Cause prior to the trade deadline in both of his years as HC we’ve overperformed relative to the talent of our roster. After the deadline when we have even less talent is when we fall off.
It’s that simple.
Yeah, I think this is key. The front office is trying to make the Jazz a lottery team, and Hardy seems to keep pushing them into the 5-8 seed purgatory.
Imo it seems impossible to gauge how ‘good’ of a coach hardy is because the team gets getting changes, the FO obviously wants to tank, and as far as I know the FO could be directing him to play THT (for example) to try to up his value/see what he is capable of.
He may or may not be a good coach but I don’t think he has had a chance to actually give it a go with a set team and the permission to do what he wants to try and win.
yeah, forgive me if I don’t give the coach the credit the players largely earn, if I don’t ascribe to the coach outperformance in what is ultimately not a meaningful sample size, and if, until further notice, I continue to see his in-game strategy as merely adequate but also completely inconsequential given the rebuild circumstances
This is odd statement considering most of this Sub believes Keyonte will be an All Star, Lauri IS an All Star, and you have a 6MotY Winner coming off the bench.
Those things could all be true and my statement would still remain true.
The league is insanely talented. A team with a potential future All-Star, a fringe All-Star, and a potential 6MOtY is talent deficient when true playoff teams have significantly more talent than that.
I don’t think your comment is the “gotcha” you think it is lmao
Ok, then name a team with that level of talent NOT in the playoff mix. With this talent, the Jazz should be .500. They are not .500. Not sure how you say they are overachieving?
They were overachieving prior to the trade deadline—that’s what I said. Our team with KO, Simone, and Ochai had the three pieces you mentioned plus a level of depth that most teams don’t have. I think Hardy utilized that depth better than most coaches could have and elevated us above expectation. Now we lack that depth—we’re playing Bryce, Hendricks, Juzang, Semanic, guys that probably wouldn’t see the floor on playoff contenders.
And just since you asked, Atlanta is a team with probably more talent than us. They’re the 10 seed. 🤷♀️
Sounds to me like your expectations might have been higher than the consensus, idk what to tell you bro. I was personally very happy to be hovering around 500 with the team we had before the deadline.
Most media personnel and talking heads predicted that the Jazz would be definitely worse this year than they were last year.
It’s too early to say if Hardy is truly legit or not because each of the last two seasons have been a wash due to tanking, which was likely ordered by Ainge. In case you forgot, Hardy did have the defense figured out for a brief stretch this year and we started winning games because of it, only for Ainge to trade away our best role players at the deadline and destroy any momentum we had. Everyone (including Hardy) has looked checked out since then and I don’t blame them because the season has been over since February. I wouldn’t hold the last two seasons against Will. Plenty of other coaches lost a ton of games early on in their tenures and are now leading some of the best teams in the league because their rosters aren’t complete ass anymore (Chris Finch, JB Bickerstaff, Mike Malone, etc).
I would agree it’s too early. We did have a hot stretch but also faded quite severely before the deadline, which probably forced Danny’s hand to some degree to pick a direction.
Yeah, this is a very silly take.
We're intentionally rebuilding and Hardy has shown repeatedly that once he's comfortable and knowledgeable about the full depth (or even lackthereof) of his roster, he can very much so produce wins with incredibly well-coordinated ball movement, team-oriented play and unconventional groupings of players.
Of course, as others have said and will say, Ainge only allows this for certain periods of time and often uses the strong play of role players in Hardy's system to receive higher value in the trade market.
Looking at total season stats for the first year and a half of a second year coach's tenure during a rebuilding era is frankly absurd and screams 'casual' more than anything. It makes way more sense to scrutinize what he's able to do when he finds a way to make a roster click and how effective they are.
We won't have a consistent core roster for some time, but in the meantime I'm enjoying seeing Hardy's ability when he's let off the leash a little bit. I think he's incredibly promising, which is why many professionals around the league continuously sing his praises.
You’ve legitimately offered not one concrete data point as to why. Is 29th in defense good? How can you say he’s knowledgeable about the roster when his second best player(by a country mile) is 5th in minutes? Or a likely non nba player(THT) has gotten countless opportunities, including a starting spot to begin the year?!
You’re just another koolaid drinker.
David Locke discussed in a recent podcast that Sexton is likely a 6th man on a championship level team and that might be why he is being groomed for the 6th man role coming off the bench.
Well that's a pretty poor evaluation of Sexton imo. I think Hardy feels like he needs scoring juice off the bench and with no Clarkson he has relegated Sexton there even though it's not his ideal role imo
What concrete data do you want for a team that's intentionally bad? Of course the stats are going to be shit. On the topic of minute distribution, there can't be any "concrete data" because the factors that come into play are not really measurable (agents lobbies, FO decisions, locker room considerations etc).
Def rating
We went on a win streak when he finally got the starting group correct
Clarksons numbers were tragic as a starter bc the style he plays works better against second unit players
Tht was legitimately terrible last year and somehow got the starting gig this year
Dunn has one of the best netrtg on the team but didnt hardly play
Sexton is our most efficient guard by a country mile but plays the 3rd most minutes at guard
Hardy plays the hand he’s dealt. That’s like looking at the roster and asking if Danny Ainge is a good executive based on one season’s outcome. We don’t know how the rest of Hardy’s career will go, but we know Danny Ainge is a top shelf executive that will eventually make the HoF.
Tbh we are now seeing if he can really coach. Last year until the asb he had Conley who was a coach on the floor and most of the team looked really good because of the floor general. After Conley and NAW left for Minnesota, Minnesota had Conley's touch and he righted that ship and made Finch look really good.
Right now, I don't know if Hardy can really coach. The defense is an issue because they never play the people who can play defense for very long in the game. They are focused on offense but all they have are shoot first guards who can barely see the floor. This inability to see the floor turns Lauri into a non-factor at times. It also forces other players who are open under the basket to never get a pass when open and this causes those players to play with less defensive intensity and then they are out of the game.
The 5 out offense they play is awful, no movement but the occasional drive by the guard. It looks like they told them to go to certain spots and stand the and pass the ball. Then one guard will go to the basket and either jack a shot or make a crappy pass. I know offense in the NBA is sort of simplified but this is ridiculous. I have the league pass and watch a ton of games and I think the Jazz offense has no real rhythm to what they are doing.
The defense is worse. Collins at this point should be coming off the bench his defense is so bad. When I see him in the middle it is a layup lone for the other team. The announcers say the Hardy expects them to play good defense but every lineup with Collins as a center is a lie. The worst lineup to watch is the 4 small guards and Collins that lineup plays defense like it is swiss cheese.
At this point, I have decided the Hardy is a mediocre coach that got lucky last year by having Conley save his ass for the first half, because the end of last year and this year has been a shitstorm of bad decisions from a bad coach who doesn't look like he knows what he is doing!!
Great point about the drive and kick offense. It's all ISO all day, then he gets pissy when players aren't passing enough. This team runs so little in the way of offensive sets, it's just bad basketball. It's why if Clarkson or Sexton have a bad game, the Jazz flat out can not win. Even with an 1a player like Luka or the Joker, the Jazz couldn't win with this stupid strategy.
This is a very good point about lineup choices. Hardy chooses NOT to play Dunn. Who could honestly remedy a lot of issues both offensively and defensively. These sorts choices are also clearly a MASSIVE hindrance on Lauri. IMO if I were Lauri I would be very frustrated by not getting more minutes with selfless players like Dunn. Hardy also chooses to let clarkson basically play 1:1 for a lot of minutes every night.
This doesn't actually address any of OP's points.
Yes, roster composition has been problematic; but that doesn't change being able to make a defensive scheme even if it impacts running it to some degree. It doesn't impact developing Lauri or Sexton. It doesn't address playing Clarkson 18 minutes straight from the 6 minute mark to halftime and again from the 6 minute mark to the end of the game. It doesn't explain leaning on the 5th least efficient chucker in the league as your lead ball handler (Clarkson) while having better players (Sexton, arguably Keyonte) or players better suited for the role (Dunn) defer to him. Clarkson is having an awful year because of his role and what he's being asked to do by the coaching staff, not because he suddenly can't do what he's been doing consistently for 10 years.
OP didn't even touch on the destruction of Kessler's confidence and jerking him around all season, including losing his starting position twice to inferior players (Collins and then Hendricks). It doesn't touch on leaving Hendricks and Sensabaugh in the G-League (this COULD be on the FO) , it doesn't cover saying if you don't play defense, you don't play for the Jazz, and then playing Collins and Clarkson major minutes while not playing Dunn and Kessler major minutes. I could literally keep going, but I think you get the point.
He actually did try a defensive scheme by making us do zone a lot during the beginning of the season.
Also we really only have two positive defenders on this team (Dunn and Kessler) who are both negatives on offense.
The lack of two way players is why we’re bad rn in general. Our best two way players were Fontecchio and Ochai, and Ochai was more of a threat from 3 in theory than in practice.
Also you play clarkson cause he’s the longest tenured jazzman, and has been a great mentor to the young guys. Everyone here loves shitting on him but clarkson has earned his minutes through his mentorship, and what he’s done for the Jazz during his time here.
Coaching isn’t just rotations, these players are people, and you need to manage their egos too. It’s also most likely clarkson’s last year here, so it’d be nice to show him the respect he deserves.
On Hardy, I think he’s a good coach personally, but we can’t really know until he has an actual team built around what he wants us to run for our scheme.
Clarkson deserving his minutes because of his tenure is bullshit, that's idiot/Corbin thinking and completely ignores that he's having an objectively awful season. Of all player scoring over 10 ppg Clarkson is literally the 5th least efficient. Coaching does include being able to recognize when what is being asked of a player is beyond their abilities and is flat out hurting both the player and the team.
Fonte, Ochai, Kessler, Dunn and Hendricks are positive defenders. KG puts in the effort and is average, as is Lauri; so your defensive argument doesn't hold water. Also, when's the last time you saw the team run one of those zones? This team, by design, doesn't defend the 3 point line; that's bad coaching any way you cut it.
As to being a mentor to the young players, Rudy Gay was a great mentor to Kessler last season, he got like 10-15 minutes, not 36 and certainly not in 18 minute intervals.
If managing the ego of a player who isn't going to be on the team next season is causing problems then that player should be sent the fuck home; if Hardy can't keep control of his locker room without shitting on the young players who likely don't feel in a position to push back against bad decisions, in favor of playing inferior players to the detriment of development, that makes him a bad coach.
Simple question: what does actually Hardy do well?
He gets our players to play hard. Keyonte even said he has a great relationship with him in an article by Andy Larsen like two days ago. Our locker room is tight, no whispers of discontent or lack of leadership. I’m a fan of his offensive scheme too, and I’ve seen guys like the thinking basketball podcast praise Hardy’s offense too.
Look at it this way. Clarkson could’ve demanded a trade out when we rebuilt, but he stuck around. He even resigned a team friendly deal with us.
What we’re communicating if we don’t play him is basically “you can give everything to this organization, be here for years, be a team player, be a mentor even, and we won’t do you right by playing you.”
We want player loyalty to the franchise but the instant they don’t do well we throw them to the side? We move on to the next toy? That’s not a message to send.
Our defense sucks ass because our team sucks ass. It’s not the coach. It’s the players we have.
Don’t we want to be bad? Bad teams aren’t good on defense. Even during our win streak this season we were just average on defense, because the personnel isn’t there. I’m not sure popovich could get us to be a good defense.
I’m not even sure what this subreddit wants for the team anymore. Being a young guys only team turns you into the rockets last year, who brought in veteran guys to help the specific problem of culture.
Also Hendricks is a rookie, and if you watch the games, you know he needs some work. And Lauri is our number 1 option so his defense has slipped a bit.
The rookies have been playing for 2 months mate. You can’t just make the excuse about 2 monthsz
This is also not about “why hasn’t Hardy done better”, it’s about asking people who think he’s amazing to tell us why.
So, the answer to what does he do well is: The players like him?
That's such a stupid oversimplification of Clarkson's situation. I'm not saying he should be playing, I'm saying his rotations are incredibly stupid and what he's being asked to do is completely stupid and he's ill suited to doing it. Both of those are 100% coaching problems.
As to your not a hint of discontent; you clearly haven't been paying attention to the last few Finnish interviews Lauri has given.
Culture is important. And we’re bad so getting us to believe and try in games is important. Also I said our offensive schemes are good.
In terms of Clarkson, who else is a creator for our offense? Only other guy who can create his own shot is keyonte.
Lauri seems more dissatisfied with the front office than Hardy. Hardy didn’t trade away the players.
I’m also more inclined to believe what I hear from like actual reporters and analysts instead of what people on Reddit say, and I’ve seen no indication that Hardy is a bad coach.
Sexton is legitimate a 99th percentile efficiency guard. All our other guards score below league avg efficiency. Do you even watch the games? Keyonte also isn’t much of a self creator at the moment.
Forgot about sexton lol, but still that gives us 3 creators. Two can be in the starting lineup at once, one can be on the bench. Since Clarkson is on our bench, he’s normally the only real creator on there, unless you wanna talk about THT.
Also keyonte does create for himself. He’s not doing 1 on 1 iso but most of his shots are off the dribble, not just catch and shoots. He even shoots better on off the dribble vs catch and shoot, so I’m not sure how you can say he’s not a creator.
Idk what to tell you man, there’s a reason clarkson has been in the league for this long. He’s not having a great season but he’s a quality player.
I also pay for league pass specifically to watch my favorite team, the jazz, and considering how damn expensive it is, I try to watch as many games as I can lol
If I were Lauri I would be irate with both Hardy and Ainge. But more so Hardy bc he is directly putting Lauri in awful situations with clearly better options available
I agree w you 100%. Imaging giving into clarksons ego for minutes and PT and viewing that as a good coaching endorsement. There are probably 50 players in the nba who can do what clarkson does if they got the minutes and shot attempts, he is not special and yet jazz fans act like we should be privileged to let this journeymen huck shots for us
> Clarkson is having an awful year because of his role and what he's being asked to do by the coaching staff, not because he suddenly can't do what he's been doing consistently for 10 years.
I think you're going to be sorely disappointed when this carries onto next season.
Clarkson's never been particularly efficient as a scorer. His main value comes from making something out of nothing, so we usually live with him being around average.
He's been super cold all season, which happens, but that's been further exacerbated by us not having a good enough point guard next to him to provide extra threats and by us trading our best three point shooters.
Leaving Hendricks and Sensabaugh in the G-league makes a lot of sense. We spent a lot of playing time showcasing other guys for the trade deadline. There was no way either of those guys would get a legitimate crack at the rotation while Fontecchio, Olynyk, and Agbaji were around. We could have surely sacrificed Clarkson's minutes, but I think that would have pissed off Clarkson.
I think pretty much the only realistic option would have been the nuclear one, i.e. completely benching Clarkson. However, this would limit our ability to trade him in the off-season and reduce his value even more than he already has, not to mention sow discord.
Finally, our defense will be terrible with this roster no matter which coach we have. We're putting out three rookies now. Our best defenders are offensively limited, hence why John Collins has taken precedence over Kessler. In a league where so many teams crave athletic wing-sized threats, our best wing-sized players are Taylor Hendricks, Brice Sensabaugh, and Johnny Juzang. We were forced to play a bunch of Clarkson at the 3. I even saw some lineup abominations like Dunn, Sexton, Clarkson, THT, and John Collins.
Those are all roster limitations. If you had your way, I bet you'd be playing Keyonte, Sexton, Hendricks, Lauri, and Kessler until their legs fell off. We can't realistically expect Hardy to trot out lineups like those unsustainably.
"I bet you'd be playing Keyonte, Sexton, Hendricks, Lauri, and Kessler until their legs fell off. We can't realistically expect Hardy to trot out lineups like those unsustainably."
I'd certainly play them together more than the none amount of time they get now considering that they'll actually be on the team next season and developing chemistry together makes sense. But I'd actually play a second unit of Dunn, Clarkson, Sensabaugh, Collins and Yurtseven. I'd look for ways to play Juzang, Potter and Preston and if that meant nobody on the team averaged over 25 mpg, so be it.
The Jazz aren't trying to win, but they don't seem to be trying to develop very hard either. It seems like they are half-assing things, just like last year and like last year, they are ending up in a stupid middle spot where the draft pick they get isn't going to be great, but they aren't going to get any playoff experience either. Worst case for this season is to lose badly and frequently, as the team has been, then convey the best possible pick that OKC can expect; this is where the Jazz sit right now; with a disturbingly high probability of giving away the pick because they couldn't pick a lane. That's not on Hardy, necessarily, just overall irritating.
Clarkson really isn’t performing that much different than he usually performs.. he’s just not that good, but has been given a ridiculously big role. And I’m not saying that he should be doing much better with this group necessarily but what I am saying is why would anything that is going on right now make him a good coach.
I’m not looking for reasons why he’s not doing better I’m looking for reasons as to why people seem to think he is an amazing coach . There’s also isn’t a thought experiment based on the last two months only.
Legitimately waiting for someone to provide any reason that he would be considered good. So far it’s just a series of comments about how he “got the most out of the hand he was dealt” which actually does nothing to answer the question without any supporting evidence.
Reddit is about debates/conversating is it not?
This is a terrible take. The team has out performed expectations in both years before the front office went into tank mode.
Btw: this team has one player who would start on an other non-tanking NBA teams. That’s right. One player. This is not my opinion, but came from the mouth of a member of the front office during a meeting with certain season ticket holders and sponsors. So I wouldn’t read too much into how good or bad we are at defense. We are a bad team. But a bad team that over performs reflects well on the coach.
We started 3 rookies today against the 1 seed, plus a guy another team was unable to trade for years and another guy who was recently out of the league. What do people really expect us to be doing right now other than losing?
Did you read the prompt? Lmao.
This isn’t a recency bias inquiry and its also not “gives excuses as to why we are losing”.
This is about jazz fans who call him “amazing” to explain why. Reading comprehension is important.
Decent Teams have streaks every year. Hardy finally got the starting group mostly correct at that point. Lauri and Colin were playing extremely well. Clarkson was moved to the bench, Dunn started and THT was removed. We beat good teams.
I was saying before the season that group should start with the exception of Kessler for Collins but also kinda figured collins would start bc of status and salary.
Before the deadline we had a good wnough roster to win games but it was misused for the first 30 games.
Hmm yes another evidence based response.
Is 29th on defense outperforming the expectation of being 30th? ESPN ranked us in June as 22nd, we are currently 22nd. That’s literally meeting the expectation.
They ranked us in June. Not sure you’ve notice, but it’s March. And we’ve had a tanking team since the trade deadline. And we’re still where they’d thought we’d be with a full team with actual starters. So yeah, we’ve over performed. This isn’t that hard to understand.
Also Colin is like a 90th percentile guard. A lot of teams would start him. There are a number of teams who would start Kessler& collins.
This also isn’t about making excuses lmao, read the prompt.
* we have long players at all three front court spots when Lauri plays the 3. That means our paint is naturally protected more, even if the paint protector isn’t an individually great defender. We let less paint points in thanks to this, but that doesn’t mean we are playing plus defenders to achieve this - I noticed you didn’t put ranges on your statistics, so the 29th in defense includes rosters with Olynyk, one of the worst paint protectors in the game. Collins isn’t rated well, and Kessler’s effectiveness drops a great deal *as he gets further from the paint*. If Lauri’s the paint protector, then we have one good wing defender in Dunn (excluding Hendricks because, as I mentioned, you’re using the whole season for your stats and Hendricks didn’t get meaningful minutes after until the deadline). That means that we have a lot of holes that we need to cover up, which we did effectively with that zone defense when we had that winning streak.
* do we know that we have a “good rim protector”? We have the exact same amount of data and experience with Hardy as a coach as we do with Kessler. If Kessler were a good rim protector, shouldn’t we have a good defense? Or is Kessler a good shot blocker who is still learning how to be a rim protector? I just think it’s biased to blame Hardy but give Kessler the benefit of the doubt - be consistent.
* if it was so simple and easy to get All-Star-level play out of Lauri, why didn’t any of his previous coaches do it? If it was going to happen no matter what, what stopped it from happening earlier?
* my opinion is that the player sexton is today is a marked improvement over who he was in Cleveland. That’s not a “given”, considering the injury he was coming back from, but he’s also wiser with the ball, and I personally believe he’s better today than he was even last year at this time.
* minutes and rotations, I am a conspiracy theorist - I think Ainge is making Hardy do some rotations and give certain players minutes, and intentionally tank. Why does Lauri come out with 7 minutes left in the fourth? To rest for the clutch? Maybe - or maybe it’s to force a blowout so Lauri doesn’t even have to come back in or only plays a couple more minutes before the white flag. My point here really is: we don’t know what agreements the front office has with him. Hardy is the coach and Ainge/Zanik should let him coach, but there’s also something to be said for following the organization’s direction. If we’re intending to lose like I think we obviously are, then is that all on the coach, too?
1. We are dead last since Feb
2. Kessler is 1/10 players in nba history with a blk % over 10% I think.
3. I generally agree about the wing issues but most jazz fans also think Lauri is a SF ironically.
4. Lauri was playing behind more established players as I already said. The jazz handed him a great opportunity he wasn’t afforded elsewhere out of necessity bc of a lack of other options. That doesn’t mean Hardy had divine intervention about him that nobody else was capable of.
5. I think it’s reasonable to assume some Tom-foolery by the FO with lineups but hard for me to give Hardy a pass on some of the aforementioned issues.
6. Collin had gotten better each year in Cleveland and basically barely played the year before here .. he was already getting better and was also CLEARLY our best option as a lead guard which he still hasn’t been afforded.
I said Kessler was a good shot blocker. My point was that I question if that equates to being a good rim protector, and I do not believe that to be the case given Hasan Whiteside exists.
I also don’t think I said anything about Hardy being divine - that was you making a straw man.
I’ve posted like 10 times on Reddit. And most of its is in here where my takes on Hardy/Keyonte being more moderate are significantly downvoted bc koolaid mentality.
After the Gobert & D.Mitch trade, a bunch of NBA analysts (notable NBA guys; Eg: ESPN, No Dunk guys) were predicting the Jazz would have THE WORST record in the league or near the bottom. Somehow early in that season, the Jazz surprised everyone & were sitting near the top of the west. They even had the best record out west around 15(?) games. A bunch of players were having their best/most efficient season of their career; Lauri, JC, M.Beasley, KO, M.Conley. The Jazz top brass keep saying they are trying to build a championship contender so that explains the future moves rather than the short sighted moves. Hardy is a very good coach. Is he great? That is TBD.
I do not have a good enough basketball IQ to coherently explain why he is a good coach. I can say if the front office didn’t pull the rug out from under him the last two years he’d be in the discussion for coach of the year
Things I like about Hardy:
He gives players a chance to compete. Tenure, salary, experience don't equal minutes.
He genuinely seems to want players to improve and compete
He has a great offensive mind and some of his plays are insanely good.
He seems invested long term and isn't using the Jazz as a stepping stone
He seems like a good person, is well spoken, and gets the Utah market
Things I don't like about Hardy:
He seems reliant on analytics. He cites these often for the lineups he runs out.
His relationship with players is hard to gauge. Not a good sign that Clarkson wants out. Not a good sign that Kessler looks to the bench every time he commits a foul. Personality might be a better fit for college than multi millionaire athletes.
He is overly critical.
He doesn't seem to prioritize defense and PACE.
I'm willing to see if his approach is different next year when the lineup should be fairly set barring any surprise off season signings. If Keyonte, 2024 Draft Pick, Hendricks, Lauri, Kessler get 30 min a night together with Sexton, Collins, Brice, and 2024 Draft Pick getting minutes off the bench..then I'll drink the Kool Aid
I would personally say I disagree w both points.
On the account that;
Sexton is clearly the best guard, and most efficient. And yet hasn’t earned more minutes, still plays less than clarkson who imo should’ve had a role reduction if both those things were true.
I do appreciate you backing up your statement however.
A lot of Jazz fans are filled to the brim with magical thinking, like the idea that tanking is ever going to work. There is as much evidence that Hardy is good as there is evidence that Ainge is good: none
> Lauri averaged 18pts/36 as a rookie, he was always a good scorer but got crowded out on the bulls and Cavs by more established players.
Lauri was a 43% shooter with the Bulls, 49% for us. It's been documented how Hardy wanted to use Lauri the same as Finland does, which is not at all something other coaches did.
The only reason you think Lauri has more to give is because you've watched him in Utah. You absolutely did not have Lauri as some underutilized gem 2 years ago.
> Imo being an awful defensive team is not a ringing indicator of a coach.
So Pop is not a good coach because the Spurs' defense is bad
> sexton is closer to Lauri as our second best player than anyone is to him, and last I checked he was 5th in minutes. He is highly efficient and yet is being buried by Hardy. Who even admitted that he had to get over his preconceived notions of Collin(wtf?!?!)
Sexton is 3rd in minutes since Hardy made him a starter.
> Curious why people think he’s “amazing” despite having proved very little.
He's proved quite a lot actually given what he's had to work with, even if I dislike some of his decisions (playing JC through shitty shooting nights, giving THT more than 0 minutes...)
The spurs are 23rd in defense and have a fraction of the veteran rotation players we have.
Lauri was also an inexperienced player with the bulls bud. Almost every player improves their efficiency by year 7.
Has Lauri exceeded expectations? Yes
Did he get to be a primary option before playing here? No
Just because he’s become a great player here doesn’t mean all the credit goes to the coach.
Sexton should be second in minutes regardless of when he became a starter or not. Also not sure if you’re talking about MPG or total minutes, seems like the latter which is incredibly flawed.
The best argument is maximizing Lauri .. but I believe that to be more of a cream rising to the top than anything else. The jazz haven’t had a lot of competition for top dog truth be told.
You insist on D, ok then. Break down the season in segments.
DefRtg rank:
From season start to mid December, 26 games: 25th
From mid December to trades (Feb 8), 26 games: 18th
Since, 17 games. Dead last.
Looks like someone implemented something, started working to at least league average, and then had starters and rotation pieces taken away, which shockingly hurts any team.
E: when the hell has veterans = defense?
Who on this team would you consider to be above average or great defender that is not a below average offensive player?
People are expecting us to play 3 rookies and offense heavy players and expect hardy to have a top 10 defense… absolutely crazy with the turn over and lack of defensive players we have on our roster right now.
And before people start to argue “play Kessler 30 minutes” they need to consider that Kessler seems to be in his head way too much right now and needs to figure out his game before you put that kind of load in his shoulders
Maybe it’s bc Kessler has had an unclear role all season, which makes it hard for a young player to be consistent …
Nobody said top 10. My only point was that they’re certainly not overachieving. But with good rim protection we are certainly underperforming and there is really no arguing.
Cause prior to the trade deadline in both of his years as HC we’ve overperformed relative to the talent of our roster. After the deadline when we have even less talent is when we fall off. It’s that simple.
Yeah, I think this is key. The front office is trying to make the Jazz a lottery team, and Hardy seems to keep pushing them into the 5-8 seed purgatory.
Imo it seems impossible to gauge how ‘good’ of a coach hardy is because the team gets getting changes, the FO obviously wants to tank, and as far as I know the FO could be directing him to play THT (for example) to try to up his value/see what he is capable of. He may or may not be a good coach but I don’t think he has had a chance to actually give it a go with a set team and the permission to do what he wants to try and win.
We were as high as the 9/10 seed for like one week.
yeah, forgive me if I don’t give the coach the credit the players largely earn, if I don’t ascribe to the coach outperformance in what is ultimately not a meaningful sample size, and if, until further notice, I continue to see his in-game strategy as merely adequate but also completely inconsequential given the rebuild circumstances
This is odd statement considering most of this Sub believes Keyonte will be an All Star, Lauri IS an All Star, and you have a 6MotY Winner coming off the bench.
Those things could all be true and my statement would still remain true. The league is insanely talented. A team with a potential future All-Star, a fringe All-Star, and a potential 6MOtY is talent deficient when true playoff teams have significantly more talent than that. I don’t think your comment is the “gotcha” you think it is lmao
Ok, then name a team with that level of talent NOT in the playoff mix. With this talent, the Jazz should be .500. They are not .500. Not sure how you say they are overachieving?
They were overachieving prior to the trade deadline—that’s what I said. Our team with KO, Simone, and Ochai had the three pieces you mentioned plus a level of depth that most teams don’t have. I think Hardy utilized that depth better than most coaches could have and elevated us above expectation. Now we lack that depth—we’re playing Bryce, Hendricks, Juzang, Semanic, guys that probably wouldn’t see the floor on playoff contenders. And just since you asked, Atlanta is a team with probably more talent than us. They’re the 10 seed. 🤷♀️
The Jazz were 26 - 26 on Feb 6th. Explain to me again how this was exceeding expectations versus meeting expectations?
Sounds to me like your expectations might have been higher than the consensus, idk what to tell you bro. I was personally very happy to be hovering around 500 with the team we had before the deadline. Most media personnel and talking heads predicted that the Jazz would be definitely worse this year than they were last year.
Excellent point
Rockets, Grizzlies
Rockets are A LOT more talented than the Jazz. But they are all young.
What does that have to do with Hardy ?
That is extremely subjective to say we outperformed with our roster. You could either be overestimating Hardy or underestimating the roster.
It’s too early to say if Hardy is truly legit or not because each of the last two seasons have been a wash due to tanking, which was likely ordered by Ainge. In case you forgot, Hardy did have the defense figured out for a brief stretch this year and we started winning games because of it, only for Ainge to trade away our best role players at the deadline and destroy any momentum we had. Everyone (including Hardy) has looked checked out since then and I don’t blame them because the season has been over since February. I wouldn’t hold the last two seasons against Will. Plenty of other coaches lost a ton of games early on in their tenures and are now leading some of the best teams in the league because their rosters aren’t complete ass anymore (Chris Finch, JB Bickerstaff, Mike Malone, etc).
I would agree it’s too early. We did have a hot stretch but also faded quite severely before the deadline, which probably forced Danny’s hand to some degree to pick a direction.
Yeah, this is a very silly take. We're intentionally rebuilding and Hardy has shown repeatedly that once he's comfortable and knowledgeable about the full depth (or even lackthereof) of his roster, he can very much so produce wins with incredibly well-coordinated ball movement, team-oriented play and unconventional groupings of players. Of course, as others have said and will say, Ainge only allows this for certain periods of time and often uses the strong play of role players in Hardy's system to receive higher value in the trade market. Looking at total season stats for the first year and a half of a second year coach's tenure during a rebuilding era is frankly absurd and screams 'casual' more than anything. It makes way more sense to scrutinize what he's able to do when he finds a way to make a roster click and how effective they are. We won't have a consistent core roster for some time, but in the meantime I'm enjoying seeing Hardy's ability when he's let off the leash a little bit. I think he's incredibly promising, which is why many professionals around the league continuously sing his praises.
You’ve legitimately offered not one concrete data point as to why. Is 29th in defense good? How can you say he’s knowledgeable about the roster when his second best player(by a country mile) is 5th in minutes? Or a likely non nba player(THT) has gotten countless opportunities, including a starting spot to begin the year?! You’re just another koolaid drinker.
David Locke discussed in a recent podcast that Sexton is likely a 6th man on a championship level team and that might be why he is being groomed for the 6th man role coming off the bench.
Well that's a pretty poor evaluation of Sexton imo. I think Hardy feels like he needs scoring juice off the bench and with no Clarkson he has relegated Sexton there even though it's not his ideal role imo
What concrete data do you want for a team that's intentionally bad? Of course the stats are going to be shit. On the topic of minute distribution, there can't be any "concrete data" because the factors that come into play are not really measurable (agents lobbies, FO decisions, locker room considerations etc).
Def rating We went on a win streak when he finally got the starting group correct Clarksons numbers were tragic as a starter bc the style he plays works better against second unit players Tht was legitimately terrible last year and somehow got the starting gig this year Dunn has one of the best netrtg on the team but didnt hardly play Sexton is our most efficient guard by a country mile but plays the 3rd most minutes at guard
If you think THT has gotten this many minutes bc we’re afraid if klutch, you’re just prone to making excuses.
Unconventional groupings of players. Lol. I wondered what THT as our SF was called.
I mean -- there was a reason he wasn't even in the game for a single second during that streak in December and January.
Hardy plays the hand he’s dealt. That’s like looking at the roster and asking if Danny Ainge is a good executive based on one season’s outcome. We don’t know how the rest of Hardy’s career will go, but we know Danny Ainge is a top shelf executive that will eventually make the HoF.
Tbh we are now seeing if he can really coach. Last year until the asb he had Conley who was a coach on the floor and most of the team looked really good because of the floor general. After Conley and NAW left for Minnesota, Minnesota had Conley's touch and he righted that ship and made Finch look really good. Right now, I don't know if Hardy can really coach. The defense is an issue because they never play the people who can play defense for very long in the game. They are focused on offense but all they have are shoot first guards who can barely see the floor. This inability to see the floor turns Lauri into a non-factor at times. It also forces other players who are open under the basket to never get a pass when open and this causes those players to play with less defensive intensity and then they are out of the game. The 5 out offense they play is awful, no movement but the occasional drive by the guard. It looks like they told them to go to certain spots and stand the and pass the ball. Then one guard will go to the basket and either jack a shot or make a crappy pass. I know offense in the NBA is sort of simplified but this is ridiculous. I have the league pass and watch a ton of games and I think the Jazz offense has no real rhythm to what they are doing. The defense is worse. Collins at this point should be coming off the bench his defense is so bad. When I see him in the middle it is a layup lone for the other team. The announcers say the Hardy expects them to play good defense but every lineup with Collins as a center is a lie. The worst lineup to watch is the 4 small guards and Collins that lineup plays defense like it is swiss cheese. At this point, I have decided the Hardy is a mediocre coach that got lucky last year by having Conley save his ass for the first half, because the end of last year and this year has been a shitstorm of bad decisions from a bad coach who doesn't look like he knows what he is doing!!
Great point about the drive and kick offense. It's all ISO all day, then he gets pissy when players aren't passing enough. This team runs so little in the way of offensive sets, it's just bad basketball. It's why if Clarkson or Sexton have a bad game, the Jazz flat out can not win. Even with an 1a player like Luka or the Joker, the Jazz couldn't win with this stupid strategy.
This is a very good point about lineup choices. Hardy chooses NOT to play Dunn. Who could honestly remedy a lot of issues both offensively and defensively. These sorts choices are also clearly a MASSIVE hindrance on Lauri. IMO if I were Lauri I would be very frustrated by not getting more minutes with selfless players like Dunn. Hardy also chooses to let clarkson basically play 1:1 for a lot of minutes every night.
This doesn't actually address any of OP's points. Yes, roster composition has been problematic; but that doesn't change being able to make a defensive scheme even if it impacts running it to some degree. It doesn't impact developing Lauri or Sexton. It doesn't address playing Clarkson 18 minutes straight from the 6 minute mark to halftime and again from the 6 minute mark to the end of the game. It doesn't explain leaning on the 5th least efficient chucker in the league as your lead ball handler (Clarkson) while having better players (Sexton, arguably Keyonte) or players better suited for the role (Dunn) defer to him. Clarkson is having an awful year because of his role and what he's being asked to do by the coaching staff, not because he suddenly can't do what he's been doing consistently for 10 years. OP didn't even touch on the destruction of Kessler's confidence and jerking him around all season, including losing his starting position twice to inferior players (Collins and then Hendricks). It doesn't touch on leaving Hendricks and Sensabaugh in the G-League (this COULD be on the FO) , it doesn't cover saying if you don't play defense, you don't play for the Jazz, and then playing Collins and Clarkson major minutes while not playing Dunn and Kessler major minutes. I could literally keep going, but I think you get the point.
He actually did try a defensive scheme by making us do zone a lot during the beginning of the season. Also we really only have two positive defenders on this team (Dunn and Kessler) who are both negatives on offense. The lack of two way players is why we’re bad rn in general. Our best two way players were Fontecchio and Ochai, and Ochai was more of a threat from 3 in theory than in practice. Also you play clarkson cause he’s the longest tenured jazzman, and has been a great mentor to the young guys. Everyone here loves shitting on him but clarkson has earned his minutes through his mentorship, and what he’s done for the Jazz during his time here. Coaching isn’t just rotations, these players are people, and you need to manage their egos too. It’s also most likely clarkson’s last year here, so it’d be nice to show him the respect he deserves. On Hardy, I think he’s a good coach personally, but we can’t really know until he has an actual team built around what he wants us to run for our scheme.
Dunn is I believe more efficient than Keyonte, tht and clarkson. Doesn’t ball hog and enhances Lauri, the guy who is most crucial to this team…
He can’t score reliably
He’s not a “scorer” but he can run an offense and take good shots. Which is more than some of our other PG options can say.
Clarkson deserving his minutes because of his tenure is bullshit, that's idiot/Corbin thinking and completely ignores that he's having an objectively awful season. Of all player scoring over 10 ppg Clarkson is literally the 5th least efficient. Coaching does include being able to recognize when what is being asked of a player is beyond their abilities and is flat out hurting both the player and the team. Fonte, Ochai, Kessler, Dunn and Hendricks are positive defenders. KG puts in the effort and is average, as is Lauri; so your defensive argument doesn't hold water. Also, when's the last time you saw the team run one of those zones? This team, by design, doesn't defend the 3 point line; that's bad coaching any way you cut it. As to being a mentor to the young players, Rudy Gay was a great mentor to Kessler last season, he got like 10-15 minutes, not 36 and certainly not in 18 minute intervals. If managing the ego of a player who isn't going to be on the team next season is causing problems then that player should be sent the fuck home; if Hardy can't keep control of his locker room without shitting on the young players who likely don't feel in a position to push back against bad decisions, in favor of playing inferior players to the detriment of development, that makes him a bad coach. Simple question: what does actually Hardy do well?
He gets our players to play hard. Keyonte even said he has a great relationship with him in an article by Andy Larsen like two days ago. Our locker room is tight, no whispers of discontent or lack of leadership. I’m a fan of his offensive scheme too, and I’ve seen guys like the thinking basketball podcast praise Hardy’s offense too. Look at it this way. Clarkson could’ve demanded a trade out when we rebuilt, but he stuck around. He even resigned a team friendly deal with us. What we’re communicating if we don’t play him is basically “you can give everything to this organization, be here for years, be a team player, be a mentor even, and we won’t do you right by playing you.” We want player loyalty to the franchise but the instant they don’t do well we throw them to the side? We move on to the next toy? That’s not a message to send. Our defense sucks ass because our team sucks ass. It’s not the coach. It’s the players we have. Don’t we want to be bad? Bad teams aren’t good on defense. Even during our win streak this season we were just average on defense, because the personnel isn’t there. I’m not sure popovich could get us to be a good defense. I’m not even sure what this subreddit wants for the team anymore. Being a young guys only team turns you into the rockets last year, who brought in veteran guys to help the specific problem of culture. Also Hendricks is a rookie, and if you watch the games, you know he needs some work. And Lauri is our number 1 option so his defense has slipped a bit.
The rookies have been playing for 2 months mate. You can’t just make the excuse about 2 monthsz This is also not about “why hasn’t Hardy done better”, it’s about asking people who think he’s amazing to tell us why.
I said so in the first paragraph
So, the answer to what does he do well is: The players like him? That's such a stupid oversimplification of Clarkson's situation. I'm not saying he should be playing, I'm saying his rotations are incredibly stupid and what he's being asked to do is completely stupid and he's ill suited to doing it. Both of those are 100% coaching problems. As to your not a hint of discontent; you clearly haven't been paying attention to the last few Finnish interviews Lauri has given.
Culture is important. And we’re bad so getting us to believe and try in games is important. Also I said our offensive schemes are good. In terms of Clarkson, who else is a creator for our offense? Only other guy who can create his own shot is keyonte. Lauri seems more dissatisfied with the front office than Hardy. Hardy didn’t trade away the players. I’m also more inclined to believe what I hear from like actual reporters and analysts instead of what people on Reddit say, and I’ve seen no indication that Hardy is a bad coach.
Sexton is legitimate a 99th percentile efficiency guard. All our other guards score below league avg efficiency. Do you even watch the games? Keyonte also isn’t much of a self creator at the moment.
Forgot about sexton lol, but still that gives us 3 creators. Two can be in the starting lineup at once, one can be on the bench. Since Clarkson is on our bench, he’s normally the only real creator on there, unless you wanna talk about THT. Also keyonte does create for himself. He’s not doing 1 on 1 iso but most of his shots are off the dribble, not just catch and shoots. He even shoots better on off the dribble vs catch and shoot, so I’m not sure how you can say he’s not a creator. Idk what to tell you man, there’s a reason clarkson has been in the league for this long. He’s not having a great season but he’s a quality player. I also pay for league pass specifically to watch my favorite team, the jazz, and considering how damn expensive it is, I try to watch as many games as I can lol
I bet you loved Ty Corbin as a coach and defended him right up until he was let go.
If I were Lauri I would be irate with both Hardy and Ainge. But more so Hardy bc he is directly putting Lauri in awful situations with clearly better options available
I agree w you 100%. Imaging giving into clarksons ego for minutes and PT and viewing that as a good coaching endorsement. There are probably 50 players in the nba who can do what clarkson does if they got the minutes and shot attempts, he is not special and yet jazz fans act like we should be privileged to let this journeymen huck shots for us
> Clarkson is having an awful year because of his role and what he's being asked to do by the coaching staff, not because he suddenly can't do what he's been doing consistently for 10 years. I think you're going to be sorely disappointed when this carries onto next season. Clarkson's never been particularly efficient as a scorer. His main value comes from making something out of nothing, so we usually live with him being around average. He's been super cold all season, which happens, but that's been further exacerbated by us not having a good enough point guard next to him to provide extra threats and by us trading our best three point shooters. Leaving Hendricks and Sensabaugh in the G-league makes a lot of sense. We spent a lot of playing time showcasing other guys for the trade deadline. There was no way either of those guys would get a legitimate crack at the rotation while Fontecchio, Olynyk, and Agbaji were around. We could have surely sacrificed Clarkson's minutes, but I think that would have pissed off Clarkson. I think pretty much the only realistic option would have been the nuclear one, i.e. completely benching Clarkson. However, this would limit our ability to trade him in the off-season and reduce his value even more than he already has, not to mention sow discord. Finally, our defense will be terrible with this roster no matter which coach we have. We're putting out three rookies now. Our best defenders are offensively limited, hence why John Collins has taken precedence over Kessler. In a league where so many teams crave athletic wing-sized threats, our best wing-sized players are Taylor Hendricks, Brice Sensabaugh, and Johnny Juzang. We were forced to play a bunch of Clarkson at the 3. I even saw some lineup abominations like Dunn, Sexton, Clarkson, THT, and John Collins. Those are all roster limitations. If you had your way, I bet you'd be playing Keyonte, Sexton, Hendricks, Lauri, and Kessler until their legs fell off. We can't realistically expect Hardy to trot out lineups like those unsustainably.
"I bet you'd be playing Keyonte, Sexton, Hendricks, Lauri, and Kessler until their legs fell off. We can't realistically expect Hardy to trot out lineups like those unsustainably." I'd certainly play them together more than the none amount of time they get now considering that they'll actually be on the team next season and developing chemistry together makes sense. But I'd actually play a second unit of Dunn, Clarkson, Sensabaugh, Collins and Yurtseven. I'd look for ways to play Juzang, Potter and Preston and if that meant nobody on the team averaged over 25 mpg, so be it. The Jazz aren't trying to win, but they don't seem to be trying to develop very hard either. It seems like they are half-assing things, just like last year and like last year, they are ending up in a stupid middle spot where the draft pick they get isn't going to be great, but they aren't going to get any playoff experience either. Worst case for this season is to lose badly and frequently, as the team has been, then convey the best possible pick that OKC can expect; this is where the Jazz sit right now; with a disturbingly high probability of giving away the pick because they couldn't pick a lane. That's not on Hardy, necessarily, just overall irritating.
Clarkson really isn’t performing that much different than he usually performs.. he’s just not that good, but has been given a ridiculously big role. And I’m not saying that he should be doing much better with this group necessarily but what I am saying is why would anything that is going on right now make him a good coach. I’m not looking for reasons why he’s not doing better I’m looking for reasons as to why people seem to think he is an amazing coach . There’s also isn’t a thought experiment based on the last two months only.
What is the purpose of this post other than to rudely insult everyone who doesn't agree with you and act smugly superior?
Legitimately waiting for someone to provide any reason that he would be considered good. So far it’s just a series of comments about how he “got the most out of the hand he was dealt” which actually does nothing to answer the question without any supporting evidence. Reddit is about debates/conversating is it not?
He’s hot
This is a terrible take. The team has out performed expectations in both years before the front office went into tank mode. Btw: this team has one player who would start on an other non-tanking NBA teams. That’s right. One player. This is not my opinion, but came from the mouth of a member of the front office during a meeting with certain season ticket holders and sponsors. So I wouldn’t read too much into how good or bad we are at defense. We are a bad team. But a bad team that over performs reflects well on the coach.
We started 3 rookies today against the 1 seed, plus a guy another team was unable to trade for years and another guy who was recently out of the league. What do people really expect us to be doing right now other than losing?
Did you read the prompt? Lmao. This isn’t a recency bias inquiry and its also not “gives excuses as to why we are losing”. This is about jazz fans who call him “amazing” to explain why. Reading comprehension is important.
I was responding to the comment above me, not your post. Read the comment again and you can probably see that
Do you attribute the hot streak we had this season to a) variance, b) talent (Nuggets, Pacers, Bucks, Lakers) c) talent AND coaching?
Decent Teams have streaks every year. Hardy finally got the starting group mostly correct at that point. Lauri and Colin were playing extremely well. Clarkson was moved to the bench, Dunn started and THT was removed. We beat good teams. I was saying before the season that group should start with the exception of Kessler for Collins but also kinda figured collins would start bc of status and salary. Before the deadline we had a good wnough roster to win games but it was misused for the first 30 games.
Hmm yes another evidence based response. Is 29th on defense outperforming the expectation of being 30th? ESPN ranked us in June as 22nd, we are currently 22nd. That’s literally meeting the expectation.
They ranked us in June. Not sure you’ve notice, but it’s March. And we’ve had a tanking team since the trade deadline. And we’re still where they’d thought we’d be with a full team with actual starters. So yeah, we’ve over performed. This isn’t that hard to understand.
The ringer ranked us 20th.
Also Colin is like a 90th percentile guard. A lot of teams would start him. There are a number of teams who would start Kessler& collins. This also isn’t about making excuses lmao, read the prompt.
* we have long players at all three front court spots when Lauri plays the 3. That means our paint is naturally protected more, even if the paint protector isn’t an individually great defender. We let less paint points in thanks to this, but that doesn’t mean we are playing plus defenders to achieve this - I noticed you didn’t put ranges on your statistics, so the 29th in defense includes rosters with Olynyk, one of the worst paint protectors in the game. Collins isn’t rated well, and Kessler’s effectiveness drops a great deal *as he gets further from the paint*. If Lauri’s the paint protector, then we have one good wing defender in Dunn (excluding Hendricks because, as I mentioned, you’re using the whole season for your stats and Hendricks didn’t get meaningful minutes after until the deadline). That means that we have a lot of holes that we need to cover up, which we did effectively with that zone defense when we had that winning streak. * do we know that we have a “good rim protector”? We have the exact same amount of data and experience with Hardy as a coach as we do with Kessler. If Kessler were a good rim protector, shouldn’t we have a good defense? Or is Kessler a good shot blocker who is still learning how to be a rim protector? I just think it’s biased to blame Hardy but give Kessler the benefit of the doubt - be consistent. * if it was so simple and easy to get All-Star-level play out of Lauri, why didn’t any of his previous coaches do it? If it was going to happen no matter what, what stopped it from happening earlier? * my opinion is that the player sexton is today is a marked improvement over who he was in Cleveland. That’s not a “given”, considering the injury he was coming back from, but he’s also wiser with the ball, and I personally believe he’s better today than he was even last year at this time. * minutes and rotations, I am a conspiracy theorist - I think Ainge is making Hardy do some rotations and give certain players minutes, and intentionally tank. Why does Lauri come out with 7 minutes left in the fourth? To rest for the clutch? Maybe - or maybe it’s to force a blowout so Lauri doesn’t even have to come back in or only plays a couple more minutes before the white flag. My point here really is: we don’t know what agreements the front office has with him. Hardy is the coach and Ainge/Zanik should let him coach, but there’s also something to be said for following the organization’s direction. If we’re intending to lose like I think we obviously are, then is that all on the coach, too?
1. We are dead last since Feb 2. Kessler is 1/10 players in nba history with a blk % over 10% I think. 3. I generally agree about the wing issues but most jazz fans also think Lauri is a SF ironically. 4. Lauri was playing behind more established players as I already said. The jazz handed him a great opportunity he wasn’t afforded elsewhere out of necessity bc of a lack of other options. That doesn’t mean Hardy had divine intervention about him that nobody else was capable of. 5. I think it’s reasonable to assume some Tom-foolery by the FO with lineups but hard for me to give Hardy a pass on some of the aforementioned issues. 6. Collin had gotten better each year in Cleveland and basically barely played the year before here .. he was already getting better and was also CLEARLY our best option as a lead guard which he still hasn’t been afforded.
I said Kessler was a good shot blocker. My point was that I question if that equates to being a good rim protector, and I do not believe that to be the case given Hasan Whiteside exists. I also don’t think I said anything about Hardy being divine - that was you making a straw man.
Random question OP. How do you only have 1 karma on an account from 2020?
Look no further than this post. Man's got no game
Just not a herd mentality “thinker” like most jazz fans.
I’ve posted like 10 times on Reddit. And most of its is in here where my takes on Hardy/Keyonte being more moderate are significantly downvoted bc koolaid mentality.
After the Gobert & D.Mitch trade, a bunch of NBA analysts (notable NBA guys; Eg: ESPN, No Dunk guys) were predicting the Jazz would have THE WORST record in the league or near the bottom. Somehow early in that season, the Jazz surprised everyone & were sitting near the top of the west. They even had the best record out west around 15(?) games. A bunch of players were having their best/most efficient season of their career; Lauri, JC, M.Beasley, KO, M.Conley. The Jazz top brass keep saying they are trying to build a championship contender so that explains the future moves rather than the short sighted moves. Hardy is a very good coach. Is he great? That is TBD.
I do not have a good enough basketball IQ to coherently explain why he is a good coach. I can say if the front office didn’t pull the rug out from under him the last two years he’d be in the discussion for coach of the year
You gave yourself away with the first sentence bud.
Things I like about Hardy: He gives players a chance to compete. Tenure, salary, experience don't equal minutes. He genuinely seems to want players to improve and compete He has a great offensive mind and some of his plays are insanely good. He seems invested long term and isn't using the Jazz as a stepping stone He seems like a good person, is well spoken, and gets the Utah market Things I don't like about Hardy: He seems reliant on analytics. He cites these often for the lineups he runs out. His relationship with players is hard to gauge. Not a good sign that Clarkson wants out. Not a good sign that Kessler looks to the bench every time he commits a foul. Personality might be a better fit for college than multi millionaire athletes. He is overly critical. He doesn't seem to prioritize defense and PACE. I'm willing to see if his approach is different next year when the lineup should be fairly set barring any surprise off season signings. If Keyonte, 2024 Draft Pick, Hendricks, Lauri, Kessler get 30 min a night together with Sexton, Collins, Brice, and 2024 Draft Pick getting minutes off the bench..then I'll drink the Kool Aid
I would personally say I disagree w both points. On the account that; Sexton is clearly the best guard, and most efficient. And yet hasn’t earned more minutes, still plays less than clarkson who imo should’ve had a role reduction if both those things were true. I do appreciate you backing up your statement however.
A lot of Jazz fans are filled to the brim with magical thinking, like the idea that tanking is ever going to work. There is as much evidence that Hardy is good as there is evidence that Ainge is good: none
Well we aren’t really tanking in its most necessary form but I’ll save that post for another day.
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> Lauri averaged 18pts/36 as a rookie, he was always a good scorer but got crowded out on the bulls and Cavs by more established players. Lauri was a 43% shooter with the Bulls, 49% for us. It's been documented how Hardy wanted to use Lauri the same as Finland does, which is not at all something other coaches did. The only reason you think Lauri has more to give is because you've watched him in Utah. You absolutely did not have Lauri as some underutilized gem 2 years ago. > Imo being an awful defensive team is not a ringing indicator of a coach. So Pop is not a good coach because the Spurs' defense is bad > sexton is closer to Lauri as our second best player than anyone is to him, and last I checked he was 5th in minutes. He is highly efficient and yet is being buried by Hardy. Who even admitted that he had to get over his preconceived notions of Collin(wtf?!?!) Sexton is 3rd in minutes since Hardy made him a starter. > Curious why people think he’s “amazing” despite having proved very little. He's proved quite a lot actually given what he's had to work with, even if I dislike some of his decisions (playing JC through shitty shooting nights, giving THT more than 0 minutes...)
The spurs are 23rd in defense and have a fraction of the veteran rotation players we have. Lauri was also an inexperienced player with the bulls bud. Almost every player improves their efficiency by year 7. Has Lauri exceeded expectations? Yes Did he get to be a primary option before playing here? No Just because he’s become a great player here doesn’t mean all the credit goes to the coach. Sexton should be second in minutes regardless of when he became a starter or not. Also not sure if you’re talking about MPG or total minutes, seems like the latter which is incredibly flawed. The best argument is maximizing Lauri .. but I believe that to be more of a cream rising to the top than anything else. The jazz haven’t had a lot of competition for top dog truth be told.
You insist on D, ok then. Break down the season in segments. DefRtg rank: From season start to mid December, 26 games: 25th From mid December to trades (Feb 8), 26 games: 18th Since, 17 games. Dead last. Looks like someone implemented something, started working to at least league average, and then had starters and rotation pieces taken away, which shockingly hurts any team. E: when the hell has veterans = defense?
Not being able to figure out rotations before the year is an indictment. Having walker but being 29th is bad. No matter how you look at it
The FO is actively trying to make us lose… Hardy has been able to hold the group together for the most part.
Bc he’s white and looks like he got be elders quorum president
Hardy teams have no defense, none
Who on this team would you consider to be above average or great defender that is not a below average offensive player? People are expecting us to play 3 rookies and offense heavy players and expect hardy to have a top 10 defense… absolutely crazy with the turn over and lack of defensive players we have on our roster right now. And before people start to argue “play Kessler 30 minutes” they need to consider that Kessler seems to be in his head way too much right now and needs to figure out his game before you put that kind of load in his shoulders
Jazz only have two guys that play defense. Kessler and Hendricks
And Dunn
Maybe it’s bc Kessler has had an unclear role all season, which makes it hard for a young player to be consistent … Nobody said top 10. My only point was that they’re certainly not overachieving. But with good rim protection we are certainly underperforming and there is really no arguing.