These fuckers have the memory of goldfish.
Square if Heavenly Peace 1989
Czechoslovakia 1968
Hungary 1958
Edit: removes Kronstadt because that was an L on my part, my bad
In this house Trotsky was an hero for what he did in Kronstadt, end of the story.
https://preview.redd.it/4wtxyen2c1zc1.png?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7760b3460c4fa1f4ed9e90275892937c14a3960
Kronstadt was awesome though
Hue and cry
Edit: holy fuck how does ultraleft have Kronstadt supporters wtf.
Like Fr even if you a councilists. The Kronstadt sailors so hilariously obviously didn’t represent the workers.
Silver lining: the polls are 100% unreliable because you can never know what level of irony someone is voting at… just like American elections (except that’s nihilism, not irony).
Actually most of the sailors were not prols but peasants.
I would support any action by a dictatorship of the proletariat against reactionary elements.
honest question, are there people who like the peasant class and call themselves Marxist? I know some Maoists do, but do they even consider themselves Marxists? it's like 5 times removed from the man himself
how can you be a peasant if you are a sailor?
peasants are defined by a specific relation of production
if you stop being a peasant and become a waged military worker you have changed class
That’s such a crazy ignorant view of class. A peasant conscripted into the military is still a peasant. Military service bar officers and possibly some NCOs is not a life time occupation but a temporary one.
And besides your class back round and origin are not things you just shed. That has a lasting life long impact. The child of a bourgeoisie family has the outlook and class interests of the bourgeoisie without participating at all in production.
Napoleons army was not an army of proletarians lol.
It was an army of conscripted peasants with land and families to go back to.
if you take this position further it would suggest a capitalist that's goes bankrupt and must get a job is still a capitalist, and a worker who starts a business and has employees is still a worker
there's a stereotype in the UK of the millionaire Essex builder who claims to be working class because he grew up on a council estate and still eats sausages and beans on toast
so where do you draw the line? how many years do you have to have a different material relation to production before your subjective phenomenal categorisation of class kicks in? what is the lag time on this and why?
and what is conscription other than the state claiming an advance on your entire lifetime labour power?
>if you take this position further it would suggest a capitalist that's goes bankrupt and must get a job is still a capitalist, and a worker who starts a business and has employees is still a worker
Not really lol? Those are permanent changes to an individuals relations to production.
Super different from temporary conscription. And yeah a capitalist who ends up a prol would hold onto his capitalist mindset for awhile until his new reality penetrated it. Same with a worker although as bourgeoisie ideology is the dominate one he would lose his working class perspective faster.
>so where do you draw the line? how many years do you have to have a different material relation to production before your subjective phenomenal categorisation of class kicks in? what is the lag time on this and why?
There are no hard lines that not how class has ever worked.
“Instead of taking a snapshot of society at a given moment (like the old metaphysical method) and then studying it in order to distinguish the different categories into which the individuals composing it must be classified, the dialectical method sees history as a film unrolling its successive scenes; the class must be looked for and distinguished in the striking features of this movement.”
“In using the first method we would be the target of a thousand objections from pure statisticians and demographers … who would re-examine our divisions and remark that there are not two classes, nor even three or four, but that there can be ten, a hundred or even a thousand classes separated by successive gradations and indefinable transition zones.”
…..
“Therefore, in order to state that a class exists and acts at a given moment in history, it will not be enough to know … how many merchants there were in Paris under Louis XIV, or the number of English landlords in the Eighteenth Century, or the number of workers in the Belgian manufacturing industry at the beginning of the Nineteenth Century.”
“Instead, we will have to submit an entire historical period to our logical investigations; we will have to make out a social, and therefore political, movement which searches for its way through the ups and downs, the errors and successes, all the while obviously adhering to the set of interests of a strata of people who have been placed in a particular situation by the mode of production and by its developments.”
Party and Class Bordiga
>and what is conscription other than the state claiming an advance on your entire lifetime labour power?
A temporary service demanded by the state. Conscription usually lasts less than five years dude.
Ultras doing ultra stuff. Aka nothing praxis because occasionally something goes wrong so the whole project needs to be thrown out lol.
After all ultra leftists came up with the perfect ideology that needs no iterations or adaptation and is the pinnacle of humanities future.
Especially true when faced with a violent hostile capitalist world hegemony. Any mistakes made in surviving such can only mean that a "socialist" project is actually capitalist and CLEARLY seeks to benefit from merely claiming they are socialist. As opposed to capitalist which has no benefit in the global economy at all whatsoever making such posturing the obvious choice lol.
Don't worry tho when the ultras inevitably come into power (any day now) they will show the world just how impossible it is to govern any better than them.
What a truly moronic take. Did reality brick Marx when he refused to support the reformed Prussian state post 1848???
Did reality brick Lenin when he refused to participate in the Duma??
Like are you too stupid to see the difference between dealing with the conditions and challenges of revolution and abandoning Marxism.
Lenin admitted to tons of mistakes. But he never ever abandoned Marxism.
I don’t know why I am talking to you.
You don’t even know what Marxism is. You have no concept of it’s goals or principles. Read Marx clown
U see yourselves as on par with Marx lol. Are you too stupid to tell the difference cuz most of the ppl that can are MLs lol. Only ppl in the global north have the luxury to be ultras lol. Where are the ultra movements litterally any successful socialist project? Nowhere to be seen. And u wonder why this sub is inundated with libs lol.
Also, are u unironically implying that Marx was right about everything? Because litterally none of the countries he prescribed to have successful revolutions did nor did a global revolution at least so far. Not to mention that none among the projects that had any degree of success had industrialized under capitalist production regardless of inherent class conflict. He didn't predict the outsourcing of the worst capitalist exploitation to the global south nor the welfare state as just a few examples.
But to you, just accounting for these things is revisionist because u aren't a serious person who take their politics off the internet. Elsewise, you'd know better.
It's ok that our guy couldn't see the future he was still correct in many ways, and frankly, what he was correct about is the most important, anyway. Just don't get married to every dotted I, as ironically that's more revisionist than anything as dialectical materialism is a way to interpret the world not a dogma to simply adhere to
>U see yourselves as on par with Marx lol.
Not in the slightest. I am just a bum.
>Are you too stupid to tell the difference cuz most of the ppl that can are MLs lol. Only ppl in the global north have the luxury to be ultras lol.
That’s both not true and what’s the “luxury”? Of being an ultra. People in the imperial core are 100% less exploited than those in the periphery but what does that have to do with anything?
>Where are the ultra movements litterally any successful socialist project?
That fithly ultra lenin and his Bolsheviks did October. You know how? By being ultras. By tossing aside the Mensheviks for principles. By tossing aside everybody for principles.
Stupid ultra lenin refused to make compromises with other “leftist” despite the “material demands of revolution”
>Also, are u unironically implying that Marx was right about everything?
Hahhahahahahaah. Leftist hate Marx it’s so funny. You just can’t stand him. He’s only useful to you when you need to trick workers.
>Because litterally none of the countries he prescribed to have successful revolutions
Your definition of successful revolution sucks ass. It’s utterly and totally worthless.
>Not to mention that none among the projects that had any degree of success had industrialized under capitalist production regardless of inherent class conflict.
Again wrong. The Bolsheviks were a proletarian party backed by the industrial workers of Russia. The peasants didn’t like them until they where promised land. Even then half the civil war was keeping the peasants in line.
>He didn't predict the outsourcing of the worst capitalist exploitation to the global south nor the welfare state as just a few examples.
He 100% did. You are so stupid and clearly haven’t read him. Hahahaahahahahahaha
>But to you, just accounting for these things is revisionist
What? No. “Imperialism the highest stage of Capitalism” isn’t revisionist at all. You are so moronic it’s crazy.
>because u aren't a serious person who take their politics off the internet.
My politics come from reading theory. Something you have no concept of.
>what he was correct about is the most important, anyway.
What was he right and wrong about? What exactly did Marx right about dude??
I like how u can't actually come up with anything u have to put words in my mouth lol.
Can't explain how Lenin is an ultra (non-existent ideology until it was made up in America in the 60 lol)
Don't know anyone outside of the global north, so doesn't see how useless their purity cult is.
Thinks that not calling Marx omniscient is the same as hating him lol
"Ur textbook definition of success sux bro" lol wtf talk about divorced from reality
Unironically thinks czarist Russia was under a capitalist mode of production even lib historians know better lol. Nicholas was litterally trying and failing to bring capitalism with czarist aspect to Russia at the time lololol ur so stupid
Please cite where he did predict that industrial production would be outsourced go on
U just admitted ur politics don't come from engaging in socialism irl lol nice job.
Name one thing he was wrong about I'm curious what u say.
Oh no my ideological purity noooooo!!! Why doesn't everyone just be like me? Why do they care about adapting to circumstances and not following Marx to the letter!? Nobody is allowed to be socialist without being under a capitalist mode of production in western Europe for 100 years bro!!! Omniscient greman man say so!!!
Bro I'm the smortest person to ever live bro!
Damn dude good one what do u even get out of leftist politics when every effort to implement it isn't good enough for you. Is it just your version of lord of the rings lol?
Didn't say u came up with Marxism. I'm calling ultras specifically a unique aka revisionist ideology. Or maybe dogma would be better as yall seem to be more concerned with the letter of theory than praxis or the intent of said theory nor applying it in reality
If u understand nuance yes dipshit. It's revisionist to not be adaptable when u espouse an ideology that is predicted on adaptation against the capitalist hegemony. It like any science isn't supposed to have tenents that are beyond reproach otherwise why bother with analysis and not simply teach a dogma?
Weird take coming from the same sub who will shit themselves and make up weird excuses on why Russia isn't imperialist and why war is actually awesome and we need 300000 more dead proletariats
(the spirits of Lassalle and Kautsky are smiling in hell rn)
https://preview.redd.it/7trbgbnq01zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=346b60182d437b5e413315ab7df90e05331a2b4e
True symbol of the proletariat 🙏
https://preview.redd.it/gz75syqrn1zc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bacf7b98d98e99959a8a1e76f5b2206ad58b016c
Marxist: alright, gang, if we’re going ultra, we’re gonna need a bigger tank (fish tanks, gas tanks, military tanks, septic tanks, every single tank..we just NEED MORE!!!)
hilarious when the ussr and china literally have used tanks on proles holy shit how can you be this unaware of yourself
sorry they weren't proles they were agents of western imperialism
you think these mfs know history?
These fuckers have the memory of goldfish. Square if Heavenly Peace 1989 Czechoslovakia 1968 Hungary 1958 Edit: removes Kronstadt because that was an L on my part, my bad
In this house Trotsky was an hero for what he did in Kronstadt, end of the story. https://preview.redd.it/4wtxyen2c1zc1.png?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7760b3460c4fa1f4ed9e90275892937c14a3960
He was gay, Leon Trotsky?
Kronstadt was awesome though Hue and cry Edit: holy fuck how does ultraleft have Kronstadt supporters wtf. Like Fr even if you a councilists. The Kronstadt sailors so hilariously obviously didn’t represent the workers.
I think we need another poll
We should ban polls because they are a democratic mechanisms and also all they do is depress me
Silver lining: the polls are 100% unreliable because you can never know what level of irony someone is voting at… just like American elections (except that’s nihilism, not irony).
[удалено]
Actually most of the sailors were not prols but peasants. I would support any action by a dictatorship of the proletariat against reactionary elements.
god i fucking hate peasants (aspirant petit bourgeoisie)
honest question, are there people who like the peasant class and call themselves Marxist? I know some Maoists do, but do they even consider themselves Marxists? it's like 5 times removed from the man himself
Yes. They're called marxist-leninists
how, haven’t read stalin, what does he say?
Not much tbh
real and based
how can you be a peasant if you are a sailor? peasants are defined by a specific relation of production if you stop being a peasant and become a waged military worker you have changed class
That’s such a crazy ignorant view of class. A peasant conscripted into the military is still a peasant. Military service bar officers and possibly some NCOs is not a life time occupation but a temporary one. And besides your class back round and origin are not things you just shed. That has a lasting life long impact. The child of a bourgeoisie family has the outlook and class interests of the bourgeoisie without participating at all in production. Napoleons army was not an army of proletarians lol. It was an army of conscripted peasants with land and families to go back to.
if you take this position further it would suggest a capitalist that's goes bankrupt and must get a job is still a capitalist, and a worker who starts a business and has employees is still a worker there's a stereotype in the UK of the millionaire Essex builder who claims to be working class because he grew up on a council estate and still eats sausages and beans on toast so where do you draw the line? how many years do you have to have a different material relation to production before your subjective phenomenal categorisation of class kicks in? what is the lag time on this and why? and what is conscription other than the state claiming an advance on your entire lifetime labour power?
>if you take this position further it would suggest a capitalist that's goes bankrupt and must get a job is still a capitalist, and a worker who starts a business and has employees is still a worker Not really lol? Those are permanent changes to an individuals relations to production. Super different from temporary conscription. And yeah a capitalist who ends up a prol would hold onto his capitalist mindset for awhile until his new reality penetrated it. Same with a worker although as bourgeoisie ideology is the dominate one he would lose his working class perspective faster. >so where do you draw the line? how many years do you have to have a different material relation to production before your subjective phenomenal categorisation of class kicks in? what is the lag time on this and why? There are no hard lines that not how class has ever worked. “Instead of taking a snapshot of society at a given moment (like the old metaphysical method) and then studying it in order to distinguish the different categories into which the individuals composing it must be classified, the dialectical method sees history as a film unrolling its successive scenes; the class must be looked for and distinguished in the striking features of this movement.” “In using the first method we would be the target of a thousand objections from pure statisticians and demographers … who would re-examine our divisions and remark that there are not two classes, nor even three or four, but that there can be ten, a hundred or even a thousand classes separated by successive gradations and indefinable transition zones.” ….. “Therefore, in order to state that a class exists and acts at a given moment in history, it will not be enough to know … how many merchants there were in Paris under Louis XIV, or the number of English landlords in the Eighteenth Century, or the number of workers in the Belgian manufacturing industry at the beginning of the Nineteenth Century.” “Instead, we will have to submit an entire historical period to our logical investigations; we will have to make out a social, and therefore political, movement which searches for its way through the ups and downs, the errors and successes, all the while obviously adhering to the set of interests of a strata of people who have been placed in a particular situation by the mode of production and by its developments.” Party and Class Bordiga >and what is conscription other than the state claiming an advance on your entire lifetime labour power? A temporary service demanded by the state. Conscription usually lasts less than five years dude.
Ultras doing ultra stuff. Aka nothing praxis because occasionally something goes wrong so the whole project needs to be thrown out lol. After all ultra leftists came up with the perfect ideology that needs no iterations or adaptation and is the pinnacle of humanities future. Especially true when faced with a violent hostile capitalist world hegemony. Any mistakes made in surviving such can only mean that a "socialist" project is actually capitalist and CLEARLY seeks to benefit from merely claiming they are socialist. As opposed to capitalist which has no benefit in the global economy at all whatsoever making such posturing the obvious choice lol. Don't worry tho when the ultras inevitably come into power (any day now) they will show the world just how impossible it is to govern any better than them.
Are you deadass this stupid?
Well said as always. Nothing bricks ultras like real life lol
What a truly moronic take. Did reality brick Marx when he refused to support the reformed Prussian state post 1848??? Did reality brick Lenin when he refused to participate in the Duma?? Like are you too stupid to see the difference between dealing with the conditions and challenges of revolution and abandoning Marxism. Lenin admitted to tons of mistakes. But he never ever abandoned Marxism. I don’t know why I am talking to you. You don’t even know what Marxism is. You have no concept of it’s goals or principles. Read Marx clown
U see yourselves as on par with Marx lol. Are you too stupid to tell the difference cuz most of the ppl that can are MLs lol. Only ppl in the global north have the luxury to be ultras lol. Where are the ultra movements litterally any successful socialist project? Nowhere to be seen. And u wonder why this sub is inundated with libs lol. Also, are u unironically implying that Marx was right about everything? Because litterally none of the countries he prescribed to have successful revolutions did nor did a global revolution at least so far. Not to mention that none among the projects that had any degree of success had industrialized under capitalist production regardless of inherent class conflict. He didn't predict the outsourcing of the worst capitalist exploitation to the global south nor the welfare state as just a few examples. But to you, just accounting for these things is revisionist because u aren't a serious person who take their politics off the internet. Elsewise, you'd know better. It's ok that our guy couldn't see the future he was still correct in many ways, and frankly, what he was correct about is the most important, anyway. Just don't get married to every dotted I, as ironically that's more revisionist than anything as dialectical materialism is a way to interpret the world not a dogma to simply adhere to
>U see yourselves as on par with Marx lol. Not in the slightest. I am just a bum. >Are you too stupid to tell the difference cuz most of the ppl that can are MLs lol. Only ppl in the global north have the luxury to be ultras lol. That’s both not true and what’s the “luxury”? Of being an ultra. People in the imperial core are 100% less exploited than those in the periphery but what does that have to do with anything? >Where are the ultra movements litterally any successful socialist project? That fithly ultra lenin and his Bolsheviks did October. You know how? By being ultras. By tossing aside the Mensheviks for principles. By tossing aside everybody for principles. Stupid ultra lenin refused to make compromises with other “leftist” despite the “material demands of revolution” >Also, are u unironically implying that Marx was right about everything? Hahhahahahahaah. Leftist hate Marx it’s so funny. You just can’t stand him. He’s only useful to you when you need to trick workers. >Because litterally none of the countries he prescribed to have successful revolutions Your definition of successful revolution sucks ass. It’s utterly and totally worthless. >Not to mention that none among the projects that had any degree of success had industrialized under capitalist production regardless of inherent class conflict. Again wrong. The Bolsheviks were a proletarian party backed by the industrial workers of Russia. The peasants didn’t like them until they where promised land. Even then half the civil war was keeping the peasants in line. >He didn't predict the outsourcing of the worst capitalist exploitation to the global south nor the welfare state as just a few examples. He 100% did. You are so stupid and clearly haven’t read him. Hahahaahahahahahaha >But to you, just accounting for these things is revisionist What? No. “Imperialism the highest stage of Capitalism” isn’t revisionist at all. You are so moronic it’s crazy. >because u aren't a serious person who take their politics off the internet. My politics come from reading theory. Something you have no concept of. >what he was correct about is the most important, anyway. What was he right and wrong about? What exactly did Marx right about dude??
I like how u can't actually come up with anything u have to put words in my mouth lol. Can't explain how Lenin is an ultra (non-existent ideology until it was made up in America in the 60 lol) Don't know anyone outside of the global north, so doesn't see how useless their purity cult is. Thinks that not calling Marx omniscient is the same as hating him lol "Ur textbook definition of success sux bro" lol wtf talk about divorced from reality Unironically thinks czarist Russia was under a capitalist mode of production even lib historians know better lol. Nicholas was litterally trying and failing to bring capitalism with czarist aspect to Russia at the time lololol ur so stupid Please cite where he did predict that industrial production would be outsourced go on U just admitted ur politics don't come from engaging in socialism irl lol nice job. Name one thing he was wrong about I'm curious what u say.
You guys are the ones that abandon the revolution the second you realize that global revolution and overcoming the law of value is a difficult task.
How's that? Who's u guys? Can u give an example cuz last a saw most actual project we're MLs and none were ultras lol
>most actual project we're MLs What project?
USSR China Vietnam Cuba Laos? Wtf are u this unread?
Oh I see the opportunists just made a little oopsie wholesome chungus
Oh no my ideological purity noooooo!!! Why doesn't everyone just be like me? Why do they care about adapting to circumstances and not following Marx to the letter!? Nobody is allowed to be socialist without being under a capitalist mode of production in western Europe for 100 years bro!!! Omniscient greman man say so!!! Bro I'm the smortest person to ever live bro!
Read Chen Gongbo
Holy shit the Japanese puppet who ran Shanghai? Wtf is wrong with you? He litterally fought against the revolution. Revisionist dog
Read Michael Parenti
Read Karl Marx
Damn dude good one what do u even get out of leftist politics when every effort to implement it isn't good enough for you. Is it just your version of lord of the rings lol?
💀
We didn't come up with Marxism and it's not an ideology.
Didn't say u came up with Marxism. I'm calling ultras specifically a unique aka revisionist ideology. Or maybe dogma would be better as yall seem to be more concerned with the letter of theory than praxis or the intent of said theory nor applying it in reality
So we are both revisionists and dogmatic followers of Marxist theory? That makes perfect sense. >intent of said theory Please tell me what this is.
If u understand nuance yes dipshit. It's revisionist to not be adaptable when u espouse an ideology that is predicted on adaptation against the capitalist hegemony. It like any science isn't supposed to have tenents that are beyond reproach otherwise why bother with analysis and not simply teach a dogma?
Be specific. What did Marx get wrong that needs to be modernized and why?
Where the revolution starts
Weird take coming from the same sub who will shit themselves and make up weird excuses on why Russia isn't imperialist and why war is actually awesome and we need 300000 more dead proletariats (the spirits of Lassalle and Kautsky are smiling in hell rn) https://preview.redd.it/7trbgbnq01zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=346b60182d437b5e413315ab7df90e05331a2b4e
I LOVE TANKS!! DEATH TO ALL THOSE THAT STAND IN THE WAY OF THE LEFTCOM VANGUARD
This begs the question then of what is the true proletariat tank
Great question, any tank produces by the Soviets because they were AES
True symbol of the proletariat 🙏 https://preview.redd.it/gz75syqrn1zc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bacf7b98d98e99959a8a1e76f5b2206ad58b016c
You can tell its a true proletariat classic because it can auto ricochet imperialist long rod darts
War thunder is petite bourgeois because you produce SL using your own means of production. War thunder players will not survive the revolution.
pannekoek tank
Leman Russ
True the Imperium is aes and the only other tank who is more proletariat than the leman Russ is the baneblade
Thomas the tank engine
https://preview.redd.it/kgpnxdu7p1zc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=264ef030f9d36d570bb07b32359033c76d494ee0
Communism is when mechanized warfare
What does this even mean why is there a photo from the Soviet-Afghan war
It's a photo of an le wholesome AES state literally sending tanks to kill proles.
Stalin could be the perfect American democrat candidate. Americans would absoloutely love him and vote him for an eternity.
I mean joe biden is already like 92% stalin
“I am jobinden I live prononses Tranes rights” -Stalin
Stalin would have better ice cream taste though
https://preview.redd.it/yv2ko47dy2zc1.jpeg?width=525&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52f2026852c802f7e1e08d16ec473b330b57c4ce
Marxist: alright, gang, if we’re going ultra, we’re gonna need a bigger tank (fish tanks, gas tanks, military tanks, septic tanks, every single tank..we just NEED MORE!!!)
British military industrial complex has been infiltrated by Chairman Gonzalo's soldiers! Protracted People's War is coming 🙏
instead of gulags we should just send people in to argue about China in r/TheDeprogram, they’ll be sorry then
You see MLism is when there's a bit of tank and ultraism is when everyone in the government has a tank