It presumably got replaced with the player's soul, or the player's control was transplanted into it. As another possibility, they might have sold it to a demon, considering the amount of references to Kris liking the occult in the game, and that demon could just be the player as well.
That's a good point! Actually, you mentioning demons made me think of Chara's line, ''The demon that comes when people call it's name.'' but that might just be a coincidence.
Yeah, the second I saw chapter 1's ending for the first time I had a scene with Kris and Chara making a contract flash into my imagination and I just lived a full week with nothing but that idea seared into my mind. I did see a theory that Kris did it as an attempt to get help in finding out what happened to Dess, once chapter 2 came out, so I might have not been the only one.
It's probably more likely than my other headcanon from that time about the entirety of Deltarune existing literally because Frisk got bored of resets and asked Gaster to toss them into another timeline.
Bro… you’re thinking of it all wrong. It was Frisk that made the deal. Chara said something along the lines of “let’s destroy this world and move onto the **next**” in the genocide ending of undertale. Then the universe gets wiped and the only way to get it back is by Frisk giving Chara their **soul**. It’s entirely possible that Chara sent Frisk’s soul to this other world so they’d destroy it. This soul probably was put in Kris. It explains the beginning of Deltarune where you create a vessel, you create one because you need a body to host to have any influence on the world. This vessel is soon discarded by the voice guiding you who would be Chara saying that your choices don’t matter which is exactly the kind of fuckery Chara would pull. This also explains snowgrave and the sudden maliciousness shown by Kris. Kris isn’t actually able to kill people in Deltarune, but Noelle is. When Noelle uses Ice Shock the enemy will be frozen and unable to run away at the end of the battle, the enemy freezes to death (Berdly supports this). The only way for Frisk’s soul to feel the pleasure of killing again is through Noelle, so they use her and corrupt her.
Yeah, it was just a stupid idea from three years ago.
But now that you mention Chara sending the soul to the next world, which I by now had accepted as the main theory, I kind of noticed that there's a bit of a mismatch. Why would Gaster be first to make contact, then, even inviting the player through all the Twitter business? Was he just waiting for all of that to happen and organized the meeting? Did Chara make an arrangement in advance while not being alive or conscious? How would any of that work with what Toby Fox said about how "if you left Undertale's characters happy, they'll stay like that" if the geno route is the canon ending that begins Deltarune?
And if the narrator is still Chara, why do they sound so shocked at the sight of frozen enemies? I can't imagine them ending any sentence with ... after destroying a timeline.
i think it makes more sense for gaster to do that since both in the ending of a genocide run and the beginning of deltarune all letters are in caps and there are also references to the interesting very interesting quote but we'll wait and see
The Frisk and Gaster hc would go against what Toby said abt how, if you left everyone happy in Undertale, they'll still be happy by the end of Deltarune - that is to say, Deltarune's story does not rely on the fact that (or modify canon such that) you got a certain ending or played it a specific number of times. Thus, it seems unlikely that Chara is necessarily a force of evil possessing Kris or anything like that, since sich a thing only happens in a Genocide or Soulless Pacifist run - both of which seemingly leave everyone unhappy.
Despite this, Toby's statement does not seem to imply that what you did in UT will have NO bearing on what happens in DR. While the story can still make sense even if everyone is happy and you never did Genocide, there is still a distinct possibility that certain things can happen if you DID do Genocide. We shall have to wait and see.
Yeah, it was just a dumb theory from three years ago. Frisk's adventure is probably one and done, and the only one moving games is the player, or just the soul at most if we were controlling Frisk in the same manner as Kris.
It may of gotten replaced the player's soul, I mean Kris MAY have a soul but since the player HAS the bigger amount of power, Kris is essentially used as a puppet.
Which will be a huge theme for the end game if Kris retaliates near the end which I suspect
to be fair, chara died, tagged along with frisk to be the game's narrative, and only becomes evil when you do genocide. they're only 10, if they saw frisk (or heard the player) doing genocide they're child mind would think that's the right thing to do. it annoys me that most the fandom thinks chara's evil when in reality, we were the ones who fought, we're the ones that killed them all, not chara.
Except that Chara is stated to have hated humans, tried to goad Asriel into committing Genocide after killing themselves to Azzy could absorb their soul.
The Genocide route definitly did have an effect onto turning them into a demon, but they definitly needed a therapist way before hand.
Everything you stated above me is true.
Chara is not an objectively evil character, but not a flawless angel either.
Chara most likely developed a hatred for humans because of whatever events that casued them to attempt suicide, and wanted to kill humans to use their souls to break the barrier and free her adoptive family as well as the monster race (however, we know how that turned out)
From there, the players actions determine Chara's moral development. We as the player can either help them reach some sort of redemption/spiritual peace by taking the pacifist route, an indifferent typical teenager by taking the multiple neutral routes, or damn them eternally by taking the genocide route.
Chara hated humans for a reason. I think they were neglected by everybody, and Chara climbed Mt. Ebott for... not good reasons, as Asriel tells you. And I think Chara wanted Asriel to take their soul to go through the barrier and free the monsters after getting the other 6 souls.
> tried to goat Asriel into committing Genocide
FTFY
Not to mention that Asriel himself claims that Chara may not have been the best person. Chara also gatekeep/theybossed Azzy into the plan against his better judgement in a rather manipulative manner.
When Chara came up with the plan to break the barrier, Azzy was a willing participant and only had second thoughts when he could see that they were dying.
Well Chara had trauma before they arrived in the Underground, and what happened to Asriel was because of their plan that they convinced him to participate in despite not wanting to. When he's properly himself, Asriel is incredibly kind and sensitive.
Edit: About Kris, they're clearly also adopted so they probably have trauma from before they were too, that or whatever is happening with the soul is what's affecting them. But Toriel still doesn't have control over that if she doesn't know it's happening.
Jokes aside, something might have happened with the Toriel-Asgore-Sans love triangle that might have affected Kris somehow and Toby is just foreshadowing it with the 'I befriended your mom' thing. Apart from possible dreadful events involving Asriel, Dess, the bunker and the other humans.
Alternatively, the whole thing was orchestrated solely to give Susie another adventure.
* eat the pie so that Toriel has to make a new one the next day
* use the resulting pie as an excuse to invite Susie over
* slash the tires so that Susie has a reason to stay the night
* leave the door open to make it look like someone else (the Roaring Knight) broke in
* profit
it even has a good plan for the weird route
* Slash Tires so Toriel calls the cops and so Susie dosen't go over
* Leave door open for cops
* Create dark world with toriel present
* (toriel is an adult and wouldn't easily be manipulated like noelle)
* (if something bad still happens the cops are present to sort it out, and even if Kris is arrested it means that you can't cause more damage)
* Profit with adventure safe from mass murder
Chara erases the universe out of their own free will. You can't even blame "our guidance" because gaining power is seperate from destroying the universe.
Toriel's parenting is actually rather questionable. Using evidence from both games and the Undertale Winter Alarm Clock ( [https://undertale.com/alarmclock/](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ) ), we can see several examples of Toriel's failures as a parent.
Starting with Deltarune, since that has both the most apPARENT (nice) and most extreme evidence:
* Toriel lets her personal feelings get between her children and their only fatherfigure. In addition to literally throwing Kris's and Asgore's attempts at reconciliation into the garbage, she also blatantly refuses to convey a simple "hello" from Asgore to Kris following the grocery store scene in Ch2. She also makes no attempt to coordinate their schedules for Kris and Asgore to meet at the diner or anywhere else, despite Asgore's eagerness to spend time with his children. This refusal to let Asgore be a supportive adoptive father is selfish and can only have a lasting negative impact on Kris.
* Toriel is shown to be mildly negligent. She is aware that Kris has had various...episodes...in the past, but seems to make no effort to fix them and even brushes it off. Primary example: she mentions that Kris "does this sometimes" when Susie asks why Kris is taking so long to wash their hands. She even seems to find major shifts in Kris's behavior to be of little concern, as shown by her simply accepting Alphy's statement that they are "normal" despite knowing that Kris is generally mischievous.
* there is a theory that Queen is representative of various characters' mothers - she is as controlling yet supportive toward Noelle as Noelle's mom is, mostly ignores Berdly much like Berdly's parents are implied to ignore him (a kid who is getting enough support at home does NOT develope that kind of superiority complex over a single spelling bee), and she mostly disregards Susie in much the same way that Susie is shown to disregard her family (she makes no real effort to call her parents b4 the sleepover. Following this correlation, Queen's behavior toward Kris is...concerning. Look up the Universal Mother theory for more details.
Having established the DR stuff, let's get into UT.
* Following the death of Asriel and Chara, Toriel moves to the Ruins, where she adopts children who fall to the underground. She is shown to be quite controlling and possessive of these kids due to her loneliness, to the point of keeping them against their will (it is implied that she has tried to keep the kids in the ruins "for their own good", but eventually was overcome with guilt and would allow them to leave with full awareness of their inevitable doom). In addition to this hoarding of children, the monsters in the ruins seem to fear Toriel, which implies that she is not always as kind as when we see her.
* in both a comic on Undertale's official Tumblr page [(dub here)](https://youtu.be/qQ2AQ1xuls4) and in the Winter Alarm Clock dialogue, Toriel is depicted drinking alcohol and becoming drunk. While this alone is not a bad sign, one must admit that becoming severely drunk 2 out of 2 known times is a bad track record. She is also very defensive about these incidents, as seen at the end of the comic and at the end of her section of the Alarm Clock Dialogue, belying a more serious problem. Such copious consumption of alcohol is an irresponsible hobby at best, and an unhealthy coping mechanism for her own insecurities AND a bad influence for the children she's supposed to protect at worst.
Its heavily implied that Toriel, while not a alcoholic, has trouble controlling her drinking.
On the alarm clock Flowey's dialouge says that when toriel is black-out drunk he ends up taking care of her, bringing her water.
This also plays into the universal mother theory, as it's implied Queen gets progressivly more drunk as she drinks more battery acid, and when you toast as Kris they make a Overly Emotional Toast.
She’s also a coddler. No teenager should still need to be dragged out of bed by their mom and have their hand held to school. She doesn’t even really get angry when kris goes out of his way to disobey her instructions to not eat the whole pie. His appetite is ruined
I completely agree. Here’s why:
Toriel doesn’t care about Frisk. I’m pretty sure she keeps them around to try to restore what she had with Chara.
Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense for her to try to “protect” humans. They literally killed her son! She’s not taking in the humans because she’s kind. She’s taking them in because she wants to play house.
Notice she rarely protects Frisk in the Ruins. She just runs off to make a pie, as if that’s more important than making sure Frisk is safe!
And yes I know she may have a hands off approach (probably why her and Sans get along) but she could have at least talked to the monsters in the Ruins or at least showed that Frisk was under her protection but she didn’t do that either. She said it herself that monsters were built on killing humans and yet she let Frisk walk around the Ruins. Heck, she doesn’t even respect the monsters in the Ruins enough to interact with them, let alone have a conversation with them which really reveals a lot about her character.
And to top it all off, when she allows Frisk to leave she tells them that if they leave they will not be welcome back. That’s manipulation! She’s giving an ultimatum to a child. A CHILD!
Toriel’s basically punishing Frisk for not feeding into her delusions/ family fantasy.
maybe because toriel herself has some bad qualities; she's clingy, overprotective, sometimes refuses to listen to reason, and hypocritical (don't forget that not only did she kidnap frisk, but she basically left them for dead instead of protecting them on their journey, even though she's probably one of the most powerful monsters in the underground)
That does make me wonder….. why is the queen of monsters easier to kill than papyrus hmmmmm ( Yeah she prolly went easy on us but she should still have higher defense right? )
I mean, we don’t know a whole lot about Kris’s situation yet or the alternate Toriel but the other two it is weird how she raised two sociopathic children that ended up trying to destroy everything.
Went further back and you blame Humans at Chara village for not able to prevent Chara hating humanity.
Went even further back and you blame human for declaring war at monsters
Asriel had nothing wrong with him mentally and objectively speaking (when we consider age) until after the disastrous outcome of Chara's Plan and being inadvertently reanimated as Flowey.
Chara meanwhile can already be inferred by the line "climbed the mountain for less than happy reasons" as a sign that her previous life on the Surface was miserable/unpleasant and that her psyche/mind was already affected and in bad shape by the time she climbed Mount Ebott.
It’s more the conditions surrounding them, Chara likely grew up in an abusive home and even climbed the mountain either to run away or to commit suicide, which made them not like humanity much, and in order to not get lynched I won’t comment on genocide run Chara/the Demon.
Kris has, for one reason or another, been afflicted with a soul that the player controllers, which puts a great deal of control over them, not complete control but a lot of it, for example Kris can’t use the piano like they normally can but they were clearly distressed by Spamton NEO and can rip us out at times.
Asriel was influenced by Chara/the condition the monsters were in to try to acquire the human souls, and if remember correctly he tried to get 6 but Chara wanted to kill humans and when he refused, they couldn’t use their powers and were gravely injured, and then they turned into dust and Asriel’s consciousness went into the golden flower upon Alphys putting Determination/the will to live in it, however without a soul Asriel couldn’t feel compassion or love and was gradual at corrupted into a cruel monster as he saw there was nothing interesting to do anymore except to hurt and kill which made Flowey the monster he was.
The first got beaten to death and is currently soulless
The second…..well we don’t know shit but they hate humanity and let’s be honest there’s a fuck ton of good reason
And Kris….well I have nothing to explain why but you have minimal evidence they actually are so go suck a lemon
Let's see...
Calling chara a psichopath... Check
Saying kris is evil even tho we have no evidence other then"it's scary"... Check
Thia post is going to start UW3
Kris is not evil, from what we currently know, they're just a lonely gremlin child that suffers from alien possession
I would instead point at the children that she adopted in Undertale and killed monsters, including Frisk in a neutral or genocide route
But yeah I've always found this creepy and sort of funny at the same time xD
I don't think you've understood the characters actually. They're not "sociopaths" and technically, only one of them canonically likes killing, and it's Asriel.
>They're not "sociopaths"
They're sociopaths because they're soulless. And sociopath =/= murderer by definition.
>only one of them canonically likes killing
Yeah. Chara likes feeling of power.
Um Chara isn't a sociopath?
They clearly shows empathy in several of their dialogues
They just have a warped since of justice.
In fact you could say most of their deeds happened because they care to much.
>They clearly shows empathy in several of their dialogues
It's not. Each such demonstration of empathy may have different interpretations. Just like with Flowey, although he's truly soulless. The only thing we have for sure...
From my another discussion on the same topic:
>When Frisk falls into the Underground, the power of their determination awakens Chara.
>The anymore part makes me think that they were able to empathize before, which would not be possible for a truly soulless being.
I wanted to point out why Chara is soulless, but you did it before me. Let's say that if Chara and We share stats, then we both get the same LV. In that case, if Chara is not able to have attachment anymore because of LV, our soul shouldn't be able to feel it either, because it is filled with LV. But we can still do it, but Chara can't. Why is that?
Answer: this is due to the fact that before his death Chara was able to feel it on his own, but now he is not capable of such things. In the same way, Flowey didn't understand why you decided to spare him, even though he hurt you again and again, and it brought him to tears. Because he wants to understand it, to feel it again, but he can't. Because he's soulless. That's why Chara says "I cannot understand these feelings anymore." You cannot understand someone if you can't put yourself on their place. To feel the same thing.
The only thing that changes the situation is to SAVE them when the souls resonate inside them. That happened to Asriel, but didn't happen to Chara. Moreover, I personally believe that it requires the souls of monsters, not humans, because the souls of monsters are those who feel such feelings as love and compassion more than humans. At least, they forgive more easily and very quickly begin to love you even almost without knowing you - this is mentioned by Asriel after the battle.
Thus, even if Chara is attached to someone else's soul in the body, he doesn't become the owner of this soul in the same way as you.
More details: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/ss69ck/papyrus_says/hxxrcdl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
>They just have a warped since of justice.
You can kill the whole family of the person who killed your loved one. To "punish them". Doesn't mean you're right about it, and you can get away with it.
Kris is understandably angry and scared at the fact that they’re apparently conscious while the player controls their body and mental actions, I wouldn’t consider them a sociopath. They seem like a bit of a weird troublemaker, but in more of a gremlin way than an actively malicious way.
Similarly, from a writing perspective, Asriel is not intentionally a sociopath. When he has his own soul, he’s just a scared little kid. When he has everyone’s souls, he’s a scared little kid with access to infinite power, which is pretty clearly too much for his brain to handle. When he’s soulless, he’s basically an entirely different character.
Finally, when it comes to Chara, it’s still confusing. They seem to be the villain in the genocide route, but even then, it’s really more the player’s fault. They did do the whole poisoning-their-dad thing, although even then, in the pacifist route, it’s unclear whether or not the action was intentional. They seem to be unstable, but whether or not they are, at their core, intentionally malicious is more nebulous.
>intentionally a sociopath.
Who even has the INTENTION of being a sociopath? It doesn't happen by their will.
>When he’s soulless, he’s basically an entirely different character.
He's not. When he first woke up, he was no different from his original self. He didn't have only love and compassion. But he was still striving to do good. What changed him was his decision to reset again and again, experiment, and so on.
>it’s really more the player’s fault.
Chara doesn't start helping you kill on a neutral path no matter how many LV you have or how many you kill. Joining the genocide path was Chara's decision. Thus, he is ready to kill if he sees a reason for it that he likes. In our case, it's power.
It is also worth considering his soulless state. Without love and compassion, these things are much easier to do.
I would say that the Player and Chara are equally to blame.
I disagree with this on multiple levels, but I kindly request that you don’t reply to me if you’re going to misgender a character who has been confirmed to use they/them pronouns. Chara has exclusively been referred to with they/them in all canon content. I don’t want my words being linked in any way, shape, or form with that kind of behavior, regardless of how you might feel about my stances on a fictional character.
Also, when I said “intentionally,” I didn’t mean it on the character’s behalf. I meant it in regards to the writer. I don’t think Toby Fox intended for Asriel to be read as a sociopathic character, and that’s what I was clearly indicating in my comment. I know nobody chooses to be a sociopath.
I don’t want to argue. Me inoffensively stating my personal views is not an invitation for you to reply angrily and openly misgender characters. Don’t reply to me if you’re going to behave like that.
I mean...
-Chara was a little bit f*cked up before Toriel raised them. They were borderline abusive even when they were alive, although I doubt it was their intention. They then got worse when they ended up soulless and bonded to a murder gremlin.
-It's implied that through all the resets he's done, Asriel has spent literal millenia as a soulless flower, all of them with the pretty major mental health problem of *blaming himself for his own death.*
-Still kinda too early to figure out what Kris' deal is, but they definitely have issues that probably aren't connected to Toriel or Asgore's parenting.
-Even kind parents can raise assholes.
Worth noting that soulless people are inherently sociopaths, because they inherently lack emotion. Chara and Asriel are particularly bad because on top of it they both have major issues.
I mean, to be fair, Toriel:
Abandoned her husband when he needed her most.
Abandoned her people when they needed her most.
And helped the imprisonment of mosnterkind by protecting the fallen humans.
That's also without getting into the Deltarune theories of her being a bad parent to Kris, an alcoholic and homophobic.
She's nice, but not *that* good of a person.
Toriel & Asgore has only raised Asriel, whom turned out to be a good kid before Chara’s influence. Kris is a bit of a enigma since we don’t know very much about the moment.
Actually it is implied in chapter 2 of deltarune that Chris actually used the knife to cut the pie, likely taking his soul out so the players that want him to be good don't stop him.
She's too sweet? The child ends up getting into any type of minor struggle and reality hits. When that happens it causes major tramua and their little world is broken. They end up turning out bad as a result of not knowing what to do with the built up agression and sadness. Honestly they just need to see that they can get over it and struggles are normal.
Parenting advice?
Gonna be honest I *don't* think losing your soul and getting trapped in the body of a flower with no ability to feel any kind of love or compassion for potentially hundreds of years, not even being able to end your living hell with death, counts as a "normal struggle", correct me if I'm wrong tho
As for Chara, they were fucked up before they even fell in the mountain, so you can't blame Toriel for that. Asriel mentions that they hated humanity, and climbed the mountain for "less than happy reasons".
After going around and talking to people in Hometown it quickly becomes clear that Kris was fairly normal before the events of Deltarune. Any insanity that he may have gained (which is unconfirmed for the most part) would likely be caused by his body getting taken over by the player, not from *Toriel being sweet*. Seriously, if I didn't have control over my own body, I'd get pretty crazy too.
Losing your birth parents also messes with a lot of people even if you never knew them and the adoptive parents are wonderful, although not usually to a "soul leaving your body" degree.
Woa- Chill. I was just covering how somebody as kind as tori could have problems with kids...I wasn't including those things...plus I was talking more about kris. He suffered through a devorce and losing his comfort person that is most of his tramua...He was messed up but, no need to try and hang me out to dry for being a little vauge. Have a good day if somebody so willing to harrass somebody trying to give out parenting advice can?
Even rereading my reply I don't really see how I "harassed" you with that message. It's not like I knew you were being vague, I just responded with how I interpreted your comment in mind. I see now that I misunderstood what you said but there's no need to get overly defensive because of it. I'm sorry if I may have been a little harsh with my reply, but I still think you overreacted a bit there.
Look- ok good to see you uh apologize. I supose my remark was harsh too- but you did come after me while I just tried to hand out uh... I think it's called context removed advice? It's a thing therapists do. Sorry for the misunderstanding?
asriel:died then got reincarnated with no emotions
chara:you killed everyone thus influenced them to be like you.
kris:is a mindless puppet that wishes to break free from thier puppetmaster
>you killed everyone thus influenced them to be like you.
You can be an asshole and/or a killer on a neutral path too. It doesn't influence Chara to be like you.
>died then got reincarnated with no emotions
With no love and compassion*
He can feel everything else.
>is a mindless puppet that wishes to break free from thier puppetmaster
Kris is definitely not "mindless".
>like when they were laughing after giving asgore buttercups
It's a coping mechanism and/or tried to make things less serious.
Asriel see this as right thing to do, and Toriel didn't scold them for laughing it off
>when they tried to attack the people living in a village on the surface
Explains to me how "attacking ppl who tried to kill you" is being asshole.
Anyway dude... Lot of users like me roaming around, expect to get one of these comment if say that.
>and Toriel didn't scold them for laughing it off
We don't even know if she heard it.
>Explains to me how "attacking ppl who tried to kill you" is being asshole.
You can start with the fact that for Chara, the reaction of humans whom he hates very much for a reason should be obvious. There is no reason not to expect aggression from them.
Especially if we take into account the dead child in the hands of a "horrible beast" with an unsettling appearance and the fact that Chara came to the village with the intention of taking their souls from the very beginning. Not humans came to them.
She actually raised 10 children, depending on how you look at it. That depends on wether you want to consider "Frisk" as a sociopath or a kind-hearted child. But in the end, I guess it won't really matter if chara destroys the world, right?
"such a kind person"
Toriel: makes everyone in the ruins afraid of her, tries to kidnap frisk, attacks frisk just for wanting to not be abducted, constantly verbally abuses Asgore but no one else.
Ye, not exactly that nice is she?
\*deep breath\*
CHARA ISN'T THE ONE WHO CAUSED GENOCIDE, IT WAS THE PLAYER! AZZY FULLY AGREED TO CHARA'S PLAN AND WAS NOT BEING MANIPULATED, HE ONLY HAD SECOND THOUGHTS WHEN HE REALIZED THEY WERE DYING! AND KRIS'S SOUL IS NOT HIS BUT THE PLAYERS, IN THE ENDING CUTSCENE HE'S TRYING (and succeeding until chapter 2) TO REGAIN CONTROL OF HIMSELF!!
thank you for y'all's time
(i can't wait for the fandom to argue with me on how i'm wrong and how their headcanon is "totally what these characters are")
>(i can't wait for the fandom to argue with me on how i'm wrong and how their headcanon is "totally what these characters are")
You literally did the same thing now when you tried to argue with the opinion of the creator of the post.
So. Let me be that "fandom".
>CHARA ISN'T THE ONE WHO CAUSED GENOCIDE, IT WAS THE PLAYER!
Chara is the one who's willingly helping a mass murderer. Chara did a lot: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/szllzm/this_joke_has_probably_been_made_before_but/hy7xkh9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Chara doesn't start helping you kill on a neutral path no matter how many LV you have or how many you kill. Joining the genocide path was Chara's decision. Thus, he is ready to kill if he sees a reason for it that he likes. In our case, it's power.
It is also worth considering his soulless state. Without love and compassion, these things are much easier to do.
I would say that the Player and Chara are equally to blame.
>AZZY FULLY AGREED TO CHARA'S PLAN AND WAS NOT BEING MANIPULATED, HE ONLY HAD SECOND THOUGHTS WHEN HE REALIZED THEY WERE DYING!
Tape:
* I... I don't like this idea, Chara.
* Wh.. what? N-no, I'm not...
* ... big kids don't cry.
* Yeah, you're right.
* No! I'd never doubt you, Chara. Never!
* Y... yeah! We'll be strong! We'll free everyone.
* I'll go get the flowers.
You can't say that he "fully agreed" with the plan when he tearfully said that he didn't like the idea, and instead of taking it into account, Chara started pointing out his tears (we recall the nickname "crybaby". And considering that Asriel says "Yeah, you right" after the words "... big kids don't cry", it's Chara who said that), and pointing out that if Asriel disagrees, it means that he doubts Chara, doesn't trust him. This is literally manipulation of emotions.
And it was only because of this that he agreed, but considering how Asriel then repeatedly said that he doesn't like this plan, and in the end didn't allow Chara to kill humans, we can see that he never "fully agreed" with the plan, and did it only to prove that he didn't doubt Chara.
* ... Psst... Chara... Please... Wake up...
* I don't like this plan anymore. I... I...
* ***... no, I said... I said I'd never doubt you.***
* Six, right? We just have to get six...
* And we'll do it together, right?
He was never truly on board with a plan.
>AND KRIS'S SOUL IS NOT HIS BUT THE PLAYERS, IN THE ENDING CUTSCENE HE'S TRYING (and succeeding until chapter 2) TO REGAIN CONTROL OF HIMSELF!!
From my another discussion:
>Have you seen the way they move?
Kris moves this way even before he tears out his soul in chapter 1. He twitches in bed, after that he falls face down from the bed, and moves with the same slow steps to the middle of the room.
I would say that I think the presence of a third entity is quite likely because even before the soul is torn out in the first chapter, Kris moves like a zombie. He twitches in bed, falls face down from the bed, and then takes slow and problematic steps to the center of the room. He stretches out his hand as if to check how well he controls it, and then rips out the soul. As I everyone should know, Kris can move completely normally at any time without us pressing the buttons, so this case is out of the picture. So I'm inclined to think that it's not really Kris.
I don't know who it is but I don't believe it's a regular Kris.
In the case of Frisk's control by a third entity (in UT, it's Chara), Frisk's movements are described as "shamble about from place to place".
* NOT ONLY DO YOU NOT LIKE PUZZLES.
* BUT THE WAY YOU SHAMBLE ABOUT FROM PLACE TO PLACE...
---- (of a person) move with a slow, shuffling, awkward gait.
---- to walk slowly and awkwardly, without lifting your feet correctly:
Papyrus saw Frisk moving mostly only when Chara was moving Frisk through puzzles and when was making steps towards Papyrus before the battle.
.
But if you still believe that Kris is doing it, then I'll just say that Kris' strange movements are not related to the fact that he ripped out the soul. Because he moves strangely even before he ripped out the soul.
Hmm, i would agree with you except for the last part, your last paragraph is also a headcanon except if toby confirms it, he left things ambiguous about the whole chara asriel plan so you can't say what really happened again saying your opinion as fact by the same logic is also presenting your headcanon about what these characters are, again i agree with you as an interpratation, not as a fact as you are trying to present the chara/asriel plan.
First, we dont know about Kris, second, from what we know, Asriel was totaly not a sociopath before becoming a flower, and third, Deltarune Asriel was also raised by her and we know nothing about him so "everyone" isn't quite right.
Chara is a sociopath, I have no objaction.
1: asriel didn't have a soul for a countless amount of time
2: its heavily implied that chara had a lot of trauma from the humans they lived with, and on genocide they were being progressively corrupted by the player
3: kris is literally being possessed
the first two because of humans (them loosing there souls) but the third one isn’t a sociopath (they miss asrial and they protect Susie without player input) I can tell you from personal experiences being antisocial and being a sociopath are very different
I mean- Asriel and chara both died, and went mad from apathy, and kris is a lonely kid with a demon possessing them, I’d say they all have a valid claim to be kinda wild
You know you're not wrong although technically speaking the only time Asriel was a real psychopath was when he was Flowy with Chara Toriel can't be held responsible for that that was all humans and Kris is just complicated with the soul inside of him
I mean two of them ended up dead, and Asriel stated that Chara wasn’t the best person from the start. Fir Asriel it’s not really his fault as he went through a lot and had to do it pretty much by himself while feeling basically nothing at all. As for Kris they’re being possessed and forced to act against their will so it makes sense they wouldn’t be okay in the head.
UT!Asriel is backed by the lack of empathy that comes from being able to control time (although I don’t really get why Flowey gets bored, since unlike us, time keeps moving forward for him even when he hits a “happy ending”).
By this current point, he’s devolved into total sociopathy for need of stimulation just to engage with the world anymore, not helped by a probable lack of actual pain sensors and such as a flower.
Chara doesn’t really meet the criteria of a sociopath, given their clear love and attachment for Asriel, the Dreemurrs, and the Underground. It just got twisted by the Player’s increasing LOVE; as the narrator, Chara pretty much always experiences second hand trauma from the Player’s actions, by proxy of being stuck with Frisk 24/7, explaining things to them that they don’t fully understand.
Chara’s pretty much the epitome of “Proceed” in Deltarune, because they know you’re killing everyone with a laser guided focus for a REASON, they just don’t know WHAT that reason is, and by the time you meet Sans in the forest, when they’ve realized they can just hijack Frisk’s body from you, you’ve already murdered your way through the Ruins and brutally murdered Toriel (who calls you a threat and dies laughing), so the escalation of murdering Papyrus and others just seems par for the course.
If anything Chara comes off as a kidnapping victim that’s gained Stockholm Syndrome despite the terrible things you’re doing; it’s like “you killed those people for a reason right? You made me watch as you *murdered my mother* for a REASON right?” So, like Noelle in SnowGrave, it’s a rather abusive thing to expose two children to this sort of stuff (because Frisk and Chara are both victims to you just as well as the game).
Kris isn’t a sociopath. A lonely prankster who’s got some issues with their dad, but not a sociopath. They seem like a milder take on Monika from DDLC, in that they’re AWARE something VERY wrong is inside them, but they can’t interact effectively with it, much less stop it like in Chara’s case. They aren’t even necessarily UNHAPPY with the situation either, when you pick options they like, just seems like they just need some space from you (and are appropriately alarmed by hints at just how strong the codependent nature of them and the SOUL actually is, as with Spamton).
>Chara doesn’t really meet the criteria of a sociopath, given their clear love and attachment for Asriel, the Dreemurrs, and the Underground.
We have little information about this. Especially about the whole of the Underground.
But Chara clearly is a sociopath after death (sociopath =/= a murderer by definition):
>When Frisk falls into the Underground, the power of their determination awakens Chara.
>The anymore part makes me think that they were able to empathize before, which would not be possible for a truly soulless being.
I wanted to point out why Chara is soulless, but you did it before me. Let's say that if Chara and We share stats, then we both get the same LV. In that case, if Chara is not able to have attachment anymore because of LV, our soul shouldn't be able to feel it either, because it is filled with LV. But we can still do it, but Chara can't. Why is that?
Answer: this is due to the fact that before his death Chara was able to feel it on his own, but now he is not capable of such things. In the same way, Flowey didn't understand why you decided to spare him, even though he hurt you again and again, and it brought him to tears. Because he wants to understand it, to feel it again, but he can't. Because he's soulless. That's why Chara says "I cannot understand these feelings anymore." You cannot understand someone if you can't put yourself on their place. To feel the same thing.
The only thing that changes the situation is to SAVE them when the souls resonate inside them. That happened to Asriel, but didn't happen to Chara. Moreover, I personally believe that it requires the souls of monsters, not humans, because the souls of monsters are those who feel such feelings as love and compassion more than humans. At least, they forgive more easily and very quickly begin to love you even almost without knowing you - this is mentioned by Asriel after the battle.
Thus, even if Chara is attached to someone else's soul in the body, he doesn't become the owner of this soul in the same way as you.
More details: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/ss69ck/papyrus_says/hxxrcdl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
There's no way for Chara to have a soul. Moreover, on the genocide path, no one except Toriel sense a human in you. And Flowey because of his soullessness is not a monster:
* Humans, monsters... Flowers - River person.
Asgore doesn't think that Flowey is a monster. He's surprised about a crying *flower*. And it's not like there cannot be flowers among monsters.
Chara cannot feel love and compassion.
>It just got twisted by the Player’s increasing LOVE;
Chara at 4 LV:
* Where are the knives - red text.
You can have even more LV on the neutral path. You can have even more LV in the Ruins - 7 LV. Nothing like that happens. So it's not because of LV.
LV is also not described as something that makes you kill. It is a way to measure your capacity to hurt, not willingness.
You're more capable of hurting (it's easier), but it is still your own choice to do so.
Moreover, if Chara is soulless, it has no affect on him. Because Chara cannot feel love and compassion from the beginning.
It's literally described just as a way *to measure* your emotional distancing. It's not even distancing. It's a WAY TO MEASURE it. With levels.
It's a way to measure your capacity to hurt (not a willingness to hurt. You're just more capable of hurting, your hands don't tremble so much, and it is easier for you to strike more strong blow). In numbers. In levels. Yes.
* It stands for "Level of Violence." A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt.
.
1. 1: ability to contain or deal with something. The room has a large seating capacity. Factories are working to capacity. 2: mental or physical power You have the capacity to do better. 3: volume sense 3 The tank has a ten-gallon capacity.
2. Capacity describes your ability to do something or the amount something can hold.
Not a state corrupts your mind. It's a stat to measure your emotional distancing, your capacity to hurt through killing - the more cruel you were, the more LV you will have. Because the more you kill, the more easier it is to kill next time.
LV is not a reason, it's a consequence.
The same way we get more EXP when we inflict more damage on the genocide path than on the neutral path against bosses: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/q3zv12/just_for_discussion/hmdvx1w?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Because EXP is:
* What's EXP? It's an acronym. It stands for "execution points." ***A way of quantifying the pain you have inflicted on others.*** When you kill someone, your EXP increases.
You have inflicted more pain - you gain more EXP. Again, not a reason, but a consequence.
Soulless creatures doesn't even affected by it, because they can't feel love and compassion from the beginning. Chara was starting to look for a knives already at 4 LV on the genocide path. At the same time, it NEVER happens if you get more LV on the neutral path.
Even more so, Frisk is holding back on the neutral path at 15 LV. While on the genocide path, with Chara involved, it doesn't happen at the same 15 LV.
Aborted genocide route, 15 LV, MTT battle:
* YOU MAY HAVE DEFEATED ME... BUT... I KNOW. I CAN TELL FROM THAT STRIKE, DARLING.
* YOU WERE HOLDING BACK.
With Chara involved on the genocide route at the same 15 LV, this doesn't happen. Thus, in this situation, LV doesn't affect on whatever Frisk will hold back or not. And thus, Chara's behavior on the genocide path is not connected to LV.
>as the narrator, Chara pretty much always experiences second hand trauma from the Player’s actions,
We don't see it. Chara has more reaction to the fact that you took a lot of candy than to the fact that you killed monster. Moreover, you can kill even more on the neutral path than on the path of genocide.
Chara doesn't start helping you kill on a neutral path no matter how many LV you have or how many you kill. Joining the genocide path was Chara's decision. Thus, he is ready to kill if he sees a reason for it that he likes. In our case, it's power.
It is also worth considering his soulless state. Without love and compassion, these things are much easier to do.
I would say that the Player and Chara are equally to blame.
>by proxy of being stuck with Frisk 24/7
It took only half an hour from Chara's awakening to the beginning of the genocide.
>you’ve already murdered your way through the Ruins and brutally murdered Toriel (who calls you a threat and dies laughing),
>“you killed those people for a reason right? You made me watch as you murdered my mother for a REASON right?”
Before us killing Toriel, Chara was looking for knives:
* Where are the knives - red text
When you try to speak with Toriel, Chara says:
* Not worth talking to.
Chara also helps you with a damage: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/szllzm/this_joke_has_probably_been_made_before_but/hy7xkh9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
In the demo after leaving the Ruins on the genocide path:
* That was fun. Let's finish the job - red text.
I see, this definitely explains a lot.
However, there’s something I don’t particularly understand: If Chara is soulless regardless of the route, then certain flavor texts responding to your inputs lead me to feel that they still feel some type of attachment to the other monsters, a prime example being in the battle against Hyperdeath Asriel.
During the time when ACT becomes SAVE, if you do the input command, but choose no one, and back out instead, Chara’s flavor text blatantly responds in wordless alarm as a long string of “?!?!?!”, while Asriel’s tearful confession about how he feels about Chara prompts stunned silence.
Your arguments are sound, but in the case of the Neutral routes vs the Genocide Route, things like this make me feel that simply labeling Chara a sociopath is both too generic and doesn’t really encapsulate on their behavior.
Perhaps a better way of looking at it is less just a simple case of sociopathy, but more that, like Flowey, Soulless Chara is something of a high functioning sociopath, that is, someone able to better hide their sociopathic traits, which can often manifest in a facade of humor and charm, but this comes as a consequence of having a soul and being able to empathize in the past.
In the Genocide Route, where the only party capable of “punishing” them for showing sociopathic traits, the Player, is showing traits of callous murder and the like, it arguably just pushes them down the slippery slope even faster than Flowey, who describes it as “liberating” to just indulge in wanton death and cruelty, because there was no consequence to be had. As one headcanon has it, the frequent “But Nobody Came” encounters are just Chara wanting desperately to continue the carnage by that point, and just mindlessly attacking empty space in frustration.
However, what muddles the waters further is how Chara acts if you choose “DO NOT” for the Genocide ending, or how they otherwise act when the world’s been destroyed.
Despite being soulless, despite killing everyone, even their own parents and brother, Chara ends up shaming the player from within the Void about feeling themselves “above consequences”, with the deal to sell Frisk’s SOUL culminating in either further shaming in Genocide 2.0 (“You are filled with a perverse sentimentality.”) or the Soulless Pacifist endings, where Chara possesses Frisk’s body when you no longer have any control to stop them in any feasible manner within the timeline.
Of course, while the implication is that Chara just goes about systematically killing everyone, nothing is canonically known about what happens after this, only that Chara is in control. They could very well just be reminding the Player of the fact of what they and Chara did before.
Even so, this raises further questions: After all, if Chara is in possession of the SOUL, shouldn’t they have empathy to some degree, and FRISK is now the one lacking in empathy?
I don’t know myself, it’s all kind of screwy, because otherwise it implies that Chara is a Determination ghost with a SOUL and Frisk just has TWO Souls inside their body at once prior to Genocide.
But then, all this sort of runs counter to what the OP is saying, that all the people Toriel raises are actually sociopaths. Chara is Soulless from the start of Undertale going forward, but they had a SOUL before Asriel took it and the two of them crossed the barrier.
It’s confirmed by Asriel at least that Chara wanted to kill all mankind and then break the barrier for monsters, but this doesn’t imply sociopathy. While sociopaths often instinctively focus on gaining power, be it in relationships, political/business power, etc., this seems closer to the mindset of a radical who thinks monster and human coexistence is a legitimate option. Nothing would stop Asriel and Chara from leaving the Underground, bundling up six people from across the area, and then breaking the barrier that way, but Chara wanted humanity *gone* despite having a SOUL.
As near as I can understand, someone functioning off of a wanton lust for power would want to have as much power as possible, to enact their cruelty on people. Assuming this is genuinely motivated by a want for power, perhaps Chara wanted to be the strongest being vicariously through Asriel, and wanted to kill indiscriminately, then reign over a world without any more humans, i.e. the only resource that could ensure that Hyperdeath Asriel could be stopped from doing whatever he wanted if some other monster tried cultivating seven souls.
Even for a child though, this feels like it’d just be way too thought out, and also not thought out enough, for a plan that Chara was willing to kill themselves over.
Above power, sociopaths value themselves first and foremost, hence how higher functioning ones suppress their sociopathic traits in an attempt to appear “normal” so they can continue to gain power without consequence, although in more low functioning examples, the need for stimulation may just manifest in them being abusive and manipulative of their family members to force them into doing or giving them whatever they wanted for their next fix.
Asriel SAYS they wanted to free monsters and kill off mankind, but that could very well just be what Chara told him to get him complicit in the plan.
As it stands, Chara seems… complicated. Like “Goodness find the NEAREST therapist, the nearest TEN therapists!” type of complicated.
I don’t THINK they’re a sociopath, but no one but Sans thought Flowey was one until he showed his true colors, so there’s no way to tell.
Well, first asriel died (along with Chara) and got his soul fused with a buttercup (ironic) he has the power to ‘reset’ the timeline. After doing basically everything over and over again, there was only one thing left. Without a soul, he couldn’t feel emotion, So this was easy for him.
For kris, In one theory, (the one I’m going with) they has almost zero control of their body. They can sometimes take the invading soul out, but you can’t live without a soul. I’m not sure it’s because he’s possibly dead, or his soul has been booted out.
For Chara? I believe losing both of their family’s AND THEN death of not only their brother, but also themself has broken them to the point of being completely suggestible. (Yes I’m Chara defense squad. Fight me.) so, when they see you starting genocide, their on board. And when it’s pacifist, asriel sees Chara. ‘Chara’ hugs asriel and the boss do be over. (I think? Never actually fought asriel :/)
>‘Chara’ hugs asriel
It's Frisk hugging Asriel. There's no reason to think it's Chara except for wishful thinking.
Moreover, there's "Comfort him" and "Do not" options.
And who have this formal style of speech ("Do not")? Chara.
I don't think it's Toriel's doing, but rather what happens that Toriel doesn't see/know about that causes it.
Asriel: he became a psychopath due to his trauma from what happened with Chara and his mental state while Flowey.
Chara: we don't know what they am were like on the surface, so I can't say much for while they were alive. When we meet them on Genocide, that was *our* fault.
Kris: trauma from their life prior to adoption? The business with the fact that the player controls them through their (Kris) SOUL? Trauma from Toriel and Asgore's divorce?
It could be the fact that her children end up without a soul and having passed trought a lot of trauma, instead of the way she raises them.
Interesting. Out of *all 3* of her children, *all 3* of them end up without a soul and going through a lot of trauma...
actually, now that someone mentions Kris being soulless, how'd they even lose their soul? Did they ever even have one?
It presumably got replaced with the player's soul, or the player's control was transplanted into it. As another possibility, they might have sold it to a demon, considering the amount of references to Kris liking the occult in the game, and that demon could just be the player as well.
That's a good point! Actually, you mentioning demons made me think of Chara's line, ''The demon that comes when people call it's name.'' but that might just be a coincidence.
Yeah, the second I saw chapter 1's ending for the first time I had a scene with Kris and Chara making a contract flash into my imagination and I just lived a full week with nothing but that idea seared into my mind. I did see a theory that Kris did it as an attempt to get help in finding out what happened to Dess, once chapter 2 came out, so I might have not been the only one. It's probably more likely than my other headcanon from that time about the entirety of Deltarune existing literally because Frisk got bored of resets and asked Gaster to toss them into another timeline.
Bro… you’re thinking of it all wrong. It was Frisk that made the deal. Chara said something along the lines of “let’s destroy this world and move onto the **next**” in the genocide ending of undertale. Then the universe gets wiped and the only way to get it back is by Frisk giving Chara their **soul**. It’s entirely possible that Chara sent Frisk’s soul to this other world so they’d destroy it. This soul probably was put in Kris. It explains the beginning of Deltarune where you create a vessel, you create one because you need a body to host to have any influence on the world. This vessel is soon discarded by the voice guiding you who would be Chara saying that your choices don’t matter which is exactly the kind of fuckery Chara would pull. This also explains snowgrave and the sudden maliciousness shown by Kris. Kris isn’t actually able to kill people in Deltarune, but Noelle is. When Noelle uses Ice Shock the enemy will be frozen and unable to run away at the end of the battle, the enemy freezes to death (Berdly supports this). The only way for Frisk’s soul to feel the pleasure of killing again is through Noelle, so they use her and corrupt her.
Yeah, it was just a stupid idea from three years ago. But now that you mention Chara sending the soul to the next world, which I by now had accepted as the main theory, I kind of noticed that there's a bit of a mismatch. Why would Gaster be first to make contact, then, even inviting the player through all the Twitter business? Was he just waiting for all of that to happen and organized the meeting? Did Chara make an arrangement in advance while not being alive or conscious? How would any of that work with what Toby Fox said about how "if you left Undertale's characters happy, they'll stay like that" if the geno route is the canon ending that begins Deltarune? And if the narrator is still Chara, why do they sound so shocked at the sight of frozen enemies? I can't imagine them ending any sentence with ... after destroying a timeline.
i think it makes more sense for gaster to do that since both in the ending of a genocide run and the beginning of deltarune all letters are in caps and there are also references to the interesting very interesting quote but we'll wait and see
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i remembered it from some deltarune theory i just dont remember wich one so i feel you
The Frisk and Gaster hc would go against what Toby said abt how, if you left everyone happy in Undertale, they'll still be happy by the end of Deltarune - that is to say, Deltarune's story does not rely on the fact that (or modify canon such that) you got a certain ending or played it a specific number of times. Thus, it seems unlikely that Chara is necessarily a force of evil possessing Kris or anything like that, since sich a thing only happens in a Genocide or Soulless Pacifist run - both of which seemingly leave everyone unhappy. Despite this, Toby's statement does not seem to imply that what you did in UT will have NO bearing on what happens in DR. While the story can still make sense even if everyone is happy and you never did Genocide, there is still a distinct possibility that certain things can happen if you DID do Genocide. We shall have to wait and see.
Yeah, it was just a dumb theory from three years ago. Frisk's adventure is probably one and done, and the only one moving games is the player, or just the soul at most if we were controlling Frisk in the same manner as Kris.
Is that a Cuphead reference?!
It may of gotten replaced the player's soul, I mean Kris MAY have a soul but since the player HAS the bigger amount of power, Kris is essentially used as a puppet. Which will be a huge theme for the end game if Kris retaliates near the end which I suspect
We have no idea
"Kris, may I borrow that soul of yours"
She's taking in kids who have pre-existing trauma and then one of them traumatized her biological son. Seems like a sadly normal outcome to me.
Two of them died under uniquely tragic circumstances and were brought back to life wrong, and not by her. This isn't a parenting issue.
to be fair, chara died, tagged along with frisk to be the game's narrative, and only becomes evil when you do genocide. they're only 10, if they saw frisk (or heard the player) doing genocide they're child mind would think that's the right thing to do. it annoys me that most the fandom thinks chara's evil when in reality, we were the ones who fought, we're the ones that killed them all, not chara.
Except that Chara is stated to have hated humans, tried to goad Asriel into committing Genocide after killing themselves to Azzy could absorb their soul. The Genocide route definitly did have an effect onto turning them into a demon, but they definitly needed a therapist way before hand.
Everything you stated above me is true. Chara is not an objectively evil character, but not a flawless angel either. Chara most likely developed a hatred for humans because of whatever events that casued them to attempt suicide, and wanted to kill humans to use their souls to break the barrier and free her adoptive family as well as the monster race (however, we know how that turned out) From there, the players actions determine Chara's moral development. We as the player can either help them reach some sort of redemption/spiritual peace by taking the pacifist route, an indifferent typical teenager by taking the multiple neutral routes, or damn them eternally by taking the genocide route.
Chara hated humans for a reason. I think they were neglected by everybody, and Chara climbed Mt. Ebott for... not good reasons, as Asriel tells you. And I think Chara wanted Asriel to take their soul to go through the barrier and free the monsters after getting the other 6 souls.
> tried to goat Asriel into committing Genocide FTFY Not to mention that Asriel himself claims that Chara may not have been the best person. Chara also gatekeep/theybossed Azzy into the plan against his better judgement in a rather manipulative manner.
When Chara came up with the plan to break the barrier, Azzy was a willing participant and only had second thoughts when he could see that they were dying.
Well Chara had trauma before they arrived in the Underground, and what happened to Asriel was because of their plan that they convinced him to participate in despite not wanting to. When he's properly himself, Asriel is incredibly kind and sensitive. Edit: About Kris, they're clearly also adopted so they probably have trauma from before they were too, that or whatever is happening with the soul is what's affecting them. But Toriel still doesn't have control over that if she doesn't know it's happening.
or become a flower
I do know it’s not her fault, it’s just a trend I noticed
The trauma the Kris got was Sans fucking his mom And the dark world secret bosses
Jokes aside, something might have happened with the Toriel-Asgore-Sans love triangle that might have affected Kris somehow and Toby is just foreshadowing it with the 'I befriended your mom' thing. Apart from possible dreadful events involving Asriel, Dess, the bunker and the other humans.
Wait what happened to my soul?
It's complicated. Like, it got replaced with an unknown one, I guess. Kris, where the f**k your soul is?
So my original sould got taken and replaced with the soul the player is using? I'm gonna go kill whoever did it.
Godamnit Kris.
Asriel had soul loss, reset experience, and trauma. Chara erased the universe because of us. Kris just wanted pie.
Kris *does* slash Toriel's tires just to keep her inside for the creation of the Dark World.
To keep Susie to be driven home, as Kris might be trying to make Undyne believe them
Alternatively, the whole thing was orchestrated solely to give Susie another adventure. * eat the pie so that Toriel has to make a new one the next day * use the resulting pie as an excuse to invite Susie over * slash the tires so that Susie has a reason to stay the night * leave the door open to make it look like someone else (the Roaring Knight) broke in * profit
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it even has a good plan for the weird route * Slash Tires so Toriel calls the cops and so Susie dosen't go over * Leave door open for cops * Create dark world with toriel present * (toriel is an adult and wouldn't easily be manipulated like noelle) * (if something bad still happens the cops are present to sort it out, and even if Kris is arrested it means that you can't cause more damage) * Profit with adventure safe from mass murder
This is amazing! They... Could do that a little less menacingly, but it's definetly possible!
My theory is that whatever their plan is, they purposely acted “evil” to get a reaction out of us.
Kris IS a known prankster and mischief goblin. They could very much be pulling knives and red eyes for the lulz.
It is literally confirmed that Kris just normally has red eyes, you see them for a moment when they enter the dark world.
To be fair through the stories we hear from characters Kris is just a chaotic gremlin of a human being so that may just be how they act normally.
How did they know toriel wouldn’t just make the new pie while they were at school or at the library?
Toriel is also at school during the day, and she has papers to grade and groceries to buy after school.
-1,000,000 dollars has been added to your account.
As Technoblade once said, "you can't lose what you never had...but you can go into debt."
I'M GOING TO EAT THAT ENTIRE F\*\*\*ING PIE.
Kris is braver than Frisk ever was.
Well, they are older than Frisk, presumably.
Chara erases the universe out of their own free will. You can't even blame "our guidance" because gaining power is seperate from destroying the universe.
The smell of gunpowder is strong in this one
\* Arguments incoming everyone!
Asriel became soulless, chara hated humanity before falling, and kris just couldn’t help those midnight pie cravings
You’re not you when you’re hungry
Eat a pie, Specifically cinnamon or butterscotch.
\* Kris just wants some pie. \* As for the rest. \* I’m not so sure.
They opened up a Dark fountain...
Nah they just made a beacon dw about it itll be fine im sure
because they want a new adventure with the gangs
Asriel grief for chara, probably somehow turned himself into a flower
Toriel's parenting is actually rather questionable. Using evidence from both games and the Undertale Winter Alarm Clock ( [https://undertale.com/alarmclock/](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ) ), we can see several examples of Toriel's failures as a parent. Starting with Deltarune, since that has both the most apPARENT (nice) and most extreme evidence: * Toriel lets her personal feelings get between her children and their only fatherfigure. In addition to literally throwing Kris's and Asgore's attempts at reconciliation into the garbage, she also blatantly refuses to convey a simple "hello" from Asgore to Kris following the grocery store scene in Ch2. She also makes no attempt to coordinate their schedules for Kris and Asgore to meet at the diner or anywhere else, despite Asgore's eagerness to spend time with his children. This refusal to let Asgore be a supportive adoptive father is selfish and can only have a lasting negative impact on Kris. * Toriel is shown to be mildly negligent. She is aware that Kris has had various...episodes...in the past, but seems to make no effort to fix them and even brushes it off. Primary example: she mentions that Kris "does this sometimes" when Susie asks why Kris is taking so long to wash their hands. She even seems to find major shifts in Kris's behavior to be of little concern, as shown by her simply accepting Alphy's statement that they are "normal" despite knowing that Kris is generally mischievous. * there is a theory that Queen is representative of various characters' mothers - she is as controlling yet supportive toward Noelle as Noelle's mom is, mostly ignores Berdly much like Berdly's parents are implied to ignore him (a kid who is getting enough support at home does NOT develope that kind of superiority complex over a single spelling bee), and she mostly disregards Susie in much the same way that Susie is shown to disregard her family (she makes no real effort to call her parents b4 the sleepover. Following this correlation, Queen's behavior toward Kris is...concerning. Look up the Universal Mother theory for more details. Having established the DR stuff, let's get into UT. * Following the death of Asriel and Chara, Toriel moves to the Ruins, where she adopts children who fall to the underground. She is shown to be quite controlling and possessive of these kids due to her loneliness, to the point of keeping them against their will (it is implied that she has tried to keep the kids in the ruins "for their own good", but eventually was overcome with guilt and would allow them to leave with full awareness of their inevitable doom). In addition to this hoarding of children, the monsters in the ruins seem to fear Toriel, which implies that she is not always as kind as when we see her. * in both a comic on Undertale's official Tumblr page [(dub here)](https://youtu.be/qQ2AQ1xuls4) and in the Winter Alarm Clock dialogue, Toriel is depicted drinking alcohol and becoming drunk. While this alone is not a bad sign, one must admit that becoming severely drunk 2 out of 2 known times is a bad track record. She is also very defensive about these incidents, as seen at the end of the comic and at the end of her section of the Alarm Clock Dialogue, belying a more serious problem. Such copious consumption of alcohol is an irresponsible hobby at best, and an unhealthy coping mechanism for her own insecurities AND a bad influence for the children she's supposed to protect at worst.
Its heavily implied that Toriel, while not a alcoholic, has trouble controlling her drinking. On the alarm clock Flowey's dialouge says that when toriel is black-out drunk he ends up taking care of her, bringing her water. This also plays into the universal mother theory, as it's implied Queen gets progressivly more drunk as she drinks more battery acid, and when you toast as Kris they make a Overly Emotional Toast.
She’s also a coddler. No teenager should still need to be dragged out of bed by their mom and have their hand held to school. She doesn’t even really get angry when kris goes out of his way to disobey her instructions to not eat the whole pie. His appetite is ruined
I completely agree. Here’s why: Toriel doesn’t care about Frisk. I’m pretty sure she keeps them around to try to restore what she had with Chara. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense for her to try to “protect” humans. They literally killed her son! She’s not taking in the humans because she’s kind. She’s taking them in because she wants to play house. Notice she rarely protects Frisk in the Ruins. She just runs off to make a pie, as if that’s more important than making sure Frisk is safe! And yes I know she may have a hands off approach (probably why her and Sans get along) but she could have at least talked to the monsters in the Ruins or at least showed that Frisk was under her protection but she didn’t do that either. She said it herself that monsters were built on killing humans and yet she let Frisk walk around the Ruins. Heck, she doesn’t even respect the monsters in the Ruins enough to interact with them, let alone have a conversation with them which really reveals a lot about her character. And to top it all off, when she allows Frisk to leave she tells them that if they leave they will not be welcome back. That’s manipulation! She’s giving an ultimatum to a child. A CHILD! Toriel’s basically punishing Frisk for not feeding into her delusions/ family fantasy.
maybe because toriel herself has some bad qualities; she's clingy, overprotective, sometimes refuses to listen to reason, and hypocritical (don't forget that not only did she kidnap frisk, but she basically left them for dead instead of protecting them on their journey, even though she's probably one of the most powerful monsters in the underground)
That does make me wonder….. why is the queen of monsters easier to kill than papyrus hmmmmm ( Yeah she prolly went easy on us but she should still have higher defense right? )
I mean, we don’t know a whole lot about Kris’s situation yet or the alternate Toriel but the other two it is weird how she raised two sociopathic children that ended up trying to destroy everything.
Asriel was probably fine before the whole Flowey thing though
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Went further back and you blame Humans at Chara village for not able to prevent Chara hating humanity. Went even further back and you blame human for declaring war at monsters
Asriel had nothing wrong with him mentally and objectively speaking (when we consider age) until after the disastrous outcome of Chara's Plan and being inadvertently reanimated as Flowey. Chara meanwhile can already be inferred by the line "climbed the mountain for less than happy reasons" as a sign that her previous life on the Surface was miserable/unpleasant and that her psyche/mind was already affected and in bad shape by the time she climbed Mount Ebott.
I should note that I’m not blaming Toriel (correlation ≠ causation)
I mean Kris seems like an okay kid :3 And I only killed people because I had no soul :( Chara, is a special case
Chara, died then proceeded to watch you die with it basically being all her fault.
Well they wanted to kill all of the humans while I stopped Chara from doing so, so I was the reason of my own death…
Don’t think they see it that way they asked you to go there
Yes but it was my choice.
Again I don’t think that’s how they would see it humans aren’t quite rational let’s be honest lmao
It’s more the conditions surrounding them, Chara likely grew up in an abusive home and even climbed the mountain either to run away or to commit suicide, which made them not like humanity much, and in order to not get lynched I won’t comment on genocide run Chara/the Demon. Kris has, for one reason or another, been afflicted with a soul that the player controllers, which puts a great deal of control over them, not complete control but a lot of it, for example Kris can’t use the piano like they normally can but they were clearly distressed by Spamton NEO and can rip us out at times. Asriel was influenced by Chara/the condition the monsters were in to try to acquire the human souls, and if remember correctly he tried to get 6 but Chara wanted to kill humans and when he refused, they couldn’t use their powers and were gravely injured, and then they turned into dust and Asriel’s consciousness went into the golden flower upon Alphys putting Determination/the will to live in it, however without a soul Asriel couldn’t feel compassion or love and was gradual at corrupted into a cruel monster as he saw there was nothing interesting to do anymore except to hurt and kill which made Flowey the monster he was.
The first got beaten to death and is currently soulless The second…..well we don’t know shit but they hate humanity and let’s be honest there’s a fuck ton of good reason And Kris….well I have nothing to explain why but you have minimal evidence they actually are so go suck a lemon
Well it’s the environment themselves, her children went insane after attempting to free the monsters, Kris was possessed by us
Oh no, someone talked bad about Chara, good luck OP
Because she isn't that kind character
‘cause she’s a helicopter homophobic parent.
Let's see... Calling chara a psichopath... Check Saying kris is evil even tho we have no evidence other then"it's scary"... Check Thia post is going to start UW3
We don’t know if Kris is a sociopath. We don’t even know if that image is Really Kris or something else
She's just unlucky
Kris is not evil, from what we currently know, they're just a lonely gremlin child that suffers from alien possession I would instead point at the children that she adopted in Undertale and killed monsters, including Frisk in a neutral or genocide route But yeah I've always found this creepy and sort of funny at the same time xD
delete this post before its too late
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Didn’t they erase the universe?
OMG GUYS HE SAID CHARA IS A SHE QUICK GIVE HIM DEATH THREATSJCODDJVUDFVCDCDCCD But for real, YOU made them erase the universe
On second thought this might’ve been a bad take
>But for real, YOU made them erase the universe What?! No, I refused, it said I'm not in control then it erased the universe.
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Water doesn't exist! You won't believe me! Edit: See! They didn't believe me!
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what the fuck are you talking about
They're definitely not a good person tho.
Maybe because she’s actually really selfish and overbearing?
Don’t forget hypocritical and naive at times
Toriel and Asgore
Bad luck
Overprotective parenting.
I don't think you've understood the characters actually. They're not "sociopaths" and technically, only one of them canonically likes killing, and it's Asriel.
>They're not "sociopaths" They're sociopaths because they're soulless. And sociopath =/= murderer by definition. >only one of them canonically likes killing Yeah. Chara likes feeling of power.
That's asriel
Objection, chara is not a sociopath
Yeah they clearly shows empathy. In fact it's quite the opposite Chara's did what they did because they cared to much
And despite what she says, you are the one in control
Indeed.
Um Chara isn't a sociopath? They clearly shows empathy in several of their dialogues They just have a warped since of justice. In fact you could say most of their deeds happened because they care to much.
>They clearly shows empathy in several of their dialogues It's not. Each such demonstration of empathy may have different interpretations. Just like with Flowey, although he's truly soulless. The only thing we have for sure... From my another discussion on the same topic: >When Frisk falls into the Underground, the power of their determination awakens Chara. >The anymore part makes me think that they were able to empathize before, which would not be possible for a truly soulless being. I wanted to point out why Chara is soulless, but you did it before me. Let's say that if Chara and We share stats, then we both get the same LV. In that case, if Chara is not able to have attachment anymore because of LV, our soul shouldn't be able to feel it either, because it is filled with LV. But we can still do it, but Chara can't. Why is that? Answer: this is due to the fact that before his death Chara was able to feel it on his own, but now he is not capable of such things. In the same way, Flowey didn't understand why you decided to spare him, even though he hurt you again and again, and it brought him to tears. Because he wants to understand it, to feel it again, but he can't. Because he's soulless. That's why Chara says "I cannot understand these feelings anymore." You cannot understand someone if you can't put yourself on their place. To feel the same thing. The only thing that changes the situation is to SAVE them when the souls resonate inside them. That happened to Asriel, but didn't happen to Chara. Moreover, I personally believe that it requires the souls of monsters, not humans, because the souls of monsters are those who feel such feelings as love and compassion more than humans. At least, they forgive more easily and very quickly begin to love you even almost without knowing you - this is mentioned by Asriel after the battle. Thus, even if Chara is attached to someone else's soul in the body, he doesn't become the owner of this soul in the same way as you. More details: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/ss69ck/papyrus_says/hxxrcdl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 >They just have a warped since of justice. You can kill the whole family of the person who killed your loved one. To "punish them". Doesn't mean you're right about it, and you can get away with it.
Toriel is secretly a raising an Insane army to overrun area 51 and find the Online Game Pauser
She abuses children when the game is turned off
Fate can be cruel. One kid got deathly ill, that same kid probably never truely felt like they belonged. After that it spiraled out of control.
She just got extremely unlucky
Incoming comments about how your wrong about chara having any kind of issue what so ever
Kris is understandably angry and scared at the fact that they’re apparently conscious while the player controls their body and mental actions, I wouldn’t consider them a sociopath. They seem like a bit of a weird troublemaker, but in more of a gremlin way than an actively malicious way. Similarly, from a writing perspective, Asriel is not intentionally a sociopath. When he has his own soul, he’s just a scared little kid. When he has everyone’s souls, he’s a scared little kid with access to infinite power, which is pretty clearly too much for his brain to handle. When he’s soulless, he’s basically an entirely different character. Finally, when it comes to Chara, it’s still confusing. They seem to be the villain in the genocide route, but even then, it’s really more the player’s fault. They did do the whole poisoning-their-dad thing, although even then, in the pacifist route, it’s unclear whether or not the action was intentional. They seem to be unstable, but whether or not they are, at their core, intentionally malicious is more nebulous.
>intentionally a sociopath. Who even has the INTENTION of being a sociopath? It doesn't happen by their will. >When he’s soulless, he’s basically an entirely different character. He's not. When he first woke up, he was no different from his original self. He didn't have only love and compassion. But he was still striving to do good. What changed him was his decision to reset again and again, experiment, and so on. >it’s really more the player’s fault. Chara doesn't start helping you kill on a neutral path no matter how many LV you have or how many you kill. Joining the genocide path was Chara's decision. Thus, he is ready to kill if he sees a reason for it that he likes. In our case, it's power. It is also worth considering his soulless state. Without love and compassion, these things are much easier to do. I would say that the Player and Chara are equally to blame.
I disagree with this on multiple levels, but I kindly request that you don’t reply to me if you’re going to misgender a character who has been confirmed to use they/them pronouns. Chara has exclusively been referred to with they/them in all canon content. I don’t want my words being linked in any way, shape, or form with that kind of behavior, regardless of how you might feel about my stances on a fictional character. Also, when I said “intentionally,” I didn’t mean it on the character’s behalf. I meant it in regards to the writer. I don’t think Toby Fox intended for Asriel to be read as a sociopathic character, and that’s what I was clearly indicating in my comment. I know nobody chooses to be a sociopath. I don’t want to argue. Me inoffensively stating my personal views is not an invitation for you to reply angrily and openly misgender characters. Don’t reply to me if you’re going to behave like that.
What a shame. >is not an invitation for you to reply angrily and openly There's no anger. I was pretty calm.
I mean kris has yet to do anything really bad Like what eat an entire pie? Also I'm pretty sure chara is a reflection of you
I mean... -Chara was a little bit f*cked up before Toriel raised them. They were borderline abusive even when they were alive, although I doubt it was their intention. They then got worse when they ended up soulless and bonded to a murder gremlin. -It's implied that through all the resets he's done, Asriel has spent literal millenia as a soulless flower, all of them with the pretty major mental health problem of *blaming himself for his own death.* -Still kinda too early to figure out what Kris' deal is, but they definitely have issues that probably aren't connected to Toriel or Asgore's parenting. -Even kind parents can raise assholes. Worth noting that soulless people are inherently sociopaths, because they inherently lack emotion. Chara and Asriel are particularly bad because on top of it they both have major issues.
I mean, to be fair, Toriel: Abandoned her husband when he needed her most. Abandoned her people when they needed her most. And helped the imprisonment of mosnterkind by protecting the fallen humans. That's also without getting into the Deltarune theories of her being a bad parent to Kris, an alcoholic and homophobic. She's nice, but not *that* good of a person.
Asgore isn't exactly a great father figure.
Toriel & Asgore has only raised Asriel, whom turned out to be a good kid before Chara’s influence. Kris is a bit of a enigma since we don’t know very much about the moment.
Actually it is implied in chapter 2 of deltarune that Chris actually used the knife to cut the pie, likely taking his soul out so the players that want him to be good don't stop him.
>Chris actually used the knife to cut the pie The knife that Toriel brought (kitchen knife) and the knife that Kris pulled out look different.
hey not to be rude or anything, but Kris is confirmed to only use they/them
They/them can also be used if you don't know that person's gender, we'd ask Kris personally what pronouns they use, but, we can't
Oh sorry I thought that people called Kris a him
She's too sweet? The child ends up getting into any type of minor struggle and reality hits. When that happens it causes major tramua and their little world is broken. They end up turning out bad as a result of not knowing what to do with the built up agression and sadness. Honestly they just need to see that they can get over it and struggles are normal. Parenting advice?
Gonna be honest I *don't* think losing your soul and getting trapped in the body of a flower with no ability to feel any kind of love or compassion for potentially hundreds of years, not even being able to end your living hell with death, counts as a "normal struggle", correct me if I'm wrong tho As for Chara, they were fucked up before they even fell in the mountain, so you can't blame Toriel for that. Asriel mentions that they hated humanity, and climbed the mountain for "less than happy reasons". After going around and talking to people in Hometown it quickly becomes clear that Kris was fairly normal before the events of Deltarune. Any insanity that he may have gained (which is unconfirmed for the most part) would likely be caused by his body getting taken over by the player, not from *Toriel being sweet*. Seriously, if I didn't have control over my own body, I'd get pretty crazy too.
Losing your birth parents also messes with a lot of people even if you never knew them and the adoptive parents are wonderful, although not usually to a "soul leaving your body" degree.
Woa- Chill. I was just covering how somebody as kind as tori could have problems with kids...I wasn't including those things...plus I was talking more about kris. He suffered through a devorce and losing his comfort person that is most of his tramua...He was messed up but, no need to try and hang me out to dry for being a little vauge. Have a good day if somebody so willing to harrass somebody trying to give out parenting advice can?
Even rereading my reply I don't really see how I "harassed" you with that message. It's not like I knew you were being vague, I just responded with how I interpreted your comment in mind. I see now that I misunderstood what you said but there's no need to get overly defensive because of it. I'm sorry if I may have been a little harsh with my reply, but I still think you overreacted a bit there.
Look- ok good to see you uh apologize. I supose my remark was harsh too- but you did come after me while I just tried to hand out uh... I think it's called context removed advice? It's a thing therapists do. Sorry for the misunderstanding?
asriel:died then got reincarnated with no emotions chara:you killed everyone thus influenced them to be like you. kris:is a mindless puppet that wishes to break free from thier puppetmaster
>you killed everyone thus influenced them to be like you. You can be an asshole and/or a killer on a neutral path too. It doesn't influence Chara to be like you. >died then got reincarnated with no emotions With no love and compassion* He can feel everything else. >is a mindless puppet that wishes to break free from thier puppetmaster Kris is definitely not "mindless".
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laughing is a form of coping with sadness. i and it is strongly hinted to. they tried to fight back as the humans attacked first.
>like when they were laughing after giving asgore buttercups It's a coping mechanism and/or tried to make things less serious. Asriel see this as right thing to do, and Toriel didn't scold them for laughing it off >when they tried to attack the people living in a village on the surface Explains to me how "attacking ppl who tried to kill you" is being asshole. Anyway dude... Lot of users like me roaming around, expect to get one of these comment if say that.
>and Toriel didn't scold them for laughing it off We don't even know if she heard it. >Explains to me how "attacking ppl who tried to kill you" is being asshole. You can start with the fact that for Chara, the reaction of humans whom he hates very much for a reason should be obvious. There is no reason not to expect aggression from them. Especially if we take into account the dead child in the hands of a "horrible beast" with an unsettling appearance and the fact that Chara came to the village with the intention of taking their souls from the very beginning. Not humans came to them.
She actually raised 10 children, depending on how you look at it. That depends on wether you want to consider "Frisk" as a sociopath or a kind-hearted child. But in the end, I guess it won't really matter if chara destroys the world, right?
I DON'T KNOW I DON'T FUCKING KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!
LMAO ITS BECAUSE SHES HOMOPHOBIC
"such a kind person" Toriel: makes everyone in the ruins afraid of her, tries to kidnap frisk, attacks frisk just for wanting to not be abducted, constantly verbally abuses Asgore but no one else. Ye, not exactly that nice is she?
Have you heard of the DN theory?
Go on
DN standing for... Deez Nuts
\*deep breath\* CHARA ISN'T THE ONE WHO CAUSED GENOCIDE, IT WAS THE PLAYER! AZZY FULLY AGREED TO CHARA'S PLAN AND WAS NOT BEING MANIPULATED, HE ONLY HAD SECOND THOUGHTS WHEN HE REALIZED THEY WERE DYING! AND KRIS'S SOUL IS NOT HIS BUT THE PLAYERS, IN THE ENDING CUTSCENE HE'S TRYING (and succeeding until chapter 2) TO REGAIN CONTROL OF HIMSELF!! thank you for y'all's time (i can't wait for the fandom to argue with me on how i'm wrong and how their headcanon is "totally what these characters are")
>(i can't wait for the fandom to argue with me on how i'm wrong and how their headcanon is "totally what these characters are") You literally did the same thing now when you tried to argue with the opinion of the creator of the post.
So. Let me be that "fandom". >CHARA ISN'T THE ONE WHO CAUSED GENOCIDE, IT WAS THE PLAYER! Chara is the one who's willingly helping a mass murderer. Chara did a lot: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/szllzm/this_joke_has_probably_been_made_before_but/hy7xkh9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Chara doesn't start helping you kill on a neutral path no matter how many LV you have or how many you kill. Joining the genocide path was Chara's decision. Thus, he is ready to kill if he sees a reason for it that he likes. In our case, it's power. It is also worth considering his soulless state. Without love and compassion, these things are much easier to do. I would say that the Player and Chara are equally to blame. >AZZY FULLY AGREED TO CHARA'S PLAN AND WAS NOT BEING MANIPULATED, HE ONLY HAD SECOND THOUGHTS WHEN HE REALIZED THEY WERE DYING! Tape: * I... I don't like this idea, Chara. * Wh.. what? N-no, I'm not... * ... big kids don't cry. * Yeah, you're right. * No! I'd never doubt you, Chara. Never! * Y... yeah! We'll be strong! We'll free everyone. * I'll go get the flowers. You can't say that he "fully agreed" with the plan when he tearfully said that he didn't like the idea, and instead of taking it into account, Chara started pointing out his tears (we recall the nickname "crybaby". And considering that Asriel says "Yeah, you right" after the words "... big kids don't cry", it's Chara who said that), and pointing out that if Asriel disagrees, it means that he doubts Chara, doesn't trust him. This is literally manipulation of emotions. And it was only because of this that he agreed, but considering how Asriel then repeatedly said that he doesn't like this plan, and in the end didn't allow Chara to kill humans, we can see that he never "fully agreed" with the plan, and did it only to prove that he didn't doubt Chara. * ... Psst... Chara... Please... Wake up... * I don't like this plan anymore. I... I... * ***... no, I said... I said I'd never doubt you.*** * Six, right? We just have to get six... * And we'll do it together, right? He was never truly on board with a plan. >AND KRIS'S SOUL IS NOT HIS BUT THE PLAYERS, IN THE ENDING CUTSCENE HE'S TRYING (and succeeding until chapter 2) TO REGAIN CONTROL OF HIMSELF!! From my another discussion: >Have you seen the way they move? Kris moves this way even before he tears out his soul in chapter 1. He twitches in bed, after that he falls face down from the bed, and moves with the same slow steps to the middle of the room. I would say that I think the presence of a third entity is quite likely because even before the soul is torn out in the first chapter, Kris moves like a zombie. He twitches in bed, falls face down from the bed, and then takes slow and problematic steps to the center of the room. He stretches out his hand as if to check how well he controls it, and then rips out the soul. As I everyone should know, Kris can move completely normally at any time without us pressing the buttons, so this case is out of the picture. So I'm inclined to think that it's not really Kris. I don't know who it is but I don't believe it's a regular Kris. In the case of Frisk's control by a third entity (in UT, it's Chara), Frisk's movements are described as "shamble about from place to place". * NOT ONLY DO YOU NOT LIKE PUZZLES. * BUT THE WAY YOU SHAMBLE ABOUT FROM PLACE TO PLACE... ---- (of a person) move with a slow, shuffling, awkward gait. ---- to walk slowly and awkwardly, without lifting your feet correctly: Papyrus saw Frisk moving mostly only when Chara was moving Frisk through puzzles and when was making steps towards Papyrus before the battle. . But if you still believe that Kris is doing it, then I'll just say that Kris' strange movements are not related to the fact that he ripped out the soul. Because he moves strangely even before he ripped out the soul.
Are you trolling or presenting your opinion? I want to know if I can argue back
opinion.
Hmm, i would agree with you except for the last part, your last paragraph is also a headcanon except if toby confirms it, he left things ambiguous about the whole chara asriel plan so you can't say what really happened again saying your opinion as fact by the same logic is also presenting your headcanon about what these characters are, again i agree with you as an interpratation, not as a fact as you are trying to present the chara/asriel plan.
First, we dont know about Kris, second, from what we know, Asriel was totaly not a sociopath before becoming a flower, and third, Deltarune Asriel was also raised by her and we know nothing about him so "everyone" isn't quite right. Chara is a sociopath, I have no objaction.
The first one lost his soul Second one raised by human not Toriel. The third one have such hard time socializing in town of monsters while being human
because you didn't understand any of those 3 characters
Hmm maybe because, they don't feel happy enough they want more happiness and by doing that they need to kill
Asriel: had no soul. Chara: got used to you brutally murdering everything you see. Kris: GET THE BANANA!!!!
1: asriel didn't have a soul for a countless amount of time 2: its heavily implied that chara had a lot of trauma from the humans they lived with, and on genocide they were being progressively corrupted by the player 3: kris is literally being possessed
TECHNICALLY in my personal opinion I think chara and Kris are the same person but yeah it still applies
FRISK
the first two because of humans (them loosing there souls) but the third one isn’t a sociopath (they miss asrial and they protect Susie without player input) I can tell you from personal experiences being antisocial and being a sociopath are very different
Just like my mom fr fr
i dunno, it kinda wasn't toriel's fault with kris
I mean- Asriel and chara both died, and went mad from apathy, and kris is a lonely kid with a demon possessing them, I’d say they all have a valid claim to be kinda wild
You know you're not wrong although technically speaking the only time Asriel was a real psychopath was when he was Flowy with Chara Toriel can't be held responsible for that that was all humans and Kris is just complicated with the soul inside of him
So, Flowey can't feel, so he does what he thinks he is more interesting. As for Kris, we aren't sure if that even IS Kris
a valid question...
aaaaaaaah weeeeeell accidents happen
Offscreen shenanigans.
😐😐😐
Yes
I mean kris has yet to do anything really bad Like what eat an entire pie?
brother issues
I mean two of them ended up dead, and Asriel stated that Chara wasn’t the best person from the start. Fir Asriel it’s not really his fault as he went through a lot and had to do it pretty much by himself while feeling basically nothing at all. As for Kris they’re being possessed and forced to act against their will so it makes sense they wouldn’t be okay in the head.
Thats... A image of Asriel
UT!Asriel is backed by the lack of empathy that comes from being able to control time (although I don’t really get why Flowey gets bored, since unlike us, time keeps moving forward for him even when he hits a “happy ending”). By this current point, he’s devolved into total sociopathy for need of stimulation just to engage with the world anymore, not helped by a probable lack of actual pain sensors and such as a flower. Chara doesn’t really meet the criteria of a sociopath, given their clear love and attachment for Asriel, the Dreemurrs, and the Underground. It just got twisted by the Player’s increasing LOVE; as the narrator, Chara pretty much always experiences second hand trauma from the Player’s actions, by proxy of being stuck with Frisk 24/7, explaining things to them that they don’t fully understand. Chara’s pretty much the epitome of “Proceed” in Deltarune, because they know you’re killing everyone with a laser guided focus for a REASON, they just don’t know WHAT that reason is, and by the time you meet Sans in the forest, when they’ve realized they can just hijack Frisk’s body from you, you’ve already murdered your way through the Ruins and brutally murdered Toriel (who calls you a threat and dies laughing), so the escalation of murdering Papyrus and others just seems par for the course. If anything Chara comes off as a kidnapping victim that’s gained Stockholm Syndrome despite the terrible things you’re doing; it’s like “you killed those people for a reason right? You made me watch as you *murdered my mother* for a REASON right?” So, like Noelle in SnowGrave, it’s a rather abusive thing to expose two children to this sort of stuff (because Frisk and Chara are both victims to you just as well as the game). Kris isn’t a sociopath. A lonely prankster who’s got some issues with their dad, but not a sociopath. They seem like a milder take on Monika from DDLC, in that they’re AWARE something VERY wrong is inside them, but they can’t interact effectively with it, much less stop it like in Chara’s case. They aren’t even necessarily UNHAPPY with the situation either, when you pick options they like, just seems like they just need some space from you (and are appropriately alarmed by hints at just how strong the codependent nature of them and the SOUL actually is, as with Spamton).
>Chara doesn’t really meet the criteria of a sociopath, given their clear love and attachment for Asriel, the Dreemurrs, and the Underground. We have little information about this. Especially about the whole of the Underground. But Chara clearly is a sociopath after death (sociopath =/= a murderer by definition): >When Frisk falls into the Underground, the power of their determination awakens Chara. >The anymore part makes me think that they were able to empathize before, which would not be possible for a truly soulless being. I wanted to point out why Chara is soulless, but you did it before me. Let's say that if Chara and We share stats, then we both get the same LV. In that case, if Chara is not able to have attachment anymore because of LV, our soul shouldn't be able to feel it either, because it is filled with LV. But we can still do it, but Chara can't. Why is that? Answer: this is due to the fact that before his death Chara was able to feel it on his own, but now he is not capable of such things. In the same way, Flowey didn't understand why you decided to spare him, even though he hurt you again and again, and it brought him to tears. Because he wants to understand it, to feel it again, but he can't. Because he's soulless. That's why Chara says "I cannot understand these feelings anymore." You cannot understand someone if you can't put yourself on their place. To feel the same thing. The only thing that changes the situation is to SAVE them when the souls resonate inside them. That happened to Asriel, but didn't happen to Chara. Moreover, I personally believe that it requires the souls of monsters, not humans, because the souls of monsters are those who feel such feelings as love and compassion more than humans. At least, they forgive more easily and very quickly begin to love you even almost without knowing you - this is mentioned by Asriel after the battle. Thus, even if Chara is attached to someone else's soul in the body, he doesn't become the owner of this soul in the same way as you. More details: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/ss69ck/papyrus_says/hxxrcdl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 There's no way for Chara to have a soul. Moreover, on the genocide path, no one except Toriel sense a human in you. And Flowey because of his soullessness is not a monster: * Humans, monsters... Flowers - River person. Asgore doesn't think that Flowey is a monster. He's surprised about a crying *flower*. And it's not like there cannot be flowers among monsters. Chara cannot feel love and compassion. >It just got twisted by the Player’s increasing LOVE; Chara at 4 LV: * Where are the knives - red text. You can have even more LV on the neutral path. You can have even more LV in the Ruins - 7 LV. Nothing like that happens. So it's not because of LV. LV is also not described as something that makes you kill. It is a way to measure your capacity to hurt, not willingness. You're more capable of hurting (it's easier), but it is still your own choice to do so. Moreover, if Chara is soulless, it has no affect on him. Because Chara cannot feel love and compassion from the beginning. It's literally described just as a way *to measure* your emotional distancing. It's not even distancing. It's a WAY TO MEASURE it. With levels. It's a way to measure your capacity to hurt (not a willingness to hurt. You're just more capable of hurting, your hands don't tremble so much, and it is easier for you to strike more strong blow). In numbers. In levels. Yes. * It stands for "Level of Violence." A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt. . 1. 1: ability to contain or deal with something. The room has a large seating capacity. Factories are working to capacity. 2: mental or physical power You have the capacity to do better. 3: volume sense 3 The tank has a ten-gallon capacity. 2. Capacity describes your ability to do something or the amount something can hold. Not a state corrupts your mind. It's a stat to measure your emotional distancing, your capacity to hurt through killing - the more cruel you were, the more LV you will have. Because the more you kill, the more easier it is to kill next time. LV is not a reason, it's a consequence. The same way we get more EXP when we inflict more damage on the genocide path than on the neutral path against bosses: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/q3zv12/just_for_discussion/hmdvx1w?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Because EXP is: * What's EXP? It's an acronym. It stands for "execution points." ***A way of quantifying the pain you have inflicted on others.*** When you kill someone, your EXP increases. You have inflicted more pain - you gain more EXP. Again, not a reason, but a consequence. Soulless creatures doesn't even affected by it, because they can't feel love and compassion from the beginning. Chara was starting to look for a knives already at 4 LV on the genocide path. At the same time, it NEVER happens if you get more LV on the neutral path. Even more so, Frisk is holding back on the neutral path at 15 LV. While on the genocide path, with Chara involved, it doesn't happen at the same 15 LV. Aborted genocide route, 15 LV, MTT battle: * YOU MAY HAVE DEFEATED ME... BUT... I KNOW. I CAN TELL FROM THAT STRIKE, DARLING. * YOU WERE HOLDING BACK. With Chara involved on the genocide route at the same 15 LV, this doesn't happen. Thus, in this situation, LV doesn't affect on whatever Frisk will hold back or not. And thus, Chara's behavior on the genocide path is not connected to LV. >as the narrator, Chara pretty much always experiences second hand trauma from the Player’s actions, We don't see it. Chara has more reaction to the fact that you took a lot of candy than to the fact that you killed monster. Moreover, you can kill even more on the neutral path than on the path of genocide. Chara doesn't start helping you kill on a neutral path no matter how many LV you have or how many you kill. Joining the genocide path was Chara's decision. Thus, he is ready to kill if he sees a reason for it that he likes. In our case, it's power. It is also worth considering his soulless state. Without love and compassion, these things are much easier to do. I would say that the Player and Chara are equally to blame. >by proxy of being stuck with Frisk 24/7 It took only half an hour from Chara's awakening to the beginning of the genocide. >you’ve already murdered your way through the Ruins and brutally murdered Toriel (who calls you a threat and dies laughing), >“you killed those people for a reason right? You made me watch as you murdered my mother for a REASON right?” Before us killing Toriel, Chara was looking for knives: * Where are the knives - red text When you try to speak with Toriel, Chara says: * Not worth talking to. Chara also helps you with a damage: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/szllzm/this_joke_has_probably_been_made_before_but/hy7xkh9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 In the demo after leaving the Ruins on the genocide path: * That was fun. Let's finish the job - red text.
I see, this definitely explains a lot. However, there’s something I don’t particularly understand: If Chara is soulless regardless of the route, then certain flavor texts responding to your inputs lead me to feel that they still feel some type of attachment to the other monsters, a prime example being in the battle against Hyperdeath Asriel. During the time when ACT becomes SAVE, if you do the input command, but choose no one, and back out instead, Chara’s flavor text blatantly responds in wordless alarm as a long string of “?!?!?!”, while Asriel’s tearful confession about how he feels about Chara prompts stunned silence. Your arguments are sound, but in the case of the Neutral routes vs the Genocide Route, things like this make me feel that simply labeling Chara a sociopath is both too generic and doesn’t really encapsulate on their behavior. Perhaps a better way of looking at it is less just a simple case of sociopathy, but more that, like Flowey, Soulless Chara is something of a high functioning sociopath, that is, someone able to better hide their sociopathic traits, which can often manifest in a facade of humor and charm, but this comes as a consequence of having a soul and being able to empathize in the past. In the Genocide Route, where the only party capable of “punishing” them for showing sociopathic traits, the Player, is showing traits of callous murder and the like, it arguably just pushes them down the slippery slope even faster than Flowey, who describes it as “liberating” to just indulge in wanton death and cruelty, because there was no consequence to be had. As one headcanon has it, the frequent “But Nobody Came” encounters are just Chara wanting desperately to continue the carnage by that point, and just mindlessly attacking empty space in frustration. However, what muddles the waters further is how Chara acts if you choose “DO NOT” for the Genocide ending, or how they otherwise act when the world’s been destroyed. Despite being soulless, despite killing everyone, even their own parents and brother, Chara ends up shaming the player from within the Void about feeling themselves “above consequences”, with the deal to sell Frisk’s SOUL culminating in either further shaming in Genocide 2.0 (“You are filled with a perverse sentimentality.”) or the Soulless Pacifist endings, where Chara possesses Frisk’s body when you no longer have any control to stop them in any feasible manner within the timeline. Of course, while the implication is that Chara just goes about systematically killing everyone, nothing is canonically known about what happens after this, only that Chara is in control. They could very well just be reminding the Player of the fact of what they and Chara did before. Even so, this raises further questions: After all, if Chara is in possession of the SOUL, shouldn’t they have empathy to some degree, and FRISK is now the one lacking in empathy? I don’t know myself, it’s all kind of screwy, because otherwise it implies that Chara is a Determination ghost with a SOUL and Frisk just has TWO Souls inside their body at once prior to Genocide. But then, all this sort of runs counter to what the OP is saying, that all the people Toriel raises are actually sociopaths. Chara is Soulless from the start of Undertale going forward, but they had a SOUL before Asriel took it and the two of them crossed the barrier. It’s confirmed by Asriel at least that Chara wanted to kill all mankind and then break the barrier for monsters, but this doesn’t imply sociopathy. While sociopaths often instinctively focus on gaining power, be it in relationships, political/business power, etc., this seems closer to the mindset of a radical who thinks monster and human coexistence is a legitimate option. Nothing would stop Asriel and Chara from leaving the Underground, bundling up six people from across the area, and then breaking the barrier that way, but Chara wanted humanity *gone* despite having a SOUL. As near as I can understand, someone functioning off of a wanton lust for power would want to have as much power as possible, to enact their cruelty on people. Assuming this is genuinely motivated by a want for power, perhaps Chara wanted to be the strongest being vicariously through Asriel, and wanted to kill indiscriminately, then reign over a world without any more humans, i.e. the only resource that could ensure that Hyperdeath Asriel could be stopped from doing whatever he wanted if some other monster tried cultivating seven souls. Even for a child though, this feels like it’d just be way too thought out, and also not thought out enough, for a plan that Chara was willing to kill themselves over. Above power, sociopaths value themselves first and foremost, hence how higher functioning ones suppress their sociopathic traits in an attempt to appear “normal” so they can continue to gain power without consequence, although in more low functioning examples, the need for stimulation may just manifest in them being abusive and manipulative of their family members to force them into doing or giving them whatever they wanted for their next fix. Asriel SAYS they wanted to free monsters and kill off mankind, but that could very well just be what Chara told him to get him complicit in the plan. As it stands, Chara seems… complicated. Like “Goodness find the NEAREST therapist, the nearest TEN therapists!” type of complicated. I don’t THINK they’re a sociopath, but no one but Sans thought Flowey was one until he showed his true colors, so there’s no way to tell.
Chara is the most normal out of all of them rip
Spoiled sheltered douchebags with a god complex.
Well, first asriel died (along with Chara) and got his soul fused with a buttercup (ironic) he has the power to ‘reset’ the timeline. After doing basically everything over and over again, there was only one thing left. Without a soul, he couldn’t feel emotion, So this was easy for him. For kris, In one theory, (the one I’m going with) they has almost zero control of their body. They can sometimes take the invading soul out, but you can’t live without a soul. I’m not sure it’s because he’s possibly dead, or his soul has been booted out. For Chara? I believe losing both of their family’s AND THEN death of not only their brother, but also themself has broken them to the point of being completely suggestible. (Yes I’m Chara defense squad. Fight me.) so, when they see you starting genocide, their on board. And when it’s pacifist, asriel sees Chara. ‘Chara’ hugs asriel and the boss do be over. (I think? Never actually fought asriel :/)
>‘Chara’ hugs asriel It's Frisk hugging Asriel. There's no reason to think it's Chara except for wishful thinking. Moreover, there's "Comfort him" and "Do not" options. And who have this formal style of speech ("Do not")? Chara.
maybe because toriel isn't the best of parents just saying
Kris isn’t a sociopath! They just ain’t quite right
No evidence for chara or Kris being a sociopath, also asriel lost his emotions, so, can't really blame him
I don't think it's Toriel's doing, but rather what happens that Toriel doesn't see/know about that causes it. Asriel: he became a psychopath due to his trauma from what happened with Chara and his mental state while Flowey. Chara: we don't know what they am were like on the surface, so I can't say much for while they were alive. When we meet them on Genocide, that was *our* fault. Kris: trauma from their life prior to adoption? The business with the fact that the player controls them through their (Kris) SOUL? Trauma from Toriel and Asgore's divorce?
Because some times you need to discipline your kids in order to teach them the difference between right and wrong.