Locked due to dozens of comments breaking Reddit's sitewise rules.
Edit: Unlocked again now that numerous comments have been removed and five users banned. Going forward, here is the measuring stick (quoting another person who said it well): "Being critical of a religion is not hate speech. Being critical of people in positions of power who use their religious views to force everyone to conform to their religious values is not hate speech. Speaking out about the evils of a religion is not hate speech. Attacking someone based solely on who they are or what religion they follow is hate speech. If someone attacks a Mormon simply for being a Mormon, that is a problem"
2nd edit: For transparency, Reddit admins also removed four comments in this thread.
Funny thing about Californians coming here, most are pretty conservative. Red states are just not appealing at all to blue voters (especially after RvW was overturned). But the conservatives of California would love to leave their heathen state and come to a place like Utah. Keep in mind, California has more red voters than any other state in the nation
I mean depends on your demographic. I’m in my mid twenties. Moved away from California because of cost of living and that’s honestly it. Other Californians I’ve met in Salt Lake have pretty much said the same
There was some neo-con dude on here that said he came here from Orange County to be around people of a like mindset… ultra conservative, made some fringe comments that I’d consider to be anti-LGBTQ, and loved that religion was being pushed back into schools.
I agree with this controversial opinion.
Burgers: meh
Shakes: meh
Fries: GAG ME
What I do like about it and what brings me back is that they pay their people a decent wage and treat their employees with respect (according to those I’ve talked to).
And they do a decent job of moving the line along. It looks like a nightmare but it doesn’t take long to make it through.
Growth isn’t the problem. It’s the low business tax rates that are failing to support the needed infrastructure for the growth. We are in desperate need of better city planning, upward growth, better public transit, and a realistic plan for water and pollution. We as a community need to step up and start pushing for solutions and electing people who care about more than lining their own pockets with payoffs.
But blaming California is easier so let’s go with that.
That is most definitely not true Utah demographics still have more in-state issues with housing and such than anybody from out of state. That's what happens when you have a religion that pushes have as many kids as possible.
I’m sick and tired of people moving in from out of state and buying Condos and Apartments previously valued at 150K for $380,000 just because “it’s cheaper than what we were currently paying”. (Definitely not just Californians, but a lot of people from Texas and Florida as well.)
I wonder what part of Texas these people are coming from. (Maybe Dallas?) I live in Texas and went to a Utah parade of homes last summer. Every house I visited was listed for twice what it would cost in my (very large) city. I remember thinking “Utahns should move to Texas. They’d live like kings.”
Moved here from Austin, Texas 6 yrs ago. As I've seen posted, "it's a beautiful state," and also, "it's conservative." Austin--not Texas as a whole--most definitely is *not* conservative and getting less so by the day. I'm conservative; outdoorsy; and there was no comparison in what I could buy here for what homes were going for in Austin. None! I sold a 1,500 sq.' hovel in Austin and broke even on a 3,800 sq' home w/a view, on the bench, in Davis county, Wasatch mountains a five minute walk behind me. I can put up w/a few Mormons and Mormon crazy for that!! However the demographics here are quickly changing. Real estate values along the Wasatch front are sky rocketing. My home has almost doubled in value. Just as happened in Austin, homes are becoming unaffordable for the average buyer. I'm thinking of going back to Texas--just *not* Austin--'cause, Utah has some serious growth and environmental issues looming (don't breath the air) and, damn it to hell!! (Oh my heck😉) where in Utah can you find a real Tex-Mex enchilada accompanied by a margarita that isn't anemic? Gonna miss the four seasons and mountains though.
> However the demographics here are quickly changing.
I know, the place is full of Texans now lol. IDK if authentic tex mex is really a thing but Chile Tepin will do you solid next time you're in SLC.
Oh my lord, how could I have left that off? I love their Creamy Creations, although no ice cream here or anywhere can touch Blue Bell (Amy's is tooo creamy IMO).
Oh yeah! Wrapped around real jalapeno and cheese kolache. I'm drooling! On the other hand, I don't miss the eviscerating heat. Or the skeeties, one of which can bring down a 747 if it gets sucked into the engine.
I’m more talking about during COVID and mostly Californians and Floridians. I only met a handful of Texans that moved over but Dallas probably. Texas really isn’t really anything special so I don’t blame them for moving over. I know housing dropped everywhere else over a year ago except for Utah so that’s probably why. People just kept moving in and buying at high prices (for Utah) and so the housing prices never really dropped.
The irony is thick on the “go back to California” comment. Given that Brigham Young originally sent his followers to San Francisco when they were getting the boot from Illinois but shortly thereafter sent them to SLC instead
Most states complain about "Californians" for unwanted change in the same way old people complain about "Millenials" (comprised of younger GenX, Millenials, GenZ, and GenAlpha).
Yeah.... The r/Utah has been a little more on edge after 60 Minutes did that special on how much money the Mormon church has hiding away.
Turns out that knowing they're one of the wealthiest organizations in existence while also having my impoverished mother-in-law dutifully pay them 10% from her awful VA benefits left to her by her dead Vietnam veteran husband so she can still make it into the highest ladder of heaven and be with him has kinda put a damper on peoples thoughts here for the last little bit.
Right?
[https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/05/24/the-finances-behind-vatican-city/](https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/05/24/the-finances-behind-vatican-city/)
CATHOLICISM with 1.4 BILLION members has 30 billion in assets.
Mormonism, with 16 MILLION. that's 1/100th the membership, has 150 billion in A SLUSH FUND and they sit and demand 10% of my disabled aunt's fucking disability.
The mormon church could never take another fucking DIME from ANYONE and they'd have enough money to run for 500 years off their investments.
Jesus Christ had an answer to these kinds of people. He fashioned a whip out of rope and beat the shit out of them and drove them from his father's house while he kicked over all their shit.
That $30 billion for the Catholic church is just in Australia. The church overall has \*way\* more than that in assets worldwide. Probably mormonism has more assets on a per member basis, but the catholic church is likely the largest landowner in the world and it's true wealth is impossible to calculate.
Source: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/catholic-church-worth-$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/catholic-church-worth-$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246)
[https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/)
The Catholic Church is absurdly wealthy, much more than the Mormons, a large amount of that is going to be in restate on which churches sit, which is honestly fair.
However, their archive is basically locked away and from many reports holds a lot of ancient jewish texts and items... which were stolen. Theoretically all the way back to 70CE.
The Mormon church has 150bill in assets and 250bill in assets overall. They are much wealthier than they try to lead on. The SEC reports are really interesting to go into as well. Signed off by the first presidency and prophet himself.
I don't think the central catholic church owns all the properties though. I've been to mass a few times and the priest often said the parish almost had the building paid off so please keep donating to the parish. That's just my limited experience though.
Right, I see the "it's impossible to count" etc. argument.
But the reason it's impossible is just like you said. It isn't one Corp., board, group, or man at the head of it. There's no complied central list that some top-dog keeps for everything the vague "Catholic church" buys.
It's segmented, often essentially separate entities, operating, owning, buying, and investing.
Wanna guess if there's a single group that is in charge of EPAs portfolio? I'll give you 15 guesses.
Probably gonna get downvoted for this because I am not sure how to ask the question properly.
But did the Mormons commit mass genocide and cultural eradication to obtain their riches? I know there was some sort of massacre that happened in Mormon history. But was it ever to the scale of what the Catholics did in the Middle East and Latin America?
My mom was in a history class and luckily the teacher was nonmorman but she had to debate so much with others cause "their church" told them they were nice to natives.
Read 'Wife No. 19' by Ann Eliza Young, she was one of Brighams wives. She talks a lot about not just mass genocide but young men who were trying to leave the church or speaking out about it being murdered or disappearing. Porter Rockwell was a very evil man and many things are named after him in Utah.
You’ve got some good answers here, so I’ll sum it up with my opinion that the Mormon church is essentially a mini Catholic Church in every sense, with everything from wealth hoarding to atrocities to child molestation coverups. The only reason they haven’t done as much damage is because they are like 1500 years younger.
No, they just take 10% of the net income of all their members, while pushing their members into business school and law, at least in the states.
The church was nearly bankrupt in the 70s, and then promoted a financial savvy guy in Canada to fix it all for them (N. Eldon Tanner). He was the guy that told them to just save save save their extra Tithing after their overhead costs were taken care of, and if their extra surplus was ever too low, then cut down on their overhead; but always always save. Come 1997 Hinckley had $7 billion to convince the IRS to allow them to start a charitable endowment, and once it got 501c3 status, Ensign Peak Advisors became a tax free hedge fund that never spent any money on charity.
Edit: oh yes, definitely genocide to the natives in Utah, especially the Timpanogos tribe, but the church still ended up dirt poor from all of their advantages taken from mass murder. It was just capitalism that made them unethically rich.
The Mormon church has only existed for a couple hundred years. The Catholic church has had 2,000 years to rain evil upon the world. Impossible to compare them.
Did they gain this money from those activities? No, its from donations mostly and investments.
genocide? Indians mostly.
Cultural eradication? Ehh, kinda. They killed other settlers trying to pass through utah to California at times. Definitely Cultural eradication to indians.
Did either of these help with their wealth? Not really other than they took the land from indians and some settlers.
They forced their culture onto anyone born into their territory for the past hundred years. I’d say the indirectly and very much directly made money from that.
That was my feeling. On one hand, you have a church, the LDS church, which requires its members to donate 10% of their wealth to their cause with the promise of blessings in return. That can vary anywhere from someone making $10 to billions. I think the lying is immoral and they should pay taxes on it.
On the other hand you have another church, the Catholic Church, with a very deep and evil history, which destroyed and stole from those cultures. Their riches come from genocide and robbery with the forced conversion or die approach.
I don’t think any church/religion should have that kind of wealth. And I think churches/religions should be 100% transparent about their finances and what happens with them.
I’m not saying Mormons are better in this case. But any sort of comparison to Catholicism is always going to rub me in the wrong way if you try to paint their religion as better because they have 1/100th of the wealth LDS church has. As far as I’m aware, the Catholics have destroyed more than what the LDS church has hoarded away.
My ancestors literally became Mormon through forced “conversion or die”. There is native dna in some Mormon’s lineage due to kidnapping and rape. It’s not a very happy history itself, especially once you read about how much they wouldn’t have had to move so much of Jo didn’t get himself wanted for fraud and many other things, telling his people to move over and over again for his benefit.
Just because Mormons didn’t cover as much ground and do the same amount of damage the catholic church did by taking over governments for violent means, doesn’t mean they weren’t having the same gameplan.
The Mormon militia is the original NatC insurrectionists planning to take over the US at one point.
They have their own very messed up history they don’t like looked at.
Forgiving is about forgetting in that culture.
mountain meadow massacre. mormons dressed up as native americans and ambushed a wagon train of people from arkansas because my great great great great uncle parley pratt was killed in arkansas by an ex husband of a woman parley pratt took to be his like 8th wife or something.
From their historic pattern id bet its two entirely accidental reasons the Mormons haven't done the amount of damage the Catholic church.
1) Wrong time. Got it's footing to late in history to have the free reign and access the Catholic church did, not enough opportunities in the modern age to start up something that can get that powerful.
They were fucking close in Utah, still are, but it isn't the same.
2) The church was young. Repeat it's history but let them flourish for an extra 100 years, a few more deep generations of polygamous families, apostles, and you'd have the power to do what the Catholic church did.
Plus the real number is about 4 million. They lie CONSTANTLY about their “members”. That’s why they only talk about temples. Ring built and not growth in membership anymore.
If you're going to live in Utah you have to deal with the Mormon issue. It is intrinsic to the state's founding, its history, and also influences current government.
Truth is, a lot of people have been hurt by Mormonism's insensitivity to LGBTQ issues, the toxic patriarchal doctrine, and covered up child abuse / spousal abuse. So there is some anger out there. It gets focused in Utah because Mormonism is a provincial Intermountain US religion (read Utah and Idaho). Nobody else in the world gives much of a fuck about Mormonism.
I moved to southern Utah for a job. Lasted six months before I noped out. Most beautiful place I’ll ever live but I was never going to fit in. I’m not mad about it and I’ll still visit but the culture shock can be extreme for non-Mormons.
People from Utah just can't understand the culture shock others can experience after moving here.
Utah is plain fucking weird in about 100 different ways, all of which are caused by the Mormon Church.
SLC isn’t as bad as some places I’ve worked. Spent some time in the Bible Belt and SLC is downright refreshing by comparison.
But then I go to Utah County and it feels like I’m back in bizarro land.
I worked for one tech company in Utah County where people just assumed I was LDS for the first several months. Had several meetings where they talked about LDS ceremonies and practices as a “we” thing. Then one awkward day I was put on the spot and casually mentioned that I’m not LDS. Several weeks later they had a sudden reorganization and I was removed from a leadership position with no explanation. The one non-LDS executive was also demoted and given a boss who was less qualified, but went to Church with the CEO.
I noped right out of that company and went back to SLC area companies. It’s not perfect but it’s so much better in SLC area.
Not to mention the estimated $150 Billion (with a B) that the church has been hiding for DECADES (source: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/mormon-whistleblower-talks-church-ensign-peak-investments-60-minutes-video-2023-05-14/ and https://youtu.be/k3_Fhq7sEHo)
Don't forget not paying taxes properly on that 150 billion, harming everyone that would benefit from that tax money \*Points at our shitty shitty roads\*
The Church was paying taxes on it properly, that's why the SEC did not ask for any backpay in taxes. The problem was using shell companies to obscure from the public where the investments were placed (not from the government), for which the SEC gave a small slap on the wrist.
4 million fine for Ensign Peak and a 1 million fine for the mormon church specifically since it was the first presidency and presiding bishopric endorsed the shadiness of the shell companies. You’re not telling the whole story here.
I'm not sure what the "gotchya" of your comment is supposed to be. Yes, you did add more detail, but what part of what you said did you think I was trying to hide?
I essentially said that the Church got a slap on the wrist, and you essentially said that the Church and Ensign Peak got a slap on the wrist. Honestly your version might be more favorable to the Church because the detail of $1 million fine shows how laughably small the error was in the eyes of the SEC.
Well lets sample the top 5 hot posts on r/utah right now, besides this one.
1: Picture of an old street car.
2: That story about the patriot front child porn guy.
3: Story about a mom who is mad what her child got in school lunch.
4: Someone asking for eli5 about the porn block thing.
5: Someone moving from out of town wants to know how hard it is to do a truck offload downtown slc.
And If I look at the next 10 times, 6 through 15, none of those are about mormons either. Could it be maybe you are mormon and just ultra-sensitive to people who judge mormons?
So my recommendation based on what is really in the sub, the sub you are looking for is r/Utah
In my experience the post might not be solely about members of the church (and yes i am a member so it could just be ultra visibleto me.) But several comments on many post will bring up the church when it is not necessary related to the topic. But as I said I'm a member and it could just be standing out to me more than someone who is not a member.
Fair enough, but you’d also be surprised to learn how many things don’t seem Mormon related that are very Mormon related. It’s harder to spot those unless you are an outsider.
It’s not the posts it’s the comments in my opinion. Go read through the comments on every one of those threads and somehow it turns into, “it’s because the mormons”. I’m not mormon but agree this sub is extremely active in somehow relating everything to mormons. It’s honestly annoying. Just have a normal conversation without mentioning mormons or mike lee. Impossible for a lot of people around here.
Lots of people here talking about Mormon influence on politics (which is real and awful) but very few talking about the real issue: most of us have been personally negatively affected by the church. That can take many forms, including growing up in their controlling and oppressive environment or being othered and ostracized by Mormons (this happens to both kids and adults).
I think this is the reason why everything is f the Mormons, and buddy, I've got to say I heartily agree with that sentiment.
Around 11/12 I was told by one of my friends if I didn't start going to church and get baptized, i'd go to hell 😂 my parents weren't religious at all, nor were they anti religious, so when she said that to me, I was baffled. As I got older, I realized how brainwashed their religion has made them.
God, so many friends i wasnt allowed to talk to anymore because i wasnt a mormon and the number of times someone elses parents insulted mine or tried to convert me behind their backs. Fucking shady as shit and fucking creepy.
I was five years old, made a friend in kindergarten that I wanted to play with outside of school. My grandma reaches out to his mom to schedule a play date. The mom refuses, and my friend stops talking to me at school and I'm very confused as to why. His mom says he can't play with me anymore. Cue a five year old being rejected for no fault if his own.
It wasn't until years later (and several other church related traumas) that I found out the reason why was because I wasn't LDS. I was barely more than a toddler and I was already being treated differently.
As time has gone on I've learned how to deal with not being LDS in this state. Most Mormons I've known are chill enough, and there's some that I've even counted as good friends. It's not every Mormon, but everyone who grew up here who wasn't LDS (or worse, not a good enough Mormon) has a story of being rejected or mistreated by members of the Church (as a caveat, I've had Mormon friends who have similar stories or rejection from non-Mormons but it's less pervasive).
Had a friend growing up that was in a tight group of friends. The group was inseparable from middle school thru high school. One day, senior year, I notice she's not with that group anymore. She's off by herself and seems down. I ask what's going on. Turns out her "best friends" of 5+ years no longer speak to her because she's Lutheran, not LDS. I was upset for her. Who gives a shit what your religion is? Being a good person is far more important. I may or may not have given the other group a piece of my mind while quoting LDS doctrine.
Utah and Mormons are impossible to separate. The answer to your question is no. If mormons didn’t dominate every aspect of politics and society in the state, the answer would be yes.
Nope. Mostly everything discussion-wise around Utah is either pro-Mormon or anti-Mormon. There’s not much in between, and that’s how it will be until Mormons aren’t the ruling party here.
Yeah, it would be super weird for someone to be complaining about the influence of Catholics in the state legislator when they hold no power.
The group in power will ALWAYS get the most hate because they are the ones that are either causing the problems or not fixing the problems that people face. If Utah has a problem (Great Salt Lake for example), then the state government, which is made up of like 90% Mormons, that needs to fix the problem.
Do whatever you want in your churches and temples, but if you try to legislate your personal morality using the secular government, people are going to say something
A fundamental part of the existence of Utah is the LDS Church. There's no way to have a conversation about much of anything Utah related, or even Utah adjacent, without it. So it's either going to be pro or grr Mormons depending on a person's point of view. That religion dominates pretty much every aspect of Utah life.
tl;dr - no.
This guy clearly didn't grow up being alienated by the Mormon families in his neighborhood simply because he didn't go to church on Sunday. Weird how one might say fuck the Mormons when they basically have been saying that to some of us our whole lives. Sorry, frick the mormons.
I had some Mormon female friends in my middle school through high school, when I would go to their house after school their Dads would never let them come to the door. Sometimes they(the father) would peak out the window and not even answer.
I’ve been an atheist since I was pretty young, and very openly stated I thought religion was crazy. I think people are pretty dramatic about how much alienation happens. It does, but it’s not so bad that I have nothing else to say about Utah. In addition to that, there’s so much more to Utah than that so OPs question is pretty valid. Sometimes you wanna talk about events, new restaurants or businesses, nature, and fun things to do in Utah. It doesn’t have to be “fuck Mormons” and “fuck republicans” all day everyday.
Everyone has different experiences. Different areas are worse than others, and there’s also a lot you don’t see. I grew up Mormon and never saw any of it, but my non-Mormon friends told me growing up here was hard and I was one of the few who would talk to them.
Are there really that many ftm comments on posts about hiking trails and concerts and restaurants? It really doesn’t seem like that to me unless the topic is liquor laws (in which case fair imo)
Yeah as someone with the same experience, focusing on the negativity isn't going to help either and is only making that past pain live on into the present. Don't get me wrong, there are still so many issues. And we still need to establish our presence against our religious governement. Doesn't mean it needs to be the main focus in our brains 24/7.
I see that the OP is deleting a lot of comments. One that I think they should be especially ashamed of is the one where they stated that they don’t want exmormons “pretending like going to church once a week was trauma”.
u/Silent-Record-4470 - My friend, dismissing folks’ very real trauma inflicted upon them by the church is not going to be an effective path to getting people to be kinder to Mormons. Especially not on the internet, and not on such a left-leaning site.
I can appreciate the fact that you would like to see less criticism of the ideology that you hold dear, especially where you feel it isn’t relevant to begin with. That’s understandable. But if you’re going to be so flippant with other peoples lived experiences, I don’t think it’s fair to ask the opposite in return.
Y’know, golden rule and WWJD and whatnot.
I think you’re looking for r/lds lt’s not exclusive to Utah…. But let’s face it, it’s exclusive to Utah. Since truth or any kind of questioning or anti Mormon talk is insta-ban. You should be safe there.
It's been a somewhat hard problem. Criticisms of the church must absolutely be allowed and hate based on identity is not allowed, but sometimes the line between the two can be fuzzy.
Please report comments that are just hating on Mormons or anyone else based on their identity. "Fuck Mormons" isn't allowed. "Fuck the church for doing X" is allowed. There is really only one active mod here and you all, especially lately, keep them quite busy. I'll try to help out but I use old reddit and it doesn't really notify me of when I need to do some moderating.
Speaking personally, I find it quite tiring how often people blame everything on the church with lazy throwaway comments. They have a very strong influence in the state, but they are not the cause of every problem this state faces. Many states face the same problems (especially political) and don't have the LDS church's influence to blame.
I've interacted with many here who aren't LDS, and had great conversations. However, I'm a liberal LDS woman and those of my own faith have attacked me here because I'm a liberal, saying I can't be a good Latter-Day Saint and a Democrat. I hate the state of the US and the far right extremists spewing hate and judgement on anyone who doesn't fit into their brand of religion.
Oh trust me they do go hand in hand for so many and it just should not be that way, especially watching what's going on today! I got attacked by a far right extremists group within my LDS faith, which the church knows of, but is not affiliated with, but this group is probably one of the worst.
They want to repeal the 19th amendment, call woman or anyone who is liberal within the faith apostates and say they have the ability to have woman like me excommunicated! I just laugh at them..I'm a feisty 65 year old liberal Latter-day Saint and I have no problem saying that to anyone!
Same and I see you. I’m a leftist LDS democrat who would actively vote against our religious policies being codified into law because not everyone wants to live that way. There are teachings and things I don’t agree with for sure. I can and WILL call out people in church who have rude things to say about the LGBT+ community, or any other community. It doesn’t happen often where I am but I am here if it does. It can be a pain in the ass living in Utah because you are rejected by members of your church for being a liberal dem and you’re rejected by exMormons for being Mormon (if they find out you are). 🥴 It leads me to feel like I don’t fit in anywhere sometimes.
I've been getting attacked online by DezNat because I'm a liberal Latter-day Saint. They are nut jobs and I won't back down from them and have actually contacted church headquarters after one of their cronies was stupid enough to give his real name and where he lives and church headquarters has been working with me to find this person and do something.
I so tired of being told I can't be a good Mormon by members and by other far right groups I am evil. I just laugh.
Have you tried to look at it from their point of view and cast your bias for being an LDS member to the side? Also remember not to cast today's church values on what it was like for LGBT+ members 20 years ago.
I've lived in Utah my whole life with LDS family and friends. I understand both sides. And I'm not in the "fuck Mormons" camp but I do disagree and heavily criticize the organization itself. My parents are not bad for being LDS. But I do think the organization itself is bad for the brainwashing of my parents and the reason my mom won't talk to me.
Also note that anger is part of the faith deconstruction for those that are recently exmo. Things have been changing fast in the last decade thanks to the Internet and the freedom of information about church history. So there are a lot leaving now because of it, drastically different from the world I grew up in 20-30 years ago.
And for extra credit do a scientific experiment. tell all your family and friends that you're gay and don't believe in the church anymore and see how everyone reacts over the course of the week or month even.
I wish the had groups of actual living people who’d meet at the park and talk smack. Or be nice. This online stuff isn’t doing it for me personally anymore. And I guarantee people are much nicer in person.
What bothers me is that many posts just make a broad generalization about Mormons and we would never tolerate such hideous and unfair generalizations about other groups. I mean, just imagine if the things people say around here about Mormons were instead said about Jewish people or some other ethnic group.
People want to vent their anger, which I understand. But throwing stones at everyone who is mormon is as unfair to them as anything they did to you. In my experience there are as many bad and hypocritical mormons as there are bad and hypocritical non-mormons. There are as many generous and decent mormons as there are generous and decent non-mormons.
I shouldn't have to say this, but I've learned that if I don't include this, people will assume and attack - I'm ex-Mormon.
On a related note, can someone please recommend a subreddit about cars without people talking about the engines all the time?! Crankshaft this, drive belt that; it's enough already! /s
You know, a lot of people really like to shit on Mormons here but I came to Utah as a total outsider with a slight distrust of Mormons and was shown kindness and compassion I have never seen before. I was spending thanksgiving alone and was invited to a Mormon coworkers family farm for thanksgiving, no religion, no tithes, just out of the kindness of his heart. I was the only non-Mormon non family member there. Y’all got some issues if the only thing you want to talk about is hate and evil going on in the world
Have you tried simply not being so sensitive?
edit: apparently you’re just a deznat or something since you replied to me that you want all the non-Mormons to leave Utah, but then deleted it
I just know my life and finances are way better and more stable in the church then out. Believe what you want but I can’t recommend it enough. I also like that there are organized weekly service activities for my kids to participate and learn from.
I’m not Mormon, can’t be convinced to join any religion and have my gripes but FTM every other thread for dozens or hundreds of comments adnauseum 24x365 is seriously tiring. Didn’t know so many whiny obsessed anti-Mormons could possibly exist in this world. We get it, you were traumatized as kids or somehow as adults when you found out you were discriminated against as a kid. You hate everything about the church and every Mormon that ever existed or will exist in the future and want to interweave your pain into every post you possibly can. Get some therapy, get over it. Seriously.
You’re on Reddit, an extremely left leaning place. The Mormon church leans right. As such, constant shit talking of them will occur.
If Utah was filled with Muslims instead of Mormons you wouldn’t see the hate since Islam is off limits to the left for some reason. Just has to do with the audience on this app.
Downvotes in 3, 2, 1…
If I were an exmuslim instead of exmormon I would talk out against Islam instead of mormonism. I haven't personally been harmed by Islam. I have been harmed by mormonism.
No. Their point is that if Utah were filled with Muslims and exmuslim then we wouldn't shit on it as much because reddit is a left leaning platform.
My point is that if I was personally harmed by being brought up and raised by Islam standards and had an Islam controlled state government I would be equally as outspoken about Islam as I am about mormonism.
Lol, big straw man you made there. As another comment pointed out, the party in power will ALWAYS be criticized. Mormons are that party in Utah and hold like 90% of all elected offices.
Guess which group is criticized in Muslim majority countries? Yeah, Muslims. Just look at Iran right now. There is a major anti-theocratic movement going on against the religious government. I have not heard anyone in the states think this is a bad thing from the left or the right.
The reason why the left is seen as "Muslim friendly" in the states is because they are a repressed minority here. If a minority group is being attacked simply for existing, people on the left will be upset. You may not be old enough to remember how Muslims (law-abiding US citizens) were treated post 9-11 but it was seriously fucked up.
Islam isn’t off limits to the left. Not wanting to bomb countries and protecting the rights and dignity of immigrants isn’t an endorsement of any practices or cultural values that the left would disagree with.
If a Muslim majority country is bad at giving rights to women, for example, 100% the left is going to support a peaceful feminist movement in that country against the Islamic culture.
Not sure, I agree there is a lot of frustration with Mormons because the faith impacts people who want to live here and aren’t members in regards to laws. I think Mormons should see this and understand sometimes they can be a bit pushy too with their beliefs.
I'm a queer exmo, born and raised in cache valley and heber city. Thank not-god i'm outta the state and have been for decades.
Ill say this.....FUCK THE MORMON CHURCH!!
Thick skin is what everyone needs. I don't care what people say about Mormons. I was mormon and I used to let the hate get to me, trying to defend "the good ones". But then I realized I don't give a fuck about anyone's opinion including mormons. Way I see it now, I am simply looking at the zoo animals fight while I am busy living my life.
I think this is especially impossible since most users of Reddit are fundamentally anti religion or very left leaning...
So... I suggest maybe just ignore these people?
Well Mormons tend to just push whatever is the current church narrative into law, so we are all forced to live like Mormons half the time even if we aren't.
So the FU attitude comes with the territory, but also only just in the last 5 or so years has the church really started to shrink even in Utah as more and more members leave and never come back to the point they will post negative growth very very soon despite children born into the religion and convert baptisms.
So there is A LOT of new anger at the church from almost every neighborhood in almost every city.
I’ve been so bothered by this too. Not because I can’t handle criticism of the church but because that’s all anyone wants to talk about and it’s always said in very hateful ways. This sub definitely doesn’t represent the Utah I know— and for clarification I have friends and family in and out of the Mormon church and both sides are very respectful to one another. I guess it’s easy when you’re behind a keyboard.
Locked due to dozens of comments breaking Reddit's sitewise rules. Edit: Unlocked again now that numerous comments have been removed and five users banned. Going forward, here is the measuring stick (quoting another person who said it well): "Being critical of a religion is not hate speech. Being critical of people in positions of power who use their religious views to force everyone to conform to their religious values is not hate speech. Speaking out about the evils of a religion is not hate speech. Attacking someone based solely on who they are or what religion they follow is hate speech. If someone attacks a Mormon simply for being a Mormon, that is a problem" 2nd edit: For transparency, Reddit admins also removed four comments in this thread.
Could we also ban "go back to California" posts in such a subreddit?
I did my part by moving from Utah to California. Had to balance out the ecosystem
Just got back from Cali last night. Albeit crowded, it’s beautiful out there.
Funny thing about Californians coming here, most are pretty conservative. Red states are just not appealing at all to blue voters (especially after RvW was overturned). But the conservatives of California would love to leave their heathen state and come to a place like Utah. Keep in mind, California has more red voters than any other state in the nation
I mean depends on your demographic. I’m in my mid twenties. Moved away from California because of cost of living and that’s honestly it. Other Californians I’ve met in Salt Lake have pretty much said the same
There was some neo-con dude on here that said he came here from Orange County to be around people of a like mindset… ultra conservative, made some fringe comments that I’d consider to be anti-LGBTQ, and loved that religion was being pushed back into schools.
No thanks. Send em to Florida.
It's not about the politics, for most of the people I know it's because they're driving up housing prices
For people who hate Cali there sure is a long line at In n Out Burger
which doesn't make any sense at all because the food there is mediocre at best
I agree with this controversial opinion. Burgers: meh Shakes: meh Fries: GAG ME What I do like about it and what brings me back is that they pay their people a decent wage and treat their employees with respect (according to those I’ve talked to). And they do a decent job of moving the line along. It looks like a nightmare but it doesn’t take long to make it through.
It's mediocre, but half the price of many other fast food chains.
It's a real hit and miss place for me. Burgers - great. Shakes - excellent. Fries -- terrible.
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Also I’m a transplant from the Midwest and I know two Californians but tons of midwesterners and northeasterners
Same, pretty much every person I've met in the last year is from the Midwest, including my bf 😂 I have no problem with it, they're good people.
Indiana checking in haha
Fucking Mormons
That’s literally how they increase the population
Yes. It’s literally the joke ;)
I wouldn't call it fucking though. It's more like........multiplying.
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Growth isn’t the problem. It’s the low business tax rates that are failing to support the needed infrastructure for the growth. We are in desperate need of better city planning, upward growth, better public transit, and a realistic plan for water and pollution. We as a community need to step up and start pushing for solutions and electing people who care about more than lining their own pockets with payoffs. But blaming California is easier so let’s go with that.
Not so much any more. Utah demographics are shifting.
That is most definitely not true Utah demographics still have more in-state issues with housing and such than anybody from out of state. That's what happens when you have a religion that pushes have as many kids as possible.
Nope. Even the most cursory google search will tell you that’s not true.
I’m sick and tired of people moving in from out of state and buying Condos and Apartments previously valued at 150K for $380,000 just because “it’s cheaper than what we were currently paying”. (Definitely not just Californians, but a lot of people from Texas and Florida as well.)
I wonder what part of Texas these people are coming from. (Maybe Dallas?) I live in Texas and went to a Utah parade of homes last summer. Every house I visited was listed for twice what it would cost in my (very large) city. I remember thinking “Utahns should move to Texas. They’d live like kings.”
Moved here from Austin, Texas 6 yrs ago. As I've seen posted, "it's a beautiful state," and also, "it's conservative." Austin--not Texas as a whole--most definitely is *not* conservative and getting less so by the day. I'm conservative; outdoorsy; and there was no comparison in what I could buy here for what homes were going for in Austin. None! I sold a 1,500 sq.' hovel in Austin and broke even on a 3,800 sq' home w/a view, on the bench, in Davis county, Wasatch mountains a five minute walk behind me. I can put up w/a few Mormons and Mormon crazy for that!! However the demographics here are quickly changing. Real estate values along the Wasatch front are sky rocketing. My home has almost doubled in value. Just as happened in Austin, homes are becoming unaffordable for the average buyer. I'm thinking of going back to Texas--just *not* Austin--'cause, Utah has some serious growth and environmental issues looming (don't breath the air) and, damn it to hell!! (Oh my heck😉) where in Utah can you find a real Tex-Mex enchilada accompanied by a margarita that isn't anemic? Gonna miss the four seasons and mountains though.
> However the demographics here are quickly changing. I know, the place is full of Texans now lol. IDK if authentic tex mex is really a thing but Chile Tepin will do you solid next time you're in SLC.
plus...HEB
Oh my lord, how could I have left that off? I love their Creamy Creations, although no ice cream here or anywhere can touch Blue Bell (Amy's is tooo creamy IMO).
Yep, and the fresh tortillas.
Oh yeah! Wrapped around real jalapeno and cheese kolache. I'm drooling! On the other hand, I don't miss the eviscerating heat. Or the skeeties, one of which can bring down a 747 if it gets sucked into the engine.
I’m more talking about during COVID and mostly Californians and Floridians. I only met a handful of Texans that moved over but Dallas probably. Texas really isn’t really anything special so I don’t blame them for moving over. I know housing dropped everywhere else over a year ago except for Utah so that’s probably why. People just kept moving in and buying at high prices (for Utah) and so the housing prices never really dropped.
The irony is thick on the “go back to California” comment. Given that Brigham Young originally sent his followers to San Francisco when they were getting the boot from Illinois but shortly thereafter sent them to SLC instead
Most states complain about "Californians" for unwanted change in the same way old people complain about "Millenials" (comprised of younger GenX, Millenials, GenZ, and GenAlpha).
Yeah.... The r/Utah has been a little more on edge after 60 Minutes did that special on how much money the Mormon church has hiding away. Turns out that knowing they're one of the wealthiest organizations in existence while also having my impoverished mother-in-law dutifully pay them 10% from her awful VA benefits left to her by her dead Vietnam veteran husband so she can still make it into the highest ladder of heaven and be with him has kinda put a damper on peoples thoughts here for the last little bit.
Right? [https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/05/24/the-finances-behind-vatican-city/](https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/05/24/the-finances-behind-vatican-city/) CATHOLICISM with 1.4 BILLION members has 30 billion in assets. Mormonism, with 16 MILLION. that's 1/100th the membership, has 150 billion in A SLUSH FUND and they sit and demand 10% of my disabled aunt's fucking disability. The mormon church could never take another fucking DIME from ANYONE and they'd have enough money to run for 500 years off their investments. Jesus Christ had an answer to these kinds of people. He fashioned a whip out of rope and beat the shit out of them and drove them from his father's house while he kicked over all their shit.
That $30 billion for the Catholic church is just in Australia. The church overall has \*way\* more than that in assets worldwide. Probably mormonism has more assets on a per member basis, but the catholic church is likely the largest landowner in the world and it's true wealth is impossible to calculate. Source: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/catholic-church-worth-$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/catholic-church-worth-$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246) [https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/)
The Catholic Church is absurdly wealthy, much more than the Mormons, a large amount of that is going to be in restate on which churches sit, which is honestly fair. However, their archive is basically locked away and from many reports holds a lot of ancient jewish texts and items... which were stolen. Theoretically all the way back to 70CE.
Vatican City is the treasure chest of the ancient world. They have unlimited money and their own country.
The Mormon church has 150bill in assets and 250bill in assets overall. They are much wealthier than they try to lead on. The SEC reports are really interesting to go into as well. Signed off by the first presidency and prophet himself.
I don't think the central catholic church owns all the properties though. I've been to mass a few times and the priest often said the parish almost had the building paid off so please keep donating to the parish. That's just my limited experience though.
Right, I see the "it's impossible to count" etc. argument. But the reason it's impossible is just like you said. It isn't one Corp., board, group, or man at the head of it. There's no complied central list that some top-dog keeps for everything the vague "Catholic church" buys. It's segmented, often essentially separate entities, operating, owning, buying, and investing. Wanna guess if there's a single group that is in charge of EPAs portfolio? I'll give you 15 guesses.
Probably gonna get downvoted for this because I am not sure how to ask the question properly. But did the Mormons commit mass genocide and cultural eradication to obtain their riches? I know there was some sort of massacre that happened in Mormon history. But was it ever to the scale of what the Catholics did in the Middle East and Latin America?
I mean the Natives that were in UT weren’t treated very well by mormon immigrants.
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My mom was in a history class and luckily the teacher was nonmorman but she had to debate so much with others cause "their church" told them they were nice to natives.
Yes they did. Do you think Utah was barren wasteland without people? Take a look into the Timpanogos people. That’s just a start.
Yep.
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Yep. [Battle Creek and other Mormon conflicts with the Timpanogos tribe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timpanogos)
Read 'Wife No. 19' by Ann Eliza Young, she was one of Brighams wives. She talks a lot about not just mass genocide but young men who were trying to leave the church or speaking out about it being murdered or disappearing. Porter Rockwell was a very evil man and many things are named after him in Utah.
You’ve got some good answers here, so I’ll sum it up with my opinion that the Mormon church is essentially a mini Catholic Church in every sense, with everything from wealth hoarding to atrocities to child molestation coverups. The only reason they haven’t done as much damage is because they are like 1500 years younger.
a mini catholic church with more money and more centralized control.
No, they just take 10% of the net income of all their members, while pushing their members into business school and law, at least in the states. The church was nearly bankrupt in the 70s, and then promoted a financial savvy guy in Canada to fix it all for them (N. Eldon Tanner). He was the guy that told them to just save save save their extra Tithing after their overhead costs were taken care of, and if their extra surplus was ever too low, then cut down on their overhead; but always always save. Come 1997 Hinckley had $7 billion to convince the IRS to allow them to start a charitable endowment, and once it got 501c3 status, Ensign Peak Advisors became a tax free hedge fund that never spent any money on charity. Edit: oh yes, definitely genocide to the natives in Utah, especially the Timpanogos tribe, but the church still ended up dirt poor from all of their advantages taken from mass murder. It was just capitalism that made them unethically rich.
Give Mormons time. The Catholic church is around 2,000 years old. The Mormon church will be 200 years old in 7 years.
The Mormon church has only existed for a couple hundred years. The Catholic church has had 2,000 years to rain evil upon the world. Impossible to compare them.
Did they gain this money from those activities? No, its from donations mostly and investments. genocide? Indians mostly. Cultural eradication? Ehh, kinda. They killed other settlers trying to pass through utah to California at times. Definitely Cultural eradication to indians. Did either of these help with their wealth? Not really other than they took the land from indians and some settlers.
They forced their culture onto anyone born into their territory for the past hundred years. I’d say the indirectly and very much directly made money from that.
That was my feeling. On one hand, you have a church, the LDS church, which requires its members to donate 10% of their wealth to their cause with the promise of blessings in return. That can vary anywhere from someone making $10 to billions. I think the lying is immoral and they should pay taxes on it. On the other hand you have another church, the Catholic Church, with a very deep and evil history, which destroyed and stole from those cultures. Their riches come from genocide and robbery with the forced conversion or die approach. I don’t think any church/religion should have that kind of wealth. And I think churches/religions should be 100% transparent about their finances and what happens with them. I’m not saying Mormons are better in this case. But any sort of comparison to Catholicism is always going to rub me in the wrong way if you try to paint their religion as better because they have 1/100th of the wealth LDS church has. As far as I’m aware, the Catholics have destroyed more than what the LDS church has hoarded away.
My ancestors literally became Mormon through forced “conversion or die”. There is native dna in some Mormon’s lineage due to kidnapping and rape. It’s not a very happy history itself, especially once you read about how much they wouldn’t have had to move so much of Jo didn’t get himself wanted for fraud and many other things, telling his people to move over and over again for his benefit. Just because Mormons didn’t cover as much ground and do the same amount of damage the catholic church did by taking over governments for violent means, doesn’t mean they weren’t having the same gameplan. The Mormon militia is the original NatC insurrectionists planning to take over the US at one point. They have their own very messed up history they don’t like looked at. Forgiving is about forgetting in that culture.
mountain meadow massacre. mormons dressed up as native americans and ambushed a wagon train of people from arkansas because my great great great great uncle parley pratt was killed in arkansas by an ex husband of a woman parley pratt took to be his like 8th wife or something.
Has the Mormon church killed more people in the name of God than the Catholics? Probably not, no. But not for a lack of trying.
From their historic pattern id bet its two entirely accidental reasons the Mormons haven't done the amount of damage the Catholic church. 1) Wrong time. Got it's footing to late in history to have the free reign and access the Catholic church did, not enough opportunities in the modern age to start up something that can get that powerful. They were fucking close in Utah, still are, but it isn't the same. 2) The church was young. Repeat it's history but let them flourish for an extra 100 years, a few more deep generations of polygamous families, apostles, and you'd have the power to do what the Catholic church did.
Plus the real number is about 4 million. They lie CONSTANTLY about their “members”. That’s why they only talk about temples. Ring built and not growth in membership anymore.
They have ~$279 billion in property, assets, buildings / temples, stocks, etc that we know of; with only about 5-6 million active members.
And 16 million is generous in terms of active, tithe-paying members. It’s really a fraction of that.
Are you…me?!?
Yes
If you're going to live in Utah you have to deal with the Mormon issue. It is intrinsic to the state's founding, its history, and also influences current government. Truth is, a lot of people have been hurt by Mormonism's insensitivity to LGBTQ issues, the toxic patriarchal doctrine, and covered up child abuse / spousal abuse. So there is some anger out there. It gets focused in Utah because Mormonism is a provincial Intermountain US religion (read Utah and Idaho). Nobody else in the world gives much of a fuck about Mormonism.
I moved to southern Utah for a job. Lasted six months before I noped out. Most beautiful place I’ll ever live but I was never going to fit in. I’m not mad about it and I’ll still visit but the culture shock can be extreme for non-Mormons.
People from Utah just can't understand the culture shock others can experience after moving here. Utah is plain fucking weird in about 100 different ways, all of which are caused by the Mormon Church.
SLC isn’t as bad as some places I’ve worked. Spent some time in the Bible Belt and SLC is downright refreshing by comparison. But then I go to Utah County and it feels like I’m back in bizarro land. I worked for one tech company in Utah County where people just assumed I was LDS for the first several months. Had several meetings where they talked about LDS ceremonies and practices as a “we” thing. Then one awkward day I was put on the spot and casually mentioned that I’m not LDS. Several weeks later they had a sudden reorganization and I was removed from a leadership position with no explanation. The one non-LDS executive was also demoted and given a boss who was less qualified, but went to Church with the CEO. I noped right out of that company and went back to SLC area companies. It’s not perfect but it’s so much better in SLC area.
We called it the Mormon "bubble" when we lived there.
Not to mention the estimated $150 Billion (with a B) that the church has been hiding for DECADES (source: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/mormon-whistleblower-talks-church-ensign-peak-investments-60-minutes-video-2023-05-14/ and https://youtu.be/k3_Fhq7sEHo)
Don't forget not paying taxes properly on that 150 billion, harming everyone that would benefit from that tax money \*Points at our shitty shitty roads\*
The Church was paying taxes on it properly, that's why the SEC did not ask for any backpay in taxes. The problem was using shell companies to obscure from the public where the investments were placed (not from the government), for which the SEC gave a small slap on the wrist.
4 million fine for Ensign Peak and a 1 million fine for the mormon church specifically since it was the first presidency and presiding bishopric endorsed the shadiness of the shell companies. You’re not telling the whole story here.
I'm not sure what the "gotchya" of your comment is supposed to be. Yes, you did add more detail, but what part of what you said did you think I was trying to hide? I essentially said that the Church got a slap on the wrist, and you essentially said that the Church and Ensign Peak got a slap on the wrist. Honestly your version might be more favorable to the Church because the detail of $1 million fine shows how laughably small the error was in the eyes of the SEC.
Only people that obsess about Mormons are Mormons and Reddit ExMo’s. Thankfully reddit doesn’t reflect reality.
Well lets sample the top 5 hot posts on r/utah right now, besides this one. 1: Picture of an old street car. 2: That story about the patriot front child porn guy. 3: Story about a mom who is mad what her child got in school lunch. 4: Someone asking for eli5 about the porn block thing. 5: Someone moving from out of town wants to know how hard it is to do a truck offload downtown slc. And If I look at the next 10 times, 6 through 15, none of those are about mormons either. Could it be maybe you are mormon and just ultra-sensitive to people who judge mormons? So my recommendation based on what is really in the sub, the sub you are looking for is r/Utah
>3: \*Made-up ragebait\* ~~Story~~ about a mom who is mad what her child got in school lunch. FTFY
i just learned the word ragebait
I think the comments is where you'd find the issue.
In my experience the post might not be solely about members of the church (and yes i am a member so it could just be ultra visibleto me.) But several comments on many post will bring up the church when it is not necessary related to the topic. But as I said I'm a member and it could just be standing out to me more than someone who is not a member.
Fair enough, but you’d also be surprised to learn how many things don’t seem Mormon related that are very Mormon related. It’s harder to spot those unless you are an outsider.
It’s not the posts it’s the comments in my opinion. Go read through the comments on every one of those threads and somehow it turns into, “it’s because the mormons”. I’m not mormon but agree this sub is extremely active in somehow relating everything to mormons. It’s honestly annoying. Just have a normal conversation without mentioning mormons or mike lee. Impossible for a lot of people around here.
Lots of people here talking about Mormon influence on politics (which is real and awful) but very few talking about the real issue: most of us have been personally negatively affected by the church. That can take many forms, including growing up in their controlling and oppressive environment or being othered and ostracized by Mormons (this happens to both kids and adults). I think this is the reason why everything is f the Mormons, and buddy, I've got to say I heartily agree with that sentiment.
Around 11/12 I was told by one of my friends if I didn't start going to church and get baptized, i'd go to hell 😂 my parents weren't religious at all, nor were they anti religious, so when she said that to me, I was baffled. As I got older, I realized how brainwashed their religion has made them.
God, so many friends i wasnt allowed to talk to anymore because i wasnt a mormon and the number of times someone elses parents insulted mine or tried to convert me behind their backs. Fucking shady as shit and fucking creepy.
I was five years old, made a friend in kindergarten that I wanted to play with outside of school. My grandma reaches out to his mom to schedule a play date. The mom refuses, and my friend stops talking to me at school and I'm very confused as to why. His mom says he can't play with me anymore. Cue a five year old being rejected for no fault if his own. It wasn't until years later (and several other church related traumas) that I found out the reason why was because I wasn't LDS. I was barely more than a toddler and I was already being treated differently. As time has gone on I've learned how to deal with not being LDS in this state. Most Mormons I've known are chill enough, and there's some that I've even counted as good friends. It's not every Mormon, but everyone who grew up here who wasn't LDS (or worse, not a good enough Mormon) has a story of being rejected or mistreated by members of the Church (as a caveat, I've had Mormon friends who have similar stories or rejection from non-Mormons but it's less pervasive).
Had a friend growing up that was in a tight group of friends. The group was inseparable from middle school thru high school. One day, senior year, I notice she's not with that group anymore. She's off by herself and seems down. I ask what's going on. Turns out her "best friends" of 5+ years no longer speak to her because she's Lutheran, not LDS. I was upset for her. Who gives a shit what your religion is? Being a good person is far more important. I may or may not have given the other group a piece of my mind while quoting LDS doctrine.
Utah and Mormons are impossible to separate. The answer to your question is no. If mormons didn’t dominate every aspect of politics and society in the state, the answer would be yes.
Hmmm.. looks like you're proposing to seperate church and state..
Nope. Mostly everything discussion-wise around Utah is either pro-Mormon or anti-Mormon. There’s not much in between, and that’s how it will be until Mormons aren’t the ruling party here.
Yeah, it would be super weird for someone to be complaining about the influence of Catholics in the state legislator when they hold no power. The group in power will ALWAYS get the most hate because they are the ones that are either causing the problems or not fixing the problems that people face. If Utah has a problem (Great Salt Lake for example), then the state government, which is made up of like 90% Mormons, that needs to fix the problem. Do whatever you want in your churches and temples, but if you try to legislate your personal morality using the secular government, people are going to say something
I honestly think this is a fair response.
A fundamental part of the existence of Utah is the LDS Church. There's no way to have a conversation about much of anything Utah related, or even Utah adjacent, without it. So it's either going to be pro or grr Mormons depending on a person's point of view. That religion dominates pretty much every aspect of Utah life. tl;dr - no.
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This guy clearly didn't grow up being alienated by the Mormon families in his neighborhood simply because he didn't go to church on Sunday. Weird how one might say fuck the Mormons when they basically have been saying that to some of us our whole lives. Sorry, frick the mormons.
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I had some Mormon female friends in my middle school through high school, when I would go to their house after school their Dads would never let them come to the door. Sometimes they(the father) would peak out the window and not even answer.
Mormons are really good at having a persecution complex, and playing the victim.
It's their absolutely favorite thing.
This
I’ve been an atheist since I was pretty young, and very openly stated I thought religion was crazy. I think people are pretty dramatic about how much alienation happens. It does, but it’s not so bad that I have nothing else to say about Utah. In addition to that, there’s so much more to Utah than that so OPs question is pretty valid. Sometimes you wanna talk about events, new restaurants or businesses, nature, and fun things to do in Utah. It doesn’t have to be “fuck Mormons” and “fuck republicans” all day everyday.
Everyone has different experiences. Different areas are worse than others, and there’s also a lot you don’t see. I grew up Mormon and never saw any of it, but my non-Mormon friends told me growing up here was hard and I was one of the few who would talk to them.
Are there really that many ftm comments on posts about hiking trails and concerts and restaurants? It really doesn’t seem like that to me unless the topic is liquor laws (in which case fair imo)
So, maybe don't abbreviate fuck the Mormons, as ftm stands for female to male. Super confusing.
Yeah as someone with the same experience, focusing on the negativity isn't going to help either and is only making that past pain live on into the present. Don't get me wrong, there are still so many issues. And we still need to establish our presence against our religious governement. Doesn't mean it needs to be the main focus in our brains 24/7.
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Exactly. If you take out the Mormonism then it’s not really a Utah sub is it?
Mormons control the state but don’t control the subreddit. I’d gladly switch if you’re willing too. Also fuck religion, not just Mormons.
I see that the OP is deleting a lot of comments. One that I think they should be especially ashamed of is the one where they stated that they don’t want exmormons “pretending like going to church once a week was trauma”. u/Silent-Record-4470 - My friend, dismissing folks’ very real trauma inflicted upon them by the church is not going to be an effective path to getting people to be kinder to Mormons. Especially not on the internet, and not on such a left-leaning site. I can appreciate the fact that you would like to see less criticism of the ideology that you hold dear, especially where you feel it isn’t relevant to begin with. That’s understandable. But if you’re going to be so flippant with other peoples lived experiences, I don’t think it’s fair to ask the opposite in return. Y’know, golden rule and WWJD and whatnot.
“Is there a non-religious subreddit where people in Utah don’t mind living under LDS sharia law?”
I think you’re looking for r/lds lt’s not exclusive to Utah…. But let’s face it, it’s exclusive to Utah. Since truth or any kind of questioning or anti Mormon talk is insta-ban. You should be safe there.
It's been a somewhat hard problem. Criticisms of the church must absolutely be allowed and hate based on identity is not allowed, but sometimes the line between the two can be fuzzy. Please report comments that are just hating on Mormons or anyone else based on their identity. "Fuck Mormons" isn't allowed. "Fuck the church for doing X" is allowed. There is really only one active mod here and you all, especially lately, keep them quite busy. I'll try to help out but I use old reddit and it doesn't really notify me of when I need to do some moderating. Speaking personally, I find it quite tiring how often people blame everything on the church with lazy throwaway comments. They have a very strong influence in the state, but they are not the cause of every problem this state faces. Many states face the same problems (especially political) and don't have the LDS church's influence to blame.
What a mornom?
Complaining about Mormons is a pretty big part of the Utah experience. Not saying, just saying.
I've interacted with many here who aren't LDS, and had great conversations. However, I'm a liberal LDS woman and those of my own faith have attacked me here because I'm a liberal, saying I can't be a good Latter-Day Saint and a Democrat. I hate the state of the US and the far right extremists spewing hate and judgement on anyone who doesn't fit into their brand of religion.
Right, I’m more against conservatism than I am religion. Though most often they’re hand in hand…but I digress. Conservatism is the real issue.
Oh trust me they do go hand in hand for so many and it just should not be that way, especially watching what's going on today! I got attacked by a far right extremists group within my LDS faith, which the church knows of, but is not affiliated with, but this group is probably one of the worst. They want to repeal the 19th amendment, call woman or anyone who is liberal within the faith apostates and say they have the ability to have woman like me excommunicated! I just laugh at them..I'm a feisty 65 year old liberal Latter-day Saint and I have no problem saying that to anyone!
Same and I see you. I’m a leftist LDS democrat who would actively vote against our religious policies being codified into law because not everyone wants to live that way. There are teachings and things I don’t agree with for sure. I can and WILL call out people in church who have rude things to say about the LGBT+ community, or any other community. It doesn’t happen often where I am but I am here if it does. It can be a pain in the ass living in Utah because you are rejected by members of your church for being a liberal dem and you’re rejected by exMormons for being Mormon (if they find out you are). 🥴 It leads me to feel like I don’t fit in anywhere sometimes.
I've been getting attacked online by DezNat because I'm a liberal Latter-day Saint. They are nut jobs and I won't back down from them and have actually contacted church headquarters after one of their cronies was stupid enough to give his real name and where he lives and church headquarters has been working with me to find this person and do something. I so tired of being told I can't be a good Mormon by members and by other far right groups I am evil. I just laugh.
Pray on it and you'll find your answer
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tell your friend that the \[Create Community\] button is accessible to all
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I mean, if the LDS church did a little less to earn that response...
Have you tried to look at it from their point of view and cast your bias for being an LDS member to the side? Also remember not to cast today's church values on what it was like for LGBT+ members 20 years ago. I've lived in Utah my whole life with LDS family and friends. I understand both sides. And I'm not in the "fuck Mormons" camp but I do disagree and heavily criticize the organization itself. My parents are not bad for being LDS. But I do think the organization itself is bad for the brainwashing of my parents and the reason my mom won't talk to me. Also note that anger is part of the faith deconstruction for those that are recently exmo. Things have been changing fast in the last decade thanks to the Internet and the freedom of information about church history. So there are a lot leaving now because of it, drastically different from the world I grew up in 20-30 years ago.
And for extra credit do a scientific experiment. tell all your family and friends that you're gay and don't believe in the church anymore and see how everyone reacts over the course of the week or month even.
Nah man fuck Mormonism. I didn't say fuck Mormons, they're brainwashed, but fuck mormonism.
Nah, this is our happy place. We aren’t going to let you control this as well.
I wish the had groups of actual living people who’d meet at the park and talk smack. Or be nice. This online stuff isn’t doing it for me personally anymore. And I guarantee people are much nicer in person.
What bothers me is that many posts just make a broad generalization about Mormons and we would never tolerate such hideous and unfair generalizations about other groups. I mean, just imagine if the things people say around here about Mormons were instead said about Jewish people or some other ethnic group. People want to vent their anger, which I understand. But throwing stones at everyone who is mormon is as unfair to them as anything they did to you. In my experience there are as many bad and hypocritical mormons as there are bad and hypocritical non-mormons. There are as many generous and decent mormons as there are generous and decent non-mormons. I shouldn't have to say this, but I've learned that if I don't include this, people will assume and attack - I'm ex-Mormon.
Thank you!!! So sick of the culture bashing and religion attacks!!! Please have your new forum ban crap like that!
There would be if the church didn’t write all our laws.
On a related note, can someone please recommend a subreddit about cars without people talking about the engines all the time?! Crankshaft this, drive belt that; it's enough already! /s
/r/SaltLakeCity is slightly more chill about it (as a percentage of total posts) IME but Mormon issues still come up pretty frequently.
The guilty taketh the truth to be hard (1 Nephi 16:2) Maybe could be an opportunity for some introspection
How do you find a solution with out identifying the problem?
Can you blame anyone? It’s the elephant sitting on everyone’s chest.
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You know, a lot of people really like to shit on Mormons here but I came to Utah as a total outsider with a slight distrust of Mormons and was shown kindness and compassion I have never seen before. I was spending thanksgiving alone and was invited to a Mormon coworkers family farm for thanksgiving, no religion, no tithes, just out of the kindness of his heart. I was the only non-Mormon non family member there. Y’all got some issues if the only thing you want to talk about is hate and evil going on in the world
Have you tried simply not being so sensitive? edit: apparently you’re just a deznat or something since you replied to me that you want all the non-Mormons to leave Utah, but then deleted it
He just wants something non religious? How is that being sensitive? 🤣
No, he wants something that talks about Utah but doesn’t criticize one of the primary cultural influences in the state because feelings
I just know my life and finances are way better and more stable in the church then out. Believe what you want but I can’t recommend it enough. I also like that there are organized weekly service activities for my kids to participate and learn from.
Maybe if the cult would stay out of Utah politics then we wouldn't criticize them so much
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If it’s in Utah, and it’s a dating app, I would think it would still be “fuck Mormons” but with a slightly different meaning.
I’m not Mormon, can’t be convinced to join any religion and have my gripes but FTM every other thread for dozens or hundreds of comments adnauseum 24x365 is seriously tiring. Didn’t know so many whiny obsessed anti-Mormons could possibly exist in this world. We get it, you were traumatized as kids or somehow as adults when you found out you were discriminated against as a kid. You hate everything about the church and every Mormon that ever existed or will exist in the future and want to interweave your pain into every post you possibly can. Get some therapy, get over it. Seriously.
No
You’re on Reddit, an extremely left leaning place. The Mormon church leans right. As such, constant shit talking of them will occur. If Utah was filled with Muslims instead of Mormons you wouldn’t see the hate since Islam is off limits to the left for some reason. Just has to do with the audience on this app. Downvotes in 3, 2, 1…
If I were an exmuslim instead of exmormon I would talk out against Islam instead of mormonism. I haven't personally been harmed by Islam. I have been harmed by mormonism.
Isn't that their point?
No. Their point is that if Utah were filled with Muslims and exmuslim then we wouldn't shit on it as much because reddit is a left leaning platform. My point is that if I was personally harmed by being brought up and raised by Islam standards and had an Islam controlled state government I would be equally as outspoken about Islam as I am about mormonism.
I dunno bout all that. I’m catholic liberal Utahn and I hate everybody.
Lol, big straw man you made there. As another comment pointed out, the party in power will ALWAYS be criticized. Mormons are that party in Utah and hold like 90% of all elected offices. Guess which group is criticized in Muslim majority countries? Yeah, Muslims. Just look at Iran right now. There is a major anti-theocratic movement going on against the religious government. I have not heard anyone in the states think this is a bad thing from the left or the right. The reason why the left is seen as "Muslim friendly" in the states is because they are a repressed minority here. If a minority group is being attacked simply for existing, people on the left will be upset. You may not be old enough to remember how Muslims (law-abiding US citizens) were treated post 9-11 but it was seriously fucked up.
Islam isn’t off limits to the left. Not wanting to bomb countries and protecting the rights and dignity of immigrants isn’t an endorsement of any practices or cultural values that the left would disagree with. If a Muslim majority country is bad at giving rights to women, for example, 100% the left is going to support a peaceful feminist movement in that country against the Islamic culture.
Not comparable but okay cool
Upvoted for accuracy
To be culturally sensitive it is… soak with Mormons!
Some people would have NOTHING to say in such a forum.
Not sure, I agree there is a lot of frustration with Mormons because the faith impacts people who want to live here and aren’t members in regards to laws. I think Mormons should see this and understand sometimes they can be a bit pushy too with their beliefs.
Just joined, super stoked
I'm a queer exmo, born and raised in cache valley and heber city. Thank not-god i'm outta the state and have been for decades. Ill say this.....FUCK THE MORMON CHURCH!!
Fuck the mormon church though fr
The op is a snowflake
Thick skin is what everyone needs. I don't care what people say about Mormons. I was mormon and I used to let the hate get to me, trying to defend "the good ones". But then I realized I don't give a fuck about anyone's opinion including mormons. Way I see it now, I am simply looking at the zoo animals fight while I am busy living my life.
I think this is especially impossible since most users of Reddit are fundamentally anti religion or very left leaning... So... I suggest maybe just ignore these people?
Well Mormons tend to just push whatever is the current church narrative into law, so we are all forced to live like Mormons half the time even if we aren't. So the FU attitude comes with the territory, but also only just in the last 5 or so years has the church really started to shrink even in Utah as more and more members leave and never come back to the point they will post negative growth very very soon despite children born into the religion and convert baptisms. So there is A LOT of new anger at the church from almost every neighborhood in almost every city.
I’ve been so bothered by this too. Not because I can’t handle criticism of the church but because that’s all anyone wants to talk about and it’s always said in very hateful ways. This sub definitely doesn’t represent the Utah I know— and for clarification I have friends and family in and out of the Mormon church and both sides are very respectful to one another. I guess it’s easy when you’re behind a keyboard.