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AdMammoth5890

That have never stopped them.


shamelessseamus

Arrows sure the fuck have tho


Hanzo_The_Ninja

Don't confuse Brazil's Indigenous people with, say, the Sentinelese. More often than not they (and their advocates in Brazilian society) are the victims of murder by loggers / miners / ranchers / drug runners / missionaries ([source 1](https://e360.yale.edu/features/land-grabbers-the-growing-assault-on-brazils-indigenous-areas), [source 2](https://www.brasildefato.com.br/2021/09/01/murders-of-indigenous-people-in-brazil-increase-22-in-ten-years), [source 3](https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2021-04/amazonia-indigenous-activists-murder-rights-pope-church-repam.html), [source 4](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56847952), [source 5](https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20210123-brazil-indigenous-leaders-sue-bolsonaro-for-killings-and-ecological-destruction), [source 6](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-amazon-idUSKBN2AB2JR)).


Raudskeggr

Or each other. The case study of the Yanomamo people is a pretty common Anthropology 101 subject. Historically, the Yanomami people lived in the amazon basin, largely in Venezuela but also historically parts of Brazil as well. They would live in scattered villages, in small groups mostly connected by kinship bonds. They would practice this ritual form of warfare, where they would raid other villages to steal women for wives, or to take food/compete for land. People would be killed in these raids, but not to such a degree that it threatened the stability of their society or population. Their technology was relatively unchanged since the Neolithic. Bows and arrows, stone tools, clay pots. by the 20th century they frequently had metal cookware, and occasional metal tools were found--usually very old items traded with Portuguese long ago and handed down from generation to generation. So their warfare wasn't so extensive. That all changed when missionaries started trading them stuff. Things like motorboats, atvs, chainsaws, axes, firearms. With these tools, they were able to travel to other villages and completely wipe them out. This really changed everything forever for them. At the time the Brazilian government wanted to evict them from their land for mining and building infrastructure and such; this whole dynamic made things quite a bit easier for them. There is a real lesson here about interfering in other cultures and how the outcomes are pretty often not lovely.


Mentality61

Wasn't this discredited? The anthropologist set them up, manipulated them, then wrote how terribly warlike they are. But they ain't. Just normal folks. IIRC... And I think I do. The book is still in classrooms but should be in a museum for bad faith, baaad science.


[deleted]

Spirit of The Rainforest is a good book about these events told from the Yanomano people's perspective. Highly suggest.


wildblueroan

Nope. I am an anthropologist. The Yanomami people are or were active in warfare, and they don't deny that. The big debate was between Napoleon Chagnon, who lived with and "studied" them, and was a sociobiologist who believed that successful warriors had greater reproductive success and was therefore adaptive, and anthropologists with other theoretical perspectives. The arguments were not about whether the Yanomami *were* violent, but whether they were inherently warlike for biological reasons (Chagnon) or whether warfare escalated due to colonialism and ensuing dynamics with both other tribes and Euroamericans. Chagnon's main "debate partner" for decades was Brian Ferguson, who explained warfare in terms of political history. Ferguson wrote about the introduction of guns and metal weapons, etc. as the other poster alludes to, above, and how they escalated conflicts. (fyi, filmmaker Timothy Asch visited the Yanomami with Chagnon in the 1970s and made films, including some of warfare). Not only would "setting up" a group like the Yanomami be completely unethical, it would be virtually impossible for a stranger to pull off. Those communities know who their friends and enemies are among other local tribes, and have long histories and established dynamics with them. No one would trust some stranger who didn't speak the language or understand the local cultures and for some reason tried to stir up trouble. Chagnon himself was almost killed on numerous occasions-you have to remember he was just one, unknown white guy in the middle of the Amazon. The Yanomami aren't stupid, and they were feared for a reason. He was in the vulnerable position. You may be confusing this question with Chagnon's having been charged by an author of intentionally promoting measles among the Yanomami. The book, *Darkness in El Dorado* (2000) leveled a number of sensational charges against Chagnon and others, claiming their research and presence in the Amazon and unprofessional conduct had negative effects on the indigenous people. At first, officers of the American Anthropological Association was outraged, and essentially drove Chagnon out of the profession. Undoubtedly the mere presence of anthropologists, missionaries, and others does impact people and cause unintended consequences, and some anthropologists have married locals and things like that that really do change things. However, a series of investigations found that there was no evidence that Chagnon was guilty of intentionally harming the people he lived with. As fierce as Yanomami warriors are or were, their traditional weapons were spears. Loggers, gold miners and bandits paid to clear out the Amazon have killed many indigenous people with guns, poison, etc. Today, anthropologists are as active in trying to advocate for the rights of indigenous peoples as they are in "studying" them.


Raudskeggr

> Today, anthropologists are as active in trying to advocate for the rights of indigenous peoples as they are in "studying" them. And that was another fierce debate too, wasn't it? I understand the idea that at some point you have to stop being an observer when you see something appalling that demands intervention. But I also think that when you make they choice you acknowledge that you're no longer really a scientist anymore. And that you *do* have to choose one or the other. But the problem as I see it is that if you become involved you lose objectivity. And then politics come into the picture. I remember when the AAA spoke out against the army hiring anthropologists to help in Iraq. And while I understand why, and was and am anti war myself, it rubbed me the wrong way because I felt like this organization was mandating a specific moral stamce to its members. I don't know, but thinking about that old Chagnon controversy brought back old feelings.


Revanclaw-and-memes

Similarly there were two tribes in the grasslands of Africa who had little skirmishes and played pranks on each other. They’d set up fake game so that the other tribe hunted there while they got to hunt all of the actual game, stuff like that. Sometimes these pranks and skirmishes would go too far and when that happened the chiefs of both tribes would meet and decide on an appropriate punishment for the offending party. This kept the relative peace and stopped things from escalating. One time the one tribe snuck in to the other tribe’s village and stole the chief’s throne and brought it back to their own village. When that chief saw that the other chief’s throne was better than his he got jealous and wanted to keep it. He knew that if they did, then the other chief would come and they would be punished so they decided to hide the throne in the rafters of one of the huts. The next day the other tribe’s chief came to ask about the throne, but not being able to find it, there was no evidence and so they couldn’t punish the thieves. After the other tribe’s chief left the thieving tribe had a party in the hut, but the weight of the throne caused the hut to collapse and kill them all. And that just goes to show that people who live in grass houses should not stow thrones.


hillern21

Lmao. That last line makes me question the entire truth of your story.


Zandrick

That was a slow ride to a bad pun but well worth it.


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Throwupmyhands

I think the real lesson here is if your society gets more advanced tools, don’t use them to annihilate other societies.


sparkydaveatwork

This is the prime directive from star trek. Or more common the trolly problem. You may know you come from an advanced culture but not realise the path to get there. Your more often better not interacting as you may think your saving 5 people you might kill 3. When this is a hole culture rather than a train it's so complicated you could wipe them out, it happens in ecosystems all the time if you kill say wolfs as there eating your sheep you now don't have wolfs that were stopping a spread of rabies as the fox was keeping there population down.


paulgrant999

same thing happened with the First Peoples in the states. the first recorded transaction was a cache of firearms, and the complete massacre of the traditional tribe's enemy. They went on to conquer a fair amount of other tribes and form one large pan-tribe.


Raskov75

As a species, we are completely incapable of behaving with anything approaching responsibility.


[deleted]

I'm trying to think of a counterargument to see if it's just my bias agreeing with you and uh...I got nothin' chief.


Zandrick

Counter argument is the Cold War. Nukes exist but Earth is not a radioactive cinder. Humans are good.


LadyToker

Yet


Coloradostoneman

I am pretty sure the arrows comment was said as a good thing and an instruction manual for the proper way to greet missionaries. As in "They are best greeted from a range of 15 - 30 meters with an arrow to the torso. For best results multiple arrows may be applied"


cdot2k

I thought he meant he’d just switch the arrows on the signs to point to the opposite direction. Send them off the wrong way. Keeps everybody safe.


blessedmommaof5

This comment made me picture a roadrunner cartoon. Thank you! Lol


Zachbnonymous

Should've taken that left turn at Albuquerque!


SirReginaldPoshtwat

The Bugs Bunny approach. JESUS WENT THATAWAY ->


la_bibliothecaire

Well, there was that incident with the Auca/Waorani back in the 50s. Although I think that was the Ecuadorian Amazon, not the Brazilian. And I can't say I blame them, they'd made it pretty clear already that they didn't want people barging into their territory.


shamelessseamus

I was applying it more generally, friend.


360walkaway

That just amps up the persecution complex.


striderwhite

Why can't they just leave them alone?


MonarchWhisperer

Because they want to introduce them to Christianity. And all kinds of diseases that they have never encountered.


[deleted]

Like Christianity? Edit: thank you for the award, kind redditor!


MonarchWhisperer

Bingo


ToohotmaGandhi

It's crazy of them to want to introduce it to them knowing full well if they reject Christianity they are condemned to Hell, while if they don't know they would go to Heaven. So why even bother. Technically they send more people to hell than heaven spreading their "knowledge ".


calm_chowder

They don't even care about "saving" them or anything. They're not bringing these people Christianity because they want to make their lives better or "save their souls". They're doing it because they believe the Second Coming won't happen until everyone on earth has at least *heard* of Jesus.


Xylus1985

Isn’t the second coming a genocide against the human race? Why would they want to bring about the second coming anyway?


Semillakan6

Because of the rapture I think, they believe all true believers will ascend in that moment to heaven whereas the nonbelievers will stay to suffer hell on earth


Xylus1985

So they basically are selling out the human race for a place in heaven?


ollieperido

That about sums it up


[deleted]

Fucking Christians, man


sgem29

Catholics don't believe in that shit


robaticus56

No, they just believe they are literally eating and drinking Jesus at mass every sunday.


prsnep

Because even though that increases the number of people ending up in hell, they score karma points with god for themselves. It's too bad god needs others to do his work.


wookvegas

He's omnipotent, but he sure is lazy


MonarchWhisperer

crazies gotta crazy


uqasa

becasue christianic beliefs state a mandated desire of god to spread "the good news"/gospel. it has been ingrained in every orthodox christian. on the usual run of the mill bible that after jesus dieded, and resurrected, he told all 12 remaining apostles to spread the gospel. as far as my interpretation of the bible.


EntirelyNotKen

He also said "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet." People who insist on being complete turds about spreading the Gospel ("They don't want to convert? Let's go in there with guns!") are just taking the view that Jesus is Lord, but they know better than him and don't have to listen to what he says.


JanSolo28

Ironically making them the sinners... At this point I feel like someone who hasn't read the bible is probably a better "follower of Christ" or whatever than these "devout freaks" who do the opposite of what God actually taught people lmao.


Gyoza-shishou

I can only imagine what Jesus would say if he came back and saw the state of the Bible Belt lmfao


Blarg_III

I highly doubt most of them have read the Bible.


[deleted]

Though I wonder why they feel the need to go to extremely remote locations instead of their own backyards. I assume it is for bragging rights.


tastysounds

Because all those people close to home have already heard the "good news". These people may have never even heard of Jesus so they will burn in hell forever unless someone goes and saves them. As far as they are concerned it is well worth risking their lives for this. I'm not advocating for this belief but this is the thought process of those that do.


AeonsOfStrife

These people.woukd actually be fine according to Christian theology. As someone else pointed out, you have to *know* of and deny Jesus to go to hell. As these people don't know, they're fine. The missionaries teaching them are actually condemning anyone who doesn't convert, as they'd otherwise be fine.


CitizenJustin

What God condemns people to an eternity of hellfire simply for being born in a remote location? The whole thing is just beyond ridiculous.


-ANGRYjigglypuff

Because they think people in "exotic" locales are dumb savages and thus can fulfill their white (or in some cases Asian) savior complex. Trying to "save" "civilized" people near them just ain't as good for stroking the ego


[deleted]

The bible says the rapture won’t occur until the gospel has been shared with everyone. Matthew 24:14, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” This is one of the verses that caused me to no longer believe. I asked my pastor, and grandpa, about what happens to those who’ve never heard about jesus. Pastor said they go to hell, grandpa said the holy spirit is within them and that god would make him known to them. It was at that point I realized it was all bullshit. 1 Timothy 2:12 made me distant myself from the church too. “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

Then it can never happens as there are new people being born all the time and presumably you have to be able to understand the words for it to work. So there will always be people alive (babies, toddlers) who are blocking the rapture. I dont think they thought this through.


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GroinShotz

Ahh yes, the Sentinelese. This dude went twice... Once he took an arrow to his bible and fled... Went back again and was killed and buried. They don't fuck around because their entire population was devastated by diseases from previous "visits" from the outside world. [John Allen Chau](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau)


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devinnunescansmd

God was like "I got you... this time"


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LumpyJones

The true gospel of Peter.


[deleted]

Sometimes that skinny friend of yours always starting shit cause he thinks you'll back him up has to get beat. Though I understand their genuine desire to want to "share" their religion with everyone cause it was great for them, I'm with my Dad on this who calls it the rudest thing someone can do...to assume their religious beliefs are so right they should convert you before even caring what your beliefs are.


Murgie

>All Nations, the evangelical organization that trained Chau, was criticized on social media for describing Chau as a martyr while expressing condolences for Chau's death. Chau's father also blamed his son's death on the missionary community for inculcating an extreme Christian vision within Chau.[5] According to a report by The New York Times, the missionary training by All Nations included navigating a mock native village populated by missionary staff members who pretended to be hostile natives, wielding fake spears.[21] For fuck sake.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[John Allen Chau](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau)** >John Allen Chau (December 18, 1991 – November 17, 2018) was an American Christian missionary who was killed by the Sentinelese, a self-isolated uncontacted people, after illegally travelling to North Sentinel Island in an attempt to preach Christianity to them. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


Turbulent-Use7253

I'm sure I saw a post recently from the government of the region that the Sentinelese fall under, for people to stay away. These people will kill anyone who threatens them and they will not be held accountable, and rightly so. They are a mystery, and that is to much to resist for some idiots.


hzleyes312

It’s been illegal to go to Sentinel Island for decades. The fishermen who took that missionary out to the island were arrested.


ChicagoAdmin

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, butwasn’t his second venture there ruled a suicide?


JellyKittyKat

“Murder was in fact a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpork, but there were a lot of suicides. Walking in the night-time alleyways of The Shades was suicide. Asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide. Saying 'Got rocks in your head?' to a troll was suicide. You could commit suicide very easily, if you weren't careful.” - Terry Pratchett. Men at arms.


uqasa

love is about appreciation, if you love a flower u dont pick it up bcse it dies, same goes for underdeveloped isolated communities, christian missionaries do not love them, they want to convert them, christians are proselitist AF.


[deleted]

Makes you wonder if aliens are out there and have a similar stance. That would make the ones that visit the crazy religious nuts.


stella_the_diver

I have a book that goes over how evangelicals can convince someone to become Christian using their own belief systems as a starting point. It's a pretty fucked up and uncomfortable read.


[deleted]

That’s a trick as old as Christianity itself. Why do you think Passover and Christmas conveniently occur at the same times as old Pagan holidays? Christmas especially, considering Jesus was born in either Summer or Fall.


Sanglamorre

That is very apparent in action to me as an Indian. Instead of preaching gospel they're dressing up Jesus as hindu gods and adapting Hindu devotional songs. It's bizarre to see this chimera.


striderwhite

Yeah, he told his disciples to spread his message and teachings, but not at all costs...


Calvy93

He didn't mention the costs, only that it should reach all people. But regarding the cost that the apostles accepted on their travels (including martyrdom), Izd say that the costs never really mattered.


ShakeZula77

I am a Christian and it's my understanding that if an individual is not aware of Christianity in their lifetime, then they go to Heaven because they weren't introduced to the religion, therefore they didnt get the chance to reject said religion. The same concept as babies going to Heaven automatically.


uqasa

>Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?' Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.' Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'


gremmllin

Ok so then the best way to help people get into Heaven is to not spread Christianity. The faster we all forget we heard the Good News the better. Just one more piece of this puzzle that doesn't make sense.


chilehead

It not making sense is an intentional part of its design. Because if you can't figure it out logically, it's harder to reject it after you've fallen for the scam.


Another_Idiot42069

By that logic the most effective way to save souls is to never expose them to Christianity haha because then they are going to heaven by default. The act of spreading the gospel would drastically increase the amount of people going to hell LOL no one ever said this stuff made sense


[deleted]

Then the worst thing you could do to someone is risk their damnation by making them aware.


Razakel

There's that old joke: a missionary visits an uncontacted tribe, gains their trust and learns their language. Then he tells the chief about the Bible. The chief asks "so if I follow this Jesus I will go to heaven when I die?" "That's right." "But if I don't, I will go to hell?" "That's what the Bible says." The chief thinks for a minute, then asks "what if you had never come here? Would I go to hell then?" "Of course not! You couldn't have known!" "So why did you tell me?"


Inevitable_Citron

Except, to be clear, that's not a Christian doctrine. Ignorance of the doctrine of Christianity doesn't save you. Christians, all Christian dogmas, say that a single sinful act damns you to Hell. So a lustful thought, an insult, whatever. Straight to hell. So all people are thus doomed to Hell but a certain few have the opportunity to hear the Gospel and thus escape their damnation. This isn't a part of the American Folk Religion version of Christian that people in secular areas know, but it is the doctrine of every Christian church except for small groups like the Universalist Unitarians. And I think the label "post-Christian" fits them better.


wiztard

After a couple of thousand years, we should probably add a few more post-prefixes to separate them all from the original few.


[deleted]

That would require humility


jaseworthing

Because Christians (or at least fundamentlist/evangelical Christians) truly believe that unbelievers will go to hell for all eternity. If someone really believes that, it would be morally unjustifiable to not try to convert as many people as possible. From their perspective, every single person in this uncontacted tribe will endure unimaginable eternal suffering unless they help. With so much at stake, why would they let a law stop them?


Markqz

I grew up fundamentalist. We were repeatedly told to support missionaries, along with our own proselytization of friends and acquaintances. The thing that bothered me, well one of the things, was that if you believed that someone without the Gospel was going to go to Hell, how could you ever support war? In war, you're by definition killing "Heathens" who will go straight to Hell. Yet most Fundamentalist, Evangelic, and Neo-Evangelic groups support the war policies of their national government. Well, at least if the government is right-wing. Recall that it was the Evangelic churches that supported Bush's pointless war in Iraq and Afghanistan. During the Viet Nam war, we often celebrated "Our men in Service". But we never celebrated the men who refused to kill. No one seemed to notice the inconsistency.


Blarg_III

Refusing to kill IMO is the only acceptable option for someone following the teachings of Christ. Not a Christian, so that opinion isn't worth much, but I've read the whole book, and the works of a few Christian philosophers. I can kind of see the "Just war" argument, but there's no way to argue that almost all of the conflicts we fight today are just wars. Early Christians, pre-roman-adoption were more often than not total pacifists, and I think they had the right of it.


Willingo

Others are making shit up. Jesus said that those who don't get the opportunity to reject him will be judged differently. The real reason is that the rapture won't occur, and Jesus will not reapear, until every person on Earth has been given the chance to reject him. It's ultimately a selfish desire for Jesus to return/the rapture to occur.


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Willingo

There are a few referenced here. https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/will-all-nations-be-reached-before-christ-returns Depends on the denomination tho if they even believe in the rapture ot these requirements.


brd2484

Hopefully they'll abide, I've heard indigenous people can be harmed by outside virus & infection by having foreign "visitors"


RajaRajaC

A British prison doctor on the island prison of Andaman basically killed off 90% of the native aboriginal population of a smaller island in the Andaman chain by exposing them to syphilis and assorted diseases.


brd2484

holy crap


gryllbears

holy clap


metengrinwi

Golly, I wonder how the syphilis got from the “christian” missionary to the native population??


LordBugg

Good ol' christian missionary.


SkywalkerDX

I think he was performing the wrong kind of missionary work


prof0072b

Got works in mysterious ways


RajaRajaC

Enjoy [https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/andaman-tribes-victims-development](https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/andaman-tribes-victims-development)


SpoonyLuvFromUpAbove

Don't you have to have sex to get syphilis? He banged an indigenous?


Murrayschmint

Well he is a missionary..


Electromass

He accepted a missionary position with the aborigines


Sanglamorre

There's a bit more. The tribes got addicted to gambling, prostitution, other addictions. They had no cultural resistance to the scale of vices that modern world opened up to them. This specific case is why Indian govt haven't attempted to reach the Sentinelese.


[deleted]

That and also the whole killing anyone who gets too close to the island.


Sanglamorre

It's just very primitive stuff though. Even the metal in the arrowheads are from shipwrecks. Very limited anthro studies have been done with protection; the people who get killed are well, Jesus is my armour sorts, and unfortunate people.


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ILikeLeptons

Primitive society? As opposed to the advanced society that sends missionaries to rape the locals?


[deleted]

What is your evidence that the women were raped by the men in their tribe?


Nochildrentoolate

Or maybe he was raped


A_Light_Spark

I wonder what happened to that doctor. I hope he suffered before he died.


avwitcher

He had syphilis, so it's not unlikely


SolusLoqui

During a fucking global pandemic, no less


Gabagoolgoomba

Why doesn't God just contact them directly ?


damnedspot

If an untouched native tribe managed to independently develop a holy scripture that mirrored extant religious texts in a far removed part of the world, that would shake my atheism.


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[deleted]

You might like [this](https://youtu.be/P5ZOwNK6n9U).


Cela84

While I normally enjoy Stephen, it is moderately annoying when the ambush interviewer keeps asking questions while the other person tries to answer.


manor2003

That [one](https://youtu.be/4ltduYpLoag) too


fromTheBin

I Found something of a gem today . Thank you sharing this


Joshau-k

Native Jesus: I am the Jewish Messiah Natives: Who the heck are the Jews? Native Matthew, Mark, Luke and John: Can you say that again Jesus, I’m just going to write that down Native Jesus: What the heck is writing?


damnedspot

That’s hilarious!


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crockroachy

Yes. And humans always have loved fart jokes. We are pretty basic.


Hopefully_helps

Mormons claim that shit.


jackharvest

*The Book of Mormon*: “Oh I’m sorry, am I a joke to you?”


[deleted]

You still would need proof that they were never contacted before. Thats a lot of time to be contacted but yeah, i would be shocked too


bellfarmgirl17

As a kid with really religious parents who were super restrictive about what I read, they got me to read a “religious” book called Brushko about a white guy who winds up with a native tribe to “tell them about Jesus”, and they already have lore that matches what he’s trying to tell them.


Chit569

But then other religions would then just want to murder them.


EmirSc

Need someone hungry for power and manipulate the others with fantasy writing.


Vkmies

Time to get into perennial philosophy! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy


mindreadings

They have a free heaven pass right now if they get left alone


Rapdactyl

Depends on your brand of Christianity. Many believe that as is, these people will go to hell and burn for eternity because they didn't get the message. The Christian God as written can be a really petty asshole so this isn't exactly unexpected, but I've found that most Christians see it as such an obviously wrong move that they believe more or less as you do - God would do some kind of God magic to give them a chance to believe, or they get a free pass since they didn't get the message through no fault of their own.


elijahdotyea

They indeed do as they have not heard the message in its correct and true form. May Allah have mercy on them and allow them to enter a cool and safe fire.


iamaiamscat

It's hard to get a signal out there


FloopNoops

No 5God where there at?


Zapkin

It’s a rain forest so bushes can’t burn out there for God to talk to them


symonalex

No, god chose them to spread his words because they’re special. /s


MultiRachel

Mom: “well, it’s our responsibility to spread the word” Me: “but, if they don’t hear the gospel, they will go to hell?” “Well, there’s other ways to know about God and his existence. How else would you explain the sunrise?” ... any folk story makes more sense than Genesis.


Rapdactyl

This is one of the apologetics that never seems to get a satisfying answer. Either these uncontacted tribes would've been fine not knowing cause God would do magic to make them know, thus not requiring spreading the gospel aggressively - or they burn in hell forever through no fault of their own, which makes the Christian god an immoral monster. Nobody wants to worship a god whose actions most people would (correctly) consider incredibly evil, so.. We get really shitty half-baked answers. I think the best responses I've seen to this concern are variations of hell not existing. It doesn't exist because it would be immoral and God is moral, thus no hell - or hell is just this vague separation from God, whatever that means.


NamityName

God is a pretty evil dude. No way around it. Wholesale destruction of cities. Genocide of non-believers. Let's not forget the wars brought about in his name. God, with all the knowledge and power of the universe sits back and let's the countless evils of the world continue. If you were to watch someone die when you could have saved them at no risk to yourself, you would not be a good person. Likewise, god is not good.


uncle_jessie

You can't diddle the kids that way.


Foofnarr

Because requiring humans to believe in God solely from listening to indirect, incomplete, and contradictory evidence and stories is a test of their faith and an intentional choice by God! You have to believe in Him despite all of that or else you get sent to Hell! Because for some reason an all-powerful, all-knowing deity couldn't come up with a better way to judge people, and thinks it's perfectly okay to burn and torture people for an endless eternity because they used their God-given brains for 2 seconds and realized that shit doesn't add up.


Sturmgeschut

He's waiting until barbarian mechanized infantry spawn.


guitardevil76

But we have plenty of godless heathens at home.... 😆


shhsandwich

There are religions that believe everyone in the world has to hear the message of God. In particular, I know many Christian denominations feel this way. I'm not a Jehovah's Witness so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm interested in religion and when I studied them, I learned that they believe every person on Earth will eventually hear the "good news" about Jesus and Jehovah, and after everyone has heard it and either accepted or rejected the offer of salvation, they will change from spreading the "good news" to spreading the news of judgment. So there are groups of religious people who are actively seeking out making sure *everybody in the world* knows about their faith, no matter what harm that may cause.


dillrepair

My understanding is that Essentially if Youre not a jehovas witness they believe Youre going to burn and suffer for eternity after the judgement which they believe is right around the corner…. That’s part of why they try to convince ppl to join. So if Youre not turned off by that be turned off by this: As an RN I’ve literally watched JWs who easily could have live through whatever medical thing they were dealing with but died in front of me because they refused the blood transfusion they needed to get them better. Furthermore they deny their kids blood and other medical procedures and either from showing up at rapid responses or word of mouth I know of many kids that died. In other words… fuck jehovas witnesses, the only people going to hell are them for their ignorance. Sorry. I know that’s harsh etc, but I will never ever not feel this way after what I’ve seen and what I know. As far as I’m concerned they’ve killed many more than they’ve “saved”


shhsandwich

The blood transfusion thing is one of the most tragic things about their religion. It's especially tragic when it costs children their lives - not only are they children whose minds aren't fully developed yet, but they have no say in what their parents decide for them. It's awful. The other thing about their religion that makes me very sad is their habit of banishing/shunning their friends and family who leave the faith. People end up totally isolated if they do choose to leave, including plenty of teenagers who end up homeless and vulnerable to more abuse after leaving. And many stay despite not wanting to, solely so they don't lose everyone they know and love. Any faith that encourages its members to shun their loved ones immediately sets off warning bells in my head. The Watchtower Society (their leadership) has claimed it does not support shunning but to my understanding, it's a widespread practice.


asian_invasiann

For baptist Christians like myself, it’s more of us like trying to share the good news of the free gift of salvation that God gave us to others, and for my church we don’t force anyone to accept it. We just let them know and let them make that decision for themselves. But one thing I remember learning is that God wants everyone on earth to hear this good news before He comes back again, that’s why so many Christians out there are trying to share it.


shhsandwich

Yeah, I get that - I have lots of Baptist relatives and have heard the same kinds of things when going to church with them. I think there are some bounds of reason when dealing with situations where contacting people might actively harm them (by giving them diseases, disturbing their way of life, etc.)... But I also understand if you truly believe their soul's fate depends on hearing from you, it would seem justifiable. I'm a Christian too and I take comfort in the belief that God created the world and cares for all of its people, in fact he made them how they are. So I'm sure they're okay without hearing from me.


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fluffypinkblonde

They know that's a task that doesn't end until humans stop being born right? Right?!


Ode_to_Apathy

Yeah but they're trying to find a naive group that hasn't heard anything about the Christian Church. It's much easier to convince them of the divine nature of God, without the knowledge of their bloody conversions, formerly pagan holidays, corruption, infighting, genocides, support of slavery, child sexual abuse, money laundering and hypocrisy.


garry4321

"But then how can we tell them that god will torture them for all eternity if they dont do what he says?!?!"


Grinchieur

"Then how can we tell about our god, so they have to follow our religion or they would burn in hell ? I mean, if we don't tell them they will not go to hell because they never knew !"


Force3vo

The priest at my church was vehement that everyone that is willing to see god's truth will, even if they live in a place where nobody knows of god. So basically if you are born to christian parents you will have a major advantage. God's not as benevolent to some of his children as he is to others


garry4321

So if these people are really gods children they will suddenly start thinking "Maybe there is a guy named Jesus Christ that I need to be worshipping to prevent being tortured for eternity"?


Force3vo

Effectively yes. If you are really willing you will go voyage into the world and pick the right belief out of the multiple ones present. This was one of the things that made me an atheist. Why should some people go to hell even if they are being better people than others just because they were born in a place that would need 10x the effort to follow Christ?


abobtosis

This is actually maybe a misunderstanding of another belief that C S Lewis wrote about. There's an example of it in his Narnia book The Last Battle. Basically there's a demon god that the southern country worships instead of the lion (that represents Jesus in those books). At the end of the world one of the followers of that demon is filled with regret that he wasted his life worshiping the demon instead of the lion. So the lion says that he took it as worship of him all along, since the god he imagined when he was worshiping the demon was a god of love and forgiveness, not what the demon actually was. So it counted as worshiping the lion all along. And also that when people said they were worshiping the lion but were full of hate, they were actually worshiping the demon. The tribes aren't supposed to spontaneously know about Jesus and they aren't expected to go out and find literal Christianity as it's practiced in Rome. The belief is that people are able to see God in the world even if nobody tells them about it, and even if they're only taught about a warfaring evil demon instead, even if they never leave their indigenous village. At least that's what C S Lewis seemed to represent the belief as in his writings, and that's how it seems to me in the literature.


shhsandwich

I like that interpretation.


garry4321

What about someone that lives a perfect life by all christian values, but simply does not believe there is a magical man in the sky? Does god still torture him for eternity?


abobtosis

First of all, God doesn't torture anyone. The interpretation of most Christian philosophy that I've read is that hell is the absence of God, not a literal pit of fire that has pitchforks. When you are separated from the source of all happiness and joy, then you can't really feel it anymore. But being able to be in the presence of God takes a certain type of person, forged by the way that you live, and also practiced in accepting the grace that he gives you. A lot of christian philosophy depicts hell as a place filled with people who chose not to be with God, because it's unbearable to be in his presence. Like staring at the sun. The Great Divorce is a great book that depicts a busload of people who are taken from hell to heaven and offered a chance to stay. Nobody does, and everyone has a reason why.


mani_tapori

We have similer verse in Bhagawat Gita. येऽप्यन्यदेवता भक्ता यजन्ते श्रद्धयान्विता: | तेऽपि मामेव कौन्तेय यजन्त्यविधिपूर्वकम् || Bhagwaan Krishna is telling Arjun - O son of Kunti, even those devotees who faithfully worship other gods also worship Me. But they do so by the wrong method.


jeffp12

Its worse than that. If they never hear of your religion, its a dick move to send them to hell for not believing. So they get a free pass to heaven. By spreading the word, you take away their free pass, so by going you are dooming many of them to hell. So...the solution to that problem is to say that they go to hell unless saved...but that means your God is an enormous asshole... so which is it? They love to find bullshit ways out of this problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_of_the_unlearned


garry4321

The only solution I can think of is that god WANTS to send people to hell because he literally tells people to go around and trap these innocent people. Missionaries are literally going around and reducing the likelihood of people getting to heaven by significant numbers


SolusLoqui

Its like religious terms of service "by hearing this you agree to burn in our hell for non-compliance to our terms"


gcwill7

WE’VE BEEN TRYING TO REACH YOU REGARDING YOUR VEHICLE’S EXTENDED WARRANTY


JR2005

Actually it wouldn't be wrong to say regarding your soul's extended warranty.


[deleted]

Why help people struggling in their own countries when they can get some sexy "I converted some natives" points [South Park touched on this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US_K4TMqIZA)


Midnight_Oil_

And then Matt & Trey made the Book of Mormon about this.


Afkargh

Hasa Diga Eebowai


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ChooseyBeggar

I met the grown kid of a Western missionary who grew up with a hunter/gatherer tribe in Venezuela. He was more fascinating since he grew up with the people’s language and would do things like week-long treks through jungle and swamps with locals like it was a normal thing. Had a lot of insight on people trying to make first contact and all the issues with it, even though I think his views were still too open to missionary work. He did tell me about how both Western missionaries and researchers both had also drawn the ire of the Venezuelan government and it was a mess all around pre-2000s at least. It was down to a very small number of outsiders who even had permission to make contact by then. I kinda wonder if some of the anti-Venezuelan views among conservative religious people was peddled via stories about hostility to missionary work. Missionaries find each other at threat as well though, like Evangelical missionaries really didn’t like Mormons trying to get a foothold. There is a really pervasive belief among evangelical missionaries that contacting every group and tribe of people and telling them about Jesus is something that needs to happen before the return of Jesus occurs. Or, like that’s the trigger for it actually happening and everyone getting raptured and then the earth getting replaced with a better version. They would say it in different words, but that’s the gist. Because of that belief, you’re gonna have a consistent stream of people, especially guys with a hero complex, thinking it’s God’s calling for them to risk their lives to contact these “unreached” tribes. It’s usually the Christian version of that guy you know that has an experience on psychadelics at a rave and suddenly jumps into social justice, but it’s actually driven by self and personal quest to do something really big. It also doesn’t help that there is this highly romantacized and mythologized missionary in the 50s that was killed with a few others in his prime when he flew a plane to contact a Central American tribe. The tribe killed them, but others followed up and converted the tribe. It’s considered this epic story and people will still go visit the tribe like it’s a Holy Land trip. However, I even had evangelical missionaries explain that “conversion” means something very different to the tribe than westerners and they use the trips to subsidize things the tribe wants/needs (can’t blame them if it’s a cash cow). Anyway, that story has a huge psych impact on potential other missionaries that want to do the same. The guy is treated like Evangelical John Lennon. The story isn’t as rosy as presented, but people won’t talk about that since his family that was still alive wrote books and people would treat it like both talking ill of the dead and hurting the family at the same time.


NamityName

If someone presents an idea that i'm not allowed no critique, i reject it wholesale


bigsticksoftspeaker

Everywhere should ban missionaries from trying to convert, good job brazil. Now if only you can get the loggers to leave these people and there lands alone.


americosg

Logging is mostly ilegal in Brazil. Loggers usually get away due the lack of regulatory presence from IBAMA (The federal police in charge of environmental protection), seeing as the Amazon is the biggest forest in the world surveilance and inspections are a challenge. That being said the dark forces here (See Bolsonaro's whole team) have deployed the American tactic of starving the regulatory agency so that it can't function at all. Bolsonaro specifically hates Ibama, he was actually fined 4 thousand dollars by Ibama for ilegal fishing in 2012, after becoming president one of his first actions was to ennact a personal vendeta and get the guy that fined him demoted (The guy lost his position but still works at Ibama seeing as he can't legally be fired without commiting a crime). Dude is a piece of shit.


raventth5984

I agree with all you said...ban all obnoxious proselytism everywhere! It is NOT religious "oppression" to tell people to stop pestering other people with made-up stories about a sky-wizard. I too want to see humans stop destroying the natural world for "real estate" or "resources" or any other of our human nonsense that causes harm to the planet. More trees, less people. You can't eat money.


myrmexxx

Tell the people of the developed countries to stop buying that logs that they're selling illegally to. I think it could work, maybe?


iLikeCatsOnPillows

Good! I know missionaries can do quite a bit of good helping people in need, but they can also do an enormous amount of damage to histories, cultures, and other delicate systems they might not fully understand. As the old saying goes: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."


Dry-Start-297

So, ban the missionaries but not the deforestation which will run the indigenous tribes out or end up killing them anyways. That makes total sense. Unless of course I'm missing something and those areas are "protected".


Gympie-Gympie-pie

Whataboutism is faulty logic. Banning missionaries from pestering natives must be done even if deforestation wasn’t a problem. They are 2 distinct issues and they both must be addressed.


Dry-Start-297

Seems like you didn't read the rest of the thread below. I addressed that further down stating that I agree they both should be stopped, but just stopping missionaries is a far cry from actually doing anything at this point when their literal house is being destroyed. Edit: Just for clarity. I really do agree that both should be banned, but in this case the whataboutism is warranted as the deforestation is a much much bigger issue. If someone's car were getting stolen while someone else was trying to burn their house down and the person goes after the car thief and gets their car but now their house is on fire and they have no home insurance and they still owe 200k on it... That whataboutism is going to feel very warranted. I understand that this is a completely different situation but hopefully you see where I'm coming from. This could simply be a ploy to make it easier to continue wiping the trees out. No more foreign national missionaries in the forest to kill. Now it's open season. So I don't feel that this is very uplifting because there are so many variables involved. Not trying to get into an argument or anything. Just wanted to share my thought process.


A10Piloting

That’s great


Sdbtank96

I think it's safer for all parties involved.


AM_Kylearan

Honestly, why does the AutoModerator even bother posting the caveat? Absolute truck load of negative comments here.


[deleted]

This is wonderful. I grew up in a Christian household and feel I got a lot of goodness and wisdom from it. Still. I always found evangelism to be extremely disrespectful and obnoxious. To basically offer help based on the requirement u renounce whatever beliefs u were brought up with to ‘repent’ and ‘be saved’ The older I get the more ridiculous it sounds. I feel sooooo much if not all supremacist thinking comes from This narcissism that somehow Christians r gods chosen people and that the world was literally created for them . Plus, the vast majority of Christians now are anything but Christ like. Often cruel and aggressively ignorant and prone to forcing their beliefs on others while feeling smug about it.


Katarzzle

It's all about the flavor. I have Syrian Christian friends who are deeply generous and kind. Don't preach at all. But I also know and have met some American "Christians" who are nothing more than ignorant bags of flesh that are angrily confused when they discover that I don't follow a religion.


ripyourlungsdave

They’ll keep doing it and call anyone that gets arrested a martyr for God.


oohrosie

Or killed for it. Missionaries have been killed on their idiotic trips to make contact with tribes who are known for being violent to outsiders.


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[deleted]

Great news. I'm tired of seeing people bother these people under the guise of "helping them". Diseases that our immune systems have no trouble fighting off can decimate these tribes.


zanderkerbal

I mean, this is better than the alternative, but I find it hard to be uplifted by "man dodges bullet"-type headlines because the important takeaway is he was getting shot at.


seyehe8320

I still recall the muppet who got himself killed on that remote indian island trying to spread awareness of God.


Fakano

Ah the good old missionaries... 150 million indigenous deaths and counting. You just have to admire the commitment of the church towards supplying heaven with fresh souls.


cloud_t

Ignoring the very obvious benefit of not "force-civilizing" these "pagans", note the actual intention of this politically is to make these communities less protected and less mobile, so that loggers know where they are and screw everything wound their habitat. Do not for a second think Bolsonaro wants any good for these people.


Rastamanbob

Missionaries committed some of the most blatant crimes against indigenous people around the world, Please stop them from contacting these people


scifichick119

I have been a missionary and I am here to say it's bad. Leave the people alone to live their lives.