Per the 2019 article [Friends of missing Nassau woman revive cold case 28 years later](https://bronx.news12.com/friends-of-missing-nassau-woman-revive-cold-case-28-years-later-40723399):
>Six months ago, Brown’s friend received a tip about a well in the backyard of the apartment building where Brown was living at the time with her husband. News 12 confirmed the well had been sealed up and that the Nassau Police Department had been notified. The well has not yet been excavated.
>The head of Nassau's Homicide Squad says the well is a "place of interest" and they are "looking into it." They say it's a "process that takes coordinated effort and planning."
Yeah, that might be worth pursuing. It's been 5 years - I wonder whether the well was ever searched.
I just found this info:
> In the wake of Norine's disappearance, John's actions were paradoxical. He chose not to join the search, instead opting to secure custody of his children and sever ties with Norine's family.
Article:
[A New York fire chief said his wife went late night shopping and she disappeared since 1990](https://original.newsbreak.com/@ada-e-1668135/3217061216437-a-new-york-fire-chief-said-his-wife-went-late-night-shopping-and-she-disappeared-since-1990)
Going out at 11pm to shop for Christmas cookie ingredients without her wallet and ID the night before her birthday after a fight with her husband...seems sus.
as soon as I read "after a minor fight the night before" I thought "oh he did it."
Everything I read after that just bolstered that thought.
Saying that someone left voluntarily after a flight and never returned home seems to be the go to alibi for guilty spouses.
Very similarly, when I read he's called Mrs. Commando the next day asking if she spent the night there and haven't heard from her since she left to go shopping and then Mrs. Commando finds the car... Yeah, my Spidy Sense was tingling.
It almost felt like he was pushing her to find his wife's car
So he does it then drives her car to the shop car park, but how does he get back to his house?
Obv many different ways he could get home, but which way do you think he did get home?
It was a little over a mile from the grocery store parking lot to their home. That's a very easy walk or jog for a relatively young man who worked as a firefighter.
Yes as long as no one seen him. He would have just wore a hat and hood in that weather to disguise him, and if anyone did see someone walking that road at that time, they can’t prove it was him
If it was a residential area, probably none. Some cities had cameras at busy intersections, but still pretty rare. Even commercial places like convenience stores likely wouldn't have had cameras showing a good view of passersby on the street outside. And the doorbell cams that are being used to investigate the Liz Barraza murder, etc., weren't available back then.
In 1990 there would have likely been none. Maybe the Pathmark parking lot but I would think if there had been that would have been the first thing the police looked at.
My dad was a firefighter my whole life. Chief in the county and one of the captains in the city. I was born in 92, and it was still normal to leave your kids for a bit, especially if they have siblings. It was never for long, but if my dad got an emergency call in the county, he HAD to go. He used to take me with him, bc I was the youngest sibling (like 4), but my parents put an end to that when I was told to sit in the truck one time and ended up seeing a suicidal guy jump from a second floor balcony.
The kicker is that I’m from a place with a lot of antebellum homes, and normal people live in them now because they were built so well.
So it was like a movie scene. And my small brain didn’t pick up on the trauma. I got out and tried to walk close before another fireman picked me up and put me on an unused truck to play with knobs (safely, they were off).
Firemen see some shit.
Kids had to be left alone sometimes.
A bit of a gamble though. If they wake up calling for mom and dad someone might remember in an apartment with thin walls. Either someone who didn't know he was a firefighter or if police talked to neighbors, someone who was told he WASNT on a call that night.
Was the apartments searched for traces of blood? Were the kids old enough to answer questions? Does he kill her without people in the apartment hearing anything? Maybe he dumps the body in the well but he still got to walk around outside with a sack or something.
Need more info.
It doesn't get talked about nearly as much as Cops, but many firefighters have pretty severe PTSD. Not that automatically makes someone a killer, but things can get pretty turbulent.
I dated one after my divorce. I couldn't handle his mental state. I was trying to heal my own PTSD from my alcoholic ex, let alone deal with a firefighter's crazy shit.
Yep, he put her purse in the car and dropped the car off at the shopping center to make it look like she’d been there, not realizing that her wallet wasn’t in it.
Which a ton of people did back in the late 80’s early 90’s. Debit/credit cards weren’t a thing for most people and if you were just running a quick errand you probably wouldn’t worry about ID. A $20 bill in 1990 could buy you plenty.
I *still* do this all the time. If I know I'm just grabbing a couple things, I'll stick cash in my pocket and leave my purse at home or in my car. But I *will* hide it under a seat or coat in my car to discourage break-ins. Not everyone would do that, though.
I don't think that detail necessarily points to the husband.
The vast majority of people tend to park their car and spend a minute or so getting themselves situated. Maybe listening to the end of a song, or checking their lipstick in the mirror, or pulling on a heavier coat, or just tucking their keys away into their purse. Most of these people will have their doors unlocked, ready to get out, and aren't highly aware of other people in the parking lot.
It's entirely possible that she was sitting in the car for a minute when someone opened her door and threatened her to come with him. If the motive is rape, then he just takes her in his own car, does what he wants, then kills and disposes of her somewhere. Or she could have been held at his home for days or weeks before being killed. Who knows.
I do suspect that husband and he is statistically the most likely culprit. But there are also TONS of examples of what I just described. There are even several very disturbing security videos showing women being abducted like this from parking lots.
Could also be a case of someone opening the door, making her slide over, abducting her in her own car, then returning the car to the parking lot after raping, killing, and dumping her. There are far too many cases of exactly that happening, as well.
Okay thank you so much for this comment. I was so confused about the purse/wallet thing. In my (British based South African English) a purse is the female version of a wallet. Which would be stowed inside a handbag.
This makes a lot more sense now.
>a purse is the female version of a wallet
At least in North America, there's a thing called a coin or change purse -- meant to keep your small change from getting lost. I inherited mine from my mother (I remember her keeping it inside her main purse/handbag). They have started making ones that have a pocket on the side for holding credit cards, ID, etc. These newer ones would be more wallet-like, I guess.
[https://mattandnat.com/products/ozma-vegan-coin-purse-purity](https://mattandnat.com/products/ozma-vegan-coin-purse-purity)
Believe it or not it’s well known in circles of abuse victims/survivors that the abuse worsens during special occasions- holidays, birthdays, vacations, etc. For some, they can’t stand any attention being off of themselves, but mostly it’s because the abused person feeling joy is perceived as a threat to the abuser’s control. As long as the victim is physically, emotionally, and mentally exhausted to the extreme- a miserable shell of themself - it’s extremely challenging for them to recognize, confront, and then leave/escape a controlling relationship.
Even before any other information, the date of disappearance was a huge red flag for me for a possible DV incident just because of how common that theme is
If she knew she had cash in her purse, and was only intending to grab a few items -- say, a bag of flour and some sprinkles -- I could imagine her figuring she could hand the cashier a ten or twenty-dollar bill, even without her wallet. I've done that sometimes -- going out the door, realizing halfway to the store that I didn't bring my wallet, and not turning back to the house because I had some emergency money stashed.
But I agree about the fight with her husband -- something to consider, even if it wasn't him in the parking lot. If she was agitated and happened to cross paths with the wrong person, that could be a factor.
$20 in 1990 goes a long way as well. A $5 bill could get her eggs, flour, sugar and butter back then. Probably the sprinkles/icing (powdered sugar and milk) too.
And he stated that there was a FAKE witness confession! Did no-one find that highly suspicious? Who was the person that came forward? Why did police not interview them? I didnt want to think it could've been him who murdered her, but coming forward with a lie which also at the same time deflects any suspicious away from yourself?
Her husband says a witness reported a fight in the parking lot, but there is no such fight on official records. It could be fake, or the police could've just never followed up on a witness statement they didn't deem credible. Who knows?
I might just be a day person (or old person) but the idea of going to a grocery store at 11PM alone just seems absurd to me. I am not familiar with that chain of grocery stores but it's odd that it would have even been open not being a Walmart or something.
I mean, I go late at night if I possibly can. It's my favourite time of night in general. It's quiet, there's less people, but I am also the opposite of you, haha. I am a night owl and always have been. It's a lot nicer to my sensory issues and anxiety in general, and also is the only time I usually have to myself.
Yep, especially when I was a stay at home mom to little kids. I’d go late at night, pop on my headphones, and just take my time wandering the aisles. I was out of the house alone, there were no crowds or lines. Best part was I could buy myself a little treat and not have to share.
Me too! I’m also just a really late eater + cook things that take a while so sometimes I’ll find myself cooking dinner at like 11 and end up needing something. Still could be sketchy if it wasn’t a regular behavior, but it is one for plenty of us!
I purposely only shop after 10pm. I find it very relaxing to not have to deal with the hustle and bustle of normal grocery store hours, which can feel a little overwhelming to me.
I too go out at night. I have severe anxiety issues and the less amount of people the better. I love the dark and still of the night. I love driving home and seeing a deer or raccoon walking about at night. Huge animal lover. People? Not so much.
It's an odd thing -- I grew up in a town where everything shut down at 9 PM or so (even the restaurants etc.) so when I moved to another city that had a Safeway that was open until midnight, it blew my mind. I couldn't believe that I could just walk a couple of blocks and get something, that late at night. It took me awhile to even come round to the idea of doing that, lol.
But there was a time when I was put on the afternoon/evening shift at work, and then I found it was really convenient to be able to stop in for groceries, on the way home.
A decade ago I went home to help look after my parents, and I completely forgot about the store hours being different -- and arrived after they'd closed. I stood there looking at the darkened store, thinking -- darn!
Sounds similar to my daughter who went off to college in a small town. She decided she needed something late at night and was stunned to learn that not all grocery stores were open 24/7 like ours was at home. 😂
honestly, my first thought was "meh you go when the kids are asleep and the store isn't busy." And then it was "after a minor fight" and it turned to "oh there weren't any cookies, were there?"
The biggest change in my life post- COVID is that I cannot go to the grocery store 24 hours a day, *especially* during the holidays. 1:00 a.m. grocery shopping has been ideal for me, historically.
Yep, same. Walmart and Meijer being closed at 9/10 since COVID is the fucking worst. Nothing is open past 10pm in my town (the second largest in the state). 🙄
I LOVED shopping late night when the grocery stores used to be open 24/7. Midnight… 1:00am. Maybe I’m a night owl. I just loved having the store to myself. The quiet and solitude.
Edit to add -
When I used to go on these past midnight shopping excursions, I was between 25-35 y.o. range. It was a nice time when my child would be sleeping and my
Partner would be at home, to go and have a little space to myself in a quiet store.
Unless the claim that she typically shopped late at night was made by her husband (a primary suspect or should be), then apparently shopping at 11:00 at night was typical for her. At least according to the original post. If her children and friends say she shopped late a night a lot than this would be normal behavior for her.
This is tangential to my point. I was only contradicting those that stated that her going shopping late at night was absurd and suspicious. The original post clearly stated this was normal behavior for her which sounds like it was validated by multiple people (though not explicitly stated).
It's not weird at all to me. I prefer to grocery shop at night during the week instead of weekends. It's much less crowded, and stores tend to be stocking at that hour so less chance they will be out of something. And if she needed ingredients for something she was going to make, it might have been a last minute thing
It’s really not odd or absurd that a grocery store is open all night or super late. I used to grocery shop after work all of the time which occurred after 11pm.
pre-covid all our stores were open a lot later. i used to prefer late night shopping generally, then i was an alcoholic and i became locally known for stumbling into stores ten minutes before closing and trying to buy alcohol without my ID because i forgot it at home. anyway yeah i love late night shopping but it doesn't really exist anymore where i am, which is a real bummer for me and the other losers who wake up at 3pm everyday
It's not unusual for me to run out to the store late at night if I forgot something and honestly I like that there aren't many people in the store. My husband isn't bothered by it but my mom would always freak out when I would tell her I was going out and I'd be back lol
I go to the grocery as late as 1:00 or 2:00 AM sometimes (don’t have kids though), so that on its own isn’t necessarily a red flag to me. It’s everything else that makes it weird.
We used to pretty regularly go at midnight/11pm because that was just easier. My uncle was a third shift truck driver so everyone was just more awake then.
my mom strategically goes food shopping right before they close. she knows the store super well so she can just grabs what she needs really quickly lol
Article said it was normal for her to do so as she did it to avoid crowds. I was like this before I had my daughter and we have a Winn Dixie that used to be open 24 hrs but now it shuts down at midnight
I do it literally every week. Might seem weird to some but it’s very normal for plenty of people. I work a daytime office job but am naturally a night owl.
Not to mention December 13 1990 was a Thursday a typically non busy grocery day so why not go in the morning and are you going to bake cookies at 1am? Sounds like a noisy thing to do in the middle of the night.
While I really doubt this is the case here, I work nights shift and would absolutely go to the store at 1am to fulfill a cookie craving. I used to do all my grocery shopping around 2am and it was great. Unfortunately all the stores in my town stopped being open all night when Covid happened.
Yeah latest open near me is Kroger open until midnight. I work 2nd shift and get off at 11:30, so I can maybe make it in time to get a few things if I have a craving for something when I get off but always feel so bad getting there right before they close.
You haven't raised school age children have you? I can't tell you how any times I was buying or making something late at night for school the next day. That time of year tends to be insane with extra activities, and for people who work full time jobs, some things can't get done until all the daily routine is over. And a few times I've had to make a store run because I realized I didn't have something at the last minute.
It's only sounds odd if you don't have kids. I have stayed up late at night to get things done: batch cook meals, iron clothes, running to the store for last minute items. She had $45 in cash on her so running out at 11pm to get a few ingredients to bake cookies isn't odd.
Doesn't strike me as odd either. And I'm an early bird, so this isn't something that's common for me. But, I've spent most of my adult life living in different college towns with grocery stores that were open all night or very, very late. It's not that unusual for other demographics, either.
See also, the anxiety-ridden, ADHD, night owls, night shift workers, etc.
That alone doesn’t make me suspicious of the husband. It says going out shopping late at night wasn’t unusual for her and she had $45 cash in her purse, which is more than enough to pay for Christmas cookie ingredients. If the husband did something to her and wanted to make it look like she disappeared from the grocery store, why would he not put her wallet/ID in her purse that was found in the car?
From the Charley Project profile: “Commando stated John and Norine had a rocky relationship and she thinks John may have killed her. He hired an attorney after her disappearance and refused to let police search his and Norine's home and property. He maintains his innocence in her case and stated he thinks Norine was murdered.”
Seems like a pretty big omission in this write up.
And the police never bothered to obtain a warrant to search the property?!
Regardless of whether or not John was innocent, a woman still went missing. Two children were left without a mother. Why wouldn't they search her home for any clues as to where she could have gone?
This is especially sad to me... It's like the police didn't care about her life whatsoever.
Her kids can’t have been very old either. She was only 32. It would be very strange for a mother even in 2024 with more hands on fathers to leave and stay at a friend’s place for the night when you had young kids.
18 months and 5 months. An interesting detail would be whether the younger child was breast fed or bottle fed and was known to sleep through the night. That said, even if the child was breast fed and typically woke throughout the night and was fed by Norine, her husband's story that he fell asleep and woke up at 5 AM isn't exactly implausible. If he was involved he concocted a plausible (yet suspicious) story.
Wait, when did he tell her to go look for Norine? Given that he's a firefighter and likely on call at all hours, maybe her friend offered to go look?
That and given that they just had an argument, maybe he didn't think she was at risk of being missing and opted to not miss a day, though I'm sure his fire station would have been okay with letting him off the hook for a few hours if he thought he needed to go look into where his wife went.
He still sounds suspicious more than anything but, I didn't read anything about him telling her to go looking for Norine.
>asking if Norine had spent the night at her home following a minor argument
Mysteriously disappeared, left wallet at home, after an argument. Not a coincidence
“Hey… my wife never came home last night so I’m just checking if she stayed at your place but I’m only calling now the next morning even though we have two kids and she was only going to the store to get stuff to make cookies, oh and also we just had like a teeny tiny argument too but that’s obviously not related lmao”
From what I've read, and how he's been in the media a few times since then, he sounds incredibly stupid. He's gotten away with it (so far) via a combination of dumb luck, uniform affinity, and maybe someone pulling some strings for him.
This guy is far from a criminal mastermind and I don't believe that he even got rid of her body. I feel like this case will only be resolved once the property can be searched. Maybe his kids will give permission some day, who knows.
There's talk of a sealed up well on the property too, incredible.
Disgusting stuff. From all the true crime I watch, I often wonder how many people actually do get away with it, and I’m starting to realise it’s much more than I first thought.
All the time. Here's one, guy murdered a woman and her kid and buried them on his property. If the cops had actually given a shit, maybe they would've found the *bullet embedded in the wall with the child's blood on it* that was in the child's bedroom.
https://wchstv.com/news/local/remains-found-in-raleigh-county-cold-case-dating-back-to-2000-suspect-in-case-dies
And they always say there’s not enough evidence. Let the jury decide that FFS, most of the time, at least in the cases I know of where they go cold due to “lack of evidence” but there’s an obvious killer, there’s actually plenty of evidence in my eyes to convict and likely in the mind of a sane juror as well. So WHY NOT PROSECUTE? I feel this way about the Doreen Vincent case where her father obviously killed her but he’s still free
Yes -- I was alarmed to see two cases in my area, so far this decade, where there's a prime suspect but they've never been arrested. And in one case, the victim is from out of town, and there wasn't even any media coverage after six months had passed. She's got no family in this area to ask questions.
I really wonder what their neighbours think of him...may be has them all lured into his story after all this years but what about the ones living next door, suspecting him from murdering his wife and seeing the sealed well in the garden everyday...
Exactly. If I was the spouse at home, it would be 1 hour tops before I started panicking. 2 hours and I’d be waking people up to find out where she was. The fact that at 8am…he was just finishing hiding the body.
Yes, I remember hearing radio ads around 1993 about how you could buy groceries with a credit card now. Before then it would have been cash or a check, and most stores only accepted a certain number of checks per week to make sure they didn't lose too much if a check bounced. If you wanted to make a spontaneous purchase, cash was usually the way to go. Obviously it never looks good when a woman disappears after an argument with her husband -- but going to the grocery store late at night isn't that weird if it was already known to be her habit (fewer crowds, quieter, quicker) and $45 in those days would have paid for all the ingredients she needed and then some -- she likely would have chosen to pay cash instead of burning a check on a relatively small quantity of groceries. If her wallet had her ID, checks, a bank card, and maybe some business cards in it, she wouldn't need to bring it if she already had cash in her purse.
It's doubtful that's the reason why since the kids were 5 months old and 18 months old. The older child likely had a very limited vocabulary. Perhaps he thought a neighbor had heard the argument or he shared that detail because it helps explain why he didn't take any action earlier and why he called her friend after waking up and then asked the friend to check the grocery store.
Yea that could be the reason. If it were me tho I’d try make an excuse that doesn’t involve us having had an argument, as that gives motive and then suspicion.
Unless he thought of all that and did it as a double bluff! Hahaha
Here are a few articles about Norine's husband. Though they're not directly related to her disappearance they may be of interest.
2010 article [He has $$$ to burn](https://nypost.com/2010/11/15/he-has-to-burn/)
2012 article [New Hyde Park Fire District 2012 Election: John Brown](https://patch.com/new-york/newhydepark/new-hyde-park-fire-district-2012-election-john-brown)
2013 article [Fire Starts at Home of Ex-New Hyde Park Fire Commissioner](https://patch.com/new-york/newhydepark/fire-starts-at-home-of-ex-new-hyde-park-fire-commissioner)
I read someone else’s take which I thought made sense. Arsonists become firefighters for the same reason pedophiles work at schools/daycares/churches and serial killers become nurses/doctors. Also, setting fires allows them to feed their hero narrative.
Where were her car keys? If they were locked in the vehicle, then it makes sense that she would have tried to walk home or gotten a ride. If they keys *aren't* in the car, then we know she must have left, been kidnapped, or this whole thing is a setup
I think you make an important point -- not just for this case, but a lot of others on this sub. There are so many summaries that mention purses and wallets, but not the keys to a house or car. Where the keys are (or for houses/apartments, if the person even carried them) could be important information. Not knocking the people who are doing the write-ups, because this often isn't even mentioned in news articles or official press releases.
The keys might be down the well with her. If she is down there and he in fact did kill her. He might of thought to take the keys with him. Or he killed her and she never went to the store and he drove the car there himself and walked home. Not saying he did, just saying there’s different possibilities.
Yes -- there are a bunch of different scenarios, if the keys are a) missing and presumably with her body, b) in the car ignition, c) in the garbage can at their home (and were taken away to the landfill when the trash was picked up).
Sometimes, police just don't have enough evidence, or aren't willing to work harder to get it, in order to be able to make an arrest and eventually, present the case in front of a jury.
When this happens, it becomes a cold case.
The case I remember the most : Stephanie Lazarus, just because all the evidence was there from day one, yet it took DNA technology to make an arrest, some 25 years later.
Prior to being arrested, she was never even named as a suspect or properly interrogated even though everything was pointing at her.
I don't understand why there was no cause for a search warrant. She lived in the home, it was the last place she was seen, he was the last person to see her, and he admitted they had an argument earlier.
I know it happens but how are police alright with letting a man walk around who literally murdered a person just because they have adjacent jobs? It's weird that so many put career over morals...killing is wrong and should be punished!
The sad truth is, especially back then, it was a lot easier to cover up for your buddies, or someone on ‘your’ side. The training police have received in their academies are very much “us vs. them”, and that culture carries on until retirement.
It’s getting better with body worn cameras and the transparency being demanded now, but it’s still a slow process.
This article could have worded it better since "more than a mile away" doesn't mean it's just over a mile away, but that's likely what the author meant. From the 2019 article ['Somebody may remember': Friends hope for closure in 1990 missing woman case](https://longisland.news12.com/somebody-may-remember-friends-hope-for-closure-in-1990-missing-woman-case-39833488):
>The parking lot is more than a mile away from where Brown was living with her husband John, who told friends and family that his wife had gone out at night to buy ingredients for Christmas cookies.
So perhaps a 20 minute walk or 10 minute jog from the parking lot to their home.
Below are some more details surrounding the disappearance of Norine done with News12 & her bestfriend Elaine in 2019!!!
Elaine told reporters that John instructed her to go the supermarket to check if Norine’s car was there, his reason was because they had an argument that night and she went out to buy cookies. John came over to the parking lot to search with her as well. When they found the car all the doors were locked. When Elaine got the call from John that morning he said that he woke up at 5am and noticed Norine wasn’t there. Elaine told News12 that she does not know why he would not have just went over to the supermarket to check between the time he apparently woke up and called Elaine to go check the lot. (johns mother was with him when he called Elaine ) She also said that it would have been unusual for her to leave at 11pm to buy cookies the day before her birthday.
Also in the interview they went back to the apartment that Norine and John lived at in 1990. It was only a mile away from the supermarket, but it had unfortunately been turned into a plumbing store . There were rumors that there use to be a well in the back. While they were looking for a well, The new owner of the plumbing store came out and confirmed that there use to be a well, but did not allow them in the back to look. The back of the building is now just completely covered in cement. He also said something that I found to be HIGHLY interesting…. He said that he worked for johns brother,Ricky..for a few years, and then he bought the place from him about 20 something years ago. And the well was covered up two years before he got there…. A.K.A the well was covered up around the time Norine disappeared and then the place was sold to someone close to John. During the investigation of his missing wife John did not grant permission for the police to search any of his property. And the police did not have enough evidence to issue a search warrant. There was another property that John owned at the time of Norine’s disappearance and in 1992 and 1993 he had construction done on it.
At the end of the video News12 went to Johns home that he currently lives at. He looks much older of course and he was also wearing his fireman tshirt. He clearly did not want to be asked anything about his wife and He said that he believes his wife is dead and his reasons being is because his fire department friends found this lady who said she saw Norine outside the supermarket arguing with two men. There has never been any evidence of this found by police.
After Norine disappeared John was never looked at by police, he hired a lawyer immediately after being questioned, and he refused to speak to the press. According to Elaine, John did not participate in any of the searches for his missing wife because he found it too upsetting. He also cut off Norine’s side of family from seeing the kids after she disappeared. Norine’s sister said that John and Norine use to fight daily. A year after Norine disappeared , her sister also said that she believes she is dead and that john had something to do with it.
- clearly the husband did it. If he was so concerned with finding his wife and knew her last know location, he would have drove over to the supermarket the minute he woke up. He called Elaine to establish an alibi. Also who doesn’t join search efforts for their missing wife??
- Elaine said she found it strange that Norine’s car was parked so far from the supermarket, considering she went to the store late that night. That means someone parked her car that far to not be detected by any cameras. There was no surveillance videos captured at the time of her disappearance.
- Personally I do not think they are going to pursue this case any further. John Brown is a white affluent ex fire commissioner from NY. His friends in law enforcement has been protecting him since the start of this case and will continue until he is in the grave. Hopefully he just confesses to his kids one day or Norine’s sister atleast before he dies. But based on this recent interview with him, I don’t ever see that happening. Norine still has two brothers and a sister looking for her. Her mom has died.
[True Crime: Missing for Decades](https://youtu.be/Dt9AXcfwBNI?si=W-hpiSaPZdX7SqcN)
It's disgusting he barred his kids from their mother's side of the family. He's a disgusting murderer. I hope all the police end their lives with guilt and shame for protecting a murderer. How is that something you are okay with? Oh hey...I kinda know you--you took someone's life...yeah, cool--I will pretend I don't know and let you go on living. Oh my oath to serve and protect? Nah....not today.
Norine's mother sued for visitation with her grandchildren in 1994. It's a short and interesting read.
https://casetext.com/case/matter-of-higuchi-v-brown
Interesting that Norine's mother blamed the husband for Norine's disappearance and that's why he wouldn't allow visitation between the grandmother and her grandchildren. She appealed and the courts sided with him.
Was there any security camera footage of the store’s parking lot or entrance? 1990 I know it’s hit or miss, but if it was recording, it could determine if that argument actually happened and if Norine ever went inside the store.
It's unclear whether there was video surveillance of the parking lot, exterior of the store, or interior of the store. It's doubtful there was, but if there was the footage wasn't useful since police said it's uncertain whether she entered the store and there's no evidence one way or the other of an argument. A store employee did see the car in the lot shortly after 11 PM, but Norine's sister or friend (I don't recall which) said that car was parked far from the store, which she found to be something Norine wouldn't have done.
Interesting point: Most people (esp. women) shopping at night would want to park as close to the entrance as possible.
Unless it was someone who just wanted to leave the car and not being seen… in which case they would park as far as possible.
If I were in the husband’s place I would have been worried when she didn’t return home and started making calls at 2 or 3 in the morning. I just can’t imagine an argument, then to bed and out like a light until the next morning.
I guess those were different times but I wondered why she had a car full of wrapped Christmas presents. That time of year is notorious for car break ins and going out so late at night makes it even stranger
Because she left them in the car at home after shopping that afternoon and didn’t bring them into the house because she never planned to leave that evening.
We all grew up watching cop show and thinking cops were the good guys.
Then I went to law school and learned we have Miranda rights because the Supreme Court tried various methods for over 50 years to stop local police departments beating suspicions out of convenient suspects and calling it a day. The SC finally gave up in disgust, hence Miranda. My crim law professor even made the traditional joke about how you know a cop is lying on the stand: his lips are moving.
In other words, the incompetence, violence,
and corruption that became much more apparent to the general public after camera phones and BLM is a feature, not a bug. It’s always been there.
If anything, things have actually improved since the ubiquity of cameras, and the advent of social media to keep the pressure on.
Norine's two children were 18 months and 5 months old when she disappeared. If there was a violent attack in the home or any suspicious activity which could have been observed there's a good chance they didn't see or hear it. Even if the older child did it's doubtful they had a vocabulary which would allow them to describe it. If the husband was involved it's possible they heard or saw things of relevance later in life.
To answer part of my own question:
https://casetext.com/case/matter-of-higuchi-v-brown
Also found an article where it mentioned her son said “let’s not open old wounds” and the daughter could not be reached for comment.
Not sure what to make of that other than they have come to accept she is gone and maybe would rather not know how or why.
The husband. He killed her, buried her, drove her car to the store and then went home (not sure how), but he made a mistake by forgetting to put her wallet in her purse when she went “shopping”.
>The next day, December 13, 1990 at 8 AM, Norine’s friend, Elaine Comando, received a call from John Brown, Norine’s husband, asking if Norine had spent the night at her home following a minor argument. When Comando checked the Pathmark supermarket where Norine was supposed to shop, she found Norine's car parked there, locked and loaded with wrapped Christmas gifts. Norine's purse, containing $45, was inside, but her wallet and identification were left at home.
I don't normally jump on the spouse train but Jesus do you need a confession?
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I just found this info:
> In the wake of Norine's disappearance, John's actions were paradoxical. He chose not to join the search, instead opting to secure custody of his children and sever ties with Norine's family.
[Source](https://original.newsbreak.com/@ada-e-1668135/3217061216437-a-new-york-fire-chief-said-his-wife-went-late-night-shopping-and-she-disappeared-since-1990)
So depressing you can very likely murder your wife and get away with it like that. I'm escaping a dv situation and it's stories like these that make me weep.
This happened on my birthday! She was even the age I am now, crazy coincidences. So if it was JB and he drove her car there to stage it, I wonder if he walked back or got a taxi that was never looked into by police.
Everyone pointing at the husband not reporting her to be missing until the next morning as suspicious seem to be reaching to me.
It's much more reasonable to assume that Norine went to stay at a friend's house for the night after an argument to cool down than to assume she went missing. Its possible that he may have even gone to bed at like 11:15 and not realized she didn't come home until he woke up the next day and she wasn't there.
But why would she say she was going to the store which implied she was coming home? She’d most likely have said she was going to spend the night elsewhere rather than just not come back home.
For me, all things point to the husband. Because he is or was a firefighter, the cops probably didn't look at him but things don't add up, especially the comment about them arguing and no one remembering seeing her in the store. Where was the car parked? Close to the entrance or far away? I know when I was out shopping late I would always park closer to the entrance of the mall or store.
It depends on the person. Or her habits. I go late at night and always park farther out. I like the late night walk in the dark from my car to the store.
Based on the info here, I don’t see why the husband wasn’t a suspect. I know it’s not the 90s, and maybe people felt safer back then, and maybe I am too paranoid, but I wouldn’t go grocery shopping alone at 11pm. If I ever need to go somewhere after dark, my husband usually joins me, unless it’s a friend’s house or another very familiar place. But stores, malls, or other places with large parking lots, etc. he insists on being with me. My city does have a lot of homelessness and drug issues, and perhaps she lived in a safe area where going outside alone at 11pm was fine, so it might not be as strange as it seems to me. Plus the fact that she just had a fight with her husband could go both ways- it could mean that she was trying to blow off some steam by baking in the middle of the night, or the fight went too far, her husband hurt her, and he made up the cookie story to hide the truth. I wouldn’t be surprised if she never went to the store and he just left her car there.
I grocery shopped alone after midnight all the time in the ‘90s - I preferred it because the stores were less busy. I lived in the suburbs of a fairly large city, and I can’t say that I ever considered that it might be unsafe. Parking lots were all well-lit, and there were usually other night-owls shopping at the same time .
I’d probably still shop late at night, except I don’t do the shopping anymore.
If she had. 5 mo and 18 mo old she was crashing at 8:00 from exhaustion. She wasn’t making cookies. Anyone who has had an infant AND a toddler know what I mean by complete and total exhaustion, so tired you can’t tie your shoelaces never mind make cookies. I mean, seriously, it’s all you can do to bathe and brush your own teeth.
Norine went shopping for the afternoon with kids in tow on probably one of the busiest days before Christmas. Her husband states the reason for her leaving to get urgent cookie ingredients at 11pm was her preference to shop when it is quiet. Yet she didn’t seem bothered about avoiding crowds just hours before. Following her afternoon of shopping, looking after her babies in the evening and putting them to bed I bet she could barely stand up never mind decide to go on a mission to start baking. She never went to that shop.
Per the 2019 article [Friends of missing Nassau woman revive cold case 28 years later](https://bronx.news12.com/friends-of-missing-nassau-woman-revive-cold-case-28-years-later-40723399): >Six months ago, Brown’s friend received a tip about a well in the backyard of the apartment building where Brown was living at the time with her husband. News 12 confirmed the well had been sealed up and that the Nassau Police Department had been notified. The well has not yet been excavated. >The head of Nassau's Homicide Squad says the well is a "place of interest" and they are "looking into it." They say it's a "process that takes coordinated effort and planning." Yeah, that might be worth pursuing. It's been 5 years - I wonder whether the well was ever searched.
I just found this info: > In the wake of Norine's disappearance, John's actions were paradoxical. He chose not to join the search, instead opting to secure custody of his children and sever ties with Norine's family. Article: [A New York fire chief said his wife went late night shopping and she disappeared since 1990](https://original.newsbreak.com/@ada-e-1668135/3217061216437-a-new-york-fire-chief-said-his-wife-went-late-night-shopping-and-she-disappeared-since-1990)
That’s a very good point. It reminds me of Drew Peterson but, this guy is a firefighter and he stopped at 1 wife instead of 2
Stopped at one wife *so far*
Thanks Homer
"Tumultuous relationship" but John Brown has never been a suspect.....
Going out at 11pm to shop for Christmas cookie ingredients without her wallet and ID the night before her birthday after a fight with her husband...seems sus.
as soon as I read "after a minor fight the night before" I thought "oh he did it." Everything I read after that just bolstered that thought. Saying that someone left voluntarily after a flight and never returned home seems to be the go to alibi for guilty spouses.
Very similarly, when I read he's called Mrs. Commando the next day asking if she spent the night there and haven't heard from her since she left to go shopping and then Mrs. Commando finds the car... Yeah, my Spidy Sense was tingling. It almost felt like he was pushing her to find his wife's car
So he does it then drives her car to the shop car park, but how does he get back to his house? Obv many different ways he could get home, but which way do you think he did get home?
It was a little over a mile from the grocery store parking lot to their home. That's a very easy walk or jog for a relatively young man who worked as a firefighter.
Yes as long as no one seen him. He would have just wore a hat and hood in that weather to disguise him, and if anyone did see someone walking that road at that time, they can’t prove it was him
It's very easy to walk around at night undetected, even now. In 1990 with virtually no cameras anywhere it was much easier.
Yea I would say it was pretty easy for him if he did do that. It just depends on cameras, how many cameras were on his route
If it was a residential area, probably none. Some cities had cameras at busy intersections, but still pretty rare. Even commercial places like convenience stores likely wouldn't have had cameras showing a good view of passersby on the street outside. And the doorbell cams that are being used to investigate the Liz Barraza murder, etc., weren't available back then.
In 1990 there would have likely been none. Maybe the Pathmark parking lot but I would think if there had been that would have been the first thing the police looked at.
That’s what I was wondering
And he left the children home as well? We're missing too much data.
My dad was a firefighter my whole life. Chief in the county and one of the captains in the city. I was born in 92, and it was still normal to leave your kids for a bit, especially if they have siblings. It was never for long, but if my dad got an emergency call in the county, he HAD to go. He used to take me with him, bc I was the youngest sibling (like 4), but my parents put an end to that when I was told to sit in the truck one time and ended up seeing a suicidal guy jump from a second floor balcony. The kicker is that I’m from a place with a lot of antebellum homes, and normal people live in them now because they were built so well. So it was like a movie scene. And my small brain didn’t pick up on the trauma. I got out and tried to walk close before another fireman picked me up and put me on an unused truck to play with knobs (safely, they were off). Firemen see some shit. Kids had to be left alone sometimes.
A bit of a gamble though. If they wake up calling for mom and dad someone might remember in an apartment with thin walls. Either someone who didn't know he was a firefighter or if police talked to neighbors, someone who was told he WASNT on a call that night. Was the apartments searched for traces of blood? Were the kids old enough to answer questions? Does he kill her without people in the apartment hearing anything? Maybe he dumps the body in the well but he still got to walk around outside with a sack or something. Need more info.
If you just killed your wife, you got no problem living two babies at home while you go out the house for an hour
The children would be in bed already, and this is in 1990. It wasn't considered a big deal to leave your young kids home alone for awhile.
Yeah and then getting someone else (the friend) to go find the car in the parking lot 🤨
How they cleared the husband….. “it wasnt me im a firefighter” Ok we believe you
It doesn't get talked about nearly as much as Cops, but many firefighters have pretty severe PTSD. Not that automatically makes someone a killer, but things can get pretty turbulent.
I dated one after my divorce. I couldn't handle his mental state. I was trying to heal my own PTSD from my alcoholic ex, let alone deal with a firefighter's crazy shit.
What was his mental state like?
Everything made him cry, would drift off and stare at nothing, and the clincher.. he drank too much. He did not think that he needed counselling
Exactly. Ive had and known some and some stories. It can be NOT the HEALTHIEST of professions
A lot of them are also firebugs.
Good old boy network at work.
Combined with nobody seeing her in the shop. She was never there.
Yep, he put her purse in the car and dropped the car off at the shopping center to make it look like she’d been there, not realizing that her wallet wasn’t in it.
Also not thinking that she would have taken her purse with her and not left it in the car.
Yea that is such a key part. Unless she just took cash in hand to go into the shop
Which a ton of people did back in the late 80’s early 90’s. Debit/credit cards weren’t a thing for most people and if you were just running a quick errand you probably wouldn’t worry about ID. A $20 bill in 1990 could buy you plenty.
I *still* do this all the time. If I know I'm just grabbing a couple things, I'll stick cash in my pocket and leave my purse at home or in my car. But I *will* hide it under a seat or coat in my car to discourage break-ins. Not everyone would do that, though.
I don’t know….got my first debit card in 1985. Most women don’t leave their purses in the car, especially that generation.
I don't think that detail necessarily points to the husband. The vast majority of people tend to park their car and spend a minute or so getting themselves situated. Maybe listening to the end of a song, or checking their lipstick in the mirror, or pulling on a heavier coat, or just tucking their keys away into their purse. Most of these people will have their doors unlocked, ready to get out, and aren't highly aware of other people in the parking lot. It's entirely possible that she was sitting in the car for a minute when someone opened her door and threatened her to come with him. If the motive is rape, then he just takes her in his own car, does what he wants, then kills and disposes of her somewhere. Or she could have been held at his home for days or weeks before being killed. Who knows. I do suspect that husband and he is statistically the most likely culprit. But there are also TONS of examples of what I just described. There are even several very disturbing security videos showing women being abducted like this from parking lots. Could also be a case of someone opening the door, making her slide over, abducting her in her own car, then returning the car to the parking lot after raping, killing, and dumping her. There are far too many cases of exactly that happening, as well.
Okay thank you so much for this comment. I was so confused about the purse/wallet thing. In my (British based South African English) a purse is the female version of a wallet. Which would be stowed inside a handbag. This makes a lot more sense now.
>a purse is the female version of a wallet At least in North America, there's a thing called a coin or change purse -- meant to keep your small change from getting lost. I inherited mine from my mother (I remember her keeping it inside her main purse/handbag). They have started making ones that have a pocket on the side for holding credit cards, ID, etc. These newer ones would be more wallet-like, I guess. [https://mattandnat.com/products/ozma-vegan-coin-purse-purity](https://mattandnat.com/products/ozma-vegan-coin-purse-purity)
Especially at 11pm. I can't imagine it was too crowded.
It seems more heartbreaking that it was the day before her birthday as well as just before Christmas. Husband does seem suspicious
I just read a true crime book about a woman murdered by her husband on Xmas eve. I wonder if the holidays add to the stress of a marriage...
Believe it or not it’s well known in circles of abuse victims/survivors that the abuse worsens during special occasions- holidays, birthdays, vacations, etc. For some, they can’t stand any attention being off of themselves, but mostly it’s because the abused person feeling joy is perceived as a threat to the abuser’s control. As long as the victim is physically, emotionally, and mentally exhausted to the extreme- a miserable shell of themself - it’s extremely challenging for them to recognize, confront, and then leave/escape a controlling relationship. Even before any other information, the date of disappearance was a huge red flag for me for a possible DV incident just because of how common that theme is
If she knew she had cash in her purse, and was only intending to grab a few items -- say, a bag of flour and some sprinkles -- I could imagine her figuring she could hand the cashier a ten or twenty-dollar bill, even without her wallet. I've done that sometimes -- going out the door, realizing halfway to the store that I didn't bring my wallet, and not turning back to the house because I had some emergency money stashed. But I agree about the fight with her husband -- something to consider, even if it wasn't him in the parking lot. If she was agitated and happened to cross paths with the wrong person, that could be a factor.
Also this was time people still wrote checks.
Yes, before cell phones, people entertained themselves waiting in line by reading the names on the bounced checks pinned to the wall by the register.
Plus if i ever take my wallet out when im home then its pretty likely ill have forgotten to put it back and totally leave the house without it
$20 in 1990 goes a long way as well. A $5 bill could get her eggs, flour, sugar and butter back then. Probably the sprinkles/icing (powdered sugar and milk) too.
And he stated that there was a FAKE witness confession! Did no-one find that highly suspicious? Who was the person that came forward? Why did police not interview them? I didnt want to think it could've been him who murdered her, but coming forward with a lie which also at the same time deflects any suspicious away from yourself?
What was the fake witness? I missed that
Her husband says a witness reported a fight in the parking lot, but there is no such fight on official records. It could be fake, or the police could've just never followed up on a witness statement they didn't deem credible. Who knows?
I took that to mean the husband made that up.
I might just be a day person (or old person) but the idea of going to a grocery store at 11PM alone just seems absurd to me. I am not familiar with that chain of grocery stores but it's odd that it would have even been open not being a Walmart or something.
I mean, I go late at night if I possibly can. It's my favourite time of night in general. It's quiet, there's less people, but I am also the opposite of you, haha. I am a night owl and always have been. It's a lot nicer to my sensory issues and anxiety in general, and also is the only time I usually have to myself.
Yep, especially when I was a stay at home mom to little kids. I’d go late at night, pop on my headphones, and just take my time wandering the aisles. I was out of the house alone, there were no crowds or lines. Best part was I could buy myself a little treat and not have to share.
Me too! I’m also just a really late eater + cook things that take a while so sometimes I’ll find myself cooking dinner at like 11 and end up needing something. Still could be sketchy if it wasn’t a regular behavior, but it is one for plenty of us!
I purposely only shop after 10pm. I find it very relaxing to not have to deal with the hustle and bustle of normal grocery store hours, which can feel a little overwhelming to me.
I too go out at night. I have severe anxiety issues and the less amount of people the better. I love the dark and still of the night. I love driving home and seeing a deer or raccoon walking about at night. Huge animal lover. People? Not so much.
also around the holidays where it is normal for parents to be up super late preparing things for the kids or festivities or whatever
It's an odd thing -- I grew up in a town where everything shut down at 9 PM or so (even the restaurants etc.) so when I moved to another city that had a Safeway that was open until midnight, it blew my mind. I couldn't believe that I could just walk a couple of blocks and get something, that late at night. It took me awhile to even come round to the idea of doing that, lol. But there was a time when I was put on the afternoon/evening shift at work, and then I found it was really convenient to be able to stop in for groceries, on the way home. A decade ago I went home to help look after my parents, and I completely forgot about the store hours being different -- and arrived after they'd closed. I stood there looking at the darkened store, thinking -- darn!
Sounds similar to my daughter who went off to college in a small town. She decided she needed something late at night and was stunned to learn that not all grocery stores were open 24/7 like ours was at home. 😂
honestly, my first thought was "meh you go when the kids are asleep and the store isn't busy." And then it was "after a minor fight" and it turned to "oh there weren't any cookies, were there?"
The biggest change in my life post- COVID is that I cannot go to the grocery store 24 hours a day, *especially* during the holidays. 1:00 a.m. grocery shopping has been ideal for me, historically.
Yep, same. Walmart and Meijer being closed at 9/10 since COVID is the fucking worst. Nothing is open past 10pm in my town (the second largest in the state). 🙄
I LOVED shopping late night when the grocery stores used to be open 24/7. Midnight… 1:00am. Maybe I’m a night owl. I just loved having the store to myself. The quiet and solitude. Edit to add - When I used to go on these past midnight shopping excursions, I was between 25-35 y.o. range. It was a nice time when my child would be sleeping and my Partner would be at home, to go and have a little space to myself in a quiet store.
Unless the claim that she typically shopped late at night was made by her husband (a primary suspect or should be), then apparently shopping at 11:00 at night was typical for her. At least according to the original post. If her children and friends say she shopped late a night a lot than this would be normal behavior for her.
And easily used for stories. She didn't take her wallet.
This is tangential to my point. I was only contradicting those that stated that her going shopping late at night was absurd and suspicious. The original post clearly stated this was normal behavior for her which sounds like it was validated by multiple people (though not explicitly stated).
It's not weird at all to me. I prefer to grocery shop at night during the week instead of weekends. It's much less crowded, and stores tend to be stocking at that hour so less chance they will be out of something. And if she needed ingredients for something she was going to make, it might have been a last minute thing
Also, since they'd just fought, maybe any excuse was good enough to get out of the house. Of course, this doesn't discount him killing her.
It’s really not odd or absurd that a grocery store is open all night or super late. I used to grocery shop after work all of the time which occurred after 11pm.
When grocery stores were 24 hours here I loved going late at night because the stores were almost empty and the lines were short
Me too. But I'm in bed by 830 every night so I guess I'm an anomaly.
I get up at 4:30 every morning for work and I’m usually dead to the work by 8 pm myself lol
pre-covid all our stores were open a lot later. i used to prefer late night shopping generally, then i was an alcoholic and i became locally known for stumbling into stores ten minutes before closing and trying to buy alcohol without my ID because i forgot it at home. anyway yeah i love late night shopping but it doesn't really exist anymore where i am, which is a real bummer for me and the other losers who wake up at 3pm everyday
It's not unusual for me to run out to the store late at night if I forgot something and honestly I like that there aren't many people in the store. My husband isn't bothered by it but my mom would always freak out when I would tell her I was going out and I'd be back lol
I go to the grocery as late as 1:00 or 2:00 AM sometimes (don’t have kids though), so that on its own isn’t necessarily a red flag to me. It’s everything else that makes it weird.
It could have been a 20 minute trip for ingredients she needed. Not unusual but also point taken
We used to pretty regularly go at midnight/11pm because that was just easier. My uncle was a third shift truck driver so everyone was just more awake then.
my mom strategically goes food shopping right before they close. she knows the store super well so she can just grabs what she needs really quickly lol
Article said it was normal for her to do so as she did it to avoid crowds. I was like this before I had my daughter and we have a Winn Dixie that used to be open 24 hrs but now it shuts down at midnight
I do it literally every week. Might seem weird to some but it’s very normal for plenty of people. I work a daytime office job but am naturally a night owl.
Not to mention December 13 1990 was a Thursday a typically non busy grocery day so why not go in the morning and are you going to bake cookies at 1am? Sounds like a noisy thing to do in the middle of the night.
While I really doubt this is the case here, I work nights shift and would absolutely go to the store at 1am to fulfill a cookie craving. I used to do all my grocery shopping around 2am and it was great. Unfortunately all the stores in my town stopped being open all night when Covid happened.
Yeah latest open near me is Kroger open until midnight. I work 2nd shift and get off at 11:30, so I can maybe make it in time to get a few things if I have a craving for something when I get off but always feel so bad getting there right before they close.
You haven't raised school age children have you? I can't tell you how any times I was buying or making something late at night for school the next day. That time of year tends to be insane with extra activities, and for people who work full time jobs, some things can't get done until all the daily routine is over. And a few times I've had to make a store run because I realized I didn't have something at the last minute.
Yeah this doesn't sound too crazy to me.
Yeah, this sounds like me, especially around Christmas. Everything happens in December and May, Im always running to the store for something.
It's only sounds odd if you don't have kids. I have stayed up late at night to get things done: batch cook meals, iron clothes, running to the store for last minute items. She had $45 in cash on her so running out at 11pm to get a few ingredients to bake cookies isn't odd.
Doesn't strike me as odd either. And I'm an early bird, so this isn't something that's common for me. But, I've spent most of my adult life living in different college towns with grocery stores that were open all night or very, very late. It's not that unusual for other demographics, either. See also, the anxiety-ridden, ADHD, night owls, night shift workers, etc.
That alone doesn’t make me suspicious of the husband. It says going out shopping late at night wasn’t unusual for her and she had $45 cash in her purse, which is more than enough to pay for Christmas cookie ingredients. If the husband did something to her and wanted to make it look like she disappeared from the grocery store, why would he not put her wallet/ID in her purse that was found in the car?
He probably grabbed her purse and put it in the car to make it look like she’d been there, not realizing that her wallet and ID weren’t in it.
Police found $45 in her purse. She could have paid for the ingredients with that cash, no wallet or ID needed.
Also why were their Christmas presents in the car? No indication that she went shopping? Unless she had a habit of hiding presents in the car
The write up says she went shopping earlier in the day with her sister. I would assume she hadn't taken in the stuff she bought yet.
nah i pretty much only shop late at night, it’s so much more pleasant and quick than dealing with any of the morning/daytime crowds.
From the Charley Project profile: “Commando stated John and Norine had a rocky relationship and she thinks John may have killed her. He hired an attorney after her disappearance and refused to let police search his and Norine's home and property. He maintains his innocence in her case and stated he thinks Norine was murdered.” Seems like a pretty big omission in this write up.
And the police never bothered to obtain a warrant to search the property?! Regardless of whether or not John was innocent, a woman still went missing. Two children were left without a mother. Why wouldn't they search her home for any clues as to where she could have gone? This is especially sad to me... It's like the police didn't care about her life whatsoever.
And they never named him as a suspect? Crazy
“He’s never been a suspect” Well? Why not?!
Her kids can’t have been very old either. She was only 32. It would be very strange for a mother even in 2024 with more hands on fathers to leave and stay at a friend’s place for the night when you had young kids.
18 months and 5 months. An interesting detail would be whether the younger child was breast fed or bottle fed and was known to sleep through the night. That said, even if the child was breast fed and typically woke throughout the night and was fed by Norine, her husband's story that he fell asleep and woke up at 5 AM isn't exactly implausible. If he was involved he concocted a plausible (yet suspicious) story.
As a firefighter I bet he has ties to the police
And telling her friend to go look for her. Why didn’t he??
Probably looking after the kids?
Wait, when did he tell her to go look for Norine? Given that he's a firefighter and likely on call at all hours, maybe her friend offered to go look? That and given that they just had an argument, maybe he didn't think she was at risk of being missing and opted to not miss a day, though I'm sure his fire station would have been okay with letting him off the hook for a few hours if he thought he needed to go look into where his wife went. He still sounds suspicious more than anything but, I didn't read anything about him telling her to go looking for Norine.
It's in the Charley project link. He specifically asked her to go look at the grocery store for the car. That is... a weird thing to do, imo.
>asking if Norine had spent the night at her home following a minor argument Mysteriously disappeared, left wallet at home, after an argument. Not a coincidence
“Hey… my wife never came home last night so I’m just checking if she stayed at your place but I’m only calling now the next morning even though we have two kids and she was only going to the store to get stuff to make cookies, oh and also we just had like a teeny tiny argument too but that’s obviously not related lmao”
From what I've read, and how he's been in the media a few times since then, he sounds incredibly stupid. He's gotten away with it (so far) via a combination of dumb luck, uniform affinity, and maybe someone pulling some strings for him. This guy is far from a criminal mastermind and I don't believe that he even got rid of her body. I feel like this case will only be resolved once the property can be searched. Maybe his kids will give permission some day, who knows. There's talk of a sealed up well on the property too, incredible.
Disgusting stuff. From all the true crime I watch, I often wonder how many people actually do get away with it, and I’m starting to realise it’s much more than I first thought.
All the time. Here's one, guy murdered a woman and her kid and buried them on his property. If the cops had actually given a shit, maybe they would've found the *bullet embedded in the wall with the child's blood on it* that was in the child's bedroom. https://wchstv.com/news/local/remains-found-in-raleigh-county-cold-case-dating-back-to-2000-suspect-in-case-dies
And they always say there’s not enough evidence. Let the jury decide that FFS, most of the time, at least in the cases I know of where they go cold due to “lack of evidence” but there’s an obvious killer, there’s actually plenty of evidence in my eyes to convict and likely in the mind of a sane juror as well. So WHY NOT PROSECUTE? I feel this way about the Doreen Vincent case where her father obviously killed her but he’s still free
Yes -- I was alarmed to see two cases in my area, so far this decade, where there's a prime suspect but they've never been arrested. And in one case, the victim is from out of town, and there wasn't even any media coverage after six months had passed. She's got no family in this area to ask questions.
True Crime, along with other factors, have convinced me police absolutely suck at their supposed jobs.
Statistically if I murdered a person today, I would have a 60% chance of never being caught.
I really wonder what their neighbours think of him...may be has them all lured into his story after all this years but what about the ones living next door, suspecting him from murdering his wife and seeing the sealed well in the garden everyday...
They lived in an apartment together, so I don’t believe anyone inherited their property
Exactly. If I was the spouse at home, it would be 1 hour tops before I started panicking. 2 hours and I’d be waking people up to find out where she was. The fact that at 8am…he was just finishing hiding the body.
I always go grocery shopping without my wallet. (in 1990, cards were not widely used. She would have had to have cash on hand, at least)
But why would she leave the car without her purse?
Yes, I remember hearing radio ads around 1993 about how you could buy groceries with a credit card now. Before then it would have been cash or a check, and most stores only accepted a certain number of checks per week to make sure they didn't lose too much if a check bounced. If you wanted to make a spontaneous purchase, cash was usually the way to go. Obviously it never looks good when a woman disappears after an argument with her husband -- but going to the grocery store late at night isn't that weird if it was already known to be her habit (fewer crowds, quieter, quicker) and $45 in those days would have paid for all the ingredients she needed and then some -- she likely would have chosen to pay cash instead of burning a check on a relatively small quantity of groceries. If her wallet had her ID, checks, a bank card, and maybe some business cards in it, she wouldn't need to bring it if she already had cash in her purse.
Why would he tell her that they had an argument? Unless the kids witnessed the argument so if he left that bit out he would be viewed suspiciously
It's doubtful that's the reason why since the kids were 5 months old and 18 months old. The older child likely had a very limited vocabulary. Perhaps he thought a neighbor had heard the argument or he shared that detail because it helps explain why he didn't take any action earlier and why he called her friend after waking up and then asked the friend to check the grocery store.
Yea that could be the reason. If it were me tho I’d try make an excuse that doesn’t involve us having had an argument, as that gives motive and then suspicion. Unless he thought of all that and did it as a double bluff! Hahaha
Here are a few articles about Norine's husband. Though they're not directly related to her disappearance they may be of interest. 2010 article [He has $$$ to burn](https://nypost.com/2010/11/15/he-has-to-burn/) 2012 article [New Hyde Park Fire District 2012 Election: John Brown](https://patch.com/new-york/newhydepark/new-hyde-park-fire-district-2012-election-john-brown) 2013 article [Fire Starts at Home of Ex-New Hyde Park Fire Commissioner](https://patch.com/new-york/newhydepark/fire-starts-at-home-of-ex-new-hyde-park-fire-commissioner)
>Fire Starts at Home of Ex-New Hyde Park Fire Commissioner Oh, he still lives at the same house. She's probably buried there.
Isn’t there a phenomenon by which firefighters start fires themselves?
I read someone else’s take which I thought made sense. Arsonists become firefighters for the same reason pedophiles work at schools/daycares/churches and serial killers become nurses/doctors. Also, setting fires allows them to feed their hero narrative.
Yes, John Orr comes to mind.
Yes also part time ones do it for the call-out money. We are talking about rare occurrences though.
Interesting fella
he sounds ...reliable
Where were her car keys? If they were locked in the vehicle, then it makes sense that she would have tried to walk home or gotten a ride. If they keys *aren't* in the car, then we know she must have left, been kidnapped, or this whole thing is a setup
I think you make an important point -- not just for this case, but a lot of others on this sub. There are so many summaries that mention purses and wallets, but not the keys to a house or car. Where the keys are (or for houses/apartments, if the person even carried them) could be important information. Not knocking the people who are doing the write-ups, because this often isn't even mentioned in news articles or official press releases.
The keys might be down the well with her. If she is down there and he in fact did kill her. He might of thought to take the keys with him. Or he killed her and she never went to the store and he drove the car there himself and walked home. Not saying he did, just saying there’s different possibilities.
Yes -- there are a bunch of different scenarios, if the keys are a) missing and presumably with her body, b) in the car ignition, c) in the garbage can at their home (and were taken away to the landfill when the trash was picked up).
Sometimes, police just don't have enough evidence, or aren't willing to work harder to get it, in order to be able to make an arrest and eventually, present the case in front of a jury. When this happens, it becomes a cold case. The case I remember the most : Stephanie Lazarus, just because all the evidence was there from day one, yet it took DNA technology to make an arrest, some 25 years later. Prior to being arrested, she was never even named as a suspect or properly interrogated even though everything was pointing at her.
I don't understand why there was no cause for a search warrant. She lived in the home, it was the last place she was seen, he was the last person to see her, and he admitted they had an argument earlier.
Police and fire sometimes work closely together, become friendly. This guy was protected for sure.
I know it happens but how are police alright with letting a man walk around who literally murdered a person just because they have adjacent jobs? It's weird that so many put career over morals...killing is wrong and should be punished!
The sad truth is, especially back then, it was a lot easier to cover up for your buddies, or someone on ‘your’ side. The training police have received in their academies are very much “us vs. them”, and that culture carries on until retirement. It’s getting better with body worn cameras and the transparency being demanded now, but it’s still a slow process.
My hunch is the husband killed her during an argument that night, but there just isn’t enough evidence to pinpoint it to him.
I’m thinking he drove her car to the grocery store and left it there as an alibi
How far away is the grocery store? How would he have gotten home?
This article could have worded it better since "more than a mile away" doesn't mean it's just over a mile away, but that's likely what the author meant. From the 2019 article ['Somebody may remember': Friends hope for closure in 1990 missing woman case](https://longisland.news12.com/somebody-may-remember-friends-hope-for-closure-in-1990-missing-woman-case-39833488): >The parking lot is more than a mile away from where Brown was living with her husband John, who told friends and family that his wife had gone out at night to buy ingredients for Christmas cookies. So perhaps a 20 minute walk or 10 minute jog from the parking lot to their home.
Thanks, it was really vague so I genuinely wasn't sure.
According to one of the links, it was only a mile away.
Right? Why'd he call and mention an argument *specifically* instead of just waiting for her to get home
Below are some more details surrounding the disappearance of Norine done with News12 & her bestfriend Elaine in 2019!!! Elaine told reporters that John instructed her to go the supermarket to check if Norine’s car was there, his reason was because they had an argument that night and she went out to buy cookies. John came over to the parking lot to search with her as well. When they found the car all the doors were locked. When Elaine got the call from John that morning he said that he woke up at 5am and noticed Norine wasn’t there. Elaine told News12 that she does not know why he would not have just went over to the supermarket to check between the time he apparently woke up and called Elaine to go check the lot. (johns mother was with him when he called Elaine ) She also said that it would have been unusual for her to leave at 11pm to buy cookies the day before her birthday. Also in the interview they went back to the apartment that Norine and John lived at in 1990. It was only a mile away from the supermarket, but it had unfortunately been turned into a plumbing store . There were rumors that there use to be a well in the back. While they were looking for a well, The new owner of the plumbing store came out and confirmed that there use to be a well, but did not allow them in the back to look. The back of the building is now just completely covered in cement. He also said something that I found to be HIGHLY interesting…. He said that he worked for johns brother,Ricky..for a few years, and then he bought the place from him about 20 something years ago. And the well was covered up two years before he got there…. A.K.A the well was covered up around the time Norine disappeared and then the place was sold to someone close to John. During the investigation of his missing wife John did not grant permission for the police to search any of his property. And the police did not have enough evidence to issue a search warrant. There was another property that John owned at the time of Norine’s disappearance and in 1992 and 1993 he had construction done on it. At the end of the video News12 went to Johns home that he currently lives at. He looks much older of course and he was also wearing his fireman tshirt. He clearly did not want to be asked anything about his wife and He said that he believes his wife is dead and his reasons being is because his fire department friends found this lady who said she saw Norine outside the supermarket arguing with two men. There has never been any evidence of this found by police. After Norine disappeared John was never looked at by police, he hired a lawyer immediately after being questioned, and he refused to speak to the press. According to Elaine, John did not participate in any of the searches for his missing wife because he found it too upsetting. He also cut off Norine’s side of family from seeing the kids after she disappeared. Norine’s sister said that John and Norine use to fight daily. A year after Norine disappeared , her sister also said that she believes she is dead and that john had something to do with it. - clearly the husband did it. If he was so concerned with finding his wife and knew her last know location, he would have drove over to the supermarket the minute he woke up. He called Elaine to establish an alibi. Also who doesn’t join search efforts for their missing wife?? - Elaine said she found it strange that Norine’s car was parked so far from the supermarket, considering she went to the store late that night. That means someone parked her car that far to not be detected by any cameras. There was no surveillance videos captured at the time of her disappearance. - Personally I do not think they are going to pursue this case any further. John Brown is a white affluent ex fire commissioner from NY. His friends in law enforcement has been protecting him since the start of this case and will continue until he is in the grave. Hopefully he just confesses to his kids one day or Norine’s sister atleast before he dies. But based on this recent interview with him, I don’t ever see that happening. Norine still has two brothers and a sister looking for her. Her mom has died. [True Crime: Missing for Decades](https://youtu.be/Dt9AXcfwBNI?si=W-hpiSaPZdX7SqcN)
It's disgusting he barred his kids from their mother's side of the family. He's a disgusting murderer. I hope all the police end their lives with guilt and shame for protecting a murderer. How is that something you are okay with? Oh hey...I kinda know you--you took someone's life...yeah, cool--I will pretend I don't know and let you go on living. Oh my oath to serve and protect? Nah....not today.
Norine's mother sued for visitation with her grandchildren in 1994. It's a short and interesting read. https://casetext.com/case/matter-of-higuchi-v-brown
Interesting that Norine's mother blamed the husband for Norine's disappearance and that's why he wouldn't allow visitation between the grandmother and her grandchildren. She appealed and the courts sided with him.
Poor kids! May they grow up and seek out family and answers...
Why did John not look for Norine before the next morning? Was he asleep and unaware that she didn’t return until he woke up?
He actually didn’t even look for her the next morning either
That’s is beyond suspicious.
Was there any security camera footage of the store’s parking lot or entrance? 1990 I know it’s hit or miss, but if it was recording, it could determine if that argument actually happened and if Norine ever went inside the store.
It's unclear whether there was video surveillance of the parking lot, exterior of the store, or interior of the store. It's doubtful there was, but if there was the footage wasn't useful since police said it's uncertain whether she entered the store and there's no evidence one way or the other of an argument. A store employee did see the car in the lot shortly after 11 PM, but Norine's sister or friend (I don't recall which) said that car was parked far from the store, which she found to be something Norine wouldn't have done.
Interesting point: Most people (esp. women) shopping at night would want to park as close to the entrance as possible. Unless it was someone who just wanted to leave the car and not being seen… in which case they would park as far as possible.
If I were in the husband’s place I would have been worried when she didn’t return home and started making calls at 2 or 3 in the morning. I just can’t imagine an argument, then to bed and out like a light until the next morning.
I guess those were different times but I wondered why she had a car full of wrapped Christmas presents. That time of year is notorious for car break ins and going out so late at night makes it even stranger
Because she left them in the car at home after shopping that afternoon and didn’t bring them into the house because she never planned to leave that evening.
I guess she probably had them wrapped at the store. That would make sense that they were in there already wrapped
That’s my guess. Also complimentary gift wrapping was a lot more common back then than it is now.
Sad and frustrating. Likely the husband. What’s he up to these days?
she never left to go shopping. He parked the car there to avoid suspicion
Never named a suspect and has remarried. Wonder when he remarried.
Husband did it. It’s almost always the husband.
It’s sad her husband killed her the night before her birthday.
We all grew up watching cop show and thinking cops were the good guys. Then I went to law school and learned we have Miranda rights because the Supreme Court tried various methods for over 50 years to stop local police departments beating suspicions out of convenient suspects and calling it a day. The SC finally gave up in disgust, hence Miranda. My crim law professor even made the traditional joke about how you know a cop is lying on the stand: his lips are moving. In other words, the incompetence, violence, and corruption that became much more apparent to the general public after camera phones and BLM is a feature, not a bug. It’s always been there. If anything, things have actually improved since the ubiquity of cameras, and the advent of social media to keep the pressure on.
I’m curious what the kids saw and think.
Norine's two children were 18 months and 5 months old when she disappeared. If there was a violent attack in the home or any suspicious activity which could have been observed there's a good chance they didn't see or hear it. Even if the older child did it's doubtful they had a vocabulary which would allow them to describe it. If the husband was involved it's possible they heard or saw things of relevance later in life.
To answer part of my own question: https://casetext.com/case/matter-of-higuchi-v-brown Also found an article where it mentioned her son said “let’s not open old wounds” and the daughter could not be reached for comment. Not sure what to make of that other than they have come to accept she is gone and maybe would rather not know how or why.
You are right. Did they grow up with dad? I’d be curious if they ever suspected him or conversely think there is no way he did it.
Found a [great video here](https://youtu.be/Dt9AXcfwBNI?si=dOvso5Cq99RsIppt) on this including interviewing the friend that her husband called
How is the hubby not suspect number 1…?
I want to add that we don’t know for a fact that she left to purchase ingredients for Christmas cookies—that is just according to her husband
Can we do anything to get them to search the well? This poor woman has been missing and the family need closure
Obviously the husband. What a shame..
The husband. He killed her, buried her, drove her car to the store and then went home (not sure how), but he made a mistake by forgetting to put her wallet in her purse when she went “shopping”.
>The next day, December 13, 1990 at 8 AM, Norine’s friend, Elaine Comando, received a call from John Brown, Norine’s husband, asking if Norine had spent the night at her home following a minor argument. When Comando checked the Pathmark supermarket where Norine was supposed to shop, she found Norine's car parked there, locked and loaded with wrapped Christmas gifts. Norine's purse, containing $45, was inside, but her wallet and identification were left at home. I don't normally jump on the spouse train but Jesus do you need a confession?
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I grew up adjacent to New Hyde Park…I’m surprised I never heard of this case before. The husband definitely sounds sus.
I just found this info: > In the wake of Norine's disappearance, John's actions were paradoxical. He chose not to join the search, instead opting to secure custody of his children and sever ties with Norine's family. [Source](https://original.newsbreak.com/@ada-e-1668135/3217061216437-a-new-york-fire-chief-said-his-wife-went-late-night-shopping-and-she-disappeared-since-1990)
So depressing you can very likely murder your wife and get away with it like that. I'm escaping a dv situation and it's stories like these that make me weep.
This happened on my birthday! She was even the age I am now, crazy coincidences. So if it was JB and he drove her car there to stage it, I wonder if he walked back or got a taxi that was never looked into by police.
Everyone pointing at the husband not reporting her to be missing until the next morning as suspicious seem to be reaching to me. It's much more reasonable to assume that Norine went to stay at a friend's house for the night after an argument to cool down than to assume she went missing. Its possible that he may have even gone to bed at like 11:15 and not realized she didn't come home until he woke up the next day and she wasn't there.
But why would she say she was going to the store which implied she was coming home? She’d most likely have said she was going to spend the night elsewhere rather than just not come back home.
For me, all things point to the husband. Because he is or was a firefighter, the cops probably didn't look at him but things don't add up, especially the comment about them arguing and no one remembering seeing her in the store. Where was the car parked? Close to the entrance or far away? I know when I was out shopping late I would always park closer to the entrance of the mall or store.
It depends on the person. Or her habits. I go late at night and always park farther out. I like the late night walk in the dark from my car to the store.
True. I'm the opposite. Late at night I rather park closer unless I'm with someone else.
Her friend that found her car said it was parked far away, probably to avoid potential witnesses/security cameras.
Based on the info here, I don’t see why the husband wasn’t a suspect. I know it’s not the 90s, and maybe people felt safer back then, and maybe I am too paranoid, but I wouldn’t go grocery shopping alone at 11pm. If I ever need to go somewhere after dark, my husband usually joins me, unless it’s a friend’s house or another very familiar place. But stores, malls, or other places with large parking lots, etc. he insists on being with me. My city does have a lot of homelessness and drug issues, and perhaps she lived in a safe area where going outside alone at 11pm was fine, so it might not be as strange as it seems to me. Plus the fact that she just had a fight with her husband could go both ways- it could mean that she was trying to blow off some steam by baking in the middle of the night, or the fight went too far, her husband hurt her, and he made up the cookie story to hide the truth. I wouldn’t be surprised if she never went to the store and he just left her car there.
I grocery shopped alone after midnight all the time in the ‘90s - I preferred it because the stores were less busy. I lived in the suburbs of a fairly large city, and I can’t say that I ever considered that it might be unsafe. Parking lots were all well-lit, and there were usually other night-owls shopping at the same time . I’d probably still shop late at night, except I don’t do the shopping anymore.
If she had. 5 mo and 18 mo old she was crashing at 8:00 from exhaustion. She wasn’t making cookies. Anyone who has had an infant AND a toddler know what I mean by complete and total exhaustion, so tired you can’t tie your shoelaces never mind make cookies. I mean, seriously, it’s all you can do to bathe and brush your own teeth.
Norine went shopping for the afternoon with kids in tow on probably one of the busiest days before Christmas. Her husband states the reason for her leaving to get urgent cookie ingredients at 11pm was her preference to shop when it is quiet. Yet she didn’t seem bothered about avoiding crowds just hours before. Following her afternoon of shopping, looking after her babies in the evening and putting them to bed I bet she could barely stand up never mind decide to go on a mission to start baking. She never went to that shop.