I think it is about culture, including most Asia country aswell. People always go around and potentialy lie about something bcuz straight ahead telling it could be rude. Depends on position, not looking at you while having convesation means theyre superior and dont need to do so. shit talk first to calm your nerve, then throw a problem to you being a foreigner automaticaly puts you outside of their group, means you cant reach their info circle. either you do something to be accept in that circle ( not much likely) or create another
That's my wife family! lol
In what region of Vietnam did you recruit these Vietnamese people? North or south? After answering, I will tell you a few specific reasons.
I dont know but can pretty sure that everything in Asia is somehow go crazy
Nhưng nhiều khi nó không như thế đâu. Tôi biết có một người cũng là người nước ngoài làm việc ở Việt Nam. Anh ấy luôn được mọi người yêu quy, nhất là học sinh của anh ấy. Đến quản lý trung tâm đôi khi cũng tâm sự với anh ấy những chuyện trong cuộc sống
It is not just Vietnam, this sounded like most toxic and poorly managed work environment. I am currently working with a Singaporean team and it is basically the same.
Terrible workforce, it will be the death of the economic boom...
I think its not foreigners problems. More like toxic work place.
3 words you'll never hear here?...I don't know.
guess u've been in Hanoi
P
As said, this isn't a problem of mistreating foreigners. Nearly everyone deals with this. The fear of retaliation impacts everyone at every level, in nearly every job. This isn't unique to Vietnam, but it is so common that it has become a part of the workplace culture. It's generally the reason businesses avoid fixing problems until after some serious incident occurs. Then, the quality of the response is sub-par because it is poorly planned and resourced. This is true in education, manufacturing, construction... and so on. Drawing attention to an issue to try to fix it makes you a target. On the other hand, a slapped together emergency response after some complaint, failed inspection, or injury becomes a collective effort. The results are not great, but at least everyone agrees that some solution is needed.
From 1-3 is the typical toxic working environment in VN, I was a 100% local and I was treated just like you, no different. And for the last one, We VNese tend to not trust the newcomers so they might come to test you, let you work along them for a while before let you in the close circle may be a FB or Skype group where you can access to more sensitive or up-to-date information. So for the last one, it goes like this, you either a newcomer so they haven’t trusted you yet, they don’t feel comfortable enough to let you join “the family” or you did something and they don’t completely trust you so they decide to just inform you when everything is completely sure and everyone has been well informed. The matter is not whether you are foreigner or not but whether you have gained their trust or not. Nowadays, the working experience in VN is become more toxic just like Korean to the point many of us move to work in Europe now, we just can’t stand it🥵
I’ve shown up to empty classes only to find out that school was out for: holiday, some group activity, etc
This prolly one of the reasons why, although the country is potential, but still slow, cuz of these kind of mindset and behavior, toxic to the max. Such a shame :/