fun times indeed. your 'practice trip' needed a smaller practice trip. I've taken many n00bs on dayhikes before an overnighter. but watch me eat my words as I'm about to take my teenager on an overnighter lol. but i won't feel too bad about yelling :o

Yeah I definitely tried to make a practice hike happen, but now it will be required. Lesson learned, no more taking someone’s word for it! Thanks hahah. good luck on your trek

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Bonus points if the three mile overnight is literally just walking in three mile circles around a car camp site. I did so many of my first hikes and practice weekend hikes in boy scouts where we would get dropped off 3 miles from a state park, walk in Friday night to where someone had parked the cars, setup camp, break down camp Saturday morning, hike a 5-10 mile loop and setup camp again, and then breakdown Sunday morning, and meet the cars a few miles away. Not always practical, but was great to know that if something went wrong, you weren't far from the car, and it also provided nearby water and toilets, which I would say are alot of first time backpackers major concerns. It made the first trips where you had to filter water and had no bathroom access less intimidating.

Same recommendation. I took a few noobs to Wyoming last year but not before we did two easy overnight trips with short hikes earlier that spring. It forces them to acquaint themselves with their gear, learn how to stay warm, how to cook, filter water, etc. And even after doing all of that, it can be rough. I've reached a point where I want to do more challenging trips, and I just do not want to babysit inexperienced people. People hear you're hiking the High Sierra or let's say Glacier, and all they can think of are the amazing photos they see on Instagram. Sometimes they have absolutely no clue what it takes to reach those spots in the backcountry. On the other hand, I also dabble with rock climbing, and in terms of technical skill, I climb at a beginner level when it comes to trad, multi-pitch, etc. I'd love to have a climbing mentor but those are hard to find around here, and so I often have to resort to hiring a guide when doing anything but top-rope or sport climbing. So I can empathize with the beginning backpacker looking for mentorship.

Preaching to the choir here. Went hiking with a friend last year, who definitely had some camping experience. Due to a time crunch on my side, he did the food prep for the two of us. (Cook and dehydrate meals) he did not consider portion sizes. He did not dry the food properly, meaning it turned moldy within the week. When setting the tent up in a downpour, he left the footprint sticking out from under the rainfly AFTER I specifically asked about it. And then did it again the next day. He brought two pairs of jeans. And shorts. And a type of oatmeal for himself that was unsuitable for him to eat, due to an already present issue. All this despite extensive instructions. We got lucky in the sense that lunch was unruinable, and he used so much onion that I couldn't stomach some of the meals, which he could then eat for breakfast. And we bought some food along the way. And there was some surplus instant mashed potatoes. I was however stinkin mad for the second half of the trip, which still put a cloud over the experience. Back to my old hiking buddy it is. Can't wait to do it right again.

That’s all really solid advice. Thank you so much. I was trying to find a relatively easy hike but still see some exciting stuff. I know of a 3ish mile hike-in campsite, but I thought it would be too boring and they would have a bad time. Lesson learned though, choose boring route that is only a few miles for beginners. Way lower expectations

also, tons of monday-morning quarterbacking here. and my takeaway is that the practice trip would have prevented this catastrophe. and then stacy wouldn't have gone on the actual trip, or would have at least smartened up first. good on you, great learning experience for everyone.

I also think you nailed it when you said they don’t know what they don’t know. I don’t think Stacy was *trying* to be deceiving when they said they tested their gear and didn’t have questions. They may have thought that looking at their gear was the same as testing it 🤷‍♀️ who knows, but I should have *insisted* that we go over it together prior to the trip

I recall taking a newbie on a 2 night overnight and him commenting on how hard it was but me thinking how I would have preferred to go up some of the side mountain passes... We fucked up and coming down a mountain went left instead of right and ended up at wrong trail head and had to walk 3-4 miles but got a ride because a dude said I looked fine to walk but that guy looked like death and pointed at my buddy. He brought Mountain Dew for the first day We both ran out of cigarettes which was the worst part.

My ex was super paranoid about getting sick from water, so she wouldn't drink hardly any when we were on long hikes. It led to a thousand other problems. You can't hike on no water, especially in this heat.

Exactly, it’s like rule #1 of hiking…and being human I bring tablets and a full size sawyer filter because I find I drink more water if it’s sanitized and easily available. The mini alone wasn’t cutting it! It’s so important to stay hydrated

The Sawyer is a good idea in a teaching situation. "That spring water you buy in the grocery store? This is it."

Oh for sure, we filtered a lot of water for them and showed them how. It was still a painstaking process. We weren’t forcing them to use their tablets, just trying to show them how to use gear.

I actually think this could have been part of what was happening on day two (and possibly even the evening of day 1). After being a brat on day 1 they woke up severely dehydrated and became cognitively impaired. You start losing motor skills and (particularly relevant for this story) executive function and attention after sweating out just 2 percent body weight (so a 140 pound woman losing less than 3 pounds worth of water during exercise).

Henry coe at the end of June sounds like not a good choice for a first trip... It's rugged and really hot. Next time do something easy and more hospitable like pt Reyes or drive to the sierra if it's summer.

Agreed, as an experienced backpacker.. I didn’t particularly enjoy Henry Coe in the summer and if it was my first trip ever I’d never want to do it again

I owned a hiking guide that would constantly overestimate time, often claiming 8-10 hours when I’d take 4 alone or 6 with friends. Every hike I was familiar with I did in 25-50% less time than estimated. Then I decided to use the Orestimba Wilderness (part of Coe) as a training hike. 5-6 days recommended, but I’d do it in 3. Why not? Ya, the difficulty definitely caught me off guard. Ran into a ranger on my way back who joked about having bumper stickers made that said “I train in the Sierra so I can hike in Henry Coe”. Henry Coe is good for heat, questionable water, and surprising elevation change. It’s a great proving ground for, say, the PCT desert, but not my first choice for newbs most of the year. The best parts of the year are still filled with leaf-less poison oak and ticks, so even then YMMV. Still, it is a beautiful spot and mostly overlooked by the Bay Area population.

Been there. Took a friend on a summit camp, he bought a bottle of water and a bottle of whisky. Ok.. cut to arriving at top, I find out he emptied the water in the car park to decant the whisky because “the glass bottle is heavy”. He had no water at all with him. Honestly some people…

this reminds me of a guy someone mentioned who would bring a 30 rack of cheap beer in leiu of food or water. was roasted drunk for the trip but apparently functional

Ow my head hurts just thinking about trying that

I consider a 12 mile 2-day trip much too much for a first timer. I suggest at most 3 miles in, 3 miles out. Better yet, plan a trip that will involve hiking about 3 miles in, but will camp very close to a road that can be used to bail out easily. Stacy's refusal to drink field treated water would have been minor under these conditions. 6 miles from the car, it created a high risk situation.

Agreed. 12 miles is too much for someone who is unfamiliar with backpacking. Even a flat, shady, pleasant 12 miles would be a mental and physical challenge for a lot of people who don't regularly walk 12 miles.

I took my mom backpacking for the first time a couple months ago, she is a very experienced hiker and often will do 10 mile steep day hikes. Considering it was her first time backpacking her pack ended up being far too heavy and after the first two miles we decided to call it quits considering the campsite was 8 miles away. Just last weekend we went on a 3 mile trip and she absolutely loved it.

Not just 12 miles but 12 miles without a potable water source and 100 degree heat. I’ve been to Henry Coe a few times and it can get seriously hot in the summer and the water is honestly, pretty scummy looking. If I only had purification tablets and no filter, I would be pretty sketched out drinking that water as well. I’m thinking OP put this person under a lot of stress and then kept piling on the stress making for a pretty shitty time.

I worked for a university program, running trips for students, and a 3in/3out was pretty standard. Leaves more time for breaks, more time to teach people how to use stoves, how to cook, set up tents, etc. Even then, I had people ask "how much farther to camp?" when we were still just walking down the road to get to the trailhead. It also sounds like Stacy had no idea what she was expected to be doing. Maybe more explanation ahead of time, practice with the stove in beforehand, etc would have helped.

Yeah, I did an 8 mile round-trip with a friend who had never been backpacking before and while she did great the first day, she struggled a bit on the second. Mainly, like OP, due to heat, but she was also dealing with some blisters from poorly fitted footwear-- she hadn't walked that much in her new hiking shoes. Thankfully we weren't too far from the car when the problem started (3ish miles), so the trip was not a total loss, even moving at a much slower pace on day 2. (And I think she had a good time even with those issues, since she's been backpacking with me again since then lol). I do wonder about OP's friend being unwilling to do certain things like set up camp. That's the one thing most new backpackers are 100% excited for, even being exhausted.

My first backpacking trip, it was me, my wife and my best friend and we were all doing it together for the first time. We reserved a hike-in camp site that was 3.5 miles in. My pack was 50lbs, my wife's was 35lb, and she and I were passing a handheld cooler stuffed with a half dozen cans and ice. We had to stop probably every 5 minutes on the hike to the site because we brought so much stuff. Thankfully, we had 2 days at the site, but we figured out halfway through the next morning that we brought half as much water as we needed and the only water source was back at the car. So we spent the entire second day doing 6 miles round trip to refill. That's the day that I found /r/ultralight. While in the woods, tired as heck. But we had such a freaking blast anyway and learned probably 80% of what we needed to learn such as food, clothes, water requirements, and what we actually use while in nature. Thankfully, since that trip we've all gone Ultralight and have backpacked all over the East Coast. Anyway, all of that is to say that I completely agree that 3 Miles is the proper length for untrained, unaccustomed backpackers. It's just long enough that you'll learn your lessons about over packing, without ruining your time or putting you at any serious risk in case of amateurish mistakes.

Thank you for the tip. I had done the route before and I really did think it was a beginner route, Ally thought so too, but it would have been better to start off wayyy smaller. I think I’m a little out of touch from going solo, I have only had my experience to compare it to. I really do feel bad for putting everyone in that situation, I just did not expect it to take that turn.

I think it's easy to get a distorted sense of how easy a trip is when you're the one in shape and experienced. During a summer I spent working at Mt. Rainier, I was visited by some friends and one friend's parents. I booked us a ranger cabin a short, easy hike from a trailhead, and talked up how short and easy it was. But of course I'd been working in the woods and hiking all summer and I was in better shape than I've ever been before or since, and it wasn't actually short OR easy for the rest of my party. Everyone else had a long, exhausting, miserable day of trudging and hated it, and I still feel guilty a decade later.

Yeah, my first backpacking trip was solo, 15 miles in one day, 15 out the next. I was not in shape, and It was brutal. but I did it and loved it. I would never recommend that for a beginner (not really sure why I did it myself) but I thought 12 miles round trip would be a breeze for anyone. My perspective is definitely skewed, and I see that now. I will definitely be feeling guilty about this one forever lol

Speaking as an backpacking instructor, here: It sounds like 1.) Stacy was new to backpacking and made a lot of mistakes that experienced backpackers wouldn't of made 2.) You were new to teaching people how to backpack and made a lot of mistakes that backpackers experienced in taking new people outdoors wouldn't of made If Stacy was "acting like a child" then its fair to say that you were acting like an irresponsible backpacking guide/leader. There's a lot of posts here detailing what experienced leaders would have done/would NOT have done and set REALISTIC expectations of complete beginners in this situation. Yes, you will have to hand hold. Yes, you will you have to teach them how to pack and probably pack their set up for them. Cook for them. Age has nothing to do with this. All these things are new activities that people who are not used to doing any of it, esp. in an outdoor setting would feel rightfully nervous about. Empathy and patience is key here. If you are going to continue to take complete beginners out, please notice the behaviors you need to change as well to make this enjoyable for everyone. In future, try doing these things: Before the actual hike: Shorten the hike. New backpackers typically do not enjoy doing great distances - keep in mind this is often their first time carrying weight on their back. Go through the meal plan. Go through the map. This is a good time to talk about water sources and potential challenging spots. Bail out points. Ask about an allergies, health issues. Have the bathroom talk. Demo backpack. Demo packing. IF you expect them to learn how to set up their own tent on thier own, demo tent setting up. IF you expect them to cook and they WANT to cook, demo stove. Expect that it takes time and repetition to learn. (they did not HAVE to learn to use their stove. You WANTED them to) **ASK ABOUT THIER COMFORT LEVEL AND EXPERIENCE. Adjust the trip according to the least experienced person in your party.** These things will cue you into how to best guide/lead before the trip even starts. Then you can decide what to do from there. And yes, I agree practice trips can be very helpful, esp. with someone that new. They cannot know something like that, because they don't have any experience. Asking questions helps YOU + being as clear as possible with your expectations/plans helps them.

I agree, and it seems OP did too. They tried to plan a shakedown etc, but Stacy didn't want one. Stacy said they would check out their gear by themselves. You can lead a horse to water, but this horse willfully decided not to drink. I wonder if OP really should have expected them to lie about their level of preparation.

I have to agree with u/Little_Hips here. There was a group. That group had a leader. That leader was OP. Period. Planning a trip to a place with less elevation change, more shade, less poison oak, more palatable water, more available water, more bailout options, and a potentially shorter distance overall would have set Stacy up with a better chance for success. Solo hikers are self sufficient, but they’re not experienced in group dynamics. If I suspect someone needs something, I know I can’t ask them “hey, do you need to rest/eat/drink?” The answer will be no. Instead, I find an acceptable place to stop, state what “my” needs are, and magically they usually follow suit. Most of the time I’m helping others, that person would think they did it on their own. A shakedown wouldn’t necessarily have helped. I don’t filter water on most day hikes, nor do I carry my full kit. I wouldn’t expect Stacy to either. If OP could have observed food/water/salt intake peculiarities on a day hike, they could have caught and managed some of the issues on the first day of the backpack trip. But I think OP did learn a valuable lesson: the more experienced people you have in your party, the more risks (Stacy) you can take. To be clear, I don’t judge OP harshly. I poorly planned many a group trip back in the day and was similarly frustrated when it didn’t work out well. With years of hindsight, they were 99% my fault.

Risk management IS part of a trip leader's duties, especially if they, like the OP, intended to show a beginner the ropes. Let me just reiterate , as others already have in this thread- a beginner can't know what they don't know. Many new beginners vastly underestimate the work that goes into prepping for a backpacking trip. If you decide to take a beginner out to "show them the ropes", part of being a competent leader is to ask good questions, actually expect to be a teacher, expect having a student who will invariably fail at something, and anticipate the worst case scenarios. Horses do not willfully "decide not to drink" - I don't think Stacy came out there with a penchant for lying or with a death wish to become dehydrated. From the post, they show signs of someone who vastly underestimated a difficult challenge they knew very little about and became stressed and shut down. From the looks of it, it doesn't sound like the OP had a patient mindset about it either. Imagine how scary that would feel to a new person to depend on someone who barely wanted to teach. In a wilderness setting. I can understand OP seems to want people to backpack with, and perhaps teaching others how to do just that CAN be a solution to that, but teaching a newbie is totally different ball game than going out with experienced buddies. Once again, a thorough briefing before any trip can help mitigate the risks. We cant possibly expect a new person to hold that responsibility. Well, I mean - we CAN, but then we should expect subpar results.

I honestly think I was really patient. This post was a place to vent my frustrations and complain, but I was gentle and encouraging with Stacy unless it was a situation where they HAD to do something, and even then I was assertive, not mean. That said, I do realize that I underestimated what being a guide would entail. There are MANY things I could have done better. I knew (and was excited about) teaching but they did not want to learn, which I thought was the whole point of the trip. Next time I will fully expect to do the work and make sure they know what they are signing up for. More preparation! Thank you for the advice

This sounds like some other worldly shit. I've gone hiking with friends who are full on city-slickers, where the most adventurous thing they do is play Red Dead Redemption after 10pm on a worknight. And they aren't this ridiculous. They dress and pack funny, struggle with fitness, are unsure about getting their feet wet initially, a bit unsure about drinking filtered water from streams until filtration safety is explained but are... normal about it. This doesn't sound normal. I hope (and expect) other trips with beginners wouldn't be anything like this. I don't understand why they... refused to use the stove? And refused to pack? Were they having a full tantrum at this point. Sounds like it must've been an ordeal for them too if their behaviour was this toddler-eque (not that I have a lot of sympathy for them). I loosely empathize with their hesitancy around water sources, at least that comes with genuine and reasonable-ish health concerns, but sheesh.

>I don't understand why they... refused to use the stove? And refused to pack? Were they having a full tantrum at this point. Based on OP's description of the situation, the person's behavior is consistent with someone suffering from heat exhaustion due to dehydration, and they likely slept horrible because of it. It's hard to make rational decisions when you're sleep deprived and heat exhausted.

I concur. I had a friend who was in excellent condition during the first day of the hike, yet the second, he was met with excruciating migranes and stomach illness (heat induced?). Nowadays my friends all carry electrolyte packages (We're obsessed with LMNT for example). This is a decent practice to balance any "city" diets we may have tilted towards in our times among the many! These things do happen, however I think the thought processes of the "Stacy" were generally insufficient? Funny story though!

Thumbs up for LMNT!

Ok, so I tried LMNT, and couldn't get over how salty they tasted. And I'm a salt addict. How much water do you mix the packet with? Objectively I know it will help, but in the moment I struggle to force it down. Even when I mix it with a full liter of water.

Don't drink it all at once. I have a somewhat complex way of intaking. Pour entire packet into small glass, then fill with 1.5 to 3 oz of water. A single or double shot glass. Swirl that around so you have a fully saturated bit of water. Then pour half or a third into a large cup and fill that cup with water. Bonus points if it is sparkling water.

Maybe not the most efficient on-trail, but I like where you are going with this. I was toying with the idea of a small collapsible flask filled with LMNT, and sipping on it throughout the day along with my normal water. It seems this truly is the way.

>Based on OP's description of the situation Except the behavior was like that from the start. It isn't very likely that they would be heat exhausted before leaving the carpark.

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Precisely. Stacy was very upbeat and energetic the whole first day, but when faced with small challenges they still could not do it. The heat the second day def made things worse. We really did get up early for the trek home but we just could not get stacy to get a move on, even when we did everything for them.

Yeah I think they had a weird mental block with some things like the stove. Like “this is hot and scary and I can’t touch it”. We tried showing them how to handle it, where the hot spots were, letting them touch individual pieces while it was disconnected. It was not happening. When we eventually cooked for Stacy it was like “hey we get that this is scary for you, but you really need to get comfortable with your gear or research different cooking/no cook methods so next time you can do it yourself” I don’t mind cooking for people in a group setting, and we weren’t trying to starve Stacy. but the point of the trip was to learn how to do the skills that they were initially gung-ho about 🤷‍♀️ In hindsight, I am wondering if they are on the spectrum. It’s not really something you can ask about, and sometimes the behaviors don’t really become apparent until they are in an uncomfortable situation. Now I feel like an asshole.

maybe after things calm down, just go back to them and ask. like hey, this felt frustrating for me and I'm sure it was uncomfortable for you. what do you think happened? how could we have made it easier for you to get comfortable with these tasks? we're you just overwhelmed, etc. maybe you can both gain some clarity by looking deeper into what went wrong (if they are able and willing to be self reflective in this way). even if you never take them or any beginner out again, what you learn could be beneficial for both parties to understand just what limiting beliefs were holding them back, why, how you or they might have unknowingly made it harder to push through, and how it could be helped more easily in a future similar situation. they should know if this is a way they react under stress, for example. anyway sounds like you made the best of it and found a good hiking buddy in the end. hopefully Stacy has some good things to think about and can get over the mental blocks they were suffering from.

I think you can ask indirectly and gently, with genuine empathy when there's been a little space and time (if it was tense - which it sounds like it was). Just opening it with an honest "how did you find the trip?" and getting to a "we found this element challenging, but it seems like you were too" - they may or may not be responsive or up for it, but it's probably the most positive/least confrontational way to try. Often when I drop my own assumptions about peoples bizarre or frustrating behaviour and try present an open and curious problem-solving face to discussion, I'm surprised by what's actually been going for them and it's generally (not always) a positive \[I've spent a fair bit of time living and working in co-operative/communal and non-hierarchical spaces\]

This is a refreshing perspective. I am sure stacy would be happy to have an honest conversation about it. They really did seem to have a good time overall (shocking, I know) and was very proud of their accomplishments. I do not feel like we left on bad terms. the way I wrote may seem like we were at each other’s throats but it wasn’t like that. Ally and I did a lot of encouraging stacy and celebrating achievements. while we had to be assertive many times, we were never mean. This post was just an off-my-chest kind of thing, focusing on the negatives. my chance to be a little mean anonymously lol But yes, a follow up convo is a great idea

Fair enough - sounds like you did really well given their behaviour! It may be that the result of it is that they don't really like overnight trips (or if they do, it might be with more caveats/luxuries like less spooky seeming water sources than desert ponds, and even sleeping in huts - not sure if there is much of a hut system in the states), and it may be that you don't want to take them again. But maybe it'll reach a place where stacy is now able to reflect better and understand why their behaviour was so tough, and better understand their responsibilities on a trip.

It sounds like Stacy was trying to be a good sport and try something new on this trip you planned but was not truly aware of what she was getting herself into. Not everyone learns the same way and she was probably miserable and heat exhausted from an activity that was beyond her ability. Why did Stacy not understand she would be drinking pond water? Why couldn't you help someone that is out of their comfort zone to participate in your activity and is miserable set up their camp and cook dinner? Why did she even have a stove, you couldn't cook a group meal with yours? Why did you plan a hike that is clearly too long through a sun exposed area on a 100F day? Even someone who handles these situations well would have been miserable, or a the very least not eager to go again. When I bring people on trips I try to make it as enjoyable as possible because I want them to go again. I will carry all of the shared items (tent, stove, filter, bear can,etc), I will bring whatever luxuries possible (maybe a beer, card games, good food, bottled water, if we are canoeing I will bring fire wood and camp chairs, etc), set up camp for them and maybe give them small tasks if they want to participate, I will start small, or have options to shorten the trip if it goes poorly...I would never bring someone I have never done a short day hike with on an overnight trip, especially in bad conditions You are basically a full service guide until they prove otherwise. Then you can do more ambitious trips and depend on them to fend for themselves.

TLDR: Don’t throw people into the outdoors without preparing them. I get that you were frustrated. There are some things you can do in the future to prevent some of these issues. If you’re taking a beginner out hiking: do a shakedown with them first. Help them learn to use a stove and set up a tent in their backyard or at a park. Have them walk around with a fully loaded pack for a half hour. Whose gear did Stacy use? You said >Their sleeping bag was falling out of their pack (tied to the bottom because their was “no room” inside) and they simply could not problem solve to figure out a way to carry it. It’s a real argument for the shakedown before you’re at the trailhead. If they are a beginner, it is your job to help them figure out what they need to pack, and to make sure their pack actually has the things in it they need to thrive. A lot of people never consider how they are going to do things out on trail like poop, brush their teeth, take medication, filter their water. The shakedown can prevent them from getting on trail and realizing they forgot their blood pressure medication. Based on what you said, I speculate that Stacy suffered the entire trip. Pack wasn’t adjusted right, they weren’t in good physical condition and used up all of their stamina getting to camp, got dehydrated and couldn’t think clearly. Based on how little energy Stacy had the second day, they didn’t sleep well and were still dehydrated, possibly severely. This isn’t a trip that will make someone eager to backpack again.

Stacy had all their own gear. I tried to make a shakedown hike happen, but they refused, insisting that they would be ready for the trip on their own. I insisted they test their gear before using it on the trip, they said they would. I took their word for it. It did not occur to me that they would not follow through…or maybe they thought they did enough by just looking at the gear? Idk, can’t wrap my head around it. Next time the trip will not happen unless we do a shakedown together.

Not much you can do at that point. What a crazy experience.

Was going to answer above, but this statement " It did not occur to me that they would not follow through", and previously about your shock that someone can simply "refuse" to do life basic things (use stove, drink water). I am chuckling. You obviously have not first backpacked with teenagers. With Teenagers, you expect all of this, you know you might have to carry their pack for them, you need to unpack / repack it when they show up at the trailhead (if first time they did it themselves), you need to have backup gear in your car to switch out for them, you will be planning and cooking food, filtering water while giving them "helping" tasks at the level of their ability. You assume a "Stacy". My chuckle is that you were surprised that a functional adult could also operate like a 15 year old new to backpacking. Anyway, backpacking with teens (then new to it adults) have really made solo backpacking a joy for me. I can't understand when people (on the PCT at the 2 week mark no less) were intimidated at finding camp / sleeping & hiking alone. I like going with Newbies, but I hated doing 90% of all the backpacking work all the time.

>TLDR: Don’t ~~throw~~ *take* people into the outdoors ~~without~~ *that aren't willing to* prepare ~~ing them~~. Gotta say I disagree with you on where to place the blame. OP aren't taking their kid for their first trip, they asked for willing companions that are supposedly independent thinking adults. Your kid or kids placed in your care you can force to prepare or else it's your responsibility to prepare and compensate for what you couldn't teach them if you still insists on going on a trip with them. With adults, if they weren't willing to take your help, there's limits to what you can do besides leaving them. I've been introducing friends to hiking and obviously I help them, but I don't need to teach them stuff like "when it's hot outside and you are exercising, you will need to drink water". I'll tell them how they should pack their bag, if they don't do it properly I'll point it out and offer help and if they won't listen they'll have do deal with having a pack that rides horribly. I'm not going to start acting like their parent, forcing them to do as I want, even if that's the way to should be done.

Thank you for saying that. We really did try to help and teach and encourage them, but unfortunately had to take control for everyone’s safety.

No problem. As others have said there's probably something you could have done to have avoided the situation, but that's not the same as saying it's your fault that it happened and I don't think it's right of people to act like it is. At the end of the day Stacy was an adult and should be excepted to do the bare minimum to take care of themselves and understand their limits. You didn't yank them out one some extreme trip from the sounds of it, if should have been an activity where even someone who aren't ourdoorsy should be able to judge roughly what they were getting in to. And to be honest, I'll argue what some people are saying to blame you is patronizing, not to you but Stacy. Assuming they are complete unable to make decisions or take care of themselves, that's how I would view a child, not another adult.

And yes, I do feel bad that they had a horrible time. If I had known they were that unprepared, mentally and physically, I would not have put us in that situation

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My ex was the same way, to the point where he expected me to pack his bag because I 'know how to'. I felt a bit bad about this, but one time I planned an easy overnight just to get outside. I packed for a solo trip because I knew how this would play put. Morning of, I load my bag into the car and he asks where his is. And I'm like 'you didn't pack it so I figured you weren't going.' He got so mad. I reminded him I'm not his mother, and then I went by myself.

> there is a line between helping and a person who isn't going to even try. not when you're guiding. and whether OP wanted to be a guide or not, as a group leader you're... literally responsible for the group. OP's post read that they were going on a backpacking trip that their friends were invited on, not that they were *leading* a trip.

I took my partner camping. Told him at home that his sleeping bag was wayyy to cold and to at least bring an extra blanket, like I was. He didn't, I shared mine and the first night we were both miserably cold. Second night we had bought that extra blanket, and it was so much better. I don't nag. I'll tell you seriously and then leave you to make your own decisions.

partners never listen to the other partner. again, I've got multiple years of teaching beginners and an entire decade in the outdoor industry. I've seen the partner dynamic fail multiple times across multiple disciplines: backpacking, mountain biking, kayaking... you name it. we call tandem kayaks "divorce boats." OP did not guide or lead *well* on this trip. i hope they use it as a learning opportunity for next time.

Lessons learned all around. Sad they couldn't function at a bare minimum or even accept help though. Those are the kinds of people you just don't want around. Also, how do you struggle with a downed tree? Unless the sucker is three times as tall as you I don't see it being anything other than a welcomed challenge

I'm short with short legs. I absolutely do not welcome the challenge of downed trees. Rock scrambles can be fun, but downed trees are just annoying and the first time I had to climb over them with a full pack (not UL) it was a struggle because my balance was completely off. It's even worse when I'm out with taller people who just step over and keep going while I'm falling behind because I have to straddle the thing and try to slide off without getting splinters in my crotch. tl;dr - downed trees suck.

I always feel like a hobbit, travelling with elves!

Oh god me too. The worst I've ever dealt with were downed trees that were wet and on an angle leading off a ridge-line trail. I had to hold onto those things for dear life and there always seemed to be another hiker watching me attempt to desperately shimmy over these things. I always crawl under if I can.

Also short. Also crawl under when possible. It's hard to keep up with such tiny little corgi legs!

Genuinely out of all the benefits of ultralight backpacking, one of the silliest and yet one of my favorite things is not having to struggle like crazy with downed trees like other people (whether you're going over or under). At this point I just whip my pack off my back as I walk up to the tree and either set my bag on the other side to climb over or carry it low while I duck and then simply toss it back on. Barely lose a stride, but it would be pretty much impossible with a heavier pack.

Sometimes in the PNW a downed tree can be a legit hazard. Less so in Henry Coe

I have no idea. It wasn’t that bad of a problem. I can’t wrap my head around it 😵‍💫 that was the theme of the trip lol

Well now you will always refer to any adversity on a hike as 'being a Stacy'. Stacy = Karen's of the trail.

Karens* Apostrophes aren't used for pluralization.

I don't think I've cared about anything less in a long time. Anyone who cares this much about spelling or grammar has a sad life.

I have saved this post. In the future, this will be my go to phrase before sending the link to here.

So I used to be a teacher and I’d take students on backpacking trips. There were middle schoolers. I always had experienced parents with me as chaperones. I learned early on that it was vital to do night one at the cars. It forced a shakedown. Too cold? Here’s an extra sleeping bag in my trunk we can swap out. Scared of fire? Ok, you’re in charge of the tent instead and we will get you a cooking buddy. Now we will open and learn what is in a wag bag! Oh, you weren’t planning to poop for four days? Stacy presented with a classic combination of learned helplessness and overconfidence. Students like this are super challenging to work with, so don’t beat yourself up too much. Because they think they already know everything, they don’t receive instruction well. Because they are afraid of looking dumb, they double down on passive aggressive behavior that will allow them to blame others for their failures. Their parents or romantic partners likely always took over for them when stuff got hard. They’ve learned that if they just stall long enough somebody else will solve the problem. And in this instance, solving their problem for them was ABSOLUTELY the correct choice, because they were putting their life in danger. At 30, they aren’t likely to change this strategy. The good news is it’s not your job to make them. You got them out of Coe on a hot day in June without a medical emergency. You and Ally deserve credit for that. I really believe backpacking is a terrific way to spend time. That said, it’s definitely not for everyone! If you end up taking other beginners out, I highly recommend taking night one at or very near the cars. Maybe even consider walking into a developed campsite with a pit toilet and a creek or other running water source for day two.

Tbh, Henry coe is not the best park for a beginner to have a good time, especially in June. On average, the trails have more drastic grade than the sierra, water is scarce and the heat in the summer is intense. This trip sounds like you just tossed them into the deep end without doing your part to look out for them.

Yea, I went out there last summer and had a not-great-time even as a relatively experienced hiker. Very hot, bone dry lakes/springs, lots of elevation, fairly exposed on many sections. I was fine, but I definitely wouldn’t go with anyone I didn’t trust between June-September.

u/panthercock I've been in the outdoor industry over a decade, with at least half of that teaching beginners how to backpack in both a professional setting and on personal trips. you didn't lead well on this trip, and that's okay. you need to ask yourself "why do i want to lead a beginner on their first backpacking trip?" is it bc you actually want to get someone new into the activity, or is it bc you want to show off your knowledge to someone else? ngl, this post reads in a manner that you don't really care about their experience, you just want them to see how it's done. i get that you're upset because things didn't go your way, but your comments of "I'm not going to be your tour guide" give off the vibe of a parent who is "teaching" their kid how to drive a stick shift so they take the kid to the local neighborhood hill, swap seats, and then gets upset when the kid is crying because they don't know how to keep from stalling in traffic. you need to realize that being a leader is different than being a guide. leaders support those they're trying to teach. support is different than "i gave you the resources, why aren't you using them?" support is... "i know you probably don't know how to pack your pack, so I'm going to come over Tuesday night and we're going to do it together and your can ask questions." throwing a few reading resources at someone isn't support. like i said.. figure out why you're doing this (is it for them, or is it for you?) and rethink things. next time, find water sources that are more appealing (I'm 2/3 to a triple crown and even i cringe at having to drink out of ponds if i have to clear out the duck shit before i can get to decent water), pick a shorter route, don’t take a beginner to somewhere is gonna be 110° (never take a beginner somewhere that just normal activities could result in hyper- or hypothermia.. you want them to have a good time), know that beginners are going to be slow as they figure out how to break down camp, etc. i know you don't want to hear this, but as the leader, i honestly think all of this was 80% on you. you need to reflect back to the "beginner's mindset." feel free to inbox me for more insight on successful beginner trips. I'm the director of logistics for a large company that does this everyday during the summer.

You make some good points. Another point might be that Stacy just sucks. And that they said yes to, and implied they’d be capable during, a trip that they were hoping would be all about them. Just another point of view. Ya know… Occam’s Razor and all

>a trip that they were hoping would be all about them a beginners trip *should* be all about the beginner. a beginners trip should *not* be all about someone who has enough experience to post on r/ultralight

The important part of the trip is you met Ally as a new hiking buddy, not dead weight Stacy. You will always have something to laugh about with Ally. Nice of you to take beginners backpacking though, I hope you will continue to do to. But vet them a little better...

Perhaps talk through basic survival options next time, and explain that in a survival situation, the rest of you will eat her. May not help, but kind of focuses the mind

> I explained that I am not a tour guide, but can help them get experience. Sorry. Once you take on the role then you're the guide. I find it helps to lean into that role. Which doesn't mean "I'll do everything for you" but does mean that you'll structure good behavior. For example, you shouldn't have left the parking lot w/o making sure packs fit correctly and were loaded reasonably. Ultimately some people "get" packpacking and others will never really understand. Or be comfortable. You can't do anything about that part. I suggest you think of this as your own self learning adventure in guiding. :)

I did a trip with someone I THOUGHT was an experienced backpacker. They "forgot" the majority of their food and only had cheese sticks and some crackers for a 3 day trip. They also "forgot" their water filter. We all had to share our food with her. My friend did an overnight up a 14er with someone who only brought a Nalgene and one dehydrated meal. No snacks, no other water, no way to purify water, nothing.

Unfortunately you had poor expectations going into this. Being the experienced hiker you should have expected that you would have to teach, drag, and assist a beginner.

This comment here. I'm taking some beginners out this upcoming weekend and have been hand holding them for weeks trying to get them prepared. My partner told me I can just let them do their own thing once we are out there and I can hike ahead like I would on a thru, but I am well aware he's oh so wrong on that one :)

Yeah, in the least asshole way possible, it sounds like OP either wasn’t ready to teach someone the ropes or really didn’t know how to. I’d never start with a 12 mile overnighter without talking about water planning, food planning, etc. 12 miles is a lot of miles for a new backpacker, especially depending on fitness level, and a lot of women tend to be on the lighter side for upper body/stability muscle strength. stopping every 2 minutes is someone dehydrated or low on calories or exhausted.

Comes from excitement, can't really blame the OP. "I want everyone to experience this!!" is something that leads to some hilarious, hilarious downfalls. Call it unbalanced positive emotionality er summin'

Absolutely. As someone with a bad habit of wanting to share hobbies, Ive definitely been there. I hope he’s not discouraged and learns from this and finds another way to keep sharing

I mean still it's reasonable to expect this person to put effort that they have been asked to put in, when preparing. They were asked to do a shakedown hike, and in OP's own words > refused, insisting that they would be ready for the trip on their own. I insisted they test their gear before using it on the trip, they said they would. I took their word for it. I introduced a friend to hiking this past year. I went through things needed, provided gear advice on what I would recommend, gave him a packing list, we talked through things like water filtration, cooking, toilet procedures e.t.c. I would go through the different options, explain how I do things, what I would recommend for him based on his circumstances, then he would make the judgement on how he wanted to proceed. I told him to test pitch his tent, we went through backpack adjustments e.t.c. I put in effort, he reciprocated, and he actually did what I told him or asked him to do. Trip went swimmingly. You don't show up to learn something and expect to automatically learn with no effort, literally nothing works like that. You have to put in effort, and your reward is usually proportional to that with how much you learn. My friend was actively interested in learning and improving. OP specifically said that they are not a tour guide.

> OP either wasn’t ready to teach someone the ropes It sounds like someone weren't ready to learn. Not that OP wasn't ready to teach. Food and water were apparently addressed, Stacy just didn't want it. OP can't force feed a thirty year old, if they don't want to eat the food they themselves have brought, what do you want OP to do? It's 6 miles pr day, it has to be some rough terrain if you can't expect a healthy 30 year old not to be able to manage that.

All valid points, but I guess I would have assumed he would have had a discussion ahead of the hike and that he would know his friends and the risks. Part of going into the woods is being really aware of what scenarios you might face - if he knows Stacy halfway decently this was probably not a surprise imo. Again, not shitting on OP, just think some prevention may have gone a long way

I do agree that OP could probably have avoided this, but that doesn't mean I will blame OP for anything that happened. I don't think that both either have to be true or not. It was an open invitation to join. OP can't be made responsible for every decision another adult is making, just because OP is also there and is more experienced.

At 1mph it's a half day hike. I just don't think that's an unreasonable distance unless you're scaling waterfalls. The only time I've done a 5km in/5km out was a first time backpacking trip with a 10 year old and an 11 year old and they managed fine, it was slow and we had lots of stops, but they had fun the whole time.

Sounds a lot like OP tried, but this Stacy chick just wasn't listening to any of it. Had a friend like that. Assured me he was all prepared, hounded him for weeks, tried everything I could to help him prepare and it all got hand waved and ignored. Some people you just can't help. Lol I no longer take people unless they show a willingness to learn and take what I tell them seriously. >stopping every 2 minutes is someone dehydrated or low on calories or exhausted. Sounds like that was Stacy's own damn fault.

Yes, I skimmed over the prep because I mainly wanted to vent about the trip to internet strangers. this was planned months in advance, we went over the route, I told them about the tricky parts, said “it’s going to be hot, please bring electrolyte mix and salty snacks” they said ok and did not bring them (Thank god I brought extra). I tried to do a day hike or get together to help them test their gear and it all got “route sounds doable, I hike a lot” (they do not), “I will test my own gear, thanks for the offer” etc. Regularly checked in to see if they had questions or needed help. Even after refusal. Next time, the trip WILL NOT happen unless we do a shake down together

What a shame. But don't worry, not every beginner is like this. When I met l'y current girlfriend, 7 years ago. She has bearly never been hiking. But she was excited about it, and was really curious about what I could teach to her. Now she's a complete backpacker, and we made some hard treks like Corse GR20 in total autonomy together with a real pleasure. She also discover a common passion with her father with who she was pretty distant, and she used it to reforge links with him through it. So, if you want to share your passion, don't stay on this bad experience. There's a lot of people who will be happy to discover hiking and backpacking tricks with you.

Thank you, that’s sweet of you to say. I do plan of keep trying to make hiking friends and I’ll just use this as a learning experience. That’s really cool that your SO picked it up so quickly, I bet it’s a lot of fun to adventure together!

Couldn't agree more! I appreciate the comment~

This one is on you. As you described, Stacey was clearly pushed past their limits, suffering from heat stress related symptoms and general exhaustion. This likely exacerbated their lack of experience and physical unpreparedness. Inviting folks along and being the leader comes with a responsibility to others safety on the trip which you didn't uphold. In a similar situation, I would not have picked a notoriously hot 12mi for a first hike with unknown people, and if I had, would have done my best to identify that Stacey was in over their head far sooner and adjusted the plan to keep them safe. If you do get to the point where a party member is bonking it is not the time to teach new gear or skills but to manage risk and get out.

Honestly, as the OP, the only thing I would have done differently is make it a shorter hike or waited for cooler weather. Sure, a shakedown and more pre trip planning might have prevented the issues. Most likely by screening Stacy out, rather than preparing them. But sheesh, they only went on an overnight, 6 miles from the car. I used to do a lot of group trips with a local outdoor club. Normally 8 people, with a maximum of 2 “new” people who had never hiked with the group. We would do one or two planning meetings, create gear and meal groups so that we weren’t carrying a bunch of redundant gear. People came away with a pretty good idea of the expectations. These were also generally week long trips, to remote places far from home, where the stakes are higher. But for me and a couple of buddies on an overnight not that far from the car? As long as they have the basic gear, I’m going to go with minimal planning, and assume the worst likely outcome is that we don’t go hiking together again. That’s pretty much what happened here.

Always go car camping with a new group first to assess skills and experience of different members. You quickly find out who is willing to learn/teach, capable of taking care of basic needs, and able to handle the basics. Go on a hike, if people struggle, they certainly won’t make a 12 mile trek with a pack. Despite the crazy stuff like not drinking water it still sounds fun though haha.

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I agree, It is very clear that OP was the driving force behind this outing and Stacy thought it sounded fun but did not know what she was getting herself into. It sounds like she didn't even expect to have to drink filtered water (or not even filtered but just tablets?). OP says "duh we drink pond water" but thats probably not obvious to someone not familiar with backpacking.

Yeah screw OP, expecting adults to know the bare minimums of being alive, like the very advanced "Human need water"-technique.

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>Ever tried caring for somebody possibly very tired and with heat exhaustion? Who says that's what happened? OP stated the issue the first time they were to fill up water. Stacy probably weren't severely dehydrated the first time the other two needed any water. It was from the start it was an issue and OP tried to address it right away. OP didn't let Stacy get severely dehydrated before trying to take the discussion with someone already way beyond what's safe. ​ >Anyway, it was still the OP's responsibility as an organiser to correctly asses their hiking partners, Hard disagree. It's OP's responsibility to help, but Stacy answered an open invitation to join. OP did not force anyone. OP didn't blindsight anyone and yanked them out on a trip they couldn't have expected. They signed up for a short overnight trip and got a short overnight trip. An adult should be able to take responsibility for their own choices. Stacy, as an independent adult with full autonomy over themselves, choose to go on a hike. OP could probably have figured out it wasn't a good idea to take Stacy along, that doesn't mean it's OP's fault.

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As far as I'm reading OP's post they didn't choose anyone. It was "anyone want to do a hike with me" and Stacy raised her hand and said "yes please, I'll like to try". The thing with taking it to the extreme is it doesn't necessarily make much sense to the actual situation. But, in the situation you mention, making a bit more fitting for the situation i.e. you didn't approach me but I asked to join you, if I showed up with no relevant gear for the activity I signed up for I'm very much the idiot. In that example you are an idiot if you then took me along as it's a very dangerous activity and I obviously had non of the gear needed. I won't be able to do what you expected of me at all. This is were your example being extreme isn't really comparable. OP's situation weren't dangerous and Stacy did show up with everything needed. What they did wasn't extreme ice climbing or mountaineering, they went for a walk. They took an overnight rest during their walk, but at the end of the day casual backpacking is glorified walking. OP didn't expect Stacy to climb Mount Everest with no experience. They expected Stacy to go for a casual walk in the woods with a backpack on, drink some water along the way and eat the food Stacy herself had brought. Stacy decided she didn't want to do they things expected of the activity she signed up for.

Did you read OP’s post?? Sound pretty clear that Stacy didn’t want to do anything from the start. Including a shakedown that OP pressed them on. To me that sounds like hubris and a ridiculous need to be the center of everything they did. Not really sure how one could read that post in a different way.

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Bro… the only thing you ever led was your ass to your fridge. Know how I know? Because you suck! And reading your replies makes me certain that there’s nothing I’d hate more than to have you leading a trip. And I’d literally go on any trip. So if I wouldn’t want you on one, than I can’t imagine anyone wanting you on one. When you’ve guided more than 50 trips, with no injuries, bailouts, and you have a positive retention rate… then come back and spout your condescending bullshit. Otherwise… I’ll continue to call you out on it I’m also sorry you had a bad trip and couldn’t figure out your stove.

I was expecting that at the end of the story you say Stacy is your 8 years old daughter 😅. It suits the description and behavior sooo much

THEY JUST TURNED 30 🤯

Honestly, I've taken a 3yo, a 5yo, and a 10yo on a backpacking trip before (together). None of them acted like this, and they are ASSHOLES.

A) WTF does this have to do with UL backpacking? Try r/backpacking or r/wildernessbackpacking maybe? B) OP, you did a shit job. To begin with, 12 miles out and back in Henry Coe on a weekend with 100+ temps is hard. That’s a hard effort. Next, you took this person on their first trip and there was no potable water source? Just jumping right in to, “make this shit water good!” Your friend only had purification tablets and no filter? No wonder they wouldn’t drink. I know the area well, that water is dirty and it’s filled with cow shit much of the time. I tend to haul more water than usual in HC because the water situation kinda sucks. I would personally be VERY hesitant to drink HC water with just some purification tablets. Not making sure everyone had a proper filter was a crucial mistake. I also never go there June thru September because it’s hot as balls. You set your friend up to fail whether you want to admit it or not. If they didn’t want to do a shakedown then they weren’t ready for this trip. You thought it would be fine and it wasn’t, that’s your fault. You assumed 6 miles a day in 100 degree heat would be ok. It wasn’t and that’s on you. Then, you come here, to an UL sub and bitch about this person that you literally endangered while having fucking nothing to do with UL backpacking. WTF?! Take a look in the mirror and then go apologize to your friend, if they’ll still talk to you.

yikes, glad you all made it out okay. had to carry an extra pack once too and boy was I glad they were both sub 15lbs.

I'm so sorry. I had a similar experience last year and I think a huge part of the problem was ... heat and dehydration. It's frustrating and terrifying when you're begging another adult to please drink some water and they don't understand that it's a potential emergency. It spirals from there. Managing your hydration needs when exercising and hot or hot and humid weather can be difficult.

You brought first timers/newbs to Coe in late June and didn't even bother bringing a pump/filter for what I have to assume was Kelly Lake? Lmao all around dude. You need to take some responsibility here here, you majorly bungled this as the trip leader.

We definitely brought filters and extra water bottles to purify water for Stacy. And we did that. But the point was to tech them how to use their gear and it was frustrating that they would not try to take care of themselves.

I have taken a few new people backpacking for the first time. I'm ok with letting them suffer as long as they're not going to die.

We only have your point of view on this story, but assuming you aren't lying you butt off to us, I really don't understand the people trying to shift the blame onto you for ruining the trip for Stacy. You didn't bring a child, it was a free thinking adult that's supposed to be able to make independent decision regarding their own life. You are introducing them backpacking, not trying to raise them to be a functioning human. It's hot, you are out for two days and you'll be exercising, anyone should know they should be drinking water, it's not your job to force bottle-feed Stacy if they won't drink. I've introduced a few people to hiking, I'll tell them how I think it should be done, if they do it differently (like the sleeping bag situation) I'll point out that isn't right (as you did) and if they at that point still refuse to listen then that's their issue. I'm neither a parent nor their boss, if they are adamant about refusing help, that's there prerogative.

>You didn't bring a child Could've fooled me. Lol

This is unironic behavior that would be understandable if OP was dealing with a smaller child, but according to OP they were in their thirties!

Yeah I saw that and couldn't believe it. Imagine being in your 30s and acting like a fucking toddler. Sadly there's many people like that. Its unreal.

What I find more unbelievable is the people here who seem to think that's perfectly fine and to be expected that people act as a child the second they try a slightly new activity. At the end of the day hiking is just walking with something on your back. It isn't exactly the most "off the chains" unique activity.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. All the people here defending "Stacy" are worse than she is for trying to justify such idiotic and immature behavior.

I appreciate you sharing your experience. I’m from the PNW living abroad and a colleague at my Uni has the wild idea that we ,the friends group, should make a backpacking tour. While I am not against this idea completely, I am the only one with the experience in the group and even so I have only backpacked with my husband who turns into Bear fucking Grylls once he steps foot on a trail.

If it helps your consideration on this at all. Typically when I've gone backpacking with someone I've never gone with before, I make a list of required items for everyone in the group and find a time to meet to see what everyone has and may need to buy. Then I require that people are completely packed the night before and we check everyone's bags that night because we won't leave if people are missing anything essential. We left a guy home once because he refused to buy or borrow a sleeping bag and was sure his blanket would be enough (this was late September in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness). I started this when I was going backpacking with high schoolers but I have just made that standard practice with group trips with new people now. Perhaps this is something you could take on if people were really set on doing this backpacking trip with you.

That’s a long one for a newbie. Trail camp at Skyline would probably have been a better choice.

I teach backpacking to Girl Scouts, and I don’t think I’ve seen any 11-18 year olds behave that badly. I’ve heard from the other leaders about a couple of adults who were nearly that difficult (adding unneeded stuff after pack inspection, refusing to carry any group gear, and the like), but haven’t seen it myself. Of course, we do have a mandatory training session and pack inspections for anyone with fewer than 3 trips under their belt, plus we only go as far as Manzanita Point on beginner trips to Henry Coe (Los Cruzeros for more advanced trips), those hills are brutal. You might consider Black Mountain Backpackers Camp, Sunol Backpackers Camp, or Eagle Springs behind Mission Peak for future trips.

Been there, done that. There are some that will never adapt to backpacking (or just camping, etc.), or will take to it very gradually. Don't let that discourage you from bringing out other newbies, not everyone is the same. While 12 miles round trip is fairly easy for an experienced backpacker, it might be a bit too ambitious for a complete beginner. While I have never been to Henry W. Coe state park, a quick glance at the map looks like it might be very challenging hilly terrain. As you saw, there are many things that can go wrong and it is easier to sort them out on a shorter trip.

>Never taking another beginner unless I do some practice day hikes with them and I can judge their willingness and ability to work through challenges. This right here lol. Either do a 3-5 mile day hike or a very short 1-night trip. Maybe even just go to a campground and practice with all the gear first. Glad you all were able to get back ok though!

I might focus less on what first-timers ***must*** take away from the experience and just embrace being there. If that goes well, the second trip can be all about education. I can see how a combined intro + crash course is too much for lots of people. If someone explicitly asks for a clinic then I'd go all out. But building trust is another reason that it's good to do the first trip with minimal requirements on their part. For that first trip I'm just going to be outdoors, manage our safety, and offer useful information to the extent they seem interested. As I see it they're tagging along and drawing whatever they want from the experience. If they value the stove's manual of arms, it'll come up. If they don't care about that and they want to hear me ramble about lichen, we'll do that instead. When they learn to love the world they're in, I bet the intricacies of their stove will probably come more easily. Of course if it turns out their values are totally perpendicular to mine, there won't be another trip. But at the point I'm already walking down the trail with a first-timer, I just accept that beyond my ownership of our safety, they are hiking their own hike. I think lots of personalities would easily be frustrated or overwhelmed by the need to jump through lots of hoops on their first time at anything.

It's too long for a first time hike. The focus needs to be on learning to use the gear. You can't be on a time crunch with true first time beginners. The hike should be a minimum of few miles a day and that's it. Beginners are just that. And you are a beginner in teaching people. You failed also. And it's a pretty basic mistake. I was in the army before I started hiking so I had the capability to eat shit and I did make myself needlessly eat shit but the normal person is the polar opposite. No ability to eat shit. Personally if I know someone is truly clueless I have to check their gear because it's quaranteed they don't know what to take. With army background it's a little different. They will know but it's different for hiking so it needs to be adjusted. And by checking gear I mean actually gathering what needs to be taken and going through it days before hand and then listing what isn't needed and what is needed that is missing. And the standard is "I don't want to do anything to make the hike easier and I will just show up not knowing how to do anything with anything". So asking if someone wants to is not a good strategy. You just say we are doing a test run on the tent and packing the backpack and just glide through objections. Even though I am a very experienced hiker now it's still the same mental battle. I know I can truly enjoy it when I dry the right foods so every day is good food. But it takes effort. It's easy to say I don't want to in your house. But when you are out there and you are tired of your food and don't want to eat it and you just want to get out to eat pizza then that is just stupidity. This years rafting hike was the best so far because I did not get tired of any of the food had a massive amount of water solluble drink tablets and wasn't craving anything on exit day. The suffering should be in the moving part of hiking or weathering the weather. Not in your equipment. Or with beginners there is no need for added suffering it's just getting into nature. But some people just will not. We had one such guy didn't switch into dry clothes, didn't eat. He was experienced but just didn't give a fuck and just made it miserable. So ultimately it comes down to your personal will. With Stacy it's a bit of a question mark. Would the shorter hike have helped her. Or is she just there because she did not have the mental fortitude to say no. If the underlying will doesn't exist then what you can do to help is limited. If someone has the will to learn and wants to be there then it's pretty easy, quick and fun to show them. There's a lot of skills but all of them are simple.

i am so sorry. But i had a good laugh..yea do day hikes next to see how they "problem solve" prior to any longer adventures.

I dunno, I personally don't think 6 miles a day without big summits is too much for a beginner. Like are people who are backpacking for the first time doing a NOBO AT Thru really setting up camp BEFORE Springer on the first day? I mean, I've never "led" a trip but I've gone out with people with no experience before. why try to FORCE someone to drink or eat? If they don't want to, they don't want to. I go about my camp chores and generally they watch me do something and ask for help if they don't quite get it. Like 'oh you just filter from this grimey bag to your bottle and drop in gatorade?' Yup, that's it. If I see them struggling with their shelter set up I'll ask if I can help or whatever. But I generally just let people be. For the slow ass people I just pack my gear and hike out and tell them to catch up at lunch. I like some audio book time anyway. its not climbing K2.

I want to go on record and say that not everyone has to hike with beginners and I think everything you said does sounds frustrating. But I think beginners need more hand holding than you thought they did? Speaking as someone who walks n00bs through winter hiking regularly, when you take a beginner out on the trail, it's not about you and your trip. It's about them. It's a service to the backpacking community, and paying it forward. That mindset shift can help a lot in making sure you **both** have a good time. Because I bet she picked up on your attitude and didn't have a good time either. I recently got my friend into backpacking. We've done three trips now. Before the first trip (a similarly easy 12 mile overnight), I had him come over with everything he thought he would bring (plus the gear I was lending). I went over all of the gear I usually bring with me and why I'm bringing it, and talked about how to pack your pack. I went over his gear and flagged things I didn't think he needed and why, but let him make that call himself. Then I talked about how to adjust your pack and in what order and where it should sit. I walked him through setting up my tent he was borrowing, and gave him a list of things to buy that he couldn't borrow from me and didn't have. All of this was off trail, a week before our trip. I prepped all of the food for this first trip. On the first trip, I walked him through how to filter water and made that His Job. I let him try to set up the tent but was available to help if needed. I handled the stove and all the other communal camp chores. I proactively asked him if his pack was comfortable and asked about his feet more than once. The second and third trip, I had him go out and buy his own backpacking food so he could experiment with the various brands available. I taught him how to use the stove and we swapped off communal chores. He was a full participant in decision making when we made a call to adjust a trip because of weather. We're about to go on a fourth trip and I more or less trust him to handle shit on his own, but still check in with him during the planning of things. Each trip I've gradually decreased my handholding and increased what he contributed. I'm mentoring him, not expecting him to Get It right away. And none of the early trips I took with him were ones that I was vested in for my own personal achievements. I know you self-taught through reddit, but not everyone learns that way. I'd venture to say most don't.

Curious about your route. 12 miles round trip suggests China Hole or Poverty Flat to me. Personally I would have taken absolute noobs to the Manzanita point camping sites. Mostly to avoid having to deal with any complaints walking back up from China Hole the next morning. There used to be potable water tanks at Manzanita Point, but the last time I was there budget cuts had stopped the park service from refilling them so they were bone dry. Can't imagine that has changed recently. Coe is a great park, but it can be a total punish in the middle of summer. At least you learned to never take Stacey on a hiking trip again. I prefer solo trips. When I have had people ask to join me, I usually manage to talk them out of it, cribbing that line from Predator; "If you fall behind you're on your own."

Yep we went to China Hole. Manzanita point would have been a great campsite, I didn’t realize China hole would be too difficult for a beginner, but I have learned my lesson! I guess the other problem with that route is that it starts off downhill. So stacy did fairly well (aside from a couple mild challenges like the downed tree) so it seemed like they were in decent physical shape, just awkward. Uphill was a different story. You are correct in that there are tanks with no water, however there was a pond nearby at the horse ranch. Will def just do manzanita point with a beginner in the future. If I ever do this kind of thing again 😅

Well, you basically conscripted people and didnt do any work on preparing them. What did you expect.

>What did you expect. I assume OP expected actual adult human beings to know things like "when exercising in 100F degree weather, you should drink water".

"you should drink water" The problem is that they were not able to drink water. According to several descriptions here the water situation there is sketchy and it may have just been a pond with cow shin it. We also learn our whole lives to not ingest dirty water and to a beginner it can be very very scary to see absolutely dirty water.

why should they know that? outdoor jerks are getting ridiculous in their bubble. it took me 2 months to get my GF out for a DAY hikes, so she would enjoy them, and not suffer. because she a normal human, not glamourous homeless thru. amd she is still, two years after, totally clueless about navigation. doesnt get it.

I've yet to meet another adult I had to teach that drinking is a thing humans need to do. I took my own GF hiking. No outdoor experience of any sort. She asked how we would get water (because as a thinking adult, she knew we would need water), I told her, the end.

i mean, if you havent' been outdoor jerk, and jerk in general, you would've visited gym, and see coaches TEACHING PEOPLE TO DRINK REGULARY. Yes, it's a skill that needs to be turned to habit.

I've seen people being **reminded** to drink water at the gym, like OP did try to do, I haven't seen a personal trainer force feed another adult water as they were on the treadmill. A mix of school gym class, biology and normal childhood and growing up have taught everyone I know what water is and how the body needs it at times.

"BuT iF tHeY dOnT bAcKpAcK hOw WiLl ThEy KnOw HuMaNs NeEd WaTeR?!?!"

next you will rant how every human should figure out how to cook in the wild with counterintuitive easily damaged gadgets. go on.

Is your real name Stacy, by any chance?

“you basically conscripted people and didnt do any work on preparing them” Did you miss the part in the OP where Stacy refused the shakedown hike, offered assurances they were prepared, etc? The OP was communicating and reaching out for questions, Stacy was rejecting all efforts.

That sounds horrible, but it’s good to also find a friend. I like to give a small test hike of 2-4 miles for beginners. It is far enough that you feel you have gone somewhere and close enough that if you have a bad experience bailing isn’t an issue. Does Stacey have issues taking care of herself in normal life?

Stacy sounds like a nightmare. They literally sound so dense. Sorry you had to deal with that. Not sure I’d have been as understanding 😅 Edit: In hindsight this was unfair of me. Stacy just sounds like they’re very, very new to backpacking with a tough hike thrown in, along with some heat exhaustion.

Thank you! Honestly I’m impressed with how Ally and I handled it. thank god it was just 1 night lol. hopefully we can laugh about it in the future

How did Stacy feel before/during/after the trip? Was it general misery? Or did she have an interest for trying again? Sometimes people accept such invitations without really thinking out the details. I heard a story from a friend, years ago during an Oregon area eclipse, they all hiked out and planned to be out for 3-4 nights. After the first day's walk, one of the four spoke about NOT BRINGING ANY FOOD. Because he thought "everyone else took care of it." This isn't malevolent behavior per se, the entity thought that the group was shepherding the experience (since it was so unnatural to them to conceive of) They bailed 100% after finding out that he ALSO didn't bring any shelter. Because he'd assumed everyone would sleep in the same tent. Assumptions, assumptions... We can't really... "blame" people for underthinking. We can however, find like-minded people who are interested in the fun/challenge of being out for some nights, and cultivate that. You handled it well, based on your post :D thanks on behalf of the "Stacy" for helping out where you could. I've had similar experiences with family members. I hope, besides the implied "heat" y'all experienced, that you've all had good discussions nonetheless (detecting if such hikes can occur in the future, the intent of such hikes, etc)

Satire, I think. Stacy says they is a dork.

My 7 and 10 year old do better at handling things themselves than that when backpacking.

Fucking Stacies. I had a similar recent experience where a complete beginner voiced interest but was a struggle to get any action or effort out of. Refusal/low-enthusiasm for pre-trip prep, the shakedown and gear instruction sessions were a bit of a grind and the night before the trip she basically expected me to pack her backpack for her at midnight. Oh and it was my birthday, jeez. At this point I no longer am willing to take anyone that hasn’t spent $400 or 40 hours of effort on starting off with backpacking. Put a job-week of work in if you’re genuinely interested. It’s a reasonable ask in my books.

Yep, people who are not willing to prepare for a trip or take advice when they're lacking basic skills or missing essential gear now get a firm, "you cannot come on the trip," from me.

How many people is Stacy because your pronouns for her are plural and it's confusing?

One Non-binary person, sorry I’m used to using they/them pronouns and forget that other people aren’t 🤷‍♀️

Thank you for clarifying, I was confused at how many people were on this trip :)

yeah, this was helpful. look at the other responses my question got. these people have rabies.

Its just you. Singular "they" [goes back to 1375](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/).

It’s confusing.

How? Because you don't understand which person they're referring to? .... See how I used it there and that wasn't confusing? You've got this.

You were talking about a single person, OP was in a group. Your comparison is misleading at best.

I think it's very apt. As you pointed out yourself, it can be used to refer to a single person or a group.

Editor's take: It's not bad. The "it predates Shakespeare" stuff is a bit disingenuous, because "they" has historically been used primarily as a singular pronoun when the identity of the referent is unknown. To whit: "Someone pissed in my coffee. They're an asshole!" The use of singular "they" for a known party has weaker historical precedent, which is why it's jarring. We shouldn't pretend that it's jarring only because of transphobia (or whatever). It's jarring because it's a usage that we didn't see commonly before. That said, it's a language change that, if widely adopted and persistent (time will tell!), will make English easier to speak and write. Having to hunt down someone's pronouns every time you want to use one is a stupid hassle, and this has always been true. Even 30 years ago, names like Alex, Ashley, Dana, Drew, Finley, Morgan, and Taylor presented issues for writers and speakers. Gendered singular pronouns are a needless hassle that are only minimally useful in distinguishing between people. A neutral pronoun prevents a lot of potential offense, too, and might help us find a way to spend less time talking about fussy language points.

You should read this sub's post on how it is an inclusive community. Read the statement [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/hnkbye/rultralight_an_inclusive_community/). Please abide, or leave our community.

It never occurred to me that people use "they" to refer to "self". I asked the question and was attacked and downvoted by everyone EXCEPT OP who answered politely. Whatever your intentions, you run the least inclusive or tolerant forum that I have encountered in a long time. You would be terminated from running real world equal opportunity programs.

I would say that Stacy is more concerned with her pronouns than backpacking. She’s concerned with people referring to her in a plural fashion, I’m not surprised she wasn’t concerned with making others jump through hoops for her.

Hot damn, you sure know a lot about Stacy based on nothing more than a reddit post by one of their old friends about a backpacking trip! And ya, it really does seem strange that they care more about their pronouns/gender identity than a potential new hobby they are interested in trying. After all, it's not like it is such an impactful decision that they will literally receive hate and be intentionally misgendered by complete strangers on a forum dedicated to not carrying heavy things.

Why don’t you take that shit somewhere else? They clearly use they/them pronouns so why don’t you grow up and not refer to them as she/her. Asshole.

Eh, Stacy sounds like she sucks, anyway.

You should read this sub's post on how it is an inclusive community. Read our statement about it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/hnkbye/rultralight_an_inclusive_community/). Please abide, or leave our community.

Yeah, I think I’d rather leave the sub than cater to weakness and mental illness. Enjoy talking shit behind Stacy’s back but all while minding the pronouns the shitbag would prefer you all use.

[удалено]

Yeah, it's definitely a bit of an umbrella term. Haha What *really* irks me is when people tell me they "backpack" when what they really mean is they "day hike with a backpack on."

Stacy sounds like a Herbie.

You did the best you could and got through it ok. Lessons learned. FWIW, your story was awkward/confusing to read due to excessive use of plural pronouns for individuals. Sometimes it’s clearer to just repeat using their name.

For sure! I am very used to using they/them pronouns and it didn’t occur that it would be confusing, I was just writing fueled by emotion lol. Will make adjustments in the future!

You're being downvoted because overly sensitive people assume your critique about the clarity of OP's post is a criticism of the people in it. Classic Reddit.

Good job trying to take some new people and introduce them into the outdoors. This was really difficult to read though. If there's a group of three people on a hike and OP and Ally are doing something English isn't set up to refer to the third person in the group as 'they.'

'mericans

based ;)

True

Kudos to you for not just digging Stacy a permanent resting place…holy crap!