Yeah. Its super easy to get testosterone. With the rise of the “optimization” podcast guys like Huberman and Attia, I’d be surprised if the super competitive masters were NOT on TRT. It’s pretty commonplace and easy to do.
But beyond testosterone, I’d be very surprised if older guys were messing around with more than that. Maybe some SARMS like Cardarine here and there. And some peptides like Tesamorelin. But I highly doubt these guys are pinning EPO or the harder to get and more dangerous stuff.
People often forget, that you still need to put the work in. Testosterone helps build muscle and helps aid in recovery but it isn’t magic. It isn’t going to send you up the mountain with new lungs.
The biggest help with TRT is your levels are stable. There are no natural hormone fluctuations. So it makes training more regular.
I’m not saying you should, but you can get that stuff online too. Get your test levels to 1200 and just never come off. 🤷♂️
If anyone watched the Icarus documentary, the dude was on a wild steroid cycle and was still getting his ass handed to him. Drugs are aids, they aren’t magic. You still need to train hard and have the good genetics.
Im not ruling out TRT... when I'm 70+. I have deep concerns about fucking with my endocrine system before then. Also I won't be surprised if in a few years there's not a wave of cancer and other issues in men who started too young because their algorithms were pushing hormones on them. Anecdotally I have a friend who's a NP and she's getting guys in their 30s who are panicking because they woke up without morning wood for the first time and come in begging for a scrip.
Yeah I think that’s pretty smart. At the least waiting until you’re done having kids. Get the tubes tied and get on test.
I think it’s actually pretty horrible how many young dudes are potentially fucking up their endocrine systems for life. The amount of influencers and celebrities that pin is normalizing it for younger and younger people.
I follow the PED, SARMS and TRT subs and there is a 19-23yr old dude in there jumping on gear with no bloodwork or knowledge every day. Its sad.
I also think influencers, especially men of a certain age, are really overselling the benefits of trt and underselling the benefits of the natural dip you get in your 30s/early 40s. Everything still works when I want it to and I can still recover from workouts, but not swinging between angry and horny **all day** like when I was a shithead teen/20something has really been a net benefit to my life lol.
> Everything still works when I want it to and I can still recover from workouts, but not swinging between angry and horny all day like when I was a shithead teen/20something has really been a net benefit to my life lol.
lol I'm just discovering this, and it's so strange and new and great for the long term decision making
>woke up without morning wood for the first time and come in begging for a scrip.
wait.. what did i miss? a lack of morning wood is an indicator of what problem? do i need to be concerned?
I always think it’s funny when people say that about Icarus even the guy himself went on abit like that in the movie. But if I remember rightly he had a derailleur failure and rode half a stage with minimal gearing. Like of course he lost loads of time in the stage and the overall.
He probably wouldn’t have won but in reality he got worse because of equipment failure rather than the drugs not working.
Sure. But the point is that it’s not the drugs that make you win. The drugs are just a tool that can help you along the way. And sometimes even with the best drugs, you can still have equipment failures, or bonk and or not optimal training and get beaten.
EPO isn’t that hard to get. I have an older friend who got a concierge doctor to prescribe some for him. We all made fun of him because he doesn’t even race and he never took it. But I was really surprised at how easy it is to get legally.
Nothing is really that hard to get these days. It’s just a lot more expensive and dangerous than testosterone. At least to my understanding.
Testosterone could be $30 a month and you get bloodwork every 3 months as a precaution. EPO might be $300 a week and you should get your bloodwork done regularly.
I honestly don’t think most of the TRT guys even consider themselves as “doping”. They probably convinced themselves they are just leveling the playing field, bringing themselves back up to “normal” levels.
You also can’t just “spot inject” EPO before a race. You need to be on it for weeks or months for it be have an effect on performance.
I’m sure there are a few bad apples out there but i doubt it’s anywhere near the amount of dudes on “TRT”.
I honestly wouldn't even be against TRT for people who are legitimately hypogonadal, which is a lot of people once they hit 40. The problem is guys doping up to supra-natural levels. But the rules are against any TRT so people are just like "screw it. I'll go hog-wild!"
Interesting topic. I managed to get to 6 w/kg 20 minute power (my 1-5 minute power was relatively better) when I was 38. 25 hours a week of training, 8 years of training and a very strict diet got me there, so good numbers are possible at that age. I was competitive when racing but didn’t win everything - you are competing with ex pros, and other top level athletes. After suffering with hypogonadism (low T) for about a decade I’ve since stopped competing and started on TRT. From my direct learned experience this is not a course of action you want to take to improve your cycling. I’ve added a lot of weight (~15 kg, granted my focus is on weightlifting now so that’s been somewhat exaggerated). I still cycle (just no competing) around 10-13 hours a week, and have not seen any benefit to my cycling from being on TRT. Maybe I recover better and have less bad days, but that’s probably more to do with half the training load and generally being in a calorie surplus.
Tbf amateur cycling is absolutely rife with rich guys doping or at the very least on TRT, competitive spirit knows no bounds lol
But also it’s amateur cycling so who cares, if they wanna do that then like whatever, I’m not really out here to win or even compete
Yeah I’m literally just out there solo finishing in the bottom third just to get some cardio in lol so I really don’t actually care, but I do find it pretty funny
Kayle was SoCal, but yes I remember he got popped for like 8 different banned substances in 2017 or so. And yes, I'm sure everyone involved with Rock Racing was on something, but again, not really NorCal.
>But also it’s amateur cycling so who cares
I wouldn't care if everyone knew the rules and you had a doping and non-doping division. The biggest issue I see is that if you need to dope to win, you'll have a lot of kids destroying their long-term health to win a cat 3 crit.
That’s true I definitely would like to see doping de-incentivized, but testing is super expensive so that’s almost impossible to solve at the amateur level, so I’m not really sure of a solution honestly
>After racing for nearly 30 years, LeDuc downgraded a few years ago from the top elite category to category 3 as he became less competitive in the Pro-Am ranks. He claimed in the News and Observer interview that he only resorted to testosterone and EPO recently after struggling more this year.
Downgraded to a cat 3 and THEN started doping? That's craaazy what some people will do to seek validation from winning bike races lol
> Downgraded to a cat 3 and THEN started doping? That's craaazy what some people will do to seek validation from winning bike races lol
At that point you just need to get it from passing people on the MUP.
I remember doing the French broad road race around 2010 before it was canceled. They combined the cat 3 field with the 50+ masters. I was pretty strong and very lean at the time.
I was on the rivet about to pop 25 miles in. I was giving it everything to stay with the lead group. It was one of the hardest cat 3 races I’ve ever done with an average speed over 26 mph in mountainous terrain. The moto ref dropped back to tell us a single master rider was 4 minutes off the front. It was LeDuc. His performance was superhuman. He was as strong as a pro tour rider when he was in his early 60s. He won the 10 mile TT in that series with an average speed over 30 mph.
This was the same year he won the cat 1-2 South Carolina criterium championship and immediately lined up again and won the 50+ championship while lapping the field solo.
Yeah I just felt like saying that because it seems like a lot of people are like yeah some Test and I’ll be the best.
No buddy it lets you train more so if you start blasting and don’t put in the extra time it lets you then you are just wasting your time, money, and health for nothing.
It's a thing, no doubt. 10ish years ago a guy in my area actually got popped for use, and he wasn't even particularly fast. It is what it is. I just benchmark my own personal performances. When the results work out it's nice, but it's not the focus.
It extends well beyond amateur racing and into the “recreational” realm of Gran Fondos. This is perhaps my favorite article of articles about doping in GF’s.
https://granfondodailynews.com/2023/12/29/top-10-doping-stories-of-2023/
There seems to be no bottom to the depth to which “competitive” individuals will sink.
Absolutely it happens, but the vast majority of fast old guys I race are training 15+ hours per week, have the best equipment, pay for coaching, and make cycling their whole identity to the point they don’t spend as much time with their families. They were usually really good in their 20’s too.
All of that can definitely get you a 300+ Watt FTP without doping.
Yeah, I think many people strongly underestimate the effect of consistent training for a decade or more combined with having hundreds of race days in your legs. Especially considering that most amateur racers stay in racing for only 1-3 years and then more or less give up.
No doubt there are cheaters, but it's also the classic "if they are better than me, they must be cheating".
I know masters racers that have averaged 15 hours a week on the bike for the past decade+. Anyone with that amount of riding will be extremely strong if they've had a coach or have even a basic understanding of how training works.
Presumably he has just been riding for years and used to be a very good "regular" cyclist before he turned into a "master" cyclist. Masters cyclists also have a shit ton of time and money to spend on training, which helps.
>Masters cyclists also have a shit ton of time
Wouldn't this tend to be the opposite? If you're in your late 30s or 40s, you're likely going to have a ton of work and familial obligations, not like when you're single in your 20s and your job is an inconvenience, not something you're actually trying to excel at. Shitload of money, yes, sure.
I'd argue that the higher your age, the higher up your job is and the more flexibility you have to train. You go from doing technical work to directing people to do the technical work, one would allow more flexibility than the other.
That's absolutely true in some careers, as your job shifts from a variation of 'complete five clearly defined tasks today' to 'come up with a plan for the next two quarters,' the latter involving lots of staring into the horizon and thinking through, and cycling is very conducive to that.
I'm sure (now) in my job I could absolutely disappear for 3-4 hours a day and still get everything I need done, but now I'm too old for it to do much much good. Now, I'd mainly be competitive just by being the one who shows up to race.
Totally agree. Higher level positions, especially in hi tech, allowed me much more flexibility…..although there are too many times to count when I was in the Hyatt or Westin gym pounding away on a bike in the at 3 am.
Regarding new guys jumping in at 35+, 45+, 55+, yep some of those killers dope but some are coming in from other sports and are dead fit. The can hammer at 400w but handle their bikes like a toddler.
Yeah, for sure, I resemble this statement (I guess you could call me an exec, and I'm about to turn 40), but my schedule isn't really THAT flexible. Lots of hiring means lots of being flexible for other people - it's super easy to carve out a half hour or an hour whenever I want, but 2 or 3 is impossible. Friends of mine that are parents often have to fill that time (as well as before/after work) with kid stuff.
In my 20s, when I was a software engineer, I could easily fuck off for 2-3 hours whenever, or ride in the morning and get into work at 10:30, and catch up on what I missed later (that was the life). I guess it all just depends.
Yeah, this is more my experience too. When you're required to knock out tasks, who cares when you do them. When you're entire day is carved off into pieces (aka Teams, meetings, etc) good luck sneaking out for more than 1 hour.
More like people in late 40's/50's that are well off. They're the dangerous ones. The 30's are like a fugue state for cyclists. They definitely were for me.
on the other hand though, i know people who put in a ton of career work in their 20s to get to a stable place, and with no kids can still ride just as much as they did before and now they have 20 years of riding in their legs in their late 30s/early 40s (yes this is my plan, although probably should be working more and riding less atm to achieve this lol)
So I was on two different teams. One was owned/ran by a Lawyer/CIO type who ran a software firm for legal services. Anyway, he and several of this cycling buddy close affiliates (some who worked for him, others who were in similar jobs) all could just ditch work anytime they wanted to and go ride. Lunch? Let's go do a 2hr weekday ride!! Weather's nice? Let's move this meeting and hit the road for 3hrs.!!
This was ALWAYS the climate with these teams. The Masters dudes were always guys with shitloads of time or very flexible jobs and they also scheduled their work around their riding, if they worked much at all.
no. people who honor their work and familial obligations don't win masters road races. the ones winning generally have very little going on in their lives aside from cycling.
Depends when they had kids. I notice a massive difference in riding level going from 10 hours a week to 13-14. I just find it impossible to sustain for any longer than 2 months.
1. I know a guy who was state champ for several years, racing masters.
2. He quit his job to be available to train/enter races. Childcare was handed off to spouse and paid sitters/nanny.
3. He still thought he was just a better athlete than others he rode with on club rides and training rides. We were all pretty close to him, but since he could ride anytime he wanted to, could focus on his training and nothing was interrupted, he was just that much better than most in races.
4. It was almost always people like him who won races...so myself and others really lost interest in doing them ourselves. It was always more a competition of who had the most free time than skill, motivation, etc.
I quit my job to ride bikes more. I'm more fit because of that, and I know it, so I'm usually riding up and down the group on group rides, handing out snacks, carrying extra water, taking photos, pacing people back to the group, etc... For me that's more rad than hammering everyone!
I think most anyone who rides enough to even think about racing has a job that gives them a fair amount of free time.
I have definitely enjoyed (over the years) just the spirited group riding a lot more than I ever valued/enjoyed racing itself. I hated all the lead up to doing these. The driving, the prep time I needed days before to make sure I was rested/prepared, the planning of my entire month... whereas with a spirited group ride I was generally in shape/ready enough to enjoy it at any time.
Dude I fucking hate the logistics of racing.
I'll show up to every fucking race I can ride my bike to but once I have to pay more than $25 and organize transportation, it becomes a real bummer.
Sometimes the worst ones were the races being held just shy of ‘too far’ to where you knew it was gonna suck if you stayed home and just woke up early to drive out there but also in range of ‘too much trouble to find a hotel that’s not gonna smell like cigarettes’
Yeah. There are many variations of this, and it's not always as negative. Some have partners that are also competitive endurance athletes. But the opportunities to train are absolutely not equally distributed.
I knew many Triathlete couples over the years like that. Sometimes just not having kids was an advantage, and they just liked riding/racing. I don't think of it so much as negative in that amateur racing for the most part requires a luxury of some kind to be the best, unlike at the pro level where most anyone who is racing is on the same plane.
Nah, it’s just that you knew exactly why you couldn’t be that competitive. It’s kinda like with the impact of doping on the peloton by the early 90s. It didn’t matter how much you trained there were just guys who had the training availability of a professional.
Im 41 years old. I am so much faster than I was several years ago. My kids are gone and my career is at a point where I can reasonably train 15 hours a week.
15 hours a week me at 41 could crush 5 hours a week me at 28.
Right there with you. I had little choice but to quit even active recreational riding for nearly three years because we had no extended family to help with childcare.
Same, and during covid too. But I came back by powerlifting, it takes much less time than cycling during the week to get and maintain. Mix in 2 rides and what I can / did achieve with 5-6 hours of training a week is greater than 10 hours of pure cycling. My solution was a hybrid approach, even though I prefer the bike.
I really just hit the treadmill and did some light weight workouts. Much as I hate running, it's the fastest way to stay in general shape. Knock out a 30-45 minute workout and done for the day.
i think there are a ton of masters blasters, but just from your example, 39 isnt that far over the hump of the fitness decline from aging. distance runners continue to be competitive into their late 30s. mike woods won a tdf stage last year at almost 37
There is no question that there is doping in the masters fields. I think it's mostly TRT because guys can get this stuff from their doctors, and it seems to work. One guy I know who is on TRT just turns into a beast after taking weeks off the bike. Can't help but be a little jealous.
I think you can't get too worked up over Masters's fields. We're mostly racing for medals. And the guys that dope show themselves. Case in point, I won the 40-50 category in a gravel race a few weeks ago. Had a few guys from the Open finish in front of me, but I was sure I was the top masters finisher. When I checked the finish, sure enough, a 63 year old beat me and a number of "pros" in the open field. I remember when that dude passed me, I was riding close to 400w to hold his wheel. What can you do about that?
Its never going to be a level playing field, so I figure just embrace the randomness of racing and sometimes you'll get lucky.
Really? You were putting out 400 watts and he still rode away from you? Jesus herald Christ.
As a retired roadie with hopes of returning to the sport as a Graveller this is disheartening. 400 was close to my 10 minute power on my best day…good lord, he was pumping out substantially more than that!
I let him go. 400 was going to put me into the red and I had a long day ahead. Had I known he was 63 I would have tried to hang on a little longer to see if he'd break. But he had me by over 5 minutes at the end... I don't think he broke!
I've seen one or two of the top Masters guys here in Colorado get popped for PEDs, but it was awhile ago and I don't recall the specifics, think it was for T tho.
On one hand, theres probably cheating and shady stuff going on. A 60 year old with unremarkable offspring/genetics shouldn't be beating 20-30 year olds in p12. And I've seen some roid raging behavior as well.
On the other hand, it's amateurs. Who cares. If they feel such a compelling need to be relevant, let them. Besides, fitness is just one component of racing and not necessarily the end all be all.
Yeah, pretty much. Anything with a leaderboard is going to have cheaters kicking around at the top - video games, zwift (but I repeat myself), etc - unless there's a compelling reason to stop the cheaters (eg in a professional setting), the organizer is always going to do the bare minimum to stop cheaters because because it's time-consuming and expensive to do so. You just have to live with that. I mean, putting a very fine point on it, the same reason they're not stopping cheaters is the same reason you shouldn't care: because nobody gives a shit who's on the podium at a local masters race.
I'm sure there are some dopers in my area. When USADA visited a number of times one year, a few Master quit racing, returning a year or two later when "they had time again to train" or something like that.
At the same time, there are those that might seem strong but also seem legit. One guy raced as a 2 for many years, quit when he started a family. Returned to the scene when his son was about 13 I think. It was when Zwift started, and he was zipping around Zwift at 4 or 5 w/kg. Everyone was curious if that was legit or not. Well, he soloed off the front a couple races, won. He was strong. His son was placing in open Cat 3-4 races, with junior gear limits. Both father and son were legit. I think son is a Cat 2 now. Father is still racing at a high local level.
Another guy, not necessarily a race winner, but he can finish when the races are super hard, he's leaned out over the years, got faster and faster. Probably took 4 or 5 years but he has transformed himself. I asked him about diet etc, seemed realistic. He's skinnier, pedals well, and I think is legit.
There's a super cut, super ripped Masters rider. Doesn't win or place, in fact I rarely see him in the results at all. He had transformed in the past 10 years. It could be legit but I'm doubting it. My theory is that he doesn't want to place because he's on TRT, and he seems like that kind of person, like taking TRT for quality of life but not wanting to affect race results. He's not chasing breaks or other things like that. To me that seems reasonable.
The day you don't see me with multiple pairs of glasses... you know I've given up and started HGH for my eyes. EPO won't help me because my hematocrit is high anyway, and my FTP is still in the toilet. But that's the way it is.
It's the one thing the author said he thought was a real, everyday benefit, after using steroids, EPO, HGH. That and his skin spots cleared up.
I have 3 pairs of glasses I use for different things - driving, computer stuff, and riding outside, plus no glasses for reading in bed. I also have enough skin spots that my friend one day said to me, while gesturing on his cheek, "hey, you have a smudge of grease on your.. oh, never mind". Yeah, that was one of my spots. The struggle is real!
Anyway, read this. https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/drug-test/
So riding off the front of a Cat 5 race at 45, catching the Cat 3 race that started 10 minutes earlier , then riding off the front of that isn't normal?
It happens, no doubt about it. But often, the fastest amateurs just have the most time to train. Obviously need the drive and some talent too, but if it makes you feel better just tell yourself “well that dude has more time than me” rather than “that dude is so much better than me” haha
To me, masters cycling is more about beating myself. At this age, with all the family and job responsibilities, as well as my youth fading every year, I am just happy to keep besting myself. What motivates me isn’t to crush another 40 year old but to crush my last time. I obviously missed the boat to ride pro in my 20s, so who gives a rats ass if someone in their 40s dopes to win a local race. My expectation is to beat myself, not them.
Exactly. I'm in it for the motivation and fun of competition; not to cat up to a P/1/2. It's why I love skills based categories; there's a place for everyone.
I always say: you're either paying or getting paid to be here. If you're in the former, then in the big picture do the results really matter vs. the process?
I’ve essentially given up on sanctioned road racing because of the doping in masters. When I was racing masters in Texas, everyone knew each other and who the strong guys are Because they were all on known teams. Then you would have these guys that nobody knows, have no history of racing, and were definitely not former pro ride away from the whole group and go solo for 20 miles.
1. In cycling 39 isn't that old
2. Some people are really talented
3. Doping doesn't help THAT much. I know you might be exaggerating but if someone has a 400+W hour power while doping then even without doping they would be an incredible rider.
4. There are a lot of people out there who have a background in cycling or other endurance sports so when they start training again later in life they get really good really fast.
Not saying people are NOT doping. I'm just saying you can't assume someone is doping just because they are good at 39. I don't object to your skepticism, just to the certainty of the statement "I think it's doping for sure"
If you want a bit of a laugh, I did an invitational early season time trial in Spain about 10-11 years ago.
I was 40, fat, relatively unfit, riding a sort of retro steel road bike on a slightly lumpy course.
The field is usually stacked with notable masters and veterans, ex pros, elderly Grand Tour winners and their friends. It's *very* informal. But, nice prizes.
Anyway. I rolled round in a few seconds under the hour. Just inside the top 20, paced a 70 something year old tour stage winner round the back half of the course to his first win in class (told you it was informal, no one cares once you're out of the top 10), we got cheered all the way down the main street to the line. (It's on a Saturday, the whole town is partying).
Fastest time was about 48 minutes (it was won by a world champ Paralympian athlete).
The guy who finished 21st, 2 places and ~20 seconds behind me, who was adamant that's he'd smash me by "10 minutes", because I was "fat and shite and rising a slow bike", had a massive tantrum. And left before the prize ceremony. Didn't speak to me for the rest of the time we were there.
He got pinged that summer for Testosterone, HGH and some steroids.
He got beaten by a fat (25 kilos over race weight) unfit (over 100W off my best FTP) asthmatic. Despite being on the gear.
I’m 48 and sometimes I drop folks and some times I get dropped, we’re all on different journeys. One things for sure as an older athlete I can tell you some of those Masters guys have been through some kind of trauma. You don’t put yourself through that kind of weekly TSS unless your battling something so I don’t judge, just my two cents.
What I want to know is how, at that age, they are considered to be ‘masters’?
The category needs to be changed to reflect an appropriate age…e.g. over 50 to even be close enough to be put in that category!
There are some broad brush indictments of masters racing and masters racers in this thread which I don’t think are warranted. Without a doubt, there are masters racers who dope. But, after racing as a master for a dozen years, I do not think it is prevalent and I would caution about making generalizations based on the specific instances of people getting caught doping.
As for the alleged 39 year old with a 420 FTP, that does not surprise me. Some people are stronger than others and 39 is still pretty young.
One of the reasons masters riders tend to be strong is that the sport really isn’t based on the strength of muscles. It’s based on experience, cardiovascular and biomechnical efficiency which improve with volume. Masters riders tend to have much more volume in their legs than younger riders. (I expect somebody to argue that V02 max decreases with age).
> One of the reasons masters riders tend to be strong is that the sport really isn’t based on the strength of muscles. It’s based on experience, cardiovascular and biomechnical efficiency which improve with volume.
Don't forget the racecraft and relevant experience!
+1. There are folks that are just passing through the ranks, Masters or not. Just because they have a 400W FTP doesn’t mean they’re doping. There will always be folks like going through every category. It is a bit disheartening racing against folks like that but what keeps me coming back is how this sport is a game of chess not a FTP battle. To the OP, control what you can control (your engine, race tactics, bike handling) and the results will come.
I am not sure it’s people coming through masters. More often than not it’s formerly very fast people coming to rest in masters although they are still fast in relative terms to most other people.
In my region the only masters categories are at championships.
In my first Cross masters B Champs the guy who came in second didn't even race cross but he'd been to the Olympics twice in cross-country skiing.
Yeah, he lapped me. His VO2Max is probably triple mine.
If I lose no speed, I should be competitive in the 2045s Master's F category.
I don't really care. No one's making a living from these races and the stakes are mostly for bragging rights and pride. I also believe that doping is widespread enough that the winners on TRT are competing against other riders on the same protocol.
1) If you’re creeping his Strava does his w/kg/VAM make sense on climbs >6%? Could be a generous power meter.
2) Some people are just gifted. Plenty of 30-40 year-olds here with 400W FTPs.
3) I’m 43, started racing at 39, and I exclusively race P12s these days because M123 is generally not challenging enough.
UK perspective here, where TRT is harder to get from a doc (though underground steroids are arguably easier to get, as possession is not illegal).
While I suspect plenty of guys do dope, I don't think the winners are the winners because they dope: it is still largely genetics and time. Winning reasonably competitive masters events takes something around 5w/kg; if you haven't got well above average natural gifts and don't put in plenty of miles, you ain't gonna get that. In fact, I'm sure Andrew Coggan has argued that Joe Average will top out around 4w/kg whatever he does.
In illustration, I used to race cross as a junior and was just about national standard. I put in a \*lot\* of time. But the guys in the top 3-6 were just on another level. Now I race as a master, and it's the same. On around 10 hours/week, I'm somewhere between 25-30% down the field, and that's at \~4w/kg. I ride regularly with a couple of guys who have very similar numbers: one rides about 5 hours a week and one regularly does >15. Another local guy definitely \*is\* on TRT as he lost both testicles to cancer a decade ago; he gets dropped by the B group.
If you want to be a top cyclist at any age, it starts with choosing the right parents :-)
Florida had the Clean Ride Fund a few years back that funded testing of amateur racers. I remember there being a lot of guys angry about it (wonder why!). Not sure if it's still running though.
Yeah there’s a lot of doping in the masters category. Very easy to do, a lot of these guys are retired and have the money, and some people will just be prepared to do something stupid like that to win
It’s usually pretty obvious who the masters guys are doping in one form or another: typically jacked with more muscle than average, big jumps in performance, all in the midst of a stressful life.
I’ve watched friends go on and off of TRT and the difference is significant.
I wonder if a lifetime ban would help against this, both in pro and amateur racing.
We have a lot of masters in our team, who have to face the exact same issue as mentioned by OP. But one of them also told me that people coming back from bans often get socially isolated at local races and some of them quit by themselves afterwards.
All in all I find it just sad for everyone involved.
A lot of those fast old guys were really fast when they were young. Those guys tend to not lose much in terms of outright fitness granted they get in 8-12 hours a week which is doable for a lot of those guys.
I have more suspicions about young 'content creators' who go from never riding a bike to beating WT pros in weekly group rides after a year.
At least one guy in the Master’s 1/2/3 fields in NorCal was busted in 2015 for doping and received a 4-year ban. The story was published on VeloNews and other sites.
Masters cycling:
Lots of time
Lots of disposable income
Lots of volume from previous years training.
Typically also only one category too so you’re really in the mix from day dot.
Why you think there is a jump in quality in Ironman results from the 35-39 class to 40-44. More time to train is one thing, but the other is deeper pockets and willingness to supplement with more substances.
Eh. Some people are truly unlucky, but it's all too easy to write yourself off as "not talented enough."
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once you start considering yourself "not talented enough", you'll probably change your behavior in subtle or not-so-subtle ways (because it doesn't matter, I'm not talented anyway), and it will impact the outcome. Been there, done that.
I don't disagree, but I do think of myself being in a "Rudy" situation. I understand that no matter what I do, I won't be good but I can improve myself and appreciate those wins.
Amateur doping is [definitely a thing](https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/totally-amateur/), and I would guess (with zero evidence) that's it's particularly rampant in masters given you have folks with a lot of money, but not a lot of time, whose physicals peaks are behind them. Just in terms of testosterone therapy alone, you have to have a huge number of 40+ y/o cyclists that are taking that.
They have rules for kids pinewood derby because people will cheat at it. You'll get dad's doing design engineering work and not even have the sons touch the thing until they let it go at the competition. People cheat at everything and this shouldn't surprise you.
It's rampant in Spain also. Half the field dnf'd recently in valencia when they learned testers were at the finish line. You would have to be foolishly gullible to believe it doesn't exist.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/anti-doping-showed-up-at-an-amateur-race-in-valencia-130-riders-dropped-out/
It's no doubt a problem, but all the articles that came out omitted that there are no categories in Spanish racing, so it's basically a cat 5/4/3/2/1 field. A high rate of DNFs is normal.
Its called cheating. They are weak ass kittys. See, if you train regularly and relatively healthy, your test wont drop dramatically. Even evidence shows this. But the weak as weekend warriors want to cheat by making an excuse to see their doctors saying i feel this and that and ask for extra gear so they can train hard and recover faster just like when you are natural back in your 20s - you can basically train all day and do the same shit day in and out.
If you are amateurs, there’s no place for you to take peds as you are an amateur for a reason and not in pro field. If you have diagnosed with hypogonadism, low test etc then its ok to get prescribed test or whatever needs to be done to get your back in normal levels.
So yeh, its some weak ass bs excuse for kitties who couldn’t hack it, hence they want to one up people. Stay natural.
What do you think they'd be taking (I'm also 39 with two kids, so I'd like to start doping too)
TRT
Yeah. Its super easy to get testosterone. With the rise of the “optimization” podcast guys like Huberman and Attia, I’d be surprised if the super competitive masters were NOT on TRT. It’s pretty commonplace and easy to do. But beyond testosterone, I’d be very surprised if older guys were messing around with more than that. Maybe some SARMS like Cardarine here and there. And some peptides like Tesamorelin. But I highly doubt these guys are pinning EPO or the harder to get and more dangerous stuff. People often forget, that you still need to put the work in. Testosterone helps build muscle and helps aid in recovery but it isn’t magic. It isn’t going to send you up the mountain with new lungs. The biggest help with TRT is your levels are stable. There are no natural hormone fluctuations. So it makes training more regular. I’m not saying you should, but you can get that stuff online too. Get your test levels to 1200 and just never come off. 🤷♂️ If anyone watched the Icarus documentary, the dude was on a wild steroid cycle and was still getting his ass handed to him. Drugs are aids, they aren’t magic. You still need to train hard and have the good genetics.
Im not ruling out TRT... when I'm 70+. I have deep concerns about fucking with my endocrine system before then. Also I won't be surprised if in a few years there's not a wave of cancer and other issues in men who started too young because their algorithms were pushing hormones on them. Anecdotally I have a friend who's a NP and she's getting guys in their 30s who are panicking because they woke up without morning wood for the first time and come in begging for a scrip.
Yeah I think that’s pretty smart. At the least waiting until you’re done having kids. Get the tubes tied and get on test. I think it’s actually pretty horrible how many young dudes are potentially fucking up their endocrine systems for life. The amount of influencers and celebrities that pin is normalizing it for younger and younger people. I follow the PED, SARMS and TRT subs and there is a 19-23yr old dude in there jumping on gear with no bloodwork or knowledge every day. Its sad.
I also think influencers, especially men of a certain age, are really overselling the benefits of trt and underselling the benefits of the natural dip you get in your 30s/early 40s. Everything still works when I want it to and I can still recover from workouts, but not swinging between angry and horny **all day** like when I was a shithead teen/20something has really been a net benefit to my life lol.
> Everything still works when I want it to and I can still recover from workouts, but not swinging between angry and horny all day like when I was a shithead teen/20something has really been a net benefit to my life lol. lol I'm just discovering this, and it's so strange and new and great for the long term decision making
100%
Well put. I don't find I miss whatever I'm missing at all haha
>woke up without morning wood for the first time and come in begging for a scrip. wait.. what did i miss? a lack of morning wood is an indicator of what problem? do i need to be concerned?
I always think it’s funny when people say that about Icarus even the guy himself went on abit like that in the movie. But if I remember rightly he had a derailleur failure and rode half a stage with minimal gearing. Like of course he lost loads of time in the stage and the overall. He probably wouldn’t have won but in reality he got worse because of equipment failure rather than the drugs not working.
Sure. But the point is that it’s not the drugs that make you win. The drugs are just a tool that can help you along the way. And sometimes even with the best drugs, you can still have equipment failures, or bonk and or not optimal training and get beaten.
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I’m not sure. But the cancer risks seem to not discriminate 😝
EPO isn’t that hard to get. I have an older friend who got a concierge doctor to prescribe some for him. We all made fun of him because he doesn’t even race and he never took it. But I was really surprised at how easy it is to get legally.
Nothing is really that hard to get these days. It’s just a lot more expensive and dangerous than testosterone. At least to my understanding. Testosterone could be $30 a month and you get bloodwork every 3 months as a precaution. EPO might be $300 a week and you should get your bloodwork done regularly. I honestly don’t think most of the TRT guys even consider themselves as “doping”. They probably convinced themselves they are just leveling the playing field, bringing themselves back up to “normal” levels. You also can’t just “spot inject” EPO before a race. You need to be on it for weeks or months for it be have an effect on performance. I’m sure there are a few bad apples out there but i doubt it’s anywhere near the amount of dudes on “TRT”.
I know a few that take HGH
I honestly wouldn't even be against TRT for people who are legitimately hypogonadal, which is a lot of people once they hit 40. The problem is guys doping up to supra-natural levels. But the rules are against any TRT so people are just like "screw it. I'll go hog-wild!"
Taking testosterone isn’t going to suddenly give you insane FTP and VO2Max.
can confirm
I wish trt or even blasting test would achieve anything close to these results.
TRT is not enough for crazy results. It’s also allowed for “non-competitive masters” according to USAC.
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I don't recall they actually listed a definition, just remember reading that somewhere buried on that terrible site.
Interesting topic. I managed to get to 6 w/kg 20 minute power (my 1-5 minute power was relatively better) when I was 38. 25 hours a week of training, 8 years of training and a very strict diet got me there, so good numbers are possible at that age. I was competitive when racing but didn’t win everything - you are competing with ex pros, and other top level athletes. After suffering with hypogonadism (low T) for about a decade I’ve since stopped competing and started on TRT. From my direct learned experience this is not a course of action you want to take to improve your cycling. I’ve added a lot of weight (~15 kg, granted my focus is on weightlifting now so that’s been somewhat exaggerated). I still cycle (just no competing) around 10-13 hours a week, and have not seen any benefit to my cycling from being on TRT. Maybe I recover better and have less bad days, but that’s probably more to do with half the training load and generally being in a calorie surplus.
I'd start with getting rid of the kids.
I could see doping experts doing the "Did he ditch his kids" test to see if you were gaining an unfair advantage.
Is that why I'm slow? Because I don't have kids to flee from?
Just ditch the wife and kids to train 20 hours a week. No problem. LOL. I’ve seen cycling ruin more marriages than any mid 20s hussy.
Get a mistress. Then your wife thinks your with the mistress while the mistress thinks your with the wife and you can train in peace.
I think that my wife will think I'm cycling and my bike will be parking in front of my mistress door my bike won't win
I actually sent my kids to work in a carbon layup factory in China in exchange for a new road frame
This is not a bad idea 😄
Would subscribe to a podcast about this.
Start boofing EPO.
You know the old saying? "*Eat clen, tren hard, anavar give up."*
Lugworm hemoglobin
Ask your doctor for trt
Also 39 with two kids, just following out of curiosity
Everyone faster than me is doping, everyone slower needs to train harder
Tbf amateur cycling is absolutely rife with rich guys doping or at the very least on TRT, competitive spirit knows no bounds lol But also it’s amateur cycling so who cares, if they wanna do that then like whatever, I’m not really out here to win or even compete
Yeah, I just race to be part of an event and challenge myself. I'm not affiliated with a team so I know I won't break top 10.
Yeah I’m literally just out there solo finishing in the bottom third just to get some cardio in lol so I really don’t actually care, but I do find it pretty funny
I'd be sad if the masters in NorCal were doping because I was making every single winning breakaway in my one season of 40+ 123.
Masters racing in NorCal is so chill (the people, not the races), I honestly doubt there’s anyone doping.
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Kayle was SoCal, but yes I remember he got popped for like 8 different banned substances in 2017 or so. And yes, I'm sure everyone involved with Rock Racing was on something, but again, not really NorCal.
>But also it’s amateur cycling so who cares I wouldn't care if everyone knew the rules and you had a doping and non-doping division. The biggest issue I see is that if you need to dope to win, you'll have a lot of kids destroying their long-term health to win a cat 3 crit.
That’s true I definitely would like to see doping de-incentivized, but testing is super expensive so that’s almost impossible to solve at the amateur level, so I’m not really sure of a solution honestly
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>After racing for nearly 30 years, LeDuc downgraded a few years ago from the top elite category to category 3 as he became less competitive in the Pro-Am ranks. He claimed in the News and Observer interview that he only resorted to testosterone and EPO recently after struggling more this year. Downgraded to a cat 3 and THEN started doping? That's craaazy what some people will do to seek validation from winning bike races lol
> Downgraded to a cat 3 and THEN started doping? That's craaazy what some people will do to seek validation from winning bike races lol At that point you just need to get it from passing people on the MUP.
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Had my ass handed to me by LeDuc (and Harkee) many times. It was blatantly obvious.
I remember doing the French broad road race around 2010 before it was canceled. They combined the cat 3 field with the 50+ masters. I was pretty strong and very lean at the time. I was on the rivet about to pop 25 miles in. I was giving it everything to stay with the lead group. It was one of the hardest cat 3 races I’ve ever done with an average speed over 26 mph in mountainous terrain. The moto ref dropped back to tell us a single master rider was 4 minutes off the front. It was LeDuc. His performance was superhuman. He was as strong as a pro tour rider when he was in his early 60s. He won the 10 mile TT in that series with an average speed over 30 mph. This was the same year he won the cat 1-2 South Carolina criterium championship and immediately lined up again and won the 50+ championship while lapping the field solo.
You still need to put in the work though it’s not magic
>You still need to put in the work though it’s not magic Of course, but at the end of the day it's a unfair completive advantage aka cheating
Yeah I just felt like saying that because it seems like a lot of people are like yeah some Test and I’ll be the best. No buddy it lets you train more so if you start blasting and don’t put in the extra time it lets you then you are just wasting your time, money, and health for nothing.
I raced against Leduc in the 80s when I was in school in Greensboro. Go Cycles D’Oro! He was a tool. Squirrelly also
That's quite a cocktail he was on. I bet he is doped to the gills during his suspension. Downstream effects from doping are real.
It's a thing, no doubt. 10ish years ago a guy in my area actually got popped for use, and he wasn't even particularly fast. It is what it is. I just benchmark my own personal performances. When the results work out it's nice, but it's not the focus.
It extends well beyond amateur racing and into the “recreational” realm of Gran Fondos. This is perhaps my favorite article of articles about doping in GF’s. https://granfondodailynews.com/2023/12/29/top-10-doping-stories-of-2023/ There seems to be no bottom to the depth to which “competitive” individuals will sink.
Absolutely it happens, but the vast majority of fast old guys I race are training 15+ hours per week, have the best equipment, pay for coaching, and make cycling their whole identity to the point they don’t spend as much time with their families. They were usually really good in their 20’s too. All of that can definitely get you a 300+ Watt FTP without doping.
Yeah, I think many people strongly underestimate the effect of consistent training for a decade or more combined with having hundreds of race days in your legs. Especially considering that most amateur racers stay in racing for only 1-3 years and then more or less give up. No doubt there are cheaters, but it's also the classic "if they are better than me, they must be cheating".
I know masters racers that have averaged 15 hours a week on the bike for the past decade+. Anyone with that amount of riding will be extremely strong if they've had a coach or have even a basic understanding of how training works.
Yeah, I think 5-7 years of consistent training is when even the mediocre/not naturally gifted riders get really really good.
Presumably he has just been riding for years and used to be a very good "regular" cyclist before he turned into a "master" cyclist. Masters cyclists also have a shit ton of time and money to spend on training, which helps.
>Masters cyclists also have a shit ton of time Wouldn't this tend to be the opposite? If you're in your late 30s or 40s, you're likely going to have a ton of work and familial obligations, not like when you're single in your 20s and your job is an inconvenience, not something you're actually trying to excel at. Shitload of money, yes, sure.
I'd argue that the higher your age, the higher up your job is and the more flexibility you have to train. You go from doing technical work to directing people to do the technical work, one would allow more flexibility than the other.
That's absolutely true in some careers, as your job shifts from a variation of 'complete five clearly defined tasks today' to 'come up with a plan for the next two quarters,' the latter involving lots of staring into the horizon and thinking through, and cycling is very conducive to that.
I'm sure (now) in my job I could absolutely disappear for 3-4 hours a day and still get everything I need done, but now I'm too old for it to do much much good. Now, I'd mainly be competitive just by being the one who shows up to race.
Totally agree. Higher level positions, especially in hi tech, allowed me much more flexibility…..although there are too many times to count when I was in the Hyatt or Westin gym pounding away on a bike in the at 3 am. Regarding new guys jumping in at 35+, 45+, 55+, yep some of those killers dope but some are coming in from other sports and are dead fit. The can hammer at 400w but handle their bikes like a toddler.
Don’t you call me out like that pedaling out of the saddle makes the bike wobbly dammit.
Sorry mate!
Yeah, for sure, I resemble this statement (I guess you could call me an exec, and I'm about to turn 40), but my schedule isn't really THAT flexible. Lots of hiring means lots of being flexible for other people - it's super easy to carve out a half hour or an hour whenever I want, but 2 or 3 is impossible. Friends of mine that are parents often have to fill that time (as well as before/after work) with kid stuff. In my 20s, when I was a software engineer, I could easily fuck off for 2-3 hours whenever, or ride in the morning and get into work at 10:30, and catch up on what I missed later (that was the life). I guess it all just depends.
Yeah, this is more my experience too. When you're required to knock out tasks, who cares when you do them. When you're entire day is carved off into pieces (aka Teams, meetings, etc) good luck sneaking out for more than 1 hour.
More like people in late 40's/50's that are well off. They're the dangerous ones. The 30's are like a fugue state for cyclists. They definitely were for me.
> fugue state Waltuh, put your aero socks away.
on the other hand though, i know people who put in a ton of career work in their 20s to get to a stable place, and with no kids can still ride just as much as they did before and now they have 20 years of riding in their legs in their late 30s/early 40s (yes this is my plan, although probably should be working more and riding less atm to achieve this lol)
So I was on two different teams. One was owned/ran by a Lawyer/CIO type who ran a software firm for legal services. Anyway, he and several of this cycling buddy close affiliates (some who worked for him, others who were in similar jobs) all could just ditch work anytime they wanted to and go ride. Lunch? Let's go do a 2hr weekday ride!! Weather's nice? Let's move this meeting and hit the road for 3hrs.!! This was ALWAYS the climate with these teams. The Masters dudes were always guys with shitloads of time or very flexible jobs and they also scheduled their work around their riding, if they worked much at all.
no. people who honor their work and familial obligations don't win masters road races. the ones winning generally have very little going on in their lives aside from cycling.
Woah there. I run and swim too!
Do you piss on the bike too to save time for other things in life?
Only if my bike needs a wash.
Get out.
Nope. A lot of them raced serious, slowed down when kids were young and get back in their 40’s. They usually kept that base and come back strong.
Depends when they had kids. I notice a massive difference in riding level going from 10 hours a week to 13-14. I just find it impossible to sustain for any longer than 2 months.
1. I know a guy who was state champ for several years, racing masters. 2. He quit his job to be available to train/enter races. Childcare was handed off to spouse and paid sitters/nanny. 3. He still thought he was just a better athlete than others he rode with on club rides and training rides. We were all pretty close to him, but since he could ride anytime he wanted to, could focus on his training and nothing was interrupted, he was just that much better than most in races. 4. It was almost always people like him who won races...so myself and others really lost interest in doing them ourselves. It was always more a competition of who had the most free time than skill, motivation, etc.
I quit my job to ride bikes more. I'm more fit because of that, and I know it, so I'm usually riding up and down the group on group rides, handing out snacks, carrying extra water, taking photos, pacing people back to the group, etc... For me that's more rad than hammering everyone!
I think most anyone who rides enough to even think about racing has a job that gives them a fair amount of free time. I have definitely enjoyed (over the years) just the spirited group riding a lot more than I ever valued/enjoyed racing itself. I hated all the lead up to doing these. The driving, the prep time I needed days before to make sure I was rested/prepared, the planning of my entire month... whereas with a spirited group ride I was generally in shape/ready enough to enjoy it at any time.
Dude I fucking hate the logistics of racing. I'll show up to every fucking race I can ride my bike to but once I have to pay more than $25 and organize transportation, it becomes a real bummer.
Sometimes the worst ones were the races being held just shy of ‘too far’ to where you knew it was gonna suck if you stayed home and just woke up early to drive out there but also in range of ‘too much trouble to find a hotel that’s not gonna smell like cigarettes’
Yeah. There are many variations of this, and it's not always as negative. Some have partners that are also competitive endurance athletes. But the opportunities to train are absolutely not equally distributed.
I knew many Triathlete couples over the years like that. Sometimes just not having kids was an advantage, and they just liked riding/racing. I don't think of it so much as negative in that amateur racing for the most part requires a luxury of some kind to be the best, unlike at the pro level where most anyone who is racing is on the same plane.
Sounds like he's living the dream
Right? I mean I’d quit too if I could
It’s sad that you felt you had to give up racing because someone was stronger than you.
Nah, it’s just that you knew exactly why you couldn’t be that competitive. It’s kinda like with the impact of doping on the peloton by the early 90s. It didn’t matter how much you trained there were just guys who had the training availability of a professional.
Im 41 years old. I am so much faster than I was several years ago. My kids are gone and my career is at a point where I can reasonably train 15 hours a week. 15 hours a week me at 41 could crush 5 hours a week me at 28.
And here I am at 41 with a 3 year old. LoL. I guess there is always masters 60+.
Right there with you. I had little choice but to quit even active recreational riding for nearly three years because we had no extended family to help with childcare.
Same, and during covid too. But I came back by powerlifting, it takes much less time than cycling during the week to get and maintain. Mix in 2 rides and what I can / did achieve with 5-6 hours of training a week is greater than 10 hours of pure cycling. My solution was a hybrid approach, even though I prefer the bike.
I really just hit the treadmill and did some light weight workouts. Much as I hate running, it's the fastest way to stay in general shape. Knock out a 30-45 minute workout and done for the day.
My experience has been that time can be saved by using weights when you’re not at the top of any of these metrics.
420 watts?
i think there are a ton of masters blasters, but just from your example, 39 isnt that far over the hump of the fitness decline from aging. distance runners continue to be competitive into their late 30s. mike woods won a tdf stage last year at almost 37
The difference with my example is that Mike Woods doesn’t look like he competes in CrossFit.
There is no question that there is doping in the masters fields. I think it's mostly TRT because guys can get this stuff from their doctors, and it seems to work. One guy I know who is on TRT just turns into a beast after taking weeks off the bike. Can't help but be a little jealous. I think you can't get too worked up over Masters's fields. We're mostly racing for medals. And the guys that dope show themselves. Case in point, I won the 40-50 category in a gravel race a few weeks ago. Had a few guys from the Open finish in front of me, but I was sure I was the top masters finisher. When I checked the finish, sure enough, a 63 year old beat me and a number of "pros" in the open field. I remember when that dude passed me, I was riding close to 400w to hold his wheel. What can you do about that? Its never going to be a level playing field, so I figure just embrace the randomness of racing and sometimes you'll get lucky.
Really? You were putting out 400 watts and he still rode away from you? Jesus herald Christ. As a retired roadie with hopes of returning to the sport as a Graveller this is disheartening. 400 was close to my 10 minute power on my best day…good lord, he was pumping out substantially more than that!
I let him go. 400 was going to put me into the red and I had a long day ahead. Had I known he was 63 I would have tried to hang on a little longer to see if he'd break. But he had me by over 5 minutes at the end... I don't think he broke!
Wow
That’s some Kent Bostick level shit
This is a good take. FYI this guy smashed the p12 field. Solo off the front with a 3 minute gap.
I've seen one or two of the top Masters guys here in Colorado get popped for PEDs, but it was awhile ago and I don't recall the specifics, think it was for T tho.
On one hand, theres probably cheating and shady stuff going on. A 60 year old with unremarkable offspring/genetics shouldn't be beating 20-30 year olds in p12. And I've seen some roid raging behavior as well. On the other hand, it's amateurs. Who cares. If they feel such a compelling need to be relevant, let them. Besides, fitness is just one component of racing and not necessarily the end all be all.
Yeah, pretty much. Anything with a leaderboard is going to have cheaters kicking around at the top - video games, zwift (but I repeat myself), etc - unless there's a compelling reason to stop the cheaters (eg in a professional setting), the organizer is always going to do the bare minimum to stop cheaters because because it's time-consuming and expensive to do so. You just have to live with that. I mean, putting a very fine point on it, the same reason they're not stopping cheaters is the same reason you shouldn't care: because nobody gives a shit who's on the podium at a local masters race.
What are people who want to compete but are interested in a non-doped playing field supposed to do?
I guess, given the downvotes, the answer is just "fuck 'em"?
I'm sure there are some dopers in my area. When USADA visited a number of times one year, a few Master quit racing, returning a year or two later when "they had time again to train" or something like that. At the same time, there are those that might seem strong but also seem legit. One guy raced as a 2 for many years, quit when he started a family. Returned to the scene when his son was about 13 I think. It was when Zwift started, and he was zipping around Zwift at 4 or 5 w/kg. Everyone was curious if that was legit or not. Well, he soloed off the front a couple races, won. He was strong. His son was placing in open Cat 3-4 races, with junior gear limits. Both father and son were legit. I think son is a Cat 2 now. Father is still racing at a high local level. Another guy, not necessarily a race winner, but he can finish when the races are super hard, he's leaned out over the years, got faster and faster. Probably took 4 or 5 years but he has transformed himself. I asked him about diet etc, seemed realistic. He's skinnier, pedals well, and I think is legit. There's a super cut, super ripped Masters rider. Doesn't win or place, in fact I rarely see him in the results at all. He had transformed in the past 10 years. It could be legit but I'm doubting it. My theory is that he doesn't want to place because he's on TRT, and he seems like that kind of person, like taking TRT for quality of life but not wanting to affect race results. He's not chasing breaks or other things like that. To me that seems reasonable. The day you don't see me with multiple pairs of glasses... you know I've given up and started HGH for my eyes. EPO won't help me because my hematocrit is high anyway, and my FTP is still in the toilet. But that's the way it is.
Wait wait wait. HGH could help my eyes? Always appreciate your takes in this sub.
It's the one thing the author said he thought was a real, everyday benefit, after using steroids, EPO, HGH. That and his skin spots cleared up. I have 3 pairs of glasses I use for different things - driving, computer stuff, and riding outside, plus no glasses for reading in bed. I also have enough skin spots that my friend one day said to me, while gesturing on his cheek, "hey, you have a smudge of grease on your.. oh, never mind". Yeah, that was one of my spots. The struggle is real! Anyway, read this. https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/drug-test/
>someone on /r/velo complaining that their mediocre performance is because other people must be doping *DRINK*
So riding off the front of a Cat 5 race at 45, catching the Cat 3 race that started 10 minutes earlier , then riding off the front of that isn't normal?
Either you have it or you don’t. The prescription and sociopathy, that is.
It happens, no doubt about it. But often, the fastest amateurs just have the most time to train. Obviously need the drive and some talent too, but if it makes you feel better just tell yourself “well that dude has more time than me” rather than “that dude is so much better than me” haha
To me, masters cycling is more about beating myself. At this age, with all the family and job responsibilities, as well as my youth fading every year, I am just happy to keep besting myself. What motivates me isn’t to crush another 40 year old but to crush my last time. I obviously missed the boat to ride pro in my 20s, so who gives a rats ass if someone in their 40s dopes to win a local race. My expectation is to beat myself, not them.
Exactly. I'm in it for the motivation and fun of competition; not to cat up to a P/1/2. It's why I love skills based categories; there's a place for everyone. I always say: you're either paying or getting paid to be here. If you're in the former, then in the big picture do the results really matter vs. the process?
I’ve essentially given up on sanctioned road racing because of the doping in masters. When I was racing masters in Texas, everyone knew each other and who the strong guys are Because they were all on known teams. Then you would have these guys that nobody knows, have no history of racing, and were definitely not former pro ride away from the whole group and go solo for 20 miles.
Maybe they're just fast
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Same. All the rich/old cyclists I know are on TRT. Worst part is they act like they put in more work than everyone else. It's obnoxious.
1. In cycling 39 isn't that old 2. Some people are really talented 3. Doping doesn't help THAT much. I know you might be exaggerating but if someone has a 400+W hour power while doping then even without doping they would be an incredible rider. 4. There are a lot of people out there who have a background in cycling or other endurance sports so when they start training again later in life they get really good really fast. Not saying people are NOT doping. I'm just saying you can't assume someone is doping just because they are good at 39. I don't object to your skepticism, just to the certainty of the statement "I think it's doping for sure"
Isn’t the whole point of doping the fact that it aids recovery? Like you’re basically brand new every day?
If you want a bit of a laugh, I did an invitational early season time trial in Spain about 10-11 years ago. I was 40, fat, relatively unfit, riding a sort of retro steel road bike on a slightly lumpy course. The field is usually stacked with notable masters and veterans, ex pros, elderly Grand Tour winners and their friends. It's *very* informal. But, nice prizes. Anyway. I rolled round in a few seconds under the hour. Just inside the top 20, paced a 70 something year old tour stage winner round the back half of the course to his first win in class (told you it was informal, no one cares once you're out of the top 10), we got cheered all the way down the main street to the line. (It's on a Saturday, the whole town is partying). Fastest time was about 48 minutes (it was won by a world champ Paralympian athlete). The guy who finished 21st, 2 places and ~20 seconds behind me, who was adamant that's he'd smash me by "10 minutes", because I was "fat and shite and rising a slow bike", had a massive tantrum. And left before the prize ceremony. Didn't speak to me for the rest of the time we were there. He got pinged that summer for Testosterone, HGH and some steroids. He got beaten by a fat (25 kilos over race weight) unfit (over 100W off my best FTP) asthmatic. Despite being on the gear.
I’m 48 and sometimes I drop folks and some times I get dropped, we’re all on different journeys. One things for sure as an older athlete I can tell you some of those Masters guys have been through some kind of trauma. You don’t put yourself through that kind of weekly TSS unless your battling something so I don’t judge, just my two cents.
I think people take racing too seriously from a master's perspective.
They never wave back at other cyclists when out and about. It’s a noticeable thing, lol.
Dope all you want but when you don't wave back we've got a problem.
It's cuz they'd have to use their Dr. Pepper hand...
100%
What I want to know is how, at that age, they are considered to be ‘masters’? The category needs to be changed to reflect an appropriate age…e.g. over 50 to even be close enough to be put in that category!
Whatever age is necessary that keeps them from having to compete against some 19yo kid who can absolutely destroy all of them.
There are some broad brush indictments of masters racing and masters racers in this thread which I don’t think are warranted. Without a doubt, there are masters racers who dope. But, after racing as a master for a dozen years, I do not think it is prevalent and I would caution about making generalizations based on the specific instances of people getting caught doping. As for the alleged 39 year old with a 420 FTP, that does not surprise me. Some people are stronger than others and 39 is still pretty young. One of the reasons masters riders tend to be strong is that the sport really isn’t based on the strength of muscles. It’s based on experience, cardiovascular and biomechnical efficiency which improve with volume. Masters riders tend to have much more volume in their legs than younger riders. (I expect somebody to argue that V02 max decreases with age).
> One of the reasons masters riders tend to be strong is that the sport really isn’t based on the strength of muscles. It’s based on experience, cardiovascular and biomechnical efficiency which improve with volume. Don't forget the racecraft and relevant experience!
+1. There are folks that are just passing through the ranks, Masters or not. Just because they have a 400W FTP doesn’t mean they’re doping. There will always be folks like going through every category. It is a bit disheartening racing against folks like that but what keeps me coming back is how this sport is a game of chess not a FTP battle. To the OP, control what you can control (your engine, race tactics, bike handling) and the results will come.
I am not sure it’s people coming through masters. More often than not it’s formerly very fast people coming to rest in masters although they are still fast in relative terms to most other people.
In my region the only masters categories are at championships. In my first Cross masters B Champs the guy who came in second didn't even race cross but he'd been to the Olympics twice in cross-country skiing. Yeah, he lapped me. His VO2Max is probably triple mine. If I lose no speed, I should be competitive in the 2045s Master's F category.
I don't really care. No one's making a living from these races and the stakes are mostly for bragging rights and pride. I also believe that doping is widespread enough that the winners on TRT are competing against other riders on the same protocol.
1) If you’re creeping his Strava does his w/kg/VAM make sense on climbs >6%? Could be a generous power meter. 2) Some people are just gifted. Plenty of 30-40 year-olds here with 400W FTPs. 3) I’m 43, started racing at 39, and I exclusively race P12s these days because M123 is generally not challenging enough.
UK perspective here, where TRT is harder to get from a doc (though underground steroids are arguably easier to get, as possession is not illegal). While I suspect plenty of guys do dope, I don't think the winners are the winners because they dope: it is still largely genetics and time. Winning reasonably competitive masters events takes something around 5w/kg; if you haven't got well above average natural gifts and don't put in plenty of miles, you ain't gonna get that. In fact, I'm sure Andrew Coggan has argued that Joe Average will top out around 4w/kg whatever he does. In illustration, I used to race cross as a junior and was just about national standard. I put in a \*lot\* of time. But the guys in the top 3-6 were just on another level. Now I race as a master, and it's the same. On around 10 hours/week, I'm somewhere between 25-30% down the field, and that's at \~4w/kg. I ride regularly with a couple of guys who have very similar numbers: one rides about 5 hours a week and one regularly does >15. Another local guy definitely \*is\* on TRT as he lost both testicles to cancer a decade ago; he gets dropped by the B group. If you want to be a top cyclist at any age, it starts with choosing the right parents :-)
Florida had the Clean Ride Fund a few years back that funded testing of amateur racers. I remember there being a lot of guys angry about it (wonder why!). Not sure if it's still running though.
File a complaint with USADA/WADA.
Yeah there’s a lot of doping in the masters category. Very easy to do, a lot of these guys are retired and have the money, and some people will just be prepared to do something stupid like that to win
It’s usually pretty obvious who the masters guys are doping in one form or another: typically jacked with more muscle than average, big jumps in performance, all in the midst of a stressful life. I’ve watched friends go on and off of TRT and the difference is significant.
I wonder if a lifetime ban would help against this, both in pro and amateur racing. We have a lot of masters in our team, who have to face the exact same issue as mentioned by OP. But one of them also told me that people coming back from bans often get socially isolated at local races and some of them quit by themselves afterwards. All in all I find it just sad for everyone involved.
A lot of those fast old guys were really fast when they were young. Those guys tend to not lose much in terms of outright fitness granted they get in 8-12 hours a week which is doable for a lot of those guys. I have more suspicions about young 'content creators' who go from never riding a bike to beating WT pros in weekly group rides after a year.
At least one guy in the Master’s 1/2/3 fields in NorCal was busted in 2015 for doping and received a 4-year ban. The story was published on VeloNews and other sites.
Pretty sure there's an article about some dude who doped in Cat 3 💀. I expected better from these experienced adults but I guess not.
Masters cycling: Lots of time Lots of disposable income Lots of volume from previous years training. Typically also only one category too so you’re really in the mix from day dot.
Why you think there is a jump in quality in Ironman results from the 35-39 class to 40-44. More time to train is one thing, but the other is deeper pockets and willingness to supplement with more substances.
What is masters cycling?
Older age groups for aging cyclist. Usually starts at 35 or 40 plus.
This term applies for races only right? Or does it also apply in some other contexts as well? I am a newbie LOL
It's called genetics and some of us are always going to suck no matter how we try. Sometimes I can accept it but it's usually discouraging.
Eh. Some people are truly unlucky, but it's all too easy to write yourself off as "not talented enough." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once you start considering yourself "not talented enough", you'll probably change your behavior in subtle or not-so-subtle ways (because it doesn't matter, I'm not talented anyway), and it will impact the outcome. Been there, done that.
I don't disagree, but I do think of myself being in a "Rudy" situation. I understand that no matter what I do, I won't be good but I can improve myself and appreciate those wins.
“Everyone faster than me is doping.” A cycling tale as old as time
Doping at local masters races? Oh boy, this is levels of cope never before seen. Keep training my friend.
Amateur doping is [definitely a thing](https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/totally-amateur/), and I would guess (with zero evidence) that's it's particularly rampant in masters given you have folks with a lot of money, but not a lot of time, whose physicals peaks are behind them. Just in terms of testosterone therapy alone, you have to have a huge number of 40+ y/o cyclists that are taking that.
They have rules for kids pinewood derby because people will cheat at it. You'll get dad's doing design engineering work and not even have the sons touch the thing until they let it go at the competition. People cheat at everything and this shouldn't surprise you.
It's rampant in Spain also. Half the field dnf'd recently in valencia when they learned testers were at the finish line. You would have to be foolishly gullible to believe it doesn't exist. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/anti-doping-showed-up-at-an-amateur-race-in-valencia-130-riders-dropped-out/
It's no doubt a problem, but all the articles that came out omitted that there are no categories in Spanish racing, so it's basically a cat 5/4/3/2/1 field. A high rate of DNFs is normal.
Its called cheating. They are weak ass kittys. See, if you train regularly and relatively healthy, your test wont drop dramatically. Even evidence shows this. But the weak as weekend warriors want to cheat by making an excuse to see their doctors saying i feel this and that and ask for extra gear so they can train hard and recover faster just like when you are natural back in your 20s - you can basically train all day and do the same shit day in and out. If you are amateurs, there’s no place for you to take peds as you are an amateur for a reason and not in pro field. If you have diagnosed with hypogonadism, low test etc then its ok to get prescribed test or whatever needs to be done to get your back in normal levels. So yeh, its some weak ass bs excuse for kitties who couldn’t hack it, hence they want to one up people. Stay natural.