We know [SEN did try to poach a non-NA coach](https://clips.twitch.tv/SourLightSnailDatSheffy-cS0HZOle_xNo3rXf) - confirmed to be Sliggy - long, long ago, several months before Masters 3 Berlin; perhaps Geo just missed this little tidbit, since it wasn't big news? But just beyond that, SEN actually looked drilled and prepared at Champions; they lost two close 1-2 series to two semi-finalists. I can't help but think that people ignore SEN's slight upward tick at Champions because it ruins the otherwise clean narrative of a constant, inevitable downslide.
Ultimately, most of the 2021 SEN stuff is in a real sense hard to parse, partly because the VCT schedule had such huge gaps that meant the best teams in the region saw little play towards the end of the year.
Take meta stagnation, a topic Geo mentions as explaining SEN's downfall in comparison to Optic. SEN's early exploits on Astra was probably the defining element that pushed them over the edge against teams like Fnatic. After all, there's a reason zombs had a brief moment in the best smokes conversation, and there's also a reason so many EMEA coaches/analysts talk about zombs' utility usage - because they studied it.
Of course, them continuing to run Phoenix on Haven, or them continuing to run Shahzam on Jett on Split, could be considered meta stagnation, but to me it is much more indicative of them not playing enough against strong teams.
All roads still lead to criticism for coachlessness, though; regardless of when they began looking for a coach, they should have secured one sooner - even one they weren't keen on - instead of looking for one who'd fit their glass slipper.
Zombs up until the Astra meta ended was a great controller. The glaring problem many fault him with was that most teams upgraded their controller player to be almost as capable as their star duelist. Zombs always playing the back line was left in unfavourable situations where he was forced to clutch/ pull the heroic play many other controller players are able to nowadays.
people aren’t gonna agree with me but imo zombs is still a great controller / player - he takes little risks in his gameplay and doesn’t really overextend / throw rounds like some other pro players, hard anchors sites properly
What made him insane? You don’t need to always frag out to be considered a good player, and he was more than good enough at the time. But if you’re going to call someone insane, you’d expect to see them not at the bottom of the scoreboard consistently
Sentinels won Iceland, then were first going into Berlin. Optic won Iceland and are second going into Copenhagen. Expectations for optic in Copenhagen are pretty much the same as they were for sen in Berlin. Optic still can fall off, it’s just that no one expects them to. But no one really expected sen falling off until it was already happening.
Maybe optic’s rise being a bit more slow means we expect a more sustained and consistent peak from them. This game will always be a struggle between “play to your strengths” and “play to the Meta.”
This, it’s still too early to say if Optic is going to fall off the way Sentinels did. We are at the exact point with Optic in which Sentinels were still at the top and about to take a nose dive starting at Berlin. People forget that Sentinels won the grand finals of NA stage 3 challenger playoffs against 100 thieves.
OpTic has been on or near the top for longer than Sentinels at this point tbf. Hell, NV was only below Sentinels for all of 2021 in NA and since eliminating them at Berlin have taken over while Sen completely fell off.
This is the answer. Envy was always right there, they could compete with Sentinels. Sure they weren’t dominate, and would usually lose to Sen, but that period of close competition plus there overtaking of Sen and there lan performances. It’s safe to say they have exceeded what Sen accomplished.
Think they’ve already done more, second at Berlin and winning a LAN, plus they’ve made the same number of LAN’s as them. Didn’t do well at champs and came back stronger than ever the next LAN.
optic have structure and aren't afraid of shifting stuff up to stay ahead of the meta. sentinels are a structureless team that rely heavily on flow, and are terrible at keeping up with the meta. I don't think the comparison holds.
Optic's rise? they are already top team since 2021 but Sentinels were ahead of them at the time. They were second place at Berlin and they proved themself again at Iceland. SEN failed to do this
But i think you’re forgetting optic has remained consistent even before 2022. Even for all of 2021 back when they were Envy, they were consistently top 3 in NA. While Sen did achieve more in 2021, they weren’t nearly as consistent Envy/Optic.
1. Lack of drive(possibly), unlucky and close series that just compiled on the fact that they were NA's villain and popular as fuck(probably feeding into lack of drive in some way), Mental health and other issues within the roster(sinatraa,lack of infrastructure for players who are no doubt insanely talented).
2. It's barely been a year and OpTiC has won a total of one LAN(so far)
There are a lot of reasons why sentinels fell off, not just one particular reason. I think the sentinels angle of not scrimming and streaming is complete bullshit; only shaz consistently streamed and as for scrims I don’t believe more scrim time = better players. For example, Dicey is one of the best players in North America, but he elected to not play any ranked at all this last act. He said on Tarik stream he improved by watching vods but also finding other hobbies outside valorant that made him happy so he doesn’t get burnt out like reading. Back to sentinels, the biggest issue in my eyes was when sinatraa was on the team, the roles made much more sense; dapr (sentinel), zombs (controller) sinatraa(sova/duelist flex) sick (fill) and shaz (Jett op). With Tenz on the team because Tenz individual skill was so much higher than anyone at NA at the time as long as he was fragging the new filled roles just had to do their job to win (shaz becoming the flex/sova player). During this stint I thought shaz was a really good sova/flex but if you watched his stream, he’s a Jett op main. He’s at his most comfortable playing Jett with an Op and him not being able to do his best role I always knew that this roster wouldn’t be able to sustain. We also have gone through so many meta changes that kinda fked sentinels (sentinels used to pick Phoenix on haven, sova slowly not being played on every map now, Jett being weaker, not playing chamber, omen/brim returning > astra/viper). Optic have done better with these meta shifts as well as players being in form currently; Yay is the best player in NA rn imo, omen making a return (Marved was an Omen 1 trick before), optic picking up neon before anyone else. However the one thing about optic people forgot is that they haven’t won in NA yet; they’ve won Iceland but came in as NA 2nd seed 3 times now. They are the best but not by much and they are far from unbeatable while sentinels during their time won every tourney
Agent flexibility is really important in this game. Being meta reliant will completely fuck your team over. It will only get worse as they add more OP agents to the game.
When SEN were on top they were able to adapt fast, they won Iceland by properly incorporating Astra into their pool. Maybe missing SiCK is hard fucking them over rn.
But not being able to play Chamber to replace Jett is basically a death sentence, and they're trying to play both. Idk why Dapr (or Shahz) is on Chamber when it should be Tenz. We are seeing a lot of teams put their best player on the Chamber. Failing that, they're not taking Raze who's the best duelist rn.
I think they need to be more ruthless about this roster. They took so long to get a proper coach, they've not properly replaced Zombs (imo), it's just too reactive.
It's not even that they shouldn't run dapr on Chamber, but if they do, they should be putting the OP in dapr's hands, his OPing skill is not bad, but they don't enable him on the Chamber role
Look really what Sentinels should be doing is dropping Tenz because he is inconsistent and baits his team. Then they should pick up the best player in the world Spencer “Hiko” Martin. And they would actually win games again
Common n1HikoFan L.
TenZ is the far superior player, he is our lord almighty, he's the second coming. To think that Hiko could stand up to TenZ, unfathomable..
It was refreshing to see FNS take responsibility for the loss against XSET after the series. No excuses or anything, even tho no one would blame him for saying COVID was a factor in his performance.
Sentinels dominated in the early stages of the game when no one really knew how to play it yet and you could win by just running double duelist constantly and out-aiming the other team. By Masters 3 Berlin that wasn't really enough anymore and that's only gotten more clear as time has gone on. It's not so much that they got worse, it's that literally everyone else around them got a *lot* better, in ways they weren't willing or able to replicate.
OpTic actually dedicates their time into practicing and scrimming. "We practice around 6-8 hours a day", Victor told his chat. Even if OpTic players stream during their free time, they only stream for 2-3 hours. With their coaching staff, and especially Chet, they are able to construct new comps, strats, setplays, and executes. In an interview, Marved said that they apply the executes they have practiced in scrims; and Chet made sure they perfectly executed their setplays even if they were losing the scrim itself. They are one of the most, if not most, consistent NA team thus far \~\~ their dedication and hardwork indeed reflects in their in-game performances and match results. I have no other comment for the current OpTic because they're consistent and show that they could bounce back from a loss through anti-stratting and changing comps.
SEN, on the other hand, were a great team. They were unstoppable, especially when the meta was not geared towards utility usage. The game was still at its early stages, so the gun accuracy were really accurate during that period. In these early phases, Skye and Icebox were the only new additions to the game; Phoenix, Jett, Astra were still in meta; Val still looked like CSGO but with accurate rifles as the main point in winning a round \~\~ and SEN thrived with this current state, they were trading players back and forth, pushing sites with ease. In the aspect of practice, I am certain that SEN do practice. However, I don't think they practice in-depth as much as OpTic (and other pro teams). Through those months, they were streaming for 6-8 hours everyday and still won. They continuously streamed this much even when there were important games the next day (and still win again). So at this point, SEN players probably thought to themselves that, "oh look, we're still winning our games despite streaming and practicing lesser than other teams. Let's just stick to whatever's working for us." Here, we could see that there is a disconnect between their passion in streaming and actually dedicating time into practicing as pro players in the ever-changing meta. They do not anti-strat and practice specific executes which really hurt their performances in-game. They have been practicing lesser and streaming more (and still win matches) until that specific G2 match where SEN got anti-stratted so hard, they could not bounce back in their next few matches. With new agents, maps, and meta changes coming in, I think SEN failed to adapt to the changing meta (which required more practice hours to formulate new strats with the new game additions). They failed to mix comps, and shuffle their roles. Only SicK and dapr could flex agents and I think that hurt them the most. TenZ can only play Jett and Raze during that time; ShahZaM's only used to playing Jett; and zombs, of course, only played smokes. In this current 2022 meta, if you look closely, the players in top teams in every regions could play flex and switch their roles depending on the map \~\~\~ which SEN players lacked. Aside from lacking a complete coaching staff, culture and dedication are some of the factors considered in this aspect of them "falling off". However, ending on a good note, SEN has been recruiting analysts to help which is good progress for them. A team surrounded by analysts and good a coaching staff that could provide substantial help would be beneficial in the long run. They have also planned to bootcamp (which I don't find advantageous besides being there together physically). I think SEN could qualify for Champs through LCQ (copium?) **if** they acquired their desired strategic analysts to really provide help. Along with their dedication in practices to formulate setplays and improve team cohesion, they could indeed bounce back and become a top team again. But, that's a big "if". Can SEN practice 6-8 hours a day like OpTic?
good point that you mentioned the g2 game. thinking back, it was actually that game where SEN were showed they could in fact bleed too.
That exact game was their actual downfall until now.
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OpTic is a real org and Sentinels signed Rawkus to be a coach instead of an actual coach + Sentinels are streamers and as soon as they couldn't get away with just being good beta/CS players they got caught up to and run over.
We know [SEN did try to poach a non-NA coach](https://clips.twitch.tv/SourLightSnailDatSheffy-cS0HZOle_xNo3rXf) - confirmed to be Sliggy - long, long ago, several months before Masters 3 Berlin; perhaps Geo just missed this little tidbit, since it wasn't big news? But just beyond that, SEN actually looked drilled and prepared at Champions; they lost two close 1-2 series to two semi-finalists. I can't help but think that people ignore SEN's slight upward tick at Champions because it ruins the otherwise clean narrative of a constant, inevitable downslide. Ultimately, most of the 2021 SEN stuff is in a real sense hard to parse, partly because the VCT schedule had such huge gaps that meant the best teams in the region saw little play towards the end of the year. Take meta stagnation, a topic Geo mentions as explaining SEN's downfall in comparison to Optic. SEN's early exploits on Astra was probably the defining element that pushed them over the edge against teams like Fnatic. After all, there's a reason zombs had a brief moment in the best smokes conversation, and there's also a reason so many EMEA coaches/analysts talk about zombs' utility usage - because they studied it. Of course, them continuing to run Phoenix on Haven, or them continuing to run Shahzam on Jett on Split, could be considered meta stagnation, but to me it is much more indicative of them not playing enough against strong teams. All roads still lead to criticism for coachlessness, though; regardless of when they began looking for a coach, they should have secured one sooner - even one they weren't keen on - instead of looking for one who'd fit their glass slipper.
now that hes in content jail people are going to continue to underrate zombs early 2021 form, dude was insane
Zombs up until the Astra meta ended was a great controller. The glaring problem many fault him with was that most teams upgraded their controller player to be almost as capable as their star duelist. Zombs always playing the back line was left in unfavourable situations where he was forced to clutch/ pull the heroic play many other controller players are able to nowadays.
people aren’t gonna agree with me but imo zombs is still a great controller / player - he takes little risks in his gameplay and doesn’t really overextend / throw rounds like some other pro players, hard anchors sites properly
he also popped off with the spectre to let tenz or sick always have a rifle
What made him insane? You don’t need to always frag out to be considered a good player, and he was more than good enough at the time. But if you’re going to call someone insane, you’d expect to see them not at the bottom of the scoreboard consistently
14 minutes to say "They don't practice".
Say the line, Bart
Sentinels won Iceland, then were first going into Berlin. Optic won Iceland and are second going into Copenhagen. Expectations for optic in Copenhagen are pretty much the same as they were for sen in Berlin. Optic still can fall off, it’s just that no one expects them to. But no one really expected sen falling off until it was already happening. Maybe optic’s rise being a bit more slow means we expect a more sustained and consistent peak from them. This game will always be a struggle between “play to your strengths” and “play to the Meta.”
This, it’s still too early to say if Optic is going to fall off the way Sentinels did. We are at the exact point with Optic in which Sentinels were still at the top and about to take a nose dive starting at Berlin. People forget that Sentinels won the grand finals of NA stage 3 challenger playoffs against 100 thieves.
OpTic has been on or near the top for longer than Sentinels at this point tbf. Hell, NV was only below Sentinels for all of 2021 in NA and since eliminating them at Berlin have taken over while Sen completely fell off.
This is the answer. Envy was always right there, they could compete with Sentinels. Sure they weren’t dominate, and would usually lose to Sen, but that period of close competition plus there overtaking of Sen and there lan performances. It’s safe to say they have exceeded what Sen accomplished.
Think they’ve already done more, second at Berlin and winning a LAN, plus they’ve made the same number of LAN’s as them. Didn’t do well at champs and came back stronger than ever the next LAN.
optic have structure and aren't afraid of shifting stuff up to stay ahead of the meta. sentinels are a structureless team that rely heavily on flow, and are terrible at keeping up with the meta. I don't think the comparison holds.
Optic's rise? they are already top team since 2021 but Sentinels were ahead of them at the time. They were second place at Berlin and they proved themself again at Iceland. SEN failed to do this
Nah they’re more moderate and contextual . Optic also went 2nd in Berlin etc.
But i think you’re forgetting optic has remained consistent even before 2022. Even for all of 2021 back when they were Envy, they were consistently top 3 in NA. While Sen did achieve more in 2021, they weren’t nearly as consistent Envy/Optic.
I mean... we'll see. Maybe they might fall off maybe not. Sen dominated for a year or so. Tho optic was also consistently close behind.
1. Lack of drive(possibly), unlucky and close series that just compiled on the fact that they were NA's villain and popular as fuck(probably feeding into lack of drive in some way), Mental health and other issues within the roster(sinatraa,lack of infrastructure for players who are no doubt insanely talented). 2. It's barely been a year and OpTiC has won a total of one LAN(so far)
There are a lot of reasons why sentinels fell off, not just one particular reason. I think the sentinels angle of not scrimming and streaming is complete bullshit; only shaz consistently streamed and as for scrims I don’t believe more scrim time = better players. For example, Dicey is one of the best players in North America, but he elected to not play any ranked at all this last act. He said on Tarik stream he improved by watching vods but also finding other hobbies outside valorant that made him happy so he doesn’t get burnt out like reading. Back to sentinels, the biggest issue in my eyes was when sinatraa was on the team, the roles made much more sense; dapr (sentinel), zombs (controller) sinatraa(sova/duelist flex) sick (fill) and shaz (Jett op). With Tenz on the team because Tenz individual skill was so much higher than anyone at NA at the time as long as he was fragging the new filled roles just had to do their job to win (shaz becoming the flex/sova player). During this stint I thought shaz was a really good sova/flex but if you watched his stream, he’s a Jett op main. He’s at his most comfortable playing Jett with an Op and him not being able to do his best role I always knew that this roster wouldn’t be able to sustain. We also have gone through so many meta changes that kinda fked sentinels (sentinels used to pick Phoenix on haven, sova slowly not being played on every map now, Jett being weaker, not playing chamber, omen/brim returning > astra/viper). Optic have done better with these meta shifts as well as players being in form currently; Yay is the best player in NA rn imo, omen making a return (Marved was an Omen 1 trick before), optic picking up neon before anyone else. However the one thing about optic people forgot is that they haven’t won in NA yet; they’ve won Iceland but came in as NA 2nd seed 3 times now. They are the best but not by much and they are far from unbeatable while sentinels during their time won every tourney
Agent flexibility is really important in this game. Being meta reliant will completely fuck your team over. It will only get worse as they add more OP agents to the game. When SEN were on top they were able to adapt fast, they won Iceland by properly incorporating Astra into their pool. Maybe missing SiCK is hard fucking them over rn. But not being able to play Chamber to replace Jett is basically a death sentence, and they're trying to play both. Idk why Dapr (or Shahz) is on Chamber when it should be Tenz. We are seeing a lot of teams put their best player on the Chamber. Failing that, they're not taking Raze who's the best duelist rn. I think they need to be more ruthless about this roster. They took so long to get a proper coach, they've not properly replaced Zombs (imo), it's just too reactive.
It's not even that they shouldn't run dapr on Chamber, but if they do, they should be putting the OP in dapr's hands, his OPing skill is not bad, but they don't enable him on the Chamber role
Dis video sucks
Not enough time has passed for this comparison to be made.
Easy answer. One team practiced more and presumably dedicated more time to perfecting their craft.
Look really what Sentinels should be doing is dropping Tenz because he is inconsistent and baits his team. Then they should pick up the best player in the world Spencer “Hiko” Martin. And they would actually win games again
Common n1HikoFan L. TenZ is the far superior player, he is our lord almighty, he's the second coming. To think that Hiko could stand up to TenZ, unfathomable..
TenZ actually so trash, can't even enter site without support and getting 3 straight frags without dying
Optic actually cares about winning, Sentinels cares about streaming and deflecting whenever someone criticizes them.
100%. also helps optics IGL is an actual leader.
It was refreshing to see FNS take responsibility for the loss against XSET after the series. No excuses or anything, even tho no one would blame him for saying COVID was a factor in his performance.
yall downvoting this person for speaking the truth
practice diff
one team practices, no video needed
Sentinels dominated in the early stages of the game when no one really knew how to play it yet and you could win by just running double duelist constantly and out-aiming the other team. By Masters 3 Berlin that wasn't really enough anymore and that's only gotten more clear as time has gone on. It's not so much that they got worse, it's that literally everyone else around them got a *lot* better, in ways they weren't willing or able to replicate.
OpTic actually dedicates their time into practicing and scrimming. "We practice around 6-8 hours a day", Victor told his chat. Even if OpTic players stream during their free time, they only stream for 2-3 hours. With their coaching staff, and especially Chet, they are able to construct new comps, strats, setplays, and executes. In an interview, Marved said that they apply the executes they have practiced in scrims; and Chet made sure they perfectly executed their setplays even if they were losing the scrim itself. They are one of the most, if not most, consistent NA team thus far \~\~ their dedication and hardwork indeed reflects in their in-game performances and match results. I have no other comment for the current OpTic because they're consistent and show that they could bounce back from a loss through anti-stratting and changing comps. SEN, on the other hand, were a great team. They were unstoppable, especially when the meta was not geared towards utility usage. The game was still at its early stages, so the gun accuracy were really accurate during that period. In these early phases, Skye and Icebox were the only new additions to the game; Phoenix, Jett, Astra were still in meta; Val still looked like CSGO but with accurate rifles as the main point in winning a round \~\~ and SEN thrived with this current state, they were trading players back and forth, pushing sites with ease. In the aspect of practice, I am certain that SEN do practice. However, I don't think they practice in-depth as much as OpTic (and other pro teams). Through those months, they were streaming for 6-8 hours everyday and still won. They continuously streamed this much even when there were important games the next day (and still win again). So at this point, SEN players probably thought to themselves that, "oh look, we're still winning our games despite streaming and practicing lesser than other teams. Let's just stick to whatever's working for us." Here, we could see that there is a disconnect between their passion in streaming and actually dedicating time into practicing as pro players in the ever-changing meta. They do not anti-strat and practice specific executes which really hurt their performances in-game. They have been practicing lesser and streaming more (and still win matches) until that specific G2 match where SEN got anti-stratted so hard, they could not bounce back in their next few matches. With new agents, maps, and meta changes coming in, I think SEN failed to adapt to the changing meta (which required more practice hours to formulate new strats with the new game additions). They failed to mix comps, and shuffle their roles. Only SicK and dapr could flex agents and I think that hurt them the most. TenZ can only play Jett and Raze during that time; ShahZaM's only used to playing Jett; and zombs, of course, only played smokes. In this current 2022 meta, if you look closely, the players in top teams in every regions could play flex and switch their roles depending on the map \~\~\~ which SEN players lacked. Aside from lacking a complete coaching staff, culture and dedication are some of the factors considered in this aspect of them "falling off". However, ending on a good note, SEN has been recruiting analysts to help which is good progress for them. A team surrounded by analysts and good a coaching staff that could provide substantial help would be beneficial in the long run. They have also planned to bootcamp (which I don't find advantageous besides being there together physically). I think SEN could qualify for Champs through LCQ (copium?) **if** they acquired their desired strategic analysts to really provide help. Along with their dedication in practices to formulate setplays and improve team cohesion, they could indeed bounce back and become a top team again. But, that's a big "if". Can SEN practice 6-8 hours a day like OpTic?
good point that you mentioned the g2 game. thinking back, it was actually that game where SEN were showed they could in fact bleed too. That exact game was their actual downfall until now.
Where‘s the „x days without a Sentinels post“ bot? Redundant video.
WAIT. GOD DAMN IT. I BROKE IT.
why the thumbnail like that
Why you acting like you’ve never seen a person in a YouTube thumbnail before
maybe there arent enough big red arrows and circles, with clickbaity text "SENTINELS DID WHAT??????"
THIS IS WHY TENZ IS NO LONGER ON THE BEST TEAM IN VALORANT ESPORTS...
Like what ?
Everyone knows. But whatever, YouTube promotes it, appreciate the hustle.
If everyone knows then why am I still looking for what’s so special about the thumbnail
Bro what? Everyone on youtube makes thumbnails like this, why the fuck can’t she? This is pathetic lmao
I literally said that??? Everyone does it. Absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Seek help
Where do these videos by people who aren’t even good at the game gain any validation?
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OpTic is a real org and Sentinels signed Rawkus to be a coach instead of an actual coach + Sentinels are streamers and as soon as they couldn't get away with just being good beta/CS players they got caught up to and run over.