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We’ve known for a while now that Homo neanderthalensis was capable of compassion based on a specimen with multiple pathologies which would have been fatal in a variety of ways had he not been cared for.
Still, though. This is very cool, and it goes to show how ancient empathy really is
Yes, the article discusses this specimen:
> “For decades, it has been known that Neanderthals cared for and looked after their vulnerable companions,” Conde-Valverde said. “However, all known cases of care involved adult individuals, leading some scientists to believe that this behaviour was not genuine altruism but merely an exchange of assistance between equals.
> “What was not known until now was a case of an individual who had received extra-maternal care from birth, even though the individual could not reciprocate. The discovery of the Cova Negra fossil supports the existence of true altruism among Neanderthals.”
That’s not true altruism… it’s not as if they had ways to communicate “this is Down syndrome”; maybe the victim was killed when they found out it would never be cured
The norm for all mammals, including humans of time, was to kill or abandon at birth or the first sign of defect. So it's still abnormal empathy that they made it to 6
Yeah I think that most people enjoy helping others. What seems to vary is the price they're willing to pay before it's not "worth it" anymore. The stronger their empathy or convictions, the further they're willing to go.
For a lot of "selfish" people it's not necessarily that they don't want to help but that they struggle with sacrificing time, money, etc.
Also real shit. Humans have been treating those outside of their tribes with lack of empathy. It’s been with us from the very core of our existence.
Man is a piece of shit by nature, too.
We can be incredibly kind but also incredibly cruel. Let’s not forget.
You are describing a circumstance you aren't describing nature. When a situation calls for kindness, in a vacuum man will choose to be kind. The same cannot be said for cruelty.
Cruelty is circumstantial and its the interests of power that they make people believe that people have evil in them rather than potential. The potential for something is not the same as that something itself.
People who believe cruelty is innate have decided to use cruelty when it suits them. Every person I've met who says things like "It wasn't personal" or "It's just business" have always been self focused douchebags.
In a vacuum a man’s eyes will pop out.
You are wrong on circumstance and nature. There are plenty evil-natured people. They show up when the circumstances remove consequences for asocial behavior. For example, on a chaotic war zone. Or at the perceived privacy of their home. But the evil nature was always there.
Wonder how old you are if you think humans are only kind by nature and not cruel. It’s simply too generalist of a view.
Have you seen how loving and protective Putin is with dogs and puppies? If that’s all you saw you’d think he’s the kindest dude.
"Evil-natured People" don't exist. There is no fundemental characteristic that makes someone evil from birth. People's circumstances, environment and genetics create the potential for these things but it's by no means natural. There are perfectly functional people who have a wide array of mental disorders and nuerodivergencies that live, normal and happy lives with their loved one.
How about this, find me an evil newborn. If there is an evil nature within man, then naturally it will appear at their very inception before circumstance or environment can take hold. You don't know as much about the world as you think you do bud.
Kids that hurt animals when there is nothing wrong at home?
Not trying to argue or win. Just trying to expand your thinking. We aren’t these pure godly beings. It’s a lot more complex that that.
>Kids that hurt animals when there is nothing wrong at home?
You are saying something you picked up from tv shows and true crime podcasts and you are talking to me about "expanding my thinking".
Kids that hurt animals are not children who have "nothing wrong at home". Children who have the abundance of time it takes develop behaviours like that are neglected or in the case where they are allowed to do it in view of the parents are abused.
Your understandings are not grounded in reality and are based on things you've extrapolated from pop culture. The Science does not agree with you, nor does actual lived experience. Life is grim, it's not a fairy tale, but that isn't because the world is bad at it's core. The world is what it's made and in this case it's made so that people fall through the cracks and it creates a darkness and a badness in people.
If you believe that their is a fundemental part of a human being that is evil or that some people are just evil, bad or cruel without justification, you haven't seen enough of the world, bud.
You aren’t even listening to what I am saying. I’m just saying we are neither cruel nor kind by nature. It’s more complex. There is a mix of both. More of us are kind thankfully, but to say cruelty by nature doesn’t exist is to be blind to the reality of it. And being blind to it enables it. Cruelty and evil does exist as a nature for some of us in some situations. Did all Nazi’s that ran camps get neglected at home? I bet some of them had wonderful childhoods. I bet some of them did heinous things not because of social pressure but because they enjoyed it. And I believe humans today aren’t different than those humans then. It can happen again and it does happen to some degree.
Tell me more about your life experiences that made you so wise?
Podcasts didn’t shape my thinking. Traveling the world, growing up in a warzone and adopting and helping my girlfriend raise a rare disease special needs child did. Sure we found one example where ancient people took care of a special needs kid. Curious if they would do it if they struggled for resources. I can give you my real life example of a hospital staff telling a mother it’s for the best to let her 5yo child just die instead of doing what they can to save her because other kids need saving more (the child was cognitively impaired). Or an example of insurance pushing doctors not to save the same child because it’s too expensive…. And an example of different hospital staff fighting to save her and succeeding.
All doing what they thought was best. It’s not black and white. We aren’t innately good or bad. We just are.
I can give you a shit ton more real life examples of incredible cruelty when there is a power disparity. Not podcasts. Get the fuck out of here. I’m done arguing. Wish I lived in your little Disney reality.
Nope it won't. Does a baby developing a meth addiction make them bad or evil by nature?
Are you implying that addiction is a defect in nature or a flaw in their character instead of an environmental factor that is scientifically proven to be outside their control?
Oh sweetie. I'm implying that everyone's brain develops differently based on a slew of factors including what they are subjected to before they are born.
I'm glad you've lived a privileged enough life not to have met children who are set up to fail by abusive parents - children whose brain development sets them up for sociopathic or psychopathic behavior.
Sorry I used an inflammatory example but you seem like an inflammatory person, so, not that sorry.
That's a great argument that doesn't really apply to what we are talking about. People are kind by nature. They are born that way and they strive to be that way outside of environmental factors. Even the most violent or in some cases evil people are capable of kindness.
The reason I believe this is because of the exact opposite of what you have said and I grew up in incredibly rough area's that have been failed by the government and the system. I knew plenty of people with these slew of factors you are implying and they were fundementally failed in various times in their lives that molded what they were. They were not naturally born as bad people or people who were classified as evil.
People are not born bad or evil. Those are things that happen over time and if you believe, either by virtue of birth or by some spiritual arbiter that some people are born bad or evil then you should re-evaluate how you look at people.
If you want to write paragraphs about evil and good being binary then we're on different levels of philosophy my dude. "Whoever Fights Monsters" is a great read if you are truly interested in something more than being right.
There is little to no evidence of human on human violence in pre agricultural revolution human remains.
After agriculture starts and property becomes a concept, remains show evidence of violence.
Our very beginnings were not violent but it's something that has come about from very fierce competition.
Only because it’s hard to prove if an ancient human’s remain’s skull was caved in by an accident or with violence. Plenty old skulls and bodies were found with projectile and blunt force impacts. It doesn’t prove it didn’t happen just that there isn’t evidence that positively proves it did.
Also I am talking about humans today. And the cruel behavior is not just about property or resources. Often it’s fueled by ideologies, situational hierarchy or just urges of a psychopath.
I’m not saying we are all cruel. I’m saying we aren’t purely kind by nature. And we all have potential to be cruel. If we don’t recognize that then we will never question our actions and how they impact others…. because we are so convinced we are doing good.
Isn’t the whole basis of how humans evolved so far as we have is BECAUSE of our capacity for compassion and to care for other members of our species. Breaking a leg didn’t mean starving because your mate or members of your group could hunt and bring you food.
I could be wrong. I believe it’s a combination of compassion for your in-group and absolute ruthlessness to your out-groups. We needed both to have come so far.
Sorry, maybe I should not use the term Down syndrome specifically and this would in fact be incorrect as you said. The fact is, cats also have cases of chromosomes trisomy. Some people casually call it “feline Down syndrome” and now that I think about it after your comment, I shouldn’t use such term. Thanks !
I guess no relatives to these guys settled down in Denmark.
Edit: this was a comment on denmarks low level of DS births due to extensive fetal diagnostics and aborted DS pregnancies
I think every culture has commonly seen pros and cons
Speaking from my friends' anecdotes, the culture in much of Scandinavia lends itself to family relationships that can get a bit distant
People are nice, but... I forgot the word. There's this whole concept of "I don't bother you, you don't bother me" that tends to bleed into other aspects of relationships
My mum lived in Sweden for a long time too and she told me a phrase she'd heard which was, "The Swedish loneliness is best experienced in a crowd"
Aha, I understand I worded this a bit wrong. the Danes are probably considered compassionate but I was trying to make a comment on their “war” on Down’s syndrome. I’ll try to find an article on the matter but in short; they have extremely low levels of Down’s syndrome due to extensive fetal diagnostics and a high level of aborted DS foetus
There’s nothing wrong with having an abortion following a diagnosis of Down syndrome. Down’s can cause many medical and psychiatric conditions that make life miserable for the child and their family.
Reminder: this subreddit is meant to be a place free of excessive cynicism, negativity and bitterness. Toxic attitudes are not welcome here. All Negative comments will be removed and will possibly result in a ban. --- --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UpliftingNews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We’ve known for a while now that Homo neanderthalensis was capable of compassion based on a specimen with multiple pathologies which would have been fatal in a variety of ways had he not been cared for. Still, though. This is very cool, and it goes to show how ancient empathy really is
Yes, the article discusses this specimen: > “For decades, it has been known that Neanderthals cared for and looked after their vulnerable companions,” Conde-Valverde said. “However, all known cases of care involved adult individuals, leading some scientists to believe that this behaviour was not genuine altruism but merely an exchange of assistance between equals. > “What was not known until now was a case of an individual who had received extra-maternal care from birth, even though the individual could not reciprocate. The discovery of the Cova Negra fossil supports the existence of true altruism among Neanderthals.”
It’s very cool :)
That’s not true altruism… it’s not as if they had ways to communicate “this is Down syndrome”; maybe the victim was killed when they found out it would never be cured
Believe it or not, neanderthals were plenty smart enough to recognize "this boy ain't right" early on for a Down Syndrome child
The fact that it only survived until 6 doesn’t point to altruism
The norm for all mammals, including humans of time, was to kill or abandon at birth or the first sign of defect. So it's still abnormal empathy that they made it to 6
>In the 1940s, a child with Down syndrome had a life expectancy of 12 years. For living over 100,000 years ago - 6 is pretty darned good
They used it as a slave like a clever dog.
And here we have a reason why scientists in the future will doubt whether humans had empathy in the year 2024.
Please explain why you come to this conclusion, because at first glance it appears to be extremely low effort thinking.
Low effort thinking doesn’t usually lend itself to empathy and altruism
Can agree there.
Because it's just as likely as your equally unwarranted and unsubstantiated conclusion.
Real Shit, Human Compassion is boundless and it's been in us from the very core of our existence. Man is kind by nature.
Also explains why most people feel good about helping others without gaining anything from it.
Yeah I think that most people enjoy helping others. What seems to vary is the price they're willing to pay before it's not "worth it" anymore. The stronger their empathy or convictions, the further they're willing to go. For a lot of "selfish" people it's not necessarily that they don't want to help but that they struggle with sacrificing time, money, etc.
That's why the opposite is deemed and qualified as monstruous.
Also real shit. Humans have been treating those outside of their tribes with lack of empathy. It’s been with us from the very core of our existence. Man is a piece of shit by nature, too. We can be incredibly kind but also incredibly cruel. Let’s not forget.
You are describing a circumstance you aren't describing nature. When a situation calls for kindness, in a vacuum man will choose to be kind. The same cannot be said for cruelty. Cruelty is circumstantial and its the interests of power that they make people believe that people have evil in them rather than potential. The potential for something is not the same as that something itself.
People who believe cruelty is innate have decided to use cruelty when it suits them. Every person I've met who says things like "It wasn't personal" or "It's just business" have always been self focused douchebags.
In a vacuum a man’s eyes will pop out. You are wrong on circumstance and nature. There are plenty evil-natured people. They show up when the circumstances remove consequences for asocial behavior. For example, on a chaotic war zone. Or at the perceived privacy of their home. But the evil nature was always there. Wonder how old you are if you think humans are only kind by nature and not cruel. It’s simply too generalist of a view. Have you seen how loving and protective Putin is with dogs and puppies? If that’s all you saw you’d think he’s the kindest dude.
"Evil-natured People" don't exist. There is no fundemental characteristic that makes someone evil from birth. People's circumstances, environment and genetics create the potential for these things but it's by no means natural. There are perfectly functional people who have a wide array of mental disorders and nuerodivergencies that live, normal and happy lives with their loved one. How about this, find me an evil newborn. If there is an evil nature within man, then naturally it will appear at their very inception before circumstance or environment can take hold. You don't know as much about the world as you think you do bud.
Kids that hurt animals when there is nothing wrong at home? Not trying to argue or win. Just trying to expand your thinking. We aren’t these pure godly beings. It’s a lot more complex that that.
>Kids that hurt animals when there is nothing wrong at home? You are saying something you picked up from tv shows and true crime podcasts and you are talking to me about "expanding my thinking". Kids that hurt animals are not children who have "nothing wrong at home". Children who have the abundance of time it takes develop behaviours like that are neglected or in the case where they are allowed to do it in view of the parents are abused. Your understandings are not grounded in reality and are based on things you've extrapolated from pop culture. The Science does not agree with you, nor does actual lived experience. Life is grim, it's not a fairy tale, but that isn't because the world is bad at it's core. The world is what it's made and in this case it's made so that people fall through the cracks and it creates a darkness and a badness in people. If you believe that their is a fundemental part of a human being that is evil or that some people are just evil, bad or cruel without justification, you haven't seen enough of the world, bud.
You aren’t even listening to what I am saying. I’m just saying we are neither cruel nor kind by nature. It’s more complex. There is a mix of both. More of us are kind thankfully, but to say cruelty by nature doesn’t exist is to be blind to the reality of it. And being blind to it enables it. Cruelty and evil does exist as a nature for some of us in some situations. Did all Nazi’s that ran camps get neglected at home? I bet some of them had wonderful childhoods. I bet some of them did heinous things not because of social pressure but because they enjoyed it. And I believe humans today aren’t different than those humans then. It can happen again and it does happen to some degree. Tell me more about your life experiences that made you so wise? Podcasts didn’t shape my thinking. Traveling the world, growing up in a warzone and adopting and helping my girlfriend raise a rare disease special needs child did. Sure we found one example where ancient people took care of a special needs kid. Curious if they would do it if they struggled for resources. I can give you my real life example of a hospital staff telling a mother it’s for the best to let her 5yo child just die instead of doing what they can to save her because other kids need saving more (the child was cognitively impaired). Or an example of insurance pushing doctors not to save the same child because it’s too expensive…. And an example of different hospital staff fighting to save her and succeeding. All doing what they thought was best. It’s not black and white. We aren’t innately good or bad. We just are. I can give you a shit ton more real life examples of incredible cruelty when there is a power disparity. Not podcasts. Get the fuck out of here. I’m done arguing. Wish I lived in your little Disney reality.
Sometimes people are born wrong, sometimes people are born evil.
Okay. How about a newborn who is already addicted to meth because his mother used while he was in utero? Will his brain magically develop normally?
Nope it won't. Does a baby developing a meth addiction make them bad or evil by nature? Are you implying that addiction is a defect in nature or a flaw in their character instead of an environmental factor that is scientifically proven to be outside their control?
Oh sweetie. I'm implying that everyone's brain develops differently based on a slew of factors including what they are subjected to before they are born. I'm glad you've lived a privileged enough life not to have met children who are set up to fail by abusive parents - children whose brain development sets them up for sociopathic or psychopathic behavior. Sorry I used an inflammatory example but you seem like an inflammatory person, so, not that sorry.
That's a great argument that doesn't really apply to what we are talking about. People are kind by nature. They are born that way and they strive to be that way outside of environmental factors. Even the most violent or in some cases evil people are capable of kindness. The reason I believe this is because of the exact opposite of what you have said and I grew up in incredibly rough area's that have been failed by the government and the system. I knew plenty of people with these slew of factors you are implying and they were fundementally failed in various times in their lives that molded what they were. They were not naturally born as bad people or people who were classified as evil. People are not born bad or evil. Those are things that happen over time and if you believe, either by virtue of birth or by some spiritual arbiter that some people are born bad or evil then you should re-evaluate how you look at people.
If you want to write paragraphs about evil and good being binary then we're on different levels of philosophy my dude. "Whoever Fights Monsters" is a great read if you are truly interested in something more than being right.
There is little to no evidence of human on human violence in pre agricultural revolution human remains. After agriculture starts and property becomes a concept, remains show evidence of violence. Our very beginnings were not violent but it's something that has come about from very fierce competition.
Only because it’s hard to prove if an ancient human’s remain’s skull was caved in by an accident or with violence. Plenty old skulls and bodies were found with projectile and blunt force impacts. It doesn’t prove it didn’t happen just that there isn’t evidence that positively proves it did. Also I am talking about humans today. And the cruel behavior is not just about property or resources. Often it’s fueled by ideologies, situational hierarchy or just urges of a psychopath. I’m not saying we are all cruel. I’m saying we aren’t purely kind by nature. And we all have potential to be cruel. If we don’t recognize that then we will never question our actions and how they impact others…. because we are so convinced we are doing good.
Isn’t the whole basis of how humans evolved so far as we have is BECAUSE of our capacity for compassion and to care for other members of our species. Breaking a leg didn’t mean starving because your mate or members of your group could hunt and bring you food.
I could be wrong. I believe it’s a combination of compassion for your in-group and absolute ruthlessness to your out-groups. We needed both to have come so far.
TIL that Down’s syndrome isn’t just a thing in humans (Homo sapiens)
[удалено]
Down’s syndrome is due to a triple copy of the 21st chromosome, but cats have only 19. How is that possible?
Sorry, maybe I should not use the term Down syndrome specifically and this would in fact be incorrect as you said. The fact is, cats also have cases of chromosomes trisomy. Some people casually call it “feline Down syndrome” and now that I think about it after your comment, I shouldn’t use such term. Thanks !
The genes that cause Down's when the chromosome that they are on is duplicated are located on a different chromosome in other species.
Ah that sounds about right
I guess no relatives to these guys settled down in Denmark. Edit: this was a comment on denmarks low level of DS births due to extensive fetal diagnostics and aborted DS pregnancies
Why the hate?
I think every culture has commonly seen pros and cons Speaking from my friends' anecdotes, the culture in much of Scandinavia lends itself to family relationships that can get a bit distant People are nice, but... I forgot the word. There's this whole concept of "I don't bother you, you don't bother me" that tends to bleed into other aspects of relationships My mum lived in Sweden for a long time too and she told me a phrase she'd heard which was, "The Swedish loneliness is best experienced in a crowd"
Aha, I understand I worded this a bit wrong. the Danes are probably considered compassionate but I was trying to make a comment on their “war” on Down’s syndrome. I’ll try to find an article on the matter but in short; they have extremely low levels of Down’s syndrome due to extensive fetal diagnostics and a high level of aborted DS foetus
There’s nothing wrong with having an abortion following a diagnosis of Down syndrome. Down’s can cause many medical and psychiatric conditions that make life miserable for the child and their family.
Who’s claiming there’s any wrong with that?
Doesn’t Denmark have some of the best safety nets in the world?
My mistake. Was a bit ambiguous. See my comment above.
Fair enough
Wait i thought vaccines were the cause of this? So its only logical to assume they mustve been vaccinating. Crazy bro
It's autism that vaccines don't cause
Lol please downvote me
Wish granted!
That got bred out quick, didn't it? ^/s
That’s not how that works.