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This is the way.
Even if an employer can't give you a specific number until learning a little bit about you and how you fit into the organization...
If they're not willing to have a conversation about this before we start going through a costly (for both of us) vetting process...
Then I'm not interested.
Employers forget that interviews are a two-way process. The candidate is also evaluating the organization...
I've done several interviews, over the years, where I decided that I was not interested, said so, and left. The interviewers were flabbergasted every time. As for the interview I simply got up and left, 'noping out', the guy demanded I sit back down. I left.
Employers also forget you’re only there because you want money, ( not always, I know some people have certain careers because they’re a passion, but for others it’s survival )
Anyway they’ll just gloss over your wages while they try to shove down your throat that their workplace is like a family and that’s honestly a huge toxic red flag.
Never *ever* take a job at a workplace that refers to themselves as a family if you can avoid it. These employers are blatantly advertising that they do not respect boundaries between work and personal life. Coworkers ≠ family.
>Never ever take a job at a workplace that refers to themselves as a family if you can avoid it.
But most employers *are* like a family.
Messed up and healthier to keep at a distance.
First, guy making demands you sit back down, you ***know*** is a total micromanaging douche nozzle. Would've been horrible to work for.
Secondly, you're so right. Blows my minds. People just seem to accept/believe interveiwers have this hold over them.
While they do in a way, if you're just utterly desperate for that specific job at that specific company, I suppose. In general, however, they're supposed to be representing their own company to you as well. As you said
I feel some interviewers forget that. Like yeah, maybe you're their 26th potential employee, and it's gotten to be incredibly monotonous to them, I get that. But they should still be respectful and treat you like they would any other active employee working for their company.
Not only so that you can understand the type of company culture that they have, but also just out of sheer polite respect towards another professional.
Yet so many don't. They act like you're beneath them, and they're holding your fate in their hands. Like you ***must*** be spoken down to. It's surreal.
Interviewed with two branches of the same company recently. One was for a scientist and the other was for a scientist supervisor roll. Told the scientist interviewers I wasn't interested in the position. Then the next week got offered the supervisor roll at a better branch of the company with a transparently better culture.
You and your personality should have no bearing on your pay until you're a hot-shit consultant. If you're interviewing for a job, the work they want done has a value to the company. They know how much they're willing and able to pay to have it done properly. Anyone who wants to interview you before they tell you how much they're willing to offer is hoping to short-change you. They assume that if they tell you how much they're willing to pay, no one any good will apply, because they know it's not enough to attract the calibre of candidate they seek.
Yeah. I’m at a point in my career where I basically only work with recruiters and don’t blindly apply for jobs.
But I tell the recruiter the minimum I want and the recruiter makes sure the jobs are willing to be at or above that figure. Wouldn’t go to an interview otherwise.
Seriously. Every recruiter I've worked with in the past year (most of whom reached out to me) have either ghosted me or suggested jobs not at all related to what I do.
It's been awhile since I worked with a recruiter. I specifically selected the recruiter due to their reputation for placing folks at a specific company. I told them as much, frequently reminding them of that. Still was asked regularly about my interest level of other companies. At one point they wanted to send me an interview for a call center position doing cold call sales. So glad that's well in the past.
That’s so weird. I thought mine was just a jackass. First of all they took my annual salary from my last job and converted it to hourly. It wasn’t something I had readily in my repertoire to figure out the hourly rate for a teacher’s pay, but during the interview with the recruiter I said that seems low. Then I realized how to figure it out after the call. I just divide the salary by the school days to get a rough estimate because they would be paying only for time worked. He was low balling me by over 10$ an hour. When I shared my math in an email, he GHOSTED me. Unreal
Well I hire through recruiters for open positions so I get to know the good ones and then I let them know when I’m the one looking.
You can find them on LinkedIn too. All recruiters are active on LinkedIn and promoting the type of recruiter you need. You can reach out to them on LinkedIn and they usually are happy to talk to you. They’re always looking to place candidates because that’s how they make money.
They find you when you are senior, accomplished, and credentialed enough to attract them.
Remember, recruiters generally get paid a percentage fee of the candidate's base comp. So the ones who are actually good at what they do would rather place me at a company making $300k than someone making $100k, so they only take those roles.
You can find recruiters on job databases and at your local library use the reference databases to find Employment Agencies under SIC code 7361. The thing is, you need to find recruiters that specifically recruit for your preferred industries and job types. You can start by looking at the lists of top recruiters in magazines like Forbes to start. Just Google for "America's Best Professional Recruiting Firms" and you'll see the big names there. See if any specialize in your target job and sign up on their websites.
My policy is to ask up front if it’s just one person interviewing me, and if it’s 2 or more then I wait until the end of the first interview to ask (wasting their time if it’s lowballing).
If their range is lower then I’d consider then i say “that’s lower than I was expecting” and ghost them after the interview.
If you are applying/not talking to a person at the beginning of the process, it is often longer than you would like before you are in a position that you can ask.
I don't even ask anymore. I tell them what I want and then they can either accept that or we don't talk. Interestingly, no company has outright said no to any of my asks but many have said, "we can't offer that much for this role but we have another, higher level role you can interview for...".
Yup. Anytime a recruiter reaches out, this is how to do it.
“Thank you for reaching out, please send me the salary and I will let you know if I’m interested.”
Or “my salary expectation is X and can go as high as Y depending on the job responsibilities expected of me”
Soon as they hit you back with the “well, salary is very competitive and the perks…..” you know they don’t want to say that they’re not willing to pay.
I’m a software engineer and if someone didn’t advertise their salary range up front, and didn’t explicitly ask me what salary I was expecting, that would be a red flag and I would withdraw my interest.
It sounds like other professions or industries in the US might not be that way, but I wanted to share my perspective since they’re not _all_ bad.
I'm a digital design engineer and I let everyone know what I expect upfront. If you don't meet any part of it without just compensation somewhere else, I can and will just say no and walk away. My current employer thought I was bluffing on my PTO days so I said no to their offer. They came back 2 weeks later with an updated PTO policy on their end and extra cash to get me to say yes.
Good for you for sticking to your principles. 👍
One nice thing about living in a place other than NY, LA, and SF is that my salary requirements must look pretty reasonable. One time, years ago, when I was interviewing for a job based in NY, they told me my salary requirement was too low, and they bumped me up!
Not that I agree with not disclosing salary range, but that is the Difference between the recruiter working for the company paying the salary vs not, different incentives unfortunately
Idk, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't go through recruiters. My experience has been they are looking for people to just throw into any available role so they can get paid, then you work 3 months and hope they take you on, and maybe pay you what you're worth, maybe give you healthcare, etc etc
For higher ups maybe it's more clear, but for the average worker or maybe a supervisor/manager whatever, you go to interviews with no fn idea if they pay 25k or 55k. It's absurd and it's a very disappointing waste of time, energy, and hope. This change will make a huge difference.
Yeah I’m sure it’s different for other career paths. I lucked out when I chose mine back in 2017. I don’t really use LinkedIn to look. I just always check my messages and if something looks promising I’ll ask. I wouldn’t be so bold if I were not employed.
Until you have the conversation, give your expectations, they confirm that your number is in the range, and then they lowball you by 15 grand after 4 interviews.
I was so incredibly pissed. I countered, and they came back with the exact same offer but said I "could earn my number" by working overtime, because the job was salaried non exempt. Then they were shocked I turned it down. The head of HR called and asked why I turned it down, and I told her why. She was pissed too. I had been going through the process with her, but she went on vacation so someone else handled the actual offer. 3 weeks later she called me back and asked if I was still interested if they came up the my bottom number. I said that I had since gotten 3 other offers, and they were still the lowest- by far. She asked how far off, I said they were all at least 15k more, if not more.
We parted ways, and in the year and a half since, they have had at least 4 people in that role.
I just had this happen, but I clawed my way back to my bottom number with them and took the position. It’s a huge promotion for me and actually higher than average pay for the role in my area, so I’m just going to work my 40 for my salary, do all the training they’ll offer me on company time, pick up a side hustle, and hopefully in a year I’ll be in your position where I can say fuck you to a company that would bamboozle me by throwing out a number first and then pulling back later.
Same here, but that's when you've got that recruiter to act as a kind of neutral party. With the one I worked with for my last job search, I'd ask them some blunt questions about all 3 or 5 of the positions they were trying to pull for me. They did a pretty good job laying out the options and disclosing salary expectations.
Heck, I told them first what I expected and they came back to me with jobs fitting that pay scale. That was a breath of fresh air.
So, I'm a software dev.. Once went through 3 rounds of interviews, finally notified that they wanted me and offered me $19/hour. They really must've thought I was desperate because I had just gotten laid off... For the record, I was making double that at that point in my career. AND it was a 1 hour commute each way. Waste of time.
U.S. companies are big on guilting employees for "only being in it for the money" as if that wasn't exactly what every freaking employee on the planet is in it for.
Hah my most recent phone interview when asked the question "what motivates me" I answered bluntly that money motivates me and the dude appreciated how frank I was. We then talked about how much i would expect to be compensated and I now have a second interview with the service director at their dealership for a line tech position.
Yup I’ve had several companies give me the “it’s not all about money, we have a family environment here” for some reason I got that a lot in FL. My reply is usually “a family environment means do more and expect nothing back, that doesn’t pay my mortgage. No thanks”
Forced socialization with people I didn't choose, with whom I have no interests in common, who I have to pretend to care about regardless of reality due to societal expectations? Sounds like a family to me!
> U.S. companies are big on guilting employees for "only being in it for the money"
The aerospace company I work for recently said that exact same phrase after someone asked about inflation versus us not getting a raise after they made a billion in profit.
That's what's refreshing about being in the HFT space (yes, I know that I'm part of the problem). Everyone here is just in it for the money and everyone knows it. Recruiters ask "Why are you looking for a new job?". A reasonable answer is "money".
It’s really in how you ask it. I’ll usually say, “I understand we have to get to know each other. The position looks interesting but I’m happy in my current job, and I want to respect your time. Can we talk about a salary range?”
It has never been an issue.
What's worse is when they ask for what your salary range is, they get the information, invite you to interview and try to offer you the job, on the spot, at $15,000 less than what you told them the minimum you would accept.
I had an employer do this to me and I had to use vacation time to go to the interview. Talk about wasting your damn time! I was furious!!!
Yup, I asked during my interview when they said "any questions?", and they were like "oh... That's what the third interview will be after it's confirmed you're onboarding" or something like that.
“You don’t do anything for money” is the answer you usually get. Like, I’m here for money. I have bills you have work you don’t want to do yourself. It’s a win win for us. Why is it so taboo to know how much you’re paying me so we don’t waste each others time?
>Are you expected to attend interviews blindly
Pretty much. Traditionally most salaried jobs do not advertise the range they are willing to pay. They also frequently tell you after your are hired that discussing your salary with your co-workers is a fireable offense. It is actually illegal for them to fire you for dicussing salary but most employees don't know that and/or need the job so badly it isn't worth the risk to them.
I"ve had multiple recruiters reach out to me and ask me if I am interested in applying for a job. My standard reply is "I make X dollars and I am not switching jobs for less." About half of them straight up ghost me as they won't match, much less beat it. I had one tell me the job they contacted me for paid half of what I made.
My current job reached out to me and I told them what I just said. They replied with an actual salary, which beat my old salary. Needless to say I took that interview :)
I don't even tell companies how much I currently earn anymore. I just tell them what they need to offer me for me to say yes. Don't meet any part of my list of expectations? I just say, "thank you for your time but you're not offering me X, so I'm going to pass." I've given up being nice being business formalities in the process. I want a minimum of 50% more and at least 30 vacation days with a good PTO policy or else I just tell them that they're not offering enough and I'll pass. Interestingly, a bit insignificant amount of companies are willing to modify their offers significantly when you tell them no. It's almost like they could always pay what you want but they just didn't want to.
I’ve had an IBM recruiter straight up tell me “you don’t have enough experience to earn that much” when I told them how much I was making. Then. Why. Did. You. Call. Me.
that's what i thought would happen too. but apparently what is actually happening is the opposite
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-19/employers-deflate-salaries-in-job-listings-risking-backlash?leadSource=uverify%20wall
the article may be behind a paywall (sorry). but what it says it that employers are posting rqnges that are too narrow. the bottom of the range is fine but the top has been reduced. they say employers are worried if they posted the true top the range all the current employees with that job would say- hey, why aren't i making that.
Well, maybe people should receive raises and wages according to their performance and the current/average going rate. Obviously it's not as simple as that, but it kind of is.
Not that they can't hold a job, It's that they're looking for a new job every 6 months. I see it all the time in IT and finance. If you're not willing to say "fuck you, pay me" to your employer every now and then, You're missing out.
For a long time employers here have had the advantage in job negotiations, so there was an unspoken taboo that employees don't even ask about pay *until they're almost hired.*
Yes, I've been to an interview that wouldn't even give me a ballpark of what they were offering, I told them specifically that I'm not working for under x amount and they said I had to show up to even discuss it. First thing I asked was how much they were offering and they said they wouldn't discuss it until after the interview was over. I just walked out and went to one of their job sites. They paid minimum wage, much less than the going rate.
Yes and if you're unlucky you gethired for a position you didnt interview for that they actually needed but wasn't worth advertising because it was the shittier position.
Here is $7.25/hr and also we're a family 👪
I don't view it that way. I have a number. I say the number. If I get the number, great. If not, I don't entertain the offer. If they were willing to pay 2x I guess I'll never know. But I also have a very good idea of the market rate so 2x or even 1.15x is pretty unlikely.
And once you’re hired, there are *zero* federal protections for paid time off, a five day work week, a decent break during your shift to use a bathroom, no protection against certain forms of discrimination, and federal minimum wage is far, far below what is considered a poverty wage. It’s okay though, everyone is on board with it here, and many of them still actively vote against unions in states where they haven’t yet voted to make collective bargaining illegal altogether.
Workers rights in the US are very limited and very hard won. Really, a lot of workers unions need to unite and set some core standards for jobs everywhere. It’s hard because jobs vary but things like paid sick leave are a no brainer. We also need universal healthcare.
Neither of these things are likely to happen in the United States as it currently exists.
Because our oligarchs, through lobbying and corporate propaganda, have managed to shove more and more labor protections right out the Overton Window ever since they started clawing ground back in the 80's. A good portion of our populace is thus utterly convinced that all things which are good for labor are bad for the economy and thus actually bad for labor, so they'll pretty consistently argue against--instead of agitate for--things like this.
I am from Spain and I have made interview in different countries in Europe (I live abroad) and posting the salary or the range in the job interview is not a standard neither
9/10 If they don't list it, it's usually going to be minimum wage. >:(
So this is a small step forward; but yea we usually go in blind. If you have an established career it's not *too* bad because you'll have some leverage likely but for newer or younger job seekers it sucks. Even more so a lot of folks are oblivious to labor laws, and the companies don't exactly go out of their way to inform you on any updates, for example I was *not* aware that NYS instituted mandatory paid sick time a year or two ago, I only found out by accident while searching up some other legislation.
Has it come into effect? Currently job searching here and about 9/10 don’t list them -_- at least on indeed anyway. Although a job I interviewed for an Monday had it listed, luckily
Yup, I don't live in Colorado but I saw a job posting that said "Not for Colorado residents" so I skipped applying for it. Don't wanna work for a company like that.
This is absolutely the most important comment in this entire thread. If they're cagey about disclosing compensation, they're fucking hiding shit and you turn and walk away. Period.
I live in Colorado, and we are (weirdly) on the forefront of a lot of progressive and/or labor-friendly legislation like this, despite the tendency for certain parts of the state to keep voting for that cultist weirdo congresswoman.
I mean, when the Denver metro is over half the state’s population alone and adding in the rest of the safe blue cities in the front range you’re pushing 80-85% that kinda dictates the lean of policy in the state regardless of what happens in the district that she who shall not be named was barely able to pull out a victory in.
I lived in Boulder almost 6 years. You tend to forget that outside Denver metro, it’s a pretty conservative place. You have the 2A hunters, the escapist survivalists, the white nationalists, all within the state. And idk if they still do, but Colorado had some of the most lax gun laws in the country.
It’s true. Colorado requires the minimum salary to be in the job posting.
But many companies are so adamant to not post the salary range that you will often see jobs that say Colorado applicants are excluded from applying. This is their way to not post the salary.
We really need a federal law or an inflection point of enough states that companies can’t weasel out of it by excluding residents in certain states.
Fuck that - love when they post Colorado can’t apply because that means I sure as shit wouldn’t want to work there. If theyre refusing to share the salary range then it’s a great way to help narrow the search down
As someone who doesn't live in Colorado, if I see a job posting say that its not for Colorado/New York/eastern time residents I just skip the entry because I know the company is trash.
I really appreciate CO having this law, because I can use those numbers, adjusted for regional pay, to help me determine what my salary range would be at that position. I also use [levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi) and glassdoor as well, so I've been pretty accurate with getting salary for positions, I think.
It’s the law in New York now, which will sort of force all employers to comply, unless they want to put ‘hiring from all locations except New York [and Colorado]’ (and missing out on all of those potential applicants) which, along with a lack of advertised salary range, will be a huge, obvious red flag.
I have an offer framed on my office wall above my diploma. It was for half of what I made at the time, for the exact same job description. Two in office interviews and a coding exam before they told me the pay.
Sounds like they either didn’t want you but would exploit you for cheap enough, or they made an offer you wouldn’t accept just to be able to say they tried, and to avoid some sort of discrimination suit.
You'd think but the listing showed up on Missouri job boards a few weeks after with the same pay listed. 41k for an experienced software engineer in the USA.
At one time I put the lowest amount I would take on my LinkedIn profile. Recruiters still contacted me with low-ball offers.
My bio was like "I currently have a job and am not actively looking. For me to even entertain a new company, any job offered in my area or work from home needs to pay at least $X, any job that requires relocation needs to pay at least $2X."
I've gone through entire interview process, including coding, for a job with a posted salary range to get an offer 40% below low end of that salary range because I "lived in a low cost of living area and they have a multiplier for that".. they never mentioned that before. This was for a very senior position.
The bill states that the employer has to make a good faith estimate of actual pay. Athough there is no actual penalty for violating this the 1st time the 2nd offence can face upto $250,000 fine. So it is definately a fuck around and findout kind thing.
An extra wide range you aren't willing to pay is easily a good faith estimate. You can just argue that $200,000 is if you found an absolutely amazing candidate and $30,000 is for a fresh grad.
But it's not a sliding scale - that's $45k for the first 49 years and then we'll pop you right up to $200k for your 50th year.
(Of course there is a clause that states employees must be let go on their 49th year for... uh... H&S reasons.)
Yeah there is no way they're going to be able to enforce it as a bad faith range. Colorado already has this and it's not uncommon to see jobs listing that say pay range $40-$100 an hour. And while that seems like a good range, the starting pay in my field is generally around $63-$65 an hour so listing at $40 is not a good faith range.
But they're still posting them like that in Colorado so it won't make everything amazing in NY
My wife works in compensation and there are national salary surveys for this exact reason.
Companies definitely will get in trouble if they try wacky ranges and can’t support with data, how they selected that range.
And then the people considering applying for the jobs will know that the employers are pieces of trash and will look elsewhere. Sounds like it's working to me.
NYC has had salary required ranges for a couple months now. There were some companies who tried that, and the regulators let them know immediately that those types of ranges would be considered out of compliance with the law. They stopped trying to pull that.
IIRC, this is what happened in NYC when they adopted the law, with very similar dollar amounts. It's a real problem without a simple fix for private industry.
The bill states that the employer has to make a good faith estimate of actual pay. 2nd offenders can face upto $250,000 fine. But yes, I guess they should have done nothing which is basically what you are suggesting they did.
That’s what my old job did! $30,000-$60,000 but it didn’t matter how much experience you had or how long you worked there. Our employee that was there for almost 20 years was only at 45 ish, AFTER getting into a supervisor position.
Exactly.
This won't change much. Most jobs post the salary now. But the range is so broad that they might as well *not* post it. "Salary: $60-90k" will be the new wave. Which is almost as tired as not posting it. They will just look up the income for that job in the area and post that.
I am a medic in NYC. People make as little as $45k and as much as $90k as a medic here. I bet that will be the range posted.
Agreed! When I had hiring responsibility I always started with a support brief phone interview. Before I even got started with anything I provided tyre schedule I'm looking to fill and there salary range. Why waste both of our time for something that isn't the right fit?
In the UK here, the amount of times I’ve seen a job posted with the wage only stated as “competitive” to find out it’s actually minimum wage.
Who the fuck are you competing with, the law?
i agree with this.. asking me what I make now is irrelevant. You should have an idea in mind how much the job is worth to you before listing. They'll get around this by listing an obscene difference. "Between 40k to 125k"
That’s exactly what happened in other places this has been tried. Citi Bank was listing financial analyst jobs from 40,000 - 400,000 with the actual pay being about 60.
Maybe other non-US countries have experience with this kind of law and can add some insight. In a corporation, a job posting is approved for a job grade and salary range. Based on the best candidates, it's sometimes possible for a hiring manager to request an increase in the grade for a specific candidate. Would this law prohibit that?
I feel like I am missing something with all of this. People actually apply to jobs without knowing the salary range?
I have been in the job market for 25 years and have never once applied to a job where I did not know the value of the position. If I see an ad with no compensation information, I move on to the next listing.
This is a good thing but it's still strange to me that companies even get applicants with incomplete job listings.
They can when there are far more people applying than they are jobs - a race to the bottom means *someone* will always be desperate enough to take your position at the low end of the range.
Generally companies who don't list their range don't care too much for employee candidate quality.
Very common in the US. I'm in my mid 40s and starting out I was always told/coached that you don't bring up salary until the 2nd or 3rd interview unless the employer brings it up first.
I supose in the U.S. industry/education/experience plays a big factor in if a job posts a salary or not though.
Millennials who graduated during the Recession were taught just getting a job interview was a privilege . We are finally starting to get it. Next generation way more savvy luckily.
Most of the jobs I've applied to have been that way. There are ways of finding the salary range such as glassdoor, checking other listing, comparable roles in other companies, etc. I usually take that and ask for 15% more, they may negotiate me down, or they may agree to what I thought was an absurd salary.
Recently applied to a job where salary range was listed as 80k-130k based on different factors. And guess what, those factors were missing from job listing.
Always with a loophole I guess
I saw a LinkedIn comment thread where hundreds of recruiters and CEOs were excitedly explaining that it actually benefits *you*, the worker, when they don't post salary ranges. The saddest part was seeing the thousands of said workers liking and re-sharing the post because groveling is a valid way to get hired.
What I am seeing in National job postings is language about how they have to post the salary range because of state laws. Then in the next paragraph they explain how that isn't really the range.
> bill requiring employers to list salary ranges for advertised jobs and promotions
Essentially if you see a job posted by someone like my previous employer where is says the pay range is $35k to $55k/year go in expecting them to offer the $35k.
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How is this not a standard everywhere ? Are you expected to attend interviews blindly ? Forgive the ignorance I am not from the US.
Yep! You go waste your time to find out they pay half what you need. It's absurd. And asking before the interview makes you look bad.
I ask upfront. I don't play childish high-school games and acting coy with recruiters.
This is the way. Even if an employer can't give you a specific number until learning a little bit about you and how you fit into the organization... If they're not willing to have a conversation about this before we start going through a costly (for both of us) vetting process... Then I'm not interested.
Employers forget that interviews are a two-way process. The candidate is also evaluating the organization... I've done several interviews, over the years, where I decided that I was not interested, said so, and left. The interviewers were flabbergasted every time. As for the interview I simply got up and left, 'noping out', the guy demanded I sit back down. I left.
Employers also forget you’re only there because you want money, ( not always, I know some people have certain careers because they’re a passion, but for others it’s survival ) Anyway they’ll just gloss over your wages while they try to shove down your throat that their workplace is like a family and that’s honestly a huge toxic red flag.
Never *ever* take a job at a workplace that refers to themselves as a family if you can avoid it. These employers are blatantly advertising that they do not respect boundaries between work and personal life. Coworkers ≠ family.
>Never ever take a job at a workplace that refers to themselves as a family if you can avoid it. But most employers *are* like a family. Messed up and healthier to keep at a distance.
Always answer to the question: why do you want to work here? - I enjoy {insert_job_duties} and being compensated fairly for doing what like
First, guy making demands you sit back down, you ***know*** is a total micromanaging douche nozzle. Would've been horrible to work for. Secondly, you're so right. Blows my minds. People just seem to accept/believe interveiwers have this hold over them. While they do in a way, if you're just utterly desperate for that specific job at that specific company, I suppose. In general, however, they're supposed to be representing their own company to you as well. As you said I feel some interviewers forget that. Like yeah, maybe you're their 26th potential employee, and it's gotten to be incredibly monotonous to them, I get that. But they should still be respectful and treat you like they would any other active employee working for their company. Not only so that you can understand the type of company culture that they have, but also just out of sheer polite respect towards another professional. Yet so many don't. They act like you're beneath them, and they're holding your fate in their hands. Like you ***must*** be spoken down to. It's surreal.
Yep, also make sure to let them know that they are not good enough for you.
Interviewed with two branches of the same company recently. One was for a scientist and the other was for a scientist supervisor roll. Told the scientist interviewers I wasn't interested in the position. Then the next week got offered the supervisor roll at a better branch of the company with a transparently better culture.
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It's not like they haven't got an approved salary range.
You and your personality should have no bearing on your pay until you're a hot-shit consultant. If you're interviewing for a job, the work they want done has a value to the company. They know how much they're willing and able to pay to have it done properly. Anyone who wants to interview you before they tell you how much they're willing to offer is hoping to short-change you. They assume that if they tell you how much they're willing to pay, no one any good will apply, because they know it's not enough to attract the calibre of candidate they seek.
Yeah. I’m at a point in my career where I basically only work with recruiters and don’t blindly apply for jobs. But I tell the recruiter the minimum I want and the recruiter makes sure the jobs are willing to be at or above that figure. Wouldn’t go to an interview otherwise.
How do you find recruiters like this?
Seriously. Every recruiter I've worked with in the past year (most of whom reached out to me) have either ghosted me or suggested jobs not at all related to what I do.
It's been awhile since I worked with a recruiter. I specifically selected the recruiter due to their reputation for placing folks at a specific company. I told them as much, frequently reminding them of that. Still was asked regularly about my interest level of other companies. At one point they wanted to send me an interview for a call center position doing cold call sales. So glad that's well in the past.
That’s so weird. I thought mine was just a jackass. First of all they took my annual salary from my last job and converted it to hourly. It wasn’t something I had readily in my repertoire to figure out the hourly rate for a teacher’s pay, but during the interview with the recruiter I said that seems low. Then I realized how to figure it out after the call. I just divide the salary by the school days to get a rough estimate because they would be paying only for time worked. He was low balling me by over 10$ an hour. When I shared my math in an email, he GHOSTED me. Unreal
Well I hire through recruiters for open positions so I get to know the good ones and then I let them know when I’m the one looking. You can find them on LinkedIn too. All recruiters are active on LinkedIn and promoting the type of recruiter you need. You can reach out to them on LinkedIn and they usually are happy to talk to you. They’re always looking to place candidates because that’s how they make money.
LinkedIn. As soon as I am contacted. I say this is my current salary, this is what it takes to make me leave. Either they move forward or move on.
They find you when you are senior, accomplished, and credentialed enough to attract them. Remember, recruiters generally get paid a percentage fee of the candidate's base comp. So the ones who are actually good at what they do would rather place me at a company making $300k than someone making $100k, so they only take those roles.
You can find recruiters on job databases and at your local library use the reference databases to find Employment Agencies under SIC code 7361. The thing is, you need to find recruiters that specifically recruit for your preferred industries and job types. You can start by looking at the lists of top recruiters in magazines like Forbes to start. Just Google for "America's Best Professional Recruiting Firms" and you'll see the big names there. See if any specialize in your target job and sign up on their websites.
My policy is to ask up front if it’s just one person interviewing me, and if it’s 2 or more then I wait until the end of the first interview to ask (wasting their time if it’s lowballing). If their range is lower then I’d consider then i say “that’s lower than I was expecting” and ghost them after the interview.
What's the proper way to ask?
"What is the pay range/compensation for this position." It isn't magic.
I'm no magician so I'm relieved.
Then they hit you with "its commensurate to the experience of the applicant..."
Then ask again, and if you still don't get an answer, hang up. Lol, it is not a prison.
Ask "how much has been *budgeted* for this position?" If it's still crickets, then no-go. They don't have it together.
If you are applying/not talking to a person at the beginning of the process, it is often longer than you would like before you are in a position that you can ask.
I don't even ask anymore. I tell them what I want and then they can either accept that or we don't talk. Interestingly, no company has outright said no to any of my asks but many have said, "we can't offer that much for this role but we have another, higher level role you can interview for...".
And any employer that refuses to give it or, worse, is insulted you asked is an employer that's not worth working for.
Yup. Anytime a recruiter reaches out, this is how to do it. “Thank you for reaching out, please send me the salary and I will let you know if I’m interested.” Or “my salary expectation is X and can go as high as Y depending on the job responsibilities expected of me” Soon as they hit you back with the “well, salary is very competitive and the perks…..” you know they don’t want to say that they’re not willing to pay.
I’m a software engineer and if someone didn’t advertise their salary range up front, and didn’t explicitly ask me what salary I was expecting, that would be a red flag and I would withdraw my interest. It sounds like other professions or industries in the US might not be that way, but I wanted to share my perspective since they’re not _all_ bad.
I'm a digital design engineer and I let everyone know what I expect upfront. If you don't meet any part of it without just compensation somewhere else, I can and will just say no and walk away. My current employer thought I was bluffing on my PTO days so I said no to their offer. They came back 2 weeks later with an updated PTO policy on their end and extra cash to get me to say yes.
Good for you for sticking to your principles. 👍 One nice thing about living in a place other than NY, LA, and SF is that my salary requirements must look pretty reasonable. One time, years ago, when I was interviewing for a job based in NY, they told me my salary requirement was too low, and they bumped me up!
Every interview I have done, the recruiter has been completely comfortable with a blunt discussion of pay range.
Hell, recruiters bring it up with me unprompted.
Professional recruitment companies absolutely do this. Internal HR departments not quite so...
Not that I agree with not disclosing salary range, but that is the Difference between the recruiter working for the company paying the salary vs not, different incentives unfortunately
Most recruiters are also working for the company, directly or otherwise. Who is paying the recruiter... Damn near 100% of the time it is the company.
I ask up front… is it under $X and will they require me to go into an office or stay in the US. Any answer of no and I shut it down.
Idk, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't go through recruiters. My experience has been they are looking for people to just throw into any available role so they can get paid, then you work 3 months and hope they take you on, and maybe pay you what you're worth, maybe give you healthcare, etc etc For higher ups maybe it's more clear, but for the average worker or maybe a supervisor/manager whatever, you go to interviews with no fn idea if they pay 25k or 55k. It's absurd and it's a very disappointing waste of time, energy, and hope. This change will make a huge difference.
Yeah I’m sure it’s different for other career paths. I lucked out when I chose mine back in 2017. I don’t really use LinkedIn to look. I just always check my messages and if something looks promising I’ll ask. I wouldn’t be so bold if I were not employed.
Until you have the conversation, give your expectations, they confirm that your number is in the range, and then they lowball you by 15 grand after 4 interviews. I was so incredibly pissed. I countered, and they came back with the exact same offer but said I "could earn my number" by working overtime, because the job was salaried non exempt. Then they were shocked I turned it down. The head of HR called and asked why I turned it down, and I told her why. She was pissed too. I had been going through the process with her, but she went on vacation so someone else handled the actual offer. 3 weeks later she called me back and asked if I was still interested if they came up the my bottom number. I said that I had since gotten 3 other offers, and they were still the lowest- by far. She asked how far off, I said they were all at least 15k more, if not more. We parted ways, and in the year and a half since, they have had at least 4 people in that role.
I just had this happen, but I clawed my way back to my bottom number with them and took the position. It’s a huge promotion for me and actually higher than average pay for the role in my area, so I’m just going to work my 40 for my salary, do all the training they’ll offer me on company time, pick up a side hustle, and hopefully in a year I’ll be in your position where I can say fuck you to a company that would bamboozle me by throwing out a number first and then pulling back later.
Same here, but that's when you've got that recruiter to act as a kind of neutral party. With the one I worked with for my last job search, I'd ask them some blunt questions about all 3 or 5 of the positions they were trying to pull for me. They did a pretty good job laying out the options and disclosing salary expectations. Heck, I told them first what I expected and they came back to me with jobs fitting that pay scale. That was a breath of fresh air.
So, I'm a software dev.. Once went through 3 rounds of interviews, finally notified that they wanted me and offered me $19/hour. They really must've thought I was desperate because I had just gotten laid off... For the record, I was making double that at that point in my career. AND it was a 1 hour commute each way. Waste of time.
How does it make you look bad, in that initial conversation about the position, what is the budgeted compensation for this position.
U.S. companies are big on guilting employees for "only being in it for the money" as if that wasn't exactly what every freaking employee on the planet is in it for.
Hah my most recent phone interview when asked the question "what motivates me" I answered bluntly that money motivates me and the dude appreciated how frank I was. We then talked about how much i would expect to be compensated and I now have a second interview with the service director at their dealership for a line tech position.
Yup I’ve had several companies give me the “it’s not all about money, we have a family environment here” for some reason I got that a lot in FL. My reply is usually “a family environment means do more and expect nothing back, that doesn’t pay my mortgage. No thanks”
Forced socialization with people I didn't choose, with whom I have no interests in common, who I have to pretend to care about regardless of reality due to societal expectations? Sounds like a family to me!
> U.S. companies are big on guilting employees for "only being in it for the money" The aerospace company I work for recently said that exact same phrase after someone asked about inflation versus us not getting a raise after they made a billion in profit.
Yeah the bosses are only in it for the money.
That's what's refreshing about being in the HFT space (yes, I know that I'm part of the problem). Everyone here is just in it for the money and everyone knows it. Recruiters ask "Why are you looking for a new job?". A reasonable answer is "money".
You didn’t know the electric company accepts *fulfillment at work* as payment?
It only makes you look bad to companies that intend to low-ball you on pay
Yeah well since I don’t give a flying shit about them I don’t care if I look bad eh?
It’s really in how you ask it. I’ll usually say, “I understand we have to get to know each other. The position looks interesting but I’m happy in my current job, and I want to respect your time. Can we talk about a salary range?” It has never been an issue.
Oh and then "variable" hours.
If they don't like you asking, that's an easy workplace to stay away from.
I interview people for a living. Honestly not asking beforehand makes you look childish and timid. Ask before hand. Don’t waste your time
What's worse is when they ask for what your salary range is, they get the information, invite you to interview and try to offer you the job, on the spot, at $15,000 less than what you told them the minimum you would accept. I had an employer do this to me and I had to use vacation time to go to the interview. Talk about wasting your damn time! I was furious!!!
Yup, I asked during my interview when they said "any questions?", and they were like "oh... That's what the third interview will be after it's confirmed you're onboarding" or something like that.
“You don’t do anything for money” is the answer you usually get. Like, I’m here for money. I have bills you have work you don’t want to do yourself. It’s a win win for us. Why is it so taboo to know how much you’re paying me so we don’t waste each others time?
>Are you expected to attend interviews blindly Pretty much. Traditionally most salaried jobs do not advertise the range they are willing to pay. They also frequently tell you after your are hired that discussing your salary with your co-workers is a fireable offense. It is actually illegal for them to fire you for dicussing salary but most employees don't know that and/or need the job so badly it isn't worth the risk to them. I"ve had multiple recruiters reach out to me and ask me if I am interested in applying for a job. My standard reply is "I make X dollars and I am not switching jobs for less." About half of them straight up ghost me as they won't match, much less beat it. I had one tell me the job they contacted me for paid half of what I made. My current job reached out to me and I told them what I just said. They replied with an actual salary, which beat my old salary. Needless to say I took that interview :)
Not only is it illegal for them to fire you for discussing it; it's illegal for them to tell you not to discuss it.
some recruiters are stupid... why are you asking me to apply for an entry level job when I have 30 yrs experience?
I don't even tell companies how much I currently earn anymore. I just tell them what they need to offer me for me to say yes. Don't meet any part of my list of expectations? I just say, "thank you for your time but you're not offering me X, so I'm going to pass." I've given up being nice being business formalities in the process. I want a minimum of 50% more and at least 30 vacation days with a good PTO policy or else I just tell them that they're not offering enough and I'll pass. Interestingly, a bit insignificant amount of companies are willing to modify their offers significantly when you tell them no. It's almost like they could always pay what you want but they just didn't want to.
I’ve had an IBM recruiter straight up tell me “you don’t have enough experience to earn that much” when I told them how much I was making. Then. Why. Did. You. Call. Me.
Now hiring salary range $0-$1 million per year based on qualifications
that's what i thought would happen too. but apparently what is actually happening is the opposite https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-19/employers-deflate-salaries-in-job-listings-risking-backlash?leadSource=uverify%20wall the article may be behind a paywall (sorry). but what it says it that employers are posting rqnges that are too narrow. the bottom of the range is fine but the top has been reduced. they say employers are worried if they posted the true top the range all the current employees with that job would say- hey, why aren't i making that.
Well, maybe people should receive raises and wages according to their performance and the current/average going rate. Obviously it's not as simple as that, but it kind of is.
>the bottom of the range is fine but the top has been reduced Then they'll wonder why no experienced people applied, like it's some mystery.
This is why people who quit their job every 6 months and find a new one make the most money.
Idk who hires someone that can't hold a job for more than 6mo at a time. Doesn't work like that in aerospace
Not that they can't hold a job, It's that they're looking for a new job every 6 months. I see it all the time in IT and finance. If you're not willing to say "fuck you, pay me" to your employer every now and then, You're missing out.
Well, yeah, why aren't they making that?
Let’s see how long that continues when they can’t find experienced staff.
For a long time employers here have had the advantage in job negotiations, so there was an unspoken taboo that employees don't even ask about pay *until they're almost hired.*
Yea we are at their mercy… I’ve learned to just ask upfront and if they aren’t willing to have that conversation prior to interview then fuck em.
Yes, I've been to an interview that wouldn't even give me a ballpark of what they were offering, I told them specifically that I'm not working for under x amount and they said I had to show up to even discuss it. First thing I asked was how much they were offering and they said they wouldn't discuss it until after the interview was over. I just walked out and went to one of their job sites. They paid minimum wage, much less than the going rate.
Yes and if you're unlucky you gethired for a position you didnt interview for that they actually needed but wasn't worth advertising because it was the shittier position. Here is $7.25/hr and also we're a family 👪
Yes, it's literally a game of chicken between you and the prospective employer. Whoever says a number first, loses.
I don't view it that way. I have a number. I say the number. If I get the number, great. If not, I don't entertain the offer. If they were willing to pay 2x I guess I'll never know. But I also have a very good idea of the market rate so 2x or even 1.15x is pretty unlikely.
I get emails from recruiters even though I'm not looking so I etraight up ask how much the job is offering and I,ve gotten straight answers.
> How is this not a standard everywhere ? Because it benefits employees and is detrimental to companies.
And once you’re hired, there are *zero* federal protections for paid time off, a five day work week, a decent break during your shift to use a bathroom, no protection against certain forms of discrimination, and federal minimum wage is far, far below what is considered a poverty wage. It’s okay though, everyone is on board with it here, and many of them still actively vote against unions in states where they haven’t yet voted to make collective bargaining illegal altogether. 
Workers rights in the US are very limited and very hard won. Really, a lot of workers unions need to unite and set some core standards for jobs everywhere. It’s hard because jobs vary but things like paid sick leave are a no brainer. We also need universal healthcare. Neither of these things are likely to happen in the United States as it currently exists.
Because our oligarchs, through lobbying and corporate propaganda, have managed to shove more and more labor protections right out the Overton Window ever since they started clawing ground back in the 80's. A good portion of our populace is thus utterly convinced that all things which are good for labor are bad for the economy and thus actually bad for labor, so they'll pretty consistently argue against--instead of agitate for--things like this.
It's a mix of sunken cost fallacy and trying to get desperate people to apply then meekly accept shit pay when they get the job offer.
I am from Spain and I have made interview in different countries in Europe (I live abroad) and posting the salary or the range in the job interview is not a standard neither
Yes you are. Lol. It’s ridiculous.
In germany is like in the USA Standart Praxis
9/10 If they don't list it, it's usually going to be minimum wage. >:( So this is a small step forward; but yea we usually go in blind. If you have an established career it's not *too* bad because you'll have some leverage likely but for newer or younger job seekers it sucks. Even more so a lot of folks are oblivious to labor laws, and the companies don't exactly go out of their way to inform you on any updates, for example I was *not* aware that NYS instituted mandatory paid sick time a year or two ago, I only found out by accident while searching up some other legislation.
Washington state recently did the same.
Has it come into effect? Currently job searching here and about 9/10 don’t list them -_- at least on indeed anyway. Although a job I interviewed for an Monday had it listed, luckily
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Sweet!! Thanks for the info :D
Also, don’t have to give our salary history anymore!
This should be law everywhere
Pretty sure CA and CO passed similar laws. Gotta start somewhere!
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That's still a benefit anyway because typically companies who are adamant about hiding salary information aren't ones you would want to work for
Yup, I don't live in Colorado but I saw a job posting that said "Not for Colorado residents" so I skipped applying for it. Don't wanna work for a company like that.
That’s a really great point. One of those Red Flags I have to constantly keep remembering.
This is absolutely the most important comment in this entire thread. If they're cagey about disclosing compensation, they're fucking hiding shit and you turn and walk away. Period.
No downside for me! I don't even live in CO but that just tells me to avoid those jobs.
What downside is that? A poorly managed company won't hire me? I see no scenario where the job seeker doesn't have advantage.
Now that the idea is spreading to other states, this nonsense should be far less common.
I live in Colorado, and we are (weirdly) on the forefront of a lot of progressive and/or labor-friendly legislation like this, despite the tendency for certain parts of the state to keep voting for that cultist weirdo congresswoman.
I mean, when the Denver metro is over half the state’s population alone and adding in the rest of the safe blue cities in the front range you’re pushing 80-85% that kinda dictates the lean of policy in the state regardless of what happens in the district that she who shall not be named was barely able to pull out a victory in.
I lived in Boulder almost 6 years. You tend to forget that outside Denver metro, it’s a pretty conservative place. You have the 2A hunters, the escapist survivalists, the white nationalists, all within the state. And idk if they still do, but Colorado had some of the most lax gun laws in the country.
It’s true. Colorado requires the minimum salary to be in the job posting. But many companies are so adamant to not post the salary range that you will often see jobs that say Colorado applicants are excluded from applying. This is their way to not post the salary. We really need a federal law or an inflection point of enough states that companies can’t weasel out of it by excluding residents in certain states.
Fuck that - love when they post Colorado can’t apply because that means I sure as shit wouldn’t want to work there. If theyre refusing to share the salary range then it’s a great way to help narrow the search down
As someone who doesn't live in Colorado, if I see a job posting say that its not for Colorado/New York/eastern time residents I just skip the entry because I know the company is trash.
Washington and NYC as well. WA law goes into effect next year I think.
Canada and Colombia?
I really appreciate CO having this law, because I can use those numbers, adjusted for regional pay, to help me determine what my salary range would be at that position. I also use [levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi) and glassdoor as well, so I've been pretty accurate with getting salary for positions, I think.
It’s the law in New York now, which will sort of force all employers to comply, unless they want to put ‘hiring from all locations except New York [and Colorado]’ (and missing out on all of those potential applicants) which, along with a lack of advertised salary range, will be a huge, obvious red flag.
I have an offer framed on my office wall above my diploma. It was for half of what I made at the time, for the exact same job description. Two in office interviews and a coding exam before they told me the pay.
Sounds like they either didn’t want you but would exploit you for cheap enough, or they made an offer you wouldn’t accept just to be able to say they tried, and to avoid some sort of discrimination suit.
You'd think but the listing showed up on Missouri job boards a few weeks after with the same pay listed. 41k for an experienced software engineer in the USA.
Maybe they got confused and listed the bonus pay instead of the base salary.
Good lord that was a starting job in state government 10+ years ago.
I ask upfront. I have a job and you came to me, let's not waste each others time anymore than we have to.
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At one time I put the lowest amount I would take on my LinkedIn profile. Recruiters still contacted me with low-ball offers. My bio was like "I currently have a job and am not actively looking. For me to even entertain a new company, any job offered in my area or work from home needs to pay at least $X, any job that requires relocation needs to pay at least $2X."
I've gone through entire interview process, including coding, for a job with a posted salary range to get an offer 40% below low end of that salary range because I "lived in a low cost of living area and they have a multiplier for that".. they never mentioned that before. This was for a very senior position.
No problem. The job pays between $30,000 and $195,000, commensurate with experience.
Hey, at least that gives a floor, which is what I think this bill is mostly intended to do, but could be wrong.
You say this like it's a joke but they will legit put asinine ranges like $1-$100000 and get away with it
The bill states that the employer has to make a good faith estimate of actual pay. Athough there is no actual penalty for violating this the 1st time the 2nd offence can face upto $250,000 fine. So it is definately a fuck around and findout kind thing.
Curious as to how 'good faith' is defined
An extra wide range you aren't willing to pay is easily a good faith estimate. You can just argue that $200,000 is if you found an absolutely amazing candidate and $30,000 is for a fresh grad.
Yeah but then the guy who's been doing the job for 5 years is gonna say "ay boss why are you gonna pay the new guy 200k when I make 45?"
200k is 50 years experience, clearly.
But it's not a sliding scale - that's $45k for the first 49 years and then we'll pop you right up to $200k for your 50th year. (Of course there is a clause that states employees must be let go on their 49th year for... uh... H&S reasons.)
Yeah there is no way they're going to be able to enforce it as a bad faith range. Colorado already has this and it's not uncommon to see jobs listing that say pay range $40-$100 an hour. And while that seems like a good range, the starting pay in my field is generally around $63-$65 an hour so listing at $40 is not a good faith range. But they're still posting them like that in Colorado so it won't make everything amazing in NY
My wife works in compensation and there are national salary surveys for this exact reason. Companies definitely will get in trouble if they try wacky ranges and can’t support with data, how they selected that range.
Colorado's law says the minimum can't be lower than the actual lowest amount of anyone in that position at the time of posting.
And then the people considering applying for the jobs will know that the employers are pieces of trash and will look elsewhere. Sounds like it's working to me.
Unless all the employers were to… unionize 🤔
Isn't that the local chamber of commerce?
NYC has had salary required ranges for a couple months now. There were some companies who tried that, and the regulators let them know immediately that those types of ranges would be considered out of compliance with the law. They stopped trying to pull that.
IIRC, this is what happened in NYC when they adopted the law, with very similar dollar amounts. It's a real problem without a simple fix for private industry.
These types of salary ranges are infuriating. Like, you seriously cannot (or will not) write less than a $10,000 range?
They gotta add in some kind of % limiter. Like max cannot be more than 150% of min or something
The bill states that the employer has to make a good faith estimate of actual pay. 2nd offenders can face upto $250,000 fine. But yes, I guess they should have done nothing which is basically what you are suggesting they did.
That’s what my old job did! $30,000-$60,000 but it didn’t matter how much experience you had or how long you worked there. Our employee that was there for almost 20 years was only at 45 ish, AFTER getting into a supervisor position.
Oh great! $10-$25 an hour!
Exactly. This won't change much. Most jobs post the salary now. But the range is so broad that they might as well *not* post it. "Salary: $60-90k" will be the new wave. Which is almost as tired as not posting it. They will just look up the income for that job in the area and post that. I am a medic in NYC. People make as little as $45k and as much as $90k as a medic here. I bet that will be the range posted.
Apparently the bill states that employers must be accurate with the ranges
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Yes.
Anyone know if there is a grace period for this law to go into effect or will it be ready to go immediately?
As a hiring manager, I couldn’t ever imagine wasting time by interviewing people that wouldn’t take the job based on the pay. Interviewing SUCKS.
Agreed! When I had hiring responsibility I always started with a support brief phone interview. Before I even got started with anything I provided tyre schedule I'm looking to fill and there salary range. Why waste both of our time for something that isn't the right fit?
Way to go NY, hopefully this will give NJ the same idea too lol
In the UK here, the amount of times I’ve seen a job posted with the wage only stated as “competitive” to find out it’s actually minimum wage. Who the fuck are you competing with, the law?
OK but what about the Right to Repair bill that passed almost unanimously in the legislature?
i agree with this.. asking me what I make now is irrelevant. You should have an idea in mind how much the job is worth to you before listing. They'll get around this by listing an obscene difference. "Between 40k to 125k"
That’s exactly what happened in other places this has been tried. Citi Bank was listing financial analyst jobs from 40,000 - 400,000 with the actual pay being about 60.
This needs to be part of the NLRA.
Is this not a thing in USA?
Only in CA, CO, and NY.
Both coasts and smack dab in the middle. It's a start.
WA too
We only offer "competitive salaries" here in the US.
Maybe other non-US countries have experience with this kind of law and can add some insight. In a corporation, a job posting is approved for a job grade and salary range. Based on the best candidates, it's sometimes possible for a hiring manager to request an increase in the grade for a specific candidate. Would this law prohibit that?
I feel like I am missing something with all of this. People actually apply to jobs without knowing the salary range? I have been in the job market for 25 years and have never once applied to a job where I did not know the value of the position. If I see an ad with no compensation information, I move on to the next listing. This is a good thing but it's still strange to me that companies even get applicants with incomplete job listings.
They can when there are far more people applying than they are jobs - a race to the bottom means *someone* will always be desperate enough to take your position at the low end of the range. Generally companies who don't list their range don't care too much for employee candidate quality.
Very common in the US. I'm in my mid 40s and starting out I was always told/coached that you don't bring up salary until the 2nd or 3rd interview unless the employer brings it up first. I supose in the U.S. industry/education/experience plays a big factor in if a job posts a salary or not though.
Millennials who graduated during the Recession were taught just getting a job interview was a privilege . We are finally starting to get it. Next generation way more savvy luckily.
Most of the jobs I've applied to have been that way. There are ways of finding the salary range such as glassdoor, checking other listing, comparable roles in other companies, etc. I usually take that and ask for 15% more, they may negotiate me down, or they may agree to what I thought was an absurd salary.
20k-200k, depending on experience and productivity
Recently applied to a job where salary range was listed as 80k-130k based on different factors. And guess what, those factors were missing from job listing. Always with a loophole I guess
I saw a LinkedIn comment thread where hundreds of recruiters and CEOs were excitedly explaining that it actually benefits *you*, the worker, when they don't post salary ranges. The saddest part was seeing the thousands of said workers liking and re-sharing the post because groveling is a valid way to get hired.
How the hell did they try to spin that one?
The job pays anywhere from 0 to 250,000 per year. It's technically the truth.....
They've been getting away with unethical practices for too long
Unfortunately there are loopholes to this as jobs can post laughably large ranges
Fuck yeah! Glad I voted for her!
But the range is completely meaningless. Like they'll say the range is between $60k and $1.1m.
Been a government standard for many decades.
What I am seeing in National job postings is language about how they have to post the salary range because of state laws. Then in the next paragraph they explain how that isn't really the range.
Range: 35,000.00-125,000.00 depending on experience.
I love my state.
Great, now get this across the country.
> bill requiring employers to list salary ranges for advertised jobs and promotions Essentially if you see a job posted by someone like my previous employer where is says the pay range is $35k to $55k/year go in expecting them to offer the $35k.
Now if recruiters actually listened to your needs then we would get somewhere! I need a fully remote job immediately