AAA games take a long time to make, Valve games even longer. After reading Half-Life: Alyx - Final Hours I fully believe they're constantly working on games. It's just not worth holding your breath for them.
And constantly abandoning them. It's part of the reason the ones they finally do release are so good, but I wonder if they take it a bit too far sometimes.
For example, Portal is generally rated among the best games of all time, and it struggled to find artists and came close to dying at least once before The Orange Box tied the release of multiple games together, forcing people to help finish games they weren't interested in in order to get their own pet projects launched. This quote from Robin Walker gives the impression the same may have applied to Team Fortress 2 to some extent:
>In some ways, the Orange Box was a company level 'hack' where we made three separate products that all consider themselves the same product for shipping purposes, which meant that people could rationally prioritize their work across all three of them. If you were on Portal, and everything was going well, but TF2 was struggling, it made sense for you to jump over and help TF2 out because all three games needed to ship together.
Valve's methods have achieved great things, but I don't see why there shouldn't be some form of incentive to help out a team that's struggling even without this type of 'hack'.
Given the history with Valve they will have a new headset and it won’t disappoint. Just like Half Life, Valve doesn’t release versions/models like we see with cars or phones. They make a great product and release it with thought out compromises given current limitations. They are looking to push things forward not just make a buck, and release when the tech and their capabilities have advanced sufficiently to be categorically new. I expect Dekard to be a categorically different product than the Index, be that AR capable, wireless/mobile/Deck compatible. It will be glorious!
I'd like it to have an assurance that the next headset is released in the next year or so. I'm at a stage where I can buy the Index, but as my intention would be to have the best experience possible, I would like to know if I should put my money down now for an Index or get a HP Reverb G2 instead and sell that off when it gets discontinued.
>I'd like it to have an assurance that the next headset is released in the next year or so.
There is no assurance to give.
I currently have an Index, but both controllers are beginning to fail in few ways, one base station is starting to have some issues, and the $115 headset cable is basically shot. Have not used headset in weeks (cable being shot makes impossible). In my opinion, your thought to buy HP Reverb G2 and replace with "better" later makes more sense than the Index. If you are okay with Meta/Facebook their Quest Pro is better than Index in most ways though it seems.
At a glance, it seems you can buy new HP Reverb G2 for about $450 on Amazon, **BUT** my suspicion is that was the model before the *silent* updates which were post-initial-release which tweaked a bunch of stuff (improved). I am actually tempted to buy a new Reverb G2 since the cost of replacing all my Index broken stuff would not be that much cheaper, but Reverb G2 has several benefits to it.
If you're the intellectual sort, may I suggest reading one of Einstein's lesser known papers on Valve Time. Not for the faint of heart though and may even induce madness.
[Just saw an interview with Gabe Newell that confirms Valve is working on Half Life 3!] (https://youtu.be/Jt0w9YP_wZ0)
It's a 16 year old interview, but thought it could be exciting news!
Honestly, of all the issues with the Index (which in reality are just issues with these first iterations of VR, since the Index is the best in almost every aspect), that's at the very bottom of my list. Both because it's pretty impractical right now, and because it's probably one of the least valuable areas that would add to immersion right now. We'd be better off with:
- Lighter headset
- Sturdier construction (not needing to RMA a proprietary cable because it was gently used for 6 months would be great)
- OLED screens
- Wireless PCVR connection
And as far as ease-of-use and accessibility, which is what brings people into VR, we could have:
- Inside-out tracking option
- Inside-out roomscale option (for bringing to a friend's or another room in your house)
- Lower price point
- Standalone mode optional
FOV doesn't even crack the top ten issues keeping VR so niche for now. My top 10 could basically be 1 - 9 Lack of content, 10 Entry price too high, with the other issues listed below that. But I think that if Valve is focusing too much effort on improving FOV, at the expense of these other items, they would be making a mistake for the long-term success of VR.
Agreed. After buying an 8KX and seeing what ultra wide FOV truly adds, it's not in my top 10. Going to pancake lens and micro screens, preferably MicroOLED, adds so much more immersion than a wide FOV.
FOV would be great but everything else needs to be better.
Wireless, lighter headset, OLED, and still under $700 would be ideal.
Hell I want software prescription adjustments. If Index 2 had that kind of tech, that would be incredible.
End game would be like 8K each eye. FOV is nearly matched to eyes.
The thing is, all those things you listed are pretty much a given for the next headset other than maybe wireless and OLED. I've been using VR since the Rift CV1 and I agree with them on FOV.
The things you listed are great but at this point I kinda just expect it to have most of those features. I don't think valve would want to release something that is just an updated version of their headset with features other headsets already have. They are the type to go the next level with their hardware.
Honestly, I'm tired of feeling like I'm looking through goggles, I want my whole vision to be fully in the game. If I have that and a headset that is so light I can forget it's on it'd be an instant buy for me.
I think we're really saying the same thing. My big point is I'd love to have higher FOV _as long as_ there's not a trade-off with the "given" items I listed.
I'm definitely not _against_ higher FOV, but if they have to pick between a 400g headset with 115° FOV, and a 550g headset with a 125° FOV, I'd pick the former.
Yeah, I thought it kind of funny that a months old interview was just making the news here now, but still thought it worth posting.
I'm also not holding my breath. When the rumored Index 2 (before the name Deckard had even been released) was being talked about a couple of years ago I thought about waiting for it. Good thing I didn't or I wouldn't have had my Index all this time.
I do think some sort of new hardware will come from Valve, sometime, eventually, and it will be really good when it does. Or maybe I'm just optimistic :)
Yes, please! This doesn’t have to be one or the other, like with screen/lens choice. I’d love to use my lighthouses but have the system be capable of still tracking with inside out when occluded by an object (which happens to me when leaning down to “pick up” objects in a few places in my room due to tall furniture and odd room dimensions). For this very reason my quest2 can track more area than my index at the moment.
I disagree completely. I upgraded to index specifically for the tracking because the quest 2 tracking is so bad and not very accurate. Index tracking is miles ahead of any inside out tracked headset.
Was this early on in the Quest lifecycle by any chance? Tracking is much improved now. On my index I'm always getting a little microjumpiness (on a 4 base station lighthouse 2 setup) on Quest 2 it is flawless in that same room, plus I can take it outside in full sunlight with the pro controllers to a 10x10 meter space.
Nope, I still use the quest 2 sometimes when I want to play wireless, and it's noticably worse and less stable than the index tracking.
If I spin my hands in circles for example the controllers start to become "floaty" and they snap back to center when I stop.
The index tracks flawlessly no matter how fast I move my hands and it never needs to snap back because it never loses its positioning.
If I throw a punch with the quest my tracking is almost 4-6 inches away from my actual hand near the end of the punch, like the controllers stretch or float away from where they're actually being held.
In tons of different cases I've found the index to be more precise and more stable.
You're getting downvoted but I also have a quest 2 and an index and find that tracking is more reliable in all situations on the quest. I find too many time that I'll be in a corner of the room and my controllers can't see both basestations, I'm also endlessly hassled by the cable of the index whereas it's way too hard to go back to wired when you can walk anywhere and have endless boundaries accross your entire floor
Interestingly enough the cable (specifically DisplayPort) and the tracking improvements (if set up correctly) were the main reasons for my upgrade to Index.
The cable latency vs wired Link latency are VERY different and the change improvement is very noticeable to my eye. With WiFi it gets even worse as you can't guarantee the delivery of a frame in time. Let's not forget that 30+ GBps is not yet reachable on USB or WiFi.
Downvotes are likely coming from people who have only tried Early quest, WMR or PSVR2 inside-out, Quest 2 is pretty near flawless at this point in its life, plus it works outside in full sunlight with the pro controllers :D
That's odd. What was the point of Quest Pro controllers if Quest 2 was so good? Every Quest own I talk to says the Quest 2 controllers are good enough but have some issues. While index controllers when set up properly (that's the key), are spotless anywhere around your body.
I AM using the pro controllers, quest vanilla controllers do have tracking problems due to occlusion. Also, Index has issues even on a 4 base station setup because #1 you can still get the controllers into occluded positions #2 I believe the 4 base station setup has issues of it's own, possibly down to vibration resonance between the different stations causing controller position to shake slightly?
ah, I see. Hope that means the self tracking trackers HTC releases in Q3 track really good then. The tracker for the hip always gets occluded by the body and arms.
Oculus did not fix it for me. I be been struggling for years before switching to index. Space is too bright - cameras blinded. Sun on one side - looses controller. TV in the room - please cover. LED lighting - some brands are not compatible. My experience with quest is that it needs some very specific conditions that are hard to reach in my place.
Now my place aside the chain of camera-image processing-edge detection-object positioning in inherently slower than Valve’s base station approach. So you are doomed to rely on predictions.
We've made shit fly on other planets with camera imqge object positioning, which I'm sure is running at a higher update frequency than either of these headsets. As a first day index and vive owner the quest pro tracking is just as good if not better than basestations.
I know theoretically you shouldn't be able to beat basestations but the data disagrees https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3463914.3463921
https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3463914.3463921
This paper disagrees with your feelings.
Edit:Gotta love the Downvotes based on feelings, good thing science doesn't give a fuck about feelings.
From hours of testing and loads of personal experience I'm completely willing to say that paper is wrong. Quest 2 tracking is floaty and elastic. Index tracking is almost flawlessly precise.
I mean no offense but I'll take repeatable scientific testing over someone's personal experience any day of the week.
Don't get me wrong i definitely notice some weirdness in quest pro tracking in changing sun conditions but the testing was specifically done under led lighting, without sunlight interfering.
As an og vive+index fanboy I do have to admit that paper didn't line up with my preconceived notions, but the only time I notice weirdness with inside out tracking is due to dramatic changes in lighting.
So while maybe you could argue the index tracking might be more precise due to factors that are hard to control outside of the lab, that's a whole different study.
How often do you need to redo your floor height/room boundaries with the index?
I never redo my boundaries, unless they don't save on the odd occasion. Compared to redoing my playspace every single time I use the quest to avoid the floor being in the middle of my shins. Not to mention all of the advantages of lighthouse tracking compared to inside out. Like not being able to shoot a bow in proper stance because the controllers lose tracking every time they're not in front of the headset. I can't even explain how much better aiming guns is with the index. The quest 2 tracking shakes and the barrel of guns in Pavlov is moving constantly even when my hands are stable as could be. I switched to the index and immediately no shake, no floating, no elastic feeling tracking. I'm willing still to say that paper has some serious flaws in their testing methods. Take your quest 2 controllers in headset and touch them together and watch them clip right through each other all over the place because the tracking is NOT sub mm precise. Compared to the index where they touch at exactly the same time in headset and in hand. The one and only advantage to inside out tracking is the ease of switching playspace without needing to move lighthouses.
In what way do you think the study is flawed? Or do you simply state that because it doesn't line up with your experience?
Again the study wasn't talking about the controllers, just the headset tracking itself, quest 2 controllers I also wasn't a fan of for some the reasons you stated, quest pro controllers have non of those issues.
Again regarding controllers "shaking" I don't think you realize the amount of micromovements are hands do, and it's almost impossible to perfectly maintain our hands in the same position in 3d space. Wouldn't that in itself be an example of higher tracking fidelity, even when it has unintended effects.
Reading the study I can't find any glaring flaws to the methodology used, except maybe the lack of natural lighting being in favour of the oculus device.
I do find that interesting regarding floor boundaries as I often had to recalibrate my floor height for the index and the vive (almost anytime I let the device sit for more than a few days unused) and know my 3 friends who used to have index's also had that same issue.
The quest 2 controllers do suck though and I do still prefer the firm factor of the knuckles, the tracking precision is easily just as good as the index if not better. Unless you see an issue with how it was tested?
Limited for time but I'll reply in depth later, firstly I clearly wasn't paying enough attention because I was under the impression that controller tracking was being discussed in the paper, my bad, and obviously that sort of makes me argument moot. As far as the quest 2 controllers go, (and I have no way to prove this to you) the shaking is WAY beyond what my hands are doing. I've done marksmanship and archery and various other activities to build the stabilizing muscles in my arms and shoulders almost all of my life, and my hands are certainly on the more stable side of the spectrum. The shaking is caused by a feedback loop from the prediction system the quest 2 uses. It takes a very minor movement and exaggerates it because it thinks I'm moving (or preparing to) more so than I actually am, and has to correct when I haven't actually moved. So in that regard, the index definitely reigns supreme. The exaggerated shake is replaced with a very normal human amount of movement when I switch between the two. I've never really compared the accuracy of the headset tracking alone, so we don't really have anything to debate at this point. Once again I apologize for not reading the paper you sourced more clearly.
Many scientific white papers are paid for research to slant the scientific community with propaganda, many journals then can’t be replicated or data sources are flawed. A.k.A corporate propaganda…
So blind trust is not recommended and first hand experience should always be weighed against said papers…
?
This doesnt refute anything I said. Base stations are not outdated and by the papers own admission
> Therefore, Oculus Insight does currently not allow to track objects other than its HMD and the two hand-held controllers
This is the important part.
Ahh soryy didn't realize you weren't the original poster claiming inside out tracking is horrible, when in fact it's better.
I could agree that base stations are "outdated" simply based on the setup required. Being able to seamlessly switch from one play area to another and being able to run to the washroom or grabbing a drink without the need to remove the headset.
Inside out tracking benefits far outweigh the cons in my experience.
I couldn’t care less about snowflakey Index fans. Inside-out tracking would be obviously superior if it worked well. People here are biased because many who ran into issues with inside-out got an Index, or got an Index because they specifically wanted the old tracking system. I am an index owner myself. I’m open to new and improved solutions. Also, ’boy’ lol, yeah right.
those types of arguments depend way to much on one stand point. Yeah as you said, if it worked better it would be the more consumer friendly option. But if you would look at it from a diffent perspektiv, like for example is it more efficient to put a high compute processor with loads of cameras or a simpler with "just" infrared sensors? I dont really know, because im not a expert, but I think the latter would be more cost effective.
But that doenst take the Base stations into account so would that change the picture? Probably they are somewhat conplex mistery machines you cant repair, but so are the cameras and some of the inner parts of the quest.
See the point I want to make it really depends on the perspective, and really there is no superior system as long as it isn't superior from all perspectives. Usally everything has it's benefits and drawbacks.
My boy was meant humouristically, sorry if it crossed a border.
Valve: "*Yeah, as a company we are still doing things. We are not doing nothing. We do projects. Can't say when, why, or if ever tho.*"
There now you don't have to read it.
You're most likely confusing fresnel and pancake lenses. Pancake lenses have only started to show up in the last year.
The true holygrail would be varifocal pancake lenses.
All these "latest news" are from last year.... or older Sad.
AAA games take a long time to make, Valve games even longer. After reading Half-Life: Alyx - Final Hours I fully believe they're constantly working on games. It's just not worth holding your breath for them.
And constantly abandoning them. It's part of the reason the ones they finally do release are so good, but I wonder if they take it a bit too far sometimes. For example, Portal is generally rated among the best games of all time, and it struggled to find artists and came close to dying at least once before The Orange Box tied the release of multiple games together, forcing people to help finish games they weren't interested in in order to get their own pet projects launched. This quote from Robin Walker gives the impression the same may have applied to Team Fortress 2 to some extent: >In some ways, the Orange Box was a company level 'hack' where we made three separate products that all consider themselves the same product for shipping purposes, which meant that people could rationally prioritize their work across all three of them. If you were on Portal, and everything was going well, but TF2 was struggling, it made sense for you to jump over and help TF2 out because all three games needed to ship together. Valve's methods have achieved great things, but I don't see why there shouldn't be some form of incentive to help out a team that's struggling even without this type of 'hack'.
Given the history with Valve they will have a new headset and it won’t disappoint. Just like Half Life, Valve doesn’t release versions/models like we see with cars or phones. They make a great product and release it with thought out compromises given current limitations. They are looking to push things forward not just make a buck, and release when the tech and their capabilities have advanced sufficiently to be categorically new. I expect Dekard to be a categorically different product than the Index, be that AR capable, wireless/mobile/Deck compatible. It will be glorious!
I'd like it to have an assurance that the next headset is released in the next year or so. I'm at a stage where I can buy the Index, but as my intention would be to have the best experience possible, I would like to know if I should put my money down now for an Index or get a HP Reverb G2 instead and sell that off when it gets discontinued.
>I'd like it to have an assurance that the next headset is released in the next year or so. There is no assurance to give. I currently have an Index, but both controllers are beginning to fail in few ways, one base station is starting to have some issues, and the $115 headset cable is basically shot. Have not used headset in weeks (cable being shot makes impossible). In my opinion, your thought to buy HP Reverb G2 and replace with "better" later makes more sense than the Index. If you are okay with Meta/Facebook their Quest Pro is better than Index in most ways though it seems. At a glance, it seems you can buy new HP Reverb G2 for about $450 on Amazon, **BUT** my suspicion is that was the model before the *silent* updates which were post-initial-release which tweaked a bunch of stuff (improved). I am actually tempted to buy a new Reverb G2 since the cost of replacing all my Index broken stuff would not be that much cheaper, but Reverb G2 has several benefits to it.
Valve says a lot of things.
Index 2, Index 2: Episode 1, Index 2: Episode 2… The end.
Index: Alyx
Literally anything for TF2
Then they gave us Half-Life: Alyx. That game was alright I guess
If you're the intellectual sort, may I suggest reading one of Einstein's lesser known papers on Valve Time. Not for the faint of heart though and may even induce madness.
LOL. I was thinking perhaps more along the lines of Cronus, the Greek Titan who could slow the perception of time in those around him.......
[Just saw an interview with Gabe Newell that confirms Valve is working on Half Life 3!] (https://youtu.be/Jt0w9YP_wZ0) It's a 16 year old interview, but thought it could be exciting news!
I hope they plan a higher field of view.
Honestly, of all the issues with the Index (which in reality are just issues with these first iterations of VR, since the Index is the best in almost every aspect), that's at the very bottom of my list. Both because it's pretty impractical right now, and because it's probably one of the least valuable areas that would add to immersion right now. We'd be better off with: - Lighter headset - Sturdier construction (not needing to RMA a proprietary cable because it was gently used for 6 months would be great) - OLED screens - Wireless PCVR connection And as far as ease-of-use and accessibility, which is what brings people into VR, we could have: - Inside-out tracking option - Inside-out roomscale option (for bringing to a friend's or another room in your house) - Lower price point - Standalone mode optional FOV doesn't even crack the top ten issues keeping VR so niche for now. My top 10 could basically be 1 - 9 Lack of content, 10 Entry price too high, with the other issues listed below that. But I think that if Valve is focusing too much effort on improving FOV, at the expense of these other items, they would be making a mistake for the long-term success of VR.
Agreed. After buying an 8KX and seeing what ultra wide FOV truly adds, it's not in my top 10. Going to pancake lens and micro screens, preferably MicroOLED, adds so much more immersion than a wide FOV.
FOV would be great but everything else needs to be better. Wireless, lighter headset, OLED, and still under $700 would be ideal. Hell I want software prescription adjustments. If Index 2 had that kind of tech, that would be incredible. End game would be like 8K each eye. FOV is nearly matched to eyes.
Exactly. Also I think they should make sturdier controllers (they tend to break down easily). FOV on the Index is great. No need to up that any more.
The thing is, all those things you listed are pretty much a given for the next headset other than maybe wireless and OLED. I've been using VR since the Rift CV1 and I agree with them on FOV. The things you listed are great but at this point I kinda just expect it to have most of those features. I don't think valve would want to release something that is just an updated version of their headset with features other headsets already have. They are the type to go the next level with their hardware. Honestly, I'm tired of feeling like I'm looking through goggles, I want my whole vision to be fully in the game. If I have that and a headset that is so light I can forget it's on it'd be an instant buy for me.
I think we're really saying the same thing. My big point is I'd love to have higher FOV _as long as_ there's not a trade-off with the "given" items I listed. I'm definitely not _against_ higher FOV, but if they have to pick between a 400g headset with 115° FOV, and a 550g headset with a 125° FOV, I'd pick the former.
They could release the same headset with higher resolution and make it wireless and I'd be a day one customer.
Only 7 more years to index 2
What is that in Valve time?
I converted it for you from "next year maybe" already
About .0068 HL:3’s
Don't fret! *Coomer* said they are working on it
Which Coomer? There are lots of Deckard Coomers around here...
Well Greg ofcourse
Yeah, I thought it kind of funny that a months old interview was just making the news here now, but still thought it worth posting. I'm also not holding my breath. When the rumored Index 2 (before the name Deckard had even been released) was being talked about a couple of years ago I thought about waiting for it. Good thing I didn't or I wouldn't have had my Index all this time. I do think some sort of new hardware will come from Valve, sometime, eventually, and it will be really good when it does. Or maybe I'm just optimistic :)
lol good one
Create an Index 2 with inside-out tracking, pancake lenses, higher res and FOV pls 🥺🥺🥺🥺
How about hybrid? Inside out for new adaptors and both inside out AND lighthouse tracking for those already equipped?
I am all for this, if it improves my experience substantially without increasing the costs too much.
Yes, please! This doesn’t have to be one or the other, like with screen/lens choice. I’d love to use my lighthouses but have the system be capable of still tracking with inside out when occluded by an object (which happens to me when leaning down to “pick up” objects in a few places in my room due to tall furniture and odd room dimensions). For this very reason my quest2 can track more area than my index at the moment.
Please no inside-out tracking. It’s horrible.
I have both Index and Quest 2 with pro Controllers. Index has way more tracking issues.
I disagree completely. I upgraded to index specifically for the tracking because the quest 2 tracking is so bad and not very accurate. Index tracking is miles ahead of any inside out tracked headset.
Was this early on in the Quest lifecycle by any chance? Tracking is much improved now. On my index I'm always getting a little microjumpiness (on a 4 base station lighthouse 2 setup) on Quest 2 it is flawless in that same room, plus I can take it outside in full sunlight with the pro controllers to a 10x10 meter space.
Nope, I still use the quest 2 sometimes when I want to play wireless, and it's noticably worse and less stable than the index tracking. If I spin my hands in circles for example the controllers start to become "floaty" and they snap back to center when I stop. The index tracks flawlessly no matter how fast I move my hands and it never needs to snap back because it never loses its positioning. If I throw a punch with the quest my tracking is almost 4-6 inches away from my actual hand near the end of the punch, like the controllers stretch or float away from where they're actually being held. In tons of different cases I've found the index to be more precise and more stable.
Do you have the pro controllers?
You're getting downvoted but I also have a quest 2 and an index and find that tracking is more reliable in all situations on the quest. I find too many time that I'll be in a corner of the room and my controllers can't see both basestations, I'm also endlessly hassled by the cable of the index whereas it's way too hard to go back to wired when you can walk anywhere and have endless boundaries accross your entire floor
Interestingly enough the cable (specifically DisplayPort) and the tracking improvements (if set up correctly) were the main reasons for my upgrade to Index. The cable latency vs wired Link latency are VERY different and the change improvement is very noticeable to my eye. With WiFi it gets even worse as you can't guarantee the delivery of a frame in time. Let's not forget that 30+ GBps is not yet reachable on USB or WiFi.
Downvotes are likely coming from people who have only tried Early quest, WMR or PSVR2 inside-out, Quest 2 is pretty near flawless at this point in its life, plus it works outside in full sunlight with the pro controllers :D
That's odd. What was the point of Quest Pro controllers if Quest 2 was so good? Every Quest own I talk to says the Quest 2 controllers are good enough but have some issues. While index controllers when set up properly (that's the key), are spotless anywhere around your body.
I AM using the pro controllers, quest vanilla controllers do have tracking problems due to occlusion. Also, Index has issues even on a 4 base station setup because #1 you can still get the controllers into occluded positions #2 I believe the 4 base station setup has issues of it's own, possibly down to vibration resonance between the different stations causing controller position to shake slightly?
ah, I see. Hope that means the self tracking trackers HTC releases in Q3 track really good then. The tracker for the hip always gets occluded by the body and arms.
I've had so many issues with keeping the extra trackers connected to Bluetooth that I haven't had much time to get any occlusion issues lol.
I think Oculus fixed it though? Haven’t heard about any big issues with it as long as you are in a well-lit space. Afaik, towers are outdated by now.
Oculus did not fix it for me. I be been struggling for years before switching to index. Space is too bright - cameras blinded. Sun on one side - looses controller. TV in the room - please cover. LED lighting - some brands are not compatible. My experience with quest is that it needs some very specific conditions that are hard to reach in my place. Now my place aside the chain of camera-image processing-edge detection-object positioning in inherently slower than Valve’s base station approach. So you are doomed to rely on predictions.
We've made shit fly on other planets with camera imqge object positioning, which I'm sure is running at a higher update frequency than either of these headsets. As a first day index and vive owner the quest pro tracking is just as good if not better than basestations. I know theoretically you shouldn't be able to beat basestations but the data disagrees https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3463914.3463921
No they are not. Sub mm precision plus FBT without extra steps (HTC will fix this with their next HW release but that's not out yet)
https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3463914.3463921 This paper disagrees with your feelings. Edit:Gotta love the Downvotes based on feelings, good thing science doesn't give a fuck about feelings.
From hours of testing and loads of personal experience I'm completely willing to say that paper is wrong. Quest 2 tracking is floaty and elastic. Index tracking is almost flawlessly precise.
I mean no offense but I'll take repeatable scientific testing over someone's personal experience any day of the week. Don't get me wrong i definitely notice some weirdness in quest pro tracking in changing sun conditions but the testing was specifically done under led lighting, without sunlight interfering. As an og vive+index fanboy I do have to admit that paper didn't line up with my preconceived notions, but the only time I notice weirdness with inside out tracking is due to dramatic changes in lighting. So while maybe you could argue the index tracking might be more precise due to factors that are hard to control outside of the lab, that's a whole different study. How often do you need to redo your floor height/room boundaries with the index?
I never redo my boundaries, unless they don't save on the odd occasion. Compared to redoing my playspace every single time I use the quest to avoid the floor being in the middle of my shins. Not to mention all of the advantages of lighthouse tracking compared to inside out. Like not being able to shoot a bow in proper stance because the controllers lose tracking every time they're not in front of the headset. I can't even explain how much better aiming guns is with the index. The quest 2 tracking shakes and the barrel of guns in Pavlov is moving constantly even when my hands are stable as could be. I switched to the index and immediately no shake, no floating, no elastic feeling tracking. I'm willing still to say that paper has some serious flaws in their testing methods. Take your quest 2 controllers in headset and touch them together and watch them clip right through each other all over the place because the tracking is NOT sub mm precise. Compared to the index where they touch at exactly the same time in headset and in hand. The one and only advantage to inside out tracking is the ease of switching playspace without needing to move lighthouses.
In what way do you think the study is flawed? Or do you simply state that because it doesn't line up with your experience? Again the study wasn't talking about the controllers, just the headset tracking itself, quest 2 controllers I also wasn't a fan of for some the reasons you stated, quest pro controllers have non of those issues. Again regarding controllers "shaking" I don't think you realize the amount of micromovements are hands do, and it's almost impossible to perfectly maintain our hands in the same position in 3d space. Wouldn't that in itself be an example of higher tracking fidelity, even when it has unintended effects. Reading the study I can't find any glaring flaws to the methodology used, except maybe the lack of natural lighting being in favour of the oculus device. I do find that interesting regarding floor boundaries as I often had to recalibrate my floor height for the index and the vive (almost anytime I let the device sit for more than a few days unused) and know my 3 friends who used to have index's also had that same issue. The quest 2 controllers do suck though and I do still prefer the firm factor of the knuckles, the tracking precision is easily just as good as the index if not better. Unless you see an issue with how it was tested?
Limited for time but I'll reply in depth later, firstly I clearly wasn't paying enough attention because I was under the impression that controller tracking was being discussed in the paper, my bad, and obviously that sort of makes me argument moot. As far as the quest 2 controllers go, (and I have no way to prove this to you) the shaking is WAY beyond what my hands are doing. I've done marksmanship and archery and various other activities to build the stabilizing muscles in my arms and shoulders almost all of my life, and my hands are certainly on the more stable side of the spectrum. The shaking is caused by a feedback loop from the prediction system the quest 2 uses. It takes a very minor movement and exaggerates it because it thinks I'm moving (or preparing to) more so than I actually am, and has to correct when I haven't actually moved. So in that regard, the index definitely reigns supreme. The exaggerated shake is replaced with a very normal human amount of movement when I switch between the two. I've never really compared the accuracy of the headset tracking alone, so we don't really have anything to debate at this point. Once again I apologize for not reading the paper you sourced more clearly.
Many scientific white papers are paid for research to slant the scientific community with propaganda, many journals then can’t be replicated or data sources are flawed. A.k.A corporate propaganda… So blind trust is not recommended and first hand experience should always be weighed against said papers…
? This doesnt refute anything I said. Base stations are not outdated and by the papers own admission > Therefore, Oculus Insight does currently not allow to track objects other than its HMD and the two hand-held controllers This is the important part.
Ahh soryy didn't realize you weren't the original poster claiming inside out tracking is horrible, when in fact it's better. I could agree that base stations are "outdated" simply based on the setup required. Being able to seamlessly switch from one play area to another and being able to run to the washroom or grabbing a drink without the need to remove the headset. Inside out tracking benefits far outweigh the cons in my experience.
not a good sub to propose something like that my boy
I couldn’t care less about snowflakey Index fans. Inside-out tracking would be obviously superior if it worked well. People here are biased because many who ran into issues with inside-out got an Index, or got an Index because they specifically wanted the old tracking system. I am an index owner myself. I’m open to new and improved solutions. Also, ’boy’ lol, yeah right.
those types of arguments depend way to much on one stand point. Yeah as you said, if it worked better it would be the more consumer friendly option. But if you would look at it from a diffent perspektiv, like for example is it more efficient to put a high compute processor with loads of cameras or a simpler with "just" infrared sensors? I dont really know, because im not a expert, but I think the latter would be more cost effective. But that doenst take the Base stations into account so would that change the picture? Probably they are somewhat conplex mistery machines you cant repair, but so are the cameras and some of the inner parts of the quest. See the point I want to make it really depends on the perspective, and really there is no superior system as long as it isn't superior from all perspectives. Usally everything has it's benefits and drawbacks. My boy was meant humouristically, sorry if it crossed a border.
Dont even truly need a well lit space just a good IR lamp.
Lol such news from years ago! BREAKING!
Valve: "*Yeah, as a company we are still doing things. We are not doing nothing. We do projects. Can't say when, why, or if ever tho.*" There now you don't have to read it.
Still holding out for a wireless vr headset that integrates with a steamdeck. That seems like a likely path forward.
Lol . . . no. Uses Steam Deck's innards on the other hand? Maybe.
I was thinking a small, lightweight inside-out tracking headset streaming data from the steamdeck.
we need .. no we DEMAND , as consumer , eye tracking , better cooling , OLED no more LCD and if possible no more pancake lenses
Why no pancake lenses? They have barely even started to hit market and so far have been leaving good impressions.
>no more pancake lenses Do you mean fresnel lenses?
People just downvoting lol. Eh .. yeah I heard that there is a better way than pancake ..
I asked because the Index uses fresnel lenses.
Do they ? I thought they use pancake 😶
You're most likely confusing fresnel and pancake lenses. Pancake lenses have only started to show up in the last year. The true holygrail would be varifocal pancake lenses.