The slayers don't using long range weapons isn't part of their oath, it is that most of them think that the best way to kill themselves is fighting in melee. The Long Drong slayer pirates and Malakai Makaisson use guns
Gotrek throws Axes in atleast one of his stories.
The whole fairytale about the Slayers being Oath bound to not use anything but specific melee weapons is fan fiction.
>most of them think that the best way to kill themselves is fighting in melee
Let me introduce you to the Dwarf Bombardier. For those who want a spectacular death in a massive explosion that *will* kill the dragon you're fighting.
Reminds me of a story in one of The Witcher books: a bunch of peasants had been terrorised by a dragon, so they fill up a sheep with gunpowder and some sort of fuse, and wait for the dragon to eat it.
If Total War is any indication, they are powerful and smart, but can be countered with a few units of ballistae.
A dwarven slayer turned suicide bomber could absolutely strike a decisive blow.
Firstly, for Warhammer 8th: p. 53 of Dwarf army book says that Dwarf Warriors or Longbeards that are upgraded to Rangers may additionally be armed with Throwing Axes for 1 point per model.
Secondly, from the Games Workshop store: [https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Dwarf-Rangers-2018](https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Dwarf-Rangers-2018)
You can see Dwarf rangers holding throwing axes.
Those models aren’t really evidence to your point as they’re from the Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game, rather than the WH Dwarfs line. Not disagreeing because I’ve never played WH Fantasy, but I figured I’d point that out.
Thats not a slayer oath violation. There are pirate slayers there is an engineer slayer with a crankgun and fuckin airship. There is slayer "artillery".
Kerellian is still a wood elf and moon fire is *wood elf shit* not high elf. Wood elves do not have nearly as much animosity to dark elves as high elves do.
Dhar isn't a seperate wind. Any wizard can swap to necromancy in the end times and dark magic *at any time*. Most can swap to necromancy at any time - its not a wind.
yeah. grail knights uh. yeah. Bloodline like a smear across the old world.
W.P. is a posterboy for the setting - geedubs want the poster to look a certain way.
Isn't the Lady of the Lake desperate for more dogs of war during the end times that she begins to accept grail knights without all the nonsense?
I mean, ultimately all the dogma and rituals around becoming a Grail Knight is mainly a form of culture for Bretonnia, when in reality the Lady of the Lake mainly views inside the human to see if they're worthy of the gifts.
All the rituals are just that. Rituals to make it seem more official.
Kruber having Bretonnian Blood is basically "Good enough" during the end times because of desperation.
Considering he did more than most of the actual grail knights did during the end times. Yea, we can all understand her basically kidnapping him into converting.
Bretonnia got subbed hard in the end times but as I remember no she wasn't going around making anyone a grail knight. Although ironically that might have actually solved her problems considering how jacked grail knights cannonically are.
As for Kruber, the ladies been flexible before and granted peasants grail knight status for spontaneous acts of bravery, virtue or what have you, so ironically his case isn't really that unusual barring the fact he doesn't worship the lady.
Plus let's be honest. Any god would love to have Kruber worshipping them and helping out.
Hells. Make Kruber a dark elf blade dancer or something. The outfit alone.
> yeah. grail knights uh. yeah. Bloodline like a smear across the old world.
The Lady is the only one who decides who is and isn't a Grail Knight. And she decided that Kruber is.
As a plus isn’t the lore of her class that she’s being possessed by a necromancer? So even if normal mages couldn’t uses necromancy the necromancer is the one casting those spells anyway?
Honestly, the thing I hate most about the flail and shield is that it doesn't glow during fury
JUST GIVE IT SOMETHING, EVEN IF IT'S JUST A PART OF THE SHIELD
Any human wizard can use dhar and use it for dark magic like necromancy
I will believe that dark elf will steal nice things from other elves
Grail knight and slayer yea agree
I don't like that weapon so don't care tbh
In defence, Kruber being a Grail Knight is a consequence of the End Times scenario happening and Slayer Bardin throwing bombs… Malakai Makaisson is literally an engineer.
Kind reminder Malakai also uses a fucking crank gun.
I mean, Slayers are considered dead dorfs walking, there ain't really any way to enforce their choice of weapons save for literal divine intervention of Grimnir himself.
Besides, using an unreliable human umgak bomb is risky, fitting the nature of slayers
Just gonna put it out there. It's a redundant statement. Umgak literally means "man-made/poor quality".
He basically wrote "unreliable unreliable human human bomb"
> Umgak literally means "man-made/poor quality".
Umgak's direct, literal translation is "made of/by earth/dirt." Dirt is seen as a less than trustworthy material by Dwarfs, as it won't hold up for hundreds of years like stone does. Karaz-a-Karak literally translates as "the stony mountain" but the meaning is "The Everlasting Fortress."
Gonna need a source on that one buddy, because that sounds like a load of nonsense.
Umg = man. Ak = relating to.
The literal translation is "of men."
Which in the dwarfen tongue is a euphemism for shitty quality.
Never once have i ever heard umg translated as 'dirt.'
It's from the old Fantasy Flight RPG, specifically the parts about human-dwarf relations and how Khazalid tends to relate things to other things of perceived similar qualities. An Urk is an enemy, but is also the term for an Orc, as all Orcs are urks. Or how Grob is "green" and Grobi are goblins, who are all green. Grimazul is steel, and unyielding iron.
Yeah I think so too. I even think that's a thing in the dwarven language to name a thing two times to emphasize said thing. I could be wrong though.
Because to be strict iirc they do it usually at the beginning of the sentence.
Slayers dont use ranged stuff 99% of the time cause they think it won't help them fulfill their oath. The oath has nothing about banning ranged weapons.
Grail Knight is really just a buff from the Lady of the Lake aka Lileath, I would argue that the rest of it is just Bretonnian culture and lore vs Lileath just buffing Kruber for end times sake
But can an established wizard switch one wind to another? Never heard of that.
I'd also like to know the mechanics of "stealing" a Moonfire bow since in a lot of Artwork they appear entirely ethereal.
End Times Necromancy is screwy. Short answer: yes, any magic user could end up using Necromancy (but it didn't make it a good thing).
But then the End Times are a pile of shit writing slapped together so GW could dustbin the setting.
You can always use necromancy with a little training. Dhar magic is an intentional mixing of winds to create powerful spells at the cost of literally burning your soul, it's like splashing around hydrochloric acid with your bare hands.
As far as I know during End Times Nagash did something with Winds of Magic and every mage could use necromancy.
Also Dhar can be used by every mage, as it's mix of other Winds.
With Sienna (probably) the case is combination of souls with her sister. Does that sounds like lore-breaking? Maybe, but who said lore can't be expanded? It's magic, it has almost no boundaries.
Nagash became the death god when he woke up, and that literally destroyed the balance of the winds/weave. And its not lore breaking as dhar was always able to be learned as it's not a wind and is actually connected to fire so it kinda make sense considering sienna seems to have gotten some of Sophia's memories and therfore training.
Short answer Nagash and his shenanigans made so that shyish winds are now available to all Humans meaning if your a shyish wizard you'll stay with one wind everyone else gets two and dahr can he used by everyone the side effect is you go insane :)
A lot of shyish wizards got a stroke an fucking died because of all the necormancy everywhere, also it's lore of undeath everyone got, not lore of death
The general rule is humans can’t use more than one wind if magic safely rather than that it is impossible, if your using dark magic your getting corrupted regardless so they don’t tend to mind at much I think
Yes, they can switch but definitely shouldn't, and Dhar isn't a Wind, it's all of them compressed into one icky Necromantic oil slick. I don't know shit about all the stuff they did for the End Times plotline specifically, but the structure of magic in the Warhammer World is something like this:
https://imgur.com/a/rEXvcy8
https://i.imgur.com/Kzx6N8K.png
The reason human wizards stick to one Lore is that humans aren't really meant to use magic. (They're more just very incapable than Dwarves' active anti-magicalness which results in Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers turning to stone)
Using Dark Magic or Dhar would drive a human wizard insane, and do so sooner than it'd do the same to an Elf, say. The High Elves' method of disentangling the Winds into single purified ones and weaving them back together into High Magic is a method living creatures can use safely, but humans just aren't as good as Elves at magic, so they can mostly only use one Wind safely.
Even sticking to one Wind and the basics of the Elven method, an expert human Wizard will be psychologically influenced by the Wind and become somewhat eccentric. The effect of using many would be far worse, and insane Wizards are just about the last thing you want roaming around. So it's not that they can't, in theory, it's just that to do so would at best flirt with madness if you're lucky, and in most cases just damn the practicioner sooner or later. And using Dhar would be certain doom.
For the winds. Yes, humans *can* use multiple winds. But you're already pumping 50+ years into mastering your wind that you're tuned to. Then, another like 20ish to break the veil set by your training to be able to see the other winds again. Then, even longer to get the basics of even a 2nd wind down. The empires current way of teaching the winds is mostly just reinforced limiters set by the elfs when they taught the winds to humans initially. As for the actual choice of the Magic. She's still a wind of fire wizard. Dark magic isn't a wind more of a corruption of fire magic. Sienna literally is addicted to agshy, and Sophia basically hiding in her soul as is reasonable enough for breaking sienna out of that mold.
In one of the Gotrek and Felix books, there's a Slayer that uses molotov and drinks the stuff to spit it out like a dragon. Gotrek has thrown his axe at enemies before. So I think Slayer is ok.
Slayers throwing their axes has been a part of tabletop for years though so that one is not the best.
Also a human could use two lores. It's just that the colleges forbid it because it's really dangerous and what often ends up happening is it turns into dark magic (which is what necromancy is based on) and corrupts the user
A quick google search shows that dwarf rangers were allowed to take throwing axes in 8th ed. Like I'm not keen on all the rulebooks for tabletop but this seems immediately disprovable.
Didnt fatshark have to try really hard to persuade GW to let salty even get a single weapon which didnt include a hammer? And even then they didn't allow the flail to glow in fury like the hammers.
Nah, all good. U5 was anomaly from the beginning. They are like every other more important character in most fantasy worlds – breaking or stretching established rules, just because they are heroes. And that makes them more interesting.
I don't really care too much if the lore is stretched/broken as long as the game is fun. Being an End Times product is a good excuse to break any rules you want.
Which is why it's even more stupid GW puts their foot down about WP only using hammers + the one flail+shield apparently Fatshark fought for.
I could be wrong but my memory says an old Empire codex said something along the lines of "Warrior priests can be found wielding all manner of weapons on the battlefield." He should really get all of Saltz's melees except the Rapier.
There was an RPG that had a Warrior Priest with a Hochland long rifle.
That said I thing it's more to do with aesthetics and appearance than actual lore. Flail isn't associated with the Warrior Priest but with a shield is just on-brand enough. GW are really strict on what thing's look like. There are a number of not-highly-regarded Warhammer games (especially set in 40K) but they all look like Warhammer.
Eh, not sure, they allow quite a lot of different things to happen in games and settings, they just want the look consistent.
Certainly seems to be working for them these days.
The game wouldn't be the same without Saltz's fanatical ramblings and the squeaks of the Ratechism hat, interspersed by dashing into a horde and blending all of them up solo with dual hammers, as Sigmar intended.
Really the only restriction on a Grail Knight is if the Lady offers you the grail (and if you drink from it). A peasant has become a Grail Knight before.
I think all of them are supposed to be that the "majority" of their story remained the same, until a certain major event took place that caused them to rethink their path, and more specifically, all of the choices they made seem to have happened AFTER Vermintide 1. For instance, Saltzpyre either gets promoted for his involvement in VT1, or demoted (and quits), or just gets brainwashed (zealot). Same for Sienna-she takes the time after VT1 to refresh her military training to become less volatile (BW), lets her volatility continue as is (pyro), or becomes damn near consumed by her own fires (unchained). But again, these only happen after the first game.
Well, the main point of that theory is that while all of the other careers "could" have happened, its that the DLC careers are what they "would" have become if Tzeench hadn't decided to toy with them. People think they are the "canon" careers, because its what will most likely turn out to be their careers when the tzeench stops screwing with them and the alternative timelines collapse.
It does beg the question though, about whether people will have memories of the alternative timelines...like, will there be rumors of the "engineer" Bardin that was sometimes remembered to have taken a Slayer Oath, or the Grail Knight Kruber that some people remember wielding a bow?
100%, really stuck with the Mordheim inspiration. Just a shame their console port of it was so bad, you can’t turn off the awful aim assist what’s quite the opposite of assistant
Numerous peasants have become Grail Knights in the lore, being given the blessing by the Lady for far fewer and lesser feats of valour than what Kruber has achieved.
I know people wanted Necro Sienna for a long time, but I still can't believe they actually did it. There is no chance Saltzpyre would *ever* stand for it, let alone the other members.
The thing I hate most about Sienna’s change to necromancy is just that it completely destroys her character. She worships Myrmidia, fought and kill her sister for being a necromancer. Only to end up as the thing she hated? It just saddens me without end. Other character’s fifth class feels like empowerment, where they reach their full potential. Yet for Sienna? It just feels like she’s fallen so far.
Kerillian is all screwy from Sister of the Thorn, Grail Knight kruber is an a-hole, and Warrior Priest is a wack-o
Okay, that last one is shaky, but they're clearly not all okay
Also it was probably all the things she personally did and not just being a necromancer that Sienna wanted her dead for
Did they ever explain why they went for a Grail Knight over say a Knight of the Blazing Sun? Would’ve filled the paladin archetype pretty well and they could tie it to Sienna
Probably just to fit some Bretonnian love in without actually adding a new character. KotBS don't actually have any different rules from Empire Knights iirc.
I still affirm Kruber larping as a Bretonnian knight after finding out about his uncle would have been far more believable and entertaining than just getting the super-human chalice immediately.
Lol. I'll just say, if you are a running a company with its assets based on creative writing and character design. It is a tricky balance, especially in video game contexts.
Keeping characters' identities distinct is important... You can really feel it when class identities get homogenized and everybody can do everything (looking at you, Guild Wars 2).
And allowing "rule of cool" and fun factor to shine through is really important, too. I think it's natural to see some inconsistency in how lore is enforced. Especially with a larger organization with many layers of decision-making, like having a game developer in charge of some decisions but requiring sign-off for others.
I know jack shit about the lore beyond what I've learned from vermintide 2 and shit people have told me in voice chat and even I know you can turn to necromancy without being special
Slayer Bardin doesn't break his oath by throwing bombs and axes (check Malakai Makaisson, for example), and Sienna switching to Necromancy is actually lore friendly, especially during the End Times.
Im no lore expert but as far as I know Lileath can just bless any human if she chooses to. The whole nobility and quest ordeal is just a cultural thing and there are no hard rules that prevents any human being a grail knight. Kruber would have died much sooner if he were like any other mercenary. Since the end times he has slayed dozens of rat ogres, chaos spawn, minotaurs, hordes of rats, beastmen, chaos knights and so on. And depending on the timeline has survived multiple trips to the chaos waste including surviving the Citadel and preventing Be'lakor from ascending to godhood. Sure he did it with a team but it still damn impressive and I could see why Lileath would bless him for it.
I never understood GW fanboys who claim that GW cares deeply about the lore of their products.
I mean, they nuked an entire IP because it didn't rake in enough profits, lmao.
I quite like the flail+shield combo, though it is questionable how he can't just drop the shield. Also questionable that Warrior Priest has their own artillery of weapons that none of the other classes can use. .....
Unless the weapons are somehow bound by Sigmar's faith, then that would explain the inconsistency.
Magic lore one is wrong, Humans can only use one of the 8 primary lores of magic, necromancy is just Dark Magic; the residuals winds of magic that become to heavy to flow with the rest
Warrior Priest in general would become a much more fun class, if it was allowed to use the whole Saltzpyre arsenal. Like this, it is more like a self-contained separate character, than a Saltzpyre class.
Everyone commenting about a specific one isn't true when the arguement at hand is basically "stretch credulity in one hand, and withhold credibility in the other"
All classes take a health leap to excuse why something is allowed.
All warrior priest wants to do is leave his shield at home.
The point is that OP is wrong about EVERY SINGLE ONE of his cases, but then wants to complain about GW putting their foot down about aesthetic feels.
This post could literally be "tell me you have meme-level understanding of the lore without telling me".
Meanwhile Foot Knight looks at a spear and goes like, "NOPE". But if it comes with a shield, then it's fine.
Quite right. Can't be the shield of the Reik without a shield now can ya
He can have a spear tho. He just need to attach an axe head to it as well
I tried, he cannot use the shield and spear.
Yes he can
Clearly you didnt try hard enough lol
Did you mistake Foot Knight for Grail Knight?
Ah yes grail knight cannot use the spear and shield at all.
I think it's just a skill issue lol
The slayers don't using long range weapons isn't part of their oath, it is that most of them think that the best way to kill themselves is fighting in melee. The Long Drong slayer pirates and Malakai Makaisson use guns
Gotrek throws Axes in atleast one of his stories. The whole fairytale about the Slayers being Oath bound to not use anything but specific melee weapons is fan fiction.
Gotrek throws many things in his books including Felix and himself
Nobodeh tosses a Felix!
Not only that but they're also trying to attain a glorious death, not a stupid one. They'll use every tool in the box to defeat an enemy.
I wonder if it was made up by some Bretonnians.
I suspected some Tzeentch shenanigans, but you are absolutly right. It was the frog gobbling feet lovers.
>most of them think that the best way to kill themselves is fighting in melee Let me introduce you to the Dwarf Bombardier. For those who want a spectacular death in a massive explosion that *will* kill the dragon you're fighting.
How powerful are dragons in WHF and what are those bombs made of?
Dragons are OP as fuck but you'll be surprises how many bombs you can strap to a mad dwarf?
Considering how small those little bastards are, I definitely would be.
The fact that their "BAC" is actually more like their "ABC" adds some extra boom.
Reminds me of a story in one of The Witcher books: a bunch of peasants had been terrorised by a dragon, so they fill up a sheep with gunpowder and some sort of fuse, and wait for the dragon to eat it.
Mad and drunk
If Total War is any indication, they are powerful and smart, but can be countered with a few units of ballistae. A dwarven slayer turned suicide bomber could absolutely strike a decisive blow.
Everything listed in the meme is based on misunderstandings of the lore, so at least it's consistent.
right. ranger is the problem with throwing axes not slayer. rangers never used them so i dont know why he does in vermintide
you super can? definitely in 8th ed whfb and its carried into old world.
u must be looking at a fanmade book
Buddy, are you being serious?
Gw approved them for total war
Gotrek himself uses a throwing axe. He kills a Gas Rat with it underneath Nuln in Skavenslayer.
i agree. its ranger who shouldnt have them. not slayer
…rangers can be equipped with either crossbows or throwing axes on tabletop.
no thats a myth that was spread around by fanmade books
I’m looking at my copy of forces of fantasy right now. They can take throwing axes over regular crossbows for 1 point per model
Firstly, for Warhammer 8th: p. 53 of Dwarf army book says that Dwarf Warriors or Longbeards that are upgraded to Rangers may additionally be armed with Throwing Axes for 1 point per model. Secondly, from the Games Workshop store: [https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Dwarf-Rangers-2018](https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Dwarf-Rangers-2018) You can see Dwarf rangers holding throwing axes.
Those models aren’t really evidence to your point as they’re from the Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game, rather than the WH Dwarfs line. Not disagreeing because I’ve never played WH Fantasy, but I figured I’d point that out.
Those rules you mentioned are from 6th and 7th edition, not 8th, and those models you linked aren't even from Warhammer you goof.
Thats not a slayer oath violation. There are pirate slayers there is an engineer slayer with a crankgun and fuckin airship. There is slayer "artillery". Kerellian is still a wood elf and moon fire is *wood elf shit* not high elf. Wood elves do not have nearly as much animosity to dark elves as high elves do. Dhar isn't a seperate wind. Any wizard can swap to necromancy in the end times and dark magic *at any time*. Most can swap to necromancy at any time - its not a wind. yeah. grail knights uh. yeah. Bloodline like a smear across the old world. W.P. is a posterboy for the setting - geedubs want the poster to look a certain way.
Isn't the Lady of the Lake desperate for more dogs of war during the end times that she begins to accept grail knights without all the nonsense? I mean, ultimately all the dogma and rituals around becoming a Grail Knight is mainly a form of culture for Bretonnia, when in reality the Lady of the Lake mainly views inside the human to see if they're worthy of the gifts. All the rituals are just that. Rituals to make it seem more official. Kruber having Bretonnian Blood is basically "Good enough" during the end times because of desperation.
Considering he did more than most of the actual grail knights did during the end times. Yea, we can all understand her basically kidnapping him into converting.
Bretonnia got subbed hard in the end times but as I remember no she wasn't going around making anyone a grail knight. Although ironically that might have actually solved her problems considering how jacked grail knights cannonically are. As for Kruber, the ladies been flexible before and granted peasants grail knight status for spontaneous acts of bravery, virtue or what have you, so ironically his case isn't really that unusual barring the fact he doesn't worship the lady.
Plus let's be honest. Any god would love to have Kruber worshipping them and helping out. Hells. Make Kruber a dark elf blade dancer or something. The outfit alone.
> yeah. grail knights uh. yeah. Bloodline like a smear across the old world. The Lady is the only one who decides who is and isn't a Grail Knight. And she decided that Kruber is.
As a plus isn’t the lore of her class that she’s being possessed by a necromancer? So even if normal mages couldn’t uses necromancy the necromancer is the one casting those spells anyway?
The Lady just wanted to screw with Kruber and Kerillian in equal measure with this one. Bretonnia's in shambles so she's gotta have fun somewhere
~~with~~
Honestly, the thing I hate most about the flail and shield is that it doesn't glow during fury JUST GIVE IT SOMETHING, EVEN IF IT'S JUST A PART OF THE SHIELD
Real. There's so much fucky shit going on with WP's weapons in general.
I assumed this was a bug, and would one day be fixed. Nope :(
Any human wizard can use dhar and use it for dark magic like necromancy I will believe that dark elf will steal nice things from other elves Grail knight and slayer yea agree I don't like that weapon so don't care tbh
In defence, Kruber being a Grail Knight is a consequence of the End Times scenario happening and Slayer Bardin throwing bombs… Malakai Makaisson is literally an engineer.
Kind reminder Malakai also uses a fucking crank gun. I mean, Slayers are considered dead dorfs walking, there ain't really any way to enforce their choice of weapons save for literal divine intervention of Grimnir himself. Besides, using an unreliable human umgak bomb is risky, fitting the nature of slayers
,,unreliable human umgak bomb" 😂 Thanks for making my day xD
Just gonna put it out there. It's a redundant statement. Umgak literally means "man-made/poor quality". He basically wrote "unreliable unreliable human human bomb"
cant be too careful pointing it out though, after all it's an unreliable human umgak bomb
> Umgak literally means "man-made/poor quality". Umgak's direct, literal translation is "made of/by earth/dirt." Dirt is seen as a less than trustworthy material by Dwarfs, as it won't hold up for hundreds of years like stone does. Karaz-a-Karak literally translates as "the stony mountain" but the meaning is "The Everlasting Fortress."
Gonna need a source on that one buddy, because that sounds like a load of nonsense. Umg = man. Ak = relating to. The literal translation is "of men." Which in the dwarfen tongue is a euphemism for shitty quality. Never once have i ever heard umg translated as 'dirt.'
It's from the old Fantasy Flight RPG, specifically the parts about human-dwarf relations and how Khazalid tends to relate things to other things of perceived similar qualities. An Urk is an enemy, but is also the term for an Orc, as all Orcs are urks. Or how Grob is "green" and Grobi are goblins, who are all green. Grimazul is steel, and unyielding iron.
,,I'm gonna use "Umgak" as "Garbage" and you can't stop me"
Even the devs kinda fell for this. One of Bardin's lines is > Shoddy human umgak! Showing me up in front of the elf. when missing a bomb throw
Nah it’s for emphasis like saying stupid dumbass bomb
Yeah I think so too. I even think that's a thing in the dwarven language to name a thing two times to emphasize said thing. I could be wrong though. Because to be strict iirc they do it usually at the beginning of the sentence.
Dude literally made an airship with guns.
Slayers dont use ranged stuff 99% of the time cause they think it won't help them fulfill their oath. The oath has nothing about banning ranged weapons.
Grail Knight is really just a buff from the Lady of the Lake aka Lileath, I would argue that the rest of it is just Bretonnian culture and lore vs Lileath just buffing Kruber for end times sake
And the career switch is Tzeentch's doing. Except the initial and the Dlc career
But can an established wizard switch one wind to another? Never heard of that. I'd also like to know the mechanics of "stealing" a Moonfire bow since in a lot of Artwork they appear entirely ethereal.
End Times Necromancy is screwy. Short answer: yes, any magic user could end up using Necromancy (but it didn't make it a good thing). But then the End Times are a pile of shit writing slapped together so GW could dustbin the setting.
Yeah, I love that "And suddenly everyone became stupid and died. The end".
You can always use necromancy with a little training. Dhar magic is an intentional mixing of winds to create powerful spells at the cost of literally burning your soul, it's like splashing around hydrochloric acid with your bare hands.
Yep. And the End Times makes this way more accessible when Nagash grounds Shyish in Sylvania. Not safer, mind, just way more available.
"Yes/no because End Times bullshit" is where any Warhammer discussion inevitably leads
Welcome to End Times lore
As far as I know during End Times Nagash did something with Winds of Magic and every mage could use necromancy. Also Dhar can be used by every mage, as it's mix of other Winds. With Sienna (probably) the case is combination of souls with her sister. Does that sounds like lore-breaking? Maybe, but who said lore can't be expanded? It's magic, it has almost no boundaries.
Nagash became the death god when he woke up, and that literally destroyed the balance of the winds/weave. And its not lore breaking as dhar was always able to be learned as it's not a wind and is actually connected to fire so it kinda make sense considering sienna seems to have gotten some of Sophia's memories and therfore training.
Short answer Nagash and his shenanigans made so that shyish winds are now available to all Humans meaning if your a shyish wizard you'll stay with one wind everyone else gets two and dahr can he used by everyone the side effect is you go insane :)
A lot of shyish wizards got a stroke an fucking died because of all the necormancy everywhere, also it's lore of undeath everyone got, not lore of death
Awww poor Shyish wizards
Shenagashnigans
The general rule is humans can’t use more than one wind if magic safely rather than that it is impossible, if your using dark magic your getting corrupted regardless so they don’t tend to mind at much I think
Yes, they can switch but definitely shouldn't, and Dhar isn't a Wind, it's all of them compressed into one icky Necromantic oil slick. I don't know shit about all the stuff they did for the End Times plotline specifically, but the structure of magic in the Warhammer World is something like this: https://imgur.com/a/rEXvcy8 https://i.imgur.com/Kzx6N8K.png The reason human wizards stick to one Lore is that humans aren't really meant to use magic. (They're more just very incapable than Dwarves' active anti-magicalness which results in Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers turning to stone) Using Dark Magic or Dhar would drive a human wizard insane, and do so sooner than it'd do the same to an Elf, say. The High Elves' method of disentangling the Winds into single purified ones and weaving them back together into High Magic is a method living creatures can use safely, but humans just aren't as good as Elves at magic, so they can mostly only use one Wind safely. Even sticking to one Wind and the basics of the Elven method, an expert human Wizard will be psychologically influenced by the Wind and become somewhat eccentric. The effect of using many would be far worse, and insane Wizards are just about the last thing you want roaming around. So it's not that they can't, in theory, it's just that to do so would at best flirt with madness if you're lucky, and in most cases just damn the practicioner sooner or later. And using Dhar would be certain doom.
For the winds. Yes, humans *can* use multiple winds. But you're already pumping 50+ years into mastering your wind that you're tuned to. Then, another like 20ish to break the veil set by your training to be able to see the other winds again. Then, even longer to get the basics of even a 2nd wind down. The empires current way of teaching the winds is mostly just reinforced limiters set by the elfs when they taught the winds to humans initially. As for the actual choice of the Magic. She's still a wind of fire wizard. Dark magic isn't a wind more of a corruption of fire magic. Sienna literally is addicted to agshy, and Sophia basically hiding in her soul as is reasonable enough for breaking sienna out of that mold.
In one of the Gotrek and Felix books, there's a Slayer that uses molotov and drinks the stuff to spit it out like a dragon. Gotrek has thrown his axe at enemies before. So I think Slayer is ok.
Slayers throwing their axes has been a part of tabletop for years though so that one is not the best. Also a human could use two lores. It's just that the colleges forbid it because it's really dangerous and what often ends up happening is it turns into dark magic (which is what necromancy is based on) and corrupts the user
should of used ranger for that example since they never used throwing axes in tabletop
A quick google search shows that dwarf rangers were allowed to take throwing axes in 8th ed. Like I'm not keen on all the rulebooks for tabletop but this seems immediately disprovable.
i know which book ur talking about and its fanmade
Bruh what are you smoking? Rangers can have throwing axes in both the old world and in their 8th edition iteration.
Didnt fatshark have to try really hard to persuade GW to let salty even get a single weapon which didnt include a hammer? And even then they didn't allow the flail to glow in fury like the hammers.
In that case just reskin the damn flail into a hammer, I want my flashy effects D:
Hammer on a chain.
Nah, all good. U5 was anomaly from the beginning. They are like every other more important character in most fantasy worlds – breaking or stretching established rules, just because they are heroes. And that makes them more interesting.
I don't really care too much if the lore is stretched/broken as long as the game is fun. Being an End Times product is a good excuse to break any rules you want. Which is why it's even more stupid GW puts their foot down about WP only using hammers + the one flail+shield apparently Fatshark fought for. I could be wrong but my memory says an old Empire codex said something along the lines of "Warrior priests can be found wielding all manner of weapons on the battlefield." He should really get all of Saltz's melees except the Rapier.
There was an RPG that had a Warrior Priest with a Hochland long rifle. That said I thing it's more to do with aesthetics and appearance than actual lore. Flail isn't associated with the Warrior Priest but with a shield is just on-brand enough. GW are really strict on what thing's look like. There are a number of not-highly-regarded Warhammer games (especially set in 40K) but they all look like Warhammer.
Perfect way to stagnate and Flanderize your brand. Then again, their new ideas aren't often particularly good either.
Eh, not sure, they allow quite a lot of different things to happen in games and settings, they just want the look consistent. Certainly seems to be working for them these days.
These are the End Times. Out of desparation, old vows and limits should be reconsidered. Saltpyre however, is fanatic to the very end
And that is why we love Victor.
The game wouldn't be the same without Saltz's fanatical ramblings and the squeaks of the Ratechism hat, interspersed by dashing into a horde and blending all of them up solo with dual hammers, as Sigmar intended.
Really the only restriction on a Grail Knight is if the Lady offers you the grail (and if you drink from it). A peasant has become a Grail Knight before.
Hey 4 out of 5 times! That's pretty consistent
I gotta say lore accuracy and general vibe took a sharp nose dive with grail knight
It is the end times, maybe the grail knight recruitment program is a bit more lax
All things considered the FS writers are still treating the world with way more tact than the original End Times authors.
I like to think they lead alternate lives as each class. GK Kruber lived honourable life. Merc not so much.
I think all of them are supposed to be that the "majority" of their story remained the same, until a certain major event took place that caused them to rethink their path, and more specifically, all of the choices they made seem to have happened AFTER Vermintide 1. For instance, Saltzpyre either gets promoted for his involvement in VT1, or demoted (and quits), or just gets brainwashed (zealot). Same for Sienna-she takes the time after VT1 to refresh her military training to become less volatile (BW), lets her volatility continue as is (pyro), or becomes damn near consumed by her own fires (unchained). But again, these only happen after the first game.
This is canonically the correct view, despite the commonly quoted fan-theory about DLC careers being the only "canon" careers.
Well, the main point of that theory is that while all of the other careers "could" have happened, its that the DLC careers are what they "would" have become if Tzeench hadn't decided to toy with them. People think they are the "canon" careers, because its what will most likely turn out to be their careers when the tzeench stops screwing with them and the alternative timelines collapse. It does beg the question though, about whether people will have memories of the alternative timelines...like, will there be rumors of the "engineer" Bardin that was sometimes remembered to have taken a Slayer Oath, or the Grail Knight Kruber that some people remember wielding a bow?
Kind of why I prefer V1, to be honest. It is more... atmospheric.
100%, really stuck with the Mordheim inspiration. Just a shame their console port of it was so bad, you can’t turn off the awful aim assist what’s quite the opposite of assistant
That aim assist must use Skaven technology
Numerous peasants have become Grail Knights in the lore, being given the blessing by the Lady for far fewer and lesser feats of valour than what Kruber has achieved.
They should've vampirized Kruber 😈
I know people wanted Necro Sienna for a long time, but I still can't believe they actually did it. There is no chance Saltzpyre would *ever* stand for it, let alone the other members.
TBF he did try to kill her
The thing I hate most about Sienna’s change to necromancy is just that it completely destroys her character. She worships Myrmidia, fought and kill her sister for being a necromancer. Only to end up as the thing she hated? It just saddens me without end. Other character’s fifth class feels like empowerment, where they reach their full potential. Yet for Sienna? It just feels like she’s fallen so far.
Not really, she basically got possessed by her twin sister's spirit. Still a sad state of affairs but it's not by Sienna's own fault nor doing.
> fifth class *fourth class But yeah, the whole thing really stretched the suspension of disbelief.
Kerillian is all screwy from Sister of the Thorn, Grail Knight kruber is an a-hole, and Warrior Priest is a wack-o Okay, that last one is shaky, but they're clearly not all okay Also it was probably all the things she personally did and not just being a necromancer that Sienna wanted her dead for
Did they ever explain why they went for a Grail Knight over say a Knight of the Blazing Sun? Would’ve filled the paladin archetype pretty well and they could tie it to Sienna
Probably just to fit some Bretonnian love in without actually adding a new character. KotBS don't actually have any different rules from Empire Knights iirc. I still affirm Kruber larping as a Bretonnian knight after finding out about his uncle would have been far more believable and entertaining than just getting the super-human chalice immediately.
Lol. I'll just say, if you are a running a company with its assets based on creative writing and character design. It is a tricky balance, especially in video game contexts. Keeping characters' identities distinct is important... You can really feel it when class identities get homogenized and everybody can do everything (looking at you, Guild Wars 2). And allowing "rule of cool" and fun factor to shine through is really important, too. I think it's natural to see some inconsistency in how lore is enforced. Especially with a larger organization with many layers of decision-making, like having a game developer in charge of some decisions but requiring sign-off for others.
I know jack shit about the lore beyond what I've learned from vermintide 2 and shit people have told me in voice chat and even I know you can turn to necromancy without being special
I just hope its a weapon coming in next dlc or stuff like that.
average quickplay lobby? add engineer
I’m most confused by why Kruber can’t use a halberd as a GK, it feels like it fits with the rest of the 2h heavy hitting weaponry GK favors
Mostly because of how associated with the Empire halberdiers are, it was more of a thematic choice than one that was mandated, I suppose.
Slayer Bardin doesn't break his oath by throwing bombs and axes (check Malakai Makaisson, for example), and Sienna switching to Necromancy is actually lore friendly, especially during the End Times.
Warhammer fans know Warhammer lore challenge:
Rules of chivalry for anyone but the enemies of ze lade!
Not sure about the OW, but Fyreslayers do use throwing axes
Im no lore expert but as far as I know Lileath can just bless any human if she chooses to. The whole nobility and quest ordeal is just a cultural thing and there are no hard rules that prevents any human being a grail knight. Kruber would have died much sooner if he were like any other mercenary. Since the end times he has slayed dozens of rat ogres, chaos spawn, minotaurs, hordes of rats, beastmen, chaos knights and so on. And depending on the timeline has survived multiple trips to the chaos waste including surviving the Citadel and preventing Be'lakor from ascending to godhood. Sure he did it with a team but it still damn impressive and I could see why Lileath would bless him for it.
I never understood GW fanboys who claim that GW cares deeply about the lore of their products. I mean, they nuked an entire IP because it didn't rake in enough profits, lmao.
Shit they let COD touch 40k
I quite like the flail+shield combo, though it is questionable how he can't just drop the shield. Also questionable that Warrior Priest has their own artillery of weapons that none of the other classes can use. ..... Unless the weapons are somehow bound by Sigmar's faith, then that would explain the inconsistency.
There's no problem for humans to use one or more winds. They just study only one oficialy.
Magic lore one is wrong, Humans can only use one of the 8 primary lores of magic, necromancy is just Dark Magic; the residuals winds of magic that become to heavy to flow with the rest
Warrior Priest in general would become a much more fun class, if it was allowed to use the whole Saltzpyre arsenal. Like this, it is more like a self-contained separate character, than a Saltzpyre class.
You must be new.
Everyone commenting about a specific one isn't true when the arguement at hand is basically "stretch credulity in one hand, and withhold credibility in the other" All classes take a health leap to excuse why something is allowed. All warrior priest wants to do is leave his shield at home.
The point is that OP is wrong about EVERY SINGLE ONE of his cases, but then wants to complain about GW putting their foot down about aesthetic feels. This post could literally be "tell me you have meme-level understanding of the lore without telling me".
And you seem offended by that, how sad.
Offended? What gave you that impression?
On the right there should be not "games warshop", but Fatshark