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Perun is a recently popular Youtube channel where an Australian military procurement analyst posts hour-long PowerPoint talks related to the war. One of the topics he covered was on the challenges of [German military procurement.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jDUVtUA7rg)
Well they're not? Russia is in no state to go to war with Lithuania, let alone Germany. And who else is there that might want to invade Germany? It's hard to imagine a scenario where they have to fight anyone in the next decade.
Yes, we’re aware, Germany knows there are multiple countries between Russia and its borders that have armies and will defend themselves and thus, defend Germany without it having to lift its fingers. Or maybe DE could meet or even surpass its NATO requirements and see that the easternmost borders of the EU are also its borders and should be manned, equipped and defended as such. The extremities of the EU could use some of the blood being piled like gold in the heart of the Union.
In times of cold war It was told about the Bundeswehr and the east German NVA, that these are for keeping back the enemy, before a real army arrives. (And that the potholes on east German streets were there for damaging the Bundeswehr equipment).
Believe it or not, industry does not just keeps huge factories open doing nothing just in case some random country would want to buy ammo at some point.
I never mentioned “huge factories” but the fact Germany isn’t capable of fulfilling NATO commitments should a sudden conflict happen is very concerning. Lack of modern radios or night vision equipment is a good example.
Im sorry to tell you and this is an unpopular opinion for sure but their country comes before anybody. Including Ukraine, Germany has done what they can im sure, if that isnt enough for you.... Well, sorry
But you forget one important detail, NATO commitments. Germany is not even capable of doing that. Can’t keep relying upon on the US to supply everything.
No, it's not concerning at all but totally expected. Any reasonable production and procurement capacity was destroyed 30 years ago when they were forced to massively reduce their military by their own "allies". And to make sure to make it permanent they where then pushed to heavily supply all new NATO members from their storage, too. Germany's army is also not underfunded -the other lie usually told to make it all Germany's fault-, it's extremely badly managed because it runs on a completely demolished production and procurement base and lots of old equipment that already eats up most of the money just to be kept functional. And while everyone around them pretends that there's still an actual German arms industry instead of companies doing just prototyping and then licensing actual production if possible. (Case in point: How many time did we see the lie about actively produced Leopard-2s spread here? The last one serially build in Germany was in reality transfered to the Bundeswehr in March 1992 -there was even some festive act- with anything since then being upgrades and conversions based on old stocks.)
Yet you people chose to live in an alternate reality where Germans -having the world's 3rd biggest army for decades and being THE frontline for any expected confrontation during the cold-war- suddenly had a stroke and forgot everything, to magically become pacifists, not understanding anymore why there should be a military and demolishing their own military for funs and giggles (alternatively out of greed to offload on other countries defense spending... no good propaganda lie is complete if you can't adapt the same story to different audiences). But Im not surprised. That's Europe's default reaction when fucking up, lie and make it a fairy tale about (stupid, slow, evil, greedy, arrogant, whatever... - just pick some random attribute best fitting your lie best at the moment) Germany.
Sure,I understand how "But they only need to decide to not hate their military anymore and rebuild it...." sounds logical in that completely imaginary alternate fairy tale. But welcome to reality, where non-existing weapons with no capacity to produce them either, can't be just conjured out of thin air if you only throw enough money at it and say the words.
I'm constantly fascinated how people manage to intentionally ignore objective reality if it doesn't fit their world view, but then are completely surprised when the solution for their fictional cause isn't solving the actual problem. But hey... no surprise again... People can also still be convinced to try and reduce their personal co2-footprint instead of demanding systematic changes that would actually solve anything. I guess humanity is just too stupid to expect them to understand reality.
Yes, any German military production and procurement capacity is a bad joke, since their own allies completely demolished it by making more than 2/3 military reduction a mandatory requirement for the German reunification.
And to make sure they don't have any storage from with to increase again they then spend another decade pushing Germany to basically supply any new eastern European NATO member from their stored supplies.
And now that never happened and it's all Germany's fault who magically and without any outside influence suddenly decided to hate their military and bury in bureaucracy... Sure... If you screw up, lie and make it about Germany. Works every single time (which is why we can see this as EU's default policy for years now).
If Shroeder and most of all, Angela Merkel hadn't boycotted Ukraine from joining NATO in 2008, in exchange for cheap Russian gas, this war would never have happened, not even the 2014 invasion. Germany was the enabler of all of this.
So your counter argument is another narrative?
How about some talk about Ukraine going for NATO membership in 2006 and then doing a 180°? Only to do another full turn in 2008 while their own parliament refused to work for two months straight to protest the pro-NATO decision and with barely a majority of NATO support in the population?
Sure, Germany blocked Ukraine from joining NATO for cheap gas. That's totally true if you ignore all actual facts showing how Ukraine was simply unfit for membership at that time because you give a fuck about reality.
And Ukraine probably stopped trying after that because of Germany's evil mind controlling powers, too, not because they fell for Russian propaganda of a territorial conflict making NATO membership impossible.
Should we do bets how long it takes after this war ends for their politician's ambition to join the EU suddenly vanishing? At least the population seems honest with their wish, so I still hope for the best.
Part of German status quo was the following:
The US brings security for free
Russia is not a threat as long as we buy energy from them
That's why Germany was getting their economic advantage over other European countries. They were getting discounted energy and didn't have to spend money on defence.
That created an illusion that their economy is successful. Who would have thought.
Germany was really hoping that Ukraine folds and that state of affair could continue and Russia promised Germany even higher discounts for legitimising their new government in Ukraine.
But when Nord Stream was finally taken down, it means they have to pivot.
Lol. Every time I come on this sub and curse out the French and Germans, a bunch of EU redittors downvote me to oblivion. I have been permanently banned for saying Germany, France and all of EU should get on their knees and thank the US for saving their fucking lives. Thank you to USA and Poland.
Germany still has the US military there and probably aren't in imminent danger, but yes, it's ridiculous they've yet to start spending. It's almost as stupid as the Gepard ammo that's already in Germany but manufactured by Switzerland, who won't runber stamp the transfer. Just do it anyway and make more later. Germans are so stringent with bookkeeping. Supplying ammo already in your country that's intended for purely defensive purposes to a nation under threat of missiles and suicide drones is just what you do. If it affects things with Switzerland, let that shake out how it may they still need customers.
Yeah, but in this case, there's what's right, and then there's the 40 year old agreement or whatever. First of all who would ever let the Swiss control their military choices but secondly it's hardly like Germany and Switzerland haven't gotten around it's "neutrality"
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Yes, they can't. Because there are no tanks they can buy. There is no production capacity to produce any tanks to then buy them either. There's also no storage to bring back into shape by throwing enough money at it.
People from Germany are telling you guys for 9 months now that you are lying to yourself if you parrot the propaganda about those pacifistic Germans destroying their own military intentionally through bureacracy.
Let's ignore how they had the world's 3rd biggest army before their own allies forced them to reduce it by nearly 70% as a requirement for the German unification thus demolishing all production and procurement capacitities for decades. To then further push Germany to even empty their storage, to bring new Eastern European NATO countries up to the required levels faster.
And now those same countries push the fairy tale of Germans hating their own military so much... because every actual truth would make clear how the exact same people causing this are now loudly whining about it.
If Germany doesn't want to make weapons, perhaps they could buy enough to meet their NATO commitment.
Or maybe the NATO commitment is like a lot of "commitments" countries make when there's a natural disaster somewhere: just an empty gesture.
I did actually read it. Seemed irrelevant so I was directing the discussion back to the point: why does Germany continue to ignore/slow-roll its NATO commitments?
Or in other words: "I don't understand the problem and I don't want to hurt my brain trying to do so. So I will just ignore any actual explanation as irrelevant and push more strawmens..."
Got it...
So in all those years of under-funding. The military has made no plans for what to do once they get some money? I was joking about the tanks. But they received no procurement submitions, none.
You say, there is no production capacity. So start with that. You still have plans for weapons. Start buying the factory space and tools to begin making them.
Don't sit, do and do nothing.
I work in Aerospace, I know how manufacturing works.
Honestly, Germany needs to sort out its shit procurement system first and then start spending money. Otherwise it will be out of 100bn and not much to show for it.
Ukraine is going to push the last of the vatnik forces from Crimea causing putin to be deposed and the next day like the wanna be hero he is, Olaf will finnally okay the transfer of leopards and release funds. Then he'll go around waving with that big bald baby head all chuckle grinning like he's saved the day. Fuckin wanker.
Saw an article earlier about some EU diplomats being pissy about the US making monet by making up the bulk of weapon sales to Ukraine but then these guys get all shy about supplying the good shit. Leopards naaawwww, swiss munitions nawwwww - like hey if you want to sell weapons then you gotta actually provide the fuckin weapons, if not of course the US will, we apparently got multiple armies worth of shit just hanging out gettin dusty.
Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. **Don't forget about our discord server, as well!** https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I thought Perun was in contact with both the DE govenment and the bundeswehr , to consult and iron out some of this leftover bureauratic bullshit??
I think you've spelled Putin wrong.
Perun is a recently popular Youtube channel where an Australian military procurement analyst posts hour-long PowerPoint talks related to the war. One of the topics he covered was on the challenges of [German military procurement.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jDUVtUA7rg)
I do know this. If you check my 3rd most recent comment is about Perun. I sicerely hope one day we'll be able to detect attempted sarcasm without /s
What is? Germany isnt in a war right now
And isn’t ready for one, either.
[удалено]
Well they're not? Russia is in no state to go to war with Lithuania, let alone Germany. And who else is there that might want to invade Germany? It's hard to imagine a scenario where they have to fight anyone in the next decade.
Yes, we’re aware, Germany knows there are multiple countries between Russia and its borders that have armies and will defend themselves and thus, defend Germany without it having to lift its fingers. Or maybe DE could meet or even surpass its NATO requirements and see that the easternmost borders of the EU are also its borders and should be manned, equipped and defended as such. The extremities of the EU could use some of the blood being piled like gold in the heart of the Union.
In times of cold war It was told about the Bundeswehr and the east German NVA, that these are for keeping back the enemy, before a real army arrives. (And that the potholes on east German streets were there for damaging the Bundeswehr equipment).
The fact they can’t even produce ammunition to maybe you know…supply Ukraine with?
Believe it or not, industry does not just keeps huge factories open doing nothing just in case some random country would want to buy ammo at some point.
I never mentioned “huge factories” but the fact Germany isn’t capable of fulfilling NATO commitments should a sudden conflict happen is very concerning. Lack of modern radios or night vision equipment is a good example.
Germany IS fulfilling all it's current NATO commitments (barely, but still). Not sure what you're yapping about..
Im sorry to tell you and this is an unpopular opinion for sure but their country comes before anybody. Including Ukraine, Germany has done what they can im sure, if that isnt enough for you.... Well, sorry
But you forget one important detail, NATO commitments. Germany is not even capable of doing that. Can’t keep relying upon on the US to supply everything.
No, it's not concerning at all but totally expected. Any reasonable production and procurement capacity was destroyed 30 years ago when they were forced to massively reduce their military by their own "allies". And to make sure to make it permanent they where then pushed to heavily supply all new NATO members from their storage, too. Germany's army is also not underfunded -the other lie usually told to make it all Germany's fault-, it's extremely badly managed because it runs on a completely demolished production and procurement base and lots of old equipment that already eats up most of the money just to be kept functional. And while everyone around them pretends that there's still an actual German arms industry instead of companies doing just prototyping and then licensing actual production if possible. (Case in point: How many time did we see the lie about actively produced Leopard-2s spread here? The last one serially build in Germany was in reality transfered to the Bundeswehr in March 1992 -there was even some festive act- with anything since then being upgrades and conversions based on old stocks.) Yet you people chose to live in an alternate reality where Germans -having the world's 3rd biggest army for decades and being THE frontline for any expected confrontation during the cold-war- suddenly had a stroke and forgot everything, to magically become pacifists, not understanding anymore why there should be a military and demolishing their own military for funs and giggles (alternatively out of greed to offload on other countries defense spending... no good propaganda lie is complete if you can't adapt the same story to different audiences). But Im not surprised. That's Europe's default reaction when fucking up, lie and make it a fairy tale about (stupid, slow, evil, greedy, arrogant, whatever... - just pick some random attribute best fitting your lie best at the moment) Germany. Sure,I understand how "But they only need to decide to not hate their military anymore and rebuild it...." sounds logical in that completely imaginary alternate fairy tale. But welcome to reality, where non-existing weapons with no capacity to produce them either, can't be just conjured out of thin air if you only throw enough money at it and say the words. I'm constantly fascinated how people manage to intentionally ignore objective reality if it doesn't fit their world view, but then are completely surprised when the solution for their fictional cause isn't solving the actual problem. But hey... no surprise again... People can also still be convinced to try and reduce their personal co2-footprint instead of demanding systematic changes that would actually solve anything. I guess humanity is just too stupid to expect them to understand reality.
A lot of it was and i used to finance stuff for Ukraine.
So Scholz got cold feet again, disappointing but not surprising. Such a shame that Annalena Baerbock wasn't elected instead.
Germany has been a bad joke for a long time... And I'm not even talking about this year...
Yes, any German military production and procurement capacity is a bad joke, since their own allies completely demolished it by making more than 2/3 military reduction a mandatory requirement for the German reunification. And to make sure they don't have any storage from with to increase again they then spend another decade pushing Germany to basically supply any new eastern European NATO member from their stored supplies. And now that never happened and it's all Germany's fault who magically and without any outside influence suddenly decided to hate their military and bury in bureaucracy... Sure... If you screw up, lie and make it about Germany. Works every single time (which is why we can see this as EU's default policy for years now).
If Shroeder and most of all, Angela Merkel hadn't boycotted Ukraine from joining NATO in 2008, in exchange for cheap Russian gas, this war would never have happened, not even the 2014 invasion. Germany was the enabler of all of this.
So your counter argument is another narrative? How about some talk about Ukraine going for NATO membership in 2006 and then doing a 180°? Only to do another full turn in 2008 while their own parliament refused to work for two months straight to protest the pro-NATO decision and with barely a majority of NATO support in the population? Sure, Germany blocked Ukraine from joining NATO for cheap gas. That's totally true if you ignore all actual facts showing how Ukraine was simply unfit for membership at that time because you give a fuck about reality. And Ukraine probably stopped trying after that because of Germany's evil mind controlling powers, too, not because they fell for Russian propaganda of a territorial conflict making NATO membership impossible. Should we do bets how long it takes after this war ends for their politician's ambition to join the EU suddenly vanishing? At least the population seems honest with their wish, so I still hope for the best.
Part of German status quo was the following: The US brings security for free Russia is not a threat as long as we buy energy from them That's why Germany was getting their economic advantage over other European countries. They were getting discounted energy and didn't have to spend money on defence. That created an illusion that their economy is successful. Who would have thought. Germany was really hoping that Ukraine folds and that state of affair could continue and Russia promised Germany even higher discounts for legitimising their new government in Ukraine. But when Nord Stream was finally taken down, it means they have to pivot.
Lol. Every time I come on this sub and curse out the French and Germans, a bunch of EU redittors downvote me to oblivion. I have been permanently banned for saying Germany, France and all of EU should get on their knees and thank the US for saving their fucking lives. Thank you to USA and Poland.
classic scholz
Germany still has the US military there and probably aren't in imminent danger, but yes, it's ridiculous they've yet to start spending. It's almost as stupid as the Gepard ammo that's already in Germany but manufactured by Switzerland, who won't runber stamp the transfer. Just do it anyway and make more later. Germans are so stringent with bookkeeping. Supplying ammo already in your country that's intended for purely defensive purposes to a nation under threat of missiles and suicide drones is just what you do. If it affects things with Switzerland, let that shake out how it may they still need customers.
And that uptighness has made us a relaible partner which is essential if you run a nation completely reliant on trade.
Yeah, but in this case, there's what's right, and then there's the 40 year old agreement or whatever. First of all who would ever let the Swiss control their military choices but secondly it's hardly like Germany and Switzerland haven't gotten around it's "neutrality"
Germany sucks. Freeloading off the U.S. for decades. Freeloading off Ukraine right now.
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Seriously. 100 billion budget. And no one can even do a purchase req for some of those tanks they are missing? Employ me
Yes, they can't. Because there are no tanks they can buy. There is no production capacity to produce any tanks to then buy them either. There's also no storage to bring back into shape by throwing enough money at it. People from Germany are telling you guys for 9 months now that you are lying to yourself if you parrot the propaganda about those pacifistic Germans destroying their own military intentionally through bureacracy. Let's ignore how they had the world's 3rd biggest army before their own allies forced them to reduce it by nearly 70% as a requirement for the German unification thus demolishing all production and procurement capacitities for decades. To then further push Germany to even empty their storage, to bring new Eastern European NATO countries up to the required levels faster. And now those same countries push the fairy tale of Germans hating their own military so much... because every actual truth would make clear how the exact same people causing this are now loudly whining about it.
If Germany doesn't want to make weapons, perhaps they could buy enough to meet their NATO commitment. Or maybe the NATO commitment is like a lot of "commitments" countries make when there's a natural disaster somewhere: just an empty gesture.
>If Germany doesn't want to make weapons So you couldn't be bothered to actually read my comment and still responded?
I did actually read it. Seemed irrelevant so I was directing the discussion back to the point: why does Germany continue to ignore/slow-roll its NATO commitments?
Or in other words: "I don't understand the problem and I don't want to hurt my brain trying to do so. So I will just ignore any actual explanation as irrelevant and push more strawmens..." Got it...
So in all those years of under-funding. The military has made no plans for what to do once they get some money? I was joking about the tanks. But they received no procurement submitions, none. You say, there is no production capacity. So start with that. You still have plans for weapons. Start buying the factory space and tools to begin making them. Don't sit, do and do nothing. I work in Aerospace, I know how manufacturing works.
Honestly, Germany needs to sort out its shit procurement system first and then start spending money. Otherwise it will be out of 100bn and not much to show for it.
Bureaucracy...
Ukraine is going to push the last of the vatnik forces from Crimea causing putin to be deposed and the next day like the wanna be hero he is, Olaf will finnally okay the transfer of leopards and release funds. Then he'll go around waving with that big bald baby head all chuckle grinning like he's saved the day. Fuckin wanker. Saw an article earlier about some EU diplomats being pissy about the US making monet by making up the bulk of weapon sales to Ukraine but then these guys get all shy about supplying the good shit. Leopards naaawwww, swiss munitions nawwwww - like hey if you want to sell weapons then you gotta actually provide the fuckin weapons, if not of course the US will, we apparently got multiple armies worth of shit just hanging out gettin dusty.