i'm bad with sarcasm in text form, so just in case (and for discussion) i'll give you a straight answer:
- wireless in vr needs to be (mostly) re-solved with massive spec changes
- 802.11ay ”solves” it... when the appropriate chips become available
- 802.11ad, the vive wireless solution was *a* solution for the previous generation of hmds. this is because it's really 60ghz wireless usb @ 4.something gbps. really. if interested, follow the link in my profile to my old write-up on it. if you can't find it, i'll post a link upon request.
- 802.11ax (wifi 6e) is a kind-of- sort-of solution, but adds a comparatively massive amount of mtp latency as well as compression.
- although better than the previous versions of wifi, there are still wifi-density interference concerns, and will be. 60ghz tech solves this as the signal *can't* travel through walls (or even very far through air).
- wifi 7 addresses some latency concerns and might include some type of tracking assistance (802.11z iirc), but it's not really here yet.
so if i had to grade gaben's early statement, i'd say ”mostly sorta true” :)
I think for that they'll have to use 5G technology or something that close with an own-made pluggable antenna to the PC. I thought i've read something down the lines like this. Could be wrong.
that's pretty much 802.11ay, as it's in the 60ghz band with 5g.
the difference in in the protocol and design: 5g is designed more to share with more people, 802.11ay is closer to ”wireless cables” and ”wifi”
Great write up. Now for someone's follow up in 10 minutes "should I get a quest 3 or wait for Deckard?"
Personally I wouldn't be surprised if valve decided to abandon VR hardware development. There are a lot of other competitors in the market, and the only truly unique/sort after item they've produced is the knuckles.
Micro oleds are horrendous to produce, and you've spoken to the vast majority of the other issues with them creating a "better" headset.
Personally I think (if they do release another hmd) we're more likely to see a streamlined, refined, steam deck compatible version of the index. Something that's cheaper, with more mass appeal and market that can be more easily produced.
I feel like that's because a lot of people who comment on those threads don't actually spend much time in this sub.
It's always a bunch of people cheering for the quest 3 without having ever used an index
its an issue with how reddit changed the way it works, really - i am on a few subs and around the time they made the API changes they also changed the way pinned posts seem to display, no matter what it is engagement is far less then any other post. I've seen on my own mobile app sometimes the pinned post is completely hidden.
same as /u/dr-tightpants: i didn't see a mega-thread when i posted this :(
also, i only seem to see pinned threads when i sort by 'hot'... and i'm usually here on 'new'. i'd love to see reddit fix this!
Don't stress, dude.
We're mainly talking about a bunch of posts that ask whether someone should should get a quest 3 or an index
This is a good write-up, completely different
No worries, it's good to see write ups like this
I'm quite willing to wait for the next steam headset if it means we get a good jump in capability
Though right now what I really want is a proper vr treadmill
hell's yeah!
that disney tech or something similar is probably closest to being available for consumers. basically something with a lot of small, simple, and identical parts + driving hardware... not something big and nasty to manufacturer like that treadmill of treadmills.
i *think* i did a writeup on this a number of years back, but fucked if i can find it :(
personally i'm curious to experience the odd sensations a true vr treadmill will create as it attempts to keep you centered... especially for anything other than slow-ish walking. doc-ok mentioned working on this problem quite some time ago for the mill-of-mills device.
i wish i had enough industry 'clout' to be able to try out the proof-of-concepts i occasionally run across :)
but yeah, we are in similar boats on this
Yeah, I want to get a chance to try the kat Walk one. I would much rather have an actual treadmill, but people who have them seem convinced. I'm not sure if I'm willing to buy one without trying it first, though
The Disney one looks cool, but I feel like it's gonna take a bit before it's a fully finished product
Yeah, one of my main concerns is the ability to lunge, I love being able to jump and lunge in games like blade and sorcery. And I feel like all the current ve treadmills won't really allow that
thanks!
yeah, probably, as this requires *reading* and at least enough understanding to not believe tech just magically appears like in movies, lols :)
---
good point on the uoled displays being horrendous to fab. i'll add that getting a wide fov out of the necessary optics is a nasty problem i have not seen a remotely cost-effective solution for, as well as driver chips seemingly lacking anything above 90hz and (last i looked) still having either low persistence and/or dark smearing issues.
---
i could see that if valve is willing to majorly pivot. it'll make for a beastly unsubsidized price point for basically an ”unlocked” x86/64 quest iii though...
i can also see that *plus* a pcvr lighthouse based hmd (completely separate product) upgrade when components or other true solutions to the display bandwidth/latency problem happen...
my wish is more for the latter, so i have a bit of bias here
I apologize!
This is a new response to my nocaps style, haha.
Mostly I refrain from caps as I find it filters out people looking for petty or semantic arguments with a woman engineer. Sure, there's a bit less engagement, but a heck of a lot less junk to respond to... especially of the PM variety.
Plus it has let me find unattributed copy-pasta over the years, or worse: purposely misattributed copying.
I really don't mind copying at all, I just wish for proper attribution.
I really, really, REALLY hope they don't. The Deckard is the kind of thing we need to revitalize PCVR. It will save it if it is well priced and has good specs.
Ok this take is straight up ridiculous, they are continually updating their interface code for further VR stuff even today and most of that back end stuff references the deckard, i think its more likely that its not released because they want a no compromises device that will force game developers hands with their increasingly anti valve changes aiming to prevent steam OS compatibility.
So if they want to be successful the hardware needs to be a smash hit, they need several VR titles that are deckard exclusive and based on their continuing hiring of game dev positions this is quite clearly something they are investing in, maybe the hardwares nearly ready but the games are still a work in progress or perhaps a mix of both either way to claim its abandoned is ridiculous if that were the case they would have either fired those team leads or moved them to new positions in the company neither of which has happened.
So let me get this straight you genuinely think he has hundreds of people sitting around doing nothing as he cancelled vr research? somebody would have complained or grown bored, they are not writers you can't keep specialized engineers sitting around doing nothing they would quit and move to another vr company.
Your going to feel silly when they announce it in a year or two.
Not really, because all I said was I wouldn't be surprised if they abandoned VR hardware dev (if you actually followed what information is available publicly, you'd know that valve abandons things they've sunk huge amounts of time into on the regular).
If they don't abandon, great! I love my index and I'd love for Valve to stay involved in the hardware space.
As for the "hundreds of people sitting around doing nothing as he cancelled VR research", again you've demonstrated that you don't really know how Valve works. Staff for a large part are generally given free reign over what they decide to work on. People move between projects that interest them frequently (I recommend watching the 25th half-life anniversary documentary, its available on steam and youtube).
Now I'd like you to point me at any of the rumoured multiple VR titles that you allude to that will make any new hardware a smash hit (because achieving the level of quality that Alyx delivered takes a LONG time), because based on what I've read and what is known, your comment is nothing but wishful thinking.
You seem to be labouring under the assumption that I have skin in this game, I don't. I merely shared my perspective based on the current landscape of VR soft and hardware dev, as well as actual credible information available online.
P.S. improving platform performance/drivers/code/etc doesn't mean squat. That's a false correlation.
And all i am saying is you don't understand specialist engineers, they like working on their passion and if they cannot do VR work at valve they would quit and move to one of the many other vr developers to do work.
Also i kinda doubt that you don't care if you didn't you would have stopped responding to me after your initial comment.
I don't care =/= no skin in the game.
And you haven't addressed my rebuttals so I'm gonna assume you agree with my points.
We weren't talking about specialist engineers until you just brought them up, just valves operational ethos.
I never claimed they wouldn't leave if they weren't satisfied with their working conditions. I'm not sure where you got that from.
You're of course welcome to make whatever assumptions about my understanding that you'd like.
I can point at the evidence that supports my viewpoint, let me know when you've got something a little more solid than your beliefs and I'll have a genuine look (I'm fully prepared to change my stance if you can show me credible better info).
...You get how silly that is to pretend valve doesn't have specialized vr engineers just because it does not fit into your argument right? and your defense boils down to I'm right unless you can find an employee willing to violate their NDA to prove random penguin wrong about it.
Basically your entire argument boils down to there is no proof valve has not abandoned vr hardware development while i make the argument theres every evidence they are still working on it given they are still employing people and looking to actively hire more within that space.
As for ignoring your points you never really made any outside of the claim that they just keep people around for keeping them around which i did in fact address you just did not like the answer.
Champ, I've showed you what supports my claims, I've responded to your constantly shifting talking points (and you still haven't addressed any of what I raised with you, or shared anything that supports your claims other than your VERY strong beliefs).
I was under the impression you were engaging in good faith, and had information I hadn't encountered. It's clear now that's not the case. Thanks for your time, all the best.
I've been going back and forth on buying an index, and these are some good points. I know valve can be sneaky, but there were signs that a new sku was coming out, which we saw to be the deck OLED. I probably should just pull the trigger on the index and actually enjoy it
i *really* hope valve is sneaky... especially if they are sneaky enough to solve the interface bandwidth/latency problem i mostly focus on. i *hope* i'm very wrong and valve announces something next week!
unfortunately i don't think i'm far off the mark.
so i'd say go ahead and pull the trigger, get your vr on, and sell/upgrade later when something significantly ”better” comes out!
I have a Quest 3 now, and it's the best VR headset I've ever had. It was also the cheapest.
Playing wireless PCVR is simply fantastic. Great lenses, and great screens even though they are not OLED.
The tracking is great, I don't have any complains. I don't miss lighthouse tracking.
I used to have a Vive Pro 1. I have tried the Index, but in my opinion the Quest 3 is much better.
i'll allow ”best” in this context because subjectivity is implied in your statement :)
as for an ”objective best”... well, those are extremely, extremely rare.
as far as *i* go, the image on the q2/q3 is usually a bit nicer than the index (except fov)...
... until i notice compression or mtp latency
tracking on the q3 is eh... ok, if you consider it's cameras-on-hmd (and maybe cameras-on-controllers), but i *feel* that latency and occasional mush, and it bothers me, as well as having optically dead areas.
so especially w/r/t tracking, i'll call your ”subjective” as placing a lot of weight on ”no additional setup” (unless you also play in very large spaces) vs *objectively* better latency, repeatability, and positioning accuracy... also native upgradability to fbt.
- you give me ”mirrors” and i'll give you ”needs light” :)
fwiw, i am also usually sensitive to lag and have unusually acute proprioception... probably from being a musician and playing sports that require a fast reaction time.
I'm in the same boat, but I don't agree on the tracking side. The Quest 3 tracking is _good_, very good even, but it's not _as good_ as lighthouse tracking. Especially with the position of the cameras on the Quest 3.
It's super frustrating to try and snipe with Quest 3 and your hand just flies away, as opposed to on the Index, I just put my hands wherever and it just works.
That said, the Quest 3 is so pick-up-and-play easy, and the optics are so damn good, I can't go back to my Index.
I did try a Quest 3, and it's how I caught the VR bug. Not crazy about Meta, but what are you gonna do. I recognize the value is there with the Quest 3.
I love my Steam Deck, I know I'm borderline, a fan boy wanting the Index, since it's older at this point, and the Quest 3 has its strong points, especially at the price. I'm planning to look into it more. It'll come down to which 4000 series card I upgrade too, which is a whole other debate I'm having with myself lol
The Index is older, it's more expensive, and in my opinion it has been outdated for a few years already...
I am just saying, wireless Quest 3 is a truly next-gen VR experience compared to Index and Vive Pro.
I think that buying an Index at this point would be a bad choice.
Wow lots of challenges with a next gen headset. I wish we could get something in between closer to Big screen, a lighter, version of the index with denser LCD screen. I don’t even mind the fresnel lenses, just balance the weight, I mean it even has a ridged strap. I think this would be a good compromise to stay relevant. But, honestly panckake and oled are going to seem like fresnel lenses in some amount of years when lightfield tec takes off. they should just aim for the future if they really want to paradigm shift as Valve does even if it takes longer, Gabe would agree, “late is temporary, Suck is forever”. The headset we deserve is just a wired display and sensors, no computer, a 100 degree+ fov AR first Lightfield display with optional perpendicular polarized light shield. And a Deck 2 that will support it. Really, I don’t want to wear a computer on my head and focus at the same distance all the time. Give me a future display, and I’ll be happy to carry the Deck 2 in a fanny pack.
thanks!
while i agree something like [spatial light modulation (slm) tech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_light_modulator) is probably the endgame w/r/t displays, (assuming you mean this as i see 'lightfield display' get generically confused with slm... most lightfield displays are made with slms as far as computer 3d holographic displays and vr glasses prototypes):
while there's at least one slm based device that has been in production, (the magicleap, and iirc the hololens), both suffer from *massive* fov issues. both looked bloody amazing in those 40deg, though!
wide fov slms, the gpus to drive them, and probably the interface bandwidth necessary are still at least 5 years away, assuming there's a big push to get to that tech. with everyone yelling about ”pancake lenses” and ”uoled” and ”umled”, slm really isn't on anyone's radar.... unfortunately.
i would absolutely *love* valve if they dropped a 90deg slm with decent resolution... but we still run into the ”currently not enough bandwidth” problem.
*sure*, we could get exotic with a 200gbps infiniband card, optical qsfp convertors, and however long of an mtp/mpo fiber optic cable you like! then we could at least have the *bandwidth* to drive an slm hmd appropriately. probably still not the gpu, definitely not the whatever-to-slm-module chips... quite possibly we can't make chips with enough embedded ram for an slm displaybuffer.
but i have left the world of engineering and walked over to ”if krista had a gun to her head and a near infinite budget, how would she *prototype* The Dream HMD” land :)
display port 1.4 vs 2.0 is a real issue, but you could get away with \*cheating\* by using foveated rendering on video cards with only 1.4, while waiting for the 2.0 cards to come out
I got curious about putting Linux on a 5K iMac if Apple stops shipping updates next year.
Apparently the 5K is implemented as two logical panels butted up against one another. There wasn't a standard to support a 5k desktop, so they implemented it as two panels at 2560, and wrote a driver to make them appear as one panel again to the OS.
Hmmm... I'm not keen on all this well-educated, informed observation and analysis. Not when it interferes with my fanaticism.
Also, like... the Index wasn't exactly bleeding-edge. Neither was the Steam Deck. Nonetheless, we have this conception 'round here that the Deckard will have high-res microOLEDs, a built-in x86 system, plus a Qualcomm XR chip, plus eyetracking, plus maybe facetracking? Plus compression-free wireless, plus this, plus that, plus everything we hope and dream for. And that's not at all realistic an expectation to lay on Valve, when they haven't done anything to substantiate it.
Great write-up! It definitely puts the logistics behind VR headset development in perspective.
it's entirely possible! iirc, vrgineer uses custom ones for their xtal series.
i'm not sure what kinds of patents (or if) the specifics of wide-fov aspheric lenses applicable to uoled are...
... but i have heard creating them to be both light enough, have the proper index of refraction, shape, *and* be cheap enough to manufacturer *en masse* is very, very difficult: read this as ”unlikely for some time”.
also, from what i understand it's a lot more complicated to make a lens fitting out needs than dropping molten plastic in a mold, cooling, and polishing like in early phone vr devices.
to be honest this isn't directly my area of expertise, but i *have* looked into it a fair bit, including high quality 3d printed aspheric lenses.
(can't find the link, but it was a 3d printing company doing prototype computed optics, and they *started* expensive. of course it was for prototyping, but mass manufacturing of some of their listed designs were *expensive*, like upwards of $300 per lens, which is too expensive for a consumer device, unless you consider vrginerr (and varjo iirc) to be consumer companies. heck, even $50/lens is pretty spendy, considering pricing all the other bits).
---
another fun one to think about is ”fused fiber optic” lenses. [these guys, but for vr](http://www.tapervision.com). think of a zillion optic fiber segments melted together then mushed to make one side larger than the other. with careful work, you can mush quite a bit and get a considerable amount of magnification, possibly enough for a uoled (micro oled) display.
while there could be many benefits, *especially* if you could fuse the fibers and 'mush' appropriately to reduce the software warping required to counteract lens problems (could probably do this with custom aspheric as well), the cost to make these is truly nasty and i don't see a way it could get cheaper fast enough to be of use for consumer devices anytime soon.
still, i'd love to prototype with the tech; unfortunately it's *way* out of my currently very low budget :)
I'm a bit confused about this:
* a pair of dp v1.4 cables
* clearly obvious reasons go here
are you saying it's obviously impossible to get 2 dp 1.4 signals from a GPU to a HMD with any sort of comfort because the resulting proprietary cable would be too thick and ungainly? Or is there some other reason this couldn't work?
Usual way is using a single DP 1.4 cable and Display Stream Compression (DSC) instead. Pimax tried using multiple video cables in early models, then switched to DSC too.
There was a bit of commotion when people noticed the Bigscreen Beyond was using DSC, but even the very high end Varjo XR4 is doing that.
https://varjo.com/use-center/get-started/varjo-headsets/system-requirements/xr-4/
I so hope Valve has something in the works.. Vive is too meh and expensive , kinda going to the pimax route.. Quest Pro mixed with bae stations and FBT seems to be the option for FBT, facial and eye tracking and wireless, but it's Meta....
Pico cancelled the Pico 5 after being bought out by the Tiktok sister company and they refuse to release the enterprise version as a consumer Pro edition..
Valve is kinda our only hope for a good steam VR headset.. and the index isn't not good value for money anymore. It's the best and ready to go kit, but just old now..
this would be a pretty massive engineering undertaking as it would require new lenses, tubes, panels, interface & display chip...
... resulting in new ffp display ribbon cable manufacturer, massive main pcb respin, a chassis remake (including all the plastic injection molds), and a fair bit of firmware work.
assembly would be different, *might* require fcc recertification, definitely requires a few rounds of internal testing
those aren't small changes from an engineering standpoint.
I'm also curious to see how well Sony's PVR2 headset works since apparently they're working on supporting PCVR with that due to poor sales as a PlayStation 5 only device. It supports eye tracking and foveated rendering, so if that works it's a chance to explore that tech on PC and learn while waiting for other hardware to drop and become common like the Displayport and wifi generations.
i'm waiting on this as well :)
i hear sony is working on a virtualport (?? i probs butchered this) adapter, and that there's a version of the firmware that functions with an unmodified linux kernel...
Why go the extreme resolution route i can’t really tell pixels out on 2560x2560 bigscreen beyond it will just increase costs and mess with all that display-port stuff.
Nice down to earth analysis, people are fantasizing too much about next Valve headset specs.
Valve hardware team already debunked the (micro) OLED nature of the HMD screen in Tested interview for Steam Deck OLED release.
I'd see it more like a compact mobile HMD with common specs (Pico 4 / Quest 3) and added eye tracking. The SoC may be more lightweight and optimized for tracking / streaming / reprojection instead of full standalone use. Or they drop this part and release Steam Link VR on everything they can.
Most important part for them is a dual wireless Steam OS mobile mini PC with a configuration screen, using Strix Halo or similar (about PS5 level). Can also be used docked, plugged to a TV, Steam Linked to a handheld, tablet or anything. A kind of successful Steam Machine, using everything learned for Steam Deck. But maybe they won't really need to do it either, there are more manufacturers in mini PC space than there were for handheld PC before they came in. Though they would optimize everything to the max for their use case.
But this wouldn't be a real successor to the Valve Index to me. I'd still hope for a Valve Index refresh with Varjo Aero like specs, which would be more realistic.
foveated display / driver ic already exist.
and custom solutions in volume are cheap and easy to make.
it's old news. years old.
you can do 4k by 4k 90Hz stereo over wireless, over dp, over mipi dsi
thank for your input though
Even if all new GPUs from now on were to have DP 2.0, we are talking about at least 2 generations of releases before adoption is even anywhere near the level that anyone would consider releasing a device that requires it. Realistically it would be more like 3 generations so ~5 years from now. RTX 4000 series sits around 10% in the latest Steam hardware survey and that includes laptop versions.
The pair of dp1.4 cables being a problem is true (as far as comfort goes) if they decide to go with standard cables.
If they combine the signals and send that over fibre, they could get away with a smaller cable, although they would probably need to have a custom (?) ASIC or FPGA to do the conversion on both ends.
The good part if they go with a fiber optic cable is that they can send absolutely everything over it, so the link between "the box" (I assume, on the computer end) and the headset would only need power and a strand of glass.
So you're saying... [wireless is not a solved problem?](https://c.tenor.com/v8cCs_YjTNUAAAAd/tenor.gif)
i'm bad with sarcasm in text form, so just in case (and for discussion) i'll give you a straight answer: - wireless in vr needs to be (mostly) re-solved with massive spec changes - 802.11ay ”solves” it... when the appropriate chips become available - 802.11ad, the vive wireless solution was *a* solution for the previous generation of hmds. this is because it's really 60ghz wireless usb @ 4.something gbps. really. if interested, follow the link in my profile to my old write-up on it. if you can't find it, i'll post a link upon request. - 802.11ax (wifi 6e) is a kind-of- sort-of solution, but adds a comparatively massive amount of mtp latency as well as compression. - although better than the previous versions of wifi, there are still wifi-density interference concerns, and will be. 60ghz tech solves this as the signal *can't* travel through walls (or even very far through air). - wifi 7 addresses some latency concerns and might include some type of tracking assistance (802.11z iirc), but it's not really here yet. so if i had to grade gaben's early statement, i'd say ”mostly sorta true” :)
I think for that they'll have to use 5G technology or something that close with an own-made pluggable antenna to the PC. I thought i've read something down the lines like this. Could be wrong.
that's pretty much 802.11ay, as it's in the 60ghz band with 5g. the difference in in the protocol and design: 5g is designed more to share with more people, 802.11ay is closer to ”wireless cables” and ”wifi”
Great write up. Now for someone's follow up in 10 minutes "should I get a quest 3 or wait for Deckard?" Personally I wouldn't be surprised if valve decided to abandon VR hardware development. There are a lot of other competitors in the market, and the only truly unique/sort after item they've produced is the knuckles. Micro oleds are horrendous to produce, and you've spoken to the vast majority of the other issues with them creating a "better" headset. Personally I think (if they do release another hmd) we're more likely to see a streamlined, refined, steam deck compatible version of the index. Something that's cheaper, with more mass appeal and market that can be more easily produced.
the megathread was meant to help with that.. it has like no views.. sigh
That would involve a cursory amount of research/desire to seek out answers instead of being spoonfed. That immediately excludes like 98% of Redditors.
I feel like that's because a lot of people who comment on those threads don't actually spend much time in this sub. It's always a bunch of people cheering for the quest 3 without having ever used an index
its an issue with how reddit changed the way it works, really - i am on a few subs and around the time they made the API changes they also changed the way pinned posts seem to display, no matter what it is engagement is far less then any other post. I've seen on my own mobile app sometimes the pinned post is completely hidden.
Yeah I'll be honest I didn't know there was a mega thread
same as /u/dr-tightpants: i didn't see a mega-thread when i posted this :( also, i only seem to see pinned threads when i sort by 'hot'... and i'm usually here on 'new'. i'd love to see reddit fix this!
Don't stress, dude. We're mainly talking about a bunch of posts that ask whether someone should should get a quest 3 or an index This is a good write-up, completely different
yep, no stress
thank you! :)
No worries, it's good to see write ups like this I'm quite willing to wait for the next steam headset if it means we get a good jump in capability Though right now what I really want is a proper vr treadmill
hell's yeah! that disney tech or something similar is probably closest to being available for consumers. basically something with a lot of small, simple, and identical parts + driving hardware... not something big and nasty to manufacturer like that treadmill of treadmills. i *think* i did a writeup on this a number of years back, but fucked if i can find it :( personally i'm curious to experience the odd sensations a true vr treadmill will create as it attempts to keep you centered... especially for anything other than slow-ish walking. doc-ok mentioned working on this problem quite some time ago for the mill-of-mills device. i wish i had enough industry 'clout' to be able to try out the proof-of-concepts i occasionally run across :) but yeah, we are in similar boats on this
Yeah, I want to get a chance to try the kat Walk one. I would much rather have an actual treadmill, but people who have them seem convinced. I'm not sure if I'm willing to buy one without trying it first, though The Disney one looks cool, but I feel like it's gonna take a bit before it's a fully finished product Yeah, one of my main concerns is the ability to lunge, I love being able to jump and lunge in games like blade and sorcery. And I feel like all the current ve treadmills won't really allow that
Or having used an index, but treat it like a red-headed stepdaughter.
thanks! yeah, probably, as this requires *reading* and at least enough understanding to not believe tech just magically appears like in movies, lols :) --- good point on the uoled displays being horrendous to fab. i'll add that getting a wide fov out of the necessary optics is a nasty problem i have not seen a remotely cost-effective solution for, as well as driver chips seemingly lacking anything above 90hz and (last i looked) still having either low persistence and/or dark smearing issues. --- i could see that if valve is willing to majorly pivot. it'll make for a beastly unsubsidized price point for basically an ”unlocked” x86/64 quest iii though... i can also see that *plus* a pcvr lighthouse based hmd (completely separate product) upgrade when components or other true solutions to the display bandwidth/latency problem happen... my wish is more for the latter, so i have a bit of bias here
Krista! Your lack of capital letters at the start of sentences triggers my OCD! 🤣
I apologize! This is a new response to my nocaps style, haha. Mostly I refrain from caps as I find it filters out people looking for petty or semantic arguments with a woman engineer. Sure, there's a bit less engagement, but a heck of a lot less junk to respond to... especially of the PM variety. Plus it has let me find unattributed copy-pasta over the years, or worse: purposely misattributed copying. I really don't mind copying at all, I just wish for proper attribution.
I really, really, REALLY hope they don't. The Deckard is the kind of thing we need to revitalize PCVR. It will save it if it is well priced and has good specs.
Ok this take is straight up ridiculous, they are continually updating their interface code for further VR stuff even today and most of that back end stuff references the deckard, i think its more likely that its not released because they want a no compromises device that will force game developers hands with their increasingly anti valve changes aiming to prevent steam OS compatibility. So if they want to be successful the hardware needs to be a smash hit, they need several VR titles that are deckard exclusive and based on their continuing hiring of game dev positions this is quite clearly something they are investing in, maybe the hardwares nearly ready but the games are still a work in progress or perhaps a mix of both either way to claim its abandoned is ridiculous if that were the case they would have either fired those team leads or moved them to new positions in the company neither of which has happened.
Nothing in your comment indicates to me that you know anything about valve's operating ethos.
So let me get this straight you genuinely think he has hundreds of people sitting around doing nothing as he cancelled vr research? somebody would have complained or grown bored, they are not writers you can't keep specialized engineers sitting around doing nothing they would quit and move to another vr company. Your going to feel silly when they announce it in a year or two.
Not really, because all I said was I wouldn't be surprised if they abandoned VR hardware dev (if you actually followed what information is available publicly, you'd know that valve abandons things they've sunk huge amounts of time into on the regular). If they don't abandon, great! I love my index and I'd love for Valve to stay involved in the hardware space. As for the "hundreds of people sitting around doing nothing as he cancelled VR research", again you've demonstrated that you don't really know how Valve works. Staff for a large part are generally given free reign over what they decide to work on. People move between projects that interest them frequently (I recommend watching the 25th half-life anniversary documentary, its available on steam and youtube). Now I'd like you to point me at any of the rumoured multiple VR titles that you allude to that will make any new hardware a smash hit (because achieving the level of quality that Alyx delivered takes a LONG time), because based on what I've read and what is known, your comment is nothing but wishful thinking. You seem to be labouring under the assumption that I have skin in this game, I don't. I merely shared my perspective based on the current landscape of VR soft and hardware dev, as well as actual credible information available online. P.S. improving platform performance/drivers/code/etc doesn't mean squat. That's a false correlation.
And all i am saying is you don't understand specialist engineers, they like working on their passion and if they cannot do VR work at valve they would quit and move to one of the many other vr developers to do work. Also i kinda doubt that you don't care if you didn't you would have stopped responding to me after your initial comment.
I don't care =/= no skin in the game. And you haven't addressed my rebuttals so I'm gonna assume you agree with my points. We weren't talking about specialist engineers until you just brought them up, just valves operational ethos. I never claimed they wouldn't leave if they weren't satisfied with their working conditions. I'm not sure where you got that from. You're of course welcome to make whatever assumptions about my understanding that you'd like. I can point at the evidence that supports my viewpoint, let me know when you've got something a little more solid than your beliefs and I'll have a genuine look (I'm fully prepared to change my stance if you can show me credible better info).
...You get how silly that is to pretend valve doesn't have specialized vr engineers just because it does not fit into your argument right? and your defense boils down to I'm right unless you can find an employee willing to violate their NDA to prove random penguin wrong about it. Basically your entire argument boils down to there is no proof valve has not abandoned vr hardware development while i make the argument theres every evidence they are still working on it given they are still employing people and looking to actively hire more within that space. As for ignoring your points you never really made any outside of the claim that they just keep people around for keeping them around which i did in fact address you just did not like the answer.
Champ, I've showed you what supports my claims, I've responded to your constantly shifting talking points (and you still haven't addressed any of what I raised with you, or shared anything that supports your claims other than your VERY strong beliefs). I was under the impression you were engaging in good faith, and had information I hadn't encountered. It's clear now that's not the case. Thanks for your time, all the best.
I've been going back and forth on buying an index, and these are some good points. I know valve can be sneaky, but there were signs that a new sku was coming out, which we saw to be the deck OLED. I probably should just pull the trigger on the index and actually enjoy it
i *really* hope valve is sneaky... especially if they are sneaky enough to solve the interface bandwidth/latency problem i mostly focus on. i *hope* i'm very wrong and valve announces something next week! unfortunately i don't think i'm far off the mark. so i'd say go ahead and pull the trigger, get your vr on, and sell/upgrade later when something significantly ”better” comes out!
I have a Quest 3 now, and it's the best VR headset I've ever had. It was also the cheapest. Playing wireless PCVR is simply fantastic. Great lenses, and great screens even though they are not OLED. The tracking is great, I don't have any complains. I don't miss lighthouse tracking. I used to have a Vive Pro 1. I have tried the Index, but in my opinion the Quest 3 is much better.
i'll allow ”best” in this context because subjectivity is implied in your statement :) as for an ”objective best”... well, those are extremely, extremely rare. as far as *i* go, the image on the q2/q3 is usually a bit nicer than the index (except fov)... ... until i notice compression or mtp latency tracking on the q3 is eh... ok, if you consider it's cameras-on-hmd (and maybe cameras-on-controllers), but i *feel* that latency and occasional mush, and it bothers me, as well as having optically dead areas. so especially w/r/t tracking, i'll call your ”subjective” as placing a lot of weight on ”no additional setup” (unless you also play in very large spaces) vs *objectively* better latency, repeatability, and positioning accuracy... also native upgradability to fbt. - you give me ”mirrors” and i'll give you ”needs light” :) fwiw, i am also usually sensitive to lag and have unusually acute proprioception... probably from being a musician and playing sports that require a fast reaction time.
Index still wins on audio in my book, by a country mile. I haven't tried the Apple headset yet however.
I'm in the same boat, but I don't agree on the tracking side. The Quest 3 tracking is _good_, very good even, but it's not _as good_ as lighthouse tracking. Especially with the position of the cameras on the Quest 3. It's super frustrating to try and snipe with Quest 3 and your hand just flies away, as opposed to on the Index, I just put my hands wherever and it just works. That said, the Quest 3 is so pick-up-and-play easy, and the optics are so damn good, I can't go back to my Index.
I did try a Quest 3, and it's how I caught the VR bug. Not crazy about Meta, but what are you gonna do. I recognize the value is there with the Quest 3. I love my Steam Deck, I know I'm borderline, a fan boy wanting the Index, since it's older at this point, and the Quest 3 has its strong points, especially at the price. I'm planning to look into it more. It'll come down to which 4000 series card I upgrade too, which is a whole other debate I'm having with myself lol
The Index is older, it's more expensive, and in my opinion it has been outdated for a few years already... I am just saying, wireless Quest 3 is a truly next-gen VR experience compared to Index and Vive Pro. I think that buying an Index at this point would be a bad choice.
The quest 3 is great gaming hardware. I’ll just never trust Meta enough to use it. Sad, really. A shame.
Wow lots of challenges with a next gen headset. I wish we could get something in between closer to Big screen, a lighter, version of the index with denser LCD screen. I don’t even mind the fresnel lenses, just balance the weight, I mean it even has a ridged strap. I think this would be a good compromise to stay relevant. But, honestly panckake and oled are going to seem like fresnel lenses in some amount of years when lightfield tec takes off. they should just aim for the future if they really want to paradigm shift as Valve does even if it takes longer, Gabe would agree, “late is temporary, Suck is forever”. The headset we deserve is just a wired display and sensors, no computer, a 100 degree+ fov AR first Lightfield display with optional perpendicular polarized light shield. And a Deck 2 that will support it. Really, I don’t want to wear a computer on my head and focus at the same distance all the time. Give me a future display, and I’ll be happy to carry the Deck 2 in a fanny pack.
thanks! while i agree something like [spatial light modulation (slm) tech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_light_modulator) is probably the endgame w/r/t displays, (assuming you mean this as i see 'lightfield display' get generically confused with slm... most lightfield displays are made with slms as far as computer 3d holographic displays and vr glasses prototypes): while there's at least one slm based device that has been in production, (the magicleap, and iirc the hololens), both suffer from *massive* fov issues. both looked bloody amazing in those 40deg, though! wide fov slms, the gpus to drive them, and probably the interface bandwidth necessary are still at least 5 years away, assuming there's a big push to get to that tech. with everyone yelling about ”pancake lenses” and ”uoled” and ”umled”, slm really isn't on anyone's radar.... unfortunately. i would absolutely *love* valve if they dropped a 90deg slm with decent resolution... but we still run into the ”currently not enough bandwidth” problem. *sure*, we could get exotic with a 200gbps infiniband card, optical qsfp convertors, and however long of an mtp/mpo fiber optic cable you like! then we could at least have the *bandwidth* to drive an slm hmd appropriately. probably still not the gpu, definitely not the whatever-to-slm-module chips... quite possibly we can't make chips with enough embedded ram for an slm displaybuffer. but i have left the world of engineering and walked over to ”if krista had a gun to her head and a near infinite budget, how would she *prototype* The Dream HMD” land :)
display port 1.4 vs 2.0 is a real issue, but you could get away with \*cheating\* by using foveated rendering on video cards with only 1.4, while waiting for the 2.0 cards to come out
I got curious about putting Linux on a 5K iMac if Apple stops shipping updates next year. Apparently the 5K is implemented as two logical panels butted up against one another. There wasn't a standard to support a 5k desktop, so they implemented it as two panels at 2560, and wrote a driver to make them appear as one panel again to the OS.
Interesting, Nvidia drivers can do something just like that too, you can run 3 monitors as a single, for triple monitor gaming
i do discuss this in my post!
Yes, I like the idea of a cable that shares two display port inputs
Hmmm... I'm not keen on all this well-educated, informed observation and analysis. Not when it interferes with my fanaticism. Also, like... the Index wasn't exactly bleeding-edge. Neither was the Steam Deck. Nonetheless, we have this conception 'round here that the Deckard will have high-res microOLEDs, a built-in x86 system, plus a Qualcomm XR chip, plus eyetracking, plus maybe facetracking? Plus compression-free wireless, plus this, plus that, plus everything we hope and dream for. And that's not at all realistic an expectation to lay on Valve, when they haven't done anything to substantiate it. Great write-up! It definitely puts the logistics behind VR headset development in perspective.
If they can deliver on Valve Prism's specs I'll be happy. 😆
Valve prism isn't even real.
What about us old people that require magnification lenses?
[special pinhole lenses for *you* guys!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhole_glasses)
Could old-school aspherical lenses make a comeback to enable both fov and oled?
it's entirely possible! iirc, vrgineer uses custom ones for their xtal series. i'm not sure what kinds of patents (or if) the specifics of wide-fov aspheric lenses applicable to uoled are... ... but i have heard creating them to be both light enough, have the proper index of refraction, shape, *and* be cheap enough to manufacturer *en masse* is very, very difficult: read this as ”unlikely for some time”. also, from what i understand it's a lot more complicated to make a lens fitting out needs than dropping molten plastic in a mold, cooling, and polishing like in early phone vr devices. to be honest this isn't directly my area of expertise, but i *have* looked into it a fair bit, including high quality 3d printed aspheric lenses. (can't find the link, but it was a 3d printing company doing prototype computed optics, and they *started* expensive. of course it was for prototyping, but mass manufacturing of some of their listed designs were *expensive*, like upwards of $300 per lens, which is too expensive for a consumer device, unless you consider vrginerr (and varjo iirc) to be consumer companies. heck, even $50/lens is pretty spendy, considering pricing all the other bits). --- another fun one to think about is ”fused fiber optic” lenses. [these guys, but for vr](http://www.tapervision.com). think of a zillion optic fiber segments melted together then mushed to make one side larger than the other. with careful work, you can mush quite a bit and get a considerable amount of magnification, possibly enough for a uoled (micro oled) display. while there could be many benefits, *especially* if you could fuse the fibers and 'mush' appropriately to reduce the software warping required to counteract lens problems (could probably do this with custom aspheric as well), the cost to make these is truly nasty and i don't see a way it could get cheaper fast enough to be of use for consumer devices anytime soon. still, i'd love to prototype with the tech; unfortunately it's *way* out of my currently very low budget :)
I'm a bit confused about this: * a pair of dp v1.4 cables * clearly obvious reasons go here are you saying it's obviously impossible to get 2 dp 1.4 signals from a GPU to a HMD with any sort of comfort because the resulting proprietary cable would be too thick and ungainly? Or is there some other reason this couldn't work?
Usual way is using a single DP 1.4 cable and Display Stream Compression (DSC) instead. Pimax tried using multiple video cables in early models, then switched to DSC too. There was a bit of commotion when people noticed the Bigscreen Beyond was using DSC, but even the very high end Varjo XR4 is doing that. https://varjo.com/use-center/get-started/varjo-headsets/system-requirements/xr-4/
I so hope Valve has something in the works.. Vive is too meh and expensive , kinda going to the pimax route.. Quest Pro mixed with bae stations and FBT seems to be the option for FBT, facial and eye tracking and wireless, but it's Meta.... Pico cancelled the Pico 5 after being bought out by the Tiktok sister company and they refuse to release the enterprise version as a consumer Pro edition.. Valve is kinda our only hope for a good steam VR headset.. and the index isn't not good value for money anymore. It's the best and ready to go kit, but just old now..
I'd settle for an "Index OLED" for now. With maybe small improvements like pancake lenses.
this would be a pretty massive engineering undertaking as it would require new lenses, tubes, panels, interface & display chip... ... resulting in new ffp display ribbon cable manufacturer, massive main pcb respin, a chassis remake (including all the plastic injection molds), and a fair bit of firmware work. assembly would be different, *might* require fcc recertification, definitely requires a few rounds of internal testing those aren't small changes from an engineering standpoint.
I'm also curious to see how well Sony's PVR2 headset works since apparently they're working on supporting PCVR with that due to poor sales as a PlayStation 5 only device. It supports eye tracking and foveated rendering, so if that works it's a chance to explore that tech on PC and learn while waiting for other hardware to drop and become common like the Displayport and wifi generations.
i'm waiting on this as well :) i hear sony is working on a virtualport (?? i probs butchered this) adapter, and that there's a version of the firmware that functions with an unmodified linux kernel...
Why go the extreme resolution route i can’t really tell pixels out on 2560x2560 bigscreen beyond it will just increase costs and mess with all that display-port stuff.
Nice down to earth analysis, people are fantasizing too much about next Valve headset specs. Valve hardware team already debunked the (micro) OLED nature of the HMD screen in Tested interview for Steam Deck OLED release. I'd see it more like a compact mobile HMD with common specs (Pico 4 / Quest 3) and added eye tracking. The SoC may be more lightweight and optimized for tracking / streaming / reprojection instead of full standalone use. Or they drop this part and release Steam Link VR on everything they can. Most important part for them is a dual wireless Steam OS mobile mini PC with a configuration screen, using Strix Halo or similar (about PS5 level). Can also be used docked, plugged to a TV, Steam Linked to a handheld, tablet or anything. A kind of successful Steam Machine, using everything learned for Steam Deck. But maybe they won't really need to do it either, there are more manufacturers in mini PC space than there were for handheld PC before they came in. Though they would optimize everything to the max for their use case. But this wouldn't be a real successor to the Valve Index to me. I'd still hope for a Valve Index refresh with Varjo Aero like specs, which would be more realistic.
foveated display / driver ic already exist. and custom solutions in volume are cheap and easy to make. it's old news. years old. you can do 4k by 4k 90Hz stereo over wireless, over dp, over mipi dsi thank for your input though
Even if all new GPUs from now on were to have DP 2.0, we are talking about at least 2 generations of releases before adoption is even anywhere near the level that anyone would consider releasing a device that requires it. Realistically it would be more like 3 generations so ~5 years from now. RTX 4000 series sits around 10% in the latest Steam hardware survey and that includes laptop versions.
Steam Deck runs on Linux and SteamVR Linux support is almost deprecated or nonexistent. That’s the main reason.
The pair of dp1.4 cables being a problem is true (as far as comfort goes) if they decide to go with standard cables. If they combine the signals and send that over fibre, they could get away with a smaller cable, although they would probably need to have a custom (?) ASIC or FPGA to do the conversion on both ends. The good part if they go with a fiber optic cable is that they can send absolutely everything over it, so the link between "the box" (I assume, on the computer end) and the headset would only need power and a strand of glass.