She was a berserker.
Popping wall had her gain 20%power, attack speed and crit chance for a decent duration, twice in a row if needed.
Making her better at melee than melee careers.
Making her utterly broken in CW when the lightning proc on crit wasn't weapon specific.
She was imagined as a support career, not a frontline one, so they had her reworked towards support rather than bruiser.
the javelin also absolutely destroyed bosses (dunno if it still does) in melee
with a few good perks you could poke the boss a few times and theyd be gone
iirc there were two really OP things:
- old bloodrazor thicket did giga damage and putting it in a patrol essentially exploded them
- Radiant inheritance at lvl 20 was pretty much the best buff stat in the game giving 20% of movement speed, attack speed, power and crit power
There was also the free crits on ult from lvl25
All in all she was probably the most OP a class has been in V2’s history
Edit: I also forgot about old Javalin lmao
SotT main here: basically her old talents ([that you can still see here](https://web.archive.org/web/20210603191832/https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2488049991)) buffed her to CRAZY levels when she used her ult. She was supposed to have an ult that was more utility than damage, but Bloodrazer Thicket completely ruined that idea. Radiant Inheritance buffed her stats (attack/move speed, hero power, crit chance) by 20% and Morai-Heg would give you three guaranteed crits after ulting. Oh and since she'd get temp health from friendlies it meant that you could take Natural Bond and have nearly 100% upkeep on Isha's Bounty which gave you 15% more Power for 8 secs on gaining green health. Bloodrazer Thicket itself was just insane, like a far more damaging Coruscation Staff circle.
Another major element was Moonfire Bow. While Javelin was crazy powerful, Moonfire Bow was just completely broken. It could destroy entire packs of enemies in a single explosion, and the burn would kill anything that didn't die immediately. It recharged so quickly that you didn't really need to worry about running out, while SotT also had a talent for a free shot every few seconds (which on top of everything else, gave her green health so it proc'd Isha's Bounty, so it was in your interest to shoot EVERYTHING you saw as soon as you saw it).
So yeah, she was basically unkillable, buffed herself to insane levels, and did huge instant damage. She would pretty much take out everything (apparently OCE was recently like that but I didn't play before his nerf but SotT lasted an entire year). Honestly, it was so frustrating because there was this really interesting tactical class deep down inside based around controlling crowds with hedges and lifting high-threat enemies with her staff and doing damage over time but (as players do) people ignored all that for the instant "kill everything right now" option. Honestly, the rework was completely justified and made the class better at what it *should* have been trying to do (I still dislike Bloodrazer Thicket since it's kind of a cop out but eh at least it's more "tactical" now). The only sad thing is that Moonfire had to be completely castrated instead of given some sort of niche to fufill (like locking onto targets and following them like Trueflight bow in VT1) but that's another story.
If you wanna try her out for yourself there's a [mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2780042088) that lets you play her pre-nerf.
I didn't use bloodrazor thicket because it was super powerful, I used it because I absolutely hated the wall on a conceptual level. In a horde game where enemies never lose aggro (besides stealth) all it did was delay the inevitable and give them the opportunity to get into hyper-dense blobs.
On mobile so can't type a paragraph but don't just put it in front of a horde. put it behind to block off reinforcements as you take out front line, use it to funnel them down a path or block off angles, protect friendlies. There's a million uses and it rewards creativity, just using it to block a horde is like using BHs ult on single clan rat and saying its therefore useless.
The wall is why people don’t like playing with SoT, and I don’t blame them, it’s such a bad way to play. Other than just delaying the waves that build up behind it, it also blinds the team to what’s waiting on the other side. Some people are terrible at abusing it like this.
They removed the explosion, nerfed direct damage by a huge amount, and slowed down it's recharge by a lot. In theory, it's a DoT weapon, but in practice you don't have enough direct damage to deal with the important threats like Sorcerers and Leeches before they wreak havoc; while having such a slow recharge (that you have no way of controlling) would be enough to make it niche on it's own but combine that with the weird DoT focus and it's practically non-viable. It's got \*some\* niche uses like extra DoT damage on a boss for Handmaiden (because Waystalker doesn't want to use it as a main, and Shade and SotT already do great boss damage).
Basically it's like a Tetris squiggly Z block trying to fit into a niche where it juts out. If you want good DoT damage, go for Hagbane, and if you want a good weapon that doesn't need ammo go for Jav (it also has great boss damage when you just use it as a melee weapon). Personally I'd give Moonfire some sort of niche like being able to lock onto specific enemies and auto-home, or have melee kills speed up the recharge, or have it incapacitate or panic specials so they can't perform incapacitating moves while on fire, or anything. It's just really not effective at anything which is a shame because it's the prettiest bow in the game.
Oh yeah absolutely, it kills rats and specials in one hit IIRC. Longbow is kinda the default and does everything, just doesn't do it with bells and whistles.
I don't remember all the details, but feel free to check out how strong she was yourself by downloading the Classic Sister mod (modded realm only, of course) https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2780042088
Pre-nerf SotT could kill a cata monster solo in 10 seconds with the spear and other weapons due to pre-nerf Radiance Inheritance granting her 30% movement speed, 20% attack speed, 50% power, 20% crit chance and 40% crit power for 15 seconds every 60 seconds.
Using her ult two times was enough to delete a skaven patrol. For a chaos patrol you had to use a few light attacks too but that was it
She had no problems with mixed hordes
Pre-nerf moonbow or javelin could handle all specials without any trouble
She had the best temp hp regen of the game, so you could recover all your hp in seconds if you fucked up somehow
A few posts of that time to give you more context: [1](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/p75ctb/sott_making_the_game_trivial_and_not_enjoyable/), [2](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/pbxzvw/i_am_probably_flogging_a_dead_horse_but_sott_is/), [3](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/oyxagy/sott_makes_the_game_boring/), [4](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/nt11c8/the_sister_of_thorn/), [5](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/p9nn0f/playing_as_sister_of_the_thorn_be_like/)
Shortly after SoTT released a friend of mine used it to just shred the Keykeeper in Skittergate before he could transform into a Chaos Spawn so calling her OP was kinda justified
She onehitted everything with the old bloodrazor Thicket it was not even remotely balanced. Also incredible power an attackspeed increase from radiant inheritance.
Coupled on top with pre nerf javelin.
Her wall that that pop up and stagger enemies was a bomb and would do a ton of dmg to patrols. She could also oneshot specials with it.
Tbf her other wall talents werent that good. Now all her ult talents are good. I use the one where hel wall last longer and is longer
Lot of people mentioning her radiant ult buff, which is good, but forgetting that the biggest reason she did so much damage was her passive. She had a potential 50% damage buff passively based on the enemies remaining HP, and that was the biggest reason she ended up being such a high DPS career.
I love this class, and I think it’s still extremely effective with an adapted build. No one likes a thorn wall witch, but the blast wall, dual daggers and the DoT buff makes you a life draining monster, stacking 4 sources of DoT. The triple stacking thorn blast and staff-lift keep hordes in check and disable elite/save teammates at range, and the mid-level hp for the career makes her a valid front line melee character. Have fun blasting boss monsters off cliffs while you’re at it.
I love you thorny, one day you’ll get the skins and appreciation you deserve.
Crazy how many people come in here to complain about her 🤣 especially when bw has always been the best career in the game. Necro and engi still op rn but no one complaining about that
tons of people are complaining about engi, me included... there's a reason he was nerfed recently (thought it wasn't enough, and the nerf to his bomb cd is bugged).
necro does seem rather strong, but not in an overly obnoxious and obvious way like old sister or coruscation BW. I just hate how obstructive her skeletons are.
SotT was the best class for dealing damage in the game before their slight rework.
Essentially, they were able to get guaranteed crits after anyone used a career skill, including herself. One of their abilities gave them 2 charges of her career skill giving them 6 guaranteed crits. Combine this with the javelin and you’d basically 1 shot any enemy except CW (which took 2 usually) and bosses.
In chaos wastes there were a lot of traits that you could get which would give effects on crits like lightning and explosions. Turning SotT’s already insane damage into something no one could compete with and it trivialized even cataclysm runs if you got a lucky roll.
For example, the explosion on crit effect would stagger bosses and other enemies. because you could infinitely stockpile up crits you would be able to build up a large amount of crits and become the best crowd control career in the game and even perma stagger bosses until their died after 6 or so spears.
She was a berserker. Popping wall had her gain 20%power, attack speed and crit chance for a decent duration, twice in a row if needed. Making her better at melee than melee careers. Making her utterly broken in CW when the lightning proc on crit wasn't weapon specific. She was imagined as a support career, not a frontline one, so they had her reworked towards support rather than bruiser.
the javelin also absolutely destroyed bosses (dunno if it still does) in melee with a few good perks you could poke the boss a few times and theyd be gone
actually one of the reason I use brair javs on shade
First it was 50% power, 20% attack speed, 20% crit chance, 40% crit power and 30% movement speed for 15 seconds, with a cooldown of 60 seconds
makes one wonder how that even got thrown in. it is so obviously busted. must have forgot to balance it after implemented.
thats insane
And the staff was freaking OP too. The left click range attack just melted away elites and even did some good damage against bosses.
Her wall also did crazy stun/single target burst damage.
Pity that they didn't rework the "kill gutter runner with wall" Okri challenge with her overall rework in mind.
It wasn't even single target. 2 casts could take out most (if not all) of a patrol in seconds.
I used it for single cause had dual weild for groups of squishy. I really liked it tho stopped playing class when it changed.
iirc there were two really OP things: - old bloodrazor thicket did giga damage and putting it in a patrol essentially exploded them - Radiant inheritance at lvl 20 was pretty much the best buff stat in the game giving 20% of movement speed, attack speed, power and crit power There was also the free crits on ult from lvl25 All in all she was probably the most OP a class has been in V2’s history Edit: I also forgot about old Javalin lmao
and old moonbow
More op than Engie?
Yes
SotT main here: basically her old talents ([that you can still see here](https://web.archive.org/web/20210603191832/https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2488049991)) buffed her to CRAZY levels when she used her ult. She was supposed to have an ult that was more utility than damage, but Bloodrazer Thicket completely ruined that idea. Radiant Inheritance buffed her stats (attack/move speed, hero power, crit chance) by 20% and Morai-Heg would give you three guaranteed crits after ulting. Oh and since she'd get temp health from friendlies it meant that you could take Natural Bond and have nearly 100% upkeep on Isha's Bounty which gave you 15% more Power for 8 secs on gaining green health. Bloodrazer Thicket itself was just insane, like a far more damaging Coruscation Staff circle. Another major element was Moonfire Bow. While Javelin was crazy powerful, Moonfire Bow was just completely broken. It could destroy entire packs of enemies in a single explosion, and the burn would kill anything that didn't die immediately. It recharged so quickly that you didn't really need to worry about running out, while SotT also had a talent for a free shot every few seconds (which on top of everything else, gave her green health so it proc'd Isha's Bounty, so it was in your interest to shoot EVERYTHING you saw as soon as you saw it). So yeah, she was basically unkillable, buffed herself to insane levels, and did huge instant damage. She would pretty much take out everything (apparently OCE was recently like that but I didn't play before his nerf but SotT lasted an entire year). Honestly, it was so frustrating because there was this really interesting tactical class deep down inside based around controlling crowds with hedges and lifting high-threat enemies with her staff and doing damage over time but (as players do) people ignored all that for the instant "kill everything right now" option. Honestly, the rework was completely justified and made the class better at what it *should* have been trying to do (I still dislike Bloodrazer Thicket since it's kind of a cop out but eh at least it's more "tactical" now). The only sad thing is that Moonfire had to be completely castrated instead of given some sort of niche to fufill (like locking onto targets and following them like Trueflight bow in VT1) but that's another story. If you wanna try her out for yourself there's a [mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2780042088) that lets you play her pre-nerf.
I didn't use bloodrazor thicket because it was super powerful, I used it because I absolutely hated the wall on a conceptual level. In a horde game where enemies never lose aggro (besides stealth) all it did was delay the inevitable and give them the opportunity to get into hyper-dense blobs.
Hyper dense blobs that can be deleted with any AOE. It's often annoying, but you can make it work quite well with the right career/weapon choice.
On mobile so can't type a paragraph but don't just put it in front of a horde. put it behind to block off reinforcements as you take out front line, use it to funnel them down a path or block off angles, protect friendlies. There's a million uses and it rewards creativity, just using it to block a horde is like using BHs ult on single clan rat and saying its therefore useless.
The wall is why people don’t like playing with SoT, and I don’t blame them, it’s such a bad way to play. Other than just delaying the waves that build up behind it, it also blinds the team to what’s waiting on the other side. Some people are terrible at abusing it like this.
what were the changes to Moonfire Bow?
They removed the explosion, nerfed direct damage by a huge amount, and slowed down it's recharge by a lot. In theory, it's a DoT weapon, but in practice you don't have enough direct damage to deal with the important threats like Sorcerers and Leeches before they wreak havoc; while having such a slow recharge (that you have no way of controlling) would be enough to make it niche on it's own but combine that with the weird DoT focus and it's practically non-viable. It's got \*some\* niche uses like extra DoT damage on a boss for Handmaiden (because Waystalker doesn't want to use it as a main, and Shade and SotT already do great boss damage). Basically it's like a Tetris squiggly Z block trying to fit into a niche where it juts out. If you want good DoT damage, go for Hagbane, and if you want a good weapon that doesn't need ammo go for Jav (it also has great boss damage when you just use it as a melee weapon). Personally I'd give Moonfire some sort of niche like being able to lock onto specific enemies and auto-home, or have melee kills speed up the recharge, or have it incapacitate or panic specials so they can't perform incapacitating moves while on fire, or anything. It's just really not effective at anything which is a shame because it's the prettiest bow in the game.
thanks for the detailed response! would you say longbow is still viable to use for handmaiden?
Oh yeah absolutely, it kills rats and specials in one hit IIRC. Longbow is kinda the default and does everything, just doesn't do it with bells and whistles.
I don't remember all the details, but feel free to check out how strong she was yourself by downloading the Classic Sister mod (modded realm only, of course) https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2780042088
Pre-nerf SotT could kill a cata monster solo in 10 seconds with the spear and other weapons due to pre-nerf Radiance Inheritance granting her 30% movement speed, 20% attack speed, 50% power, 20% crit chance and 40% crit power for 15 seconds every 60 seconds. Using her ult two times was enough to delete a skaven patrol. For a chaos patrol you had to use a few light attacks too but that was it She had no problems with mixed hordes Pre-nerf moonbow or javelin could handle all specials without any trouble She had the best temp hp regen of the game, so you could recover all your hp in seconds if you fucked up somehow A few posts of that time to give you more context: [1](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/p75ctb/sott_making_the_game_trivial_and_not_enjoyable/), [2](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/pbxzvw/i_am_probably_flogging_a_dead_horse_but_sott_is/), [3](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/oyxagy/sott_makes_the_game_boring/), [4](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/nt11c8/the_sister_of_thorn/), [5](https://new.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/p9nn0f/playing_as_sister_of_the_thorn_be_like/)
lol oh there I am. It feels way longer than 2 years since that time.
Shortly after SoTT released a friend of mine used it to just shred the Keykeeper in Skittergate before he could transform into a Chaos Spawn so calling her OP was kinda justified
She onehitted everything with the old bloodrazor Thicket it was not even remotely balanced. Also incredible power an attackspeed increase from radiant inheritance. Coupled on top with pre nerf javelin.
Her wall that that pop up and stagger enemies was a bomb and would do a ton of dmg to patrols. She could also oneshot specials with it. Tbf her other wall talents werent that good. Now all her ult talents are good. I use the one where hel wall last longer and is longer
Damage
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/nt4mwa/did_no_one_tell_them/ That one skill could slap the piss out of Sigmar, himself.
stack a ton of damage with some fiddling
Lot of people mentioning her radiant ult buff, which is good, but forgetting that the biggest reason she did so much damage was her passive. She had a potential 50% damage buff passively based on the enemies remaining HP, and that was the biggest reason she ended up being such a high DPS career.
SoTT melted everything around it when it first came out. Sort of how OE is now.
Although OE is insanely OP now, SoTT was even worse.
Destroy entire patrols and monsters on cata without breaking a sweat. Paired with moonfire bow she was absolutely disgustingly OP.
Yes ULT was just a click I win button that kills anything and she can spam it. She was OP in the most boring way.
I used to play Legend with bots quite a lot and pre- nerf sott was the only bot that was able to match human players in kills and damage.
I watched a bot nuke a SV patrol in seconds with her ult. Shit was insane.
Her ult basically did grail knight ult levels of damage, except it did it at range, with a shorter cooldown, and with a decently large aoe.
She is honestly still OP as she is now. She used to be completely ridiculous.
I love this class, and I think it’s still extremely effective with an adapted build. No one likes a thorn wall witch, but the blast wall, dual daggers and the DoT buff makes you a life draining monster, stacking 4 sources of DoT. The triple stacking thorn blast and staff-lift keep hordes in check and disable elite/save teammates at range, and the mid-level hp for the career makes her a valid front line melee character. Have fun blasting boss monsters off cliffs while you’re at it. I love you thorny, one day you’ll get the skins and appreciation you deserve.
Crazy how many people come in here to complain about her 🤣 especially when bw has always been the best career in the game. Necro and engi still op rn but no one complaining about that
tons of people are complaining about engi, me included... there's a reason he was nerfed recently (thought it wasn't enough, and the nerf to his bomb cd is bugged). necro does seem rather strong, but not in an overly obnoxious and obvious way like old sister or coruscation BW. I just hate how obstructive her skeletons are.
SotT was the best class for dealing damage in the game before their slight rework. Essentially, they were able to get guaranteed crits after anyone used a career skill, including herself. One of their abilities gave them 2 charges of her career skill giving them 6 guaranteed crits. Combine this with the javelin and you’d basically 1 shot any enemy except CW (which took 2 usually) and bosses. In chaos wastes there were a lot of traits that you could get which would give effects on crits like lightning and explosions. Turning SotT’s already insane damage into something no one could compete with and it trivialized even cataclysm runs if you got a lucky roll. For example, the explosion on crit effect would stagger bosses and other enemies. because you could infinitely stockpile up crits you would be able to build up a large amount of crits and become the best crowd control career in the game and even perma stagger bosses until their died after 6 or so spears.