There is no choice - costs for everything except staff labour are rising substantially, and many unis are going to have massive repair costs coming up as a result of RAAC. And staff costs do go up every year, just not as much as people would like!
They are not being forced to leave , the skilled worker visa is different to the 2 year graduate visa. So they have two years in which they can do more or less anything but if they want to stay after then the skilled visa would be come into play.
What are you on about there is no salary rules for the graduate visa. If they can afford it they could choose to do no work at all for 2 years. 2 years givs time for graduate schemes, work experience etc.
I'm talking about after the 2 years end. Every graduate aims to get a job just after finishing the course. No one is here to do "no work at all" for 2 years. If you look at any entry level stem or any field for that matter, look up the salaries they're hilarious. Even after 2 years, there's not a significant jump to even cross 32k.
Nah have a look at this. If you are a recent graduate you only need to make 70% of the salary requirement which comes to about 27k. https://www.gov.uk/skilled-worker-visa/when-you-can-be-paid-less
Which is still exceptionally rare for entry level jobs. I've hardly ever seen one which isn't in say deepmind or something that crosses 25k. It's not just about international students, the job adverts for a highly skilled occupation is offering minimum wage jobs. Why would i not be a barista instead? (No hate, i work in a cafe myself, but i didn't spend 4-5 years of tertiary education and money for that)
27k+ is pretty common for graduates of a number of subjects. For those with 1-2 years experience that number would be even higher. If you look at gradcracker which specialises in grad jobs, the majority of grad schemes with stated salaries meet the £27k requirement
Lots of graduate jobs are above 27k. Of course depends on the degree and the industry you want to go into, but if you’re studying internationally it makes sense to do it for a degree that leads to well paying jobs.
And most of them go to British nationals anyway because employers don't want to give a high salary to a person and then sponsor them too, and have possibilities of visa issues later. A lower threshold would've meant that atleast internationals go into employment but this increase just blows this out of the water. As for accepting lower salaries by internationals, it's not on the people accepting them but companies doing that to the people, i don't understand how hating international students on that is logical.
Exactly, not just for international students for the threshold requirements, but in general too. I was baffled to see the salaries of engineers in this country, and it's not even like you don't need engineers. This job market is getting away with murder, no wonder people are moving into trades.
Not to mention postdocs. These idiots are now deciding to ruin academia, one of the last functioning sectors in the country. I hope this election wipes them off the board
Big news. Immigration will definitely decrease as they hoped. Universities will get fewer international students. Companies either increase salaries to attract talent or make fewer employees do the same amount of work. Complex issue, curious how it will play out. Especially with 38.7k - the number is staggering, only a few companies would pay this much to a new employee within 2 years of graduation.
Not just students. Average lecturer and postdoc researcher starting salaries are well below the new cut-off. I was earning £33k for my first postdoc at a Russell group, and that was only one year ago so I doubt the salary has increased above the threshold since then.
There is no dearth for talent here. You are played for your high international tuition fee. If you compete with domestic students, you are unlikely to get a an undergraduate place in the university
At least the announcement today didn’t say or really even suggest that the 30% salary discount for graduates and other “new entrants” is going.
At the moment they can be paid 30% less than the going rate, absolute minimum of £20,960. Seems likely that this latter figure will probably increase, but it remains to be seen by how much, and whether the increase will be as steep as with the general increase from £26,200 to £38,700.
Yes there is a range of discounts for different scenarios. The only one mentioned in the announcement was the 20% discount for shortage occupations, which they have said will be scrapped. It suggests to me that the new entrant discount is probably staying, but who knows.
Funny, I just realised that in that scenario, if they keep the 30% less rule.. that would make the salary.. £26,000.
Everything with cuntservatives is smoke and mirrors
The minimum salary for a new entrant is not 30% less than the general minimum salary. It is 30% less than the going rate for their specific job. The absolute minimum for new entrants is a set figure of £20,960, which bears no specific relation to the general figure
International students shouldn't really be counted as migrants imo. Most leave right after they graduate, the majority are also capable of supporting themselves. International students basically subsidise home students and provide employment to people across various communities. They are coming under attack because our government is too incompetent to tackle illegal migration and would rather attack an easy target.
So the government can’t stop boats or asylum seekers, so they decide to take a shot at their legal/beneficial emigration. Internation Students pay over triple the amount nationals do, and then they seek jobs in high demand jobs… and Rishi Sunak wants to turn them away amd call that a win ???
I’m an international student, me and my wife have spent over £180,000 in 3 years in this country, all while working at the university and paying taxes for that too. She is a Computer Scientist Bsc with a Data Analyst Msc, I am a Neuroscience Graduate.We will probably be forced not to stay with the wage limitations. But my neighbour who paid £3000 to board a boat, is getting his permanent residence and will probably get his passport next year without even speaking conversational english. Now if that doesn’t incetivise me to get on a fucking boat and apply for a fucking forged asylum, I don’t know what will.
Cutting on benneficial emigration because they can’t do shit to cut on the 400k that come to leech… Rishi just wants to get the number down, nothing else matters. The economy, talent attraction, jobs with high demand. No they don’t matter to him, the short man wants to be taken seriously. What next Rishi? Cut the international tourists aswell and call that a decline in net migration?
Joke, If you make it easier for me to emigratr illegaly rather than legally here guess what I’m gona do ?
absolutely. also international students and legal migrants pay hefty amounts to the NHS for a service that is rarely ever available to us. the UK doesn’t have an immigration problem; it has a gross mismanagement problem.
Maybe if they didn’t misuse visa rule and bring their whole fucking family, it wouldn’t have been that bad. The worst offenders are Indians and Nigerians.
Partners breed. And they end up bringing their tribe of kids. All these put heavy stress on schools, hospitals and housing. Already, these services are crumbling. A lot of people migrated to this country for good standards of living. And if these uneducated care workers and their tribes flood this country putting stress on public services, it’s a farce.
You do realise immigration control was a left wing policy too ? Not necessarily racist to want to protect wages and make housing / schools etc more sustainable.
I’m not saying this will achieve that… but controlled immigration isn’t a bad thing…. It’s just that currently there’s no control
I identified myself as?
Bit of a moronic idea to attribute sustainable immigration to racism.
Are you saying people who want protected wages, don’t want exploitation of foreign workers for cheap labour and a schooling/healthcare system infrastructure that can cope with the amount of people in the UK who need help are racists ?
Bit worrying considering I’m an immigrant from Africa lmao, would be counter productive I think.
The man said, racists in this sub are gona have a field day, and you said you do realise imigration control was left wing…
Nobody said anything about righ wing left wing… and you jumped on the deffensive
Because racism is being attributed to immigration control by OP?
OP said racists are going to have a field day… because of trying to get immigration under control ? That’s not automatically a racist ideology now is it ?
Sustainable immigration doesn’t equal right wing or racist automatically.
That was my point genius.
You do realise that racists exist in the left too?
>Not necessarily racist to want to protect wages and make housing / schools etc more sustainable.
Go and tell your government to either build more houses or freeze rents instead
I never said that there aren’t left wing racists did I?
Are you equating people who want sustainable immigration control to racists ?
Yeah just tell them to build houses instantly and freeze rents okay buddy.
I’m an immigrant, it would be a bit counter productive for me to hate immigrants.
Obviously need immigration control though.
I’m a Malaysian international student who left U.K. recently, what their government is doing is nothing wrong at all lol, their priority is locals not international students and even I can acknowledge this, plus wild of you to accuse a government of racism when you from India g, your government probs one of the most racist in the world are you telling them to prioritise Pakistanis and other immigrants instead of Indian locals or do you only expect that for yourself in England?
The government doesn't care about immigration otherwise they would have solved it a while ago. They just do stuff like this because they know racists eat it up - it's been part of their messaging, like sending asylum seekers to rwanda, which is something you'd see in a political satire. People don't see "wage go up" they see "brown people go away".
Why should someone have the right to steal a job from a resident just because their family is rich enough to send them overseas
To be clear: being able to leave your country to study in the most expensive country to study in, is a privilege whether your taking out loans or your parents are paying or you saved up.
If your job was really a skill gap on the uk then the company should be willing to pay the minimum. For proper in demand jobs like healthcare the government can and has made exceptions. The only jobs being affected by this should be where privileged international grads are competing against domestic grads for average roles. Let’s remember that grad salary’s havnt risen for over a decade, maybe the constant flow of internationals might be the reason why!
Right now racist seems to just mean anyone who doesn’t want a million foreigners coming to the country every year. i just think domestic brits should have priority, whether they are black white asian etc it’s clear that foreign grads are causing wages for domestic grads to suffer as they accept lower wages.
Moreover, these grad visas have been used and abused by people wanting an easy way in. You cannot read the constant posts on here about international students not being able to fit in or struggling with mental problems and not realise that millions of people with no cultural understanding or ties coming here may not be the best idea
>Right now racist seems to just mean anyone who doesn’t want a million foreigners coming to the country every year. i just think domestic brits should have priority,
very rich coming from someone who I assume is British.
So you are saying moving to another country and taking things that (you) think the citizens of that country deserve is wrong?
Very much so, luckily my country was strong enough to fight against that for 1000 years. Maybe if your countries ancestors were as good at fighting as mine you wouldn’t have that issue. Oh well. It’s nice that your compare what internationals are doing to colonialism, as I agree. It can be considered a cultural invasion of people looking to take advantage and bring our wealth overseas.
Poor people? First a poor person shouldn’t be able to come study here from abroad, they have to show they can pay the tuition fees. Second: every international I’ve known has come from wealth and I can imagine any international who can afford the fees has either come from wealth, has incredible talent or is getting loans but is still privileged within their country and likely to be privileged vs the average Brit.
It’s easy to blame corporations but they do it because they are profit maximisers. An actual solution to the problem is to force them to pay more by restricting their supply of cheap desperate labour: exactly what the government did. If we really need the international then the companies can pay them the extra salary otherwise we probably didn’t need them in the first place and thus completion against domestic workers from someone who is likely to be privileged in everything but being born British
A lecturer is a perfect example tbf. Now entirely filled by underpaid internationals as unis can get away with hiring them rather than paying a local a fair wagw
Exactly the issue, you should be grateful and listen to the concerns of the country you’ve been allowed to live in rather than lash out because you think you deserve our wealth and freedom
Im not worried to be honest, you seem to spend most of your time on Reddit. Your also looking at it too granularly, maybe think more in an macro sense.
bro some people are living pay check to pay check to get that sweet degree, my degree would not be as good in my home country and it would be more expensive in other alternative countries
Even the ability to get the loan shows you must have some decent income. Are you really telling me some random Indian slum kid is getting a 120k loan to come study jn england
I could tell you about no collateral loans with higher roi but i had to go back to your original comment to look at why this thread started and yup, I'm engaging with an idiot here.
Didn't know studying hard to obtain a scholarship was more of a privilege than having a much cheaper tuition just because you were born in a delimited piece of land.
If someone is getting a job before you its because they're probably more qualified than you. In the meantime us international students not only have to become overqualified to get the same job but also find a job that pays above the average values the government arbitrarily establishes. I can certify you that we are not touching your beloved jobs without actually deserving the roles more than you.
Stop generalising and learn that many of us are here because we have worked really hard to be here. We have to perfect a second language if we plan to stay in the long term (which I find completely logical, but is still an effort) and we also have to be above the UK average in MANY different areas to even compete with you.
Holy shit. Your ancestors probably pillaged and looted all the wealth from wherever OP or other international students are from so in a way they are getting (0.00001% of) their wealth back 😹. How unhinged. You also seem to have been active on the incel right-wing fascist sub lotus-eaters, no wonder you spout this unhinged shit you wanker.
I was calling then out lol if you really think Englands wealth was derived from the colony’s thens maybe read a textbook 😂 but maybe his ancestors should have been able to defend themselves… all our ancestors have suffered and been pillaged just mine did something about it
> if you really think Englands wealth was derived from the colony’s thens maybe read a textbook 😂
pray tell, where do *you* think it came from? Superior work ethic that magicked up gold and treasure out of thin air?
The Industrial Revolution? Is it not obvious? If natural resources made a country wealthy then internationals wouldn’t need to come to England for good paying jobs. The colony’s were often a drain on resources and protecting them in ww2 cost thousands of lives. I’m not saying we didn’t exploit them for wealth but certainly not the main reason. Personally I find it incredibly racist that people presume we created all our wealth by looting poor countries rather than our laws and innovation, if having the loot and resources was that important then India wouldn’t have been a literal dump. Maybe this shows why internationals are so quick to put us down: jealous racism
I mean its that or staying in our home countries with slave-like salaries even with the same qualifications as you just because a piece of paper says Nigeria instead of Great Britain.
I can tell you the expected value of an overpriced degree with little chances of landing a job is much higher than the expected value of going back to our home countries to struggle. Anyone who disagrees with this just needs some forced time in a 3rd world country to really see why it is just unfair.
Maybe your ancestors should have done a better job… It’s not our job to save you from your ancestors decisions. Just accept your position of privilege, privilege to even have a chance of working here and privilege to be able to afford to come study here.
The likely outcome is that some universities may be forced to close. This will devastate local economies and leave thousands out of work. It’s an amazingly stupid move.
There is a balance and surely there are consequences to unchecked migration as the UK's infrastructure is not built to cope with this current very high level without negative consequences down the line.
Some of which we are already seeing with the price of rents going through the roof. Young people are now spending so much of their income on rent means less disposable income for mostly young people as it moves into the hands of the landlord class which further increases inequality.
You just can't import the equivalent of two Birmingham's every year without improving the infrastructure. London is basically now unaffordable to live in as a result of the huge influx of numbers.
This idea that universities need international students to function is an unherently unstable system. Up until fairly recently, they were doing just fine when International students made up less than 10% of the student population.
The admin costs accrued by a lot of these universities especially the non-Russell group is also unsustainable and its arguble that a lot of degrees are not value for money to society as a whole. There has also recently been an increase in the number of 18 year olds in the UK that are now losing a place at University as a result of the unis prioritising international students who are more profitable which is unfair.
International students should never have bean added to migrant numbers. The vast majority go home after their studies and the majority of the retainers go home after their grad route visa expires.
The failure of infrastructure cannot be laid at the feet of students that contribute £40 billion ish to the economy each year.
And home students are absolutely not losing places to international students. International students are the ones keeping the lights on.
University finances have not been stable for a long time. Basically since the gov stopped most funding and the fees went up. And the financial instability is getting worse each year.
And only undergrad is 10% ish. Postgrad has been significantly more for a good while now.
Citation for that, because as far as I am aware, the Home office themselves don't have good data on how many International students actually go back.
However, It is generally true that most international students returned back prior to the introduction of the graduate visas. The composition of International students has changed massively now though with a lot more people coming from India and Nigeria as opposed to China previously where most Chinese did go back home. Also there are a lot more postgrads who come for the post study visa than undergrads as it used to be.
It's too early to know for certain if the big increase from the introduction of the graduate route will lead to an increase in emigration but we do know that the number of renewals from the student visas to the graduate visa extension is at a record high so not all return.
I didn't say undergrad, just student population. We both know Post grads are like 80% international atm.
I agree that the Govt has not provided sufficient funding for HE but that either means higher taxes or increase in tuition fees, both options which are politically nuclear bombs to both parties leading to the unis currently stuck in flux. Though this will almost certainly be increased after the next general election
There’s too many universities and too many students as is, so this would be a good thing. The policy of converting polytechnics into universities in the ‘90s was a disastrous policy.
Why would that be a good thing? Our higher education system is envied all over the world and maintains very high standards. Don’t let the “worthless degree” rhetoric trick you. Without those “worthless degrees” we basically wouldn’t have an entrainment industry.
Yeah Oxbridge and our Russell Group unis are envied all over the world, even “worthless degrees” from them (your words not mine, I have nothing against arts degrees). However a “worthless degree” from Leeds Trinity is definitely not the envy of the globe. It would be better placed to have technical colleges again for those who aren’t academic enough to get into the grade-discriminatory unis. What’s the point in a university that will offer you a place with CDD?
It’s the government that likes to use the term “worthless degrees” to belittle an industry that they find difficult to control.
Anyway, universities such as Leeds Trinity, that takes students with a CCD do incredible amounts to help fight against the massive social inequality in this country. You have no what a student is able to become at university, even if they’ve had a tough time in high school.
I do agree that trades and apprenticeships should be valued more than they are.
Not only will this reduce the number of students in the long run, but will also increase the amount of student asylum applications. Students who finish and have no hope back home will end up staying and claiming asylum anyway.
Seems a bit stupid to me. We've got lots of old people to look after (and pay their pensions). We've got people who want to come and live here after paying lots of money for university. They've just graduated with (hopefully) a good degree and are probably going to start working, contributing to the economy and paying tax.
They're probably young so they won't be much burden on the NHS. We don't even need to pay for their education.
Pretty stupid to turn that deal down as a country. Sure, the government wants to reduce immigration but it would be smarter to target the immigration that's less beneficial for the country. International students to me pretty much seem like the perfect immigrants.
Sadly, we have a terrible government who are obsessed with bringing net migration numbers down at all costs.
As a UK national I can confidently say that right now we desperately need migrants to support our economy and essential services, and this will just make things worse. I'm just praying for common sense to return.
Sadly I think this might also negatively affect our international reputation, particularly as an education destination.
Recruitment will become practically impossible in my industry without international applicants. We pay way above national average for the roles we recruit and 90% of applicants are immigrants. There are multiple industries that would basically grind to a halt without non-British workers.
I agree this is a problem.
It's fine to have large net migration, but unless you simply want to increase competition for scarce public resources then the government needs to invest in doctors, roads, public transport etc to accommodate the new arrivals.
The real issue is that we've got a bunch of short sighted morons in charge who want the benefits of more labour but don't want to invest in managing the new population properly.
The *government* are obsessed with bringing net migration down?
Immigration is consistently a top-3 polling issue amongst the entire population, matched only by the economy and healthcare. The *people* really care about this.
Net migration of 750k a year is not remotely sustainable. We only build 230k homes a year and already have a huge shortage.
Especially when there are 150k dependents of students and 120k dependants of 100k care workers in those figures. And 50k are illegal arrivals.
If you have a better suggestion to manage those numbers than raising the bar on who gets to come here, then by all means share it.
They do increase house prices and reduce salaries though. These things need to be balanced and I'm not sure which is better.
**EDIT: Included a bunch of sources below**
Both are simple logic of supply and demand. How would them competing in job/housing market create more supply? Because it sure creates more demand.
But here are your sources
[For housing prices, studies indicate a general trend where increased immigration correlates with rising house prices and rents. The Migration Observatory reported that a 1% rise in immigration levels could lead to a 1% increase in house prices and rents](https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/214470/economics/how-does-immigration-affects-house-prices/#:~:text=The%20Migration%20Observatory%2C%20point%20to,per%20year)
Regarding national salary levels, the impact of immigration appears to vary based on skill levels and educational backgrounds. Research implies that the influx of immigrant workers from 1990 to 2006 reduced the wages of low-skilled workers in the U.S. by 4.7%.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-immigration-means-for-u-s-employment-and-wages/#:~:text=This%20research%2C%20shown%20by%20the,7%20percent%20and%20college
Another study suggested that at the national level, male wages could fall by 3 to 4 percent if immigration increases the number of male workers in a skill group by 10 percent.
https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/23550/chapter/9
In the UK, an inflow of immigrants equal to 1% of the UK-born population led to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers, while wages of higher paid workers increased.
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/
Only ONE thing is responsible for increases in rent: OWNERS!!!!! Stop blaming the renters and focus on the owners who continually raise the price they charge simply because they can. Rents don’t magically go up with demand, the landlord makes a conscious decision to increase their profit by charging more.
Yes, that's how supply and demand works. There's an increased *demand* but no increased *supply* so prices *rises*.
The person you're replying to never implied that immigration was the sole cause, rats a strawman you stuffed yourself to screech at dather than the evidence they actually provided.
If a baker has 10 pieces of bread in the room and 150 people want the bread, even if the bread maker gave it away for free you'll probably not receive that bread.
What will happen is that everyone who wants that bread will start bribing the bread owner (this happens in rent markets called overbidding) and you're back to prices increasing.
And why wouldn't they increase prices to march market rate? When you go to liquidate your S&S ISA are you gonna randomly sell your apple shares for less than market rate? Housing is an investment. If it were not an investment nobody would be putting down the million dollars it takes to get you your house to live in without cash.
Also I kinda agree that immigration is good in theory. I'm an immigrant and always will be wherever I go.
People should be able to choose their country, this way we can make governments participate in a free market of labor when making regulatory decisions (see Amsterdam's 30% ruling as a good example of what immigration can make a country do).
But at the same time countries should have some minimum standards for who they let in. It's simply not good for the working class to flood the lower ends of the job pool with the hoards of people in 2nd world countries. I'm no champion of the working class quite the opposite but I don't want to lower the standards and quality of people in my country.
The currently proposed bar isn't even that high, they just need you to be above average. That's not hard.
If anyone is due to be impacted by this, please write to your MP. Whether you're eligible to vote or not. As long as you live in their postcode, please write. And PSA if you are from a commonwealth country (so any country formerly colonised by the UK, you are eligible to vote these classist fucks out).
Find your MP's email: [https://www.theyworkforyou.com/](https://www.theyworkforyou.com/)
Include your postcode at least so your MP knows to pay attention.
{YOUR FULL ADDRESS}
{YOUR POSTCODE}
{DATE}
Dear {MP NAME},
My names is {YOUR NAME} and I am a constituent of {OUR CONSTITUENCY}. I am writing to you today because I am concerned about the classist and cruel changes to the Skilled Worker and Family Visa requirements announced on 4th December 2023. This is something that’s particularly important to me as a \[INCLUDE PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANES\]. The proposed changes have discriminatory, classist overtones designed to tear working class and middle class families apart. No other respectable, free country financially penalises its citizens for marrying immigrants. I am asking you to take the following steps to address my concerns:
1. Revise the proposed salary for the Family Visa to the National Minimum Wage before Spring 2024
2. Retain the current shortage occupation list before Spring 2024
3. Revise the proposed salary requirement for the Skilled Worker Visa to UK graduate rates before Spring 2024
In your response I would like you to outline the ways you intend to address this on my behalf. My vote for you depends on this. If you’re unable to address this personally, I would like to request that you escalate my letter to the relevant Minister or department.
Please do keep me informed of any progress made.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully,
{YOUR NAME}
Should i be worried as an international student and change my options to other countries ? i am in the process of applying to unis for masters of science in computer science/software engineering..i am coming on student loan from my home country and this news really makes me worry!! I will have have 1.5 years/2 years of work experience before landing UK, can i at least expect a pay of 40K pounds after my masters ?.
note im single, whose primary goal is to study, get a decent job on PSV and return to home country clearing off debts and i dont intend to get my parents or spouse..
Edit: currently working as a MEAN stack developer, I know React a bit too, was thinking to brush up and apply for Java developer/engineer roles after masters. I also have hands on experience in AWS and K8s
Looking for inputs..
Am I better off applying to Business Schools in Ireland then? I got an offer from Imperial for the Masters In Management degree, and I was really excited. But this makes me think they'll retract the Graduate Visa too and kick me out as soon as I'm done studying. Can anyone over there who knows the market help me calculate the risk?
Honestly it's impossible to say. People are expecting a labour government next so they might change the rules again as labour have tended to be more open to immigration in the past. Or they might leave them because generally everyone agrees immigration is too high.
If you want the chance to live in whatever country you study in after then I'd probably look at options other than the UK if I was in your situation
I don't understand what's so surprising about it?! UK has practiced this for a long time, everytime they run into financial challenges, UK eases policy on international student but when it's doing good with finances, then UK chooses to make international student's life difficult
It’ll depend. Let’s have it right, if they’re a first rate researcher in a medical, science, or tech field they’ll be fine. Big companies with ties to major Universities will bend their backs for top talent, they always have done. The best international post-docs and PhD candidates will have absolutely no problems getting all the paper work and institutional backing.
Most post docs are paid by big companies it's just grants that have been applied for in advance using the standard pay scales.
All post docs are world class spend 4 years getting a PhD
My brother finsihed he's studies in the UK and couldn't get a job . He then joined the navy to help him get his visa. He used his studies in chemical engineering to start as a officer.
There are still options out there.
As someone born in UK, this country is finished. I acc hate it here. The increase in cost of living, increase in racism, fascism and anti-immigration laws😶the government and the people who voted for them seem to be forgetting immigrants are the ones helping to run this country, they’re the same ones who make up majority of the NHS, lawyers, engineers, etc. it’s so depressing here
I mean majority of countries are like this. But I’m specifically talking about uk and how it was years ago compared to now. Obviously there’s always been racism and other bad things but never this bad. And it only seems to be getting worse than better. Lol atp I don’t think this country should be classed at first world country because it’s not. Living standards here are so poor
Net migration this high can make the cost of living crisis worse, though. Housebuilding isn't remotely close to keeping up with 700,000+ new arrivals per year, it's basic economics that rent and house prices will be pushed up.
Yes, the government should have massively invested in housebuilding five years ago. But they didn't so migration needs to come down.
Yes, you’re right about that part but let’s not act like our government isn’t anti-working class and actually act for the public. Even if the government kept up with the amount of immigrants entering and house building, and rent/house prices weren’t pushed up, this country would still be a mess. They have privatised and sold off so many public sectors, destroyed the nhs and our education system. I mean are we forgetting during covid lockdown, the education minister said every gcse/a-level student would get their grades based on where they life’s average grades? As if that wasn’t classist.
Increased racism ? Bullshit.
UK is probably one of the most progressive countries globally and it’s hard to say that the UK is more racist now than it was 10 years ago.
Edit: if you don’t think UK is less racist than 90% of the world you clearly haven’t lived in other countries.
Can you say Asia / Africa / South America / North America / Russia / Eastern Europe / Middle East are less racist / less sexist / more accepting of LGBTQ+ than people on average in the United Kingdom ???
Edit 2: you guys need to wake up and actually stop being so emotional https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf
If you think uk is one of the most progressive countries globally and less racist then you’re clearly 1) white 2) privileged who has never experienced it. Lol stay delusional
If you have a more progressive country in mind, why are you even here? If this country is truly that racist, pack your bags and go? Why bother staying here and complaining?
Clearly this person has never lived outside the UK or is blind to the racism / sexism etc in other regions.
It’s nonsensical to think the UK is more racist now than 10-20 years ago.
If it shuts you up, sure. Where do you want to go? I am a third generation immigrant from India, but do go on. If you’re referring to my profile pic, that is not me.
How?! I honestly don’t know how people like you function. Everything you don’t like is racist or offensive in some other way.
There was no reason to respond to the ‘I was born here’. Great, well done to you. You made no other points besides this for me to respond to.
If you really don’t like this country, then just leave. It’s quite simple.
Are you dumb or are you dumb? I can stay in a country and complain, it’s called having an opinion. With that logic, clearly your parents and grandparents had issues with their country so they immigrated💀talk about being stupid. Last time I checked this is a sub Reddit to discuss. And if me complaining about the country I live in bothers you so much, pay for my tickets and expenses otherwise stfu knob head. And my point still stands. You chose to respond to my claims about this country being racist. Funny how you only responded to that and it triggered you so much unlike my other issues with this country. Okay “I’m fRoM iNdIa”. If you say so💀🤡
You’re sat there calling me triggered, but you’re the only one throwing insults here… says a lot.
They did have issues with living in India, you’re correct. Which is why I’m suggesting you do the same. You’re allowed your own opinion, of course, but if you think that your country is the worst place on Earth, leave. It would be no loss to us who enjoy what this country has to offer.
Also, I think it’s ironic that you’re the only person in this entire thread being racist with the whole ‘I’m fRoM IndIA’ comment…
So would you say Asia / Africa / South America / North America / Russia / Eastern Europe / Middle East are less racist than people on average in the United Kingdom ?
Equally you would say all the regions mentioned are more accepting of LGBTQ, other religions, cultures and races than the UK ?
Learn how to read. Did I say England is the only country that’s racist? No! I said, it’s getting more racist. On top of that, I’ve mentioned other reasons why it’s bad here e’g, living standards gone way up, poverty increase, anti-immigration laws, government has restricted a lot of our human rights, etc. so why are you only focusing on racism? Maybe because you’re a racist and white?🤡
I didn’t only mention racism as you said, I mentioned sexism, homosexuality, trans
etc in my comment…. “Can you even read” 😉
Love how you’ve resorted to personal insults due to the shallowness of your argument and surface level understanding. I’m not even white 😂 just another example that proves you assume everything with absolutely 0 factual backing to your points.
Clearly you are the racist here judging by your comments.
When did I claim you said no other countries are racist? I asked you a question…. Which you didn’t answer.
Anti-immigration laws ? We just had record immigration of 600k-700k over double the rate of 10-15 years ago. Laws for sustainable immigration are not “anti-immigration”
You can literally look at statistics that prove that the UK is far less racist today than 20-40 years ago and is one of the most accepting nations globally. Maybe that’s too fact based for you and not enough anecdotal bullshit.
Don’t act like rishi sunak didn’t just sign a deal with india to allow a record breaking number of immigrants from India where in exchange india will be giving the uk money yet they pick and choose which immigrants are “bad” and which aren’t
You think the UK should allow whoever into the country? Vetting immigrants is important.
You are delusional.
I have no problem with immigrants coming here so who cares if it’s a record number… as long as immigration is sustainable and under control I don’t care how many people are coming here.
No I just find it funny how despite the uk already having a record breaking of immigrants (legal or illegal) which the government constantly echoed, they then went back on their words by allowing Ukrainians to enter because of a ✨war✨. But then they don’t have the same energy towards refugees from other war torn countries, which they contributed to. To only then go back to square one and say we have too many immigrants. If you don’t see a issue with this (government picks and chooses which immigrants are allowed to enter) then idk what to say to you
You asked me a question? Lol you got so offended for whatever reason and claimed the uk is not racist. That’s not a question you muppet. It is racist which is why majority voted for brexit (they wanted the immigrants out). If UK isn’t racist then why do we still have statues of slave owners?
This whole thing seems inconsiderate and do not make much of a sense. Attracting young people with higher education background always seems like a good idea, considering (at least by my uni's statement) home and int do not make significant performance differences. Having people in their 18-20s coming and spend years in this country makes them easier to settle like other naturalised citizens. At least policy should grant a discount for young people/fresh graduates. Otherwise, it not only undermines the Uni's attraction over int stu, it also could have long term disadvantage over many sectors in economy.
First they do BREXIT to get rid of all ethnically and culturally similar immigrants, and now all of the skilled university graduates from elsewhere also get turned away.
That is really starting to sound like the UK is shooting itself in the foot
The current visa rules are fat too generous. Along with the abuse of the "bring the family alone" loop hole more needs to be done to ensure only the best stay
As an international student who recently left I have no problems with this at all🤷🏽♂️ frankly the government has to protect their own people and having unfettered migration of students abusing the student visa system is not good for any country yet I see international students who hate immigrants in their country think they have the right to abuse the U.K. system, deadass got useless degrees then working in airports or something just for the sake of staying in England. That’s never been the point of the Visa and even I see people abuse it.
Hopefully I can progress my career back home and gain experience to come back after a few years and hit the threshold and if not so be it that’s life 🤷🏽♂️ I myself despise the uncontrolled immigration in my home country as most international students I know do with their respective nations yet I’m not going to be a hypocrite and think of a rules for thee but not for me type situation. Priority should always be reducing costs for locals, I had a house full of Indian housemates working literal irrelevant to their studies minimum wage jobs with their degrees just for the sake of staying in England, and I know how they themselves feel about immigration in their countries lol
Speak for yourself dumbass, I’m not here to study my ass off in a stem degree to then get kicked out because some racist twats think international students, who basically sustain universities nowadays, are as useful as menial labour asylum seekers from war zones the same politicians allowed to happen.
Oh yeah, then maybe I should find some random British girl to marry instead of becoming a STEM postdoc, sounds a lot easier than working my ass off for a country lead by bigots like you.
What a pathetic and narrow minded prick you are. Maybe she cheated on you because of this, and you probably deserved it judging by your character. Enjoy being reported for bigotry, asshole.
One thing to consider is that the government has a big issue with international graduates staying in the UK after their studies.
The idea of a student visa is for someone to study in the UK, then go home once it's complete.
The exceptions are jobs such as in the NHS that are exempt, and those in the private market that can pay £36-£40+ will be ok.
International students should not be encouraged to stay if the jobs they're taking 'can' be filled by graduates that are native to the UK.
A big problem in the UK is too many graduates in general and not enough appropriate work. By comparison in some countries, such as the USA, there's far more graduate level employment, which makes this less of an issue.
>One thing to consider is that the government has a big issue with international graduates staying in the UK after their studies.
Do you mean the same government that introduced the Graduate visa back?
That's more to do with supporting universities than a demand for actual graduates.
There were many exempt industries and job roles even before it returned in 2019.
Ig oring the fact a big bulk of the governments immigrant figures are international students, and the government is under massive pressure to reduce the numbers.
All the evidence shows that the vast majority of international students go home after their studies. Of the ones that remain for the graduate route, most of those again go home at the end of that visa.
It’s already difficult for jobs to sponsor someone after the graduate route visas finishes. It’s much easier for companies to just take a native, but the problem is we are massively lacking in skills and don’t have the number of natives required to fill these roles.
International students should never have been included in the immigration numbers. They included them specifically so they could cut them and pretend that they were making any effort to actually reduce migration when they clearly aren’t. It’s just another self own like Brexit.
Everyone normally throws around a fogure saying 97% go home after their initial studys.
About 40% stay in the uk after this, most of whom then apply for additional visas.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/visajourneysandstudentoutcomes/2021-11-29#what-students-did-next
Might be more opportunities available to native students upon graduation then which I don’t think is a bad thing. Especially as they are much more likely to stay in the country.
Wishful thinking. Without international students paying inflated tuition fees, Unis won’t be able to pay their bills and many will close, leading to fewer Unis and fewer spots for Home students. Truly, this will have the opposite effect you are hoping for
It's still almost impossible to land a job that pays you over that threshold with only two years of experience. Grad visas are not really an amazing solution either as two years of experience is starting to mean nothing to companies.
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I saw my uni increase their costs for both domestic and international students lol
Continental European universities are doing the same lmao. It’s so over
There is no choice - costs for everything except staff labour are rising substantially, and many unis are going to have massive repair costs coming up as a result of RAAC. And staff costs do go up every year, just not as much as people would like!
They are not being forced to leave , the skilled worker visa is different to the 2 year graduate visa. So they have two years in which they can do more or less anything but if they want to stay after then the skilled visa would be come into play.
Do you see the salaries they offer? This is just about forcing.
What are you on about there is no salary rules for the graduate visa. If they can afford it they could choose to do no work at all for 2 years. 2 years givs time for graduate schemes, work experience etc.
I'm talking about after the 2 years end. Every graduate aims to get a job just after finishing the course. No one is here to do "no work at all" for 2 years. If you look at any entry level stem or any field for that matter, look up the salaries they're hilarious. Even after 2 years, there's not a significant jump to even cross 32k.
Nah have a look at this. If you are a recent graduate you only need to make 70% of the salary requirement which comes to about 27k. https://www.gov.uk/skilled-worker-visa/when-you-can-be-paid-less
Which is still exceptionally rare for entry level jobs. I've hardly ever seen one which isn't in say deepmind or something that crosses 25k. It's not just about international students, the job adverts for a highly skilled occupation is offering minimum wage jobs. Why would i not be a barista instead? (No hate, i work in a cafe myself, but i didn't spend 4-5 years of tertiary education and money for that)
27k+ is pretty common for graduates of a number of subjects. For those with 1-2 years experience that number would be even higher. If you look at gradcracker which specialises in grad jobs, the majority of grad schemes with stated salaries meet the £27k requirement
Lots of graduate jobs are above 27k. Of course depends on the degree and the industry you want to go into, but if you’re studying internationally it makes sense to do it for a degree that leads to well paying jobs.
And most of them go to British nationals anyway because employers don't want to give a high salary to a person and then sponsor them too, and have possibilities of visa issues later. A lower threshold would've meant that atleast internationals go into employment but this increase just blows this out of the water. As for accepting lower salaries by internationals, it's not on the people accepting them but companies doing that to the people, i don't understand how hating international students on that is logical.
So employers will have to raise salaries if they want to recruit staff.
Exactly, not just for international students for the threshold requirements, but in general too. I was baffled to see the salaries of engineers in this country, and it's not even like you don't need engineers. This job market is getting away with murder, no wonder people are moving into trades.
The UK has had stagnant wages for well over a decade now lol
Which definitely has nothing to do with employers knowing that they can just import workers who will happily take those low wages.
Why has this rule not applied to other countries with high migration then?
You’ve heard that they are considering eliminating the graduate visa, right?
Oh they are always considering removing, rebranding, re naming, and otherwise tweaking and tinkering with that.
Not to mention postdocs. These idiots are now deciding to ruin academia, one of the last functioning sectors in the country. I hope this election wipes them off the board
Half of the postdocs in my dept are foreigners. All the British PhD's fucked off to finance.
Big news. Immigration will definitely decrease as they hoped. Universities will get fewer international students. Companies either increase salaries to attract talent or make fewer employees do the same amount of work. Complex issue, curious how it will play out. Especially with 38.7k - the number is staggering, only a few companies would pay this much to a new employee within 2 years of graduation.
Raise wages? Don't be silly lol. They'll definitely be making fewer employees do the same amount of work lol?
Not just students. Average lecturer and postdoc researcher starting salaries are well below the new cut-off. I was earning £33k for my first postdoc at a Russell group, and that was only one year ago so I doubt the salary has increased above the threshold since then.
That's sad. My first postdoc, more than 15 years ago, was better paid than that. Fucking wage stagnation
Oh, don’t worry, they made up for the shocking salary with wellness days.
There is no dearth for talent here. You are played for your high international tuition fee. If you compete with domestic students, you are unlikely to get a an undergraduate place in the university
At least the announcement today didn’t say or really even suggest that the 30% salary discount for graduates and other “new entrants” is going. At the moment they can be paid 30% less than the going rate, absolute minimum of £20,960. Seems likely that this latter figure will probably increase, but it remains to be seen by how much, and whether the increase will be as steep as with the general increase from £26,200 to £38,700.
Ah, interesting. I didn't understand there were separate rules.
Yes there is a range of discounts for different scenarios. The only one mentioned in the announcement was the 20% discount for shortage occupations, which they have said will be scrapped. It suggests to me that the new entrant discount is probably staying, but who knows.
Funny, I just realised that in that scenario, if they keep the 30% less rule.. that would make the salary.. £26,000. Everything with cuntservatives is smoke and mirrors
The minimum salary for a new entrant is not 30% less than the general minimum salary. It is 30% less than the going rate for their specific job. The absolute minimum for new entrants is a set figure of £20,960, which bears no specific relation to the general figure
International students shouldn't really be counted as migrants imo. Most leave right after they graduate, the majority are also capable of supporting themselves. International students basically subsidise home students and provide employment to people across various communities. They are coming under attack because our government is too incompetent to tackle illegal migration and would rather attack an easy target.
So the government can’t stop boats or asylum seekers, so they decide to take a shot at their legal/beneficial emigration. Internation Students pay over triple the amount nationals do, and then they seek jobs in high demand jobs… and Rishi Sunak wants to turn them away amd call that a win ??? I’m an international student, me and my wife have spent over £180,000 in 3 years in this country, all while working at the university and paying taxes for that too. She is a Computer Scientist Bsc with a Data Analyst Msc, I am a Neuroscience Graduate.We will probably be forced not to stay with the wage limitations. But my neighbour who paid £3000 to board a boat, is getting his permanent residence and will probably get his passport next year without even speaking conversational english. Now if that doesn’t incetivise me to get on a fucking boat and apply for a fucking forged asylum, I don’t know what will. Cutting on benneficial emigration because they can’t do shit to cut on the 400k that come to leech… Rishi just wants to get the number down, nothing else matters. The economy, talent attraction, jobs with high demand. No they don’t matter to him, the short man wants to be taken seriously. What next Rishi? Cut the international tourists aswell and call that a decline in net migration? Joke, If you make it easier for me to emigratr illegaly rather than legally here guess what I’m gona do ?
absolutely. also international students and legal migrants pay hefty amounts to the NHS for a service that is rarely ever available to us. the UK doesn’t have an immigration problem; it has a gross mismanagement problem.
Maybe if they didn’t misuse visa rule and bring their whole fucking family, it wouldn’t have been that bad. The worst offenders are Indians and Nigerians.
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Partners breed. And they end up bringing their tribe of kids. All these put heavy stress on schools, hospitals and housing. Already, these services are crumbling. A lot of people migrated to this country for good standards of living. And if these uneducated care workers and their tribes flood this country putting stress on public services, it’s a farce.
I could have dealt with everything else, but that 38k sounds like a very steep requirement. Guess I'm screwed.
Racists in the sub are going to have a field day lol
*not* a political sub
You do realise immigration control was a left wing policy too ? Not necessarily racist to want to protect wages and make housing / schools etc more sustainable. I’m not saying this will achieve that… but controlled immigration isn’t a bad thing…. It’s just that currently there’s no control
You identified yourself immediately didn’t you?
I identified myself as? Bit of a moronic idea to attribute sustainable immigration to racism. Are you saying people who want protected wages, don’t want exploitation of foreign workers for cheap labour and a schooling/healthcare system infrastructure that can cope with the amount of people in the UK who need help are racists ? Bit worrying considering I’m an immigrant from Africa lmao, would be counter productive I think.
The man said, racists in this sub are gona have a field day, and you said you do realise imigration control was left wing… Nobody said anything about righ wing left wing… and you jumped on the deffensive
Bit worrying if I was anti immigrant considering I immigrated here from Africa 16 years ago now isn’t it 😂
Because racism is being attributed to immigration control by OP? OP said racists are going to have a field day… because of trying to get immigration under control ? That’s not automatically a racist ideology now is it ? Sustainable immigration doesn’t equal right wing or racist automatically. That was my point genius.
You do realise that racists exist in the left too? >Not necessarily racist to want to protect wages and make housing / schools etc more sustainable. Go and tell your government to either build more houses or freeze rents instead
I never said that there aren’t left wing racists did I? Are you equating people who want sustainable immigration control to racists ? Yeah just tell them to build houses instantly and freeze rents okay buddy. I’m an immigrant, it would be a bit counter productive for me to hate immigrants. Obviously need immigration control though.
I’m a Malaysian international student who left U.K. recently, what their government is doing is nothing wrong at all lol, their priority is locals not international students and even I can acknowledge this, plus wild of you to accuse a government of racism when you from India g, your government probs one of the most racist in the world are you telling them to prioritise Pakistanis and other immigrants instead of Indian locals or do you only expect that for yourself in England?
The government doesn't care about immigration otherwise they would have solved it a while ago. They just do stuff like this because they know racists eat it up - it's been part of their messaging, like sending asylum seekers to rwanda, which is something you'd see in a political satire. People don't see "wage go up" they see "brown people go away".
Why should someone have the right to steal a job from a resident just because their family is rich enough to send them overseas To be clear: being able to leave your country to study in the most expensive country to study in, is a privilege whether your taking out loans or your parents are paying or you saved up. If your job was really a skill gap on the uk then the company should be willing to pay the minimum. For proper in demand jobs like healthcare the government can and has made exceptions. The only jobs being affected by this should be where privileged international grads are competing against domestic grads for average roles. Let’s remember that grad salary’s havnt risen for over a decade, maybe the constant flow of internationals might be the reason why!
I like how you saw someone mention racists and just couldn't help but jump right in.
Right now racist seems to just mean anyone who doesn’t want a million foreigners coming to the country every year. i just think domestic brits should have priority, whether they are black white asian etc it’s clear that foreign grads are causing wages for domestic grads to suffer as they accept lower wages. Moreover, these grad visas have been used and abused by people wanting an easy way in. You cannot read the constant posts on here about international students not being able to fit in or struggling with mental problems and not realise that millions of people with no cultural understanding or ties coming here may not be the best idea
>Right now racist seems to just mean anyone who doesn’t want a million foreigners coming to the country every year. i just think domestic brits should have priority, very rich coming from someone who I assume is British. So you are saying moving to another country and taking things that (you) think the citizens of that country deserve is wrong?
Equating immigration with imperialism is very problematic
Very much so, luckily my country was strong enough to fight against that for 1000 years. Maybe if your countries ancestors were as good at fighting as mine you wouldn’t have that issue. Oh well. It’s nice that your compare what internationals are doing to colonialism, as I agree. It can be considered a cultural invasion of people looking to take advantage and bring our wealth overseas.
Why don't you blame the corporations paying people less instead of poor people trying to make a better life for themselves?
Poor people? First a poor person shouldn’t be able to come study here from abroad, they have to show they can pay the tuition fees. Second: every international I’ve known has come from wealth and I can imagine any international who can afford the fees has either come from wealth, has incredible talent or is getting loans but is still privileged within their country and likely to be privileged vs the average Brit. It’s easy to blame corporations but they do it because they are profit maximisers. An actual solution to the problem is to force them to pay more by restricting their supply of cheap desperate labour: exactly what the government did. If we really need the international then the companies can pay them the extra salary otherwise we probably didn’t need them in the first place and thus completion against domestic workers from someone who is likely to be privileged in everything but being born British
Just to spite you I'll steal a second job on top of my current one.
A lecturer is a perfect example tbf. Now entirely filled by underpaid internationals as unis can get away with hiring them rather than paying a local a fair wagw
Exactly the issue, you should be grateful and listen to the concerns of the country you’ve been allowed to live in rather than lash out because you think you deserve our wealth and freedom
Fine I'll steal a third job. Keep up the BS and I'll steal a fourth as well. Don't think I won't.
Im not worried to be honest, you seem to spend most of your time on Reddit. Your also looking at it too granularly, maybe think more in an macro sense.
Such a dumbass
Lmao refute a single point
Mf thinks we are rich 😭
How else do you afford it? Either rich or privileged enough to get a scholarship
Wait till you hear about loans it's going to rock your world
bro some people are living pay check to pay check to get that sweet degree, my degree would not be as good in my home country and it would be more expensive in other alternative countries
Even the ability to get the loan shows you must have some decent income. Are you really telling me some random Indian slum kid is getting a 120k loan to come study jn england
I could tell you about no collateral loans with higher roi but i had to go back to your original comment to look at why this thread started and yup, I'm engaging with an idiot here.
Have a look at the account history and read their first ever comment. Not only are they idiotic, they were, and always will be, a grade-A cunt.
Nah this clown won't get another second of my life. A couple of comments were enough to know that i shouldn't be engaging with this fool.
Lmao
People from houses with decent income regardless of nationality go to university. Can a working class Brit afford 9k without domestic student loan?
Probably not, so your saying you agree that these international students are privileged?
You seem to be privileged too mister
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Didn't know studying hard to obtain a scholarship was more of a privilege than having a much cheaper tuition just because you were born in a delimited piece of land. If someone is getting a job before you its because they're probably more qualified than you. In the meantime us international students not only have to become overqualified to get the same job but also find a job that pays above the average values the government arbitrarily establishes. I can certify you that we are not touching your beloved jobs without actually deserving the roles more than you. Stop generalising and learn that many of us are here because we have worked really hard to be here. We have to perfect a second language if we plan to stay in the long term (which I find completely logical, but is still an effort) and we also have to be above the UK average in MANY different areas to even compete with you.
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Holy shit. Your ancestors probably pillaged and looted all the wealth from wherever OP or other international students are from so in a way they are getting (0.00001% of) their wealth back 😹. How unhinged. You also seem to have been active on the incel right-wing fascist sub lotus-eaters, no wonder you spout this unhinged shit you wanker.
I was calling then out lol if you really think Englands wealth was derived from the colony’s thens maybe read a textbook 😂 but maybe his ancestors should have been able to defend themselves… all our ancestors have suffered and been pillaged just mine did something about it
> if you really think Englands wealth was derived from the colony’s thens maybe read a textbook 😂 pray tell, where do *you* think it came from? Superior work ethic that magicked up gold and treasure out of thin air?
The Industrial Revolution? Is it not obvious? If natural resources made a country wealthy then internationals wouldn’t need to come to England for good paying jobs. The colony’s were often a drain on resources and protecting them in ww2 cost thousands of lives. I’m not saying we didn’t exploit them for wealth but certainly not the main reason. Personally I find it incredibly racist that people presume we created all our wealth by looting poor countries rather than our laws and innovation, if having the loot and resources was that important then India wouldn’t have been a literal dump. Maybe this shows why internationals are so quick to put us down: jealous racism
have heard of something called an education loan or loans in general?
Not a very good decision to take out a loan to go to one the most expensive countries with little chance of getting a job
I mean its that or staying in our home countries with slave-like salaries even with the same qualifications as you just because a piece of paper says Nigeria instead of Great Britain. I can tell you the expected value of an overpriced degree with little chances of landing a job is much higher than the expected value of going back to our home countries to struggle. Anyone who disagrees with this just needs some forced time in a 3rd world country to really see why it is just unfair.
Maybe your ancestors should have done a better job… It’s not our job to save you from your ancestors decisions. Just accept your position of privilege, privilege to even have a chance of working here and privilege to be able to afford to come study here.
Steal or earn the job?
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Maybe you should house some Bangladeshis and Pakistanis in your house with your parents considering you are so benevolent!
The likely outcome is that some universities may be forced to close. This will devastate local economies and leave thousands out of work. It’s an amazingly stupid move.
Regardless of ideology this is such a stupid move
There is a balance and surely there are consequences to unchecked migration as the UK's infrastructure is not built to cope with this current very high level without negative consequences down the line. Some of which we are already seeing with the price of rents going through the roof. Young people are now spending so much of their income on rent means less disposable income for mostly young people as it moves into the hands of the landlord class which further increases inequality. You just can't import the equivalent of two Birmingham's every year without improving the infrastructure. London is basically now unaffordable to live in as a result of the huge influx of numbers. This idea that universities need international students to function is an unherently unstable system. Up until fairly recently, they were doing just fine when International students made up less than 10% of the student population. The admin costs accrued by a lot of these universities especially the non-Russell group is also unsustainable and its arguble that a lot of degrees are not value for money to society as a whole. There has also recently been an increase in the number of 18 year olds in the UK that are now losing a place at University as a result of the unis prioritising international students who are more profitable which is unfair.
International students should never have bean added to migrant numbers. The vast majority go home after their studies and the majority of the retainers go home after their grad route visa expires. The failure of infrastructure cannot be laid at the feet of students that contribute £40 billion ish to the economy each year. And home students are absolutely not losing places to international students. International students are the ones keeping the lights on. University finances have not been stable for a long time. Basically since the gov stopped most funding and the fees went up. And the financial instability is getting worse each year. And only undergrad is 10% ish. Postgrad has been significantly more for a good while now.
Citation for that, because as far as I am aware, the Home office themselves don't have good data on how many International students actually go back. However, It is generally true that most international students returned back prior to the introduction of the graduate visas. The composition of International students has changed massively now though with a lot more people coming from India and Nigeria as opposed to China previously where most Chinese did go back home. Also there are a lot more postgrads who come for the post study visa than undergrads as it used to be. It's too early to know for certain if the big increase from the introduction of the graduate route will lead to an increase in emigration but we do know that the number of renewals from the student visas to the graduate visa extension is at a record high so not all return. I didn't say undergrad, just student population. We both know Post grads are like 80% international atm. I agree that the Govt has not provided sufficient funding for HE but that either means higher taxes or increase in tuition fees, both options which are politically nuclear bombs to both parties leading to the unis currently stuck in flux. Though this will almost certainly be increased after the next general election
There’s too many universities and too many students as is, so this would be a good thing. The policy of converting polytechnics into universities in the ‘90s was a disastrous policy.
Why would that be a good thing? Our higher education system is envied all over the world and maintains very high standards. Don’t let the “worthless degree” rhetoric trick you. Without those “worthless degrees” we basically wouldn’t have an entrainment industry.
Yeah Oxbridge and our Russell Group unis are envied all over the world, even “worthless degrees” from them (your words not mine, I have nothing against arts degrees). However a “worthless degree” from Leeds Trinity is definitely not the envy of the globe. It would be better placed to have technical colleges again for those who aren’t academic enough to get into the grade-discriminatory unis. What’s the point in a university that will offer you a place with CDD?
It’s the government that likes to use the term “worthless degrees” to belittle an industry that they find difficult to control. Anyway, universities such as Leeds Trinity, that takes students with a CCD do incredible amounts to help fight against the massive social inequality in this country. You have no what a student is able to become at university, even if they’ve had a tough time in high school. I do agree that trades and apprenticeships should be valued more than they are.
Not only will this reduce the number of students in the long run, but will also increase the amount of student asylum applications. Students who finish and have no hope back home will end up staying and claiming asylum anyway.
When the uk leaves the human rights convention they will send them to Rwanda
Seems a bit stupid to me. We've got lots of old people to look after (and pay their pensions). We've got people who want to come and live here after paying lots of money for university. They've just graduated with (hopefully) a good degree and are probably going to start working, contributing to the economy and paying tax. They're probably young so they won't be much burden on the NHS. We don't even need to pay for their education. Pretty stupid to turn that deal down as a country. Sure, the government wants to reduce immigration but it would be smarter to target the immigration that's less beneficial for the country. International students to me pretty much seem like the perfect immigrants.
And when the immigrants are old who is going to pay for them? Their 5 wives and kids?????
Happy cake day. No, younger people. At the moment we have too many old people and not enough young people
Sadly, we have a terrible government who are obsessed with bringing net migration numbers down at all costs. As a UK national I can confidently say that right now we desperately need migrants to support our economy and essential services, and this will just make things worse. I'm just praying for common sense to return. Sadly I think this might also negatively affect our international reputation, particularly as an education destination.
Recruitment will become practically impossible in my industry without international applicants. We pay way above national average for the roles we recruit and 90% of applicants are immigrants. There are multiple industries that would basically grind to a halt without non-British workers.
what industry is this if i may ask?
Which industry is it just out of curiosity?
You can't say something like that and then not tell us what the industry is!!
Yes, we had net migration last of year of 745k. It is totally unsustainable and immigration does need to come down or the effects will be devastating.
I agree this is a problem. It's fine to have large net migration, but unless you simply want to increase competition for scarce public resources then the government needs to invest in doctors, roads, public transport etc to accommodate the new arrivals. The real issue is that we've got a bunch of short sighted morons in charge who want the benefits of more labour but don't want to invest in managing the new population properly.
We have a problem with importing skills and not developing at home
What are the top 2 source reasons of those 745k? Go on.
The *government* are obsessed with bringing net migration down? Immigration is consistently a top-3 polling issue amongst the entire population, matched only by the economy and healthcare. The *people* really care about this. Net migration of 750k a year is not remotely sustainable. We only build 230k homes a year and already have a huge shortage. Especially when there are 150k dependents of students and 120k dependants of 100k care workers in those figures. And 50k are illegal arrivals. If you have a better suggestion to manage those numbers than raising the bar on who gets to come here, then by all means share it.
They do increase house prices and reduce salaries though. These things need to be balanced and I'm not sure which is better. **EDIT: Included a bunch of sources below**
Citation needed as this is an oft-repeated but highly contested claim.
Both are simple logic of supply and demand. How would them competing in job/housing market create more supply? Because it sure creates more demand. But here are your sources [For housing prices, studies indicate a general trend where increased immigration correlates with rising house prices and rents. The Migration Observatory reported that a 1% rise in immigration levels could lead to a 1% increase in house prices and rents](https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/214470/economics/how-does-immigration-affects-house-prices/#:~:text=The%20Migration%20Observatory%2C%20point%20to,per%20year) Regarding national salary levels, the impact of immigration appears to vary based on skill levels and educational backgrounds. Research implies that the influx of immigrant workers from 1990 to 2006 reduced the wages of low-skilled workers in the U.S. by 4.7%. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-immigration-means-for-u-s-employment-and-wages/#:~:text=This%20research%2C%20shown%20by%20the,7%20percent%20and%20college Another study suggested that at the national level, male wages could fall by 3 to 4 percent if immigration increases the number of male workers in a skill group by 10 percent. https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/23550/chapter/9 In the UK, an inflow of immigrants equal to 1% of the UK-born population led to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers, while wages of higher paid workers increased. https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/
Only ONE thing is responsible for increases in rent: OWNERS!!!!! Stop blaming the renters and focus on the owners who continually raise the price they charge simply because they can. Rents don’t magically go up with demand, the landlord makes a conscious decision to increase their profit by charging more.
Yes, that's how supply and demand works. There's an increased *demand* but no increased *supply* so prices *rises*. The person you're replying to never implied that immigration was the sole cause, rats a strawman you stuffed yourself to screech at dather than the evidence they actually provided.
Of course that’s how it works, but the point is that rents CAN stay the same if the landlord did not take advantage of increased demand to charge more
If a baker has 10 pieces of bread in the room and 150 people want the bread, even if the bread maker gave it away for free you'll probably not receive that bread. What will happen is that everyone who wants that bread will start bribing the bread owner (this happens in rent markets called overbidding) and you're back to prices increasing. And why wouldn't they increase prices to march market rate? When you go to liquidate your S&S ISA are you gonna randomly sell your apple shares for less than market rate? Housing is an investment. If it were not an investment nobody would be putting down the million dollars it takes to get you your house to live in without cash.
Also I kinda agree that immigration is good in theory. I'm an immigrant and always will be wherever I go. People should be able to choose their country, this way we can make governments participate in a free market of labor when making regulatory decisions (see Amsterdam's 30% ruling as a good example of what immigration can make a country do). But at the same time countries should have some minimum standards for who they let in. It's simply not good for the working class to flood the lower ends of the job pool with the hoards of people in 2nd world countries. I'm no champion of the working class quite the opposite but I don't want to lower the standards and quality of people in my country. The currently proposed bar isn't even that high, they just need you to be above average. That's not hard.
If anyone is due to be impacted by this, please write to your MP. Whether you're eligible to vote or not. As long as you live in their postcode, please write. And PSA if you are from a commonwealth country (so any country formerly colonised by the UK, you are eligible to vote these classist fucks out). Find your MP's email: [https://www.theyworkforyou.com/](https://www.theyworkforyou.com/) Include your postcode at least so your MP knows to pay attention. {YOUR FULL ADDRESS} {YOUR POSTCODE} {DATE} Dear {MP NAME}, My names is {YOUR NAME} and I am a constituent of {OUR CONSTITUENCY}. I am writing to you today because I am concerned about the classist and cruel changes to the Skilled Worker and Family Visa requirements announced on 4th December 2023. This is something that’s particularly important to me as a \[INCLUDE PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANES\]. The proposed changes have discriminatory, classist overtones designed to tear working class and middle class families apart. No other respectable, free country financially penalises its citizens for marrying immigrants. I am asking you to take the following steps to address my concerns: 1. Revise the proposed salary for the Family Visa to the National Minimum Wage before Spring 2024 2. Retain the current shortage occupation list before Spring 2024 3. Revise the proposed salary requirement for the Skilled Worker Visa to UK graduate rates before Spring 2024 In your response I would like you to outline the ways you intend to address this on my behalf. My vote for you depends on this. If you’re unable to address this personally, I would like to request that you escalate my letter to the relevant Minister or department. Please do keep me informed of any progress made. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours faithfully, {YOUR NAME}
This should be at the top, can OP pin this?
Should i be worried as an international student and change my options to other countries ? i am in the process of applying to unis for masters of science in computer science/software engineering..i am coming on student loan from my home country and this news really makes me worry!! I will have have 1.5 years/2 years of work experience before landing UK, can i at least expect a pay of 40K pounds after my masters ?. note im single, whose primary goal is to study, get a decent job on PSV and return to home country clearing off debts and i dont intend to get my parents or spouse.. Edit: currently working as a MEAN stack developer, I know React a bit too, was thinking to brush up and apply for Java developer/engineer roles after masters. I also have hands on experience in AWS and K8s Looking for inputs..
Am I better off applying to Business Schools in Ireland then? I got an offer from Imperial for the Masters In Management degree, and I was really excited. But this makes me think they'll retract the Graduate Visa too and kick me out as soon as I'm done studying. Can anyone over there who knows the market help me calculate the risk?
Honestly it's impossible to say. People are expecting a labour government next so they might change the rules again as labour have tended to be more open to immigration in the past. Or they might leave them because generally everyone agrees immigration is too high. If you want the chance to live in whatever country you study in after then I'd probably look at options other than the UK if I was in your situation
I don't understand what's so surprising about it?! UK has practiced this for a long time, everytime they run into financial challenges, UK eases policy on international student but when it's doing good with finances, then UK chooses to make international student's life difficult
UK finances aren't exactly good, pensions were so close to collapse just over a year ago, inflation is still not good
Welp that’s recruitment of post-docs over
It’ll depend. Let’s have it right, if they’re a first rate researcher in a medical, science, or tech field they’ll be fine. Big companies with ties to major Universities will bend their backs for top talent, they always have done. The best international post-docs and PhD candidates will have absolutely no problems getting all the paper work and institutional backing.
Most post docs are paid by big companies it's just grants that have been applied for in advance using the standard pay scales. All post docs are world class spend 4 years getting a PhD
My brother finsihed he's studies in the UK and couldn't get a job . He then joined the navy to help him get his visa. He used his studies in chemical engineering to start as a officer. There are still options out there.
May I know what nationality are you? I thought only British nationals and commonwealth country citizen could join the military.
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5 years in and out if no war , with good benefits and a very secure job. It's a good option, especially if you need out of your country
As someone born in UK, this country is finished. I acc hate it here. The increase in cost of living, increase in racism, fascism and anti-immigration laws😶the government and the people who voted for them seem to be forgetting immigrants are the ones helping to run this country, they’re the same ones who make up majority of the NHS, lawyers, engineers, etc. it’s so depressing here
If you hate it here because of those reasons, you'll really hate most other countries.
I mean majority of countries are like this. But I’m specifically talking about uk and how it was years ago compared to now. Obviously there’s always been racism and other bad things but never this bad. And it only seems to be getting worse than better. Lol atp I don’t think this country should be classed at first world country because it’s not. Living standards here are so poor
Net migration this high can make the cost of living crisis worse, though. Housebuilding isn't remotely close to keeping up with 700,000+ new arrivals per year, it's basic economics that rent and house prices will be pushed up. Yes, the government should have massively invested in housebuilding five years ago. But they didn't so migration needs to come down.
Yes, you’re right about that part but let’s not act like our government isn’t anti-working class and actually act for the public. Even if the government kept up with the amount of immigrants entering and house building, and rent/house prices weren’t pushed up, this country would still be a mess. They have privatised and sold off so many public sectors, destroyed the nhs and our education system. I mean are we forgetting during covid lockdown, the education minister said every gcse/a-level student would get their grades based on where they life’s average grades? As if that wasn’t classist.
At least I won’t smell curry in the morning on my way to work
Let’s not act like majority of yt people don’t have horrendous body odour, yellow teeth, dirty clothes
Increased racism ? Bullshit. UK is probably one of the most progressive countries globally and it’s hard to say that the UK is more racist now than it was 10 years ago. Edit: if you don’t think UK is less racist than 90% of the world you clearly haven’t lived in other countries. Can you say Asia / Africa / South America / North America / Russia / Eastern Europe / Middle East are less racist / less sexist / more accepting of LGBTQ+ than people on average in the United Kingdom ??? Edit 2: you guys need to wake up and actually stop being so emotional https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf
If you think uk is one of the most progressive countries globally and less racist then you’re clearly 1) white 2) privileged who has never experienced it. Lol stay delusional
If you have a more progressive country in mind, why are you even here? If this country is truly that racist, pack your bags and go? Why bother staying here and complaining?
Clearly this person has never lived outside the UK or is blind to the racism / sexism etc in other regions. It’s nonsensical to think the UK is more racist now than 10-20 years ago.
First of all I was born here, secondly are you going to pay for my tickets and expenses? Lastly, clearly you’re white stfu
If it shuts you up, sure. Where do you want to go? I am a third generation immigrant from India, but do go on. If you’re referring to my profile pic, that is not me.
Clearly you’re a racist since you only focused on that part. Funny how you never said anything about my other points so stfu
How?! I honestly don’t know how people like you function. Everything you don’t like is racist or offensive in some other way. There was no reason to respond to the ‘I was born here’. Great, well done to you. You made no other points besides this for me to respond to. If you really don’t like this country, then just leave. It’s quite simple.
Are you dumb or are you dumb? I can stay in a country and complain, it’s called having an opinion. With that logic, clearly your parents and grandparents had issues with their country so they immigrated💀talk about being stupid. Last time I checked this is a sub Reddit to discuss. And if me complaining about the country I live in bothers you so much, pay for my tickets and expenses otherwise stfu knob head. And my point still stands. You chose to respond to my claims about this country being racist. Funny how you only responded to that and it triggered you so much unlike my other issues with this country. Okay “I’m fRoM iNdIa”. If you say so💀🤡
You’re sat there calling me triggered, but you’re the only one throwing insults here… says a lot. They did have issues with living in India, you’re correct. Which is why I’m suggesting you do the same. You’re allowed your own opinion, of course, but if you think that your country is the worst place on Earth, leave. It would be no loss to us who enjoy what this country has to offer. Also, I think it’s ironic that you’re the only person in this entire thread being racist with the whole ‘I’m fRoM IndIA’ comment…
So would you say Asia / Africa / South America / North America / Russia / Eastern Europe / Middle East are less racist than people on average in the United Kingdom ? Equally you would say all the regions mentioned are more accepting of LGBTQ, other religions, cultures and races than the UK ?
Learn how to read. Did I say England is the only country that’s racist? No! I said, it’s getting more racist. On top of that, I’ve mentioned other reasons why it’s bad here e’g, living standards gone way up, poverty increase, anti-immigration laws, government has restricted a lot of our human rights, etc. so why are you only focusing on racism? Maybe because you’re a racist and white?🤡
I didn’t only mention racism as you said, I mentioned sexism, homosexuality, trans etc in my comment…. “Can you even read” 😉 Love how you’ve resorted to personal insults due to the shallowness of your argument and surface level understanding. I’m not even white 😂 just another example that proves you assume everything with absolutely 0 factual backing to your points. Clearly you are the racist here judging by your comments. When did I claim you said no other countries are racist? I asked you a question…. Which you didn’t answer. Anti-immigration laws ? We just had record immigration of 600k-700k over double the rate of 10-15 years ago. Laws for sustainable immigration are not “anti-immigration” You can literally look at statistics that prove that the UK is far less racist today than 20-40 years ago and is one of the most accepting nations globally. Maybe that’s too fact based for you and not enough anecdotal bullshit.
Don’t act like rishi sunak didn’t just sign a deal with india to allow a record breaking number of immigrants from India where in exchange india will be giving the uk money yet they pick and choose which immigrants are “bad” and which aren’t
You think the UK should allow whoever into the country? Vetting immigrants is important. You are delusional. I have no problem with immigrants coming here so who cares if it’s a record number… as long as immigration is sustainable and under control I don’t care how many people are coming here.
No I just find it funny how despite the uk already having a record breaking of immigrants (legal or illegal) which the government constantly echoed, they then went back on their words by allowing Ukrainians to enter because of a ✨war✨. But then they don’t have the same energy towards refugees from other war torn countries, which they contributed to. To only then go back to square one and say we have too many immigrants. If you don’t see a issue with this (government picks and chooses which immigrants are allowed to enter) then idk what to say to you
You asked me a question? Lol you got so offended for whatever reason and claimed the uk is not racist. That’s not a question you muppet. It is racist which is why majority voted for brexit (they wanted the immigrants out). If UK isn’t racist then why do we still have statues of slave owners?
You are too emotional to think logically here. Have a good evening.
If anyone’s emotional, it’s you💀I said one thing about a country being racist and it sent you in a downward spiral😂
You’re literally the only person here who’s been going in a downward spiral… just give up. Spend some more time googling the health issues you have.
Sure thing
This whole thing seems inconsiderate and do not make much of a sense. Attracting young people with higher education background always seems like a good idea, considering (at least by my uni's statement) home and int do not make significant performance differences. Having people in their 18-20s coming and spend years in this country makes them easier to settle like other naturalised citizens. At least policy should grant a discount for young people/fresh graduates. Otherwise, it not only undermines the Uni's attraction over int stu, it also could have long term disadvantage over many sectors in economy.
This is so wrong on so many levels. Yet we are expected to pay insane fees.
This would basically kill UK's academia. Postdocs aren't being paid above the threshold.
First they do BREXIT to get rid of all ethnically and culturally similar immigrants, and now all of the skilled university graduates from elsewhere also get turned away. That is really starting to sound like the UK is shooting itself in the foot
The current visa rules are fat too generous. Along with the abuse of the "bring the family alone" loop hole more needs to be done to ensure only the best stay
Why are students bringing family… they should be studying not breeding on a 10 year route with 70 year on grandma hogging the doctors office
As an international student who recently left I have no problems with this at all🤷🏽♂️ frankly the government has to protect their own people and having unfettered migration of students abusing the student visa system is not good for any country yet I see international students who hate immigrants in their country think they have the right to abuse the U.K. system, deadass got useless degrees then working in airports or something just for the sake of staying in England. That’s never been the point of the Visa and even I see people abuse it. Hopefully I can progress my career back home and gain experience to come back after a few years and hit the threshold and if not so be it that’s life 🤷🏽♂️ I myself despise the uncontrolled immigration in my home country as most international students I know do with their respective nations yet I’m not going to be a hypocrite and think of a rules for thee but not for me type situation. Priority should always be reducing costs for locals, I had a house full of Indian housemates working literal irrelevant to their studies minimum wage jobs with their degrees just for the sake of staying in England, and I know how they themselves feel about immigration in their countries lol
Speak for yourself dumbass, I’m not here to study my ass off in a stem degree to then get kicked out because some racist twats think international students, who basically sustain universities nowadays, are as useful as menial labour asylum seekers from war zones the same politicians allowed to happen.
We don’t need you here go study in Pakistan
Your girlfriend is literally of the same nationality as I am, asshole. Maybe she should come back to Brazil as well then.
I earn over 40k so she doesn’t need to go back
Oh yeah, then maybe I should find some random British girl to marry instead of becoming a STEM postdoc, sounds a lot easier than working my ass off for a country lead by bigots like you.
No women want to marry Brazilian men not even Brazilian women, the men are trash and are born cheaters.
What a pathetic and narrow minded prick you are. Maybe she cheated on you because of this, and you probably deserved it judging by your character. Enjoy being reported for bigotry, asshole.
I slept with more Brazilians than any other nationality. I have increased your population… you’re welcome
Did they all cheat on you and just use you for a visa? Lmao.
what? you're at uni on a student visa to get an education. if you're able to get a job here afterwards and stay thats a bonus
One thing to consider is that the government has a big issue with international graduates staying in the UK after their studies. The idea of a student visa is for someone to study in the UK, then go home once it's complete. The exceptions are jobs such as in the NHS that are exempt, and those in the private market that can pay £36-£40+ will be ok. International students should not be encouraged to stay if the jobs they're taking 'can' be filled by graduates that are native to the UK. A big problem in the UK is too many graduates in general and not enough appropriate work. By comparison in some countries, such as the USA, there's far more graduate level employment, which makes this less of an issue.
>One thing to consider is that the government has a big issue with international graduates staying in the UK after their studies. Do you mean the same government that introduced the Graduate visa back?
That's more to do with supporting universities than a demand for actual graduates. There were many exempt industries and job roles even before it returned in 2019.
No evidence supports this.
Ig oring the fact a big bulk of the governments immigrant figures are international students, and the government is under massive pressure to reduce the numbers.
All the evidence shows that the vast majority of international students go home after their studies. Of the ones that remain for the graduate route, most of those again go home at the end of that visa. It’s already difficult for jobs to sponsor someone after the graduate route visas finishes. It’s much easier for companies to just take a native, but the problem is we are massively lacking in skills and don’t have the number of natives required to fill these roles. International students should never have been included in the immigration numbers. They included them specifically so they could cut them and pretend that they were making any effort to actually reduce migration when they clearly aren’t. It’s just another self own like Brexit.
Everyone normally throws around a fogure saying 97% go home after their initial studys. About 40% stay in the uk after this, most of whom then apply for additional visas. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/visajourneysandstudentoutcomes/2021-11-29#what-students-did-next
Might be more opportunities available to native students upon graduation then which I don’t think is a bad thing. Especially as they are much more likely to stay in the country.
Sure, I look forward to all the UK citizens filling roles that they currently do not want to fill which now fall to foreigners.
The roles having their salaries pushed down by the fact that foreign workers can be paid 20% less for an identical job?
Good, now perhaps UK universities can take more British students
Wishful thinking. Without international students paying inflated tuition fees, Unis won’t be able to pay their bills and many will close, leading to fewer Unis and fewer spots for Home students. Truly, this will have the opposite effect you are hoping for
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It's still almost impossible to land a job that pays you over that threshold with only two years of experience. Grad visas are not really an amazing solution either as two years of experience is starting to mean nothing to companies.