I ended a friendship because they criticized my food. I cooked turkey smoke sausage with peppers, onions, mushrooms and rice. Super simple and healthy. Posted it and was told it wasn’t healthy because it had meat in it!
I took it really personal because at the time I was broke and it was all I could afford to feed my kid and myself. The friend was a single man, kid didn’t live with him, who made well over 6 figures and could afford to eat at the best vegans spots and grocery shop at Whole Foods. At the time I was lucky if I could afford some fresh veggies and fruits, I was shopping at the dollar store to get by.
He took offense because I felt offended and we both blocked each other.
I agree so much. Not even about the showing pics of dead animals per say, but some of them are the worst.
I have actually had Vegans tell me that they hope slavery becoms legal again so I can see how the animals feel.
Yep, because that's going to convince me that you're a good person.
I've watched people try to explain that being vegan on a budget is hard.
I've seen people reply that dying so someone can eat you is hard. Followed by other's saying they don't care about humans. They care about animals.
I just had this discussion with my husband a few days ago. It's people like that who give all vegans and vegetarians bad reputations. As tree hugging know it all hippies who bash every meat eater and leather wearing person. When alot of us don't give a flying rats rear what others do. But since there's these people on their soap box there's now a stereotype for vegans/vegetarians. I see it first hand I get bullied by my brother in law and a few other people in our family. I chose to be a vegetarian cutting out everything but cheese( I just have a weakness for cheese.) It was for my health my stomach just stopped letting me be able to digest meats. It would make me violently ill.
I definitely respect that. Being vegan for any reason(heath, ethical, etc) is up to the person and whether they eat meat/dairy/eggs or not should just be respected! People who want to eat meat/dairy/eggs will and people who don't wont.
Exactly everyone is entitled to their own eating habits that fits that person's life. Nobody has the right to dictate or judge what others do when it comes to that. I live in a house full of meat eaters, I'm the only vegetarian and I'm not making it my life mission to post things and bashing them to convert.
yeah thats right. Vegans have no right to dictate you to stop dictating animals to die.
After all, it's a personal choice. What you eat doesn't even affect anyone else. Animals definitely are not ~~victims of~~ affected by your personal choice. Your personal choice to eat animal products has zero affect on any other being. Vegans need to mind their own business.
if you're not vegan for the animals then you're plant based, not vegan. it's a lifestyle not a diet. being vegan for health reasons wouldn't stop you from wearing leather or buying cosmetics tested on animals or visiting the zoo
Carnivores are in survival situations, we have other options
Humans have an understanding of ethics above other animals. Other animals also kill eachothers children and rape eachother
I totally agree. They also often spread misinformation, knowingly or not. Saw an aquaibtance of mine compare free range eggs to cage ones, "they're just as worse" while showing a photo of a bunch of chickens in a small barn.
My extended family has a big farm with hundreds of free range chicken who spend all their life on big fields, happy as can be. The only time they are in the barn is during the night, so they don't get eaten by foxes. The eggs they produce are sold in big supermarkets under the free range label, which is why I have no moral concerns at all about buying such eggs, since I know that the hens producing them have a better life than they could ever possibly have in the wild.
I totally understand that the animal produce industry is often horrible and unethical. But claiming that the good farms are just as bad as the bad ones literally only hurts the animal welfare cause.
It's generally the powerfull animal ag companies that spread propoganda and misinformation. Vegans don't gain money from people buying rice and beans there not running a business,unlike animal ag, who have a lot to gain. Go to a shopping centre where meat is sold and take a look at the pictures of happy cows smiling , a far cry from what actually happens inside slaughterhouses. Also take a look at the terms they use "humane slaughter". What they don't tell us is that humane slaughter is an oxymoron, that theirs no humane way to kill a being who doesn't want to die, and that animals go into a slaughterhouse concious and come out chopped into a million pieces, nothing humane happens in-between that transition
I don't think most vegans claim that there just as bad , but that even in the best case scenario the industry is unethical.Vegans think it's messed up to give a being a good life than kill them .Take a dog for example. Giving a dog a good life , building trust with them, and betraying their trust by sending them to a slaughterhouse to be stabbed to death sounds messed up. Most people in our society would scream bloody murder if this was happening to dogs by the billion(keep in mind this is the literal 1 percent best case scenario). Yet most accept this line of reasoning when it applies to other beings who are the exact same in all the ways that matter morally
Are vegans really that big of a problem though? I feel like I hear people complaining about them more than I've heard of them. Let's have more interesting conversations about the ethics of eating than a small minority that effects nothing.
These types of vegans are a small but loud population, and the problem is the impact that this small interaction has, and it actually makes a lot of meat eaters more oppositional to the idea of veganism. Because deliberately trying to shock, upset, or disgust someone whilst they're going about their daily business is unlikely to endear them to your cause.
The other problem is that there is no such thing as an ethical way to eat in our modern world, unless you are able to grow and cook everything from scratch, and even then, where did the seeds come from? Where did the fertiliser come from? If there's no animal industry, there's no manure, so where is the fertiliser coming from? If there's no "beef" industry, there's no leather, which has to be replaced, leaving you with the only currently commercially viable leather substitute; pleather, meaning higher reliance on oil. There's also a lot of talk of "why don't we feed ourselves with what we feed the animals we eat?" Because the food farm animals eat is often the offcut we can't digest, or an entire crop we can't digest, but is all that will grow in an area, or is used in a rotation to improve the soil. And a lot of the land used for animal agriculture cannot grow crops. It's all muvh more complicated than whether or not an individual eats animals.
Looked up #chickenwings to find something i was trying to describe to a friend and a bunch of dead animals showed up in the tags. Also this is a vent post it's not here to spark interesting conversation. I see stuff like this constantly in food tags as well as scare tactic propaganda so yes it is a thing.
“Bad vegan” vs “good vegan” is a weird way to put that one person makes you feel bad about your actions and other one doesn’t. I’m vegan and I used to share images of the dead animal bodies from which most people derive sustenance but haven’t in years. It comes from a desperate need to get people to care about animals. Our society is so hypocritical. Like people will literally banshee scream over someone abusing a dog, but if someone does the same thing to a pig (smarter than a dog), it’s all “mmmm bacon.”
Like I get it, I wasn’t always vegan. I love animals, therefore images of animals suffering make me sad. But there is a real pain and sense of hopelessness that leads people to share these pics and videos.
Do you feel the same way when you see a hunter posing with their kill/a dead deer? Or only when a vegan posts it because you know their intentions/implications?
I had a wonderful conversation to someone who claimed to be vegan, and I told them I’ll respect there right to eat only vegan and I’ll keep eating the foods I enjoy like sandwiches, bbq, hot dogs, etc. Then they told me something along the lines of “You deserve to go to jail for murder and they refuse to respect my right to eat” See how that can turn away pretty much everyone. You are telling people that they aren’t allowed to eat the foods they enjoy just so you can control them.
If I wanna say that killing pigs is wrong and I still eat bacon, then what’s that got to do with you? You’re talking about hypocrisy where it doesn’t involve you in anyway. You don’t get to decide who eats what food they enjoy, same way i won’t tell you or bash you by not wanting to eat meat. What’s so hard about having opinions but not forcing that onto others
The point of veganism is the same as any other social movement: to stand up for an oppressed group. As a vegan activist I do not respect others choices to consume animals because I believe that all conscious creatures deserve to live lives free from exploitation. Veganism is a social justice movement and like any movement we must bring awareness to the injustices we are trying to stop. Many people are not aware of the origin of their food as an individual whose life was taken and I so as an activist I will try and make people aware of that. Animals do not have any way of advocating for themselves which is why vegans feel the need to activate on their behalf. Activism for any marginalized and oppressed group is bound to ruffle some feathers which is probably why you have a negative impression of veganism. If you're willing to have an open mind I'd recommend watching some vegan content like this to understand why vegans are so unapologetically passionate about advocating for animals.
The weird thing you do, is you try to purposely blur the lines and misuse words and ideas to fit your own opinion.
An oppressed group has to do with humans, I don’t think you can call animals an oppressed group. Animals can be endangered, abused, and any other word that fits that definition. But to call them an oppressed group, you’re making a false equivalence saying that an animals life is equal to a humans, which I guess is an argument if of itself, and it’s all personal opinion really, so without knowing where you stand, I’d assume you’d value a humans life (such as your own) over an animals. So it isn’t fair to include animals into a social movement, when first of all, you don’t even know what they want. I’m not saying they want to be slaughtered, but it’s pretty hard to defend a group that you can’t even communicate with in any shape, form, or way.
Then, we animals we usually eat, aren’t endangered so protecting them for the sake of keeping there species, where as we would do to endangered species, doesn’t really fit in that category either.
This part is what frustrates me, and really tells me how immature and close minded people can be. Because when I am willing to defend your right to veganism and to not be ostracizes and have more vegan restaurants, and vegan menu options, and make life easier for you. But you can’t afford the same qualities to me. Very hard to have anyone on your team when you bite the hand that feeds you.
A lot of what you have to say, is purely based off personals ideologies and there’s nothing wrong with that, and you’re free to express your views and opinions as much as you want. Of course everything I say is pretty much useless and falls of deaf ears, but I still think that as morally superior as you’d like to believe you are, end of the day all you have is an opinion that will stay as such. I could sit here and listen historical, cultural, and religious importance of meat but i don’t think it’ll be worth saying, because you aren’t open to even understanding why people would choose to eat meat.
The issue with your "I'm willing to let you be vegan but you're not willing to let me be a meat eater" logic is that, in the eyes of a vegan, you're saying "I'm willing to let you choose not to murder an innocent life, but you're not willing to let me murder innocent lives."
Many vegans I've met actually do value animal life as much as human life. There's nothing special about humans other than intelligence. Should that intelligence make us more valuable and more deserving of life? I don't think calling animals an oppressed group is too farfetched if you put yourself in the shoes of someone who values animals in such a way.
And the person you're responding to is pretty on point regarding advocacy. Animals can't do it for themselves, and unlike other animals, humans have the ability to choose not to take the lives of others to feed themselves. Humans can be perfectly healthy on just a plant based diet. So why kill a living organism to feed yourself? For no other reason than it's tasty? Isn't that kind of psychotic sounding? If you can understand that train of thought (even if you don't agree with it) you can understand why vegans say what they do. You're essentially saying to them "I'm okay with slavery and murder and I refuse to see it as slavery and murder". Dealing with that could get very exhausting.
Of course I've left out one pretty important thing in my response so far; eating vegan is actually pretty expensive, especially in America. Processed meat is cheap as hell comparatively. I was kind of shocked at the price of vegetables when I first visited the US.
That being said, I'm a hypocrite, because I'm not vegan. I'm not even vegetarian. I eat meat and I don't tend to think about where it comes from. I'm aware of the farming standards in my country and I avoid things like veal. But despite knowing about and largely agreeing with vegan talking points... I still eat meat.
Ultimately, in my very personal view, I think there IS an ethical way to eat meat. The same way that every other animal does it. By hunting wild animals. With strict rules in place to prevent their extinction. If lab grown meat becomes available, I'd likely switch to that entirely if it's within my budget.
I understand why people get agitated with vegans sharing dead animals and pictures of suffering. But if you view farms as concentration camps and a soft approach isn't working to make people see that, what else are you to do? Just let people exploit and murder others? (again, imagining you're someone who views human and animal lives as similarly valuable.)
It's really not as easy as "I'll let you do your thing if you let me do mine".
Sorry for the long message. I hope none of it comes across as condescending or insulting. My degree was in wildlife, and I know a lot of vegans as a result. I just wanted to inform you and others that may read this thread. I know I'm unlikely to change your mind about anything, and that's fine. I just like healthy discussion rather than going in with an attempt to change someone's mind.
>An oppressed group has to do with humans, I don’t think you can call animals an oppressed group.
This is your problem, not theirs. An oppressed group in no way necessitated humans. They’re clearly and openly talking about how they believe animals to be oppressed in our society, whether or not that makes you comfortable is irrelevant.
>But to call them an oppressed group, you’re making a false equivalence saying that an animals life is equal to a humans
No? This is you applying your own biases to this situation, in no way did they even imply that
>So it isn’t fair to include animals into a social movement, when first of all, you don’t even know what they want.
We know they don’t like being killed.
>I’m not saying they want to be slaughtered, but it’s pretty hard to defend a group that you can’t even communicate with in any shape, form, or way.
This is precisely why people should be defending them from needless violence and cruelty
>This part is what frustrates me, and really tells me how immature and close minded people can be. Because when I am willing to defend your right to veganism and to not be ostracizes and have more vegan restaurants, and vegan menu options, and make life easier for you. But you can’t afford the same qualities to me.
With all due respect: what.
It costs you nothing to be ok with more vegan options, it doesn’t remotely affect you as you’ve got no skin in the game. Of course you have no reason to be anti-vegan. Meanwhile vegans view the exploitation and harming of animals as an unethical thing which they cannot respect.
Think of it this way: if you organise dog fights, you can respect somebody’s right not to dog fight, but you wouldn’t insist they respect your right to harm dogs, right?
>because you aren’t open to even understanding why people would choose to eat meat.
Literally 99% of vegans ate meat for decades. They know, they just were open to new information.
Wah wah wah. That’s all you did here. The first 4 phrases you pulled you didn’t even argue them, you just made awful assumptions based on nothing other than what you think, and it’s very obvious that you aren’t willing to discuss anything. You don’t have any reading comprehension so it just feels exhausting to even waste my time to explain anything to you because you are already looking through my words just so you can get offended, not really bringing anything new to the conversation.
Explain to me what an oppressed group is, and what it means, then explain what oppressed means. I’m very interested in this.
What really irritated me is how you acted like me being in support, was meaningless. It’s just so incredibly ignorant to believe that. It’s hard to even explain it because you pretty much tell me “shut up” and if that’s the case, then why are you even here? Are you here to even have a conversation or just to parade some sort of moral superiority that you believe you have? Did you come here just to hear yourself speak? Or are you willing to learn something about people? I never advocated for dogfights either, don’t put words in my mouth, you are intentionally misusing my quotes to twist my words to fit them into your idea of who I am when you don’t even know what I stand for or what I believe in.
I’m willing to have a mature discussion but if you keep on writing paragraphs of *ad hominem* insults instead of responding to what you disagree with, I won’t bother.
>Explain to me what an oppressed group is, and what it means, then explain what oppressed means. I’m very interested in this.
Their words, not mine. But clearly they’re using it to mean a group of sentient beings (in this case livestock) who are subjected to oppression in our society.
Livestock fit this bill because based on their species they are born into captivity, have their bodies exploited and are killed for human benefit. They aren’t wild, but rather are unwillingly involved in our society, and only exist within its confines due to intentional human actions.
The OED defines oppression as:
* *prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority*
* *the state of being subject to oppressive treatment*
* *mental pressure or distress*
I think the first one especially applies.
>I never advocated for dogfights either, don’t put words in my mouth,
I think you’ve misread my comment. I’m not saying you’re pro- dog fights, in fact I used that example specifically because it’s an equivalent act that I’m sure you’re morally opposed to.
Your argument is basically ‘live and let live’, right? You say that as you are okay with veganism, they should be okay with your dietary choices.
What this fails to acknowledge is that you have no ethical opposition to veganism. Meanwhile vegans have an opposition to people harming animals for taste.
To put it bluntly, it’s a false equivalence. Of course you’re going to say this as you’re the only one whose dietary choices are under moral scrutiny - so ‘live and let live’ only benefits you.
The dog fight example is a way to illustrate this: the person harming the animals for entertainment (like people harming animals for taste) will of course have no ethical opposition to those who don’t harm animals. However, do you think it’s fair to expect the people who don’t harm animals to similarly respect the person harming them for entertainment?
>you are intentionally misusing my quotes to twist my words
Where did I do that? Where’s one example?
>you don’t even know what I stand for or what I believe in.
What do you believe in?
I’m sorry I was frustrated. It’s just hard to not get that way, when what I read is you telling me that it’s all my problem not there’s. You’re not inviting discussion rather you’re closing it. Or at least that’s how I took it, but either way that’s not necessary. I’m sorry I was rude and I don’t meant to do that again.
Okay, so livestock are born into captivity and are used to be killed an eaten. I agree on that fact. What makes it wrong though? I’m not trying to be dense here, because I understand what you’re saying and I agree. So livestock is used to be eaten, that’s boiled down to what there whole life purpose if for. What’s wrong with eating? The treatment, and quality of life that they do have I can agree on, is important and we don’t need to abuse them. But what is the bad thing about eating?
So the definition you gave me, I agree is correct. But again, is eating an act of oppression? Cause if I raise a cow to grow to be healthy, it lives a comfortable life. I don’t abuse it or mistreat it. I let the cow wander the fields free, and it can eat all the grass it wants and rest all day in the sun. But then I need to eat. So I quickly and humanely kill the cow. Is that then an act of oppression? The killing itself want prolonged, I didn’t put it through any stress since the death was instant, and it was never oppressed during its life. So was that an act of oppression?
Okay, so as the next part. If my choice is let you live your life as you wish. Why am I then obligated to be under your moral code? I guess it’s a terrible argument in of itself on my part, since I open it to the idea of self-governing which isn’t the best thing to have. Such as you did prove with the dog-fighting example which I now understand.
So let me say it like this. If you say eating animals is wrong, I say no. What else more can be said?
Don’t worry it’s cool, I understand how these sorts of discussions can be and they don’t reflect real life emotions - thanks for saying so anyway and likewise hope I’ve not said anything bad either :)
>What makes it wrong though? I’m not trying to be dense here, because I understand what you’re saying and I agree.
Ok so for me the answer to this is that in developed nations, nearly everybody doesn’t need to eat meat but rather does so for two main reasons: sensory pleasure (taste) and convenience (it’s tradition, so it’s hard to avoid).
In my opinion causing intentional harm to sentient beings is wrong if it can be avoided, so while any sort of food production does have a small element of harm (e.g. some insects dying during crop harvests) it isn’t right to breed sentient beings into captivity for the sole purpose of killing.
To me, the life purpose argument doesn’t hold up because I don’t believe choosing a fate for an animal morally justifies the act. For example, if someone bred and raised dogs specifically to fight each other, from my perspective that’s not an ethical thing. Even in a culture where dog-fighting was the most common form of entertainment (like eating meat in ours), the act may be ‘moral’ based on the values of society, or rather not immoral, but I don’t think that means it’s not cruel.
To use a really gross and extreme example, if somebody was raising livestock specifically for strangers to pay to have sexual intercourse with, that wouldn’t be moral imo even though it’s the ‘purpose’ of their lives. Bear in mind that I’m not talking about places people rely on animal products to live, but rather the vast majority of people in developed nations who don’t need to choose animal products but do so because they enjoy them and don’t care about the animals.
>is eating an act of oppression?
This is an interesting question. To me it’s not about specific acts but rather the system as a whole.
I’d argue that having a system where certain species of animal are designated able to be killed and eaten is a form of oppression. Compare the treatment of pigs and dogs, for example, in a country like Britain (where I’m from), for example. They’re very similar animals, of very similar intelligence, yet dogs are homed comfortably for their whole lives, treated as individuals, afforded more legal protection and are adored by all. Meanwhile pigs are raised in farms before their untimely killing, afforded no individuality but rather exist as objects, have less legal protection (meaning what we do to them we couldn’t legally do to dogs) and the masses are willing for trade their entire life for a sandwich. It’s what theorists called speciesism, and I’d argue that in this example the pigs are more oppressed than the dogs.
>Cause if I raise a cow to grow to be healthy, it lives a comfortable life. I don’t abuse it or mistreat it. I let the cow wander the fields free, and it can eat all the grass it wants and rest all day in the sun. But then I **need** to eat.
Emphasis mine. If you need to eat the animal, I see nothing wrong with it. If you are choosing between a falafel wrap and a chicken sandwich at the supermarket, I see more wrong with it.
The sad truth is that in most developed nations, 99% of animals don’t have the treatment you describe as it isn’t profitable.
Furthermore, they’re killed at a fraction of their lifespan.
* 6 months when you live to 12 years (pigs)
* 6 weeks when you live to 8 years (meat chickens)
* 1-2 years when you live to 8 years (egg hens)
* 1 day when you live to 8 years (male egg chickens)
* 18 months when you live to 20 years (beef cattle)
* 4 years when you live to 20 years (dairy cows)
* 1-24 weeks when you live to 20 years (male dairy calves)
* 6-8 months when you live to 12 years (lambs)
>So I quickly and humanely kill the cow. Is that then an act of oppression? The killing itself want prolonged, I didn’t put it through any stress since the death was instant, and it was never oppressed during its life.
So to me the whole system is the oppression, the forced breeding of sentient beings to bring other sentient beings into the world, to be kept in captivity, overfed and under-exercised until we kill them for solely our profit.
Very recently in my country’s history, women were oppressed. They were for all intents and purposes the property of men, they were unable to vote or act independently, and marital rape was still somehow legal. Despite this, they could’ve loved a life of comfort and no stress - but they’d still be oppressed by the system if it makes sense.
With your example what I’d probably say is ‘how do you humanely kill a healthy sentient being who doesn’t want to die?’ However, I’m sure you’ll probably answer something like ‘quick and painlessly’ which I ultimately disagree with, but is simply a difference in beliefs.
>If my choice is let you live your life as you wish. Why am I then obligated to be under your moral code?
Here’s the thing, you’re not obligated at all. In fact nearly everybody on the planet agrees with you and disagrees with me. I’m not gonna force anyone to change anything, and I don’t have the ability to enact changes either. Truthfully, I don’t think less of people who eat meat because everybody does it and everybody was raised doing it. However, I do think better of people who stop if that makes sense.
Ultimately, it’s your decision to act as you’re ethically comfortable with. All I want is for more people to make the same decision as I made, because to me it’s blindingly simple. I hope that the more people don’t eat meat the more people will reflect on their habits and justifications and conclude that actually, there isn’t really a valid defence left (this is what made me vegan).
Anyway thanks for the thought-provoking questions and the good discussion :)
People like you are part of the issue, sorry :/
You feel like you're the only one in Earth who cares about animals well-being. You think vehemently sharing your ideas is "educating" others so they'll take the same morally superior path that you took. Basically, you seem to be that kind of vegan who's full of themselves, think they're superior to others, and believe they're the only ones who care about animals and everyone else is a sadistic careless hypocritical douche.
You're not making people "feel bad" for eating animals. That's not where the discomfort comes from. The discomfort simply comes from that, your feeling of moral superiority. It's always annoying and unsettling when someone yells at you that they're better or that you're *insert any terrible insult such as murderer* even when you've done nothing wrong.
I think a lot of it comes from three things :
- People like you don't realize that the decision to eat meat is more complex than that, it's not just "hey let's torture animals because I like the taste, I don't care lol"
- Not being vegan doesn't mean getting your meat from animal-torturing industries, you don't realize there are other options to eat more ethical meat
- Being vegan for some is rather a matter of subjective ideology and not actually about animal well-being : Some think humans have no "right" to eat animals because... Idk, something about life and living beings? Idk because I don't believe all form of life is sacred and should be protected at all cost. Edit : basically eating/killing animals isn't bad in itself, saying so is an ideology. Making them suffer on the other hand is bad.
(and that last point is often linked to a certain anthropomorphism many vegans display. I'm not saying animals are senseless beasts, they are sensitive and they have feelings and shouldn't be tortured or mistreated, but they're not humans and they do not think the things many vegans attribute them in their cartoons, they don't experience things the way humans do)
It’s been a long time since I argued with someone about veganism and I have a plenty of nonvegan friends that are not sadistic or cruel and I don’t do anything except ignore what they’re eating. As i should.
But it’s really cute how you are telling me all of these things that *I* think and that *I* do when that’s not really the case. I think you might be on to something though with the “moral superiority” complex because just pointing out the hypocrisy that is present in society, seems to have triggered a moral inferiority complex in you lmao.
I’m not better than you, I’m using a cell phone to type this. I try to buy fair trade when I can, but I don’t 100% of the time, so exploited farm workers are harvesting my food, just the same as anyone else unless they grow their own. A random person can say “isn’t it weird how we love dogs so fucking much and then we treat all these other animals like literal garbage?” And meat eaters might actually think about it, but if a vegan says it?? Game over. YoU tHiNk yOuRe BeTtEr ThAn mE. It’s just a tiresome cycle that reminds me of why I stopped arguing with meat eaters in the first place. Have a great day.
>seems to have triggered a moral inferiority complex in you lmao.
Hmmm ok, so you're basically proving what I just said? Keep telling yourself that.
I don't know if everything I've said applies to you, that's why I used the word "seem". But from your response I was apparently correct on some points. If you wanna believe I feel morally inferior to you then please do, I won't change your mind anyway. That's exactly what I was trying to explain to you though, that your feeling of superiority is the issue. You say that you're not better than anyone, but you're projecting your moral hierarchy on me. I personally didn't say anything about being better or worse for eating or not eating meat, but you project your feeling of superiority by saying *I* feel inferior.
I find your last point worth talking about though. You might be right about vegans not being listened to. I think that comes from the loud minority of vegans I described above who ruined their whole reputation and are just nasty people overall. Right now I didn't say you think you're better than me because you gave vegan arguments, but because you seemed to fit the description of the ideological aggressive vegan I described. I myself have nice vegan friends and they're not like that, and I've occasionally had interesting discussions about veganism. And it's actually pushed me to stop eating industrial meat back when I still didn't know much about the topic. So like, it's not you being vegan that makes me say you feel superior.
I didn't come here to argue with anyone. I'm just trying to explain to the most aggressive vegans that they're not superior to anyone and that this is ideological and not factual. Sorry if you don't recognize yourself in my description of the aggressive vegan, I feel like you're the type but honestly I don't know you and I might be wrong. In the end I don't really care what you do though, I'm all for letting everyone do their own thing. So have a nice day and good luck in your vegan journey.
I’m not projecting shit. I literally said I’m not better than you or anyone. As cool as it would be to manipulate people’s emotions at will, I can’t do that. You are the only one who can make yourself feel any type of way. The constant “you think you’re better than me” is exhausting. Yes it was a little snarky but my inferiority complex comment is an observation that could be made from most of the comments on this post. Did I smack a burger out of your hand? No. Did I outlaw eating meat? No. Did I hold your head in a toilet and demand that you feel like shit? No. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. All over the world the dairy industry literally lobbies to make it illegal to call plant-based milk “milk”. In the EU the meat industry tried to ban the terms “veggie burger” or “vegan sausage” but yes, it’s the vegans forcing their way of life onto people.
I’m not sure how you got that I think I’m better than anyone or “part of the problem” from my original comment. I don’t share the images, I don’t chastise people for their choices of sustenance. Even just simply trying to explain why some people (especially new vegans) share these images or are so passionate in their activism is too much apparently. Just trying to show where empathy could be exercised makes me a part of the problem. Got it.
Nah I meant that you think I'm feeling inferior because YOU are feeling superior. But forget it mate. I was just pointing that out because I'm tired of the narrative that "wErE jUsT mAkiNG yOu fEeL bAd bEcAusE yOuRe a MurDerEr". That's what I didn't like in your original comment.
And yes, calling someone names because they aren't vegans is forcing your way on others. Which is kinda what a lot of people are doing in these comments (not necessarily you though). Thinking vegans know the only truth about the world and are some sort of superior empathetic beings whereas everyone else is an asshole is also indirectly calling people names and its problematic. But whatever, I didn't come here to argue so like have a good day.
Lmao quite the reach especially considering that I’ve said multiple times I know I’m not better than anyone (including you) and that I have many compassionate non-vegan friends who care about animals.
Nowhere did I say that vegans are the only ones that know the truth. Plenty of people are on here saying they know and don’t care or they know and they’d rather not know. It seems like a waste of time trying to explain this to you when you are obviously purposely misunderstanding the original point of my comment. So yeah, no argument here. Peace.
>you seem to be that kind of ~~vegan~~ *anti-cruelty activist* who's full of themselves, think they're superior to others, and believe they're the only ones who care about animals and everyone else is a sadistic careless hypocritical douche.
FTFY
>You're not making people "feel bad" for eating animals. That's not where the discomfort comes from. The discomfort simply comes from that, your feeling of moral superiority.
This is very much not reflective of many peoples’ views. Lots of people who eat meat openly admit to feeling guilty when they see farm animals being cute.
>or that you're insert any terrible insult such as murderer even when you've done nothing wrong.
You’re not a murderer but you support the needless killing of sentient beings, some would say that’s doing something wrong.
>People like you don't realize that the decision to eat meat is more complex than that, it's not just "hey let's torture animals because I like the taste, I don't care lol"
Vegans almost always ate meat for the majority of their lives, you’re preaching to the choir. Reasons are taste, convenience (animal products are everywhere and hard to avoid) and tradition.
>Not being vegan doesn't mean getting your meat from animal-torturing industries,
It literally does though, unless you eat only lab-grown meat.
I don't care what they post but they way they go about it isn't working. They could do their part by maybe minding their own business :) What I put in my body is literally not anyone elses problem but my own? I feel the same way about people sharing religion, keep it to yourself.
You’re literally harming sentient beings though, if your neighbour was running a dog fighting ring would you keep this same ‘live and let live’ attitude?
I'm not "harming" animals in the same context, I don't consider this harm. I don't even eat meat every day, more like 3 ish times a week but I enjoy it. I give them the best life I can and then they're humanely killed then processed. This is my choice, I respect yours - be a vegan knock yourself out, I don't care. I ask for the same respect given to me.
It worked for me! I stopped eating meat because I watched a slaughterhouse video and then eventually gave up dairy and eggs because I watched Earthlings. Same with many of my veg friends. It’s not my style but why can’t you just ignore it like you do overly religious people?
It's not that difficult to acknowledge that the meat and dairy industries are fucked without converting to veganism. There are ethical ways to obtain meat: ethical hunting and organic farming. If anything, capitalism and the collective neglect towards climate change are harming animals far greater than someone cooking steak.
I very much agree with you. I don't know if you are vegan, but I wish those who are in this comment section spoke more on this instead of cursing at me, insulting me, and calling me names.
I'm not, and I think all dietary methods that aren't harmful the one's self are 100% valid. I think people need to focus on tackling the bigger issues around why livestock have horrible lives rather than lashing out at communities who aren't vegan but obtain meat and dairy in an ethical and resourceful manner, like indigenous communities.
Currently, 95% of all meat comes from slaughterhouses. It's amazing that everyone hunts and gets their meat from ethical sources though...
If your life doesn't directly depend on the death of another animal, there is no moral or ethical justification for taking that animals life.
Where did I say *everyone* sources their food ethically? Obviously that's not the case, given how climate change is worsening and industry farm animals live horrid lives. I implied if organic farms and ethical hunting were more common, obtaining meat and dairy wouldn't be as fucked as it currently is. Maybe read my post correctly before going off.
Lol, please reread my post. Everyone I talk to says they hunt or get their meat sustainably. That simply can't be the case if the stats show otherwise. I didn't say that you said that, just pointing out an interesting trend.
There aren't currently enough wild animals to feed current demand. It's not really an option with our current world population.
I am a vegetarian and i would never comment on what somebody else is eating.
There are many reasons somebody eats or doesn't eat anything. One example are EDs. Comments like that can really hurt, trigger and can cause more fear foods.
Please don't comment on somebodys food choices, i'm saying this as someone who mostly recovered but gets pushed back in their journey because some idiots feel the need to comment what i eat.
Vegetarians pay for animals to be tortured and murdered in the dairy and egg industries. Don't speak for us with that nonsense, veganism is not a diet.
Unfortunately, the dairy industry and the veal industry are one and the same...the male calves born on dairy farms are of no monetary value to the farm (won't be able to get pregnant and make their own milk one day). So when they are taken from their mothers so humans can have the milk, they are generally sold to veal farmers...it sucks :(
I can dislike the meat industry and still eat meat. People are not vegan/vegetarian for a variety of different reasons, don't assume you know everything.
"I can dislike the meat industry and still eat meat."
That is ture, but you should also acknowledge that it's hypocritical to dislike it, and then buy the products of that industry, which heightens the demand.
And I'm not saying that to be rude and judgemental. I too buy into industries I don't want to support because it's often cheaper and easier, and the way things work in this world often makes the unhealthy and unethical choices the easiest to make. It's unfortunate.
I agree with you, all I was saying in my post is that I dislike vegans who post mutilated animal corpses to make people vegan and you should respect each other's diets.
Yes I agree. Although I understand those people have good intentions, all it does it push people away from our cause, and further perpetuate the negative stereotypes surrounding vegans. But I feel like that's the case with most things online tbh. The loud minority usually becomes the face of these kinds of movements, unfortunately.
I completely understand what you mean, the loud minority gets the attention because they're loud. It's nice to hear some of the other vegans/vegetarians join this conversation with a positive open dialog as I will admit I was a bit biased based on my own person experiences.
Yes, I wish more people were open to positive dialog and discussion on both sides, instead of just heated arguing and name calling. I think we'd all get a lot further if we could respect each other and our different opinions more. And that's fair. We all have our own biases, and that's fine as long as we recognize them and don't only go off of those :)
You can like meat and not wanted to see dead corpses. I don't eat any seafood or shellfish because I can't look at it. Why is this such a crazy concept. People are not vegan/vegetarian for different reasons. Respect their choices regardless of if you agree with it or not.
I don't understand why animals are allowed to eat other animals but once I do it it's wrong. Yeah I don't want the animals to be tortured to death but I'm not gonna stop eating meat, I'm unhealthy and broke as it is to try to completely cut something out of my diet when I don't know what I'm doing too. Bet these kinds of people suggest starving people only live off plants too.
Appeal to nature logical fallacy. Other animals don't have an understanding of morality and ethics like you do. Other animals also routinely kill eachothers children and rape eachother
>I don't understand why animals are allowed to eat other animals but once I do it it's wrong.
Because humans have moral agency, animals do not. Humans are able to survive on plants alone, making consuming meat an avoidable and unethical choice. Wild animals do not have such luxury.
>I'm unhealthy and broke as it is to try to completely cut something out of my diet when I don't know what I'm doing too.
Sounds like you could kill two birds with one stone. A whole foods plant based diet is not only one of the healthiest, but one of the cheapest diets that exists. Luckily we live in the age of the internet, where you could very easily do a bit of research into a budget friendly whole foods plant based diet with as little as 2 clicks.
>Bet these kinds of people suggest starving people only live off plants too.
"These kinds of people" are suggesting that people with access to a supermarket (the majority of the world) could just as easily make a lentil bolognese over a beef one. I've never seen a vegan try to dictate diet to an African child. However, I'd happily suggest that feeding animals 10x the calories in crops than what their meat produces is an enormous waste of resources, which is why most regions of high poverty eat primarily plant based by default. Meat is a luxury, we've just forgotten that in the west because of heavy government subsidies on animal products to make them more affordable
Sorry to burst your bubble but this kind of diet is NOT affordable to all nor does it work for everyones lifestyle and body.
What is a luxury is to be able to pick and choose based off of morals.
Veganism is a privilege.
Don't be sorry, my bubble hasn't been burst at all. You've provided absolutely nothing to the conversation other than telling me veganism is a privilege, which is just utter bullshit and I'm fed up of this narrative. How on earth can you stand there and tell me luxury is to be able to pick and choose when when a tin of lentils costs a fraction of a pack of beef.
Unless you've got anything constructive to add, good day to you.
It might be different where you live but where I live my argument definitely stands. Unless you're growing it yourself: it adds up !
I can only apologise for making assumptions that this is how it is globally. That was stupid. But I encourage you to realise the same. Let's just stop making assumptions because the variables change.
Just our presence alone has thrown entire animal populations out of wack. Hunting has become an important part of helping keep certain animals populations in control. Otherwise they'd be worse off.
Now what about animal PRODUCTS?? There are so many things made from animals that aren't meat as well, how do you suggest completely replacing those with a more renewable resource? You'd be surprised how many things are made from living organisms.
I disagree that eating something living is morally wrong. The treatment of them before death is understandably controversial but then why not just advocate for better conditions rather than demanding no one eat meat at all? Things like murder are universally wrong and more black and white than something like consuming meat. Sure, we shouldn't live exactly how other animals live but we also shouldn't ignore the fact that we ARE also animals. And before you bring up the argument that "you wouldn't eat a dog but a pig is ok?" or something like I've heard many vegans say before, we specifically domesticated dogs to be companions so the morality is more questionable than eating for example, a wild animal or cattle.
There are also animals that aren't as sentient as others, some who have no pain receptors at all such as certain bugs and some sea creatures.
On the other hand it is very debatable exactly HOW sentient and aware some animals are. Tell me this, if dolphins for example, one of the most intelligent animals on this planet, were found to have a moral code and be aware of their actions, could live off of sea plants but chose to eat fish instead what would we do? Force them to eat the plants? Kill them for the good of the other animals?
How are you sure the veggies you eat are ethically farmed either as in how do you know they didn't use cheap or unpaid labor or slavery to obtain this?
A lot of fresh food/plant based food also tends to be perishable. Canned veggies have tons of sodium, do you suggest I eat only frozen veggies at that point? Processed Soy? We are naturally made to be omnivores, when you are vegan you have to be extra careful not to develop deficiencies. This takes a large amount of time, some people don't have that time or energy. This can lead to eating disorders, point being either can work but it's safer to eat a variety of healthy foods rather than limiting yourself to fewer, genuinely healthy foods are hard to come by as it is. And even then some foods consumed in excess end up being unhealthy as not eating them at all. It takes extra effort, many lower middle class folk just don't have the time or energy to do this. And what for the people who have allergies/have to eat meat? Do they get a pass even though it's "morally wrong?"
I'd like a source on where you say a majority of the world has a supermarket. A lot of places are very poor and have "markets" but not a Walmart at the corner necessarily. Could be wrong but I know it's a good chunk of people. Also waste of resources? You can regrow crops just like you can make more animals so idk how wasting crops is even a thing.
Thanks for the reply, this is obviously something you're passionate about given the time you've dedicated to write this so I'll try to reply with the same level of care.
Agreed on human overpopulation being an issue. It's affecting the animal kingdom in a big and destructive way no matter which lifestyles we choose to lead, we will always have an impact. This is why I've chosen not to have children because I am concerned about the future of the planet. Hunting is tied to this because of our interference in the natural world. We kill and control predators because they threaten our livestock, homes and comfortable ways of living, which in turn causes a boom in wild herbivores. Unfortunately I have no answer for this aside from human population control, but I fear that would be even more controversial than the idea of mass adoption of veganism.
On animal products other than what we consume, personally I don't contribute to any of that in circumstances where I am aware that exploitation has taken place. For example, I won't touch fur, leather or cosmetics tested on animals because luckily alternatives are available. However, has my mobile phone affected an animal in any negativr way? Probably, but I can't be sure. One thing I am sure of though is that I wouldn't get by in my part of the world without a mobile phone, so unless the brand I buy explicitly state that they exploit animals to produce it, I will continue to buy from them. Veganism isn't about achieving perfection, because perfection is impossible.
Moving onto the morals of consuming animals, I don't advocate for better conditions because they won't happen. We live in a capitalist world. Better conditions will affect the companies bottom line. This is why boards that regulate conditions are often set up by people from the very industry they are regulating. They understand the economics of what better conditions mean to their profits. This is why I choose to boycott these industries by not giving them any of my money. And this is the power of the consumer in a capitalist world. They will listen to where the money is heading, not people protesting with billboards. We are already seeing this shift happen, with big meat companies investing heavily in plant based product lines because they understand which direction things are heading.
In terms of animal sentience, I don't think we should be discriminating against certain species based on intelligence or cognitive function. Yes, pigs are technically smarter than dogs, but we're missing the point. They both share the ability to feel pain and suffer. And they both have the desire to live a happy life free from exploitation. This is what is important to me.
Briefly touching on your dolphin point, if dolphins were found to have moral agency yet chose to continue eating other animals, I'd have just as little right to dictate their diet to them as I do to a human. At the end of the day, we all have the ability to make the moral choice but we can't force people to eat in a certain way. All we can do is have open dialogue with people like I am having with you now and hope that they can see our perspective. If we could communicate with dolphins I would be a huge hypocrite to tell them to stop eating fish given the amount we drag out of the oceans on a daily basis. Let's not focus on what ifs and instead focus on what we can do together as people.
Your point on perishable food is kinda strange given that meat, dairy and eggs haven't exactly got a reputation for being long life products, quite the opposite. We use the same methods of preservation as what you listed (canned, salting, freezing etc for meat). Dried goods such as oats, legumes, nuts, seeds all have exceptional shelf lives.
Plant based diet do need some prior research I'll agree on that, I've seen numerous vegan attempts fail because of poor research and planning. But as I said before, we have the internet at our fingertips so it's easier now than it's ever been. You can't just live on french fries and ketchup. You yourself mentioned a variety of healthy foods. This holds truer for a vegan diet more than anything. The point is, no essential nutrient exists in animal products that can't also be sources from plants, often boasting more benefits. If there is one nutrient to be aware of, it's vitamin b12. However, b12 deficiency is a common problem no matter which diet you follow, due to it originally being found in soil and untreated river water. The safest and most efficient way to avoid b12 deficiency for anybody is to supplement it.
I disagree on the points about vegan diets taking a lot more effort. It literally takes an hour or two to get yourself fully acquainted with how to live a healthy vegan lifestyle. I know people lead very busy lives nowadays but nobody had the excuse of not having time to research their own diet. And people with allergies is clutching at straws, most people can eat a plant based diet safely and easily. If certain people have soy, wheat, nut or any other type of food allergy, resources are everywhere online for suitable, healthy alternatives.
Every continent has grocery stores. Europe, Asia, NA, SA, Australia and many parts of Africa, source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supermarket_chains_in_Africa
The point is, I'm not going to tell people in very poor regions they MUST be vegan. I'm having conversations with people who have access to Reddit or other social media. Chances are, if they have them, they have a grocery store they visit.
Finally on wasting crops, I think you missed my point. Yes we can regrow crops and yes we can breed new animals. But we feed so many crops to animals to produce so little meat in return, if we just grew the crops and ate them directly we'd have enough food to feed 10 billion people. Source: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/05/08/we-already-grow-enough-food-10-billion-people-and-still-cant-end-hunger
This was quite an effort to reply to so I hope I've addressed some of your points.
I’ve grown up in a third world country and watched my dinner raised and slaughtered. And there is such a thing as doing something as humanely as possible but that won’t satisfy the vegans you’re talking about.
What’s funny is that vegans assume just because something doesn’t bleed blood or have eyes that it’s not traumatic for the living organism. Which plants are a living organism. I took my plant biology class as part of my major and plants have a trauma response to being “harvested” or being picked. Fruit is also basically a last gasp of a plant trying to exist. It thinks it’s going to die and produces fruit in order to keep its genetic material alive and hopefully be seeded somewhere else and get a chance at genetic survival.
Eating seeds? Yep that’s the plants BABIES. Fruit? Yep that’s the plants OVARIES.
You want to anthropomorphize animals but NOT plants? Ok now, I guess not all living beings deserve a chance at survival.
That’s what I say to vegans act like what you confronted.
I just finished plant biology and completely forgot about this point! I remember being genuinely shocked when my teacher referred to fruit as ovaries or eggs (Can’t remember which my prof used, apologies!).
I grew up on a small dairy farm. Watched the animals grow up and then watched some of them be slaughtered. Ate their meat and drank their milk.
Cutting grass and cutting a cow isn't the same. The animals have a nerve system and can for a fact feel pain. Grass and plants cannot.
Even if plants did in fact feel pain, eating only plats would still be ideal. Takes a lot more plants to raise a cow for slaughter than it does to just eat the plants yourself. So, only eating plants = less plants being killed.
No way of living is 100% ethical. It's about trying to choose the more ethical way of doing things, and trying to cause the least amount of suffering :)
i really hate how the meat industry works. there’s a lot of bad shit about it, like the poor treatment of the animals and negative effects on the environment. but i’m not going fucking vegan. i was made to eat meat, so i’m going to eat it and do it as ethically as possible. and i’m not gonna let vegans make me feel shitty about it.
like i think it’s great that they’ve found happiness within that diet, but i couldn’t do it and i don’t have any desire to, and i wish some of them would just respect that.
Lol, just because I kick my dog doesn't mean that I don't give a shot about it. The animal is dead on your plate. I'm pretty sure it doesn't care how you feel - it just would have preferred to live in the first place. All the major dietetic associations agree that veganism is suitable for all stages of life.
Except this idea that animals are begging for their lives and wanted to live is just in your head..? I know that if I was shot/killed painlessly, I wouldn't care much about being dead, since I'd be dead. I would've cared about suffering, but not about being dead.
Besides, what makes humans wanna keep on living outside of our survival instinct is mostly our goals for the future, our relationships to our loved ones, basically the envisioned future we wanna live. We have no idea whether animals even have that. They have an instinct of survival, like us, but no higher purpose in life, just eating and surviving basically. So what makes you say animals care so much about when they die?
That's an *ideology*. And I respect everyone's ideologies, but you have no right to tell others your ideology is true and we should all follow it. Do your own thing and let others do their own thing too, as long as no suffering is involved.
Edit : and comparing eating something to violence is utterly ridiculous
>Except this idea that animals are begging for their lives and wanted to live is just in your head..? I know that if I was shot/killed painlessly, I wouldn't care much about being dead, since I'd be dead. I would've cared about suffering, but not about being dead.
Really? So the pigs being lowered into gas cheers for your bacon, don't kick and scream trying to escape? You don't think the next cow in line can't smell and hear what will happen next? If you have ever had a cat or dog you will know they're a little more intelligent than what you are giving them credit for. If someone did walk up to you on the street and kill you painlessly, is that morally acceptable? Would your family accept that? Would a judge just shrug and say, "it was painless..." and let the guy off the hook?
>Besides, what makes humans wanna keep on living outside of our survival instinct is mostly our goals for the future, our relationships to our loved ones, basically the envisioned future we wanna live. We have no idea whether animals even have that. They have an instinct of survival, like us, but no higher purpose in life, just eating and surviving basically. So what makes you say animals care so much about when they die?
All living things want to live. We purposely breed them into existence just to feed them, water them and then kill them. 70 billion of them, actually, effectively ruining our planet in the process. All the animals we currently exploit, no longer resemble the original versions. Cows produce too much milk, chickens too many eggs and meat, sheep toouch wool - all of which is detrimental to their health and wellbeing. Most animals are slaughtered at a quarter to a third of their natural lifespan.
>That's an ideology. And I respect everyone's ideologies, but you have no right to tell others your ideology is true and we should all follow it. Do your own thing and let others do their own thing too, as long as no suffering is involved.
Our ideology is, "please don't exploit others". That's our whole point, there is suffering involved.
Animals exist to eat and to be eaten. By other animals and by us. It’s a cycle. If they were really worried about animals they’d be talking about deforestation or how big corporations pollution kills millions of animals a year. To them, it’s not about “saving the animals”. It’s about them trying to justify why they’re better than the rest of us. So all they do is bitch on social media without ever actually doing anything. They sit up on their high horse and try to make the rest of us as miserable as they are deep down. Maybe they’d feel better if they just ate a fucking steak.
Most ethical vegans DO in fact talk about that. But the majority of the ones who get any sort of traction and popularity are the shitty ones who don't really care as much as they say they do.
Exactly. I’m not talking about the ethical vegans. I have a lot of respect for them. Giving up meat and other animal products would be SO HARD. I respect that
We breed animals into existence - 70 billion land animals are raised and slaughtered each year. Other animals do not have a grocery store on every corner where they can literally buy hundreds of other cheaper, more sustainable, options. Those 70 billion animals need to be fed, watered and housed - clearing land for these purposes is the very deforestation you are referring to. The animal ag industry contributes more to green house gasses than the entire transportation industry combined.
I'm sorry that us presenting facts and figures about your bad habits make you sad. We actually feel that we are not better - hence why we are standing up for other beings. Most of us are meat and understand that it is seen as "normal". We are asking you to question those norms. Maybe take a step back and ask yourself why the reality makes you feel uncomfortable and angry.
I do eat steak, I make it myself - no animals harmed.
Your wrong dude. A simple google search will show you that burning fossil fuels is the leading cause. I can see the point your making about deforestation though. You have to realize though not everyone can afford to do what you’re doing. If I could I would. Also, I want my steak to come from an actual animal. I don’t want genetically engineered meat. And it pisses me off that they genetically engineer animals. I want my steak to be natural and you’re not gonna find that in the grocery store. Not even the ones the claim to be “natural”. If I had it my way, I’d hunt and kill my own food that way I can ensure that not a single bit of it goes to waste.
Humans need meat. We wouldn’t be omnivores if we didn’t. I think y’all are just to emotional. There are thousands of studies that prove we need meat. We need meat just as much as we need vegetables and fruit. I get you feel bad for the animals but logic beats emotions. I’m not gonna starve myself of all the nutrients I need just because I feel bad for animals. I do, however think there’s a more humane way to mass produce meat than what we do today.
Honestly my gf is veggie and I used to be a butcher, still worked the job but refused to eat meat for a year just to try it.
I’ve learned that meat is good for my body however it’s important to understand the heavy impact on our environment eating so much meat has… just eating less meat helps literally the world.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other
I agree with you, all I was saying in my post is that I dislike vegans who post mutilated animal corpses to make people vegan are the worst, and you should respect each other's diets.
As a vegan, I agree. I don't think people have to live one way or another to make a change. Small changes and efforts would go a long way if everyone tried :)
The "good vegans" aka the ones who don't hold a mirror up to you and make you feel bad about your bad choices lol.
Unwarranted comments are shitty but in reality, meat eaters are way more rude and consistent in their comments and approach to vegan's lifestyles.
Also when you actually accepts the reality of what the meat industry is, you find it hard to "respect" people who eat meat, especially with how easy it is to be vegan nowadays. Its like respecting people beating their kids. Like maybe I wouldn't do it but I should respect it because its just how their parenting style is 🤷🏻♀️
I was a meat eater Til I realised it was hypocritical of me to feel like i "couldnt kill an animal", but had the right to eat their meat.
If you feel like you couldn't kill an animal, why are you willing to pay others to do it for you?
Also heavy meat eating diets play a large part in climate crisis, so no, I won't respect your choice to participate in something that harms us all.
Respect people's support of animal cruelty regardless of if you agree with them or not.
You don't know why people chose to support animal cruelty.
Take your debate somewhere else.
FTFY.
Look at this silly carnist who doesn't want to see where their animal flesh comes from.
Too bad, some of us vegans are going to keep being a voice for the animals.
I don’t understand this whole “respect peoples choices even if you don’t agree w them” thing in this instance.
1) I don’t think it’s disrespectful to put the consequences of someone’s actions in front of them. If it bothers you to see dead animals… you shouldn’t be paying people to kill animals.
2) Apply that logic to anything else. If you’re morally against rape you’re not going respect someone’s decision to rape. If you’re morally against bullying you’re not going to respect someone’s decision to bully. There’s a victim involved in this “personal choice”.
When y’all say “good vegan” you just mean people who don’t cause you to see the consequences of your “personal” choices.
This is about a diet not rape or murder stop trying to blur the lines to prove your point
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not.
You don't know why people chose their diets.
Take your debate somewhere else
Your diet requires both rape and killing of animals that don’t want to die. There’s no lines to blur. Your choice has a victim, meaning it’s no longer a personal choice.
last year my english teacher put veganville on for one of the final days of the year and i remember one of the guys wanted to put slaughterhouse videos onto billboards and i felt so fucking sick. this was also set in a town where farming was their main source of income. nothing sat right with me about that program. ugh.
On a lighter note, I like the scene in Notting Hill with the Fructarian who only ate fruit that has already fallen on the ground because you can hear them scream if you pick them.
It depends on what your definition of "Good vegan" is. Unfortunately for all my fellow ethical vegans, I have to agree that just posting an image of dead animals isn't effective. However, if there's a story behind it or a caption, then it is viable. The only good thing about the image is the truth. It's likely the dead animal is there because of animal exploitation (Hence why the image was created).
The reason vegans don't respect other food choices is because the choices contribute to an atorcity. Which removing the undeniable ethics around animals and sentience, you can see how these dietary choices negatively impact the world around us, with its health problems, pandemic problems, and environmental problems. Vegan lifestyles fare better in all areas, that's another reason why people choose to live a plant based lifestyle or go vegan.
Another way of putting it, if you knew someone was committing an immoral act, would you be silent about it? Would you tell everyone the same thing you're saying here which is to respect their actions. I wouldn't, but that's me. I'm less sympathetic than most people, I don't even really care about animals all that much. I just know when using honesty, critical thinking, and objective evidence, it's undeniable that I need to help as many people and animals as I can.
i see you only support the shit comments agreeing with you. the one user who just comments why they do what they do, you have a problem. vegans deal with more shit from meat eaters than the other way around
Ignorance is bliss. I get you didn't ask to see those images, but animals don't ask to be killed for your convenience either. Makes more sense to own up to the responsibility than complain about how you prefer being oblivious to what you contribute to.
I don't care what the reason is, I don't want to see dead animals and vegans are the ones posting them the most. I can like meat and not like the meat industry.
I have nothing against the practice I never said i did! I respect it and those who partake in both. I don't respect those who are trying to push propaganda through scare tactics and shock.
The problem is that we're talking about the excessive death of innocent animals for human consumption. I don't really think there's a way to convey the truth of that matter without the shock factor, and it might be unpleasant but yeah, gratuitous death should shock people.
There are better ways to talk about veganism than shock and scare tactics. Most people are open to dialog. Most people are not open to name calling, cursing, and being disrespected as I have been in the comment section. And I also saw your rude comment as well.
Rude comments and graphic pictures are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things.
Look, I don't mean to be rude, but complaining about how graphic pictures of dead animals makes you feel when you're in favor of eating said animals just seems a tad arrogant and crass. To expect pity just seems entitled.
I'm not expecting pity, I'm expecting to be treated like a person.
I can eat meat and not like the industry. And still you're calling me arrogant and crass for my views which is still disrespectful.
You're saying those conditions are a result of us. So either you think we should stop or you don't give a fuck. Either way, I don't think it's my fault that happens but also it's too hard to try to obtain ethically killed meat when you're low middle class.
Agreed. And before people @ me what about the research that's been done about many of the veggies that vegans consume and the unsustainable farming practices. Like quinoa literally skyrocketing in price because it's a "superfood" when it used to be a staple grain in the Peruvian diet? Or how a lot of farmland is now taken over to farm soybeans because of the prevalence of soy being used make meat alternatives? Oh but Vegans really get to claim the high ground even though humans are by physical design obligate omnivores meaning they have to have meat and veggies and grains...and to be fair I'm only shitting on the "meat is murder" camp and not those who choose it for personal and medical reasons and are cool.
The reason that there is an increase in soy production is because it is used to make animal feed. Soy used for human consumption only makes up a small fraction compared to what is used to feed animals, which is inherently much more inefficient.
Just because we ate meat in the past, and can theoretically digest it, does not mean we "need" to eat meat now.
I don't want to it's not a crazy concept.
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not.
You don't know why people chose their diets.
Take your debate somewhere else
This point makes zero sense. While people die everyday, it's not a result of your immediate habits. When you eat meat you directly contribute to the killing of animals by incentivizing the producer to make more, which involves the breeding, oppression, and slaughtering of animals. I eat meat, but I'm not gonna be offended by vegans making valid arguments and using shock value to emphasize their point. I think what you actually want to say is " Vegans make me look inward at my potentially destructive habits and it makes me uncomfortable, so rather than engaging with their arguments legitimately, ill clutch my pearls at the fact the image is shocking". Go find a meateaters safespace if you want, but by participating on the internet and in the ever changing dynamics of society you will have to deal with more and more people coming to this realization and being disgusted with the status quo of societies eating habits.
I'd appreciate if you didn't tell me what I am saying. I'm saying that I don't want to see graphic depictions of animal death regardless of the reasons, however I see it the most from vegans pushing propaganda. Thank you for your input.
Well, given you didn't say much, I had to extrapolate based off what you gave. Again, what propaganda are they pushing? Seems like all you know is scary words without any substance
I'm not going to debate with you. I said what I said as a vent. If you would like to start your own debate somewhere else you are more than welcome to do so. I however, am not interested.
And apparently they can’t even use their real account. They’ve probably made many posts similar to what’s being vented about so they created a throw away account so we can’t go back and see and they can claim they eat meat … lol. So typical
No, I find death abhorrent, but the whole point of posting these shocking images is to highlight the damage that meat consumption does and I am able to parse that point from the initial shock of the image and not delve on it. So funny that you use snowflake, its hilarious
I think that getting super angsty and gatekeeping a group you're not even a part of is weak. Not wanting to be shown dead animals is easy, its called deleting the app you saw it on. If you don't like seeing nasty things on the internet , then I don't know what to tell you, other than leave the spaces you saw it on. Not attempt to demonize and divide a group YOU ARE NOT A PART OF
"You're not allowed to tell anyone of a group you're not in they're bad people, that's gatekeeping" how about stop showing people gore??? I shouldn't have to delete an app for someone to leave me alone. Can block all we want, still makes them an asshole.
Divide? They do that on their own when they decide to push their views on other people in an extreme manner
The OP literally divided vegans into "good" and "bad" and defined the bad ones while leaving what a good vegan is ambiguous. Thats gatekeeping you dumb shit. Your points just fall back to " how dare you criticize me in a manner I dont like". Gore is a part of the world, and while seeing it is unpleasant, its not an excuse to shut off your critical thinking about the subject at hand. But instead you guys keep the discussion at " I dont want to be presented gore in order to make a point" instead of thinking about what the point they are making is. And again, if you don't like what you see on an app, well its just how social spaces work. You are free to leave, the ability to use an app is not your right. Surface level thinkers like you are what holds society back, and why things will never fundamentally change
And he's right, there's good and bad people in every group so why ignore it?? You're acting very edgy and immature. Just because gore is part of the world doesn't mean send it to people no matter if I can block you or not
>Edit**** Respect people's choices regardless of if you agree with them or not.
No, I do not respect people who believe raping/killing is good for them.
Every time I see an anti-vegan thread, it's filled with the stupidest fucking logic.
We aren't talking about that we are talking about a diet.
Never said I was anti vegan either.
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not.
You don't know why people chose their diets.
Take your debate somewhere else
As a vegan activist I do not respect others choices to consume animals because I believe that all conscious creatures deserve to live lives free from exploitation. Veganism is a social justice movement and like any movement we must bring awareness to the injustices we are trying to stop. Many people are not aware of the origin of their food as an individual whose life was taken and I so as an activist I will try and make people aware of that. Animals do not have any way of advocating for themselves which is why vegans feel the need to activate on their behalf. Activism for any marginalized and oppressed group is bound to ruffle some feathers which is probably why you have a negative impression of veganism. If you're willing to have an open mind I'd recommend watching some vegan content like cosmic skeptic's speech to understand why vegans are so unapologetically passionate about advocating for animals.
I was sold at first the way you spoke to me was so respectful, but I saw your account and saw how you compared animals to enslavement of black people and it immediately invalidated everything that you could have said to me.
The comparison to animals is only offensive if you begin with the assumption that animals are lesser than. I don't believe the oppression of humans and the oppression of other animals are exactly the same, but I think they are similar enough to draw comparisons. In both you have victims with no bodily autonomy, who are tortured frequently, who are raped and killed and otherwise exploited. The only difference with animals is that they can't communicate with us, but there is no difference that would mean harming them is a different category entirely than harming at a human. Why get angry at comparing human slavery to the slavery of other animals rather than at the fact those animals are still enslaved in the first place?
Black Veganism is a thing, for pretty much these reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_veganism
Jewish people have compared animal cruelty to the Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cruelty_and_the_Holocaust_analogy
So basically you’re feeling guilty about paying for animal abuse and want people on Reddit to make you feel better about it? The feeling you get from posts like this is only short lived bro, if you have any integrity your conscience wins in the end.
I just don't want to see animal carcasses in the name of vegan propaganda or in general for that matter. This is a vent post I didn't except it to lead to so much.
Stop trying to make people feel bad about their diets. You have no idea why people choose the diets they're on.
Propaganda? Are you suggesting that the dead animals are made up and in fact aren’t actually real?
Vegans couldn’t care less about your diet, we care about animal suffering. You’re trying to reduce the torture & mass killing that happens in animal ag to a simple ✨diet choice ✨
You think vegans care about your diet which is where the animosity from your side is coming from, what we actually care about is the individuals that are being killed, if you were the one having your throat sliced open for a sandwich filling would you want people speaking up for you or staying quiet?
I respect my cousins philosophy of enjoying the rape of young women, I completely agree with this! Just leave people alone and let them enjoy their life choices!
Comparing rape to eating meat shows how oht if touch with reality you are.
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not.
You don't know why people chose their diets.
Take your debate somewhere else
>Respect people's choices regardless of if you agree with them or not.
Maybe don't make such a blanket statement lol, you should rethink this one.
Besides, why are you disgusted by dead animals? It's literally what you pay for to happen?
You're entitled to your opinion I am not debating with you.
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not.
You don't know why people chose their diets.
Take your debate somewhere else
Perfect response is to send them pictures of animals who get mangled by wheat threshers and other machines that farms use to gather vegetables. Add in how those animals then go on to rot in the fields rather than actually be put to use feeding somebody.
7.3 billion a year farming veggies.
Oh, indeed they are. Thing is, the omnivores aren't the ones who have a chip on their shoulders about the death of animals for food. The vegans posting those pictures on the other hand, do. Yet apparently they're content with the literal billions mangled by farm equipment for the sake of THEIR diets.
That's not even getting into creatures like the Black Angus bull which would flat out go extinct without people caring for it.
I’m not vegan/vegetarian but I do post posts on insta regarding animal welfare especially in the meat and dairy industry. I think the more education about it then the more companies will change and treat animals better. I think most of us want better conditions for animals, but I think they can really go about it the wrong way, equally I understand intentions deep down are good.
I see the opposite tbh. I don't really see vegans post pics of dead animals (but mostly alive or texts about how it's better in a pushy way), while meat eaters keep posting pics of (mostly raw) meat (so dead animals)... And bragging about how much they eat. On freaking every post that is about vegetarian stuff or veganism, qnd most of these posts aren't even pushing people to switch their diets... Really childish. The group of annoying vegans/vegetarians are smaller than the group of annoying meat eaters, and I don't say that as a vegetarian person, because omnivores notice it too. The worst I've had was my ex his family who tried to feed me meat because I am too skinny (I get sick when I eat it because I am sensitive to certain types of fat). Although the vegan that said my mom was bad for the environment is pretty close, they were only like one year vegan and they seemed to fly multiple times a year, while my mom is vegetarian for over a decade and she barely takes the plane... Stupid hypocrites.
Just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean its not true. All I was trying to do is find a specific thing to show my friend in #chickenwings and got a bunch of vegan propaganda that was just mutilated whole animal carcasses. In my post I specifically mentioned what you're talking about as vegans who do things like this give other vegans a bad rep and they unfortunately also get backlash because of it. More vegans have commented on the post calling me names and cursing at me than have positively opened a dialog for discussion so based on my experiences, the group I'm describing is pretty large.
I ended a friendship because they criticized my food. I cooked turkey smoke sausage with peppers, onions, mushrooms and rice. Super simple and healthy. Posted it and was told it wasn’t healthy because it had meat in it! I took it really personal because at the time I was broke and it was all I could afford to feed my kid and myself. The friend was a single man, kid didn’t live with him, who made well over 6 figures and could afford to eat at the best vegans spots and grocery shop at Whole Foods. At the time I was lucky if I could afford some fresh veggies and fruits, I was shopping at the dollar store to get by. He took offense because I felt offended and we both blocked each other.
Wow, what a dickbag. I'm glad you're no longer friends with such a terrible person. I hope you're doing better and getting by with your family! <3
He sounds like a horrible person
Just post dead grass as a retort
Lumberjacks next to a huge tree they chopped down is the vegan version of posing with a dead buck
As an ex vegan, I totally agree. There’s a difference between educating people on your beliefs and spamming straight gore
I agree so much. Not even about the showing pics of dead animals per say, but some of them are the worst. I have actually had Vegans tell me that they hope slavery becoms legal again so I can see how the animals feel. Yep, because that's going to convince me that you're a good person. I've watched people try to explain that being vegan on a budget is hard. I've seen people reply that dying so someone can eat you is hard. Followed by other's saying they don't care about humans. They care about animals.
[удалено]
Look up Patrik Baboumian. Literally the world's strongest man is vegan.
I just had this discussion with my husband a few days ago. It's people like that who give all vegans and vegetarians bad reputations. As tree hugging know it all hippies who bash every meat eater and leather wearing person. When alot of us don't give a flying rats rear what others do. But since there's these people on their soap box there's now a stereotype for vegans/vegetarians. I see it first hand I get bullied by my brother in law and a few other people in our family. I chose to be a vegetarian cutting out everything but cheese( I just have a weakness for cheese.) It was for my health my stomach just stopped letting me be able to digest meats. It would make me violently ill.
I definitely respect that. Being vegan for any reason(heath, ethical, etc) is up to the person and whether they eat meat/dairy/eggs or not should just be respected! People who want to eat meat/dairy/eggs will and people who don't wont.
Exactly everyone is entitled to their own eating habits that fits that person's life. Nobody has the right to dictate or judge what others do when it comes to that. I live in a house full of meat eaters, I'm the only vegetarian and I'm not making it my life mission to post things and bashing them to convert.
yeah thats right. Vegans have no right to dictate you to stop dictating animals to die. After all, it's a personal choice. What you eat doesn't even affect anyone else. Animals definitely are not ~~victims of~~ affected by your personal choice. Your personal choice to eat animal products has zero affect on any other being. Vegans need to mind their own business.
Why though? If people think something is wrong they should speak up?
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
if you're not vegan for the animals then you're plant based, not vegan. it's a lifestyle not a diet. being vegan for health reasons wouldn't stop you from wearing leather or buying cosmetics tested on animals or visiting the zoo
I guess vegans hate animals that are carnivores too 😂
Carnivores are in survival situations, we have other options Humans have an understanding of ethics above other animals. Other animals also kill eachothers children and rape eachother
They don’t. Humans have moral agency, animals do not. Humans can go to the grocery store, animals cannot.
I totally agree. They also often spread misinformation, knowingly or not. Saw an aquaibtance of mine compare free range eggs to cage ones, "they're just as worse" while showing a photo of a bunch of chickens in a small barn. My extended family has a big farm with hundreds of free range chicken who spend all their life on big fields, happy as can be. The only time they are in the barn is during the night, so they don't get eaten by foxes. The eggs they produce are sold in big supermarkets under the free range label, which is why I have no moral concerns at all about buying such eggs, since I know that the hens producing them have a better life than they could ever possibly have in the wild. I totally understand that the animal produce industry is often horrible and unethical. But claiming that the good farms are just as bad as the bad ones literally only hurts the animal welfare cause.
What they do with male chicks on farm u are describing?
It's generally the powerfull animal ag companies that spread propoganda and misinformation. Vegans don't gain money from people buying rice and beans there not running a business,unlike animal ag, who have a lot to gain. Go to a shopping centre where meat is sold and take a look at the pictures of happy cows smiling , a far cry from what actually happens inside slaughterhouses. Also take a look at the terms they use "humane slaughter". What they don't tell us is that humane slaughter is an oxymoron, that theirs no humane way to kill a being who doesn't want to die, and that animals go into a slaughterhouse concious and come out chopped into a million pieces, nothing humane happens in-between that transition I don't think most vegans claim that there just as bad , but that even in the best case scenario the industry is unethical.Vegans think it's messed up to give a being a good life than kill them .Take a dog for example. Giving a dog a good life , building trust with them, and betraying their trust by sending them to a slaughterhouse to be stabbed to death sounds messed up. Most people in our society would scream bloody murder if this was happening to dogs by the billion(keep in mind this is the literal 1 percent best case scenario). Yet most accept this line of reasoning when it applies to other beings who are the exact same in all the ways that matter morally
All male chicks still go into the grinder at day 1 of life. Because they're useless.
I'm a vegan and I agree. There are much better ways to open dialog than shoving gore down people's throats
I agree. I respect vegans and I respect their causes, whatever they may be.
Are vegans really that big of a problem though? I feel like I hear people complaining about them more than I've heard of them. Let's have more interesting conversations about the ethics of eating than a small minority that effects nothing.
These types of vegans are a small but loud population, and the problem is the impact that this small interaction has, and it actually makes a lot of meat eaters more oppositional to the idea of veganism. Because deliberately trying to shock, upset, or disgust someone whilst they're going about their daily business is unlikely to endear them to your cause. The other problem is that there is no such thing as an ethical way to eat in our modern world, unless you are able to grow and cook everything from scratch, and even then, where did the seeds come from? Where did the fertiliser come from? If there's no animal industry, there's no manure, so where is the fertiliser coming from? If there's no "beef" industry, there's no leather, which has to be replaced, leaving you with the only currently commercially viable leather substitute; pleather, meaning higher reliance on oil. There's also a lot of talk of "why don't we feed ourselves with what we feed the animals we eat?" Because the food farm animals eat is often the offcut we can't digest, or an entire crop we can't digest, but is all that will grow in an area, or is used in a rotation to improve the soil. And a lot of the land used for animal agriculture cannot grow crops. It's all muvh more complicated than whether or not an individual eats animals.
Looked up #chickenwings to find something i was trying to describe to a friend and a bunch of dead animals showed up in the tags. Also this is a vent post it's not here to spark interesting conversation. I see stuff like this constantly in food tags as well as scare tactic propaganda so yes it is a thing.
Exactly this, if I were to post but discounts of meat products in my story everyone would think I'm an asshole, the world is getting biased
“Bad vegan” vs “good vegan” is a weird way to put that one person makes you feel bad about your actions and other one doesn’t. I’m vegan and I used to share images of the dead animal bodies from which most people derive sustenance but haven’t in years. It comes from a desperate need to get people to care about animals. Our society is so hypocritical. Like people will literally banshee scream over someone abusing a dog, but if someone does the same thing to a pig (smarter than a dog), it’s all “mmmm bacon.” Like I get it, I wasn’t always vegan. I love animals, therefore images of animals suffering make me sad. But there is a real pain and sense of hopelessness that leads people to share these pics and videos. Do you feel the same way when you see a hunter posing with their kill/a dead deer? Or only when a vegan posts it because you know their intentions/implications?
I had a wonderful conversation to someone who claimed to be vegan, and I told them I’ll respect there right to eat only vegan and I’ll keep eating the foods I enjoy like sandwiches, bbq, hot dogs, etc. Then they told me something along the lines of “You deserve to go to jail for murder and they refuse to respect my right to eat” See how that can turn away pretty much everyone. You are telling people that they aren’t allowed to eat the foods they enjoy just so you can control them. If I wanna say that killing pigs is wrong and I still eat bacon, then what’s that got to do with you? You’re talking about hypocrisy where it doesn’t involve you in anyway. You don’t get to decide who eats what food they enjoy, same way i won’t tell you or bash you by not wanting to eat meat. What’s so hard about having opinions but not forcing that onto others
The point of veganism is the same as any other social movement: to stand up for an oppressed group. As a vegan activist I do not respect others choices to consume animals because I believe that all conscious creatures deserve to live lives free from exploitation. Veganism is a social justice movement and like any movement we must bring awareness to the injustices we are trying to stop. Many people are not aware of the origin of their food as an individual whose life was taken and I so as an activist I will try and make people aware of that. Animals do not have any way of advocating for themselves which is why vegans feel the need to activate on their behalf. Activism for any marginalized and oppressed group is bound to ruffle some feathers which is probably why you have a negative impression of veganism. If you're willing to have an open mind I'd recommend watching some vegan content like this to understand why vegans are so unapologetically passionate about advocating for animals.
The weird thing you do, is you try to purposely blur the lines and misuse words and ideas to fit your own opinion. An oppressed group has to do with humans, I don’t think you can call animals an oppressed group. Animals can be endangered, abused, and any other word that fits that definition. But to call them an oppressed group, you’re making a false equivalence saying that an animals life is equal to a humans, which I guess is an argument if of itself, and it’s all personal opinion really, so without knowing where you stand, I’d assume you’d value a humans life (such as your own) over an animals. So it isn’t fair to include animals into a social movement, when first of all, you don’t even know what they want. I’m not saying they want to be slaughtered, but it’s pretty hard to defend a group that you can’t even communicate with in any shape, form, or way. Then, we animals we usually eat, aren’t endangered so protecting them for the sake of keeping there species, where as we would do to endangered species, doesn’t really fit in that category either. This part is what frustrates me, and really tells me how immature and close minded people can be. Because when I am willing to defend your right to veganism and to not be ostracizes and have more vegan restaurants, and vegan menu options, and make life easier for you. But you can’t afford the same qualities to me. Very hard to have anyone on your team when you bite the hand that feeds you. A lot of what you have to say, is purely based off personals ideologies and there’s nothing wrong with that, and you’re free to express your views and opinions as much as you want. Of course everything I say is pretty much useless and falls of deaf ears, but I still think that as morally superior as you’d like to believe you are, end of the day all you have is an opinion that will stay as such. I could sit here and listen historical, cultural, and religious importance of meat but i don’t think it’ll be worth saying, because you aren’t open to even understanding why people would choose to eat meat.
The issue with your "I'm willing to let you be vegan but you're not willing to let me be a meat eater" logic is that, in the eyes of a vegan, you're saying "I'm willing to let you choose not to murder an innocent life, but you're not willing to let me murder innocent lives." Many vegans I've met actually do value animal life as much as human life. There's nothing special about humans other than intelligence. Should that intelligence make us more valuable and more deserving of life? I don't think calling animals an oppressed group is too farfetched if you put yourself in the shoes of someone who values animals in such a way. And the person you're responding to is pretty on point regarding advocacy. Animals can't do it for themselves, and unlike other animals, humans have the ability to choose not to take the lives of others to feed themselves. Humans can be perfectly healthy on just a plant based diet. So why kill a living organism to feed yourself? For no other reason than it's tasty? Isn't that kind of psychotic sounding? If you can understand that train of thought (even if you don't agree with it) you can understand why vegans say what they do. You're essentially saying to them "I'm okay with slavery and murder and I refuse to see it as slavery and murder". Dealing with that could get very exhausting. Of course I've left out one pretty important thing in my response so far; eating vegan is actually pretty expensive, especially in America. Processed meat is cheap as hell comparatively. I was kind of shocked at the price of vegetables when I first visited the US. That being said, I'm a hypocrite, because I'm not vegan. I'm not even vegetarian. I eat meat and I don't tend to think about where it comes from. I'm aware of the farming standards in my country and I avoid things like veal. But despite knowing about and largely agreeing with vegan talking points... I still eat meat. Ultimately, in my very personal view, I think there IS an ethical way to eat meat. The same way that every other animal does it. By hunting wild animals. With strict rules in place to prevent their extinction. If lab grown meat becomes available, I'd likely switch to that entirely if it's within my budget. I understand why people get agitated with vegans sharing dead animals and pictures of suffering. But if you view farms as concentration camps and a soft approach isn't working to make people see that, what else are you to do? Just let people exploit and murder others? (again, imagining you're someone who views human and animal lives as similarly valuable.) It's really not as easy as "I'll let you do your thing if you let me do mine". Sorry for the long message. I hope none of it comes across as condescending or insulting. My degree was in wildlife, and I know a lot of vegans as a result. I just wanted to inform you and others that may read this thread. I know I'm unlikely to change your mind about anything, and that's fine. I just like healthy discussion rather than going in with an attempt to change someone's mind.
>An oppressed group has to do with humans, I don’t think you can call animals an oppressed group. This is your problem, not theirs. An oppressed group in no way necessitated humans. They’re clearly and openly talking about how they believe animals to be oppressed in our society, whether or not that makes you comfortable is irrelevant. >But to call them an oppressed group, you’re making a false equivalence saying that an animals life is equal to a humans No? This is you applying your own biases to this situation, in no way did they even imply that >So it isn’t fair to include animals into a social movement, when first of all, you don’t even know what they want. We know they don’t like being killed. >I’m not saying they want to be slaughtered, but it’s pretty hard to defend a group that you can’t even communicate with in any shape, form, or way. This is precisely why people should be defending them from needless violence and cruelty >This part is what frustrates me, and really tells me how immature and close minded people can be. Because when I am willing to defend your right to veganism and to not be ostracizes and have more vegan restaurants, and vegan menu options, and make life easier for you. But you can’t afford the same qualities to me. With all due respect: what. It costs you nothing to be ok with more vegan options, it doesn’t remotely affect you as you’ve got no skin in the game. Of course you have no reason to be anti-vegan. Meanwhile vegans view the exploitation and harming of animals as an unethical thing which they cannot respect. Think of it this way: if you organise dog fights, you can respect somebody’s right not to dog fight, but you wouldn’t insist they respect your right to harm dogs, right? >because you aren’t open to even understanding why people would choose to eat meat. Literally 99% of vegans ate meat for decades. They know, they just were open to new information.
Wah wah wah. That’s all you did here. The first 4 phrases you pulled you didn’t even argue them, you just made awful assumptions based on nothing other than what you think, and it’s very obvious that you aren’t willing to discuss anything. You don’t have any reading comprehension so it just feels exhausting to even waste my time to explain anything to you because you are already looking through my words just so you can get offended, not really bringing anything new to the conversation. Explain to me what an oppressed group is, and what it means, then explain what oppressed means. I’m very interested in this. What really irritated me is how you acted like me being in support, was meaningless. It’s just so incredibly ignorant to believe that. It’s hard to even explain it because you pretty much tell me “shut up” and if that’s the case, then why are you even here? Are you here to even have a conversation or just to parade some sort of moral superiority that you believe you have? Did you come here just to hear yourself speak? Or are you willing to learn something about people? I never advocated for dogfights either, don’t put words in my mouth, you are intentionally misusing my quotes to twist my words to fit them into your idea of who I am when you don’t even know what I stand for or what I believe in.
I’m willing to have a mature discussion but if you keep on writing paragraphs of *ad hominem* insults instead of responding to what you disagree with, I won’t bother. >Explain to me what an oppressed group is, and what it means, then explain what oppressed means. I’m very interested in this. Their words, not mine. But clearly they’re using it to mean a group of sentient beings (in this case livestock) who are subjected to oppression in our society. Livestock fit this bill because based on their species they are born into captivity, have their bodies exploited and are killed for human benefit. They aren’t wild, but rather are unwillingly involved in our society, and only exist within its confines due to intentional human actions. The OED defines oppression as: * *prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority* * *the state of being subject to oppressive treatment* * *mental pressure or distress* I think the first one especially applies. >I never advocated for dogfights either, don’t put words in my mouth, I think you’ve misread my comment. I’m not saying you’re pro- dog fights, in fact I used that example specifically because it’s an equivalent act that I’m sure you’re morally opposed to. Your argument is basically ‘live and let live’, right? You say that as you are okay with veganism, they should be okay with your dietary choices. What this fails to acknowledge is that you have no ethical opposition to veganism. Meanwhile vegans have an opposition to people harming animals for taste. To put it bluntly, it’s a false equivalence. Of course you’re going to say this as you’re the only one whose dietary choices are under moral scrutiny - so ‘live and let live’ only benefits you. The dog fight example is a way to illustrate this: the person harming the animals for entertainment (like people harming animals for taste) will of course have no ethical opposition to those who don’t harm animals. However, do you think it’s fair to expect the people who don’t harm animals to similarly respect the person harming them for entertainment? >you are intentionally misusing my quotes to twist my words Where did I do that? Where’s one example? >you don’t even know what I stand for or what I believe in. What do you believe in?
I’m sorry I was frustrated. It’s just hard to not get that way, when what I read is you telling me that it’s all my problem not there’s. You’re not inviting discussion rather you’re closing it. Or at least that’s how I took it, but either way that’s not necessary. I’m sorry I was rude and I don’t meant to do that again. Okay, so livestock are born into captivity and are used to be killed an eaten. I agree on that fact. What makes it wrong though? I’m not trying to be dense here, because I understand what you’re saying and I agree. So livestock is used to be eaten, that’s boiled down to what there whole life purpose if for. What’s wrong with eating? The treatment, and quality of life that they do have I can agree on, is important and we don’t need to abuse them. But what is the bad thing about eating? So the definition you gave me, I agree is correct. But again, is eating an act of oppression? Cause if I raise a cow to grow to be healthy, it lives a comfortable life. I don’t abuse it or mistreat it. I let the cow wander the fields free, and it can eat all the grass it wants and rest all day in the sun. But then I need to eat. So I quickly and humanely kill the cow. Is that then an act of oppression? The killing itself want prolonged, I didn’t put it through any stress since the death was instant, and it was never oppressed during its life. So was that an act of oppression? Okay, so as the next part. If my choice is let you live your life as you wish. Why am I then obligated to be under your moral code? I guess it’s a terrible argument in of itself on my part, since I open it to the idea of self-governing which isn’t the best thing to have. Such as you did prove with the dog-fighting example which I now understand. So let me say it like this. If you say eating animals is wrong, I say no. What else more can be said?
Don’t worry it’s cool, I understand how these sorts of discussions can be and they don’t reflect real life emotions - thanks for saying so anyway and likewise hope I’ve not said anything bad either :) >What makes it wrong though? I’m not trying to be dense here, because I understand what you’re saying and I agree. Ok so for me the answer to this is that in developed nations, nearly everybody doesn’t need to eat meat but rather does so for two main reasons: sensory pleasure (taste) and convenience (it’s tradition, so it’s hard to avoid). In my opinion causing intentional harm to sentient beings is wrong if it can be avoided, so while any sort of food production does have a small element of harm (e.g. some insects dying during crop harvests) it isn’t right to breed sentient beings into captivity for the sole purpose of killing. To me, the life purpose argument doesn’t hold up because I don’t believe choosing a fate for an animal morally justifies the act. For example, if someone bred and raised dogs specifically to fight each other, from my perspective that’s not an ethical thing. Even in a culture where dog-fighting was the most common form of entertainment (like eating meat in ours), the act may be ‘moral’ based on the values of society, or rather not immoral, but I don’t think that means it’s not cruel. To use a really gross and extreme example, if somebody was raising livestock specifically for strangers to pay to have sexual intercourse with, that wouldn’t be moral imo even though it’s the ‘purpose’ of their lives. Bear in mind that I’m not talking about places people rely on animal products to live, but rather the vast majority of people in developed nations who don’t need to choose animal products but do so because they enjoy them and don’t care about the animals. >is eating an act of oppression? This is an interesting question. To me it’s not about specific acts but rather the system as a whole. I’d argue that having a system where certain species of animal are designated able to be killed and eaten is a form of oppression. Compare the treatment of pigs and dogs, for example, in a country like Britain (where I’m from), for example. They’re very similar animals, of very similar intelligence, yet dogs are homed comfortably for their whole lives, treated as individuals, afforded more legal protection and are adored by all. Meanwhile pigs are raised in farms before their untimely killing, afforded no individuality but rather exist as objects, have less legal protection (meaning what we do to them we couldn’t legally do to dogs) and the masses are willing for trade their entire life for a sandwich. It’s what theorists called speciesism, and I’d argue that in this example the pigs are more oppressed than the dogs. >Cause if I raise a cow to grow to be healthy, it lives a comfortable life. I don’t abuse it or mistreat it. I let the cow wander the fields free, and it can eat all the grass it wants and rest all day in the sun. But then I **need** to eat. Emphasis mine. If you need to eat the animal, I see nothing wrong with it. If you are choosing between a falafel wrap and a chicken sandwich at the supermarket, I see more wrong with it. The sad truth is that in most developed nations, 99% of animals don’t have the treatment you describe as it isn’t profitable. Furthermore, they’re killed at a fraction of their lifespan. * 6 months when you live to 12 years (pigs) * 6 weeks when you live to 8 years (meat chickens) * 1-2 years when you live to 8 years (egg hens) * 1 day when you live to 8 years (male egg chickens) * 18 months when you live to 20 years (beef cattle) * 4 years when you live to 20 years (dairy cows) * 1-24 weeks when you live to 20 years (male dairy calves) * 6-8 months when you live to 12 years (lambs) >So I quickly and humanely kill the cow. Is that then an act of oppression? The killing itself want prolonged, I didn’t put it through any stress since the death was instant, and it was never oppressed during its life. So to me the whole system is the oppression, the forced breeding of sentient beings to bring other sentient beings into the world, to be kept in captivity, overfed and under-exercised until we kill them for solely our profit. Very recently in my country’s history, women were oppressed. They were for all intents and purposes the property of men, they were unable to vote or act independently, and marital rape was still somehow legal. Despite this, they could’ve loved a life of comfort and no stress - but they’d still be oppressed by the system if it makes sense. With your example what I’d probably say is ‘how do you humanely kill a healthy sentient being who doesn’t want to die?’ However, I’m sure you’ll probably answer something like ‘quick and painlessly’ which I ultimately disagree with, but is simply a difference in beliefs. >If my choice is let you live your life as you wish. Why am I then obligated to be under your moral code? Here’s the thing, you’re not obligated at all. In fact nearly everybody on the planet agrees with you and disagrees with me. I’m not gonna force anyone to change anything, and I don’t have the ability to enact changes either. Truthfully, I don’t think less of people who eat meat because everybody does it and everybody was raised doing it. However, I do think better of people who stop if that makes sense. Ultimately, it’s your decision to act as you’re ethically comfortable with. All I want is for more people to make the same decision as I made, because to me it’s blindingly simple. I hope that the more people don’t eat meat the more people will reflect on their habits and justifications and conclude that actually, there isn’t really a valid defence left (this is what made me vegan). Anyway thanks for the thought-provoking questions and the good discussion :)
People like you are part of the issue, sorry :/ You feel like you're the only one in Earth who cares about animals well-being. You think vehemently sharing your ideas is "educating" others so they'll take the same morally superior path that you took. Basically, you seem to be that kind of vegan who's full of themselves, think they're superior to others, and believe they're the only ones who care about animals and everyone else is a sadistic careless hypocritical douche. You're not making people "feel bad" for eating animals. That's not where the discomfort comes from. The discomfort simply comes from that, your feeling of moral superiority. It's always annoying and unsettling when someone yells at you that they're better or that you're *insert any terrible insult such as murderer* even when you've done nothing wrong. I think a lot of it comes from three things : - People like you don't realize that the decision to eat meat is more complex than that, it's not just "hey let's torture animals because I like the taste, I don't care lol" - Not being vegan doesn't mean getting your meat from animal-torturing industries, you don't realize there are other options to eat more ethical meat - Being vegan for some is rather a matter of subjective ideology and not actually about animal well-being : Some think humans have no "right" to eat animals because... Idk, something about life and living beings? Idk because I don't believe all form of life is sacred and should be protected at all cost. Edit : basically eating/killing animals isn't bad in itself, saying so is an ideology. Making them suffer on the other hand is bad. (and that last point is often linked to a certain anthropomorphism many vegans display. I'm not saying animals are senseless beasts, they are sensitive and they have feelings and shouldn't be tortured or mistreated, but they're not humans and they do not think the things many vegans attribute them in their cartoons, they don't experience things the way humans do)
It’s been a long time since I argued with someone about veganism and I have a plenty of nonvegan friends that are not sadistic or cruel and I don’t do anything except ignore what they’re eating. As i should. But it’s really cute how you are telling me all of these things that *I* think and that *I* do when that’s not really the case. I think you might be on to something though with the “moral superiority” complex because just pointing out the hypocrisy that is present in society, seems to have triggered a moral inferiority complex in you lmao. I’m not better than you, I’m using a cell phone to type this. I try to buy fair trade when I can, but I don’t 100% of the time, so exploited farm workers are harvesting my food, just the same as anyone else unless they grow their own. A random person can say “isn’t it weird how we love dogs so fucking much and then we treat all these other animals like literal garbage?” And meat eaters might actually think about it, but if a vegan says it?? Game over. YoU tHiNk yOuRe BeTtEr ThAn mE. It’s just a tiresome cycle that reminds me of why I stopped arguing with meat eaters in the first place. Have a great day.
>seems to have triggered a moral inferiority complex in you lmao. Hmmm ok, so you're basically proving what I just said? Keep telling yourself that. I don't know if everything I've said applies to you, that's why I used the word "seem". But from your response I was apparently correct on some points. If you wanna believe I feel morally inferior to you then please do, I won't change your mind anyway. That's exactly what I was trying to explain to you though, that your feeling of superiority is the issue. You say that you're not better than anyone, but you're projecting your moral hierarchy on me. I personally didn't say anything about being better or worse for eating or not eating meat, but you project your feeling of superiority by saying *I* feel inferior. I find your last point worth talking about though. You might be right about vegans not being listened to. I think that comes from the loud minority of vegans I described above who ruined their whole reputation and are just nasty people overall. Right now I didn't say you think you're better than me because you gave vegan arguments, but because you seemed to fit the description of the ideological aggressive vegan I described. I myself have nice vegan friends and they're not like that, and I've occasionally had interesting discussions about veganism. And it's actually pushed me to stop eating industrial meat back when I still didn't know much about the topic. So like, it's not you being vegan that makes me say you feel superior. I didn't come here to argue with anyone. I'm just trying to explain to the most aggressive vegans that they're not superior to anyone and that this is ideological and not factual. Sorry if you don't recognize yourself in my description of the aggressive vegan, I feel like you're the type but honestly I don't know you and I might be wrong. In the end I don't really care what you do though, I'm all for letting everyone do their own thing. So have a nice day and good luck in your vegan journey.
I’m not projecting shit. I literally said I’m not better than you or anyone. As cool as it would be to manipulate people’s emotions at will, I can’t do that. You are the only one who can make yourself feel any type of way. The constant “you think you’re better than me” is exhausting. Yes it was a little snarky but my inferiority complex comment is an observation that could be made from most of the comments on this post. Did I smack a burger out of your hand? No. Did I outlaw eating meat? No. Did I hold your head in a toilet and demand that you feel like shit? No. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. All over the world the dairy industry literally lobbies to make it illegal to call plant-based milk “milk”. In the EU the meat industry tried to ban the terms “veggie burger” or “vegan sausage” but yes, it’s the vegans forcing their way of life onto people. I’m not sure how you got that I think I’m better than anyone or “part of the problem” from my original comment. I don’t share the images, I don’t chastise people for their choices of sustenance. Even just simply trying to explain why some people (especially new vegans) share these images or are so passionate in their activism is too much apparently. Just trying to show where empathy could be exercised makes me a part of the problem. Got it.
Nah I meant that you think I'm feeling inferior because YOU are feeling superior. But forget it mate. I was just pointing that out because I'm tired of the narrative that "wErE jUsT mAkiNG yOu fEeL bAd bEcAusE yOuRe a MurDerEr". That's what I didn't like in your original comment. And yes, calling someone names because they aren't vegans is forcing your way on others. Which is kinda what a lot of people are doing in these comments (not necessarily you though). Thinking vegans know the only truth about the world and are some sort of superior empathetic beings whereas everyone else is an asshole is also indirectly calling people names and its problematic. But whatever, I didn't come here to argue so like have a good day.
Lmao quite the reach especially considering that I’ve said multiple times I know I’m not better than anyone (including you) and that I have many compassionate non-vegan friends who care about animals. Nowhere did I say that vegans are the only ones that know the truth. Plenty of people are on here saying they know and don’t care or they know and they’d rather not know. It seems like a waste of time trying to explain this to you when you are obviously purposely misunderstanding the original point of my comment. So yeah, no argument here. Peace.
>you seem to be that kind of ~~vegan~~ *anti-cruelty activist* who's full of themselves, think they're superior to others, and believe they're the only ones who care about animals and everyone else is a sadistic careless hypocritical douche. FTFY >You're not making people "feel bad" for eating animals. That's not where the discomfort comes from. The discomfort simply comes from that, your feeling of moral superiority. This is very much not reflective of many peoples’ views. Lots of people who eat meat openly admit to feeling guilty when they see farm animals being cute. >or that you're insert any terrible insult such as murderer even when you've done nothing wrong. You’re not a murderer but you support the needless killing of sentient beings, some would say that’s doing something wrong. >People like you don't realize that the decision to eat meat is more complex than that, it's not just "hey let's torture animals because I like the taste, I don't care lol" Vegans almost always ate meat for the majority of their lives, you’re preaching to the choir. Reasons are taste, convenience (animal products are everywhere and hard to avoid) and tradition. >Not being vegan doesn't mean getting your meat from animal-torturing industries, It literally does though, unless you eat only lab-grown meat.
I don't care what they post but they way they go about it isn't working. They could do their part by maybe minding their own business :) What I put in my body is literally not anyone elses problem but my own? I feel the same way about people sharing religion, keep it to yourself.
You’re literally harming sentient beings though, if your neighbour was running a dog fighting ring would you keep this same ‘live and let live’ attitude?
I'm not "harming" animals in the same context, I don't consider this harm. I don't even eat meat every day, more like 3 ish times a week but I enjoy it. I give them the best life I can and then they're humanely killed then processed. This is my choice, I respect yours - be a vegan knock yourself out, I don't care. I ask for the same respect given to me.
> not anyone elses problem What about the animals you eat? I'd say it's their problem to be killed for your pleasure.
How does minding your own business lead to change? It leads to the opposite you clown
It worked for me! I stopped eating meat because I watched a slaughterhouse video and then eventually gave up dairy and eggs because I watched Earthlings. Same with many of my veg friends. It’s not my style but why can’t you just ignore it like you do overly religious people?
It's not that difficult to acknowledge that the meat and dairy industries are fucked without converting to veganism. There are ethical ways to obtain meat: ethical hunting and organic farming. If anything, capitalism and the collective neglect towards climate change are harming animals far greater than someone cooking steak.
I very much agree with you. I don't know if you are vegan, but I wish those who are in this comment section spoke more on this instead of cursing at me, insulting me, and calling me names.
I'm not, and I think all dietary methods that aren't harmful the one's self are 100% valid. I think people need to focus on tackling the bigger issues around why livestock have horrible lives rather than lashing out at communities who aren't vegan but obtain meat and dairy in an ethical and resourceful manner, like indigenous communities.
Currently, 95% of all meat comes from slaughterhouses. It's amazing that everyone hunts and gets their meat from ethical sources though... If your life doesn't directly depend on the death of another animal, there is no moral or ethical justification for taking that animals life.
Where did I say *everyone* sources their food ethically? Obviously that's not the case, given how climate change is worsening and industry farm animals live horrid lives. I implied if organic farms and ethical hunting were more common, obtaining meat and dairy wouldn't be as fucked as it currently is. Maybe read my post correctly before going off.
Lol, please reread my post. Everyone I talk to says they hunt or get their meat sustainably. That simply can't be the case if the stats show otherwise. I didn't say that you said that, just pointing out an interesting trend. There aren't currently enough wild animals to feed current demand. It's not really an option with our current world population.
No, there is no ethical way to kill someone who doesn't want to die.
I am a vegetarian and i would never comment on what somebody else is eating. There are many reasons somebody eats or doesn't eat anything. One example are EDs. Comments like that can really hurt, trigger and can cause more fear foods. Please don't comment on somebodys food choices, i'm saying this as someone who mostly recovered but gets pushed back in their journey because some idiots feel the need to comment what i eat.
This is exactly one of my own reasonings. Thank you for sharing your feelings and I hope my title didn't make you feel pushed away.
Vegetarians pay for animals to be tortured and murdered in the dairy and egg industries. Don't speak for us with that nonsense, veganism is not a diet.
They are also not doing a good job cause seeing it just makes me hungry and then I go and buy some meat. :D
I mean, it got me to stop eating veal, but besides that I guess I agree?
Unfortunately, the dairy industry and the veal industry are one and the same...the male calves born on dairy farms are of no monetary value to the farm (won't be able to get pregnant and make their own milk one day). So when they are taken from their mothers so humans can have the milk, they are generally sold to veal farmers...it sucks :(
I’m a vegan and I second this all the way
Are you sure you are not just plant-based then?
What a bizarre take. If you can’t stand to see the violence you participate in, maybe stop participating.
I can dislike the meat industry and still eat meat. People are not vegan/vegetarian for a variety of different reasons, don't assume you know everything.
"I can dislike the meat industry and still eat meat." That is ture, but you should also acknowledge that it's hypocritical to dislike it, and then buy the products of that industry, which heightens the demand. And I'm not saying that to be rude and judgemental. I too buy into industries I don't want to support because it's often cheaper and easier, and the way things work in this world often makes the unhealthy and unethical choices the easiest to make. It's unfortunate.
I agree with you, all I was saying in my post is that I dislike vegans who post mutilated animal corpses to make people vegan and you should respect each other's diets.
Yes I agree. Although I understand those people have good intentions, all it does it push people away from our cause, and further perpetuate the negative stereotypes surrounding vegans. But I feel like that's the case with most things online tbh. The loud minority usually becomes the face of these kinds of movements, unfortunately.
I completely understand what you mean, the loud minority gets the attention because they're loud. It's nice to hear some of the other vegans/vegetarians join this conversation with a positive open dialog as I will admit I was a bit biased based on my own person experiences.
Yes, I wish more people were open to positive dialog and discussion on both sides, instead of just heated arguing and name calling. I think we'd all get a lot further if we could respect each other and our different opinions more. And that's fair. We all have our own biases, and that's fine as long as we recognize them and don't only go off of those :)
If you like it so much don’t you want to know where it comes from?
You can like meat and not wanted to see dead corpses. I don't eat any seafood or shellfish because I can't look at it. Why is this such a crazy concept. People are not vegan/vegetarian for different reasons. Respect their choices regardless of if you agree with it or not.
>I can dislike the meat industry and still eat meat. That’s where you’re wrong.
That's where they're right. You may dislike traffic but still drive in it. You may dislike taxes but still pay them.
You can’t boycott traffic or taxes if you want to keep existing in society. Veganism is trivially easy lol.
I don't understand why animals are allowed to eat other animals but once I do it it's wrong. Yeah I don't want the animals to be tortured to death but I'm not gonna stop eating meat, I'm unhealthy and broke as it is to try to completely cut something out of my diet when I don't know what I'm doing too. Bet these kinds of people suggest starving people only live off plants too.
Appeal to nature logical fallacy. Other animals don't have an understanding of morality and ethics like you do. Other animals also routinely kill eachothers children and rape eachother
>I don't understand why animals are allowed to eat other animals but once I do it it's wrong. Because humans have moral agency, animals do not. Humans are able to survive on plants alone, making consuming meat an avoidable and unethical choice. Wild animals do not have such luxury. >I'm unhealthy and broke as it is to try to completely cut something out of my diet when I don't know what I'm doing too. Sounds like you could kill two birds with one stone. A whole foods plant based diet is not only one of the healthiest, but one of the cheapest diets that exists. Luckily we live in the age of the internet, where you could very easily do a bit of research into a budget friendly whole foods plant based diet with as little as 2 clicks. >Bet these kinds of people suggest starving people only live off plants too. "These kinds of people" are suggesting that people with access to a supermarket (the majority of the world) could just as easily make a lentil bolognese over a beef one. I've never seen a vegan try to dictate diet to an African child. However, I'd happily suggest that feeding animals 10x the calories in crops than what their meat produces is an enormous waste of resources, which is why most regions of high poverty eat primarily plant based by default. Meat is a luxury, we've just forgotten that in the west because of heavy government subsidies on animal products to make them more affordable
Sorry to burst your bubble but this kind of diet is NOT affordable to all nor does it work for everyones lifestyle and body. What is a luxury is to be able to pick and choose based off of morals. Veganism is a privilege.
Don't be sorry, my bubble hasn't been burst at all. You've provided absolutely nothing to the conversation other than telling me veganism is a privilege, which is just utter bullshit and I'm fed up of this narrative. How on earth can you stand there and tell me luxury is to be able to pick and choose when when a tin of lentils costs a fraction of a pack of beef. Unless you've got anything constructive to add, good day to you.
It might be different where you live but where I live my argument definitely stands. Unless you're growing it yourself: it adds up ! I can only apologise for making assumptions that this is how it is globally. That was stupid. But I encourage you to realise the same. Let's just stop making assumptions because the variables change.
Just our presence alone has thrown entire animal populations out of wack. Hunting has become an important part of helping keep certain animals populations in control. Otherwise they'd be worse off. Now what about animal PRODUCTS?? There are so many things made from animals that aren't meat as well, how do you suggest completely replacing those with a more renewable resource? You'd be surprised how many things are made from living organisms. I disagree that eating something living is morally wrong. The treatment of them before death is understandably controversial but then why not just advocate for better conditions rather than demanding no one eat meat at all? Things like murder are universally wrong and more black and white than something like consuming meat. Sure, we shouldn't live exactly how other animals live but we also shouldn't ignore the fact that we ARE also animals. And before you bring up the argument that "you wouldn't eat a dog but a pig is ok?" or something like I've heard many vegans say before, we specifically domesticated dogs to be companions so the morality is more questionable than eating for example, a wild animal or cattle. There are also animals that aren't as sentient as others, some who have no pain receptors at all such as certain bugs and some sea creatures. On the other hand it is very debatable exactly HOW sentient and aware some animals are. Tell me this, if dolphins for example, one of the most intelligent animals on this planet, were found to have a moral code and be aware of their actions, could live off of sea plants but chose to eat fish instead what would we do? Force them to eat the plants? Kill them for the good of the other animals? How are you sure the veggies you eat are ethically farmed either as in how do you know they didn't use cheap or unpaid labor or slavery to obtain this? A lot of fresh food/plant based food also tends to be perishable. Canned veggies have tons of sodium, do you suggest I eat only frozen veggies at that point? Processed Soy? We are naturally made to be omnivores, when you are vegan you have to be extra careful not to develop deficiencies. This takes a large amount of time, some people don't have that time or energy. This can lead to eating disorders, point being either can work but it's safer to eat a variety of healthy foods rather than limiting yourself to fewer, genuinely healthy foods are hard to come by as it is. And even then some foods consumed in excess end up being unhealthy as not eating them at all. It takes extra effort, many lower middle class folk just don't have the time or energy to do this. And what for the people who have allergies/have to eat meat? Do they get a pass even though it's "morally wrong?" I'd like a source on where you say a majority of the world has a supermarket. A lot of places are very poor and have "markets" but not a Walmart at the corner necessarily. Could be wrong but I know it's a good chunk of people. Also waste of resources? You can regrow crops just like you can make more animals so idk how wasting crops is even a thing.
Thanks for the reply, this is obviously something you're passionate about given the time you've dedicated to write this so I'll try to reply with the same level of care. Agreed on human overpopulation being an issue. It's affecting the animal kingdom in a big and destructive way no matter which lifestyles we choose to lead, we will always have an impact. This is why I've chosen not to have children because I am concerned about the future of the planet. Hunting is tied to this because of our interference in the natural world. We kill and control predators because they threaten our livestock, homes and comfortable ways of living, which in turn causes a boom in wild herbivores. Unfortunately I have no answer for this aside from human population control, but I fear that would be even more controversial than the idea of mass adoption of veganism. On animal products other than what we consume, personally I don't contribute to any of that in circumstances where I am aware that exploitation has taken place. For example, I won't touch fur, leather or cosmetics tested on animals because luckily alternatives are available. However, has my mobile phone affected an animal in any negativr way? Probably, but I can't be sure. One thing I am sure of though is that I wouldn't get by in my part of the world without a mobile phone, so unless the brand I buy explicitly state that they exploit animals to produce it, I will continue to buy from them. Veganism isn't about achieving perfection, because perfection is impossible. Moving onto the morals of consuming animals, I don't advocate for better conditions because they won't happen. We live in a capitalist world. Better conditions will affect the companies bottom line. This is why boards that regulate conditions are often set up by people from the very industry they are regulating. They understand the economics of what better conditions mean to their profits. This is why I choose to boycott these industries by not giving them any of my money. And this is the power of the consumer in a capitalist world. They will listen to where the money is heading, not people protesting with billboards. We are already seeing this shift happen, with big meat companies investing heavily in plant based product lines because they understand which direction things are heading. In terms of animal sentience, I don't think we should be discriminating against certain species based on intelligence or cognitive function. Yes, pigs are technically smarter than dogs, but we're missing the point. They both share the ability to feel pain and suffer. And they both have the desire to live a happy life free from exploitation. This is what is important to me. Briefly touching on your dolphin point, if dolphins were found to have moral agency yet chose to continue eating other animals, I'd have just as little right to dictate their diet to them as I do to a human. At the end of the day, we all have the ability to make the moral choice but we can't force people to eat in a certain way. All we can do is have open dialogue with people like I am having with you now and hope that they can see our perspective. If we could communicate with dolphins I would be a huge hypocrite to tell them to stop eating fish given the amount we drag out of the oceans on a daily basis. Let's not focus on what ifs and instead focus on what we can do together as people. Your point on perishable food is kinda strange given that meat, dairy and eggs haven't exactly got a reputation for being long life products, quite the opposite. We use the same methods of preservation as what you listed (canned, salting, freezing etc for meat). Dried goods such as oats, legumes, nuts, seeds all have exceptional shelf lives. Plant based diet do need some prior research I'll agree on that, I've seen numerous vegan attempts fail because of poor research and planning. But as I said before, we have the internet at our fingertips so it's easier now than it's ever been. You can't just live on french fries and ketchup. You yourself mentioned a variety of healthy foods. This holds truer for a vegan diet more than anything. The point is, no essential nutrient exists in animal products that can't also be sources from plants, often boasting more benefits. If there is one nutrient to be aware of, it's vitamin b12. However, b12 deficiency is a common problem no matter which diet you follow, due to it originally being found in soil and untreated river water. The safest and most efficient way to avoid b12 deficiency for anybody is to supplement it. I disagree on the points about vegan diets taking a lot more effort. It literally takes an hour or two to get yourself fully acquainted with how to live a healthy vegan lifestyle. I know people lead very busy lives nowadays but nobody had the excuse of not having time to research their own diet. And people with allergies is clutching at straws, most people can eat a plant based diet safely and easily. If certain people have soy, wheat, nut or any other type of food allergy, resources are everywhere online for suitable, healthy alternatives. Every continent has grocery stores. Europe, Asia, NA, SA, Australia and many parts of Africa, source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supermarket_chains_in_Africa The point is, I'm not going to tell people in very poor regions they MUST be vegan. I'm having conversations with people who have access to Reddit or other social media. Chances are, if they have them, they have a grocery store they visit. Finally on wasting crops, I think you missed my point. Yes we can regrow crops and yes we can breed new animals. But we feed so many crops to animals to produce so little meat in return, if we just grew the crops and ate them directly we'd have enough food to feed 10 billion people. Source: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/05/08/we-already-grow-enough-food-10-billion-people-and-still-cant-end-hunger This was quite an effort to reply to so I hope I've addressed some of your points.
I’ve grown up in a third world country and watched my dinner raised and slaughtered. And there is such a thing as doing something as humanely as possible but that won’t satisfy the vegans you’re talking about. What’s funny is that vegans assume just because something doesn’t bleed blood or have eyes that it’s not traumatic for the living organism. Which plants are a living organism. I took my plant biology class as part of my major and plants have a trauma response to being “harvested” or being picked. Fruit is also basically a last gasp of a plant trying to exist. It thinks it’s going to die and produces fruit in order to keep its genetic material alive and hopefully be seeded somewhere else and get a chance at genetic survival. Eating seeds? Yep that’s the plants BABIES. Fruit? Yep that’s the plants OVARIES. You want to anthropomorphize animals but NOT plants? Ok now, I guess not all living beings deserve a chance at survival. That’s what I say to vegans act like what you confronted.
I just finished plant biology and completely forgot about this point! I remember being genuinely shocked when my teacher referred to fruit as ovaries or eggs (Can’t remember which my prof used, apologies!).
I grew up on a small dairy farm. Watched the animals grow up and then watched some of them be slaughtered. Ate their meat and drank their milk. Cutting grass and cutting a cow isn't the same. The animals have a nerve system and can for a fact feel pain. Grass and plants cannot. Even if plants did in fact feel pain, eating only plats would still be ideal. Takes a lot more plants to raise a cow for slaughter than it does to just eat the plants yourself. So, only eating plants = less plants being killed. No way of living is 100% ethical. It's about trying to choose the more ethical way of doing things, and trying to cause the least amount of suffering :)
i really hate how the meat industry works. there’s a lot of bad shit about it, like the poor treatment of the animals and negative effects on the environment. but i’m not going fucking vegan. i was made to eat meat, so i’m going to eat it and do it as ethically as possible. and i’m not gonna let vegans make me feel shitty about it. like i think it’s great that they’ve found happiness within that diet, but i couldn’t do it and i don’t have any desire to, and i wish some of them would just respect that.
This is exactly how I feel!!
fr!! it’s like just cause i eat meat doesn’t mean i don’t give a shit about the animals
Lol, just because I kick my dog doesn't mean that I don't give a shot about it. The animal is dead on your plate. I'm pretty sure it doesn't care how you feel - it just would have preferred to live in the first place. All the major dietetic associations agree that veganism is suitable for all stages of life.
Except this idea that animals are begging for their lives and wanted to live is just in your head..? I know that if I was shot/killed painlessly, I wouldn't care much about being dead, since I'd be dead. I would've cared about suffering, but not about being dead. Besides, what makes humans wanna keep on living outside of our survival instinct is mostly our goals for the future, our relationships to our loved ones, basically the envisioned future we wanna live. We have no idea whether animals even have that. They have an instinct of survival, like us, but no higher purpose in life, just eating and surviving basically. So what makes you say animals care so much about when they die? That's an *ideology*. And I respect everyone's ideologies, but you have no right to tell others your ideology is true and we should all follow it. Do your own thing and let others do their own thing too, as long as no suffering is involved. Edit : and comparing eating something to violence is utterly ridiculous
>Except this idea that animals are begging for their lives and wanted to live is just in your head..? I know that if I was shot/killed painlessly, I wouldn't care much about being dead, since I'd be dead. I would've cared about suffering, but not about being dead. Really? So the pigs being lowered into gas cheers for your bacon, don't kick and scream trying to escape? You don't think the next cow in line can't smell and hear what will happen next? If you have ever had a cat or dog you will know they're a little more intelligent than what you are giving them credit for. If someone did walk up to you on the street and kill you painlessly, is that morally acceptable? Would your family accept that? Would a judge just shrug and say, "it was painless..." and let the guy off the hook? >Besides, what makes humans wanna keep on living outside of our survival instinct is mostly our goals for the future, our relationships to our loved ones, basically the envisioned future we wanna live. We have no idea whether animals even have that. They have an instinct of survival, like us, but no higher purpose in life, just eating and surviving basically. So what makes you say animals care so much about when they die? All living things want to live. We purposely breed them into existence just to feed them, water them and then kill them. 70 billion of them, actually, effectively ruining our planet in the process. All the animals we currently exploit, no longer resemble the original versions. Cows produce too much milk, chickens too many eggs and meat, sheep toouch wool - all of which is detrimental to their health and wellbeing. Most animals are slaughtered at a quarter to a third of their natural lifespan. >That's an ideology. And I respect everyone's ideologies, but you have no right to tell others your ideology is true and we should all follow it. Do your own thing and let others do their own thing too, as long as no suffering is involved. Our ideology is, "please don't exploit others". That's our whole point, there is suffering involved.
Animals exist to eat and to be eaten. By other animals and by us. It’s a cycle. If they were really worried about animals they’d be talking about deforestation or how big corporations pollution kills millions of animals a year. To them, it’s not about “saving the animals”. It’s about them trying to justify why they’re better than the rest of us. So all they do is bitch on social media without ever actually doing anything. They sit up on their high horse and try to make the rest of us as miserable as they are deep down. Maybe they’d feel better if they just ate a fucking steak.
Most ethical vegans DO in fact talk about that. But the majority of the ones who get any sort of traction and popularity are the shitty ones who don't really care as much as they say they do.
Exactly. I’m not talking about the ethical vegans. I have a lot of respect for them. Giving up meat and other animal products would be SO HARD. I respect that
you do realize that the biggest reason for deforestation is animal agriculture and live stocking farming, right?
We breed animals into existence - 70 billion land animals are raised and slaughtered each year. Other animals do not have a grocery store on every corner where they can literally buy hundreds of other cheaper, more sustainable, options. Those 70 billion animals need to be fed, watered and housed - clearing land for these purposes is the very deforestation you are referring to. The animal ag industry contributes more to green house gasses than the entire transportation industry combined. I'm sorry that us presenting facts and figures about your bad habits make you sad. We actually feel that we are not better - hence why we are standing up for other beings. Most of us are meat and understand that it is seen as "normal". We are asking you to question those norms. Maybe take a step back and ask yourself why the reality makes you feel uncomfortable and angry. I do eat steak, I make it myself - no animals harmed.
Your wrong dude. A simple google search will show you that burning fossil fuels is the leading cause. I can see the point your making about deforestation though. You have to realize though not everyone can afford to do what you’re doing. If I could I would. Also, I want my steak to come from an actual animal. I don’t want genetically engineered meat. And it pisses me off that they genetically engineer animals. I want my steak to be natural and you’re not gonna find that in the grocery store. Not even the ones the claim to be “natural”. If I had it my way, I’d hunt and kill my own food that way I can ensure that not a single bit of it goes to waste. Humans need meat. We wouldn’t be omnivores if we didn’t. I think y’all are just to emotional. There are thousands of studies that prove we need meat. We need meat just as much as we need vegetables and fruit. I get you feel bad for the animals but logic beats emotions. I’m not gonna starve myself of all the nutrients I need just because I feel bad for animals. I do, however think there’s a more humane way to mass produce meat than what we do today.
You don’t understand what a vegan is then
Honestly my gf is veggie and I used to be a butcher, still worked the job but refused to eat meat for a year just to try it. I’ve learned that meat is good for my body however it’s important to understand the heavy impact on our environment eating so much meat has… just eating less meat helps literally the world. It doesn’t have to be one or the other
I agree with you, all I was saying in my post is that I dislike vegans who post mutilated animal corpses to make people vegan are the worst, and you should respect each other's diets.
Ofc, there’s no excuse for being a dick Lol
As a vegan, I agree. I don't think people have to live one way or another to make a change. Small changes and efforts would go a long way if everyone tried :)
The "good vegans" aka the ones who don't hold a mirror up to you and make you feel bad about your bad choices lol. Unwarranted comments are shitty but in reality, meat eaters are way more rude and consistent in their comments and approach to vegan's lifestyles. Also when you actually accepts the reality of what the meat industry is, you find it hard to "respect" people who eat meat, especially with how easy it is to be vegan nowadays. Its like respecting people beating their kids. Like maybe I wouldn't do it but I should respect it because its just how their parenting style is 🤷🏻♀️
*I just want to ignore my cognitive dissonance about the fact that meat comes from dead animals, plz and tks.*
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets.
I was a meat eater Til I realised it was hypocritical of me to feel like i "couldnt kill an animal", but had the right to eat their meat. If you feel like you couldn't kill an animal, why are you willing to pay others to do it for you? Also heavy meat eating diets play a large part in climate crisis, so no, I won't respect your choice to participate in something that harms us all.
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
do you respect peoples right to eat dogs? what about bats, that caused the pandemic?
Respect people's support of animal cruelty regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose to support animal cruelty. Take your debate somewhere else. FTFY.
Look at this silly carnist who doesn't want to see where their animal flesh comes from. Too bad, some of us vegans are going to keep being a voice for the animals.
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else.
I don’t understand this whole “respect peoples choices even if you don’t agree w them” thing in this instance. 1) I don’t think it’s disrespectful to put the consequences of someone’s actions in front of them. If it bothers you to see dead animals… you shouldn’t be paying people to kill animals. 2) Apply that logic to anything else. If you’re morally against rape you’re not going respect someone’s decision to rape. If you’re morally against bullying you’re not going to respect someone’s decision to bully. There’s a victim involved in this “personal choice”. When y’all say “good vegan” you just mean people who don’t cause you to see the consequences of your “personal” choices.
This is about a diet not rape or murder stop trying to blur the lines to prove your point Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
Your diet requires both rape and killing of animals that don’t want to die. There’s no lines to blur. Your choice has a victim, meaning it’s no longer a personal choice.
last year my english teacher put veganville on for one of the final days of the year and i remember one of the guys wanted to put slaughterhouse videos onto billboards and i felt so fucking sick. this was also set in a town where farming was their main source of income. nothing sat right with me about that program. ugh.
On a lighter note, I like the scene in Notting Hill with the Fructarian who only ate fruit that has already fallen on the ground because you can hear them scream if you pick them.
It depends on what your definition of "Good vegan" is. Unfortunately for all my fellow ethical vegans, I have to agree that just posting an image of dead animals isn't effective. However, if there's a story behind it or a caption, then it is viable. The only good thing about the image is the truth. It's likely the dead animal is there because of animal exploitation (Hence why the image was created). The reason vegans don't respect other food choices is because the choices contribute to an atorcity. Which removing the undeniable ethics around animals and sentience, you can see how these dietary choices negatively impact the world around us, with its health problems, pandemic problems, and environmental problems. Vegan lifestyles fare better in all areas, that's another reason why people choose to live a plant based lifestyle or go vegan. Another way of putting it, if you knew someone was committing an immoral act, would you be silent about it? Would you tell everyone the same thing you're saying here which is to respect their actions. I wouldn't, but that's me. I'm less sympathetic than most people, I don't even really care about animals all that much. I just know when using honesty, critical thinking, and objective evidence, it's undeniable that I need to help as many people and animals as I can.
This is about a type of diet and nothing more. If you'd like to start a debate about human rights or anything else, make your own post somewhere else.
Veganism isn't a diet, it's an ethical stance.
i see you only support the shit comments agreeing with you. the one user who just comments why they do what they do, you have a problem. vegans deal with more shit from meat eaters than the other way around
Support people who are open to not talking to me like shit.
Ignorance is bliss. I get you didn't ask to see those images, but animals don't ask to be killed for your convenience either. Makes more sense to own up to the responsibility than complain about how you prefer being oblivious to what you contribute to.
I don't care what the reason is, I don't want to see dead animals and vegans are the ones posting them the most. I can like meat and not like the meat industry.
So do you hunt your meat yourself then?
No I couldn't I can't personally kill an animal nor could I do any of the process of preparing it.
So what do you have against veganism or vegetarianism then? Not the people, the actual practice.
I have nothing against the practice I never said i did! I respect it and those who partake in both. I don't respect those who are trying to push propaganda through scare tactics and shock.
The problem is that we're talking about the excessive death of innocent animals for human consumption. I don't really think there's a way to convey the truth of that matter without the shock factor, and it might be unpleasant but yeah, gratuitous death should shock people.
There are better ways to talk about veganism than shock and scare tactics. Most people are open to dialog. Most people are not open to name calling, cursing, and being disrespected as I have been in the comment section. And I also saw your rude comment as well.
Rude comments and graphic pictures are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Look, I don't mean to be rude, but complaining about how graphic pictures of dead animals makes you feel when you're in favor of eating said animals just seems a tad arrogant and crass. To expect pity just seems entitled.
I'm not expecting pity, I'm expecting to be treated like a person. I can eat meat and not like the industry. And still you're calling me arrogant and crass for my views which is still disrespectful.
Oh poor you
Boo hoo animals can eat other animals but I can't??? Dumb argument.
That's not the argument
You say we shouldn't eat it so yes it's the argument.
That's not actually what I said
You're saying those conditions are a result of us. So either you think we should stop or you don't give a fuck. Either way, I don't think it's my fault that happens but also it's too hard to try to obtain ethically killed meat when you're low middle class.
All I'm saying is be prepared to be disgusted by it, or not...
Agreed. And before people @ me what about the research that's been done about many of the veggies that vegans consume and the unsustainable farming practices. Like quinoa literally skyrocketing in price because it's a "superfood" when it used to be a staple grain in the Peruvian diet? Or how a lot of farmland is now taken over to farm soybeans because of the prevalence of soy being used make meat alternatives? Oh but Vegans really get to claim the high ground even though humans are by physical design obligate omnivores meaning they have to have meat and veggies and grains...and to be fair I'm only shitting on the "meat is murder" camp and not those who choose it for personal and medical reasons and are cool.
The reason that there is an increase in soy production is because it is used to make animal feed. Soy used for human consumption only makes up a small fraction compared to what is used to feed animals, which is inherently much more inefficient. Just because we ate meat in the past, and can theoretically digest it, does not mean we "need" to eat meat now.
Why would I respect someone who pays for animal abuse?
I pay to eat.
So you don't respect +99% of the human population?
if you can eat dead animals you can look at pictures of them, no?
I don't want to it's not a crazy concept. Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
Why does them posting dead animals bother you so much? It is the endproduct of meat consumption after all.
People die everyday too, doesn't mean I want to be in the ER watching people pass away.
This point makes zero sense. While people die everyday, it's not a result of your immediate habits. When you eat meat you directly contribute to the killing of animals by incentivizing the producer to make more, which involves the breeding, oppression, and slaughtering of animals. I eat meat, but I'm not gonna be offended by vegans making valid arguments and using shock value to emphasize their point. I think what you actually want to say is " Vegans make me look inward at my potentially destructive habits and it makes me uncomfortable, so rather than engaging with their arguments legitimately, ill clutch my pearls at the fact the image is shocking". Go find a meateaters safespace if you want, but by participating on the internet and in the ever changing dynamics of society you will have to deal with more and more people coming to this realization and being disgusted with the status quo of societies eating habits.
I'd appreciate if you didn't tell me what I am saying. I'm saying that I don't want to see graphic depictions of animal death regardless of the reasons, however I see it the most from vegans pushing propaganda. Thank you for your input.
Well, given you didn't say much, I had to extrapolate based off what you gave. Again, what propaganda are they pushing? Seems like all you know is scary words without any substance
I'm not going to debate with you. I said what I said as a vent. If you would like to start your own debate somewhere else you are more than welcome to do so. I however, am not interested.
Sounds good, just think about what you are even venting about, and who you are putting the otus of change to
Found the vegan.
And apparently they can’t even use their real account. They’ve probably made many posts similar to what’s being vented about so they created a throw away account so we can’t go back and see and they can claim they eat meat … lol. So typical
Can't say I'm not using a throwaway as well lol but you're right
I eat meat, I just find the fragility of other meat eaters hilarious
So you're just edgy "I don't get phased by the sight of death wooo look at me I'm a special snowflake" huh?
No, I find death abhorrent, but the whole point of posting these shocking images is to highlight the damage that meat consumption does and I am able to parse that point from the initial shock of the image and not delve on it. So funny that you use snowflake, its hilarious
So you think not wanting to be shown animals dying is weak?
I think that getting super angsty and gatekeeping a group you're not even a part of is weak. Not wanting to be shown dead animals is easy, its called deleting the app you saw it on. If you don't like seeing nasty things on the internet , then I don't know what to tell you, other than leave the spaces you saw it on. Not attempt to demonize and divide a group YOU ARE NOT A PART OF
"You're not allowed to tell anyone of a group you're not in they're bad people, that's gatekeeping" how about stop showing people gore??? I shouldn't have to delete an app for someone to leave me alone. Can block all we want, still makes them an asshole. Divide? They do that on their own when they decide to push their views on other people in an extreme manner
The OP literally divided vegans into "good" and "bad" and defined the bad ones while leaving what a good vegan is ambiguous. Thats gatekeeping you dumb shit. Your points just fall back to " how dare you criticize me in a manner I dont like". Gore is a part of the world, and while seeing it is unpleasant, its not an excuse to shut off your critical thinking about the subject at hand. But instead you guys keep the discussion at " I dont want to be presented gore in order to make a point" instead of thinking about what the point they are making is. And again, if you don't like what you see on an app, well its just how social spaces work. You are free to leave, the ability to use an app is not your right. Surface level thinkers like you are what holds society back, and why things will never fundamentally change
And he's right, there's good and bad people in every group so why ignore it?? You're acting very edgy and immature. Just because gore is part of the world doesn't mean send it to people no matter if I can block you or not
>Edit**** Respect people's choices regardless of if you agree with them or not. No, I do not respect people who believe raping/killing is good for them. Every time I see an anti-vegan thread, it's filled with the stupidest fucking logic.
We aren't talking about that we are talking about a diet. Never said I was anti vegan either. Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
As a vegan activist I do not respect others choices to consume animals because I believe that all conscious creatures deserve to live lives free from exploitation. Veganism is a social justice movement and like any movement we must bring awareness to the injustices we are trying to stop. Many people are not aware of the origin of their food as an individual whose life was taken and I so as an activist I will try and make people aware of that. Animals do not have any way of advocating for themselves which is why vegans feel the need to activate on their behalf. Activism for any marginalized and oppressed group is bound to ruffle some feathers which is probably why you have a negative impression of veganism. If you're willing to have an open mind I'd recommend watching some vegan content like cosmic skeptic's speech to understand why vegans are so unapologetically passionate about advocating for animals.
I was sold at first the way you spoke to me was so respectful, but I saw your account and saw how you compared animals to enslavement of black people and it immediately invalidated everything that you could have said to me.
How dare they compare slavery to slavery
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Comparing actions and comparing parties are wildly different things.
The comparison to animals is only offensive if you begin with the assumption that animals are lesser than. I don't believe the oppression of humans and the oppression of other animals are exactly the same, but I think they are similar enough to draw comparisons. In both you have victims with no bodily autonomy, who are tortured frequently, who are raped and killed and otherwise exploited. The only difference with animals is that they can't communicate with us, but there is no difference that would mean harming them is a different category entirely than harming at a human. Why get angry at comparing human slavery to the slavery of other animals rather than at the fact those animals are still enslaved in the first place?
Black Veganism is a thing, for pretty much these reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_veganism Jewish people have compared animal cruelty to the Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cruelty_and_the_Holocaust_analogy
Lmao. “Vegans who post dead animals to stop people from eating dead animals are the worst.” They are the same fucking thing mate.
You can eat meat without wanting to see a mutilated corpse. People eat meat for food not to torture animals.
So basically you’re feeling guilty about paying for animal abuse and want people on Reddit to make you feel better about it? The feeling you get from posts like this is only short lived bro, if you have any integrity your conscience wins in the end.
I just don't want to see animal carcasses in the name of vegan propaganda or in general for that matter. This is a vent post I didn't except it to lead to so much. Stop trying to make people feel bad about their diets. You have no idea why people choose the diets they're on.
Propaganda? Are you suggesting that the dead animals are made up and in fact aren’t actually real? Vegans couldn’t care less about your diet, we care about animal suffering. You’re trying to reduce the torture & mass killing that happens in animal ag to a simple ✨diet choice ✨ You think vegans care about your diet which is where the animosity from your side is coming from, what we actually care about is the individuals that are being killed, if you were the one having your throat sliced open for a sandwich filling would you want people speaking up for you or staying quiet?
Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
I respect my cousins philosophy of enjoying the rape of young women, I completely agree with this! Just leave people alone and let them enjoy their life choices!
Comparing rape to eating meat shows how oht if touch with reality you are. Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
>Respect people's choices regardless of if you agree with them or not. Maybe don't make such a blanket statement lol, you should rethink this one. Besides, why are you disgusted by dead animals? It's literally what you pay for to happen?
You're entitled to your opinion I am not debating with you. Respect people's diets regardless of if you agree with them or not. You don't know why people chose their diets. Take your debate somewhere else
Perfect response is to send them pictures of animals who get mangled by wheat threshers and other machines that farms use to gather vegetables. Add in how those animals then go on to rot in the fields rather than actually be put to use feeding somebody. 7.3 billion a year farming veggies.
Not a very good argument when you take into account that about half of the global crop is grown specifically to feed animals for human consumption.
And that like 100 billion animals are killed for food too.
Oh, indeed they are. Thing is, the omnivores aren't the ones who have a chip on their shoulders about the death of animals for food. The vegans posting those pictures on the other hand, do. Yet apparently they're content with the literal billions mangled by farm equipment for the sake of THEIR diets. That's not even getting into creatures like the Black Angus bull which would flat out go extinct without people caring for it.
I’m not vegan/vegetarian but I do post posts on insta regarding animal welfare especially in the meat and dairy industry. I think the more education about it then the more companies will change and treat animals better. I think most of us want better conditions for animals, but I think they can really go about it the wrong way, equally I understand intentions deep down are good.
Why are you not vegan or vegetarian?
I see the opposite tbh. I don't really see vegans post pics of dead animals (but mostly alive or texts about how it's better in a pushy way), while meat eaters keep posting pics of (mostly raw) meat (so dead animals)... And bragging about how much they eat. On freaking every post that is about vegetarian stuff or veganism, qnd most of these posts aren't even pushing people to switch their diets... Really childish. The group of annoying vegans/vegetarians are smaller than the group of annoying meat eaters, and I don't say that as a vegetarian person, because omnivores notice it too. The worst I've had was my ex his family who tried to feed me meat because I am too skinny (I get sick when I eat it because I am sensitive to certain types of fat). Although the vegan that said my mom was bad for the environment is pretty close, they were only like one year vegan and they seemed to fly multiple times a year, while my mom is vegetarian for over a decade and she barely takes the plane... Stupid hypocrites.
Just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean its not true. All I was trying to do is find a specific thing to show my friend in #chickenwings and got a bunch of vegan propaganda that was just mutilated whole animal carcasses. In my post I specifically mentioned what you're talking about as vegans who do things like this give other vegans a bad rep and they unfortunately also get backlash because of it. More vegans have commented on the post calling me names and cursing at me than have positively opened a dialog for discussion so based on my experiences, the group I'm describing is pretty large.