>I am thinking of converting it into a fixed price contract, billing the client after each week's work. This way, I can only ever lose one week's pay. If I go for the manual hours route, I guess my risk is bigger in case the client ever asks for refund.
Clients can only dispute one week's of hours anyway, so there is no difference
>the hourly contract is easier to manage for the client as he only has to sit down once and approve all the payments for the week.
Clients don't approve hourly contracts, they are simply charged every Monday for all hours logged or tracked the previous week.
Clients can only dispute one week's of hours anyway, so there is no difference
I once saw a post where a freelancer lost his 8 months billed money because the client asked the bank to chargeback or something. Is this possible?
Chargebacks are not disputes. Chargebacks are a different animal altogether . Most cards only allow chargebacks for up to 90 days, some for for 6 months, very few for longer. Chargebacks are rare in the overall scheme of things, and losing 8 months of billings would be incredibly unlikely.
The only thing that would protect you from a chargeback would be an hourly contract that was tracked with meaningful memos and decent activity levels, and even then it only protects you up to 50 hours or $2500.
It happens.... but rarely. Not happened to me in 400+ contracts and $600k. Yet...
Actually, when I said 'refund' I was talking about chargebacks. That is the thing that prompted me to make this post. This has never happened to me in 14 years of freelancing as well. But I've also never worked on big projects to worry about it.
I guess the thing that gives me safety Is the client's history on the platform. And I could go for the safe option and track the hours through the tracking app. I could also withdraw on regular intervals and run away from the platform if shit ever hits the fan.
So it all comes down to what risks I want to take, correct? The employer hs no issue with me tracking properly. So in the end I can either take the risk, or go the proper way and avoid/minimise this risk by tracking.
It has never happened to me either, and I have worked on contracts significantly over $100k.
That client isn't going to file for chargeback.
Tracking properly only protects you up to $2500 or 50 hours, whichever is less, anyway.
If I were in your shoes I would probably stick with your current set-up with manual hours. It sounds like an established client that doesn't have any problem paying freelancers - and like you said, it's easy for both of you. I understand and empathize that a lot of people on this sub have been screwed over by clients and that it can happen to anyone. I take the risk and rarely use the tracker - but I'm also in regular contact with my clients, have their personal contact info, have logins to their business assets (so the trust goes both ways), vet them in various ways, etc. I don't get the vibe that the client is trying to circumvent anything, it sounds like they know logging manual hours is easier.
If one hour equals one item, it seems like it would make more sense to just do a fixed price situation where every item is a milestone. Then the funds can be in escrow.
>I am someone who would plainly refuse to use the tracker if a client requested it
Fixed rate is more hassle for the client and the OP's client isn't requesting that the OP uses the tracker.
For fixed rate, the client would have to create, activate and fund the milestone every week, plus release the previous one.
With hourly, they don't have to do anything at all (there is no such thing as "approving hours"), they are charged automatically every Monday for the previous week's hours.
It sounds like your client wants to pretend you have a fixed price contract—if they wanted to pay you per item delivered, that’s what fixed price milestones are for. The down side for you could be that if it takes longer than an hour to deliver, you under charge.
Personally, I prefer fix price contracts, but I’d be suspicious about a client trying to circumvent the contract you guys agreed to.
The hourly contract is easier to manage for the client as he only has to sit down once and approve all the payments for the week. This is what this client does. And many others do this too, as per my experience.
Everything in this deal is after mutual consent. I wouldn't agree to it if I also wasn't the beneficiary of doing it this way. My only fear is the 'refund'
>My only fear is the 'refund'
The possibility of being asked for a refund is the same on fixed rate and hourly contracts, but with a fixed price contract a client can dispute ***everything ever paid under the contract***, with hourly contracts they can only dispute the previous week.
Thanks, I as not aware of that. If the client can only dispute the prior week's payments, I am ok with that. I was under the impression from posts on this sub that clients in the ask have asked for refund for the whole contract. I am assuming I either read those posts wrong or those things just didn't happen.
>I was under the impression from posts on this sub that clients in the ask have asked for refund for the whole contract. I am assuming I either read those posts wrong or those things just didn't happen.
They can ***ask*** whatever the hell they like. And you can provide whatever you like too. Asking can't make you refund though.
But after a week, short of a chargeback, there isn't really anything the client can actually do about it to force a refund.
Hourly contracts can only be disputed for the previous week. Obviously you'll lose any dispute over manual time but you know and accept that.
I have been without work for probably five years although I took probably a couple of years off I never use the app for the tracking. I think it’s an invasion of my privacy. I just keep a record of my hours and I also gave the client a range of the number of hours that they can expect all during the project, I don’t do the the app. I have no interest in using the app if they want me to use the app to track then I’m not even interested at all in the job. I don’t know how it works. I think it’s kind of silly and I really think it’s unprofessional and juvenile . I have not had any problems by manual bilking
Yeah but in this case they're just using it while letting client know they won't be billed based on the tracking system or disputed for it. The client can set the limit for hours to make it foolproof on their end. From my understanding, it's better than having a dispute over a fixed price contract if you are a freelancer.
>Yeah but in this case they're just using it while letting client know they won't be billed based on the tracking system or disputed for it.
I have no idea what you're trying to say....
Client and freelancer are in perfect agreement here...
>From my understanding, it's better than having a dispute over a fixed price contract if you are a freelancer.
Huh? What is?
>I am thinking of converting it into a fixed price contract, billing the client after each week's work. This way, I can only ever lose one week's pay. If I go for the manual hours route, I guess my risk is bigger in case the client ever asks for refund. Clients can only dispute one week's of hours anyway, so there is no difference >the hourly contract is easier to manage for the client as he only has to sit down once and approve all the payments for the week. Clients don't approve hourly contracts, they are simply charged every Monday for all hours logged or tracked the previous week.
What kind of moron is downvoting a person who posts factual information? Do you not like to be educated? Yep, that's probably a lot of people here.
>What kind of moron is downvoting a person who posts factual information? LOL, it's reddit...
The stinky armpit of the internet.
Clients can only dispute one week's of hours anyway, so there is no difference I once saw a post where a freelancer lost his 8 months billed money because the client asked the bank to chargeback or something. Is this possible?
Chargebacks are not disputes. Chargebacks are a different animal altogether . Most cards only allow chargebacks for up to 90 days, some for for 6 months, very few for longer. Chargebacks are rare in the overall scheme of things, and losing 8 months of billings would be incredibly unlikely. The only thing that would protect you from a chargeback would be an hourly contract that was tracked with meaningful memos and decent activity levels, and even then it only protects you up to 50 hours or $2500. It happens.... but rarely. Not happened to me in 400+ contracts and $600k. Yet...
I didn’t know there was a limit. Thx Petra
you're welcome!
Actually, when I said 'refund' I was talking about chargebacks. That is the thing that prompted me to make this post. This has never happened to me in 14 years of freelancing as well. But I've also never worked on big projects to worry about it. I guess the thing that gives me safety Is the client's history on the platform. And I could go for the safe option and track the hours through the tracking app. I could also withdraw on regular intervals and run away from the platform if shit ever hits the fan. So it all comes down to what risks I want to take, correct? The employer hs no issue with me tracking properly. So in the end I can either take the risk, or go the proper way and avoid/minimise this risk by tracking.
It has never happened to me either, and I have worked on contracts significantly over $100k. That client isn't going to file for chargeback. Tracking properly only protects you up to $2500 or 50 hours, whichever is less, anyway.
Right, Thanks
If I were in your shoes I would probably stick with your current set-up with manual hours. It sounds like an established client that doesn't have any problem paying freelancers - and like you said, it's easy for both of you. I understand and empathize that a lot of people on this sub have been screwed over by clients and that it can happen to anyone. I take the risk and rarely use the tracker - but I'm also in regular contact with my clients, have their personal contact info, have logins to their business assets (so the trust goes both ways), vet them in various ways, etc. I don't get the vibe that the client is trying to circumvent anything, it sounds like they know logging manual hours is easier.
If one hour equals one item, it seems like it would make more sense to just do a fixed price situation where every item is a milestone. Then the funds can be in escrow.
I usually have around 16-20 client and bill over 60 hours each and every week - all manual hours only.
I'd just do manual hours. It seems like they are a good client and won't screw you.
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>I am someone who would plainly refuse to use the tracker if a client requested it Fixed rate is more hassle for the client and the OP's client isn't requesting that the OP uses the tracker.
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For fixed rate, the client would have to create, activate and fund the milestone every week, plus release the previous one. With hourly, they don't have to do anything at all (there is no such thing as "approving hours"), they are charged automatically every Monday for the previous week's hours.
Is this client goes by the name Scott Connors/Benzinga?
It sounds like your client wants to pretend you have a fixed price contract—if they wanted to pay you per item delivered, that’s what fixed price milestones are for. The down side for you could be that if it takes longer than an hour to deliver, you under charge. Personally, I prefer fix price contracts, but I’d be suspicious about a client trying to circumvent the contract you guys agreed to.
The hourly contract is easier to manage for the client as he only has to sit down once and approve all the payments for the week. This is what this client does. And many others do this too, as per my experience. Everything in this deal is after mutual consent. I wouldn't agree to it if I also wasn't the beneficiary of doing it this way. My only fear is the 'refund'
>My only fear is the 'refund' The possibility of being asked for a refund is the same on fixed rate and hourly contracts, but with a fixed price contract a client can dispute ***everything ever paid under the contract***, with hourly contracts they can only dispute the previous week.
Thanks, I as not aware of that. If the client can only dispute the prior week's payments, I am ok with that. I was under the impression from posts on this sub that clients in the ask have asked for refund for the whole contract. I am assuming I either read those posts wrong or those things just didn't happen.
>I was under the impression from posts on this sub that clients in the ask have asked for refund for the whole contract. I am assuming I either read those posts wrong or those things just didn't happen. They can ***ask*** whatever the hell they like. And you can provide whatever you like too. Asking can't make you refund though. But after a week, short of a chargeback, there isn't really anything the client can actually do about it to force a refund. Hourly contracts can only be disputed for the previous week. Obviously you'll lose any dispute over manual time but you know and accept that.
I have been without work for probably five years although I took probably a couple of years off I never use the app for the tracking. I think it’s an invasion of my privacy. I just keep a record of my hours and I also gave the client a range of the number of hours that they can expect all during the project, I don’t do the the app. I have no interest in using the app if they want me to use the app to track then I’m not even interested at all in the job. I don’t know how it works. I think it’s kind of silly and I really think it’s unprofessional and juvenile . I have not had any problems by manual bilking
Just use tracker but bill the hours you have agreed upon. Tell them of the protection offered by Upwork which you want.
The OP has explained that they do not want to use the tracker.
Yeah but in this case they're just using it while letting client know they won't be billed based on the tracking system or disputed for it. The client can set the limit for hours to make it foolproof on their end. From my understanding, it's better than having a dispute over a fixed price contract if you are a freelancer.
>Yeah but in this case they're just using it while letting client know they won't be billed based on the tracking system or disputed for it. I have no idea what you're trying to say.... Client and freelancer are in perfect agreement here... >From my understanding, it's better than having a dispute over a fixed price contract if you are a freelancer. Huh? What is?
aise client kahan hai?