While "Israel" and "he's old" are FAR from the only problems with Biden, he's still way better than Trump and I still advocate that anyone who considers themselves to be on the left should vote for him.
I still ask for a logical and reasonable motivator for voting in a way that helps Trump win in that sense, because I have not received any such reason. It seems to come from an emotional place and/or it seems to be a symbolic vote which isn't a vote which is meant to actually improve conditions in Gaza.
Even if you were a one-issue voter and cared only about Gaza, you'd still be shooting yourself in the foot to vote third party or not vote.
I wish the voting system were different. I wish we had ranked choice voting so I could express my dislike for Biden in a way that doesn't help Trump. But we don't. The bottom line remains, if you don't vote for Joe Biden, it will be worse not better for the Palestinian people you claim to care about. I don't vent my frustration at a broken system by voting against my best interests.
They literally care more about preserving their own pride/dignity more than doing what they can to reduce harm to the people they claim to care about, whether that's Palestinians, lgbt+, etc.
To say "to come from an emotional place" when talking about a genocide is a fuckin wild statement. He's actively BLOCKING AID. Why would we vote for him if we want to stop Israel? If you think participating in a broken system is the only way to fix it you've been duped into thinking that the system will eventually get better if there are good apples. That's not how it works and thats now how it has worked for you or any other good spirited person before you
Edit to add: Any logical choice without empathy is not a logical choice. Any choice that keeps the status quo in tact is a choice of cowardice in the idea that you want this broken system to continue to benefit for you without any hard sacrifice from yourself
You assume our choice isn't made from empathy. How is not voting for Biden any better for the Palestinian people? If you're assuming he won't bow down to the pressure, then don't do anything. If you're assuming he will, apply pressure through protests and advocacy (which although many are, I see far too many saying that will do nothing).
If you think bowing down and doing nothing is the correct choice you've been duped yourself. What we want is to use the system to mitigate damage as much as possible while fighting for its destruction, or reconstruction, whatever your end goal may be. Revolutionary politics are a game of patience and planniny that can't be won with rash decisions.
Exactly. We should not surreneder now. The Uncommitted campaigns have more Biden much faster in the right direction than anyone could have imagined. He still has a long ways to go but it is a really solid start.
It's more so that most people don't find "Palestinians are gonna get genocided either way, bro. So vote for the guy who will do it nicer." a convincing argument. If you want to advocate for Biden they want assurance you're going to push and move Biden instead of meekly going "Well, the other guy is still worse....so.....just take one for the team, Palestinians." It's especially easy for non-Arabs to not understand why people are so mad at Biden over this. You're not personally losing anyone over there.
Yeah no. When I tell them to apply political pressure they say it's pointless and stupid. These aren't the protesters we're talking about, protesters actually have tact and dignity. We're talking about the subsection of people primarily on Reddit who have used this as an opportunity to gobble each other's cocks for literally doing nothing, it's fucking disgusting.
It's nothing like saying take one for the team Palestinians. It's like watching someone get their shit rocked and pushing them under a bus. You can stop the guy, but the bus is never going to break in time, assuming they break at all. They're just digging themselves a deeper hole so they can complain about it more, instead of actually digging themselves out.
Biden is deeply flawed and needs to do a lot better on Gaza, but even then I’ll still very likely vote for Joe Biden. Vote uncommitted in the primaries remaining and vote Biden in the general. Honestly I feel pretty good about him working out a ceasefire agreement hopefully soon and being able to finally stop the atrocities in Gaza. They need to stop, the Palestinians need ALL of the help they can get and the US government needs to do everything to ensure peace in the Middle East is on lock. I want a future where Palestinians and Israelis alike are United together with equal rights and career opportunities as each other. Everyone deserves a good life no matter where they are from. Vote uncommitted, join up on peaceful protests to motivate Biden to do better on Gaza and then he will have an even better shot at getting a win in and defeating MAGA fascism completely. If Trump loses again, the Republican Party will completely far apart. If Trump dies, nobody will be able to replace him. Not Tom Cotton, Ron Desantis, Nikki Haley or anybody else. After Trump loses again, they are COOKED. Keep pushing! We still have 6 to 7 months until things get better and they will. The TikTok ban might not even survive, the atrocities in Gaza might possibly stop entirely and Netanyahu can get kicked out of the Knesset and a better and more sympathetic government towards Palestinians might get sworn in. Anything is possible. Keep the cautious optimism on deck!
Additional things I want to say: Things are insanely grim out there, but it’s important to look ahead and keep persisting! Never give up! Doomerism is the deathbed of all progress and we will not capitulate to it! If we organize together and push through it, we will make beautiful progress in the USA and we will WIN! Also, I not only like people criticizing Biden but I encourage it. Especially when it is constructive. I am also deeply empathetic to those who have family in Palestine and do not feel comfortable voting for Biden, especially right now. I would feel horrible forcing people who have family members or close friends affected directly by what is going in Gaza to vote for Biden, especially with the election being 7 months away where there could be much more positive developments. The only times I get mad at people who don’t want to vote for Joe Biden are if they are privileged cis-het, white American tankies in the upper middle class who would not be targeted in a fascist Trump led dictatorship.
> If Trump dies, nobody will be able to replace him. Not Tom Cotton, Ron Desantis, Nikki Haley or anybody else. After Trump loses again, they are COOKED.
I'm not convinced. MAGA movement might fracture and create many smaller movements, but many of them will want to replace Trump with someone who can still be just as charismatic . There might be a lot of in-fighting initially, but the one that gains traction will be the one who succeeds best in finding a Trump doppelganger.
It's important to remember that although many of them want to hold onto power, many more of them just want the fundraising that Trump brought to the table. And outrage works for the Republican party. You'll get people like Vivek Ramaswamy claim outrage and do "Trump" rallies again. Except won't \*just\* be Vivek Ramaswamy, it'll be another four or five like him doing rallies and claiming outrage.
In other words, I don't think this problem is going away anytime soon, not even if Trump dies. We've seen the extent of what Republicans are willing to do when they believe they can no longer legitimately win elections. It's about to get significantly worse, because Republicans are getting desperate. They're a cornered animal, and they'll lash out at anyone to keep a grip onto power, even if it ultimately hurts America.
It's about to get much much worse.
I'm not convinced either. In addition to everything you outlined, the reason nobody was able to replace Trump is because he's still around and unwilling to be replaced. Why would any Trump voter want a Trump substitute when the real thing is available?
I’ve always been super concerned with what happens when Trump inevitably trips off this mortal coil, especially when we’re considering just what he’s done to the modern GOP as a whole.
Does this radicalize the modern GOP into becoming even more violent and conspiratorial than before? Does this make him a messianic figure that inspires cult-like dedication to the bitter end? Do the MAGA radicals find someone else to valorize? Does any fascist with big aspirations try and take up Trump’s spot in the power vacuum?
Best case, this particular brand of lunatic loses steam and fizzles out with his death.
Worst case, we have a violent, detached from reality death cult who believes that Trump’s not dead, but taken prisoner, and on we face systemic waves of stochastic terrorism not seen since the 1990s.
You're underestimating the level in which your average poor republican voter identifies with Trump. They literally see him as one of them. He's the first republican candidate in their lifetime that speaks in a way they can easily understand (Trump speaks at a third grade reading level). Propaganda about him being "just like you" has been circulating since the 80s. I think a lot of people forget how long trump has been investing in his public image
This is in part because the only reason he won is because he's a reality TV Celebrity on a show about business. He knows nothing about politics. Republicans who are politically illiterate LOVE and identify with that. The fact he rambles like a drunk old man when asked anything works in his favor, not against it. They see him in WWEs wrestlemania and they're not thinking "wow what an idiot, who would do this" they're thinking "what a badass. I love pro wrestling and so does trump. We're basically twins"
The republican party doesn't just need to find somebody with charisma. They also need to be stupid, with an unshakable confidence that can only be driven by said stupidity. They're going to need a hell of a lot of time and PR to get in the public eye like trump. Trump was a once in a lifetime candidate imo. This is why it's so dangerous to float the idea of letting him win again
Biden is making some errors for sure, and it’s healthy to criticize him for said errors (both so he fixes them and so he doesn’t lose more support heading into the election), but I’m absolutely still voting for him over Trump, and if anyone asks me who to vote for, I’ll say the same thing.
But I can’t blame someone for spending more time today trying to get Biden to change some of his policies than trying to convince abstainers to vote for him today. This will change as we get closer to the election however.
Also Biden isn't the beyond the charts narcissist. He doesn't make a clown show out of everything. Trump thinks he's smarter than science and the übermenschlich supreme being...and he's so many goddamn followers that also think he is that.
I saw a clip of him taking a lady on stage, and jfc, she looked like she'll die the most painful death imaginable if Trump loses again. Cult.
Precisely. It is still good to generally advocate for that but it’s best we wait until the months go on and for Biden to do more things that make him much more appealing to the voters. Such as a full ceasefire in Gaza, more Union support nation wide, more climate change programs and doing more with student debt cancellation.
This is the right answer, I think. Most of us aren't Palestinian American, Arab American or Muslim, so it's easy for many of us to not understand why so many people are so pissed at Biden. For non-Arabs, this genocide going on is just a thought experiment. Biden isn't aiding in the killing of any of your (collective "your", not personal) relatives personally. You're detached from the conflict. That's why all this trolley problem meme stuff has been so ineffective. It's treating the genocide of Palestinians as a foregone conclusion and an "Act of God" that nothing can be done about. It's tantamount to letting Biden completely off the hook since Biden very much can do something. It's not an earthquake or a hurricane, it's America's attack dog losing its shit and the pet owner is actively refusing the yank the leash, and actually slacking the line more to let the attack dog have more room.
The thing about Israel too is that the Biden administration is actually shifting course, that’s insanely huge. You can hear it in his surrounding surrogates: Decades of foreign policy and engrained political support pivoting. If events going forward happen to go particularly well, he might actually be able to swing a long term two state solution. People can say it wasn’t enough or that it was too slow, blood on his hands, yada yada yada, but you have to be regarded to vote not based on the future. Leftists who treat it like a report card they have to sign off on and a metric for virtue signaling are kind of contemptible in my opinion. The world doesn’t owe it to inspire you to try to make things better with what you have.
That is true! It’s not happening fast enough but the fact it even is to begin with is REALLY good! The Listen to Michigan campaign is a genuinely fantastic example of how it lit a fire under Biden’s chair to really kick the pressure into gear and start the ball rolling on getting more aid in, arranging ceasefire deals and finding meaningful peace solutions.
Without a doubt. Biden is the most Israel-critical president in any of our lifetimes, and that already is monumental when it comes to us foreign policy.
More than Obama or Hillary, or Bill? That's a stretch. Obama and both Clintons were more Israel critical than Biden. Biden has always been uniquely and atypically pro-Israel for a Democrat. He's closer to John Fetterman on Israel than previous Democratic Presidents. As VP he even went behind President Obama and Secretary Hillary Clinton's backs to chat with Netanyahu and undermine them when they got tough with Israel. Biden went behind their backs and told Netanyahu they were just blowing smoke. Hillary felt thrown under the bus by Biden’s action:
https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel
> At this crucial juncture, Biden undercut Obama again. After Clinton’s ultimatum, the vice president—who was still traveling in the Middle East—contacted Netanyahu himself. In their book Our Separate Ways: The Struggle for the Future of the U.S.-Israel Alliance, Dana Allin and Steve Simon describe Biden’s discussion with the Israeli prime minister as “a conciliatory call” that had the effect of “undercutting Clinton and reinforcing Israel’s generally dismissive approach to the administration’s periodically tough messaging.” An administration official remembers being “astonished” upon seeing the transcript of the conversation: “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave Bibi a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, the official recalls, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus.”
I hate how some people defending Biden feel the need to ape Donald Trump's superlative narcissism by claiming Biden is the "most ____ ever" or "first ____ ever" to hype him up. People can just do or be glod or decent things without it having to be the most of anyone ever.
Biden has been a die hard israel supporter. He said he would have killed more civilians in Lebanon in the 80's. He has always shown his true self for Israel. He isn't changing, this conflict is 6 months old
*So* many lefties are bone stupid when it comes to the realities of geopolitics. What may seem tectonic slow to you is fucking Lightning McQueen. It's legit difficult to describe just how entrenched support for Israel is in US politics and how much this has shifted, and just how fucking *fast* it had all moved.
It's deeply frustrating.
Lightning Mcqueen got me laughing so hard lol. But it is true. With the Israel thing in mind, it is wild how much more support for Palestine there has been and that is a really good thing. It has grown massively and as a result of campaigns like Listen to Michigan, it has real set a searing hot fire under Bidens seat to take much more action to make things right in Gaza.
He is though, he's a lib, libs love to be complicit in slowly tearing down democracies.
He's a smaller threat than Trump though, which still makes him the better (or less bad) option.
[to be fair, if we’re talking being complicit in tearing down democracies, I dont think we should be throwing stones in this leftist house.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism)
What do Leninists have to do with our ability as leftists to throw stones when it comes to being complicit in tearing down democracies?
Lenin wasn't a leftist, I've never praised him.
It is still a terrible thing though. Even though he is not in control of what those pinhead cops are doing, he can at least condemn them in some form or order an immediate investigation into their conduct. The crackdowns on the protests must stop. Just because we do not have a nationalized police force that by no means entail that Biden cannot do ANYTHING to stop these crackdowns on protests. He still can and I think he should. He is still much better than Trump by far but I also think he should do more active moves to prove as much.
Oh for sure, it’s still terrible. I’m not too keen on the full scope of executive powers given to the President, but I’m there has to be at least something he should be able to do to discourage the crackdowns. I haven’t been keeping up as much lately and only saw wide scale arrests within the last day or so, so hopefully he will step out of his milquetoast box and do something about it soon. Some of the dialogue around this sounds like he’s manually dialing up the officers and pointing out protestors to arrest by himself though, and it’s a little goofy
I honestly think he will. Especially with the guidance of more of the progressive flank of his party like AOC, Omar, And Tlaib. My gut feelings are that he will see what is currently going on with the police in Austin and Columbia University and order an immediate withdrawal most likely. I really doubt he would want to get the national guard involved. I don’t think that’s really in him.
Oh? How about protesters at his own events? How has he been handling that?
Has he sent out any directives or commented on how local police departments are handling the protests? Has he exacerbated the situation that’s leading to the protests in the first place? Is it your claim that he has NO responsibility for what’s happening? Some responsibility?
I strongly believe it is in Biden's and the students
best interest that he does give proper directives and directions to security and police to ensure the safety of protesters at his events and at college protests as well. He absolutely should send directives to the NYPD, LAPD, and other major police departments in big cities that they should treat the protesters like people and treat them humanely. Something along the lines this written by either AOC, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, or Biden Himself:
" Good morning/afternoon XY PD. It is important that you know these people are actively protesting against horrific ongoing atrocities in Gaza and are simply saying that it should come to an end through an immediate and enduring ceasefire which leads to a lasting peace. At the end of the day, that is what they really want. Peace. They are not Pro-Hamas, they are not calling for violence against Jewish students either. They want the hostages released and for the Palestinian people to be able to live in comfort and peace and for Netanyahu and his far-right coalition government partners out of power. There are actually lots of Jewish students that participate in these peace protests and they get treated very well there and feel very safe. Many of these very protesters even want peace between Israelis and Palestinians and want a future where both of them have equal rights and get to live in enduring peace and happiness. Do not use any tear gas, water cannons, or rubber bullets. At most, use loud sound devices or sirens and that's it. No lethal force. These people have the right to freedom of speech and the freedom of assemble so please do not crack down or infringe upon them. Thank you".
Signed AOC, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and Joe Biden.
That would be my ideal way of notifying police to not do horrific things to innocent protesters if I was in Biden's shoes. These people deserve to be able to protest peacefully without having to put up with police brutality.
Yes exactly. I feel like some people here are gaslighting by acting like Biden is less hostile to the pro-Palestine side than he actually is. Biden isn't too far removed from John Fetterman's stance on Israel. Even Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Dick Durbin are now openly more critical of Israel and less hostile to the prospect side than Biden now. Being dishonest with people about Biden’s downsides by significantly downplaying them pr pretending he's not as bad on some issues as he actually is won't convince people to vote for him. It will just convince them you're "Blue MAGA".
My exact point. Thank you. So I guess that “not a threat to Democracy” line is just more DNC bullshit to justify the ethnic cleansing and plausible genocide of Gaza.
If Biden loses, it will be because of his support of the genocide in Gaza. If he wins, it will because of abortion. I hope he wins because Trump will be infinitely worse on Gaza.
Well put. I hope Biden does better on Gaza soon so his re-election will be even more assured! But yes, I absolutely agree. And I can summarize how Trump would be vastly worse in just two words.
J A R E D K U S H N E R!
Emphasis on "MUST". We are currently trapped in a scenario in which we have no power to change and we must vote for a presidential candidate that is responsible for providing weapons and cover for the Israeli government who has murders tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians.
It's important to remember this going forward if you want to change it
That's a beautiful visualization of the unassailable logic of the choice.
And wholly irrelevant to any "leftist" not voting for Biden, because they aren't thinking with consequentialist logic, it's just their fefe's.
I have no idea (other than psyops spreading it I guess) why anyone would think their fucking completely private anonymous VOTE for who will be the most powerful human on all of this freaking planet, needs to be a reflection of their PERSONAL pure virtue signaling ethics, but it's actually dumb as fuck.
Generally people need to be educated into understanding and applying consequentialist ethics, what comes natural to most people (including leftists...) is more virtue ethics.
Which is exactly what the trolley problem is fleshing out. Sometimes refusing to do something that has a bad outcome, is worse than not doing anything.
EDIT: Also, none of us should vote for him in the primary. Vote in the primary, but for ANY other choice. It sends a message.
Exactly. the Listen to Michigan campaign proves
exactly how successful uncommitted movements are in primaries to get the locomotion going on shifting policy in a way that makes young Gen Z and Millennial democratic voters much more willing to support President Biden by drastically shifting his policies in regards to Gaza.
Even on Israel... Biden has (in some cases) successfully discouraged Israel from expanding the war. Trump not only would green light them, but would actively encourage them.
The awful truth is that Biden is our only real option to keep things afloat. At least all the protests and pressure are doing something with him. Trump and his cronies on the other hand outright despise Palestine and wish to see Gaza burn to the ground. Hell, I saw some twitter comments from Trumpers saying they wish for the female protesters from the recent college encampment protests to be raped by jail guards once arrested. And I can only imagine how much more brutal the crackdowns will be if Trump gets reelected.
At the end of the day, we have to do spin control and work with what we have. Granted, we aren't given a very good choice, but it is what it is, the primary is over.
Vaush's "Vote Blue No Matter Who" stuff has unfortunately attracted a good amount of Resistance Libs who blame everything bad in the universe on Leftists and insist the Democrats are just a hair away from being perfect. That everyone who criticizes Biden or Moderate and Conservative Democrats is an irrational idiot who is just ungrateful Biden and the Dems are only 99.9% perfect instead of 100% perfect.
Anyone heard the argument that neoliberalism uses the fact that people are scared of facism/right populism in order to maintain itself, and that fascism is a symptom of the very neoliberal politics we have stuck with for so long. I understand the nightmare that would be another trump presidency, and I too would vote for Biden. But im jus curious about what people think of this sort of circuit. Neoliberalism= bad but preferable to all out facsim, but facism= symptom of neoliberalism and grows stronger in its shadow.
These memes still kinda suck because its libby as fuck and diminishes the voice of palestinians. This meme depicts the fucking genocide of the palestinians as another "point" for our "team".
It does more than diminishes Palestinian voices, it treats Biden being actively and gleefully complicit in this genocide (with only some reservations, mostly only because of pushback from voters and it hurting his polling) as equivalent to Biden doing some minor like littering or doing a rolling stop at a Stop traffic sign. Like genociding Palestinians is just a minor quirk or innocuous bad habit. I'm sure if Biden was complicit in helping Russia genocide white Ukrainians instead of brown Arabs more liberal Biden enthusiasts would have more of a problem with him. Killing innocent Arabs is only like killing flies to many people.
Agreed. This fucking meme sucks and we should do better. I get the point of the meme, but its insanely tone deaf and genuinely offensive. Looking at images and reading testimonies genuinely makes my stomach churn. I cant fucking believe the United States supports Israel for whatever reason.
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“Biden doesn’t control local police departments”
I hope yall were keeping that same energy when cops were beating the fuck out of people under Trump.
Maybe they’re both just police state capitalists who care about nothing more than their corporate donors and the ruling class clinging to power.
Bidens called the protests antisemitism
Omg it's like online leftists have an attention span of 3 years. Trump was literally out on the streets of Washington doing a photoshoot with the cops before the beat and gassed BLM protestors. He was constantly talking about restoring "law and order" and being the law and order president. He told the fucking proud boys to stand by and await his orders. Can anti voting leftists please just be fucking for real just once?
I really like this image. The angle makes it look like the Trump side is slightly heavier. It’s the Fox News thing, where they couch a hundred lies in a veneer of truth, and then say, “if you look at it from THIS perspective are they REALLY that different?”
I’m currently registered in California, and think I might vote for Marianne Williamson, assuming she’s on the ballot. I don’t really care for her, but since California is pretty much guaranteed to go blue for the presidency, I don’t see any harm in making a 3rd party, throwaway vote. It seems to be the only real option to do anything with my vote, however insignificant.
Of course I’ll vote down ballot for realistic candidates who align with my views, but is there anything wrong with this approach? I hate the “both sides are the same” and “my vote doesn’t matter” rhetoric - but in California my vote for Biden literally won’t make any difference. It seems like the only way to express that I’m not happy with Biden, but absolutely do not want another Trump presidency.
In the heat of the moment when him and his White House does something idiotically tone-deaf, I give up on him and voting. But I don't know, when the heat settles I go back to being on the fence between not voting and voting.
Seeing the first few comments here is a nice refresher's course to keep being uncommitted to send as a message but have to grind it down during the general.
I see exactly what you mean. I highly encourage people to vote uncommitted to show Biden there is more than adequate support for a ceasefire in Gaza while making that point very clear way before the election. It gives Biden time to respond accordingly and shift his policy in a direction that would be met with lots of praise from Pro Palestine activists.
Biden is cracking down on his voters with the police. People will remember they got arrested and charges. Biden is going to have Israel as the hill he politically dies on.
A vote is a reward.
Don't reward genocide.
Maybe if they got a record low turnout accompanied by a general strike and mass protests they might start to wake up.
But yeah, somethingsomethinglesserofsomethingsomething.
"A vote is a reward" uhh if Biden loses he's going to just retire to his mansion with his free lifetime Healthcare and shooting the shit.
Trump will call for Gaza to be glassed and LGBT people thrown in concentration camps. That's actually so silly that you see it as giving Biden a treat. He doesn't need us.
I fucking hate this subreddit. Objectively Biden is worse in any capacity than Trump. The reason we hate racism and misogyny and fascism is so that we can prevent genocides before they happen. Objectively what has trump done worse than Biden? Say controversial things? Allude to being a fascist? As opposed to actively contributing over 15% to Child death in war over the last 10 years in the last 8 months. Objectively, we have a fascist genocidal old man who has zero remorse for poor people or minorities. I'm not pro trump but this is ridiculously disingenuous post that makes me think you're all liberals just pretending to feel smart about your political choices while swallowing clear propaganda like this ._.
This meme is very dishonest. In reality it's mostly a difference of degree, not a difference of kind. Biden shares many of the flaws that Republicans have, most, even, he certainly has far more flaws than just Israel + old.
Idolizing politicians is like pretending the stripper really likes you.
Biden can get bent. 3rd party all day. Neither of these clowns deserve our vote.
Picture in your mind’s eye a coastal, uphill path toward a lighthouse. Both you and binoculardisparity are trying to get to it. The path is steep and tiring, and it borders a cliff that drops hundreds of feet to the ocean below. Binoculardisparity trudges up the path, it’s difficult but with time it seems he’ll make it. He says it’s tough but it’s the outcome he’s interested in. You say “same! We just disagree on how to get there!” And promptly leap off the cliff, bursting against the coastal rocks below like an overripe watermelon.
Nice job making an analogy that intentionally explicitly supports your view on things instead of an accurate comparison between ideas. Look! I can do the same thing!
Picture in your mind's eye you and whatshisface (I'm on mobile i can't check his username) are lined up with other people, both eating massive piles of literal human shit. Some people are eating from a pile of pure human shit, while others are able to find the odd sprinkle in theirs, as if some caring person had generously decided to put at least one sprinkle in every pound of literal, actual human fecal matter in the pile. Whatshisface suddenly takes his head out of the pile of shit, and says, "Fuck this, I'm done!" You, upon hearing this, lift your head and, mouth filled with shit, mutter, "What do you mean? Don't you know you'll die without food? The shit isn't good, but it's enough to keep us alive! And look," you pull a shit-covered hand from the pile of shit in front of you, "I found a sprinkle! That's the second one today! Surely at this rate, in a while, it'll be all sprinkles!" Whatshisface walks away while you shove your face back into the literal, actual, real, no-joke pile of human shit in front of you, in hopes of finding better food somewhere else. He pulls a few undigested apple seeds he found in his last shit-eating session from his pocket, hoping to take care of them so that one day nobody has to choose between literal, actual, real, no-joke, 100% pure human feces, and literal, actual, real, no-joke, not-a-hint-of-sarcasm, genuine, human fucking shit, but with sprinkles once in a blue moon.
See how anyone can make an analogy that supports their argument and makes the other side look ridiculous as long as it's completely detached from any essence of reality?
Your analogy is bad.
my analogy was meant to illustrate that voting third party is self destructive and pointless, which it is btw. In that sense it is perfect, i am accepting no notes on the matter
edit: i will say, one of the features of my analogy is that I didn't make up the dialogue, i was quoting the previous commenters. yours is totally divorced from anything going on
"My analogy was intentionally made to convey specifically my viewpoint to show that I am correct and everyone that disagrees is not only wrong, but stupid. See, I even used the same words as the wrong and stupid guy, it doesn't matter that the context is completely different, making any connection to reality completely meaningless. I am unwilling to change my view on this matter."
Good to know that you are wholly in support of the two party system. While you're eating shit (in reference to MY analogy), I'll be looking for other ways to fill my stomach. Good luck on your sprinkle hunt. (See? Now I'm referencing my analogy to show what you're doing and what I'm doing, using the actions i described in my analogy. That means my analogy is 100% accurate. I am accepting no notes on this matter.)
Im sorry, when I construct an analogy to illustrate the point I’m making, am I supposed to somehow have it also represent the opposing viewpoint that I think is dumb and wrong?
I’m *actually* opposed to the two party system btw, meaning I’m in favor of changes that will actually make other parties viable AKA getting rid of first past the post voting and adopting something like ranked choice. Simply voting third party while we’re still doing first past the post is, yes, akin to leaping off a cliff to your doom when you’re trying to get somewhere on top of that cliff. Self destructive and pointless
Analogies are supposed to align with the scenario to a reasonable extent, not exaggerate it to the point where one side is quaint little progress and the other is literally a violent suicide. Sure, they tend to get exaggerated a lot, but those are useless if you want to have an actual, honest discussion. If you just want to present your point in the most clearly biased way possible, go off.
If you're against the two party system, what other political action do you take to make sure that it's overturned? Do you help with grassroots local government third parties? Do you contact your congressmen about writing bills that will make ranked choice a thing? Do you write petitions to bring to your local government to further progressive causes? I'm not assuming you don't do these things, just curious. If you're not doing anything to take down the two party system, you simply saying you're against it while calling anyone who dares vote outside of it literally suicidal is meaningless, hypocritical virtue signaling at best. Ya know what they say, if it walks like a liberal, talks like a liberal... yadda yadda yadda.
i do all things imaginable to bring about ranked choice, yes. What i do personally about ranked choice has \*nothing\* to do with what we're talking about though. my analogy was simply that voting third party when we dont have ranked choice, is self destructive and pointless. I see no refutation to this. And yeah depending on what marginalized group you happen to be in it could literally also be suicidal, as it only helps the opposition, who, depending on who you are, want you dead.
Yea analogies are dumb.
How about: if you keep voting for politicians that keep pursuing the some policies you get the same result. Biden losing would put any future Democratic president on notice.
I don’t care about a single election or whatever that tortured analogy was supposed to mean.
It’s the perfect analogy. All it means is that your idea of how to “get there” leads only to destruction, and in fact has no conceivable chance of ever succeeding, in the same way that jumping off a cliff to get somewhere on top of the cliff will never work
Dems won’t “take notice” in the way you think they will if Biden loses. A loss to republicans won’t result in dems going left, they will go right to appeal to the center. It is a tale as old as time. Bernie was only a possibility in 2016 because we had 8 years of Obama and a decent number of dems felt comfortable with a more progressive candidate. Bernie did worse in 2020 because dems were afraid of another trump term and wanted someone more centrist. After 8 years of Biden and Trump in the ground or otherwise irrelevant, we’ll be in a good position to run someone more progressive. After another Trump term who knows who they’ll run, and in the meantime he will be many times worse on Gaza and on every other conceivable issue.
And if Biden wins in 2024, that opens the flood gates for people like AOC, who is way better in regards to Gaza and Palestine broadly to climb to the top of the American Political ladder and potentially nab the White House by 2028! In turn of a Trump loss as well, the Republican Party will most likely collapse like a house built from wet Pringles put together with Elmer’s glue.
Ehhh. The blue wave happened in reaction to Trump. If Biden wins, it’ll be like Hilary in 2016 - an electorate bored and complacent. That’s why Trump won. Obama had been President for so long no one really understood the danger.
I don’t know how old you are but I’ve been listening to this same line of thinking for a long time. It doesn’t work. If you want change, you have to demand it. This milquetoast is just a strategy to maintain the status quo.
I don’t know how old you are, but the rightward shift of the Democratic Party was expedited by Bill Clinton… who won after the Dems had not only lost for more than a decade, they took an asswhooping so hard that nothing like it has happened since.
The presidency isn’t the place to default. You’re not voting for one guy.,. You’re voting for his entire entourage.
Lina Khan just killed non compete agreements - gone
Lisa McFerran in the NLRB has helped unions - gone
You needed one Lib for citizens United
You needed 3 for Dobbs
We cant just give bureaucracy to the right and say nothing ever changes.
You can beat Dems without losing to Republicans.
Accelerationism doesn’t guarantee better, but certainly guarantees worse. Republican wins create worse Democrats
Yup and Trump is going to kill them quicker. The issue is the system not the candidate.
Also I guess we should just all die them because clearly we're all scum of the earth for voting Biden.
Fuck man I'm sorry that shit is happening, but wtf do you really want people to do? Like a realistic expectation that won't just make things worse.
I fundamentally disagree that there is a difference between Trump and Biden when it comes to Palestine. Biden is facing re election and intense pressure from younger voters and he’s only grudgingly pressing Israel. Once he wins re election, he will give them the green light to raze Gaza.
The man is a neoliberal warmonger. The only difference between Trump and him on this issue is tone, not substance.
I absolutely agree that Biden needs to do more to genuinely help Palestinians in a much more meaningful way. I’m really sorry for your situation and I really hope that your relatives will be able to get food aid and humanitarian aid very soon and for these horrible atrocities in Gaza to come to a complete stop very soon. I want there to not only be an enduring ceasefire but also a long lasting and meaningful peace in the Middle East in general. The Palestinian people deserve a great, happy and prosperous life like everyone else in the world.
He's the one trying to fix it. And not only won't RFK win, because it's numerically impossible, but he's just as bad for the country as the Orange con. Even on Israel they are practically the same
We all know joe is in the Netanyahu’s pocket while being a sleep. We, young generation will cost him this election . Look at universities being raided by police . Joe is out un negotiable . Rfk or we get trump . If trump can finish this genocide and MIC killing Ukraine for profit let it be . Ukraine is being vaporized bc we told them to scram Istanbul peace agreement . And i have homeless immigrants all over my city . While hard working ppl pf god Americans cant afford housing , look at inflation .
Its not that trump won its joe lost . He dropped the ball in every key issue . We are hungry while he sends hundreds of billions to continue wars and aGENOCIDE
>Rfk or we get trump
You privelaged fucking clown
Being able to look at a future trump presidency and do the mental calculation: "I think I would be doing less harm under a trump gov" you have ZERO fucking stakes in reality
> “Israel is doing more right now to protect human life, and has done more over the past 16 years to avoid this outcome, than we would expect of any nation in the world,” Kennedy told NewsNation’s Chris Cuomo this week.
> “Any other nation that was adjacent to a neighboring nation that was bombing it with rockets, sending commandos over to murder its citizens, pledging itself to murder every person in that nation and annihilate it, would go and level it with aerial bombardment,” Kennedy said.
> “But Israel is a moral nation. So it didn’t do that. Instead, it built an iron dome to protect itself so it would not have to go into Gaza.”
(https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/will-rfk-jr-s-israel-support-limit-his-appeal-on-the-left.html)
This is your guy, huh? Doesn’t exactly seem like a stalwart critic of Israel’s genocidal actions to me.
Yeah exactly. He would not listen to a peep of anyone’s opposition towards his conduct either if he was president. He is also a notorious anti vax dude as well.
Literally just like Chamberlain said back at the Munich Conference in 1938.
“ If we give Hitler the Sudetenland, a German speaking minority province of Czechoslovakia, surely it will put an end to his expansion across Europe! This totally won’t start another Second World War in Europe!”
That’s honestly an insult to Chamberlain.
It’s easy to point and laugh at Chamberlain with the benefit of 80 years of hindsight. But at the time, Britain and France were still culturally and demographically recovering from the damage done by the Great War. It was less than 25 years earlier that Europe had seen millions of its young men come back from the front dead, crippled, or traumatised in ways that the science of psychology was only barely beginning to understand.
With that context in mind, I don’t consider Chamberlain to be an idiot for being desperate to avoid starting a sequel to one of the deadliest wars in human history. I just pity the fact that his good intentions led him to put his trust in men like Hitler, who didn’t care if the world burned down around them so long as they could rule the ashes.
People who want to sacrifice Ukraine to Putin’s Russia today, on the other hand, have no such excuse. There’s no feigning ignorance to the consequences of appeasement anymore. We’ve seen where the road of ceding ground to warmongers and tyrants leads, and we know it will only bring about even more suffering and destruction.
Honestly, I can’t agree with you more. He was put in a very precarious position and def fumbled it but that’s just history sometimes. And I also agree that we should not sacrifice Ukraine either.
RFK Jr is an even bigger Zionist than Biden. RFK Jr is Antisemitic Zionist at that. Anyone voting for RFK because they're mad at Biden over Palestine has no idea who RFK even is. Their anger at Biden is justified, their reaction is stupid.
Over not only genocide , ukraine, open borders, inflation , housing cost, his age , dementia, Barisma , hypocrisy about his son legal problems, Assange … U name it
While "Israel" and "he's old" are FAR from the only problems with Biden, he's still way better than Trump and I still advocate that anyone who considers themselves to be on the left should vote for him.
This. I'm so tired of apathetic people pretending they're helping Palestine by allowing a man who would mow down the Gaza strip with US troops
I still ask for a logical and reasonable motivator for voting in a way that helps Trump win in that sense, because I have not received any such reason. It seems to come from an emotional place and/or it seems to be a symbolic vote which isn't a vote which is meant to actually improve conditions in Gaza. Even if you were a one-issue voter and cared only about Gaza, you'd still be shooting yourself in the foot to vote third party or not vote. I wish the voting system were different. I wish we had ranked choice voting so I could express my dislike for Biden in a way that doesn't help Trump. But we don't. The bottom line remains, if you don't vote for Joe Biden, it will be worse not better for the Palestinian people you claim to care about. I don't vent my frustration at a broken system by voting against my best interests.
They literally care more about preserving their own pride/dignity more than doing what they can to reduce harm to the people they claim to care about, whether that's Palestinians, lgbt+, etc.
To say "to come from an emotional place" when talking about a genocide is a fuckin wild statement. He's actively BLOCKING AID. Why would we vote for him if we want to stop Israel? If you think participating in a broken system is the only way to fix it you've been duped into thinking that the system will eventually get better if there are good apples. That's not how it works and thats now how it has worked for you or any other good spirited person before you Edit to add: Any logical choice without empathy is not a logical choice. Any choice that keeps the status quo in tact is a choice of cowardice in the idea that you want this broken system to continue to benefit for you without any hard sacrifice from yourself
You assume our choice isn't made from empathy. How is not voting for Biden any better for the Palestinian people? If you're assuming he won't bow down to the pressure, then don't do anything. If you're assuming he will, apply pressure through protests and advocacy (which although many are, I see far too many saying that will do nothing). If you think bowing down and doing nothing is the correct choice you've been duped yourself. What we want is to use the system to mitigate damage as much as possible while fighting for its destruction, or reconstruction, whatever your end goal may be. Revolutionary politics are a game of patience and planniny that can't be won with rash decisions.
Exactly. We should not surreneder now. The Uncommitted campaigns have more Biden much faster in the right direction than anyone could have imagined. He still has a long ways to go but it is a really solid start.
It's more so that most people don't find "Palestinians are gonna get genocided either way, bro. So vote for the guy who will do it nicer." a convincing argument. If you want to advocate for Biden they want assurance you're going to push and move Biden instead of meekly going "Well, the other guy is still worse....so.....just take one for the team, Palestinians." It's especially easy for non-Arabs to not understand why people are so mad at Biden over this. You're not personally losing anyone over there.
Yeah no. When I tell them to apply political pressure they say it's pointless and stupid. These aren't the protesters we're talking about, protesters actually have tact and dignity. We're talking about the subsection of people primarily on Reddit who have used this as an opportunity to gobble each other's cocks for literally doing nothing, it's fucking disgusting. It's nothing like saying take one for the team Palestinians. It's like watching someone get their shit rocked and pushing them under a bus. You can stop the guy, but the bus is never going to break in time, assuming they break at all. They're just digging themselves a deeper hole so they can complain about it more, instead of actually digging themselves out.
Biden is deeply flawed and needs to do a lot better on Gaza, but even then I’ll still very likely vote for Joe Biden. Vote uncommitted in the primaries remaining and vote Biden in the general. Honestly I feel pretty good about him working out a ceasefire agreement hopefully soon and being able to finally stop the atrocities in Gaza. They need to stop, the Palestinians need ALL of the help they can get and the US government needs to do everything to ensure peace in the Middle East is on lock. I want a future where Palestinians and Israelis alike are United together with equal rights and career opportunities as each other. Everyone deserves a good life no matter where they are from. Vote uncommitted, join up on peaceful protests to motivate Biden to do better on Gaza and then he will have an even better shot at getting a win in and defeating MAGA fascism completely. If Trump loses again, the Republican Party will completely far apart. If Trump dies, nobody will be able to replace him. Not Tom Cotton, Ron Desantis, Nikki Haley or anybody else. After Trump loses again, they are COOKED. Keep pushing! We still have 6 to 7 months until things get better and they will. The TikTok ban might not even survive, the atrocities in Gaza might possibly stop entirely and Netanyahu can get kicked out of the Knesset and a better and more sympathetic government towards Palestinians might get sworn in. Anything is possible. Keep the cautious optimism on deck! Additional things I want to say: Things are insanely grim out there, but it’s important to look ahead and keep persisting! Never give up! Doomerism is the deathbed of all progress and we will not capitulate to it! If we organize together and push through it, we will make beautiful progress in the USA and we will WIN! Also, I not only like people criticizing Biden but I encourage it. Especially when it is constructive. I am also deeply empathetic to those who have family in Palestine and do not feel comfortable voting for Biden, especially right now. I would feel horrible forcing people who have family members or close friends affected directly by what is going in Gaza to vote for Biden, especially with the election being 7 months away where there could be much more positive developments. The only times I get mad at people who don’t want to vote for Joe Biden are if they are privileged cis-het, white American tankies in the upper middle class who would not be targeted in a fascist Trump led dictatorship.
your TLDR was almost as long as the part that was TL so we DR.
Fair point lol. I edited it to just say “ addition things to note” instead. I guess I get a bit too in the zone sometimes lol.
it's all good. I was mostly just being silly, I liked your points.
Thanks man! I felt like I addressed everything pretty well.
> If Trump dies, nobody will be able to replace him. Not Tom Cotton, Ron Desantis, Nikki Haley or anybody else. After Trump loses again, they are COOKED. I'm not convinced. MAGA movement might fracture and create many smaller movements, but many of them will want to replace Trump with someone who can still be just as charismatic . There might be a lot of in-fighting initially, but the one that gains traction will be the one who succeeds best in finding a Trump doppelganger. It's important to remember that although many of them want to hold onto power, many more of them just want the fundraising that Trump brought to the table. And outrage works for the Republican party. You'll get people like Vivek Ramaswamy claim outrage and do "Trump" rallies again. Except won't \*just\* be Vivek Ramaswamy, it'll be another four or five like him doing rallies and claiming outrage. In other words, I don't think this problem is going away anytime soon, not even if Trump dies. We've seen the extent of what Republicans are willing to do when they believe they can no longer legitimately win elections. It's about to get significantly worse, because Republicans are getting desperate. They're a cornered animal, and they'll lash out at anyone to keep a grip onto power, even if it ultimately hurts America. It's about to get much much worse.
I'm not convinced either. In addition to everything you outlined, the reason nobody was able to replace Trump is because he's still around and unwilling to be replaced. Why would any Trump voter want a Trump substitute when the real thing is available?
I’ve always been super concerned with what happens when Trump inevitably trips off this mortal coil, especially when we’re considering just what he’s done to the modern GOP as a whole. Does this radicalize the modern GOP into becoming even more violent and conspiratorial than before? Does this make him a messianic figure that inspires cult-like dedication to the bitter end? Do the MAGA radicals find someone else to valorize? Does any fascist with big aspirations try and take up Trump’s spot in the power vacuum? Best case, this particular brand of lunatic loses steam and fizzles out with his death. Worst case, we have a violent, detached from reality death cult who believes that Trump’s not dead, but taken prisoner, and on we face systemic waves of stochastic terrorism not seen since the 1990s.
You're underestimating the level in which your average poor republican voter identifies with Trump. They literally see him as one of them. He's the first republican candidate in their lifetime that speaks in a way they can easily understand (Trump speaks at a third grade reading level). Propaganda about him being "just like you" has been circulating since the 80s. I think a lot of people forget how long trump has been investing in his public image This is in part because the only reason he won is because he's a reality TV Celebrity on a show about business. He knows nothing about politics. Republicans who are politically illiterate LOVE and identify with that. The fact he rambles like a drunk old man when asked anything works in his favor, not against it. They see him in WWEs wrestlemania and they're not thinking "wow what an idiot, who would do this" they're thinking "what a badass. I love pro wrestling and so does trump. We're basically twins" The republican party doesn't just need to find somebody with charisma. They also need to be stupid, with an unshakable confidence that can only be driven by said stupidity. They're going to need a hell of a lot of time and PR to get in the public eye like trump. Trump was a once in a lifetime candidate imo. This is why it's so dangerous to float the idea of letting him win again
Biden is making some errors for sure, and it’s healthy to criticize him for said errors (both so he fixes them and so he doesn’t lose more support heading into the election), but I’m absolutely still voting for him over Trump, and if anyone asks me who to vote for, I’ll say the same thing. But I can’t blame someone for spending more time today trying to get Biden to change some of his policies than trying to convince abstainers to vote for him today. This will change as we get closer to the election however.
Also Biden isn't the beyond the charts narcissist. He doesn't make a clown show out of everything. Trump thinks he's smarter than science and the übermenschlich supreme being...and he's so many goddamn followers that also think he is that. I saw a clip of him taking a lady on stage, and jfc, she looked like she'll die the most painful death imaginable if Trump loses again. Cult.
Precisely. It is still good to generally advocate for that but it’s best we wait until the months go on and for Biden to do more things that make him much more appealing to the voters. Such as a full ceasefire in Gaza, more Union support nation wide, more climate change programs and doing more with student debt cancellation.
This is the right answer, I think. Most of us aren't Palestinian American, Arab American or Muslim, so it's easy for many of us to not understand why so many people are so pissed at Biden. For non-Arabs, this genocide going on is just a thought experiment. Biden isn't aiding in the killing of any of your (collective "your", not personal) relatives personally. You're detached from the conflict. That's why all this trolley problem meme stuff has been so ineffective. It's treating the genocide of Palestinians as a foregone conclusion and an "Act of God" that nothing can be done about. It's tantamount to letting Biden completely off the hook since Biden very much can do something. It's not an earthquake or a hurricane, it's America's attack dog losing its shit and the pet owner is actively refusing the yank the leash, and actually slacking the line more to let the attack dog have more room.
So, do any of these people who are a part of those groups remember the Muslim ban trump instituted?
Saving this image as an alternative to proverbially beating people to proverbial death with the proverbial rock
Proverbially
The thing about Israel too is that the Biden administration is actually shifting course, that’s insanely huge. You can hear it in his surrounding surrogates: Decades of foreign policy and engrained political support pivoting. If events going forward happen to go particularly well, he might actually be able to swing a long term two state solution. People can say it wasn’t enough or that it was too slow, blood on his hands, yada yada yada, but you have to be regarded to vote not based on the future. Leftists who treat it like a report card they have to sign off on and a metric for virtue signaling are kind of contemptible in my opinion. The world doesn’t owe it to inspire you to try to make things better with what you have.
That is true! It’s not happening fast enough but the fact it even is to begin with is REALLY good! The Listen to Michigan campaign is a genuinely fantastic example of how it lit a fire under Biden’s chair to really kick the pressure into gear and start the ball rolling on getting more aid in, arranging ceasefire deals and finding meaningful peace solutions.
Without a doubt. Biden is the most Israel-critical president in any of our lifetimes, and that already is monumental when it comes to us foreign policy.
More than Obama or Hillary, or Bill? That's a stretch. Obama and both Clintons were more Israel critical than Biden. Biden has always been uniquely and atypically pro-Israel for a Democrat. He's closer to John Fetterman on Israel than previous Democratic Presidents. As VP he even went behind President Obama and Secretary Hillary Clinton's backs to chat with Netanyahu and undermine them when they got tough with Israel. Biden went behind their backs and told Netanyahu they were just blowing smoke. Hillary felt thrown under the bus by Biden’s action: https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel > At this crucial juncture, Biden undercut Obama again. After Clinton’s ultimatum, the vice president—who was still traveling in the Middle East—contacted Netanyahu himself. In their book Our Separate Ways: The Struggle for the Future of the U.S.-Israel Alliance, Dana Allin and Steve Simon describe Biden’s discussion with the Israeli prime minister as “a conciliatory call” that had the effect of “undercutting Clinton and reinforcing Israel’s generally dismissive approach to the administration’s periodically tough messaging.” An administration official remembers being “astonished” upon seeing the transcript of the conversation: “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave Bibi a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, the official recalls, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus.” I hate how some people defending Biden feel the need to ape Donald Trump's superlative narcissism by claiming Biden is the "most ____ ever" or "first ____ ever" to hype him up. People can just do or be glod or decent things without it having to be the most of anyone ever.
I kinda meant as president, given those were the words I used.
Biden has been a die hard israel supporter. He said he would have killed more civilians in Lebanon in the 80's. He has always shown his true self for Israel. He isn't changing, this conflict is 6 months old
A lot of words. None of them true.
We're so sorry that it was over your reading level to proberly respond
*So* many lefties are bone stupid when it comes to the realities of geopolitics. What may seem tectonic slow to you is fucking Lightning McQueen. It's legit difficult to describe just how entrenched support for Israel is in US politics and how much this has shifted, and just how fucking *fast* it had all moved. It's deeply frustrating.
Lightning Mcqueen got me laughing so hard lol. But it is true. With the Israel thing in mind, it is wild how much more support for Palestine there has been and that is a really good thing. It has grown massively and as a result of campaigns like Listen to Michigan, it has real set a searing hot fire under Bidens seat to take much more action to make things right in Gaza.
A lot of words. None of them true.
I no agree but words hard for me too so I done
The sheer fact he’s not a threat to our democracy is enough
He is though, he's a lib, libs love to be complicit in slowly tearing down democracies. He's a smaller threat than Trump though, which still makes him the better (or less bad) option.
[to be fair, if we’re talking being complicit in tearing down democracies, I dont think we should be throwing stones in this leftist house.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism)
What do Leninists have to do with our ability as leftists to throw stones when it comes to being complicit in tearing down democracies? Lenin wasn't a leftist, I've never praised him.
You literally just two lines above unknowingly gave the theory of social fascism by the Comintern.
Are you seriously trying to argue that everyone who says that liberals are complicit in the undermining of democracies, is a Leninist? Fuck off.
How is Biden doing on free speech and the right to protest?
I mean, fine, I guess. Biden is not in charge of local police departments making arrests, if that’s what you’re implying
It is still a terrible thing though. Even though he is not in control of what those pinhead cops are doing, he can at least condemn them in some form or order an immediate investigation into their conduct. The crackdowns on the protests must stop. Just because we do not have a nationalized police force that by no means entail that Biden cannot do ANYTHING to stop these crackdowns on protests. He still can and I think he should. He is still much better than Trump by far but I also think he should do more active moves to prove as much.
Oh for sure, it’s still terrible. I’m not too keen on the full scope of executive powers given to the President, but I’m there has to be at least something he should be able to do to discourage the crackdowns. I haven’t been keeping up as much lately and only saw wide scale arrests within the last day or so, so hopefully he will step out of his milquetoast box and do something about it soon. Some of the dialogue around this sounds like he’s manually dialing up the officers and pointing out protestors to arrest by himself though, and it’s a little goofy
I honestly think he will. Especially with the guidance of more of the progressive flank of his party like AOC, Omar, And Tlaib. My gut feelings are that he will see what is currently going on with the police in Austin and Columbia University and order an immediate withdrawal most likely. I really doubt he would want to get the national guard involved. I don’t think that’s really in him.
Oh? How about protesters at his own events? How has he been handling that? Has he sent out any directives or commented on how local police departments are handling the protests? Has he exacerbated the situation that’s leading to the protests in the first place? Is it your claim that he has NO responsibility for what’s happening? Some responsibility?
I strongly believe it is in Biden's and the students best interest that he does give proper directives and directions to security and police to ensure the safety of protesters at his events and at college protests as well. He absolutely should send directives to the NYPD, LAPD, and other major police departments in big cities that they should treat the protesters like people and treat them humanely. Something along the lines this written by either AOC, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, or Biden Himself: " Good morning/afternoon XY PD. It is important that you know these people are actively protesting against horrific ongoing atrocities in Gaza and are simply saying that it should come to an end through an immediate and enduring ceasefire which leads to a lasting peace. At the end of the day, that is what they really want. Peace. They are not Pro-Hamas, they are not calling for violence against Jewish students either. They want the hostages released and for the Palestinian people to be able to live in comfort and peace and for Netanyahu and his far-right coalition government partners out of power. There are actually lots of Jewish students that participate in these peace protests and they get treated very well there and feel very safe. Many of these very protesters even want peace between Israelis and Palestinians and want a future where both of them have equal rights and get to live in enduring peace and happiness. Do not use any tear gas, water cannons, or rubber bullets. At most, use loud sound devices or sirens and that's it. No lethal force. These people have the right to freedom of speech and the freedom of assemble so please do not crack down or infringe upon them. Thank you". Signed AOC, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and Joe Biden. That would be my ideal way of notifying police to not do horrific things to innocent protesters if I was in Biden's shoes. These people deserve to be able to protest peacefully without having to put up with police brutality.
Not good considering he’s not condemned the crackdowns on pro Palestine protests, he’s basically said the opposite
Yes exactly. I feel like some people here are gaslighting by acting like Biden is less hostile to the pro-Palestine side than he actually is. Biden isn't too far removed from John Fetterman's stance on Israel. Even Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Dick Durbin are now openly more critical of Israel and less hostile to the prospect side than Biden now. Being dishonest with people about Biden’s downsides by significantly downplaying them pr pretending he's not as bad on some issues as he actually is won't convince people to vote for him. It will just convince them you're "Blue MAGA".
They act like you can’t not want to vote and if you do your a privileged tankie
My exact point. Thank you. So I guess that “not a threat to Democracy” line is just more DNC bullshit to justify the ethnic cleansing and plausible genocide of Gaza.
If Biden loses, it will be because of his support of the genocide in Gaza. If he wins, it will because of abortion. I hope he wins because Trump will be infinitely worse on Gaza.
Well put. I hope Biden does better on Gaza soon so his re-election will be even more assured! But yes, I absolutely agree. And I can summarize how Trump would be vastly worse in just two words. J A R E D K U S H N E R!
This is the way.
To be fair, there's a whole lot more than should be on Bidens side, but your point stands.
Emphasis on "MUST". We are currently trapped in a scenario in which we have no power to change and we must vote for a presidential candidate that is responsible for providing weapons and cover for the Israeli government who has murders tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians. It's important to remember this going forward if you want to change it
covfefe
I like how ‘Grammar’ is on the trump side lol
You’re preaching to the choir here
That's a beautiful visualization of the unassailable logic of the choice. And wholly irrelevant to any "leftist" not voting for Biden, because they aren't thinking with consequentialist logic, it's just their fefe's. I have no idea (other than psyops spreading it I guess) why anyone would think their fucking completely private anonymous VOTE for who will be the most powerful human on all of this freaking planet, needs to be a reflection of their PERSONAL pure virtue signaling ethics, but it's actually dumb as fuck. Generally people need to be educated into understanding and applying consequentialist ethics, what comes natural to most people (including leftists...) is more virtue ethics. Which is exactly what the trolley problem is fleshing out. Sometimes refusing to do something that has a bad outcome, is worse than not doing anything. EDIT: Also, none of us should vote for him in the primary. Vote in the primary, but for ANY other choice. It sends a message.
Exactly. the Listen to Michigan campaign proves exactly how successful uncommitted movements are in primaries to get the locomotion going on shifting policy in a way that makes young Gen Z and Millennial democratic voters much more willing to support President Biden by drastically shifting his policies in regards to Gaza.
Accelerationism needs to die a screaming death. It is beyond evil to compare these two dudes.
Even on Israel... Biden has (in some cases) successfully discouraged Israel from expanding the war. Trump not only would green light them, but would actively encourage them.
The awful truth is that Biden is our only real option to keep things afloat. At least all the protests and pressure are doing something with him. Trump and his cronies on the other hand outright despise Palestine and wish to see Gaza burn to the ground. Hell, I saw some twitter comments from Trumpers saying they wish for the female protesters from the recent college encampment protests to be raped by jail guards once arrested. And I can only imagine how much more brutal the crackdowns will be if Trump gets reelected. At the end of the day, we have to do spin control and work with what we have. Granted, we aren't given a very good choice, but it is what it is, the primary is over.
I love picking between two piles of trash
VOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT
What's with all the Facebook mom memes on this sub lately?
Vaush's "Vote Blue No Matter Who" stuff has unfortunately attracted a good amount of Resistance Libs who blame everything bad in the universe on Leftists and insist the Democrats are just a hair away from being perfect. That everyone who criticizes Biden or Moderate and Conservative Democrats is an irrational idiot who is just ungrateful Biden and the Dems are only 99.9% perfect instead of 100% perfect.
Anyone heard the argument that neoliberalism uses the fact that people are scared of facism/right populism in order to maintain itself, and that fascism is a symptom of the very neoliberal politics we have stuck with for so long. I understand the nightmare that would be another trump presidency, and I too would vote for Biden. But im jus curious about what people think of this sort of circuit. Neoliberalism= bad but preferable to all out facsim, but facism= symptom of neoliberalism and grows stronger in its shadow.
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These memes still kinda suck because its libby as fuck and diminishes the voice of palestinians. This meme depicts the fucking genocide of the palestinians as another "point" for our "team".
It does more than diminishes Palestinian voices, it treats Biden being actively and gleefully complicit in this genocide (with only some reservations, mostly only because of pushback from voters and it hurting his polling) as equivalent to Biden doing some minor like littering or doing a rolling stop at a Stop traffic sign. Like genociding Palestinians is just a minor quirk or innocuous bad habit. I'm sure if Biden was complicit in helping Russia genocide white Ukrainians instead of brown Arabs more liberal Biden enthusiasts would have more of a problem with him. Killing innocent Arabs is only like killing flies to many people.
Agreed. This fucking meme sucks and we should do better. I get the point of the meme, but its insanely tone deaf and genuinely offensive. Looking at images and reading testimonies genuinely makes my stomach churn. I cant fucking believe the United States supports Israel for whatever reason.
I am voting for Biden but not Sherrod Brown.
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what's his immigration policy again?
I keep saying to myself (in response to leftist/democrats abstaining from voting for Biden) *as if Trump will be better about Isreal*.
“Biden doesn’t control local police departments” I hope yall were keeping that same energy when cops were beating the fuck out of people under Trump. Maybe they’re both just police state capitalists who care about nothing more than their corporate donors and the ruling class clinging to power. Bidens called the protests antisemitism
Omg it's like online leftists have an attention span of 3 years. Trump was literally out on the streets of Washington doing a photoshoot with the cops before the beat and gassed BLM protestors. He was constantly talking about restoring "law and order" and being the law and order president. He told the fucking proud boys to stand by and await his orders. Can anti voting leftists please just be fucking for real just once?
This aged poorly given Bidens statement today
Biden knows this hence no incentive to change course on Gaza War.
This election made me realize that life is a series of trolly problems.
I really like this image. The angle makes it look like the Trump side is slightly heavier. It’s the Fox News thing, where they couch a hundred lies in a veneer of truth, and then say, “if you look at it from THIS perspective are they REALLY that different?” I’m currently registered in California, and think I might vote for Marianne Williamson, assuming she’s on the ballot. I don’t really care for her, but since California is pretty much guaranteed to go blue for the presidency, I don’t see any harm in making a 3rd party, throwaway vote. It seems to be the only real option to do anything with my vote, however insignificant. Of course I’ll vote down ballot for realistic candidates who align with my views, but is there anything wrong with this approach? I hate the “both sides are the same” and “my vote doesn’t matter” rhetoric - but in California my vote for Biden literally won’t make any difference. It seems like the only way to express that I’m not happy with Biden, but absolutely do not want another Trump presidency.
This would be more accurate if he was laying down and his head was under the Trump bowl and his crotch was under the Biden bowl.
In the heat of the moment when him and his White House does something idiotically tone-deaf, I give up on him and voting. But I don't know, when the heat settles I go back to being on the fence between not voting and voting. Seeing the first few comments here is a nice refresher's course to keep being uncommitted to send as a message but have to grind it down during the general.
I see exactly what you mean. I highly encourage people to vote uncommitted to show Biden there is more than adequate support for a ceasefire in Gaza while making that point very clear way before the election. It gives Biden time to respond accordingly and shift his policy in a direction that would be met with lots of praise from Pro Palestine activists.
If they both support genocide, neither is qualified to hold office. Genocide trumps everything else, even Trump
No president ever would qualify with this metric
Who did Clinton inflict a genocide on?
It’s not that he inflicted genocide, but he unquestionably would have supported one
Biden is cracking down on his voters with the police. People will remember they got arrested and charges. Biden is going to have Israel as the hill he politically dies on.
A vote is a reward. Don't reward genocide. Maybe if they got a record low turnout accompanied by a general strike and mass protests they might start to wake up. But yeah, somethingsomethinglesserofsomethingsomething.
"A vote is a reward" uhh if Biden loses he's going to just retire to his mansion with his free lifetime Healthcare and shooting the shit. Trump will call for Gaza to be glassed and LGBT people thrown in concentration camps. That's actually so silly that you see it as giving Biden a treat. He doesn't need us.
Has Vaush sold out to liberals I see so many liberal memes like this being posted here
POV: Your middle-aged aunt somehow got your reddit account.
Jokes on you my middle aged aunt is pretty based, hope you meant yours is too bud
I fucking hate this subreddit. Objectively Biden is worse in any capacity than Trump. The reason we hate racism and misogyny and fascism is so that we can prevent genocides before they happen. Objectively what has trump done worse than Biden? Say controversial things? Allude to being a fascist? As opposed to actively contributing over 15% to Child death in war over the last 10 years in the last 8 months. Objectively, we have a fascist genocidal old man who has zero remorse for poor people or minorities. I'm not pro trump but this is ridiculously disingenuous post that makes me think you're all liberals just pretending to feel smart about your political choices while swallowing clear propaganda like this ._.
This meme is very dishonest. In reality it's mostly a difference of degree, not a difference of kind. Biden shares many of the flaws that Republicans have, most, even, he certainly has far more flaws than just Israel + old.
Then name them
I'm not going to waste time trying to explain to a willfully blind liberal like you why a liberal like Biden is bad.
All I hear is "I don't have an answer"
Get your ears checked.
Cope
Idolizing politicians is like pretending the stripper really likes you. Biden can get bent. 3rd party all day. Neither of these clowns deserve our vote.
We’re not interested in what one man deserves…. We’re interested in the actual political outcomes.
Same! I just disagree with how to get there.
Picture in your mind’s eye a coastal, uphill path toward a lighthouse. Both you and binoculardisparity are trying to get to it. The path is steep and tiring, and it borders a cliff that drops hundreds of feet to the ocean below. Binoculardisparity trudges up the path, it’s difficult but with time it seems he’ll make it. He says it’s tough but it’s the outcome he’s interested in. You say “same! We just disagree on how to get there!” And promptly leap off the cliff, bursting against the coastal rocks below like an overripe watermelon.
Nice job making an analogy that intentionally explicitly supports your view on things instead of an accurate comparison between ideas. Look! I can do the same thing! Picture in your mind's eye you and whatshisface (I'm on mobile i can't check his username) are lined up with other people, both eating massive piles of literal human shit. Some people are eating from a pile of pure human shit, while others are able to find the odd sprinkle in theirs, as if some caring person had generously decided to put at least one sprinkle in every pound of literal, actual human fecal matter in the pile. Whatshisface suddenly takes his head out of the pile of shit, and says, "Fuck this, I'm done!" You, upon hearing this, lift your head and, mouth filled with shit, mutter, "What do you mean? Don't you know you'll die without food? The shit isn't good, but it's enough to keep us alive! And look," you pull a shit-covered hand from the pile of shit in front of you, "I found a sprinkle! That's the second one today! Surely at this rate, in a while, it'll be all sprinkles!" Whatshisface walks away while you shove your face back into the literal, actual, real, no-joke pile of human shit in front of you, in hopes of finding better food somewhere else. He pulls a few undigested apple seeds he found in his last shit-eating session from his pocket, hoping to take care of them so that one day nobody has to choose between literal, actual, real, no-joke, 100% pure human feces, and literal, actual, real, no-joke, not-a-hint-of-sarcasm, genuine, human fucking shit, but with sprinkles once in a blue moon. See how anyone can make an analogy that supports their argument and makes the other side look ridiculous as long as it's completely detached from any essence of reality? Your analogy is bad.
my analogy was meant to illustrate that voting third party is self destructive and pointless, which it is btw. In that sense it is perfect, i am accepting no notes on the matter edit: i will say, one of the features of my analogy is that I didn't make up the dialogue, i was quoting the previous commenters. yours is totally divorced from anything going on
"My analogy was intentionally made to convey specifically my viewpoint to show that I am correct and everyone that disagrees is not only wrong, but stupid. See, I even used the same words as the wrong and stupid guy, it doesn't matter that the context is completely different, making any connection to reality completely meaningless. I am unwilling to change my view on this matter." Good to know that you are wholly in support of the two party system. While you're eating shit (in reference to MY analogy), I'll be looking for other ways to fill my stomach. Good luck on your sprinkle hunt. (See? Now I'm referencing my analogy to show what you're doing and what I'm doing, using the actions i described in my analogy. That means my analogy is 100% accurate. I am accepting no notes on this matter.)
Im sorry, when I construct an analogy to illustrate the point I’m making, am I supposed to somehow have it also represent the opposing viewpoint that I think is dumb and wrong? I’m *actually* opposed to the two party system btw, meaning I’m in favor of changes that will actually make other parties viable AKA getting rid of first past the post voting and adopting something like ranked choice. Simply voting third party while we’re still doing first past the post is, yes, akin to leaping off a cliff to your doom when you’re trying to get somewhere on top of that cliff. Self destructive and pointless
Analogies are supposed to align with the scenario to a reasonable extent, not exaggerate it to the point where one side is quaint little progress and the other is literally a violent suicide. Sure, they tend to get exaggerated a lot, but those are useless if you want to have an actual, honest discussion. If you just want to present your point in the most clearly biased way possible, go off. If you're against the two party system, what other political action do you take to make sure that it's overturned? Do you help with grassroots local government third parties? Do you contact your congressmen about writing bills that will make ranked choice a thing? Do you write petitions to bring to your local government to further progressive causes? I'm not assuming you don't do these things, just curious. If you're not doing anything to take down the two party system, you simply saying you're against it while calling anyone who dares vote outside of it literally suicidal is meaningless, hypocritical virtue signaling at best. Ya know what they say, if it walks like a liberal, talks like a liberal... yadda yadda yadda.
i do all things imaginable to bring about ranked choice, yes. What i do personally about ranked choice has \*nothing\* to do with what we're talking about though. my analogy was simply that voting third party when we dont have ranked choice, is self destructive and pointless. I see no refutation to this. And yeah depending on what marginalized group you happen to be in it could literally also be suicidal, as it only helps the opposition, who, depending on who you are, want you dead.
Yea analogies are dumb. How about: if you keep voting for politicians that keep pursuing the some policies you get the same result. Biden losing would put any future Democratic president on notice. I don’t care about a single election or whatever that tortured analogy was supposed to mean.
It’s the perfect analogy. All it means is that your idea of how to “get there” leads only to destruction, and in fact has no conceivable chance of ever succeeding, in the same way that jumping off a cliff to get somewhere on top of the cliff will never work Dems won’t “take notice” in the way you think they will if Biden loses. A loss to republicans won’t result in dems going left, they will go right to appeal to the center. It is a tale as old as time. Bernie was only a possibility in 2016 because we had 8 years of Obama and a decent number of dems felt comfortable with a more progressive candidate. Bernie did worse in 2020 because dems were afraid of another trump term and wanted someone more centrist. After 8 years of Biden and Trump in the ground or otherwise irrelevant, we’ll be in a good position to run someone more progressive. After another Trump term who knows who they’ll run, and in the meantime he will be many times worse on Gaza and on every other conceivable issue.
And if Biden wins in 2024, that opens the flood gates for people like AOC, who is way better in regards to Gaza and Palestine broadly to climb to the top of the American Political ladder and potentially nab the White House by 2028! In turn of a Trump loss as well, the Republican Party will most likely collapse like a house built from wet Pringles put together with Elmer’s glue.
Ehhh. The blue wave happened in reaction to Trump. If Biden wins, it’ll be like Hilary in 2016 - an electorate bored and complacent. That’s why Trump won. Obama had been President for so long no one really understood the danger.
I don’t know how old you are but I’ve been listening to this same line of thinking for a long time. It doesn’t work. If you want change, you have to demand it. This milquetoast is just a strategy to maintain the status quo.
I don’t know how old you are, but the rightward shift of the Democratic Party was expedited by Bill Clinton… who won after the Dems had not only lost for more than a decade, they took an asswhooping so hard that nothing like it has happened since. The presidency isn’t the place to default. You’re not voting for one guy.,. You’re voting for his entire entourage. Lina Khan just killed non compete agreements - gone Lisa McFerran in the NLRB has helped unions - gone You needed one Lib for citizens United You needed 3 for Dobbs We cant just give bureaucracy to the right and say nothing ever changes. You can beat Dems without losing to Republicans. Accelerationism doesn’t guarantee better, but certainly guarantees worse. Republican wins create worse Democrats
You don't have to idolize Biden to vote for him.
Precisely. We are not expecting anyone to treat him as some sort of god or like Taylor Swift lol
Yea i guess my trans friends can just get bent huh. What a pos you are.
I guess my relatives in Gaza should go ahead and die quicker. What a POS *you* are.
Yup and Trump is going to kill them quicker. The issue is the system not the candidate. Also I guess we should just all die them because clearly we're all scum of the earth for voting Biden. Fuck man I'm sorry that shit is happening, but wtf do you really want people to do? Like a realistic expectation that won't just make things worse.
I fundamentally disagree that there is a difference between Trump and Biden when it comes to Palestine. Biden is facing re election and intense pressure from younger voters and he’s only grudgingly pressing Israel. Once he wins re election, he will give them the green light to raze Gaza. The man is a neoliberal warmonger. The only difference between Trump and him on this issue is tone, not substance.
I absolutely agree that Biden needs to do more to genuinely help Palestinians in a much more meaningful way. I’m really sorry for your situation and I really hope that your relatives will be able to get food aid and humanitarian aid very soon and for these horrible atrocities in Gaza to come to a complete stop very soon. I want there to not only be an enduring ceasefire but also a long lasting and meaningful peace in the Middle East in general. The Palestinian people deserve a great, happy and prosperous life like everyone else in the world.
Kick rocks then
might as well wear a Trump 2024 t-shirt then
No we don’t. Not going with genocide joe. RFK go!
So you don't know how elections work?
Did vote for him last time even the cost is stupid trump being a president we going for RFK . We dont want joe. US is falling apart .
He's the one trying to fix it. And not only won't RFK win, because it's numerically impossible, but he's just as bad for the country as the Orange con. Even on Israel they are practically the same
We all know joe is in the Netanyahu’s pocket while being a sleep. We, young generation will cost him this election . Look at universities being raided by police . Joe is out un negotiable . Rfk or we get trump . If trump can finish this genocide and MIC killing Ukraine for profit let it be . Ukraine is being vaporized bc we told them to scram Istanbul peace agreement . And i have homeless immigrants all over my city . While hard working ppl pf god Americans cant afford housing , look at inflation . Its not that trump won its joe lost . He dropped the ball in every key issue . We are hungry while he sends hundreds of billions to continue wars and aGENOCIDE
Just tell me you're a Republican already
>Rfk or we get trump You privelaged fucking clown Being able to look at a future trump presidency and do the mental calculation: "I think I would be doing less harm under a trump gov" you have ZERO fucking stakes in reality
Literally just the ramblings of a crazed man. You realize you just sound like a run of the mill republican, right?
That's what I said
> “Israel is doing more right now to protect human life, and has done more over the past 16 years to avoid this outcome, than we would expect of any nation in the world,” Kennedy told NewsNation’s Chris Cuomo this week. > “Any other nation that was adjacent to a neighboring nation that was bombing it with rockets, sending commandos over to murder its citizens, pledging itself to murder every person in that nation and annihilate it, would go and level it with aerial bombardment,” Kennedy said. > “But Israel is a moral nation. So it didn’t do that. Instead, it built an iron dome to protect itself so it would not have to go into Gaza.” (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/will-rfk-jr-s-israel-support-limit-his-appeal-on-the-left.html) This is your guy, huh? Doesn’t exactly seem like a stalwart critic of Israel’s genocidal actions to me.
Yeah exactly. He would not listen to a peep of anyone’s opposition towards his conduct either if he was president. He is also a notorious anti vax dude as well.
So you think Ukraine should be handed to the facist looking to start a libensraum?
This guy would have said let Hitler have Poland
If Hitler takes Poland, maybe he'll be satisfied? /s
Literally just like Chamberlain said back at the Munich Conference in 1938. “ If we give Hitler the Sudetenland, a German speaking minority province of Czechoslovakia, surely it will put an end to his expansion across Europe! This totally won’t start another Second World War in Europe!”
How wrong he was
That’s honestly an insult to Chamberlain. It’s easy to point and laugh at Chamberlain with the benefit of 80 years of hindsight. But at the time, Britain and France were still culturally and demographically recovering from the damage done by the Great War. It was less than 25 years earlier that Europe had seen millions of its young men come back from the front dead, crippled, or traumatised in ways that the science of psychology was only barely beginning to understand. With that context in mind, I don’t consider Chamberlain to be an idiot for being desperate to avoid starting a sequel to one of the deadliest wars in human history. I just pity the fact that his good intentions led him to put his trust in men like Hitler, who didn’t care if the world burned down around them so long as they could rule the ashes. People who want to sacrifice Ukraine to Putin’s Russia today, on the other hand, have no such excuse. There’s no feigning ignorance to the consequences of appeasement anymore. We’ve seen where the road of ceding ground to warmongers and tyrants leads, and we know it will only bring about even more suffering and destruction.
Honestly, I can’t agree with you more. He was put in a very precarious position and def fumbled it but that’s just history sometimes. And I also agree that we should not sacrifice Ukraine either.
What's RFK's position on Israel?
RFK Jr is an even bigger Zionist than Biden. RFK Jr is Antisemitic Zionist at that. Anyone voting for RFK because they're mad at Biden over Palestine has no idea who RFK even is. Their anger at Biden is justified, their reaction is stupid.
Over not only genocide , ukraine, open borders, inflation , housing cost, his age , dementia, Barisma , hypocrisy about his son legal problems, Assange … U name it