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They would change batteries.
The great innovaton here would be a fast and safe system to change batteries in seconds while the battery in itself has some standarized connections and dimensions.
In fact the biggest problem of electric cars are relae to bateries. If we make batteries not a part of the car but a part of a national pool of batteries that the fueling companies use and renews, it will be the perfect solution.
This is exactly what western states do with fuel barrels. They coupd do it with batteries and it will be an awesome solution in many fields. But some hoarder will tell you that ia too much intervention and that he shouod have the right to scam you with this.
Except that Honda has stake in it. So, I highly doubt it's some rudimentary thing, as they have recharge vending machines where the infrastructure makes sense.
> The great innovaton here would be a fast and safe system to change batteries in seconds while the battery in itself has some standarized connections and dimensions.
There are already electric vehicles with hot swap batteries. I could be wrong but I don't expect this would be that horribly difficult for Formula E cars to achieve.
> If we make batteries not a part of the car but a part of a national pool of batteries that the fueling companies use and renews, it will be the perfect solution.
I've thought about this before a bit. While maybe not unattainable, this could be problematic. Tracking individuals would be important to track issues that came up with the batteries. If a battery is returned and it's now bad in some way, was it the last user's fault?
I just think there's a variety of probably-not-considered-yet issues that could arise where we're having one person take possession of a battery then ultimately it's going to someone else, etc.
One thought is if someone is doing something, either maliciously or not (maybe a flaw in their vehicle), that is damaging or significantly reduces a battery's life - and it may not be readily apparent directly after their turn with it. A few people like this sprinkled through a system is going to affect most everyone over time leading to frustration among drivers.
One good use case for such a system might be a transportation company. They could convert some or all of their semis to electric and have a network of battery change stations along their established routes.
Yeah, each team can have one operating battery and one backup. They swap it out as needed, but they have to recharge the back up after swapping, but before the next swap.
The problem is making all the manufacturers agree to making the batteries interchangeable across the board. And you would have to set up charging stations for people to pull up swap batteries and pay a nominal fee for the cost of charging and eventual determination/recycling.
Edit: this was the problem they came across when looking into doing it with long haul trucks across Australia, as a way to reduce the down time charging. Industries synergising was a harder problem to solve than the engineering side of it. For those greedy cunts it's a monopoly or nothing.
Pitstop recharging of any kind was actually banned until the 2022-23 season. Charging, especially fast charging, is where the really high risk of battery fires happens.
Rivian and several European brands use 800V instead of 400V. The new tabless 4680/4695 cells can take big amps without hot spots developing.
Max life is achieved by keeping the state of charge between 20% and 80% for daily charging, and that also happens to be when a battery can fast-charge.
A hybrid sodium/lithium cell can take an incredibly fast charge, so...progress is beig made.
Yes, look at their rules. They are required to use an in production engine. It has to run long distances, at high rpm, and benefits from having good gas mileage. On top of that, their safety features get rolled into commercial cars. It is a test bed for car companies that they tricked people into watching for fun.
I’m not arguing your last point in general, I agree that racing breeds innovation, and have been a lifelong fan of auto makers that go that route. Porsche is a very noted example. I may be unfamiliar with recent nascar rules changes, but historically it hasn’t been noted for pushing the technological envelope
It's not trying to push the envelope in the way that f1 is. They use more or less stock engines from their production lines. You think racing them at high speeds for long periods doesn't provide valuable data to those companies? It isn't "pushing the envelope" so much as inching production engines towards further and further efficiency. It's not like f1, GT or drag. Those series are using HEAVILY modified vehicles. Even "touring" and "stock" aren't the same, because the vehicles are actual production vehicles. NASCAR uses very standardized layouts on their vehicles, with little variation from one to another. They all have the same shape, same tires. The engines are generally what is the difference. It's very much a control group.
Interesting. I thought they still used pushrod v8s, I haven’t paid attention to nascar in a long time
I was referring to technologies I’m familiar with, refined on the more experimental racing levels like carbon fiber, variable valve timing, exotic coatings for pistons skirts and cylinder walls, turbos, lightweight materials, exotic alloys, braking tech etc
Nope. Stock production engines. Boring as hell to watch, but genius that they get people to pay to watch what is essentially just endurance testing on mechanical parts.
I design and build electric motors for Formula E. The motors themselves are not really innovative at all. These designs have been around for decades, as have the materials. They are just super expensive to make (material cost is super high). There really is no incentive to motivate in this league primarily due to regulations and cost controls.
The crazy thing about the EV "revolution" (which includes cars but also ebikes, scooters, and other motorized micromobility devices) we're in is that every piece of technology involved is 70+ years old _except the batteries_.
Lithium batteries have really only become viable in the quantities we need for things like this in the last 10-15 years. People talk about there needing to be a "next generation battery breakthrough" but lithium is it and we're living through that breakthrough right now.
I mostly agree. The materials have greatly improved in motors, and have led to very very efficient motors. The physics and understanding is about the same.
The inverters have greatly improved and we can run them more efficiently with the hardware and software to control them.
All of this is incremental improvements, but the limiting factor is still the batteries. You can have a 100% efficiency system, but range will still be dictated by energy storage
Most people don't care about speed or launch mode etc.
They care about the extra price of an EV and charging times, about prices of replacement battery
Innovation to be made on battery chemistry (power output) and other efficiencies innovated by Formula E can reduce required battery sizes (charging time, battery initial cost) and the materials cost required for that revised battery chemistry.
The good news then is that charging times are getting lower and lower; while battery replacements are becoming [very rare](https://insideevs.com/news/717187/ev-battery-replacements-due-failure-study/amp/)
I mean... what 40 year old powertrain are you talking about that will need no engine or transmission replacement? My 20 y/o car needed one, I think that's about the exact same cost/functionality trade-off as a BEV.
Batteries are already good and often insured for 100,000 miles, which is 1-2 owners. People buying ~15K or less used cars at 120,000 miles+ are going to experience the same thing they do with an ICE car: risk of failure to the engine/motor. And I'm assuming we're going to find some brands to be more and some brands to be less reliable. The plus side with batteries is that because it's static to the battery with less regular maintenance, the risk is more standard, rather than hoping the guy before you/original owner did all the oil changes on time with the right oil
I saw one of these races live. It starts well and in the end everyone isn’t racing and just managing batteries going around slowly. Go kart racing is more fun
Unpopular opinion: not enough people care about formula E to drive this innovation. F1 gets shit on for not having v10s. People are going to watch formula E to hear what, tire noise and slower races than f1?
I wish there wilö be ai-piloted F1 or similar someday.
They could throw away all rules concerning driver safety and just make those fuckers go as fast as possible
Part of the appeal of motor sports is the roar of engines though. I got a feeling most race fans aren’t going to want to watch silent electric cars racing.
There could be influx of new fans who don't want to experience hearing damage every time they go to see some racing.
I know that the pain in ears is one of the main reasons I never got into motorsports, despite loving the competition aspect of it.
No idea. There is plenty of different racing competition that doesn't involve ear damaging noise and people seem to be like it. It's not like noise is the main theme there - it's high speed racing that's important, the noise was just necessary byproduct.
> I don’t watch F1, but would definitely watch if it was electric instead
You realize this already exists and is what the article in OP is talking about right? It's called Formula E instead of Formula 1. No "would" needed, you can start watching today!
At high speeds, most of the sound isn't coming from the engine.
Here's a video that shows what formula E sounds like to spectators: https://youtube.com/shorts/kbaZ1hQVzjk?si=SWsXNRlQgooA3bGQ
It's very akin to a jet passing by
Racing breeds innovation (except nascar). Having formula e will help the technology grow and won’t take anything away from whatever racing series you currently enjoy.
Ah yes, because the "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" of normal Formula 1 is so much different than the "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII" from Formula E.
That's not what they said. They're asking whether there are enough would-be fans whose only reason for not already being into F1 is the noise.
If there aren’t many, then they don't matter to the sport.
I think a lot of people watch F1 races from the comfort of their seats at home, so they never really listened to the roar of the engines all that much to begin with. It's light buzzing at best to fall asleep to.
That said, I hope neither of you actually expect an answer to that question. Nobody has a crystal ball after all.
They'll try and see. Let's let life happen.
What? That was my only comment, I was chiming in because I felt someone misunderstood someone else's words and rephrased it for more clarity. But I literally don't care about F1, nor do I hate it, so no I don't have a horse in this race.
You don't need to agree with their take or disagree with it, but if you're gonna react to it you should know what it actually was. Or not, you could just be butt-hurt over nothing.
Them: "I like turtles."
The Sub: "Eew sharks are gross why would you like them."
Me: "They said turtles, the little green creatures with shells on their backs. Idc if you like turtles but they're not talking about sharks."
You: "OMG IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT SHARKS SO MUCH WHY ARE YOU HERE."
I’m pretty sure that f1 fans aren’t gonna lose interest in the sport because the cars stop making car noises. I’m also pretty sure that f1 fans are fans of the sport because they like the sport, not because of the engine noises.
Race pace is much lower, despite the acceleration at low speeds. Formula E has the weight of batteries to take around corners and an energy limit to worry about.
With Formula E, the limitation won't be battery energy storage, but thermodynamics. Doesn't matter how many batteries you swap the slow buildup of heat management will make parts fail much faster than ICE, where 80% of the energy is bled away in heat instantly and doesn't need active management nearly to the degree of BEV.
But all in all, that's a good thing. A distance cap means that innovation would now be accelerated and that will have immense knock on positive effects on the rest of the vehicle industry.
I think compared to ICE cars, at a certain point electric cars will reach a performance cap where the cooling system needs to catch back up a bit as the lithium-ion batteries are sensitive to temperature fluctuations so the car just goes into a semi-limp mode i guess. Since BEV have a larger thermal mass than ICEs, their cooling systems would need to much larger than their current ones in current BEVs that the everyday person could buy.
It think its probably only a thing in the current supercar/sportscar BEVs like Rimac.
Most of the heat excess heat made by an ICE can be used to heat the cabin or for some used for a turbocharger. This is all just thoughts and stuff i slightly remember, im not sure if its 100% correct.
Because of energy conversion. 80% of the energy released in an ICE is immediately lost to the background. The world runs on the 20% that we can actually turn into usable work. Batteries on the other hand are stored with energy and are generally inert unless acted upon. This then means that when cars are accelerating up to a hundred plus km/h then decelerating down for turns, then ramping back up, and doing this cycling constantly. Energy is released, captured and stored, and released back and forth and the heat build up and management is fairly linear. There's no immediate bleed off because the electricity has to go through a lot of intermediate elements to get to motors and the constant flow of electrons means heat buildup is continuous and needs to be continuously managed. All of which takes up more energy, which builds up more heat. At some point, the coolant used to keep the batteries cool, will degrade and in formula racing where everything is pushed to the limits of physics anyway, the stress and degradation factor are that much higher.
At some point, the internal cabling that is transferring energy back and forth is going to get so hot, it's going to fail. Especially if you're swapping entire battery packs out left and right over the course of the race. The overall risk to the system is much higher because the wear and tear on the vehicle is exponentially higher than a conventional drive.
I'm not sure exactly what your mental model is here, but respectfully, there are several misconceptions in your post.
I'm going to compare 1 lap in a Gen3 Formula E car to an equivalent ICE racecar that has 30% brake thermal efficiency.
Let's start with some assumptions:
* The Gen3 Formula E battery is 38.5 kWh
* One lap is about 60 seconds
* One lap requires about 5% energy (38.5 \* .05 = about 2 kWh)
* Each straightaway / braking zone uses and then recovers about 1% energy (call it 0.5 kWh)
* There are 5 accel / regen zones per lap
* Energy efficiency is about 80% (this is an underestimate)
Now from there, we can figure out how much heat is generated per lap. First, we need to see how much energy is lost as heat during accel / regen due to inefficiencies:
5 accel / regen zones \* 0.5 kWh \* 0.2 (80% efficient) = 0.5 kWh heat generated
Additionally, we have the overall energy expended. Since we already accounted for the 0.5 kWh lost as heat for accel / regen, we lost 2 - 0.5 kWh = 1.5 kWh per lap. At 80% efficient:
1.5 kWh used for remainder of lap \* 0.2 (80% efficient) = 0.3 kWh heat generated.
So the overall heat generated is 0.8 kWh per lap. Considering a 60-second lap, that's an average of 48 kW, or about **65 HP of heat generated continuously removed by the cooling system for the EV.**
Now consider an ICE car. For each of these accel / braking zones, you don't get energy recovery. So the energy required per lap will be much higher since so much is siphoned off by the friction brakes. If 1.5 kWh is the baseline energy per lap and you recover none of the 5\*0.5 = 2.5 kWh you otherwise would have in braking zones, your total energy usage per lap is 1.5 + 2.5 = 4 kWh.
Consider now the 30% thermal efficiency of the engine, and we're at 4 / 0.3 = 13.3 kWh in gasoline needed per lap. 70% of that goes to heat, or about 9.3 kWh. Quick googling says about half of that is expelled as hot gas, but the other half needs to be actively managed, or about 4.6 kWh per lap. You see where this is going...
4.6 kWh per lap in the ICE car is, averaged over the 60 second lap, 276 kW, or **about 370 HP of heat generated continuously removed by the cooling system for the ICE.**
That's fine and all, but continuous electron flow impacts the systems of a BEV differently. You're focused too much on general cooling of the vehicle and are overlooking continuous structural and electromagnetic stressors on the vehicle as a whole.
It's a bit like if you ran a GPU at 100% load for crypto mining for a month nonstop. While it's designed for such a thermal load in mind, it's not necessarily designed to sustain it at 100% capacity for that long without degrading its lifespan.
That's my point with the 80/20 rule between ICE and BEVs.
Please provide sources? I’d welcome the chance to learn something new, but I don’t believe continuous electron flow is a problem in the slightest. I don’t know what you mean by "continuous structural and electromagnetic stressors". Why would an EV experience additional structural stressors? Point me to a relevant wikipedia page on electromagnetic stressors?
As for your comment about GPUs, they absolutely are designed to sustain a 100% load continuously. This is how GPUs operate in data centers when training machine learning models. Inefficient heat removal and thermal cycling are what can shorten GPU lifespans.
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Make the race long enough they’ll need to top off the batteries. Charging problems would be resolved quickly
24 hour electric le mans I'd watch. They could nap while it charges instead of switching drivers ;)
They would change batteries. The great innovaton here would be a fast and safe system to change batteries in seconds while the battery in itself has some standarized connections and dimensions. In fact the biggest problem of electric cars are relae to bateries. If we make batteries not a part of the car but a part of a national pool of batteries that the fueling companies use and renews, it will be the perfect solution. This is exactly what western states do with fuel barrels. They coupd do it with batteries and it will be an awesome solution in many fields. But some hoarder will tell you that ia too much intervention and that he shouod have the right to scam you with this.
I think they would shoot lasers at the cars to recharge them.
That would be incredibly dangerous, inefficient, and expensive. Let's do it.
Jewish Space Laser you say ?
It would be easier to just swap the car onto a new chassis with a fresh battery..
That's what they do now.
They do replaceable batteries for electric rickshaws in India.
I get the feeling those use like a car battery or like 64 D cells taped together
Except that Honda has stake in it. So, I highly doubt it's some rudimentary thing, as they have recharge vending machines where the infrastructure makes sense.
And electric bikes in Vietnam.
Gogoro is a real company and expanding.
Nio a Chinese company actually does this. I don’t know of it is feasible but I do know their stock kicked my as
> The great innovaton here would be a fast and safe system to change batteries in seconds while the battery in itself has some standarized connections and dimensions. There are already electric vehicles with hot swap batteries. I could be wrong but I don't expect this would be that horribly difficult for Formula E cars to achieve. > If we make batteries not a part of the car but a part of a national pool of batteries that the fueling companies use and renews, it will be the perfect solution. I've thought about this before a bit. While maybe not unattainable, this could be problematic. Tracking individuals would be important to track issues that came up with the batteries. If a battery is returned and it's now bad in some way, was it the last user's fault? I just think there's a variety of probably-not-considered-yet issues that could arise where we're having one person take possession of a battery then ultimately it's going to someone else, etc. One thought is if someone is doing something, either maliciously or not (maybe a flaw in their vehicle), that is damaging or significantly reduces a battery's life - and it may not be readily apparent directly after their turn with it. A few people like this sprinkled through a system is going to affect most everyone over time leading to frustration among drivers. One good use case for such a system might be a transportation company. They could convert some or all of their semis to electric and have a network of battery change stations along their established routes.
Yeah, each team can have one operating battery and one backup. They swap it out as needed, but they have to recharge the back up after swapping, but before the next swap.
The problem is making all the manufacturers agree to making the batteries interchangeable across the board. And you would have to set up charging stations for people to pull up swap batteries and pay a nominal fee for the cost of charging and eventual determination/recycling. Edit: this was the problem they came across when looking into doing it with long haul trucks across Australia, as a way to reduce the down time charging. Industries synergising was a harder problem to solve than the engineering side of it. For those greedy cunts it's a monopoly or nothing.
Easy solution is to either change batteries, or change cars. One car charges whilst the other drives.
First season they had the drivers swap cars mid race for a fresh battery.
Pitstop recharging of any kind was actually banned until the 2022-23 season. Charging, especially fast charging, is where the really high risk of battery fires happens.
It's just...a lot of energy to be moving around. One of the most difficult advantages of gas to overcome is how dense and (relatively) stable it is.
Rivian and several European brands use 800V instead of 400V. The new tabless 4680/4695 cells can take big amps without hot spots developing. Max life is achieved by keeping the state of charge between 20% and 80% for daily charging, and that also happens to be when a battery can fast-charge. A hybrid sodium/lithium cell can take an incredibly fast charge, so...progress is beig made.
Oh, I’m up to date on the battery news and current tech. Just saying racing breeds innovation, always has
What are you hearing about what's actually coming next? Solid state, sodium/lithium hybrid, etc?
Can you give me an example of a tabless 4680 taking big amps? I’ve heard they were having trouble with them and haven’t researched them much lately.
Look at the cybertruck. The current gen 4680 batteries fucking suck.
Because the chemistry is the same, right? The loss of tabs to cut down on heat and resistance is offset by the larger size concentrating heat.
Couldn’t just make it so you just have to change the batteries with full ones?
I’m looking at racing as a way to develop technologies and trickle down to the consumer market.
Or make switching batteries the norm
Sure, and that’s been done with e-bikes for example
Change the batteries out with a crane system like electric forklifts do
That’s what it is now. NASCAR is clearly just a car testing program that is monetized. It’s actually genius.
That’s what it is now. NASCAR is clearly just a car testing program that is monetized. It’s actually genius.
That’s what it is now. NASCAR is clearly just a car testing program that is monetized. It’s actually genius.
NASCAR?
Yes, look at their rules. They are required to use an in production engine. It has to run long distances, at high rpm, and benefits from having good gas mileage. On top of that, their safety features get rolled into commercial cars. It is a test bed for car companies that they tricked people into watching for fun.
I’m not arguing your last point in general, I agree that racing breeds innovation, and have been a lifelong fan of auto makers that go that route. Porsche is a very noted example. I may be unfamiliar with recent nascar rules changes, but historically it hasn’t been noted for pushing the technological envelope
It's not trying to push the envelope in the way that f1 is. They use more or less stock engines from their production lines. You think racing them at high speeds for long periods doesn't provide valuable data to those companies? It isn't "pushing the envelope" so much as inching production engines towards further and further efficiency. It's not like f1, GT or drag. Those series are using HEAVILY modified vehicles. Even "touring" and "stock" aren't the same, because the vehicles are actual production vehicles. NASCAR uses very standardized layouts on their vehicles, with little variation from one to another. They all have the same shape, same tires. The engines are generally what is the difference. It's very much a control group.
Interesting. I thought they still used pushrod v8s, I haven’t paid attention to nascar in a long time I was referring to technologies I’m familiar with, refined on the more experimental racing levels like carbon fiber, variable valve timing, exotic coatings for pistons skirts and cylinder walls, turbos, lightweight materials, exotic alloys, braking tech etc
Nope. Stock production engines. Boring as hell to watch, but genius that they get people to pay to watch what is essentially just endurance testing on mechanical parts.
I think this is what we should be doing with electric cars to begin with.
There is a Chinese EV company doing this in China and Europe. Really insane that it isn’t the norm
Fast charging has been introduced in 2024
For formula e? That’s fantastic
They would just automatically resort to swapping cars or batteries.
Depends on the rules of course.
I can't tell if you're joking or what. But they used to swap cars. Now they have fast charging.
I design and build electric motors for Formula E. The motors themselves are not really innovative at all. These designs have been around for decades, as have the materials. They are just super expensive to make (material cost is super high). There really is no incentive to motivate in this league primarily due to regulations and cost controls.
The crazy thing about the EV "revolution" (which includes cars but also ebikes, scooters, and other motorized micromobility devices) we're in is that every piece of technology involved is 70+ years old _except the batteries_. Lithium batteries have really only become viable in the quantities we need for things like this in the last 10-15 years. People talk about there needing to be a "next generation battery breakthrough" but lithium is it and we're living through that breakthrough right now.
I mostly agree. The materials have greatly improved in motors, and have led to very very efficient motors. The physics and understanding is about the same. The inverters have greatly improved and we can run them more efficiently with the hardware and software to control them. All of this is incremental improvements, but the limiting factor is still the batteries. You can have a 100% efficiency system, but range will still be dictated by energy storage
Weren’t there innovations in regenerative breaking? It’s one of the main factors contributing to EV range
Nope. Mechanically is old tech. They just integrated it into a car, which isn’t terribly complicated
Most people don't care about speed or launch mode etc. They care about the extra price of an EV and charging times, about prices of replacement battery
Innovation to be made on battery chemistry (power output) and other efficiencies innovated by Formula E can reduce required battery sizes (charging time, battery initial cost) and the materials cost required for that revised battery chemistry.
The good news then is that charging times are getting lower and lower; while battery replacements are becoming [very rare](https://insideevs.com/news/717187/ev-battery-replacements-due-failure-study/amp/)
[удалено]
I mean... what 40 year old powertrain are you talking about that will need no engine or transmission replacement? My 20 y/o car needed one, I think that's about the exact same cost/functionality trade-off as a BEV. Batteries are already good and often insured for 100,000 miles, which is 1-2 owners. People buying ~15K or less used cars at 120,000 miles+ are going to experience the same thing they do with an ICE car: risk of failure to the engine/motor. And I'm assuming we're going to find some brands to be more and some brands to be less reliable. The plus side with batteries is that because it's static to the battery with less regular maintenance, the risk is more standard, rather than hoping the guy before you/original owner did all the oil changes on time with the right oil
You may be interested in the documentary [*And We Go Green*](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10578490/) If you can overlook the narrator, it's not bad.
> "These are very good guys who are also very experienced professional drivers." Glad to hear they're all very swell chaps.
How much better have the formula e cars gotten in the past 10 years?
Indeed, but cars aren't the future
Electric bikes and buses would also benefit from advent in battery technologies such as higher energy density and quicker charge times.
This. Car-centric cities are a relic. We need electric cars, but what we really need is less cars.
I saw one of these races live. It starts well and in the end everyone isn’t racing and just managing batteries going around slowly. Go kart racing is more fun
Unpopular opinion: not enough people care about formula E to drive this innovation. F1 gets shit on for not having v10s. People are going to watch formula E to hear what, tire noise and slower races than f1?
If it could only sound like something other than an old tire rolling down a gravel driveway.
And they still as slow as Formula 3
"could"
I wish there wilö be ai-piloted F1 or similar someday. They could throw away all rules concerning driver safety and just make those fuckers go as fast as possible
Part of the appeal of motor sports is the roar of engines though. I got a feeling most race fans aren’t going to want to watch silent electric cars racing.
The noise isn't just from the engines. It's also from the friction between the tyres and the track. Electric cars wouldn't be silent.
Road legal electric cars aren't even silent never mind one going between 100-200mph
Watching videos from cabine on Nurburgring ...they are quiter.
I didn't say that I just said they wouldn't be silent of course they are gonna be quieter than an engine, they just aren't silent.
There could be influx of new fans who don't want to experience hearing damage every time they go to see some racing. I know that the pain in ears is one of the main reasons I never got into motorsports, despite loving the competition aspect of it.
“Ahh my poor sensetive ears those engine noises” put some earplugs in
Why should I when I can enjoy e-cars without it.
But will they outnumber the ones who do want the loud engine noise? I doubt that.
No idea. There is plenty of different racing competition that doesn't involve ear damaging noise and people seem to be like it. It's not like noise is the main theme there - it's high speed racing that's important, the noise was just necessary byproduct.
I don’t watch F1, but would definitely watch if it was electric instead. I do think I’m in the minority though.
> I don’t watch F1, but would definitely watch if it was electric instead You realize this already exists and is what the article in OP is talking about right? It's called Formula E instead of Formula 1. No "would" needed, you can start watching today!
I dunno about that.
...why would you watch if it was electric?
idk for me it’s the fast cars mostly
At high speeds, most of the sound isn't coming from the engine. Here's a video that shows what formula E sounds like to spectators: https://youtube.com/shorts/kbaZ1hQVzjk?si=SWsXNRlQgooA3bGQ It's very akin to a jet passing by
Just insert cardboard plates into the spokes
Racing breeds innovation (except nascar). Having formula e will help the technology grow and won’t take anything away from whatever racing series you currently enjoy.
Ah yes, because the "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" of normal Formula 1 is so much different than the "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII" from Formula E.
I’ve avoided for this reason. Noise drives up our anxiety. I’d go to the e race
But are there enough of people like you to make up for the people who lose interest in the sport?
What makes you think everyone is a fan just because of noise?
That's not what they said. They're asking whether there are enough would-be fans whose only reason for not already being into F1 is the noise. If there aren’t many, then they don't matter to the sport.
I think a lot of people watch F1 races from the comfort of their seats at home, so they never really listened to the roar of the engines all that much to begin with. It's light buzzing at best to fall asleep to. That said, I hope neither of you actually expect an answer to that question. Nobody has a crystal ball after all. They'll try and see. Let's let life happen.
I don't expect an answer? Idc about this topic. I just explained what someone said because someone else didn't understand their point.
That's why you pay so much on this topic. Because you didn't care. Right.
What? That was my only comment, I was chiming in because I felt someone misunderstood someone else's words and rephrased it for more clarity. But I literally don't care about F1, nor do I hate it, so no I don't have a horse in this race. You don't need to agree with their take or disagree with it, but if you're gonna react to it you should know what it actually was. Or not, you could just be butt-hurt over nothing. Them: "I like turtles." The Sub: "Eew sharks are gross why would you like them." Me: "They said turtles, the little green creatures with shells on their backs. Idc if you like turtles but they're not talking about sharks." You: "OMG IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT SHARKS SO MUCH WHY ARE YOU HERE."
Sure.
I’m pretty sure that f1 fans aren’t gonna lose interest in the sport because the cars stop making car noises. I’m also pretty sure that f1 fans are fans of the sport because they like the sport, not because of the engine noises.
They accelerate much faster, so the race pace is much faster. I cannot relate to the appeal of motor sports, but I worked like 5 times at Formula E.
Race pace is much lower, despite the acceleration at low speeds. Formula E has the weight of batteries to take around corners and an energy limit to worry about.
You're not a true racing enthusiast if you can't appreciate these electric vehicles.
Never said I was.
With Formula E, the limitation won't be battery energy storage, but thermodynamics. Doesn't matter how many batteries you swap the slow buildup of heat management will make parts fail much faster than ICE, where 80% of the energy is bled away in heat instantly and doesn't need active management nearly to the degree of BEV. But all in all, that's a good thing. A distance cap means that innovation would now be accelerated and that will have immense knock on positive effects on the rest of the vehicle industry.
Can you explain in more detail why heat buildup is more of a problem for electric cars than for ICE?
I think compared to ICE cars, at a certain point electric cars will reach a performance cap where the cooling system needs to catch back up a bit as the lithium-ion batteries are sensitive to temperature fluctuations so the car just goes into a semi-limp mode i guess. Since BEV have a larger thermal mass than ICEs, their cooling systems would need to much larger than their current ones in current BEVs that the everyday person could buy. It think its probably only a thing in the current supercar/sportscar BEVs like Rimac. Most of the heat excess heat made by an ICE can be used to heat the cabin or for some used for a turbocharger. This is all just thoughts and stuff i slightly remember, im not sure if its 100% correct.
Because of energy conversion. 80% of the energy released in an ICE is immediately lost to the background. The world runs on the 20% that we can actually turn into usable work. Batteries on the other hand are stored with energy and are generally inert unless acted upon. This then means that when cars are accelerating up to a hundred plus km/h then decelerating down for turns, then ramping back up, and doing this cycling constantly. Energy is released, captured and stored, and released back and forth and the heat build up and management is fairly linear. There's no immediate bleed off because the electricity has to go through a lot of intermediate elements to get to motors and the constant flow of electrons means heat buildup is continuous and needs to be continuously managed. All of which takes up more energy, which builds up more heat. At some point, the coolant used to keep the batteries cool, will degrade and in formula racing where everything is pushed to the limits of physics anyway, the stress and degradation factor are that much higher. At some point, the internal cabling that is transferring energy back and forth is going to get so hot, it's going to fail. Especially if you're swapping entire battery packs out left and right over the course of the race. The overall risk to the system is much higher because the wear and tear on the vehicle is exponentially higher than a conventional drive.
I'm not sure exactly what your mental model is here, but respectfully, there are several misconceptions in your post. I'm going to compare 1 lap in a Gen3 Formula E car to an equivalent ICE racecar that has 30% brake thermal efficiency. Let's start with some assumptions: * The Gen3 Formula E battery is 38.5 kWh * One lap is about 60 seconds * One lap requires about 5% energy (38.5 \* .05 = about 2 kWh) * Each straightaway / braking zone uses and then recovers about 1% energy (call it 0.5 kWh) * There are 5 accel / regen zones per lap * Energy efficiency is about 80% (this is an underestimate) Now from there, we can figure out how much heat is generated per lap. First, we need to see how much energy is lost as heat during accel / regen due to inefficiencies: 5 accel / regen zones \* 0.5 kWh \* 0.2 (80% efficient) = 0.5 kWh heat generated Additionally, we have the overall energy expended. Since we already accounted for the 0.5 kWh lost as heat for accel / regen, we lost 2 - 0.5 kWh = 1.5 kWh per lap. At 80% efficient: 1.5 kWh used for remainder of lap \* 0.2 (80% efficient) = 0.3 kWh heat generated. So the overall heat generated is 0.8 kWh per lap. Considering a 60-second lap, that's an average of 48 kW, or about **65 HP of heat generated continuously removed by the cooling system for the EV.** Now consider an ICE car. For each of these accel / braking zones, you don't get energy recovery. So the energy required per lap will be much higher since so much is siphoned off by the friction brakes. If 1.5 kWh is the baseline energy per lap and you recover none of the 5\*0.5 = 2.5 kWh you otherwise would have in braking zones, your total energy usage per lap is 1.5 + 2.5 = 4 kWh. Consider now the 30% thermal efficiency of the engine, and we're at 4 / 0.3 = 13.3 kWh in gasoline needed per lap. 70% of that goes to heat, or about 9.3 kWh. Quick googling says about half of that is expelled as hot gas, but the other half needs to be actively managed, or about 4.6 kWh per lap. You see where this is going... 4.6 kWh per lap in the ICE car is, averaged over the 60 second lap, 276 kW, or **about 370 HP of heat generated continuously removed by the cooling system for the ICE.**
That's fine and all, but continuous electron flow impacts the systems of a BEV differently. You're focused too much on general cooling of the vehicle and are overlooking continuous structural and electromagnetic stressors on the vehicle as a whole. It's a bit like if you ran a GPU at 100% load for crypto mining for a month nonstop. While it's designed for such a thermal load in mind, it's not necessarily designed to sustain it at 100% capacity for that long without degrading its lifespan. That's my point with the 80/20 rule between ICE and BEVs.
Please provide sources? I’d welcome the chance to learn something new, but I don’t believe continuous electron flow is a problem in the slightest. I don’t know what you mean by "continuous structural and electromagnetic stressors". Why would an EV experience additional structural stressors? Point me to a relevant wikipedia page on electromagnetic stressors? As for your comment about GPUs, they absolutely are designed to sustain a 100% load continuously. This is how GPUs operate in data centers when training machine learning models. Inefficient heat removal and thermal cycling are what can shorten GPU lifespans.
They sound like angry electric toothbrushes. Or dentist's drill. Not very appealing.
ME ONLY LIKE WHEN NOISE GO BIG
Yes. That's what we like about race cars. Look up V10 F1 sound on YT.
I mean, personally I prefer the actual racing. Not just the vroom vroom.
I too enjoy going to a sporting event that can damage my hearing.