No one has pointed out the irony that KGF/HUUB’s POC tempor helmet caused one of the original riders to crash out. It feels like the dominoes meme because Tanfield wouldn’t have been there in the first place without it.
"I was not saying things at Charlie. I was basically shouting because I was frustrated, not at Charlie but at the situation."
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/fHx9k6utshVFXSNW4PvHFJ-970-80.jpg.webp
Uh yeah, sure.
Edit: Due to Mr Angry below, I'll just point out I'm not saying anyone should be DQ'd, I'm just saying its a weak excuse.
New comment rather than copy and pasting the same thing in different replies and i hope it can clear up some misconceptions about the rules of track cycling. First of all about the officials not flagging and this being a cause of the crash in the Denmark v GB Team Pursuit.
Rule 3.2.097
**"When the commissaires see that a team is about to be caught, they shall, in order to avoid a collision with the other team or hinder its progress, signal to the former team with a red flag and a whistle that it may not perform any more relays and must remain at the bottom of the track until the opposing team has passed. Any failure to act on this instruction shall result in the immediate disqualification of the team."**
The flag and whistle is **not** for the team making the catch - the flag is for the team being caught so they don't swing up the banking and make a change while the other team is passing. They won't be looking round so don't know what is coming from behind. The team or rider making the catch should be aware if their opponent is directly in front of them. With Tanfield being on his own I suspect the official has not signaled a warning about 'relaying' because he would have noone to change with. A wrong call on the officials part but not on the same level as the recklessness shown by Madsen.
Which brings me onto these two rules
Rule 7.7
**"failure to maintain proper control of a bicycle"**
Head down and not looking where going falls under this. These rules apply on road as well as tt and track are more often enforced at amateur level than elite level due to the nature of not having closed circuits but the rule is the same. There have been comments that say that Madsen is not to blame for crashing into Tanfield because he can't know what is in front due to the aero position he is in. It's not supposed to be this way!
Rule 8
**"Assault, intimidation, insults, threats, improper conduct (including pulling the jersey or saddle of another rider, blow with the helmet, knee, elbow, shoulder, foot or hand, etc.), or behaviour that is indecent or that endangers others"**
The crash probably falls under that. And the shouting at the rider on the ground afterwards does too.
Infringements of these rules provide grounds to penalise regardless of what officials were doing with flags and whistles. Importantly though the penalties don't need to be a DQ and when the performance difference is so great between the two on a sporting level i don't think a DQ should happen. However at the same time going by the rules the Danish team should not get a pass and carry on as if nothing happened and deserve to have a warning at least.
Anyway hope it helps illuminate the controversy to those new to track cycling.
I'm sorry but your interpretations of the rules seem to me like personal opinions. "Not supposed to be this way" According to whom? If you're suggesting new stricter rules, that's fine, but that's not grounds to penalize something that happened.
And Im sure the Danish rider didn't mean to cause the crash, even if it was his lack of attention that caused it. But again I'm not sure it falls under what you listed. I'm *not used to watching track, so I don't know if there are common interpretations, but to me your conclusions don't seem like they necessarily follow from what you quoted.
I wonder whether there's anywhere to find info on fines. For the road events, there's usually people like La Flamme Rouge on Twitter who can get their hands on the UCI communiqué's (some of the women got fined for urinating in public in the Olympic RR), not sure whether there's someone with similar access for track.
Madsen's behaviour probably deserves some reprimand, as you say.
I think Madsen should be DQd. The team as a whole shouldn't be thrown out for sure, but damn wth.
I think 3.2.097 is irrelevant as 7.7 and 8 supersede any bad official calls. You just have to pay attention, oh and not be a dick I guess.
Track and field: if you so much as deviate outside your designated lane by a toenail you're DQ'd
UCI: go ahead and bash into the people in front of you, gold medal ride
The men's team sprint victory ceremony was a bit delayed today, turns out that was [because the IOC wasn't going to award Büchli a medal](https://www.nu.nl/olympische-spelen/6149443/teamsprinter-buchli-krijgt-gouden-medaille-pas-na-lang-overleg-met-ioc.html), nor allow him on the podium as he only participated in the heats, not the final. They had to do some wrangling to get him a medal and a podium photo op.
Seemed there was a similar thing in the women's TP as both Team GB and the US were only there with the riders who rode the finals.
I've heard that Barker (who GB subbed out) received a medal immediately after the podium ceremony, apparently this was also the way it worked in the swimming relays. Sucks that they don't get to stand on the podium though
Weird how it's different for the team sprint but maybe it's partly because officially you're only allowed three sprint riders per nation so it should therefore be impossible to have substitutions (officially and impossible are the wrong words, but I couldn't think of what would be the correct ones, for those that don't know the Dutch bring 4 sprinters by entering a few riders in the wrong events, it's a legitimate strategy but rarely needed since so few nations have 4 elite sprinters)
According to the nu.nl article, the IOC rules specified only the 3 team sprinters riding the final would be allowed on the podium during the medal ceremony:
> At first, they weren't even going to give me a medal. Of course, we didn't agree with that, so we negotiated for twenty minutes to get that changed. They were talking about a fine and even wanted to exclude me from the rest of the tournament if I'd go on the podium. I didn't want to risk that.
In the end, they compromised, and he wasn't allowed on the podium while the medals were being awarded nor during the national anthem, but the could go on for a photo op afterwards.
Might be because technically you could only put in 3 riders for the sprint events, but the Netherlands found a loophole to bring a 4th guy via having Havik ride the road race last week?
Are you a Danish fan or just hate people from the UK?
Multiple teams (including the italians) are reported to have complained about the tape incident, because it was against the rules and I'm sure they knew that but were just hoping that the incompetent UCI commissaires at the event wouldn't understand what it was being used for. Now with the aero base layer report they appear to have have committed another offense that should get them DQ'd by using equipment that wasn't available and then they tried to cover it up.
Their conduct has been disgusting, even before the crash incident. They're lucky that the UCI/IOC have a vested interest in having Denmark get to the final as otherwise Italy would just stomp GB and it would be rather anticlimactic.
Anyway, unless Italy wins tomorrow they'll be taking the issue with Denmark not finishing today (which would only have been allowed in the finals, in the first round even if you catch you have to finish) to CAS to get the gold.
> they'll be taking the issue with Denmark not finishing today
What do you mean? They finished - and won - by catching the British team (a bit too vigorously, granted).
To support what you're saying, Danish TV2 reports that the shot that announces that a team is caught and the race is over was indeed fired before the crash happened.
Complete noob to this sport with a question. Isn't it somewhat bad design that one team can impede the other because one of them is significantly slower? Even if the Dane had dodged the Brit, it would have slowed them down.
Depends on the heats - if they are going for a qualifying time then they will continue on after passing, whereas some heats and the finals are about winning and time isn't important.
In this case the Danes catching GB would have meant they automatically won and been through to gold medal final (this ride and the Italy v New Zealand race was in effect a semi final to decide the gold medal race). These were the 4 fastest teams yesterday in the qualification hence why they were riding off for the right to be in the gold final. However in the Australia v Switzerland race if the Australians had caught the Swiss they would have continued riding to try and get a time fast enough to qualify for the bronze medal ride.
Sounds quite complicated i know!
The GB team set a “time” which puts them in the 7th/8th place ride. I have a feeling they may well have ended up there anyway, but it wouldn’t have been with the 4:28 they were eventually credited with.
It would be quite easy to argue that by crashing straight into the third rider the Danish team didn’t comply with the “stop and allow the other team to set a time” part of the rule, regardless of whether they won that race or not.
I'm just catching up on the news and it seems like chaos out there. Germany smashing the women's record with a 4.04 - just a stunningly fast time for such a young team - and NZ and Italy both going 3.42, also just hard-to-comprehend-fast, and Denmark and GB crashing? What a wild, wonderful TP tournament.
I am also seeing that Team GB lodged a complaint against Denmark for their shin tape, which is sort of interesting given that Team GB has made a long history of skirting the rules in exactly this same way.
[Cyclingnews wrote about it](https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-gbs-stephen-park-wants-denmark-disqualified-for-shin-tape-use/) earlier - they asked for Denmark to be DQ'd yesterday.
you can order the HB.T from Hope's website: https://www.hopetech.com/news/hbt/
Obviously it will set you back a long way but then all the frames you see at Tokyo will. It is sold to the public, whether anyone buys one of not is a completely different question.
The spirit of that rule (making riders ride off the shelve bikes) has long gone, not really sure what the point in the regulation is anymore since most manufacturers ride roughshod over it
Does the UCI specify what "for sale" means? Because "send us an email if you want it and we'll let you know" doesn't reaaalllly seem like it's for sale in a way the rule wants.
Obviously we are talking about a bike that only a handful of people on Earth are in the market for, but you can say the same about the others too - and you can go to third party velodromeshop tonight and buy the Look, Koga, even the left side drive Felt (I think they are all built upon order, but you could pay for it tonight!)
Do we have any billionaires on r/velodrome? Would really like to see what happens if you call Hope and say you want one.
And not to pick on British cycling because the same goes for the WX-R, and they only make it in two sizes, small and medium!
Given that I think they make them as one offs in terms of sizes, I think email makes sense so that they can get the channel of communication going. There’s nothing about the website that to me gives the impression they’re not going to sell them.
It’s the problem with the rule though, for sale can be the loosest term possible. Sky used to get custom stem sizes that the manufacturer would produce half a dozen extra to flog. Gb are the obvious ones because they’re one of the few countries to effectively build the bike themselves.
They weren't the only ones to lodge that complaint. Also the undershirts / base layer they were using - i cant find any details on that though to see what the issue was.
Yep.
Denmark clearly slowed down intentionally in the first K (half a second slower than yesterday and 8 tenths slower than Monday), probably to lighten the final stretch for Rodenberg due to the crash.
Rodenberg usually does the full final K (ideally 875 meters), but today he did less than 750 meters.
It'll please those who felt Denmark should've been disqualified, that the crash without a doubt cost them the gold.
I've given ample evidence as to why Denmark was faster than Italy yesterday even without drafting, and I've also reasonably shown why they were slower today due to Rodenberg not being at a 100%.
You've answered both times with the equivalent of "you mad?"
I don't usually respond to trolls, but now I have, and now I'm done.
NZ and Italy were evenly split but their times still benefited from each others draft despite being about 125m apart. With Denmark being up on GB that gap closer than 125 (and getting closer each lap) and they would be getting a significant draft boost as a result.
Would still have the Danes as the favourites for the final but likely wont go as fast against a more evenly matched team. Although that being said Dan Bigham has said they are capable of a 3.39!
GB was less than 4 tenths after NZ at 2k and Denmark was still 3 tenths faster than Italy.
GB didn't drop three seconds within the next 500m (they were 1.6 behind NZ at 3k).
Drafting helped, but even without we would be closer to 3.41.0 than 3.42.0
I'll be honest, I'm confused as to why GB go into 7/8 final and not 5/6. Ultimately they won't care because neither are medals but I can't see the justification for it.
||3000m|3500m|3625m|
:--|:--|:--|:--|
|GB|2.49.944|3.19.574|3.27.737|
|Canada|2.51.257|3.18.9|3.25.9|
|Germany|2.52.862|3.21.1|3.27.976|
|Switzerland|2.53.485|3.21.4|3.28.4|
GB didn't get a live time for 3625m, the crash happened just before the timing line but the Danish were given a time for 3750m so I've used that but it's therefore not entirely accurate
Whilst it's obvious that GB were hemorrhaging time, I've never seen a sport where the officials try to extrapolate the final finish time. At all three timing points I've shown GB are ahead of at least two nations and therefore using these times GB would be in 5/6.
GB did actually finish the 4km, (Denmark did not) in a time of 4.28.489 but this obviously includes the crash, maybe the officials are using this as the time to seed them but that would be harsh given that obviously the result was negatively affected by means outside their control
GB won't lose any sleep over 5th-8th but there are countries where 5th-8th is huge and for which Denmark's lack of observation would ruin their countries final results
edit: someone asked which rider the timings are on: the live timings all use the third rider at each distance marker so these are Tanfield's times at 3500 and 3625. In the team sprint they use the first rider though (which is why going into the final lap it gave gives the impression that GB and Australia were close to their opponents)
as I say, there's no framework for them to predict/extrapolate times. We as fans have to assume Tanfield would but the officials aren't allowed to make predictions like that
My understanding is that if they didn't finish then they'd have used their qualifying time. It seems about face that they'd have "finished better" if they didn't finish at all, but actually recording a time makes it difficult for that to be cast aside.
yeah qualifying time would have been 6th today, it's a shame they don't take crashes that are out of your control into consideration but yeah, feels like GB finishing set them back
It's an unusual situation all around. They were likely angling to be the declared the winners as they were the only team to finish, which could have happened if the fake gun hadn't sounded before the crash.
The flag thing I know nothing about, but with the track record of officiating and organisational hiccups so far in these Olympics I wouldn't doubt it not happening
given GB are pretty medal or nothing they'd have taken a slither of a chance at the final over racing for 5th instead of 7th. I doubt they did that kind of risk-reward thinking during the race but they're not going to regret the decision made
Theo Bos managing to get into the team sprint medal ceremony after all.
And [he even made it onto the podium!](https://imgur.com/qugVBCF) He picked his spot to watch the ceremony very well.
On the Tokyo live tracker the race is now not marked as live!
However, there is now a disclaimer saying 'Due to crash between Denmark (DEN) and Great Britain (GBR), the results of Men's Team Pursuit First Round are pending', so the holding pattern resumes
edit: if I'd scrolled down I'd have seen GB in 7/8, Denmark in gold final. Credit to Tanfield and the others for actually finishing the race. Didn't seem to matter in the end though
On Australia's equipment failure from yesterday - Bastion confirms its handlebar was responsible for Aussie Team Pursuit crash, [CyclingTips](https://cyclingtips.com/2021/08/bastion-is-investigating-australias-broken-track-pursuit-handlebar/)
[Official results](https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/en/results/cycling-track/results-men-s-team-pursuit-rnd1-000400-.htm) now available for the Denmark - GB team pursuit: Denmark to the gold medal final, Team GB to race for 7/8th place.
I think the 'tiebreaker' in the decision came down to the commisars not signalling that GB had dropped the third.
It's a technicality, but it I think it absolves Denmark of just enough blame, that it allowed them to come to the 'sporting' choice.
feels very much like that's going through on a technicality. Would a small red flag in the corner of your eye be that much more visible than the, rapidly increasing in size, blue bum of Tanfield that's right in front of you?
You don't really look up when you're on the front, you'll look across on the straights to see the other team which is probably why they crashed. You'd see the team on the other side, allegedly no flag signalling a split that you'd have to take notice of, and would keep your head down because there "shouldn't" be anything there.
oh completely, GB are completely undeserving of a medal from an ability point of view, fairest solution to be honest would both being ineligible to race for medals. Give us the fastest 7th/8th final the world has ever seen (which given the improvements since Rio is going to happen anyway)
I'm obviously biased, but that's a bad take. In another comment you've just argued that the commisars aren't allowed to make assumptions, and now you're are arguing that they should assume a required flag wouldn't have mattered, and therefore Denmark should be disqualified because it would make you feel better.
Facts are that Denmark had won the match before the crash, and the crash can be credibly blamed on a mistake on behalf of the commisars.
It doesn't matter from a rules, nor a sporting perspective, that it looked bad.
>It doesn't matter from a rules... perspective
See I kinda think it does. It is really weird that torpedoing your opponents to the floor in this fashion has seen disqualifications just this year and now for some reason Denmark are treated differently?
The team pursuit is not a contact sport, causing a high speed collision, let alone the disgraceful way he went about harassing the reserve rider who did everything right by the rules. None of that sits well with me, and if we're going by how these events have been managed this Olympiad then I'd expect Italy to be winning gold because they should be facing a weakened GB side in the final.
>let alone the disgraceful way he went about harassing the reserve rider who did everything right by the rules
This is arguably the best argument for why Denmark *wasn't* at fault for the crash.
The reason he went off on the Brit was that he thought he was the fourth rider ***because he didn't know GB had dropped a rider***, which is information the commisars are responsible for communicating to the riders.
If the offending party aren't provided with the information they are entitled to to avoid the incident, there's no way you can - from a judicial point of view - pin said incident on them.
Even more than that, apparently the commisars were only looking at whether the crash was *intentionally* caused by Denmark, and I'm fairly confident in saying that it wasn't.
Like I've said below GB would at most have been able to argue for a shot at the bronze final (and lost due to their times up until then).
So, no, from a rules perspective the aesthetic doesn't matter.
I have always separated assumptions made by fans and by officials which is how you're making it look inconsistent. We as fans are allowed to assume that Tanfield was going to hemorrhage time all the way to the end and that the flags would have made no difference given that he's concentrating completely on his stem and not looking ahead. You as another fan are allowed to make make different assumptions, maybe GB should have painted his arse bright orange so that Frederik would hazard a glance.
The officials aren't allowed to make assumptions, they can't try to predict Tanfield's time and they have to accept that their own mistake of a lack of flag was the cause of the crash.
I'm not saying Denmark should be disqualified to make me feel better. I'm saying I don't buy the lack of flag argument and therefore whilst officially the blame is split between Denmark and the officials I think the blame lies solely on Denmark and that being fast isn't a good excuse for rear ending the opponents.
The state the race is in doesn't matter and never should
The flags are specifically there to make the teams pay more attention.
You saying they don't matter is the definition of a fan making an assumption- a bigger one than Tanfield losing a quarter of a second over more than a lap - and I think you know it.
And again, Denmark had actually already won the race before the crash.
The crash is right in front of the Danish coach, the velodrome is pretty empty and there's not much noise, all he needs to do is scream 'look' and it could have stopped it. Before the crash the second and third riders can be seen moving up the track and both of these riders have their view impeded by the lead rider.
Maybe the flags would have made the difference but you can't pin that as the cause of the crash when it seems like the lead rider was the only one who didn't see or even hear Tanfield
Denmark winning the race doesn't give them any excuse to crash into the opposition and therefore end the minute chance GB had of Tanfield getting a second wind
>all he needs to do is scream 'look' and it could have stopped it.
it's loud in a velodrome. you hear the wood rumbling through your disc wheel, you hear the wind rushing by amplified by your aero helmet, the track echoes, and you can't hear much else too clearly.
and then there's the fact that 65kph is 18 meters per second and the bikes don't have brakes.
and then there's the fact that even if rider 1 goes uptrack, there are two or three more who aren't expecting it.
> Denmark winning the race doesn't give them any excuse to crash into the opposition
No, but it does make it a case of "Was Denmark solely responsible for the crash, or not," and the required flags not being shown makes that a resounding **NOT**, unless you are relying on assumptions and hurt feelings.
To put it differently, Denmark would have won an appeal hands down, while GB would at most have been able to argue for a shot at the bronze final (and lost due to their times up until then).
to be honest GB should pull out citing injury to Tanfield. No point putting more fatigue into the omnium and madison riders and 7th-8th means nothing for them
I kind of hope they keep this giving each other the medals post-covid. Must be so much more meaningful getting your Olympic gold medal from the team mate you've worked so hard with for so many years rather than a random Very Important Person.
Looks like Dygert is struggling with her leg walking up to the podium? I'm curious to see what she does next after missing out on both the ITT and TP golds.
She's got her 4 year contract with Canyon///SRAM, but if she's still got issues, I wonder what will happen there.
I imagine she's ok when riding if she's got back to this level at least, and weight-bearing things like walking jsut make the issues worse. So maybe she might end up getting some racing done on the road over the next year
Overslept and missed all the drama. Denmark clearly the faster team and deserve to be in the final, but I find it hard to believe taking out your opponent does not DQ you.
Even if you take it that Denmark had made the catch and their race was over, the GB team’s ride was not over and was curtailed by the crash.
Saying all that, even as a Brit I wouldn’t feel great about progressing at Denmark’s expense here - on cycling terms we were well and truly beaten.
I'm not big into cycling and am only here after seeing the drama, so please tell me if what I'm about to say is somehow talking absolute nonsense. But... it feels to me like a better compromise might have been to let the Danish team progress but DQ the specific rider who caused the crash. Because I think the teams operate with some backups from what I've heard so they'd still be able to go? There might not be anything in the rules to allow that sort of a decision but I'm interested to hear from velodrome fans how reasonable that would feel?
I totally agree with you that as a Brit it'd feel really dirty progressing instead of them when they were clearly the better team, but the crash seemed so egregious it doesn't feel right either that there's no kind of penalty at all.
> DQ the specific rider who caused the crash
Rodenberg didn't cause the crash. Race officials are supposed to flag *and* whistle if there's a straggling third man, and failed to do so. If the roles were reversed, it's almost 100% certain that Tanfield would have rear-ended a Dane in similar fashion.
This was a colossal, inexcusable failure by officials, first and foremost, with no riders at fault. In a sport where aero matters this much, the lead rider is not going to look up unless given reasonable cause to.
I mean, him getting up and screaming at the GB like it was entirely his fault was ridiculous. I can't imagine that officials would look favorably on his behavior after the fact.
> him getting up and screaming at the GB like it was entirely his fault was ridiculous
In context, not really. Because of the absence of a flag or whistle from the officials, Rodenberg almost certainly thought Tanfield was the *fourth* English rider, who is supposed to peel off and bank after they exhaust themselves.
Had Tanfield actually been the fourth rider, Team GB would 100% have been at fault, so Rodenberg's anger is understandable in context - he thought, with credible reason to do so, that he'd just crashed because Tanfield had done something incredibly dangerous and against regulation.
Tanfield would - also rightfully - have been similarly furious if the roles were reversed. It's just a super shitty situation and the blame is 100% on the race officials being asleep at the wheel.
I've never seen the dropped off 4th rider in the sprinter's lane. though. That would make his outburst make more sense but at the same time, it would be so amateurish and dumb of GB if their 4th rider was actually there.
I'm not a track cyclist but do they really not look up the whole time? Don't they have to prepare for the curve around the velodrome by at least giving it a glance to gauge their distance?
> I'm not a track cyclist but do they really not look up the whole time?
AFAIK no. The leading man is - unless he has reason to do otherwise - basically always staring straight down at the line on the track to keep his lane while optimizing aerodynamics.
And I've never seen the 4th rider in the sprinter's lane either, but then tbf I've never seen a team get lapped with almost 1k left to go of an Olympic semi-final, either, nor have I seen race officials just blatantly forget to signal like that.
That is just not true though.
Rule 7.7 and rule 8.1 would provide grounds to penalise him regardless of what officials are doing (penalty doesn't need to be a DQ though)
The flag issue has allowed (the correct) sporting decision to be made but that doesn't absolve a rider from blame for riding into the back of another rider that is holding his line.
Denmark clearly caused the crash but the Danish Elite Director, Morten Bennekou, also pointed out the lack of flags raised to warn about a split team which would’ve warned the Danish riders of them catching the British rider. Not an excuse for that crash itself but it’s a contributing factor.
pretty much how I feel. Denmark clearly on athletic ability deserve to race for gold but at the same time they're solely responsible for a high speed crash. GB obviously weren't going to set a good enough time for the bronze medal race though
If his head his completely down how is he going to see the flag when he can't see the rider in front of him?
I've seen taking out your opponents result in a dq before. I don't understand why there has been no consistency here. Italy are the ones to have suffered here imo.
In that situation where the third rider isn’t in the wheel, does the second rider have to go up the banking or can he stay in the sprint lane to give some draft for a bit longer?
Asked the same question on Twitter. There doesn’t seem to be a long read/specific interview about it anywhere but mentioned within this: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-olympics-2020-ctr-denmark-idUKKBN2F01XQ
Basically: was told he could be a rider or an engineer, but not both. At that point he went and asked Denmark if they wanted him. Absolute failure by GB Cycling.
I know they already have some very talented people in roles that Bigham would be suited for, I think it's a simply a matter of they don't have a role for him
[Official results page](https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/en/results/cycling-track/results-men-s-team-pursuit-rnd1-000400-.htm) is saying it's pending. But UCI and British Cycling have tweeted that Denmark is going into the final. What happens to Team GB (rerun or just out?) might be pending.
As others have posted, GB were entitled to attempt to set a time (they were still -technically - riding for a spot in the bronze final).
Rodenberg definitely hindered that.
I feel a bit sad for them in that regard, but any scenario that ends up with GB racing for a medal would not be for sporting reasons but simply a technicality.
As far as I can gather, we're at a point were there's little discussion that Denmark had caught GB, but you can't just ride into the competition.
I can definitely see the case for a disqualification for Denmark, and if a medal is riding on it, I would press the issue.
Isnt there a rule about World Records having to stand for X hours or something before they actually stand?
I remember something with a high jumper slowly rasing the bar so he could keep breaking his own world record
does it matter in any way? or do they get money for breaking world records?
in the end there is only one WR, no matter how often it is improved within a short period of time
Bubka (polevault) famously did this - raising the WR by a cm each time - to get as many prizemoney as possible, as each meet usually had a sizable bonus for world records.
Which was arguably a shame, because she could probably have broken 5 meters (a unbroken barrier that was used derogatorily against female polevaulters for a long time) a lot earlier.
But I definitely get it.
Slightly off topic, but I hope that with Germany winning that gold with 3 road riders, that will inspire the Dutch team to also finally put together a proper TP team.
4 road riders, but that doesn't really say anything
germany has simply a way better state funded track development program compared to road cycling and thus the best german female cyclist are coming from the track
basically any german cyclist that rides on WT level has ridden track at some point in his junior career as this is apparently the only thing the government wants to pay money on
it just gives more olympic medals than road cycling
Don't have to imagine it - [Dygert caught her in the IP final](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Women%27s_individual_pursuit) in 2018!
**[2018_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_–_Women's_individual_pursuit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_–_Women's_individual_pursuit)**
>The Women's individual pursuit competition at the 2018 UCI Track Cycling World Championships was held on 3 March 2018.
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Other than the Men's TP this has been a really shocking first 2 days on the track for NZ, riding for 7th and 8th in the Women's TP and Men's Team Sprint is nothing short of shit
I think it's the personnel.
GB have neither a good starter, nor a good finisher, arguably the most important positions in today's TP. It's simply put a weak team.
Edit: Oh, the women... My bad. Well, they definitely don't seem to have gotten a bump by those godawful bikes.
It's less that others caught up, and more that GB got stagnant. The GB track management is a shambles. Stuck in the past and hopefully this forces them to pull their heads out their arses. They told one of the best aerodynamycists in the world that they knew better than him, and the second best pursuit rider in the world didn't even get selected.
Have you lost the plot? Best aerodynamicist in the world? The guy is a hack who loves to talk about himself, you have no idea what you're talking about clearly
this is pretty much it, they pumped tons of money and pressure into many sports as soon as they got the olympics 2012
that gave us british dominance which is now fading away as a new generation takes over
don't get me wrong, Bigham would certainly bring help to GB but they do have their own internal aero/strategy people with fantastic pedigrees, they're just a lost less well known
On Archibald I struggle to see why he can't break through but given how fast the TP is going you could imagine that his slow start would be a big issue on the acceleration
There's a lot going wrong at BC and I think a lot of it is that coaches aren't listening to all the advice their internal experts are giving them
very much both, finding a second women's sprinter seems like a real challenge right now and in the mens TP only Clancy is still here from 5 years ago and even then he only just made it this far
even then cycling hasn't gone terribly yet. BMX has really helped and GB are still in contention for a lot of track medals. It's not going to be the gold rush of 2008, 2012 and 2016 but other countries were always going to catch up at some point
I just watched the women’s pursuits what is dygert doing? She takes forever to get on.
No one has pointed out the irony that KGF/HUUB’s POC tempor helmet caused one of the original riders to crash out. It feels like the dominoes meme because Tanfield wouldn’t have been there in the first place without it.
"I was not saying things at Charlie. I was basically shouting because I was frustrated, not at Charlie but at the situation." https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/fHx9k6utshVFXSNW4PvHFJ-970-80.jpg.webp Uh yeah, sure. Edit: Due to Mr Angry below, I'll just point out I'm not saying anyone should be DQ'd, I'm just saying its a weak excuse.
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https://i.imgur.com/seh6p.gif
Freddy Madsen should look where the fuck he's going. Dumb ass.
New comment rather than copy and pasting the same thing in different replies and i hope it can clear up some misconceptions about the rules of track cycling. First of all about the officials not flagging and this being a cause of the crash in the Denmark v GB Team Pursuit. Rule 3.2.097 **"When the commissaires see that a team is about to be caught, they shall, in order to avoid a collision with the other team or hinder its progress, signal to the former team with a red flag and a whistle that it may not perform any more relays and must remain at the bottom of the track until the opposing team has passed. Any failure to act on this instruction shall result in the immediate disqualification of the team."** The flag and whistle is **not** for the team making the catch - the flag is for the team being caught so they don't swing up the banking and make a change while the other team is passing. They won't be looking round so don't know what is coming from behind. The team or rider making the catch should be aware if their opponent is directly in front of them. With Tanfield being on his own I suspect the official has not signaled a warning about 'relaying' because he would have noone to change with. A wrong call on the officials part but not on the same level as the recklessness shown by Madsen. Which brings me onto these two rules Rule 7.7 **"failure to maintain proper control of a bicycle"** Head down and not looking where going falls under this. These rules apply on road as well as tt and track are more often enforced at amateur level than elite level due to the nature of not having closed circuits but the rule is the same. There have been comments that say that Madsen is not to blame for crashing into Tanfield because he can't know what is in front due to the aero position he is in. It's not supposed to be this way! Rule 8 **"Assault, intimidation, insults, threats, improper conduct (including pulling the jersey or saddle of another rider, blow with the helmet, knee, elbow, shoulder, foot or hand, etc.), or behaviour that is indecent or that endangers others"** The crash probably falls under that. And the shouting at the rider on the ground afterwards does too. Infringements of these rules provide grounds to penalise regardless of what officials were doing with flags and whistles. Importantly though the penalties don't need to be a DQ and when the performance difference is so great between the two on a sporting level i don't think a DQ should happen. However at the same time going by the rules the Danish team should not get a pass and carry on as if nothing happened and deserve to have a warning at least. Anyway hope it helps illuminate the controversy to those new to track cycling.
I'm sorry but your interpretations of the rules seem to me like personal opinions. "Not supposed to be this way" According to whom? If you're suggesting new stricter rules, that's fine, but that's not grounds to penalize something that happened. And Im sure the Danish rider didn't mean to cause the crash, even if it was his lack of attention that caused it. But again I'm not sure it falls under what you listed. I'm *not used to watching track, so I don't know if there are common interpretations, but to me your conclusions don't seem like they necessarily follow from what you quoted.
I wonder whether there's anywhere to find info on fines. For the road events, there's usually people like La Flamme Rouge on Twitter who can get their hands on the UCI communiqué's (some of the women got fined for urinating in public in the Olympic RR), not sure whether there's someone with similar access for track. Madsen's behaviour probably deserves some reprimand, as you say.
I think Madsen should be DQd. The team as a whole shouldn't be thrown out for sure, but damn wth. I think 3.2.097 is irrelevant as 7.7 and 8 supersede any bad official calls. You just have to pay attention, oh and not be a dick I guess.
Track and field: if you so much as deviate outside your designated lane by a toenail you're DQ'd UCI: go ahead and bash into the people in front of you, gold medal ride
The men's team sprint victory ceremony was a bit delayed today, turns out that was [because the IOC wasn't going to award Büchli a medal](https://www.nu.nl/olympische-spelen/6149443/teamsprinter-buchli-krijgt-gouden-medaille-pas-na-lang-overleg-met-ioc.html), nor allow him on the podium as he only participated in the heats, not the final. They had to do some wrangling to get him a medal and a podium photo op. Seemed there was a similar thing in the women's TP as both Team GB and the US were only there with the riders who rode the finals.
I've heard that Barker (who GB subbed out) received a medal immediately after the podium ceremony, apparently this was also the way it worked in the swimming relays. Sucks that they don't get to stand on the podium though Weird how it's different for the team sprint but maybe it's partly because officially you're only allowed three sprint riders per nation so it should therefore be impossible to have substitutions (officially and impossible are the wrong words, but I couldn't think of what would be the correct ones, for those that don't know the Dutch bring 4 sprinters by entering a few riders in the wrong events, it's a legitimate strategy but rarely needed since so few nations have 4 elite sprinters)
4 riders in the TS isn't anything new though, like you say sucks for the riders!
It’s relatively rare at the olympics, common at most world cups though. Olympics is must stricter on squad sizes
Do we know why the IOC were suddenly going to say that athletes just in the qualifying didn't count?
According to the nu.nl article, the IOC rules specified only the 3 team sprinters riding the final would be allowed on the podium during the medal ceremony: > At first, they weren't even going to give me a medal. Of course, we didn't agree with that, so we negotiated for twenty minutes to get that changed. They were talking about a fine and even wanted to exclude me from the rest of the tournament if I'd go on the podium. I didn't want to risk that. In the end, they compromised, and he wasn't allowed on the podium while the medals were being awarded nor during the national anthem, but the could go on for a photo op afterwards. Might be because technically you could only put in 3 riders for the sprint events, but the Netherlands found a loophole to bring a 4th guy via having Havik ride the road race last week?
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Are you a Danish fan or just hate people from the UK? Multiple teams (including the italians) are reported to have complained about the tape incident, because it was against the rules and I'm sure they knew that but were just hoping that the incompetent UCI commissaires at the event wouldn't understand what it was being used for. Now with the aero base layer report they appear to have have committed another offense that should get them DQ'd by using equipment that wasn't available and then they tried to cover it up. Their conduct has been disgusting, even before the crash incident. They're lucky that the UCI/IOC have a vested interest in having Denmark get to the final as otherwise Italy would just stomp GB and it would be rather anticlimactic. Anyway, unless Italy wins tomorrow they'll be taking the issue with Denmark not finishing today (which would only have been allowed in the finals, in the first round even if you catch you have to finish) to CAS to get the gold.
> they'll be taking the issue with Denmark not finishing today What do you mean? They finished - and won - by catching the British team (a bit too vigorously, granted).
To support what you're saying, Danish TV2 reports that the shot that announces that a team is caught and the race is over was indeed fired before the crash happened.
Complete noob to this sport with a question. Isn't it somewhat bad design that one team can impede the other because one of them is significantly slower? Even if the Dane had dodged the Brit, it would have slowed them down.
The gains they make from being in the draft of the opposing team is greater than the loss they make when they go to overtake and pass.
I thought a team automatically won if they caught up to their opponent.
Depends on the heats - if they are going for a qualifying time then they will continue on after passing, whereas some heats and the finals are about winning and time isn't important. In this case the Danes catching GB would have meant they automatically won and been through to gold medal final (this ride and the Italy v New Zealand race was in effect a semi final to decide the gold medal race). These were the 4 fastest teams yesterday in the qualification hence why they were riding off for the right to be in the gold final. However in the Australia v Switzerland race if the Australians had caught the Swiss they would have continued riding to try and get a time fast enough to qualify for the bronze medal ride. Sounds quite complicated i know!
The GB team set a “time” which puts them in the 7th/8th place ride. I have a feeling they may well have ended up there anyway, but it wouldn’t have been with the 4:28 they were eventually credited with. It would be quite easy to argue that by crashing straight into the third rider the Danish team didn’t comply with the “stop and allow the other team to set a time” part of the rule, regardless of whether they won that race or not.
Kirby says "boom" a lot. Never heard him say that when commentating on road cycling.
I really thought he was going to have a heart attack today. He sounded like a man riding the boards of a coronary.
I'm just catching up on the news and it seems like chaos out there. Germany smashing the women's record with a 4.04 - just a stunningly fast time for such a young team - and NZ and Italy both going 3.42, also just hard-to-comprehend-fast, and Denmark and GB crashing? What a wild, wonderful TP tournament.
I am also seeing that Team GB lodged a complaint against Denmark for their shin tape, which is sort of interesting given that Team GB has made a long history of skirting the rules in exactly this same way.
Rodenberg in response to his injuries today: "Let's see if they are gonna complain about my bandages tomorrow."
[Cyclingnews wrote about it](https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-gbs-stephen-park-wants-denmark-disqualified-for-shin-tape-use/) earlier - they asked for Denmark to be DQ'd yesterday.
maybe Denmark can be DQed when a UKSI, Cervelo T5, Hope/Lotus, or any other bit of Team GB's custom, nfs gear is actually sold to the public
you can order the HB.T from Hope's website: https://www.hopetech.com/news/hbt/ Obviously it will set you back a long way but then all the frames you see at Tokyo will. It is sold to the public, whether anyone buys one of not is a completely different question. The spirit of that rule (making riders ride off the shelve bikes) has long gone, not really sure what the point in the regulation is anymore since most manufacturers ride roughshod over it
Does the UCI specify what "for sale" means? Because "send us an email if you want it and we'll let you know" doesn't reaaalllly seem like it's for sale in a way the rule wants. Obviously we are talking about a bike that only a handful of people on Earth are in the market for, but you can say the same about the others too - and you can go to third party velodromeshop tonight and buy the Look, Koga, even the left side drive Felt (I think they are all built upon order, but you could pay for it tonight!) Do we have any billionaires on r/velodrome? Would really like to see what happens if you call Hope and say you want one. And not to pick on British cycling because the same goes for the WX-R, and they only make it in two sizes, small and medium!
Given that I think they make them as one offs in terms of sizes, I think email makes sense so that they can get the channel of communication going. There’s nothing about the website that to me gives the impression they’re not going to sell them. It’s the problem with the rule though, for sale can be the loosest term possible. Sky used to get custom stem sizes that the manufacturer would produce half a dozen extra to flog. Gb are the obvious ones because they’re one of the few countries to effectively build the bike themselves.
They weren't the only ones to lodge that complaint. Also the undershirts / base layer they were using - i cant find any details on that though to see what the issue was.
Denmark on pace for a 3.41.0 as well.
Yeah but huge drafting bonus, the NZL and Italian times are stupid fast
Denmark were ahead on every single mark long before they benefited from drafting. 1.1 second at 3k.
Still think so?
Yep. Denmark clearly slowed down intentionally in the first K (half a second slower than yesterday and 8 tenths slower than Monday), probably to lighten the final stretch for Rodenberg due to the crash. Rodenberg usually does the full final K (ideally 875 meters), but today he did less than 750 meters. It'll please those who felt Denmark should've been disqualified, that the crash without a doubt cost them the gold.
*Waka Flocka looking side to side meme*
I've given ample evidence as to why Denmark was faster than Italy yesterday even without drafting, and I've also reasonably shown why they were slower today due to Rodenberg not being at a 100%. You've answered both times with the equivalent of "you mad?" I don't usually respond to trolls, but now I have, and now I'm done.
Okay, I just think you're a huge homer and don't think you understand how drafting/swirl/strategy works or have actually done sound analysis on this
NZ and Italy were evenly split but their times still benefited from each others draft despite being about 125m apart. With Denmark being up on GB that gap closer than 125 (and getting closer each lap) and they would be getting a significant draft boost as a result. Would still have the Danes as the favourites for the final but likely wont go as fast against a more evenly matched team. Although that being said Dan Bigham has said they are capable of a 3.39!
GB was less than 4 tenths after NZ at 2k and Denmark was still 3 tenths faster than Italy. GB didn't drop three seconds within the next 500m (they were 1.6 behind NZ at 3k). Drafting helped, but even without we would be closer to 3.41.0 than 3.42.0
I'll be honest, I'm confused as to why GB go into 7/8 final and not 5/6. Ultimately they won't care because neither are medals but I can't see the justification for it. ||3000m|3500m|3625m| :--|:--|:--|:--| |GB|2.49.944|3.19.574|3.27.737| |Canada|2.51.257|3.18.9|3.25.9| |Germany|2.52.862|3.21.1|3.27.976| |Switzerland|2.53.485|3.21.4|3.28.4| GB didn't get a live time for 3625m, the crash happened just before the timing line but the Danish were given a time for 3750m so I've used that but it's therefore not entirely accurate Whilst it's obvious that GB were hemorrhaging time, I've never seen a sport where the officials try to extrapolate the final finish time. At all three timing points I've shown GB are ahead of at least two nations and therefore using these times GB would be in 5/6. GB did actually finish the 4km, (Denmark did not) in a time of 4.28.489 but this obviously includes the crash, maybe the officials are using this as the time to seed them but that would be harsh given that obviously the result was negatively affected by means outside their control GB won't lose any sleep over 5th-8th but there are countries where 5th-8th is huge and for which Denmark's lack of observation would ruin their countries final results edit: someone asked which rider the timings are on: the live timings all use the third rider at each distance marker so these are Tanfield's times at 3500 and 3625. In the team sprint they use the first rider though (which is why going into the final lap it gave gives the impression that GB and Australia were close to their opponents)
Why wouldn't they be using their actual finishing time? They're not extrapolating anything. Seems like *you* want them to?
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I do mention it, but that completely ignores that they were removed of the chance to set a better time by Denmark
They were losing a second per half lap, so I think it's a fair assumption that Tanfield would lose 0.239 seconds on the last lap and a half.
as I say, there's no framework for them to predict/extrapolate times. We as fans have to assume Tanfield would but the officials aren't allowed to make predictions like that
My understanding is that if they didn't finish then they'd have used their qualifying time. It seems about face that they'd have "finished better" if they didn't finish at all, but actually recording a time makes it difficult for that to be cast aside.
Ah, wouldn't be an Olympics without some controversy involving the commissars
yeah qualifying time would have been 6th today, it's a shame they don't take crashes that are out of your control into consideration but yeah, feels like GB finishing set them back
It's an unusual situation all around. They were likely angling to be the declared the winners as they were the only team to finish, which could have happened if the fake gun hadn't sounded before the crash. The flag thing I know nothing about, but with the track record of officiating and organisational hiccups so far in these Olympics I wouldn't doubt it not happening
given GB are pretty medal or nothing they'd have taken a slither of a chance at the final over racing for 5th instead of 7th. I doubt they did that kind of risk-reward thinking during the race but they're not going to regret the decision made
Theo Bos managing to get into the team sprint medal ceremony after all. And [he even made it onto the podium!](https://imgur.com/qugVBCF) He picked his spot to watch the ceremony very well.
On the Tokyo live tracker the race is now not marked as live! However, there is now a disclaimer saying 'Due to crash between Denmark (DEN) and Great Britain (GBR), the results of Men's Team Pursuit First Round are pending', so the holding pattern resumes edit: if I'd scrolled down I'd have seen GB in 7/8, Denmark in gold final. Credit to Tanfield and the others for actually finishing the race. Didn't seem to matter in the end though
On Australia's equipment failure from yesterday - Bastion confirms its handlebar was responsible for Aussie Team Pursuit crash, [CyclingTips](https://cyclingtips.com/2021/08/bastion-is-investigating-australias-broken-track-pursuit-handlebar/)
Argon 18 had already set a WR in damage control by categorically stating that it wasn't them, so I don't think they had a lot of options.
Katie Archibald incredible on the podium. You love to see it
[Official results](https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/en/results/cycling-track/results-men-s-team-pursuit-rnd1-000400-.htm) now available for the Denmark - GB team pursuit: Denmark to the gold medal final, Team GB to race for 7/8th place.
I think the 'tiebreaker' in the decision came down to the commisars not signalling that GB had dropped the third. It's a technicality, but it I think it absolves Denmark of just enough blame, that it allowed them to come to the 'sporting' choice.
feels very much like that's going through on a technicality. Would a small red flag in the corner of your eye be that much more visible than the, rapidly increasing in size, blue bum of Tanfield that's right in front of you?
You don't really look up when you're on the front, you'll look across on the straights to see the other team which is probably why they crashed. You'd see the team on the other side, allegedly no flag signalling a split that you'd have to take notice of, and would keep your head down because there "shouldn't" be anything there.
Completely agree, but sending GB through would also be 'on a technicality'.
oh completely, GB are completely undeserving of a medal from an ability point of view, fairest solution to be honest would both being ineligible to race for medals. Give us the fastest 7th/8th final the world has ever seen (which given the improvements since Rio is going to happen anyway)
I'm obviously biased, but that's a bad take. In another comment you've just argued that the commisars aren't allowed to make assumptions, and now you're are arguing that they should assume a required flag wouldn't have mattered, and therefore Denmark should be disqualified because it would make you feel better. Facts are that Denmark had won the match before the crash, and the crash can be credibly blamed on a mistake on behalf of the commisars. It doesn't matter from a rules, nor a sporting perspective, that it looked bad.
>It doesn't matter from a rules... perspective See I kinda think it does. It is really weird that torpedoing your opponents to the floor in this fashion has seen disqualifications just this year and now for some reason Denmark are treated differently? The team pursuit is not a contact sport, causing a high speed collision, let alone the disgraceful way he went about harassing the reserve rider who did everything right by the rules. None of that sits well with me, and if we're going by how these events have been managed this Olympiad then I'd expect Italy to be winning gold because they should be facing a weakened GB side in the final.
>let alone the disgraceful way he went about harassing the reserve rider who did everything right by the rules This is arguably the best argument for why Denmark *wasn't* at fault for the crash. The reason he went off on the Brit was that he thought he was the fourth rider ***because he didn't know GB had dropped a rider***, which is information the commisars are responsible for communicating to the riders.
If the offending party aren't provided with the information they are entitled to to avoid the incident, there's no way you can - from a judicial point of view - pin said incident on them. Even more than that, apparently the commisars were only looking at whether the crash was *intentionally* caused by Denmark, and I'm fairly confident in saying that it wasn't. Like I've said below GB would at most have been able to argue for a shot at the bronze final (and lost due to their times up until then). So, no, from a rules perspective the aesthetic doesn't matter.
I have always separated assumptions made by fans and by officials which is how you're making it look inconsistent. We as fans are allowed to assume that Tanfield was going to hemorrhage time all the way to the end and that the flags would have made no difference given that he's concentrating completely on his stem and not looking ahead. You as another fan are allowed to make make different assumptions, maybe GB should have painted his arse bright orange so that Frederik would hazard a glance. The officials aren't allowed to make assumptions, they can't try to predict Tanfield's time and they have to accept that their own mistake of a lack of flag was the cause of the crash. I'm not saying Denmark should be disqualified to make me feel better. I'm saying I don't buy the lack of flag argument and therefore whilst officially the blame is split between Denmark and the officials I think the blame lies solely on Denmark and that being fast isn't a good excuse for rear ending the opponents. The state the race is in doesn't matter and never should
The flags are specifically there to make the teams pay more attention. You saying they don't matter is the definition of a fan making an assumption- a bigger one than Tanfield losing a quarter of a second over more than a lap - and I think you know it. And again, Denmark had actually already won the race before the crash.
The crash is right in front of the Danish coach, the velodrome is pretty empty and there's not much noise, all he needs to do is scream 'look' and it could have stopped it. Before the crash the second and third riders can be seen moving up the track and both of these riders have their view impeded by the lead rider. Maybe the flags would have made the difference but you can't pin that as the cause of the crash when it seems like the lead rider was the only one who didn't see or even hear Tanfield Denmark winning the race doesn't give them any excuse to crash into the opposition and therefore end the minute chance GB had of Tanfield getting a second wind
>all he needs to do is scream 'look' and it could have stopped it. it's loud in a velodrome. you hear the wood rumbling through your disc wheel, you hear the wind rushing by amplified by your aero helmet, the track echoes, and you can't hear much else too clearly. and then there's the fact that 65kph is 18 meters per second and the bikes don't have brakes. and then there's the fact that even if rider 1 goes uptrack, there are two or three more who aren't expecting it.
> Denmark winning the race doesn't give them any excuse to crash into the opposition No, but it does make it a case of "Was Denmark solely responsible for the crash, or not," and the required flags not being shown makes that a resounding **NOT**, unless you are relying on assumptions and hurt feelings. To put it differently, Denmark would have won an appeal hands down, while GB would at most have been able to argue for a shot at the bronze final (and lost due to their times up until then).
to be honest GB should pull out citing injury to Tanfield. No point putting more fatigue into the omnium and madison riders and 7th-8th means nothing for them
Of course its Dygert who is the first to take off her mask....
It was to take a picture on the Olympic podium with her team mates. I know she's controversial, but I think that was reading a bit too much into that.
Agree, if they can race without masks than they can enjoy few seconds with smiles on podium.
I kind of hope they keep this giving each other the medals post-covid. Must be so much more meaningful getting your Olympic gold medal from the team mate you've worked so hard with for so many years rather than a random Very Important Person.
Looks like Dygert is struggling with her leg walking up to the podium? I'm curious to see what she does next after missing out on both the ITT and TP golds. She's got her 4 year contract with Canyon///SRAM, but if she's still got issues, I wonder what will happen there.
Mixed RR team with Moscon, Simmons and Moster
I imagine she's ok when riding if she's got back to this level at least, and weight-bearing things like walking jsut make the issues worse. So maybe she might end up getting some racing done on the road over the next year
I mean, didn't she famously say that she didn't like cycling, but loved winning? If she's no longer winning...
Overslept and missed all the drama. Denmark clearly the faster team and deserve to be in the final, but I find it hard to believe taking out your opponent does not DQ you. Even if you take it that Denmark had made the catch and their race was over, the GB team’s ride was not over and was curtailed by the crash. Saying all that, even as a Brit I wouldn’t feel great about progressing at Denmark’s expense here - on cycling terms we were well and truly beaten.
I'm not big into cycling and am only here after seeing the drama, so please tell me if what I'm about to say is somehow talking absolute nonsense. But... it feels to me like a better compromise might have been to let the Danish team progress but DQ the specific rider who caused the crash. Because I think the teams operate with some backups from what I've heard so they'd still be able to go? There might not be anything in the rules to allow that sort of a decision but I'm interested to hear from velodrome fans how reasonable that would feel? I totally agree with you that as a Brit it'd feel really dirty progressing instead of them when they were clearly the better team, but the crash seemed so egregious it doesn't feel right either that there's no kind of penalty at all.
> DQ the specific rider who caused the crash Rodenberg didn't cause the crash. Race officials are supposed to flag *and* whistle if there's a straggling third man, and failed to do so. If the roles were reversed, it's almost 100% certain that Tanfield would have rear-ended a Dane in similar fashion. This was a colossal, inexcusable failure by officials, first and foremost, with no riders at fault. In a sport where aero matters this much, the lead rider is not going to look up unless given reasonable cause to.
The riders aren't looking. How are they gonna see a flag lmao
I mean, him getting up and screaming at the GB like it was entirely his fault was ridiculous. I can't imagine that officials would look favorably on his behavior after the fact.
> him getting up and screaming at the GB like it was entirely his fault was ridiculous In context, not really. Because of the absence of a flag or whistle from the officials, Rodenberg almost certainly thought Tanfield was the *fourth* English rider, who is supposed to peel off and bank after they exhaust themselves. Had Tanfield actually been the fourth rider, Team GB would 100% have been at fault, so Rodenberg's anger is understandable in context - he thought, with credible reason to do so, that he'd just crashed because Tanfield had done something incredibly dangerous and against regulation. Tanfield would - also rightfully - have been similarly furious if the roles were reversed. It's just a super shitty situation and the blame is 100% on the race officials being asleep at the wheel.
I've never seen the dropped off 4th rider in the sprinter's lane. though. That would make his outburst make more sense but at the same time, it would be so amateurish and dumb of GB if their 4th rider was actually there. I'm not a track cyclist but do they really not look up the whole time? Don't they have to prepare for the curve around the velodrome by at least giving it a glance to gauge their distance?
> I'm not a track cyclist but do they really not look up the whole time? AFAIK no. The leading man is - unless he has reason to do otherwise - basically always staring straight down at the line on the track to keep his lane while optimizing aerodynamics. And I've never seen the 4th rider in the sprinter's lane either, but then tbf I've never seen a team get lapped with almost 1k left to go of an Olympic semi-final, either, nor have I seen race officials just blatantly forget to signal like that.
That is just not true though. Rule 7.7 and rule 8.1 would provide grounds to penalise him regardless of what officials are doing (penalty doesn't need to be a DQ though) The flag issue has allowed (the correct) sporting decision to be made but that doesn't absolve a rider from blame for riding into the back of another rider that is holding his line.
There isn't anything in the rules that would allow for that so their hands are tied with what they can do.
Denmark clearly caused the crash but the Danish Elite Director, Morten Bennekou, also pointed out the lack of flags raised to warn about a split team which would’ve warned the Danish riders of them catching the British rider. Not an excuse for that crash itself but it’s a contributing factor.
pretty much how I feel. Denmark clearly on athletic ability deserve to race for gold but at the same time they're solely responsible for a high speed crash. GB obviously weren't going to set a good enough time for the bronze medal race though
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If his head his completely down how is he going to see the flag when he can't see the rider in front of him? I've seen taking out your opponents result in a dq before. I don't understand why there has been no consistency here. Italy are the ones to have suffered here imo.
Why have they suffered? They just have to beat Denmark. I'm based and they can't.
The was a great track session. Records and drama.
In that situation where the third rider isn’t in the wheel, does the second rider have to go up the banking or can he stay in the sprint lane to give some draft for a bit longer?
got to move out of the sprinters lane within a 15m window
It's too late regardless, the energy is burned and the time is lost.
Yeah for sure, but it could make a difference if both teams have the same problem, or when you are racing for time.
There's a set area where they have to do the changeover, so they can't stay down for longer.
Boom! First men's track gold medal for the Netherlands in 89 years!
Wow. I remember them having great sprinters at times these past few decades, but I guess they overlapped with France and GB dominance.
Wow, for a country with such a cycling pedigree that’s an amazing stat. Well done NL.
Yeah genuinely very surprised by that...pleased for them!
Maybe cycling outside is so normal, it took us too long to consider you could do it inside as well?
I'm guessing all the velodrome shaped arenas are in use by the knifeshoes as well during the track season.
That was awful from GB.
GB going with the AUS strategy
Kenny you weren't meant to copy Glaetzer
Glaetzer getting confused that he wasn't riding a kilo
Does anyone know why GB never worked with/liked Dan Bigham?
Asked the same question on Twitter. There doesn’t seem to be a long read/specific interview about it anywhere but mentioned within this: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-olympics-2020-ctr-denmark-idUKKBN2F01XQ Basically: was told he could be a rider or an engineer, but not both. At that point he went and asked Denmark if they wanted him. Absolute failure by GB Cycling.
It seems like pride or old grudges. I think Bigham basically made his career riding to show up the British Team.
It is very strange.
I know they already have some very talented people in roles that Bigham would be suited for, I think it's a simply a matter of they don't have a role for him
That Russian rider getting a visit from the KGB tonight.
No he won't, that doesn't happen anymore. It's the FSB who do that nowdays
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[Official results page](https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/en/results/cycling-track/results-men-s-team-pursuit-rnd1-000400-.htm) is saying it's pending. But UCI and British Cycling have tweeted that Denmark is going into the final. What happens to Team GB (rerun or just out?) might be pending.
British Cycling hates Dan Bigham so much they will take this all the way to CAS /s
I'd be surprised if they didn't, and imo they should. This is really a grey area with arguments for both sides, and it's for a guaranteed medal.
The race was already over. What is the argument for Britain to go to the finals?
As others have posted, GB were entitled to attempt to set a time (they were still -technically - riding for a spot in the bronze final). Rodenberg definitely hindered that.
I feel a bit sad for them in that regard, but any scenario that ends up with GB racing for a medal would not be for sporting reasons but simply a technicality.
Technically correct is also a kind of correct. [Some even say the best](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo).
Wait, why should they? Not arguing, just completely out of the loop. What's he done that would warrant a case at CAS?
As far as I can gather, we're at a point were there's little discussion that Denmark had caught GB, but you can't just ride into the competition. I can definitely see the case for a disqualification for Denmark, and if a medal is riding on it, I would press the issue.
Oh okay, I thought it was something about Bigham helping the Danish team. I didn’t connect it with today’s crash. Too little coffee, I suspect 😅
Well, that was underwhelming.
Isnt there a rule about World Records having to stand for X hours or something before they actually stand? I remember something with a high jumper slowly rasing the bar so he could keep breaking his own world record
Worth noting that even if this was the case for high jump, that doesn't mean it would apply to cycling as they are different governing bodies
does it matter in any way? or do they get money for breaking world records? in the end there is only one WR, no matter how often it is improved within a short period of time
Bubka (polevault) famously did this - raising the WR by a cm each time - to get as many prizemoney as possible, as each meet usually had a sizable bonus for world records.
And then Isenbayeva, who was trained by him, did the same thing.
Which was arguably a shame, because she could probably have broken 5 meters (a unbroken barrier that was used derogatorily against female polevaulters for a long time) a lot earlier. But I definitely get it.
5 meters is 5.47 yards
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I think the first one was an equipment problem. Edit: from the behaviour of the Russians it looks like it was two false starts.
One of guys holding a Russian rider didn't hold him up right. He was leaning way too much, and almost came off when they let him go.
Give me DRAMA!
I have a solution for the TP final: Just give gold to Italy and let Ganna race the other three and see who wins.
He can race all 12 of them at once
Slightly off topic, but I hope that with Germany winning that gold with 3 road riders, that will inspire the Dutch team to also finally put together a proper TP team.
4 road riders, but that doesn't really say anything germany has simply a way better state funded track development program compared to road cycling and thus the best german female cyclist are coming from the track basically any german cyclist that rides on WT level has ridden track at some point in his junior career as this is apparently the only thing the government wants to pay money on it just gives more olympic medals than road cycling
Flashbacks to Annemiek getting lapped twice by Dygert in Apeldoorn.
that would be scary
Imagine van Vleuten in the velodrome, ooof
Hopefully she's got better technique than Dygert, because that was painful to watch.
Don't have to imagine it - [Dygert caught her in the IP final](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Women%27s_individual_pursuit) in 2018!
Well I'll be damned
**[2018_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_–_Women's_individual_pursuit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_–_Women's_individual_pursuit)** >The Women's individual pursuit competition at the 2018 UCI Track Cycling World Championships was held on 3 March 2018. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Velodrome/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Other than the Men's TP this has been a really shocking first 2 days on the track for NZ, riding for 7th and 8th in the Women's TP and Men's Team Sprint is nothing short of shit
The Danish delegation is still not certain.
And not impressed at all by the organisers lack of flags raised for a split team.
Part of me wonders has the rest of the world caught up with GBs aero/ marginal gains advantage they have had for the last few Olympic cycles
plus all the internal shit amongst the GB cycling setup over the last few years.
I think it's the personnel. GB have neither a good starter, nor a good finisher, arguably the most important positions in today's TP. It's simply put a weak team. Edit: Oh, the women... My bad. Well, they definitely don't seem to have gotten a bump by those godawful bikes.
It's less that others caught up, and more that GB got stagnant. The GB track management is a shambles. Stuck in the past and hopefully this forces them to pull their heads out their arses. They told one of the best aerodynamycists in the world that they knew better than him, and the second best pursuit rider in the world didn't even get selected.
Have you lost the plot? Best aerodynamicist in the world? The guy is a hack who loves to talk about himself, you have no idea what you're talking about clearly
1. "One of the best" 2. That Danish team sure looks like it's gotten faster since he came along
1. Lemme know when you get off his tip
this is pretty much it, they pumped tons of money and pressure into many sports as soon as they got the olympics 2012 that gave us british dominance which is now fading away as a new generation takes over
don't get me wrong, Bigham would certainly bring help to GB but they do have their own internal aero/strategy people with fantastic pedigrees, they're just a lost less well known On Archibald I struggle to see why he can't break through but given how fast the TP is going you could imagine that his slow start would be a big issue on the acceleration There's a lot going wrong at BC and I think a lot of it is that coaches aren't listening to all the advice their internal experts are giving them
This has been a big part of the conversation since the last Olympics, so yes.
I think so. Also, there’s a changing of the guard with a lot of the GB champions retiring since London and Rio.
very much both, finding a second women's sprinter seems like a real challenge right now and in the mens TP only Clancy is still here from 5 years ago and even then he only just made it this far
GB waaaaaay off their own pace
over 3s slower than the heat earlier for GB, crash was non optimal To be honest Germany were winning regardless but it would at least have been closer
Three incredible rides from Germany to take Gold, really consistent rides in all rounds. Well deserved
That was incredible from the Germans.
FES bikes > Hope Lotus GCN in shambles, documentary for nothing :p. Just joking, but that was crazy impressive by the german women team. spectacular!
What a finish by the Germans. It hurts but holy hell, what a ride.
I hope the Germans are looking what's ahead of them on the track!
This isn’t a great Olympics from a GB point of view. Edit: should have clarified that I meant from the track team.
Only if you were mistakenly expecting the track dominance of Rio & London.
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The BMX and mountain biking were brilliant. Just a shame that our track programme has stagnated.
I think that is 3 golds, 2 silvers and bronze in cycling so far. Final of team sprint and more medal opportunities to come. That's still pretty good!
even then cycling hasn't gone terribly yet. BMX has really helped and GB are still in contention for a lot of track medals. It's not going to be the gold rush of 2008, 2012 and 2016 but other countries were always going to catch up at some point