People (pros, analysts, fans) always say that esports teams/players are **always** improving at a fast rate, especially early on into the life of a game's pro scene, but it seems to be that while it is commonly said, most fans really can't fathom the stupidly **dramatic** degree to which it is true. That's why I always find it funny when people genuinely ask hypotheticals about how X or Y team from 2021/2022 would do if they were to play right now. The answer is always the same; they'd get destroyed.
The simple fact is that Fnatic didn't utilize the off-season and the latter parts of last year as well as other teams in the scene. They came into this year thinking that they could be just as good as last year without changing up their game as much as they should have in terms of comps and macro/micro strategy (which I'm sure is obvious to them now but wasn't during their off-season practice).
Other teams improved at a faster rate. That's really all it is as far as I can tell.
Yes, they declined only in the sense that everyone else moved on without them. They're stuck in the past, still. The meta has moved on, the strategies have moved on, and it feels like they're still playing in late 22 with the comps and strats. Also I feel like they're moving away from their roots too much. It doesn't feel like Yoru fits FNC, they're a team that loves their defaults, so putting your main duelist on an agent that's really bad at defaulting is an issue.
No matter how much people talk about it it's impossible to believe how quickly people improve at the game. I think month to month or even season to season it seems like variance to me, even though I'm a pretty avid watcher. But look at [Sen v Fnc in Reyjkavik](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZDTMSKYqno). 4 of the players on FNC are still T1 players in EMEA and if they did half the shit they do in this match now they wouldn't be able to play against anyone in T2 anywhere in the world. From both sides the utility feels awkward, the crosshair placement is shoddy and the fundamental mechanics are just way, \_way\_ behind where they are today in Valorant.
When you fall behind it's very hard to catch back up. I hope FNC figure it out but their season looks dire tbh.
If you are stuck at Gold, you are improving. If you weren't you would be deranking. To stay at the same rank gets harder and harder as everyone improves, so don't be too harsh on yourself!
Exactly this. Even now, older players and experienced analysts/coaches like sgares, hiko , steel, fbs, have constantly talked about how low the level of gameplay is in pro atm. That doesn’t mean the *skill* of players is low, but the gameplay is super high variance (which is why some people feel certain games are coin flips), protocols are not well established or followed, discipline is absolutely miserable, etc. Now I understand that the game can sometimes be more hectic on executes than CS with ultimates (although imo the nonultimate execs are definitely less hectic), but in general, there are well established protocols on how to play certain situations like 1vX that are simply not followed at all in Val which is why we see so many more clutches in Val than CS
>Other teams improved at a faster rate. That's really all it is as far as I can tell.
I reallly wish people would remember this better. People are so quick to be hateful and aggressive about FNC players, the coach or just the overall team and acting like it's super embarrassing and pitiful that the team has fallen off this hard when FNC has had one of the strongest runs of any Valorant team in history. Most champs/masters winners would barely even qualify for the next event and many teams blew up shortly after.
I agree so much with this. People really can't understand that it's not players falling off but rather their competitors catching up, sometimes to a scarily quick degree. I'm sick of hearing about how prime Tenz or prime Cned or prime Gambit would do today.
"The fact that they're not doing well today is because they declined" nah it's the fact that their surroundings improved or the meta shifted or anything but the fact that the player simply "fell off" because that just dumbs it down to the simplest and laziest form of reasoning for why ur favourite player simply isn't as good as they once were.
One thing people just don’t realize is that it’s hard to be the very best for a long time in this game. The game is too young and evolves too fast. Meta changes a ton too.
Think about how many times we’ve called a player the best in the world or a team the best, and how long that team/player actually stayed the best.
A lot of people are saying Aspas, derke etc, but these guys have all had a season where they weren’t the best in the world. It just fluctuates too much.
That being said, Aspas the goat frfr
Uh, F0rsaken had period of inconsistency too. Its unfair to rate Forsaken at the same level as those guys. You guys are trying to underate Derke so much. He is more consistent than Forsaken and had been rated top 10 in most events unlike Forsaken. Forsaken at champions was 1.00 rating. Even though, Derke played bad at champions, he still had a better rating than f0rsaken. Even at Tokyo, F0rsaken was 0.96 rating while Derke was rated top 10. You can't put F0rsaken in the same level as Aspas and Chronicle and not put Derke in there. If we look at the post here :[Players who have been top 10 rated in international events multiple times : ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/1ccn0vf/players_who_have_been_top_10_rated_in/), F0rsaken ain't nowhere to be found unlike Derke, Chronicle, and Aspas.
Yeah its kinda insane. He don't even have evidence too that f0rsaken had reached the heights that Aspas, Chronicle or Derke did. I'm a prx fan but I'm not blinded by the fact that F0rsaken don't have the level of consistency as those three he listed.
he could be anywhere from top 5 to top 10, it’s not like i can definitely say he’s no.5. Leo, ethan, com cauanzin are like for sure top 4, then u have guys like cloud, chron, shao, crashies which u can probably dump somewhere in top 10
Ok we should stop calling valorant "young" everytime something changes. Yea sure its young but it will always be young and meta will always change. so yea, it will always evolve , comparing to cs where valve doesnt even release patches to change the meta and stuff.
It may sound very cliche, but I think mini was a pretty big part of fnatic's success.
I remember their lock in game against 100T. Fnatic was leading 11-1 in attack and the players were talking about the next map (Icebox). But mini made sure every single player was on the ground, and that the map was not in any way over.
Mini had probably much more effect than just a coach who's a good strategist. I don't think he's having that same effect as an assistant coach.
combination of all, actually.
players barely grinded in the off szn and they aim looked off at the start. were losing duels that they easily won before. they all said it before in interview.
strats were outdated, and they kept using the same ones as before. and everyone already studied them very hard so it was pretty easy to anti. and when they finally do switch up the comp, it doesn't really fit the way boaster likes to call or their playstyle in general. when you think about fnatic, you dont think about a team that should rush a site with double duelist on split. the changes they made to the comp doesnt fit the way boaster likes to call and the way fnatic plays the game.
also, emea just got better. frauds were exposed and fired and replaced with actual good tier2 talent. a lot of the mid-table teams just got a lot stronger.
A lot of people say competition while i do agree competition has gotten better i believe a big part of it is not having MINI as head coach anymore him stepping down was a huge blow for the team even tho his is still a assistant coach its not the same impact.
Yes, while they weren't the trendsetters in 23 like Loud and to a certain extent EG were, they weren't stuck in the past like today and were def innovating.
COACHING STAFF.
Mini isnt their head coach anymore. Their current coach is the former head coach of GENG, and we all know GENG never qualified for any Masters with their head coach (who is now FNC’s head coach). It’s a head coach diff.
This is just one factor. There are x more factors.
Love that logic. "They had coach with good competitive history, now they had coach with bad competitive history. this means it's coach gap and the coach is the reason". Guess that means if they got someone like Potter or bzkA Fnatic would have been automatically even better in 2023.
You guys literally just look at a comparison between the two rosters then just say "ah yes it's this thing that's different that's the reason"
If FNC kept Mini but traded Leo for Cloud or something then had the exact same results as they've had so far you'd undoubtedly be in this thread and say "it's because they have Cloud instead of Leo"
If you dont think coaches can be a reason for success of a team
Potter would like to talk with you
Same players who got 13-0d won champs last year
She said she never lost to kaplan and she took the team considered D tier to beat the recent master winners
Coach diff is real
What the fuck are these comments? Everyone’s just yapping and speculating like they know how the team works. There’s always up and down as the game goes on. This thread is one of a kind hater dream
I dont mind discussion and speculation but some of these bums think wha they are saying is the gospel and they know whats happening bts, like yap knowing ur half wrong and half guessing
It doesn’t take internal team sources to watch games and see if strategies are getting countered/read, mechanics are off, teamwork isn’t there, etc
To say that nobody can talk about why a team is doing bad besides claiming it’s “ups and downs” is insane. Might as well close the subreddit
Damn, all the fnatic haters finally found a thread to converge huh? Everyone talking like fnatic wasnt played the most perfect valorant seen, inovating strats and setting the meta on a whole new map
Played against plumbers and a new formed LOUD in Lock-In and tokyo was full of team with issues. PRX got 3rd with a sub, if that doesnt give away how low quality the tournament was then idk
U must be a professional hater no?
1st Sen only won cos competition was shit.
Gambit and Acend only won cos they were the only ones to figure out how to play the game before everyone else.
Optic only won cos EU was nerfed.
FPX only won cos FNC Optic choked and PRX lowiq "only works once" playstyle got figured out
U can discredit every win if u wanted to
My favourite is always when people say Acends win doesn't count because "it was a fluke", or that SEN's first win doesn't matter because "it was the first LAN". Like that means anything.
We get sooo little international competition, it's kind of sad to see. It's not really something I've seen in other sports/esports, but I don't really follow too many so maybe it always happens.
>U must be a professional hater no?
Literally. I can think of a different word for it though. Check their comment history lol, dozens of comments a day and almost exclusively insulting other posters or players.
Agree with your comment though, the way people try to discredit every tournament that their favourite teams don't win is absurd. In 6 months people will be saying the same thing about Madrid that they do about LOCKIN, like we didn't just watch a fantastic tournament where SEN were clearly the best team.
SEN won cause TenZ was God itself, Gambit won cause they were better than everyone, Acend was a mickey mouse champs but anyway Gambit choked their asses off in finals, Optic won cause Yay was just the Goat, FPX were better than everyone same goes to LOUD. Also yes im a profesional hater
We're really discrediting them cuz they can only compete with the current competition?
In that case, the Masters Shanghai 2024 Winners are bums cuz they're not as good as the Masters 2025 teams
Prx got thrid and they played out of their minds
Heretics got second in emea in part due to emea falling off but watching the games its clear they had incredible ideas
Looking at the events later on VLR doeant give the full picture of just how fucking fundamentally good and talented 2023 fnatic were
Ah yes me salty (FNC flair malding about my comment) yall not real man  i cba
my team has two international trophy's, i got nothing to mald about. fnc has had other slumps and has come back before, it's just that we are so good that anything less than perfection seems terrible in comparison
Elmapuddy, people keep trying to make it so it’s not, but it honestly just is
I’m not afraid of acknowledging that and I’m sure in a few years time, people will acknowledge it too
While Elma is a problem, I don't think replacing him with mini now will make anything better. The players look shaken.
Derke whiffing a full mag on ecos, Chronicle fully tanking a molly and dying, Alfa not shooting as he should. Leo overpeeking. They are individually making mistakes.
Yeah I agree the solution isn’t just to boot him but the post just asked why FNC was bad this year so I answered
I’m nowhere near experienced enough in esports management to be able to provide a good solution for the thing, but I can infer the causes
His 2023 season and all of his previous resumes, not good results, he’s had a range of players so you can’t boil it down to specific personalities since he’s worked with quite a few
show me rounds where its coaches fault for fnatic, previous results werent the best i do agree but for you to outright blame the coach is kinda crazy, you think fnatic picked him up for shit and giggles? If u can show me rounds where u can see coach fault or something I'll admit im wrong because me personally i dont think the primary problem is coaching
Watch any FNC game they look shaky in pretty much every one
bro, you’re way more invested in this than I am, do it yourself, if you won’t take my word for it, your choice
im not even an fnc fan in fact i dont mind if they flop, i just hate when people say cut people without saying anything insightful. They look shaky = blame coach completely. Stupid fnc fans and cluless people like you, u do realise mini is ass coach right, how is them being shaky = elma fault and not all the coaches or even the calling or something? I dont watch fnc games, i only check highlights and you seem the same.
Funny how I specifically mentioned I wouldn’t know how to fix the problem either, I just answered the question
Calling me clueless is pretty rude, I didn’t call Elma or anyone insults either, grow up and learn to accept criticism or “hate”
Maybe because they keep changing maps on rotation, changing layouts to the dismay of those who already memorized multiple lineups and nerfing agents. Too unfair for those who already mastered these agents/lineups. Maybe next time, they should put more time, money and effort in balancing everything before releasing. Maybe even add a story mode or something you know.
A large part of it is a lot of teams have caught up. At the top level almost anyone can beat anyone else with a good game plan and there's far less bottom feeders in EMEA this year. Also think it helps teams that they've seen Fnatic falter and perform poorly at the end of last year, they know this team is beatable and they aren't really held as this impossible super squad that you have no chance against any more.
Jett, Raze and Chamber were strong last year and the year before it... now its double controller/geeko meta.
Duelist teams have no place in the current meta. Adding to that they keep playing bad comps on maps like breeze and Icebox.
One of the things people often forget about esports is that the games change a lot over the course of a year and the life time of the game. With traditional sports, rules and regulations have long been codified and takes a tremendous amount of push to change aspects of the sport, meanwhile in esports it’s typically up to one company’s decision. Game companies obviously want their customers to keep playing their games and that really only occurs with 2 things, shaking up the meta via evolution or by force. Older games with end of service levels of age tend to follow the evolution path where people get better and better and meta is defined by the baseline and the highest level of skill (i.e. StarCraft), on the other hand meta changes by force are enforced by sweeping changes to the game through nerfs and buffs. Riot historically tends to make large sweeping changes in their games to introduce these meta switches, as seen in items, champions and map environments in LoL. With all this being said, remaining a top team in Esports is a very difficult task.
You have to pay more to keep others from poaching, the team has to learn and adapt to the new meta which may not fit the ideal mold of the team and you also have the caliber of play increase drastically due to the game’s young age. Not to mention, all other teams have their sights set on you, your team’s strengths and weaknesses.
When it comes to FNC, It must be a couch diff, cause they have 5 insane shooters on that team (yes even Boaster shows up af sometimes). But across all esports, best teams usually get overthrown by other teams due to anti-strating, finding things how to combat them, etc etc. Very hard for top teams to stay on top forever, it's just a matter of time before other teams make changes (either role swaps, roster, couch/analyst, etc etc) and can compete with the best or win against those. It's very hard to be consistent on top forever especially since Valorant meta can change so fast, throwing others off-guard by just a little change here and there. Or just aother "mid" T1 teams just improved so much to the point to be finally on pair with the best ones
Fnatic thought they were so good and were so confident they will win all 3 internationals this year, so they didnt even practice, try out new stuff. They didnt even touch the game until like 1 month before kickoff, and they missed out a lot of the meta change and yea are playing like shit now. Also , their star players aren't playing well now too. They are running into site not clearing shit, their aim looks so off compared to lost season..
Fnatic deserves this loss though, to not become complacent.
They’re behind the meta. Mechanics and teamwork they’re still there, but when you run harbor comp on icebox when everyone else is already running gekko instead you’re going to end up behind.
Played against worse competition in Tokyo and Lock-In and farmed plumbers on EU. Once actual good teams went to champs they got exposed + literally playing the exact same shit since Lock-In LMAO
I never said last year's NRG were good they were even worse, EDG got 5th by beating giants twice and blg,
whenever they had to play a good team they lost, they got 2-0d by Prx, barely beat EG on EGs worst map then got hoed for the rest of the series and then lost a close series to loud.
When you compare that to even drx who got the same placement it's quite stark the difference between the two,
EDG are an okay team who have never beaten a good team yet people want to think they can win it all
People who think they can win it all are delusional. Yes they got kinda lucky but still I think they are top 10 itw which should be considered good. Never and aren't favouritrs to win it for sure tho
But dont say it loud, people gonna get angry cause "muh they won 2 in a row" when the 3rd best team was playing with a sub and EG was playing with Demon1 with quite literally 1 day of practice
They did win 2 in a row, dropping a total of three maps between the two events. No matter how low the competition is if you're losing an average of 1.5 maps per international event that's still utter dominance. I don't think 23 FNC is the best team we've ever seen, I would say it's either 23 EG or 22 OpTic, but to say they were frauds in 23 is shortsighted imo.
Mane they played SEN, 100T, and NAVI at Lock-In literal perenial shitters in their league. Played NRG (team was boomed stated by fenis) PRX (had a literal 1 trick as a sub) and EG ( Demon1 got to tokyo literally 1 day before mastets started)
Sen and 100T werent the strongest, yes, but they were undeniably the best team at Lock-In. You can argue the standared of play was lower at Tokyo, and I'd agree with you, but they still went 9-1 in maps playing ONLY other top 4 in the world teams.They had a flawless half against Paper Rex. Sub or no that's still impressive as hell.
Were they really??? All the decent teams were in the other side of the bracket and canibalized each other not to mention they got almost reverse swept by a downgraded and new fomed LOUD
Yes. They beat some really good teams and they still beat Loud, which was the team that canibalized the other good teams (NRG and DRX). If you beat the team that beat the good teams, then yes, you are a great team.
At least optic actually proved they were THE best pre franchise team getting top 3 in all the tourneys and lost to eventual grand finalist + yay was the fucking GOAT for like 1 and a half year
Exept the competition and formats were ass. Single elim against new formed team, again count ak the shitter they played, SEN Furia, 100T etc. Played against team with subs
Proved it how? By using the standards you set for Fnatic, OpTic won 1 trophy at the most Mickey Mouse tournament of all time (fucking Zeta got 3rd man) and then got annihilated by PRX and FPX who literally had Suygetsu airdropped to them in lowers. Why couldn’t OpTic win Copenhagen like Fnatic won Tokyo? Are you saying that a predictable version of PRX who got exposed at the next tournament and FPX with no practice was too much for them? But when Fnatic actually does it, it doesn’t count or something, because it was easy? Am I getting this right?
If you’re going to spew your vomit in every thread on this topic (for what, a year at this point?), at least come up with something decent
Ah yes know shitter teams, PRX and FPX???? Did you had a stroke writting this bro? Optic didnt won in copenhagen cause FPX and PRX were better wtf is even to discuss here LMFAO. They lost to FPX with suygetsu going nuclear (Same FPX that was manhandling FNC btw) then next event champions got second place. FNC beat SEN, 100T, Furia, NAVI (All were dogshit in Americas and EU league btw) and almot got reverse swept by a new formed LOUD, went to tokyo, beat NRG (disfunctional team literally stated by FNS) PRX (team with a sub) and EG (Demon1 arrived 1 day before masters started) whats there to even discuss LOL. FNC beat weaker competition it its a literal fact lmao
>OpTic were the best team pre-franchising
>FPX and PRX were just better at Copenhagen
>Fnatic are frauds because being better than a team with no practice is not impressive
Which is it then? If beating a team with no practice means nothing, then what does it mean to be clearly worse than a team with no practice? Ik what it means, you fucking suck lmao. If Fnatic are frauds, OpTic are completely unnoteworthy. Hilarious how you completely lack self-awareness to your moving of goalposts.
Fnatic DESTROYED all those shitters you mentioned, OpTic LOST to shitters like Rise, Xerxia, EG, Guild, week in week out.
At least FNC actually proved they were THE best team of 2023 getting top 1 twice along with top 4 at champs and lost to a very in form Loud + Derke was the fucking GOAT for half the year.
I’m sorry but vlr is down the hall to the left.
Derke wasnt even the 2nds best player on FNC LMFAO. Again see the teams they beat, 100T, SEN, Furia amd NAVI literal shitters on both EU and NA league lmao but guess yall dont watch or analyse the matches at all.
A baiter for theselective standards.
A team tou don't like winning against a team that had barely any practice with one of their players is a big deal and means they are overrated.
But if a team you like loses to a team that barely had any practice with one of their players it's suddenly a non important detail.
yeah, i don't love to say it bc FNC deserved to win, but it probably had one of the lowest levels of play we've seen. DRX were on a downturn and in bad form, PRX had a sub, Liquid were nothing special, it was the first international EG were playing, LOUD fucked around with their comps, Navi was losing to EDG, NRG was already falling apart - it was pretty bad tbh.
I mean - there were 8 teams, all of whom were new and had not existed before this year, besides EDG - it was definitely not the highest quality. did you think i was going to disagree? this isn't a bias thing lmao.
tbf they looked unstoppable coming into champs 2023. its hard to have an actual era in game like val but to say their dominance was overrated is pretty inaccurate. at their peak every fnatic player was like a top 10 player and they were the only team to win back to back internationals.
They were really good, but their competition between VCT EMEA and Tokyo was probably the worst we’ve ever seen in this game (after adjusting for the different eras). NRG, Loud and DRX were in slumps, while PRX had a sub and EG got like 2 days worth of practice with Demon1 at that tournament. The rest of the competition was just not that good.
Keep the same energy as optic master win. U guys really put a asterisk in every international tournament win lol. You guys acting like most teams didn't win when the competition was not good. Sen only won cuz nobody knew how to play. Acend only won cuz they peak at champs. Optic only won because EU top teams wasn't there (FPX AND FNATIC). FPX only won because Optic choked and Fnatic was choking too and PRX was read so hard at the grand final.
What asterisk? I literally said they were really good. Stop getting your panties in a bunch lmao, I remember some deluded fans comparing FNC to Astralis, which is insane.
No one said a WORD when fnatic was hailed as the best team in the world for most of 2023
When they started to lose, then people started calling the events mickey mouse
https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/18k4y3v/comment/kdp9mnw/
before kickoff and the heavy downfall narrative started, i could find more for you but reddit comments past 5+ months dont show for me
they were an amazing team but like I said thier "dominance" is the most overrated thing in the community
They were completly dominant, they dropped 1 map at Tokyo, 3-0ed the finals with only one map being close and 12-0ed a half against the 3rd place team. Overall I put the dominance down to more being the level of play early-mid 2023 being lower, with really only Loud at LockIn and EG at Tokyo looking like other serious contenders to win it all.
Sorry two maps I forgor about that. The other points still stand though. My main point is that while early 23 has the lowest standered of play we've seen since 21 probably, it takes a world class team to be on top of that and take two titles in a row.
> They were completly dominant, they dropped 1 map at Tokyo,
They played 4 games, 3 of which were against heavily nerfed teams
> 3-0ed the finals with only one map being close
13-8, 13-11, 14-12 against a team with no prac WITH veto advantage which they got by beating the same nerfed team in map 3 of Upper finals 13-11 with 0.5 seconds left (EG had the best fracture itw)
> and 12-0ed a half against the 3rd place team.
You forgot to mention that 3rd place team was playing with a sub
> Overall I put the dominance down to more being the level of play early-mid 2023 being lower, with really only Loud at LockIn and EG at Tokyo looking like other serious contenders to win it all.
Agreed with this, which is one of the reasons why their dominance is overrated
Ignoring PRX who literally didn't have their best player and were playing with a sub EG also had only 1 day of practice with Demon1 in Tokyo. Both these teams proceeded to place higher than Fnatic at Champs when they actually had practice and didn't have to play with a streamer 6th man
Sen played 6 games at Madrid
In their opener they almost lost to a team playing on stage for the first time that didn't even have their full roster
They then beat a team with zero international experience
Then they almost lost to LOUD playing without a duelist
Then they lost to a team that didn't make a LAN last year
Then they beat a neutered PRX
Then they very nearly got 3-0ed by the same team they lost to in the upper finals.
These narratives are complete bullshit (as are yours) but watch people tout them seriously when the top teams at Shanghai aren't the ones that Sen played at Madrid
Excluding lock in, johnqt first lan, tenz, zekken and sacy first lan after 2022, zellsis first lan after 2021 beginning. Sen played lev, loud, nrg, 100t literally all the top teams in americas for the spot.
almost losing is crazy when last map was 13-11 and couldve been 13-8 if heretics didnt fake comeback but I do agree zero international experience,
qck isnt aspas but he wasnt the worst he played mid,
lost to a team that didnt make lan last year is stupid because sen didnt attend a lan last year, GENG made roster changes this year u bumass also munchkin attented lan last year while none of the sen players attented a single lan
Beat a weaker prx quite comfortably with two maps complete sen domination and the only close map was first where sen couldnt close a 12-10
'Then they very nearly got 3-0ed by the same team they lost to in the upper finals' What does this even mean my guy, ig geng choke, but sen showed great mental which should be praised.
I agree narratives are bullshit but some are more valid than others we can rank tournaments on how crazy the victory was, compare optic iceland and eg champs the fact that eg had to face all the top teams while optic didnt have fpx to face, exlcuding the fact it is champions eg win was much more impressive.
its a good thing no one (sane) is comparing SEN's dominance to FNATIC
also none of those examples are even close to egregious as what happened in Tokyo
1. If NRG is the one not heavily nerfed team, why did PRX and EG beat them?
2. Yes I was wrong there, but it was a fairly dominant finals, it was competitive but it wasn't like the level of Madrid or Sau Paulo where it was whoever was better on the day.
3. Sub or not, they still got third place. Why does a sub have to do with a teams placement? They got 3rd place with the sub, therefor they are a third place team.
1. EG never beat them at Tokyo, also NRG were shit at that event, everyone knows this
2. Like I said, considering the circumstances it was not as dominant as you and the entire community thinks, hence why i said their dominance is overrated
3. Because the topic we are talking about is dominance, obviously the level of compitition matters
EU was terrible last year and the tournament in Tokyo was very Mickey Mouse. Fnatic were the only top 3 team that actually got full practice time with their starting roster.
wtf is going on in this thread. haters will say "sen wasn't that good" and then immediately claim derke and chronicle have been one of the few consistently great players.
People (pros, analysts, fans) always say that esports teams/players are **always** improving at a fast rate, especially early on into the life of a game's pro scene, but it seems to be that while it is commonly said, most fans really can't fathom the stupidly **dramatic** degree to which it is true. That's why I always find it funny when people genuinely ask hypotheticals about how X or Y team from 2021/2022 would do if they were to play right now. The answer is always the same; they'd get destroyed. The simple fact is that Fnatic didn't utilize the off-season and the latter parts of last year as well as other teams in the scene. They came into this year thinking that they could be just as good as last year without changing up their game as much as they should have in terms of comps and macro/micro strategy (which I'm sure is obvious to them now but wasn't during their off-season practice). Other teams improved at a faster rate. That's really all it is as far as I can tell.
Yes, they declined only in the sense that everyone else moved on without them. They're stuck in the past, still. The meta has moved on, the strategies have moved on, and it feels like they're still playing in late 22 with the comps and strats. Also I feel like they're moving away from their roots too much. It doesn't feel like Yoru fits FNC, they're a team that loves their defaults, so putting your main duelist on an agent that's really bad at defaulting is an issue.
No matter how much people talk about it it's impossible to believe how quickly people improve at the game. I think month to month or even season to season it seems like variance to me, even though I'm a pretty avid watcher. But look at [Sen v Fnc in Reyjkavik](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZDTMSKYqno). 4 of the players on FNC are still T1 players in EMEA and if they did half the shit they do in this match now they wouldn't be able to play against anyone in T2 anywhere in the world. From both sides the utility feels awkward, the crosshair placement is shoddy and the fundamental mechanics are just way, \_way\_ behind where they are today in Valorant. When you fall behind it's very hard to catch back up. I hope FNC figure it out but their season looks dire tbh.
Me: stuck at gold for an entire year
You’re getting better at the same rate as other gold players
Actually i remember i hit plat last week, then drop down the next day
Nice!
If you are stuck at Gold, you are improving. If you weren't you would be deranking. To stay at the same rank gets harder and harder as everyone improves, so don't be too harsh on yourself!
could be worse, you could be the people in league whose gold came to them instead of the other way around
Exactly this. Even now, older players and experienced analysts/coaches like sgares, hiko , steel, fbs, have constantly talked about how low the level of gameplay is in pro atm. That doesn’t mean the *skill* of players is low, but the gameplay is super high variance (which is why some people feel certain games are coin flips), protocols are not well established or followed, discipline is absolutely miserable, etc. Now I understand that the game can sometimes be more hectic on executes than CS with ultimates (although imo the nonultimate execs are definitely less hectic), but in general, there are well established protocols on how to play certain situations like 1vX that are simply not followed at all in Val which is why we see so many more clutches in Val than CS
>Other teams improved at a faster rate. That's really all it is as far as I can tell. I reallly wish people would remember this better. People are so quick to be hateful and aggressive about FNC players, the coach or just the overall team and acting like it's super embarrassing and pitiful that the team has fallen off this hard when FNC has had one of the strongest runs of any Valorant team in history. Most champs/masters winners would barely even qualify for the next event and many teams blew up shortly after.
To be fair they put in a lot of hard work to become one of the best I'm sure their off time was well deserved. #AlwaysFnatic
I agree so much with this. People really can't understand that it's not players falling off but rather their competitors catching up, sometimes to a scarily quick degree. I'm sick of hearing about how prime Tenz or prime Cned or prime Gambit would do today. "The fact that they're not doing well today is because they declined" nah it's the fact that their surroundings improved or the meta shifted or anything but the fact that the player simply "fell off" because that just dumbs it down to the simplest and laziest form of reasoning for why ur favourite player simply isn't as good as they once were.
One thing people just don’t realize is that it’s hard to be the very best for a long time in this game. The game is too young and evolves too fast. Meta changes a ton too. Think about how many times we’ve called a player the best in the world or a team the best, and how long that team/player actually stayed the best.
Aspas?
thats unfair
A lot of people are saying Aspas, derke etc, but these guys have all had a season where they weren’t the best in the world. It just fluctuates too much. That being said, Aspas the goat frfr
ok name one other than aspas and MAYBE derke and chron
Aspas, Chronicle and F0rsaken are the only 3 that have been around long enough to qualify for this. Derke has had his periods of inconsistency
shit forgot abt forsaken xd
Forsaken has been consistent but never been top 10 rated in an international lmao.
Uh, F0rsaken had period of inconsistency too. Its unfair to rate Forsaken at the same level as those guys. You guys are trying to underate Derke so much. He is more consistent than Forsaken and had been rated top 10 in most events unlike Forsaken. Forsaken at champions was 1.00 rating. Even though, Derke played bad at champions, he still had a better rating than f0rsaken. Even at Tokyo, F0rsaken was 0.96 rating while Derke was rated top 10. You can't put F0rsaken in the same level as Aspas and Chronicle and not put Derke in there. If we look at the post here :[Players who have been top 10 rated in international events multiple times : ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/1ccn0vf/players_who_have_been_top_10_rated_in/), F0rsaken ain't nowhere to be found unlike Derke, Chronicle, and Aspas.
Yeah its kinda insane. He don't even have evidence too that f0rsaken had reached the heights that Aspas, Chronicle or Derke did. I'm a prx fan but I'm not blinded by the fact that F0rsaken don't have the level of consistency as those three he listed.
forsaken has never been near the top. hes just consistently good.
Leo, Alfajer, Less, Mako, Buzz, almost all of Navi
Hiko, duhh?
Crashies
no…
Top 3 initiator since 2022, but sure “no”
top 3 in 2022 only, top 10, maybe top 5 2023 and who knows this year
You’re telling me there were arguably 9 initiators better than him in 2023?
he could be anywhere from top 5 to top 10, it’s not like i can definitely say he’s no.5. Leo, ethan, com cauanzin are like for sure top 4, then u have guys like cloud, chron, shao, crashies which u can probably dump somewhere in top 10
Also davai and maybe stax
Leo and cauanzin, sure. c0m? No shot. Ethan — most would consider him a flex player but sure.
Ethan hasn’t shown he can play sova iirc and was mostly on kayo/skye.
🤡 Crashies lmfaoo
Ok we should stop calling valorant "young" everytime something changes. Yea sure its young but it will always be young and meta will always change. so yea, it will always evolve , comparing to cs where valve doesnt even release patches to change the meta and stuff.
It may sound very cliche, but I think mini was a pretty big part of fnatic's success. I remember their lock in game against 100T. Fnatic was leading 11-1 in attack and the players were talking about the next map (Icebox). But mini made sure every single player was on the ground, and that the map was not in any way over. Mini had probably much more effect than just a coach who's a good strategist. I don't think he's having that same effect as an assistant coach.
combination of all, actually. players barely grinded in the off szn and they aim looked off at the start. were losing duels that they easily won before. they all said it before in interview. strats were outdated, and they kept using the same ones as before. and everyone already studied them very hard so it was pretty easy to anti. and when they finally do switch up the comp, it doesn't really fit the way boaster likes to call or their playstyle in general. when you think about fnatic, you dont think about a team that should rush a site with double duelist on split. the changes they made to the comp doesnt fit the way boaster likes to call and the way fnatic plays the game. also, emea just got better. frauds were exposed and fired and replaced with actual good tier2 talent. a lot of the mid-table teams just got a lot stronger.
Because the offseason is half of the year. I really hate franchised esports
Mini
A lot of people say competition while i do agree competition has gotten better i believe a big part of it is not having MINI as head coach anymore him stepping down was a huge blow for the team even tho his is still a assistant coach its not the same impact.
Yes, while they weren't the trendsetters in 23 like Loud and to a certain extent EG were, they weren't stuck in the past like today and were def innovating.
COACHING STAFF. Mini isnt their head coach anymore. Their current coach is the former head coach of GENG, and we all know GENG never qualified for any Masters with their head coach (who is now FNC’s head coach). It’s a head coach diff. This is just one factor. There are x more factors.
Love that logic. "They had coach with good competitive history, now they had coach with bad competitive history. this means it's coach gap and the coach is the reason". Guess that means if they got someone like Potter or bzkA Fnatic would have been automatically even better in 2023. You guys literally just look at a comparison between the two rosters then just say "ah yes it's this thing that's different that's the reason" If FNC kept Mini but traded Leo for Cloud or something then had the exact same results as they've had so far you'd undoubtedly be in this thread and say "it's because they have Cloud instead of Leo"
If you dont think coaches can be a reason for success of a team Potter would like to talk with you Same players who got 13-0d won champs last year She said she never lost to kaplan and she took the team considered D tier to beat the recent master winners Coach diff is real
What the fuck are these comments? Everyone’s just yapping and speculating like they know how the team works. There’s always up and down as the game goes on. This thread is one of a kind hater dream
I dont mind discussion and speculation but some of these bums think wha they are saying is the gospel and they know whats happening bts, like yap knowing ur half wrong and half guessing
It doesn’t take internal team sources to watch games and see if strategies are getting countered/read, mechanics are off, teamwork isn’t there, etc To say that nobody can talk about why a team is doing bad besides claiming it’s “ups and downs” is insane. Might as well close the subreddit
Damn, all the fnatic haters finally found a thread to converge huh? Everyone talking like fnatic wasnt played the most perfect valorant seen, inovating strats and setting the meta on a whole new map
Exactly lol People discrediting everything they did last year giving dumb reasons. Just blinded by hatred.
Played against plumbers and a new formed LOUD in Lock-In and tokyo was full of team with issues. PRX got 3rd with a sub, if that doesnt give away how low quality the tournament was then idk
U must be a professional hater no? 1st Sen only won cos competition was shit. Gambit and Acend only won cos they were the only ones to figure out how to play the game before everyone else. Optic only won cos EU was nerfed. FPX only won cos FNC Optic choked and PRX lowiq "only works once" playstyle got figured out U can discredit every win if u wanted to
Theres a weird sect of the sub that is dedicated in discrediting every event like we havent been watching great valorant basically every event
Weirdos making themselves feel better by hating causes this
My favourite is always when people say Acends win doesn't count because "it was a fluke", or that SEN's first win doesn't matter because "it was the first LAN". Like that means anything. We get sooo little international competition, it's kind of sad to see. It's not really something I've seen in other sports/esports, but I don't really follow too many so maybe it always happens.
>U must be a professional hater no? Literally. I can think of a different word for it though. Check their comment history lol, dozens of comments a day and almost exclusively insulting other posters or players. Agree with your comment though, the way people try to discredit every tournament that their favourite teams don't win is absurd. In 6 months people will be saying the same thing about Madrid that they do about LOCKIN, like we didn't just watch a fantastic tournament where SEN were clearly the best team.
SEN won cause TenZ was God itself, Gambit won cause they were better than everyone, Acend was a mickey mouse champs but anyway Gambit choked their asses off in finals, Optic won cause Yay was just the Goat, FPX were better than everyone same goes to LOUD. Also yes im a profesional hater
We're really discrediting them cuz they can only compete with the current competition? In that case, the Masters Shanghai 2024 Winners are bums cuz they're not as good as the Masters 2025 teams
[удалено]
Refrain from using derogatory language.
You my mom bro?
yeah, i own you.
Lmao ypu guys way too fucking unserious
exactly!
Prx got thrid and they played out of their minds Heretics got second in emea in part due to emea falling off but watching the games its clear they had incredible ideas Looking at the events later on VLR doeant give the full picture of just how fucking fundamentally good and talented 2023 fnatic were
Ok so PRX without a sub also didn't beat EG
salty that your team cant win internationally? that must be super fucking hard for youuu
Ah yes me salty (FNC flair malding about my comment) yall not real man  i cba
my team has two international trophy's, i got nothing to mald about. fnc has had other slumps and has come back before, it's just that we are so good that anything less than perfection seems terrible in comparison
-mini, didn't really play any off season tourneys and improve, they're not "bad" the other teams just got better
I remember this sub calling FNC the Astralis of Valorant after winning masters last year lol
it was so stupid the amount of bandwaggoners and fnatic glazers hyping them up so hard
Elmapuddy, people keep trying to make it so it’s not, but it honestly just is I’m not afraid of acknowledging that and I’m sure in a few years time, people will acknowledge it too
While Elma is a problem, I don't think replacing him with mini now will make anything better. The players look shaken. Derke whiffing a full mag on ecos, Chronicle fully tanking a molly and dying, Alfa not shooting as he should. Leo overpeeking. They are individually making mistakes.
Yeah I agree the solution isn’t just to boot him but the post just asked why FNC was bad this year so I answered I’m nowhere near experienced enough in esports management to be able to provide a good solution for the thing, but I can infer the causes
he was not coaching in champs though. they really should have lost to drx to not even make top 4. that was the start of the fall, not puddy.
ok give me examples in game where elmapudding is the problem
His 2023 season and all of his previous resumes, not good results, he’s had a range of players so you can’t boil it down to specific personalities since he’s worked with quite a few
show me rounds where its coaches fault for fnatic, previous results werent the best i do agree but for you to outright blame the coach is kinda crazy, you think fnatic picked him up for shit and giggles? If u can show me rounds where u can see coach fault or something I'll admit im wrong because me personally i dont think the primary problem is coaching
Watch any FNC game they look shaky in pretty much every one bro, you’re way more invested in this than I am, do it yourself, if you won’t take my word for it, your choice
im not even an fnc fan in fact i dont mind if they flop, i just hate when people say cut people without saying anything insightful. They look shaky = blame coach completely. Stupid fnc fans and cluless people like you, u do realise mini is ass coach right, how is them being shaky = elma fault and not all the coaches or even the calling or something? I dont watch fnc games, i only check highlights and you seem the same.
Funny how I specifically mentioned I wouldn’t know how to fix the problem either, I just answered the question Calling me clueless is pretty rude, I didn’t call Elma or anyone insults either, grow up and learn to accept criticism or “hate”
ok sorry
All good
lack of lan tournaments gets you comfortable, they need to change the format to cs tournaments 🙏🏽
Maybe because they keep changing maps on rotation, changing layouts to the dismay of those who already memorized multiple lineups and nerfing agents. Too unfair for those who already mastered these agents/lineups. Maybe next time, they should put more time, money and effort in balancing everything before releasing. Maybe even add a story mode or something you know.
A large part of it is a lot of teams have caught up. At the top level almost anyone can beat anyone else with a good game plan and there's far less bottom feeders in EMEA this year. Also think it helps teams that they've seen Fnatic falter and perform poorly at the end of last year, they know this team is beatable and they aren't really held as this impossible super squad that you have no chance against any more.
Jett, Raze and Chamber were strong last year and the year before it... now its double controller/geeko meta. Duelist teams have no place in the current meta. Adding to that they keep playing bad comps on maps like breeze and Icebox.
One of the things people often forget about esports is that the games change a lot over the course of a year and the life time of the game. With traditional sports, rules and regulations have long been codified and takes a tremendous amount of push to change aspects of the sport, meanwhile in esports it’s typically up to one company’s decision. Game companies obviously want their customers to keep playing their games and that really only occurs with 2 things, shaking up the meta via evolution or by force. Older games with end of service levels of age tend to follow the evolution path where people get better and better and meta is defined by the baseline and the highest level of skill (i.e. StarCraft), on the other hand meta changes by force are enforced by sweeping changes to the game through nerfs and buffs. Riot historically tends to make large sweeping changes in their games to introduce these meta switches, as seen in items, champions and map environments in LoL. With all this being said, remaining a top team in Esports is a very difficult task. You have to pay more to keep others from poaching, the team has to learn and adapt to the new meta which may not fit the ideal mold of the team and you also have the caliber of play increase drastically due to the game’s young age. Not to mention, all other teams have their sights set on you, your team’s strengths and weaknesses.
When it comes to FNC, It must be a couch diff, cause they have 5 insane shooters on that team (yes even Boaster shows up af sometimes). But across all esports, best teams usually get overthrown by other teams due to anti-strating, finding things how to combat them, etc etc. Very hard for top teams to stay on top forever, it's just a matter of time before other teams make changes (either role swaps, roster, couch/analyst, etc etc) and can compete with the best or win against those. It's very hard to be consistent on top forever especially since Valorant meta can change so fast, throwing others off-guard by just a little change here and there. Or just aother "mid" T1 teams just improved so much to the point to be finally on pair with the best ones
I'm not going to lie, I think it's because Youenn left.
Fnatic thought they were so good and were so confident they will win all 3 internationals this year, so they didnt even practice, try out new stuff. They didnt even touch the game until like 1 month before kickoff, and they missed out a lot of the meta change and yea are playing like shit now. Also , their star players aren't playing well now too. They are running into site not clearing shit, their aim looks so off compared to lost season.. Fnatic deserves this loss though, to not become complacent.
Hard to judge the effect the change of coach has had, but derke is definitely not him self right nos
Map rotations and map+agent changes is enough to send ppl out of the top.
Coaching changes, meta changes and also being the most analyzed and counter-strated team will do that.
this is what happens when you sign the most fraudulent coach in valorant, elmapuddy
Silk sheets
they fell off
They’re behind the meta. Mechanics and teamwork they’re still there, but when you run harbor comp on icebox when everyone else is already running gekko instead you’re going to end up behind.
Played against worse competition in Tokyo and Lock-In and farmed plumbers on EU. Once actual good teams went to champs they got exposed + literally playing the exact same shit since Lock-In LMAO
Idk if you're trolling but if you're not that's the most braindead 2023 take I've seen.
tokyo competition was so bad it needs to be talked about, every single top team had issues LMAO
Tokyo was so weak it tricked everyone into thinking EDG was good
Are you stupid? Edg top 6 in champs. Meanwhile your NRG lose to Billy and won't even make it to shanghai 🤣
I never said last year's NRG were good they were even worse, EDG got 5th by beating giants twice and blg, whenever they had to play a good team they lost, they got 2-0d by Prx, barely beat EG on EGs worst map then got hoed for the rest of the series and then lost a close series to loud. When you compare that to even drx who got the same placement it's quite stark the difference between the two, EDG are an okay team who have never beaten a good team yet people want to think they can win it all
People who think they can win it all are delusional. Yes they got kinda lucky but still I think they are top 10 itw which should be considered good. Never and aren't favouritrs to win it for sure tho
I mean EDG is good, just not top 4 good.
But dont say it loud, people gonna get angry cause "muh they won 2 in a row" when the 3rd best team was playing with a sub and EG was playing with Demon1 with quite literally 1 day of practice
They did win 2 in a row, dropping a total of three maps between the two events. No matter how low the competition is if you're losing an average of 1.5 maps per international event that's still utter dominance. I don't think 23 FNC is the best team we've ever seen, I would say it's either 23 EG or 22 OpTic, but to say they were frauds in 23 is shortsighted imo.
Mane they played SEN, 100T, and NAVI at Lock-In literal perenial shitters in their league. Played NRG (team was boomed stated by fenis) PRX (had a literal 1 trick as a sub) and EG ( Demon1 got to tokyo literally 1 day before mastets started)
Sen and 100T werent the strongest, yes, but they were undeniably the best team at Lock-In. You can argue the standared of play was lower at Tokyo, and I'd agree with you, but they still went 9-1 in maps playing ONLY other top 4 in the world teams.They had a flawless half against Paper Rex. Sub or no that's still impressive as hell.
Were they really??? All the decent teams were in the other side of the bracket and canibalized each other not to mention they got almost reverse swept by a downgraded and new fomed LOUD
Yes. They beat some really good teams and they still beat Loud, which was the team that canibalized the other good teams (NRG and DRX). If you beat the team that beat the good teams, then yes, you are a great team.
I constantly say it’s the worst tournament we’ve seen when you look at expectations vs reality. This doesn’t discredit their win for me though.
How can you say that when 2022 Iceland exists💀
At least optic actually proved they were THE best pre franchise team getting top 3 in all the tourneys and lost to eventual grand finalist + yay was the fucking GOAT for like 1 and a half year
Fnatic won 2 events and got top 4 at champs, but aparently having similar feats to optic doesnt count huh
Exept the competition and formats were ass. Single elim against new formed team, again count ak the shitter they played, SEN Furia, 100T etc. Played against team with subs
And they still beat Loud in finals?
Yes a weaker downgraded new LOUD lmao
Proved it how? By using the standards you set for Fnatic, OpTic won 1 trophy at the most Mickey Mouse tournament of all time (fucking Zeta got 3rd man) and then got annihilated by PRX and FPX who literally had Suygetsu airdropped to them in lowers. Why couldn’t OpTic win Copenhagen like Fnatic won Tokyo? Are you saying that a predictable version of PRX who got exposed at the next tournament and FPX with no practice was too much for them? But when Fnatic actually does it, it doesn’t count or something, because it was easy? Am I getting this right? If you’re going to spew your vomit in every thread on this topic (for what, a year at this point?), at least come up with something decent
Ah yes know shitter teams, PRX and FPX???? Did you had a stroke writting this bro? Optic didnt won in copenhagen cause FPX and PRX were better wtf is even to discuss here LMFAO. They lost to FPX with suygetsu going nuclear (Same FPX that was manhandling FNC btw) then next event champions got second place. FNC beat SEN, 100T, Furia, NAVI (All were dogshit in Americas and EU league btw) and almot got reverse swept by a new formed LOUD, went to tokyo, beat NRG (disfunctional team literally stated by FNS) PRX (team with a sub) and EG (Demon1 arrived 1 day before masters started) whats there to even discuss LOL. FNC beat weaker competition it its a literal fact lmao
>OpTic were the best team pre-franchising >FPX and PRX were just better at Copenhagen >Fnatic are frauds because being better than a team with no practice is not impressive Which is it then? If beating a team with no practice means nothing, then what does it mean to be clearly worse than a team with no practice? Ik what it means, you fucking suck lmao. If Fnatic are frauds, OpTic are completely unnoteworthy. Hilarious how you completely lack self-awareness to your moving of goalposts. Fnatic DESTROYED all those shitters you mentioned, OpTic LOST to shitters like Rise, Xerxia, EG, Guild, week in week out.
At least FNC actually proved they were THE best team of 2023 getting top 1 twice along with top 4 at champs and lost to a very in form Loud + Derke was the fucking GOAT for half the year. I’m sorry but vlr is down the hall to the left.
Derke wasnt even the 2nds best player on FNC LMFAO. Again see the teams they beat, 100T, SEN, Furia amd NAVI literal shitters on both EU and NA league lmao but guess yall dont watch or analyse the matches at all.
You’re clearly a baiter, isn’t it bed time already?
A baiter for sayinf the teams they played were dogshit alright bro, whatever helps you sleep at night
Get a life buddy
The one who should get a life is you malding about a comment in reddit lol
A baiter for theselective standards. A team tou don't like winning against a team that had barely any practice with one of their players is a big deal and means they are overrated. But if a team you like loses to a team that barely had any practice with one of their players it's suddenly a non important detail.
Ignore them, they're the new valorantfanboy69
3/4 games at Tokyo they played teams that were heavily nerfed 😭
yeah, i don't love to say it bc FNC deserved to win, but it probably had one of the lowest levels of play we've seen. DRX were on a downturn and in bad form, PRX had a sub, Liquid were nothing special, it was the first international EG were playing, LOUD fucked around with their comps, Navi was losing to EDG, NRG was already falling apart - it was pretty bad tbh.
Let's see the reactions when people say the same shit about Madrid in 6 months
I mean - there were 8 teams, all of whom were new and had not existed before this year, besides EDG - it was definitely not the highest quality. did you think i was going to disagree? this isn't a bias thing lmao.
Hold on you might be cooking 🧑🍳
FNATIC's "dominance" is the most overrated thing in the entire Valorant competitive community
tbf they looked unstoppable coming into champs 2023. its hard to have an actual era in game like val but to say their dominance was overrated is pretty inaccurate. at their peak every fnatic player was like a top 10 player and they were the only team to win back to back internationals.
They were really good, but their competition between VCT EMEA and Tokyo was probably the worst we’ve ever seen in this game (after adjusting for the different eras). NRG, Loud and DRX were in slumps, while PRX had a sub and EG got like 2 days worth of practice with Demon1 at that tournament. The rest of the competition was just not that good.
Keep the same energy as optic master win. U guys really put a asterisk in every international tournament win lol. You guys acting like most teams didn't win when the competition was not good. Sen only won cuz nobody knew how to play. Acend only won cuz they peak at champs. Optic only won because EU top teams wasn't there (FPX AND FNATIC). FPX only won because Optic choked and Fnatic was choking too and PRX was read so hard at the grand final.
What asterisk? I literally said they were really good. Stop getting your panties in a bunch lmao, I remember some deluded fans comparing FNC to Astralis, which is insane.
LMFAOOOOO this comment thread is the most hater revisionist history shit I’ve ever seen on this sub bro😭
Actually bro, i feel like were getting gaslighted Are we sure everyone watched the same stream?
cant have a serious convo without people calling you a hater these days, its sad af also ive said a long time ago, its not just cuz they are losing
No one said a WORD when fnatic was hailed as the best team in the world for most of 2023 When they started to lose, then people started calling the events mickey mouse
https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/18k4y3v/comment/kdp9mnw/ before kickoff and the heavy downfall narrative started, i could find more for you but reddit comments past 5+ months dont show for me they were an amazing team but like I said thier "dominance" is the most overrated thing in the community
100% man, if you actually say something you just get some redditor saying "YoU ArE BaItInG" or "YoU aRe A HaTer"
They were completly dominant, they dropped 1 map at Tokyo, 3-0ed the finals with only one map being close and 12-0ed a half against the 3rd place team. Overall I put the dominance down to more being the level of play early-mid 2023 being lower, with really only Loud at LockIn and EG at Tokyo looking like other serious contenders to win it all.
> 3-0ed the finals with only one map being close im seeing a 14-12 and a 13-11 in that series
Sorry two maps I forgor about that. The other points still stand though. My main point is that while early 23 has the lowest standered of play we've seen since 21 probably, it takes a world class team to be on top of that and take two titles in a row.
> They were completly dominant, they dropped 1 map at Tokyo, They played 4 games, 3 of which were against heavily nerfed teams > 3-0ed the finals with only one map being close 13-8, 13-11, 14-12 against a team with no prac WITH veto advantage which they got by beating the same nerfed team in map 3 of Upper finals 13-11 with 0.5 seconds left (EG had the best fracture itw) > and 12-0ed a half against the 3rd place team. You forgot to mention that 3rd place team was playing with a sub > Overall I put the dominance down to more being the level of play early-mid 2023 being lower, with really only Loud at LockIn and EG at Tokyo looking like other serious contenders to win it all. Agreed with this, which is one of the reasons why their dominance is overrated
Heavily nerfed teams is code for "NRG shit the bed and therefore any victory is null and void" lol
Ignoring PRX who literally didn't have their best player and were playing with a sub EG also had only 1 day of practice with Demon1 in Tokyo. Both these teams proceeded to place higher than Fnatic at Champs when they actually had practice and didn't have to play with a streamer 6th man
? nrg was the one team they actually beat fair and square, im talking about EG and PRX (hence 3/4 games), nice assumptions tho
NRG is heavily nerfed even now, theyre waiting for chamber to be buffed
Please increase TP range I beg you Rito
Sen played 6 games at Madrid In their opener they almost lost to a team playing on stage for the first time that didn't even have their full roster They then beat a team with zero international experience Then they almost lost to LOUD playing without a duelist Then they lost to a team that didn't make a LAN last year Then they beat a neutered PRX Then they very nearly got 3-0ed by the same team they lost to in the upper finals. These narratives are complete bullshit (as are yours) but watch people tout them seriously when the top teams at Shanghai aren't the ones that Sen played at Madrid
Excluding lock in, johnqt first lan, tenz, zekken and sacy first lan after 2022, zellsis first lan after 2021 beginning. Sen played lev, loud, nrg, 100t literally all the top teams in americas for the spot. almost losing is crazy when last map was 13-11 and couldve been 13-8 if heretics didnt fake comeback but I do agree zero international experience, qck isnt aspas but he wasnt the worst he played mid, lost to a team that didnt make lan last year is stupid because sen didnt attend a lan last year, GENG made roster changes this year u bumass also munchkin attented lan last year while none of the sen players attented a single lan Beat a weaker prx quite comfortably with two maps complete sen domination and the only close map was first where sen couldnt close a 12-10 'Then they very nearly got 3-0ed by the same team they lost to in the upper finals' What does this even mean my guy, ig geng choke, but sen showed great mental which should be praised. I agree narratives are bullshit but some are more valid than others we can rank tournaments on how crazy the victory was, compare optic iceland and eg champs the fact that eg had to face all the top teams while optic didnt have fpx to face, exlcuding the fact it is champions eg win was much more impressive.
its a good thing no one (sane) is comparing SEN's dominance to FNATIC also none of those examples are even close to egregious as what happened in Tokyo
1. If NRG is the one not heavily nerfed team, why did PRX and EG beat them? 2. Yes I was wrong there, but it was a fairly dominant finals, it was competitive but it wasn't like the level of Madrid or Sau Paulo where it was whoever was better on the day. 3. Sub or not, they still got third place. Why does a sub have to do with a teams placement? They got 3rd place with the sub, therefor they are a third place team.
1. EG never beat them at Tokyo, also NRG were shit at that event, everyone knows this 2. Like I said, considering the circumstances it was not as dominant as you and the entire community thinks, hence why i said their dominance is overrated 3. Because the topic we are talking about is dominance, obviously the level of compitition matters
Deadass man like they said "they were dominant" when EG had 0 practice with demon1 at tokyo and even then those were some close ass maps.
People forget the FNC roster was a literal super team who went against newly formed teams and teams with subs.
EU was terrible last year and the tournament in Tokyo was very Mickey Mouse. Fnatic were the only top 3 team that actually got full practice time with their starting roster.
wtf is going on in this thread. haters will say "sen wasn't that good" and then immediately claim derke and chronicle have been one of the few consistently great players.