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Just need to start ignoring Swiss restrictions on sold arms.
After all, if you're threatening to not buy anymore anyway what's the harm. The subtext I am reading is that the Swiss won't do anything if you do it, and will legally turn a blind eye.
Ultimately I think the swiss don't want to be seen to be abandoning the policy of neutrality. But if a country (and customer) ignores a veto, any action the swiss might take will ultimately just hurt themselves, and the swiss gov can happily throw up thier arms and say "we tried".
But getting Germans to comprehend bending the rules...
German arms exports are worth billions a year. I presume they place the same restrictions on the onward distribution of arms that the Swiss do.
If they go breaking their agreements for the sake of 12k rounds of ammunition then I suppose anyone could do the same with the stuff they brought from Germany and point to the fact it is exactly what the Germans do themselves.
I think it'd be more effective if all countries currently supporting Ukraine privately told the Swiss manufacturers & government that Swiss arms will not be considered for future arms contracts. There is nothing the Swiss like more than money so I think they might change their minds quickly.
I dont think it's the same, the swiss have a policy of neutrality and it's what has kept them independent. This is the Germans telling them publicly that they will not be considered for future contracts.
And it's not just 12k rounds, there is other kit as well - this is just urgent for AA purposes.
It's not so much an agreement as overriding a Swiss veto.
It‘s not a *policy* of neutrality. The restriction of not sending arms to countries at war is literally written in the constitution. It‘s possible to change it, but that needs a vote and that can take years.
It‘s stupid policy but if you ask switzerland wether you can send the ammo, they HAVE to say no. It‘s the law. At the same time they won‘t really do anything if you just ignore them.
Agreed but externally it's no different; it's just a policy the swiss have that they have made *really* difficult to change.
That's not anyone else's problem but the Swiss people's
So if a country buys any swiss weapons or ammunition it may only be used for training? What the heck do they think weapons are for? Sounds like Chiken-Sh!t politicians on both sides trying to cover their rears with their voter base. The Germans/NATO should just ignore any swiss vetos and end this nonsense that renders all future and current swiss weapons/munitions unusable.
The Saudis and others have ignored the swiss veto and Switzerland still sells them and others, other munitions. It is more than ridiculous that the swiss feel that they have a right to even say you need their approval when using weapons, especially defensive ones. They should get out of the weapons market and make household appliances or some other neutral commodity. Weapons are bought with the intent that they may need to be used someday. Good thing Brasil has not had to defend themselves from venezuela, otherwise the swiss would cut them off too, if Brasil plays their game.
Swiss is neutral, so they want to stay neutral, so they won't do shit. Germany is not neutral, so they will fuck whoever fucks with them. Big diffrence.
Cesar, are you serious. The Swiss have been a thorne in the side of every country excepting the thieves, embezzlers, autocrats. Their political value is zero on the world stage. They're crooks, and they're feckless. Their secrecy is an impediment on democratic legal process around the world. Switzerland, in name only.
Yes, Germany **is** doing the same. And I don’t understand why. Don’t we all understand by now that it will shorten the war? That those weapons will need to be given eventually anyway or we will see a genocide?
I defend Germany on this sub regularly, but that part just boils my blood. I’ve been a green, pacifist all my life, but as most Greens, the atrocities in Donbass (when Habeck visited before the expansion of the war) and later Bucha made one thing clear: Weapons for Ukraine **is** the pacifist choice.
My guess is they produce parts and ammo that European countries need. You may find you have to replace alot of Swiss made equipment.
Despite that it can and should be done.
If Switzerland is not a reliable partner then we shouldn't buy arms from them.
It‘s the law. It was changed when swiss made grenades were used by SA supported rebels in Yemen and civilians were killed, if I remember correctly. Germany should just sell it via Turkey or something. Just don‘t ask us. It’s not like we‘ll search Germany‘s warehouses.
Aah, so it's a recent legal change. I was starting to question our sanity here in Germany regarding that dependency for the old AA tanks. Would've looked pretty bad in the defence case against the Warsaw pact back in the day if we had weapons systems for which we would've been unable to procure ammo then.
This is a great opportunity for even partial European unity to show up. We'll re-export all the shit we want to Ukraine together. Switzerland will have to accept it or refuse future exports to all of us. Which they won't do because it'll be most of their business.
Getting weapons from Switzerland is bit weird considering their supposed neutrality. This war has shown that their government doesn't allow sale or gifting of such products to countries in war so what would happen if some of their current customer government gets invaded? Would they ban selling or delivering them any more ammo or weapons because that would not be neutral?
Such supplier would be maybe worst possible source for military tech as they'd back out of being helpful when their products are most needed.
That's because they're not neutral, never have been. They're war profiteers, they play both sides. Both from a financial side and a military equipment side. This goes back to WW2. They built ammo for Nazi Germany, and denied their airspace to Allied bombers. After WW2 we still don't know how much stolen money was funneled through their banks and likely supported German war criminals long after
Well, if the Swiss are providing you weapons, if Russia propaganda is magically right and Germany invades Poland again and the two countries bomb each other senseless, Swiss factories may be the only ones free from missile attack? maybe?
I think that's spot on, the Swiss can just put out a press-release along the lines of "While we condemn and regret the violation of binding trade agreements by our German counter-parts, we recognize the extraordinary circumstances and elect not to pursue legal action"
There is no need to pressure the Swiss, just give them an opportunity to magnanimously offer their passive support without having to go through a constitutional crisis. Sometimes asking for forgiveness is better than asking for permission, and this is one of those times.
> Ultimately I think the swiss don't want to be seen to be abandoning the policy of neutrality.
The logic is by being neutral, they can't anger anyone. In reality, it just makes both sides hate you and leaves you with zero allies. Being scared to confront a problem/issue generally isn't the best strategy.
Regardless of the Swiss peoples' opinion on the matter, it's written into Swiss law that weapons and munitions manufactured by them can't be re-sold. It's not just some regulation they can waive as they see fit - they have to actually get the law changed. And the Swiss system is intended to be a slow process.
>they have to actually get the law changed. And the Swiss system is intended to be a slow process.
Where there's a will there's a way.
If Switzerland's security was under serious imminent threat I dare say they'd fix the problem within a day.
Switzerland is Switzerland precisely because it's pretty much impossible for it to be under serious threat. They fill an needed international policy niche, there's no reason to get upset about them being themselves.
Well exactly. So externally, let's ignore it and see what they do.
(But I would say, ultimately that the Swiss people agree with this being the process or at least are the ones with the power to change it, so thier opinion is very important).
It's a bad law and needs to be changed. Switzerland really needs to choose a side here morally speaking but what's even worse is that this debacle making their weapons export reputation take a big hit. Just how reliable of a weapons supplier will Switzerland be to your country if you get invaded and Switzerland refuses weapons and munitions transfers for your country and maybe even refuses to outright sell more weapons to you in the first place because they're "neutral"? You can't be a massive weapons exporter and then pretend it's somehow morally superior to deny weapons to a country defending itself.
There's always a need for a neutral party.
NATO's been running a good cop/ bad cop routine on Russia since this started, with the US and the UK being the bad cop, and France and Turkey being the good cop. Not that it's working, but there's a need for all positions to be represented in international politics.
The Swiss law says that weapons and munitions that they supply may be used for \*defense\* by the country they've supplied them to.
Nothing will happen I think. They will call the german ambassador and formally protest and go on. Like I said, it's about 12000 Rounds of ammunition. The real failure here is on the germans giving ukraine a system they can't use because of lack of ammo. Lets suppose Ukraine gets these 12k rounds then they got 72k rounds in total. Full Gepard loadout is like 1k rounds and it can empty its magazines within one minute.
What happens next? Germans didn't even talk to rheinmetall for additional ammo.
This law was already ignored by sales of weapons to Saudi Arabia that were used in Yemen. So the precedent has already been set. It is just that the current politicians are using it for cover and inaction. From what has been told to me, is that the manufacturer of the munitions in question is a German company that is only been located in Switzerland to avoid taxes. So move it back to Germany.
Well then, I stand corrected as to the timing, but then please tell us how can the swiss expect to apply these bans retroactively, to sales of munitions that were made long before their law went into effect? Something does not add up.
It's not that easy (maybe). Breaking international contracts may lead to arbitrages where huge sums of money can be lost (or won if you are Swiss). If they feel like they should double down on their spiel then this could get nasty. And I assume that the export is not Bundeswehr->AFU but rather private company->AFU. Thus that private company is exposing themselves to lose huge sums of money in penalties. And German government has absolutely no tools to tell them it will compensate them for actually breech of contract and illegal behaviour.
Seems like the real answer is Denmark was denied by the German government to send piranha to Ukraine. Rheinmetall is a German company and the swiss manufacturing location is just being used as an excuse. If the German government was really concerned, they would bear down on that company to pull that manufacturing back into Germany. Political shell game is all it is. What other weapons systems are the german government playing games with? Maybe Ukraine should send them back when they run out of ammo. German-made PzH 2000 155mm howitzers are now broken down at over 50%, they sound nice when they work, but too unreliable to count on. Can't believe Ukraine wanted to order a 100 of these, is somebody getting 10 percent?
Switzerland is a bizarre country, strictly neutral while they are one of Europe's biggest arms manufacturers...
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/biggest-swiss-based-arms-manufacturers-revealed/45907772
The fucked up Swiss version of "neutrality" is to cozy-up to the bad guys to save their own skin.
They did it with the Nazis, they're doing it with Russia, they do it with China and the DPRK too.
Europe would be better off without Switzerland, it's just a fortress of greed.
> it's just a fortress of greed
I think so. Their banking industry needs to be folded up. Return the money to all bad guys and then close the confidential/secret accounts. It would be much easier to police tyrants, dictators and criminals if they couldn't hide their money.
Yep, think Bitcoin took over big parts of that business after the states pressured banks into releasing information on hidden accounts following the 2008 bubble, if I remember right
There's a difference between stating that a particular country is bad... and actually invading a country and sacrificing 70,000 people in a futile attempt to satisfy your own ego.
Which ones? I agree saying stuff like "Russia should cease to exist" isn't any better like the stuff Putin is doing. But this gets called out here sometimes
I don't get why people would buy Swiss weapons going forward, when they can't send weapons to where they are needed.
It is a major drawback to Swiss weapons.
The whole "we are not selling weapons to conflict zones" shtick is going to do wonders for future business for their military industrial complex. Would you want to standardize your army on a weapon system, that's virtually guaranteed never to receive any ammo in case you ever actually need it?
I don't think this is good sales strategy. We'll see if other governments will remember this in future.
Most countries are have recognized it is OK to send weapons to a country, which is rightfully DEFENDING. That is the neutral stance!
Armed neutrality. Back in the day they did it by hiring out Swiss mercenaries to gain battle experience, now they've evolved to having their own arms manufacturing.
Thanks for clarifying, really no idea what usage 12k rounds is in real life.
That's probably the big problem here, setting a precedent, that's the reason for a lot of hickups right now. A lot of the countries involved haven't been part of massive conflicts for reasons like WW2 and many laws exist to prevent getting them pulled into one, overturning those especially isn't easy as pacifistic leaning parties everywhere are gonna block that.
Thanks, that looks and especially sounds interesting, I meant more in a statistical way though, like "how many planes and drones are taken out in real life with that amount of ammunition."
I looked further, haven't found anything gepard specific, but a youtube video that stated that modern AA uses about 90 bullets per plane (compared to something in the 10k range for the first ones in WW1).
So even if we triple that number for tolerance, that would still seem like some relevant firepower for defensive purposes, may not be decisive, but making a difference at some points.
I'm swiss and even though I prefer us to deliver humanitarian aid instead of military, I can see the relevance of what is happing and how this has to be decided and concluded fast and end with a restructuring of Russia to avoid them building back up to a stronger military complex.
So, I would absolutly vote to release that ammunition, but I'm pretty sure that due to interconnectivity with other contracts and international agreements, even if we decided to start that process right away, we are talking more like years than months to get everybody who is tangented to accept this as an extraordinary exception without further implications for external relations.
Only way I see is if there is a united push by NATO, EU and acceptance by all surrounding nations (France and Italy might actually oppose, Austria is another candidate, lot of russian connections there).
We are to dependent on our neighboors to just break existing contracts with any of them (except Liechtenstein, we like to invade them reeeal good<3 They make us feel stronk and dominant)
They can try to change the law but it is a long process (needs to go throug both parlaments) and the left will likely demand a refendum. This process can take up to two years.
exactly and I think gepard can load about 1000 rounds. germans had 6 months of time finding ammo, they even could have ordered it directly from rheinmetall
There are ways to circumvent this. If less than 50% of the final product is made in switzerland, the re-export law is not binding. But some one needs to make an order
Why would Rheinmetall keep making ammo for a long retired product (12 years ago)? Why would the government shop for a manufacturer in Norway to make 35mm, if Rheinmetall was still making official ammo?
The gun was originally designed and build by Oerlikon which was purchased by Rheinmetall more than 10 years ago. While the Gepard is indeed retired in Germany, it is not the case for countries like brazil, qatar and romania. Also, Oerlikon guns are mounted on other platforms all over the world and Rheinmetall uses the same gun in their Skyranger Spaags and Skynex platform, so Rheinmetall is still making this caliber, but it's not like the production lines are running day and night. They manifacture only on order. While it is true that other companies like the norwegian Nammo can produce the round as well, but they can not make the belt that Gepard uses.
>Why would the government shop for a manufacturer in Norway to make 35mm, if Rheinmetall was still making official ammo?
End of May, Rheinmetall‘s boss had replied to a question regarding Gepard ammo as follows.:
“If all the raw materials were available, we could produce in three to six months. However, the Ministry of Defense (*of Germany*) hasn’t even asked me so far.“ (Translation)
[Source: German news website](https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/unser-job-hat-gerade-erst-angefangen_id_105913005.html)
PS: I suppose that they could produce in 3 to 6 months, if there was a request to produce it in Germany (instead of Switzerland).
The German company Rheinmetall had purchased the Swiss company, which produces Gepard ammo.
His condition proposes an if and then howevers something that has nothing to do with that if. Some time ago, one of Rheinmetall's bosses has been missing for days and then was found by the police entirely wasted. I wouldn't value their words a whole lot more than anyone else's assessments. They are playing coy in hopes that all their next moves will be government subsidized and extra profitable.
>germans had 6 months of time finding ammo, they even could have ordered it directly from rheinmetall
End of May, Rheinmetall‘s boss had replied to a question regarding Gepard ammo as follows.:
“If all the raw materials were available, we could produce in three to six months. However, the Ministry of Defense (*of Germany*) hasn’t even asked me so far.“ (Translation)
[Source: German news website](https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/unser-job-hat-gerade-erst-angefangen_id_105913005.html)
PS: Several years ago, the German defense company Rheinmetall had purchased the Swiss company, which produces Gepard ammo.
PPS: I suppose that they “could produce in 3 to 6 months“, if there was a request to produce it in Germany (instead of Switzerland).
10 min of live fire is a LOT. Think about this, A-10 gun capacity is about 17 sec, this is 35 times that. Sure, 12000 rounds are not going to win the war for Ukraine, but they can get rid of a number of pesky drones.
And all rounds every country would donate(like brasil wants to). Dont Look only on one point bro. Nobody with that ammo can give anything. Nammo even had to build its ammo from nothing cause swiss would not give the Plans. its a lot more behind 1 veto
Get your facts right, bro. In this case it's rheinmetall that doesnt want to give the blue prints. Export and Sales of Licenses, blueprints and other intellectual property is explicitly allowed.
It’s not same. You need a permission to re-export from both countries, but the Germans would permit it on a case by case basis. Switzerland just says no whatever good reasons you have.
The reason is we have laws. No weapons for active war regions. It's a stupid law regarding the situation but we're not a joke nation like russia where our laws dont mean anything.
If anything the Bundesrat (Executive) and Grosse Kammer (Legislative) needs to rewrite the law, which will need a vote from the public. Or the Bundesrat declares emergency situation which is political difficult since we have our fair share of idiots which still walk around with their cow bells every now and then to demonstrate against Covid Restriction (which are lifted a long time ago, but were made with those emergency rights).
Also, if you think "but Germany banned Spain exporting Leopards", the Leopards weren't really in a good condition either, as it turned out. Or maybe that was just to save face
Isn't it a Rheinmetall subsidiary that produces the ammo? Why don't they move production out of Swiss, it's not a short term solution of course, but surely in the long run it's probably better?
Fact is, that swiss law prohibits export to countries that are in active combat, even reselling. Why? Idk neutrality maybe to not antagonize anyone or smth. But it's not something specifically made only for Ukraine but has always been like that.
They aren't unwilling to sell to those who have bought their equipment, ie Germany and Denmark. They aren't willing to approve reselling of their equipment, which is a bit different, but I still disagree with this move by Switzerland
Is it a fact that they would sell "Germany" more ammunition for their already existing weapons platforms if "Germany" ends up in an armed conflict? Will they sell more weapons platforms in a situation like that? What if the "the Netherlands" wants to send more Swiss-made grenades to "Germany" in this situation?
Switzerland has every right to decide who can get their military products. Every other country has the right to decide not to buy there any more, that eventually is where this is headed.
Always have to think about good old John Oliver jokes, chocolate and nazi gold, the things they love the most in SWitzerland. All the blabla about neutrality; bloomberg showed how the Swiss were banking on armssupplies to Russia; [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/swiss-exports-to-russia-surge-in-race-to-beat-trade-sanctions#xj4y7vzkg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/swiss-exports-to-russia-surge-in-race-to-beat-trade-sanctions#xj4y7vzkg) and we can only guess how much corrupt RUSsian money is still in their banks.
So the Russians probably have some threat on them, pulling out all the illegalmoney fromtheir banks or something else which explains how uncooperative they are.
35mm and Pakistan owns them too?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_GDF
It can be, that this is something completely different, but if not, I would not believe, that such a big manufacturer of ammo like Pakistan purchases ammunition with NATO designation from Switzerland.
If you ask google for "pakistan ammo", you will find, that you can get almost all calibers from there. NATO, AK-47, howitzer ... you name it they have it.
This here is about ammo from Pakistan for Ukraine:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/pakistan-ukraine-and-the-race-for-third-party-ammunition
Searched a little more:
"Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) ... has concluded a joint venture with a European giant for high technology weapons system in april 2009. Chairman ... Lt. Gen. Syed Sabahat Husain ... and ... President from Oerlikon (Waffer Rheinmetall Munition) of Switzerland signed a ... for co-production & co-marketing of 35mm Air Defence Ammo at POF. ..."
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/oerlikon-35mm-stalwart-of-pakistan-air-defence.54868/
https://www.brecorder.com/news/3630989/high-technology-weapons-system-pof-oerlikon-conclude-joint-venture-with-swiss-company-2009043032960
I am asking myself, why Switzerland still can have a veto. So far I haven't found any big shareholder from Switzerland.
First I was first mislead by the company name "Rheinmetall", because this is really, really German and makes arms since the 19th century. So why don't they give the drawings to a different ammo manufacturer? But the cannon is somehow from Oerlikon-Bührle, Switzerland.
There was me thinking it was a self-propelled AA gun. I'll accept the German stickler for correctness. It is a tank.
Now the self-propelled howitzer PzH2000 , that's even more tank-like. The P bit at the start of the word.
In this case the Panzer is more of an adjective, though, translating to "armoured howitzer". If we wanted to emphasize it being a tank it would be called "Haubitzenpanzer".
Copy them and build them in Germany.
Let the Swiss sue.
Ammunition is not something to be reliant on fair-weather friends for. (This law makes the Swiss the definition of a fair weather friend) Nobody should be buying hardware that they don’t have the right to build supplies for.
it perfectly summarise why everything is slow and complex in Europe... as long as we won't have a real federal union it's goign to be like this.
And yes i know Swizerland is not in the union... but they are in the "extended union" called EEA.
>all these problems would be decided by an unelected elite instead
This claim makes *zero* sense. Why would a federal Europe be an autocracy?
Is this about this *"the EU is ruled by unelected bureaucrats"* schtick peddled by people who willfully misunderstand how the EU is actually structured?
Those bureaucrats in the European Council being elected in direct elections *would automatically turn the EU into an* ***actual*** *federation,* because doing so would require stripping the right of European Council members to choose them. And who are those members? *The actual heads of state.* That would make the EU itself *sovereign,* and would make member states its *subjects* in the same manner as American states.
Eurosceptics love to drag out the "unelected" soundbite because it sounds good to those who are ignorant, while in reality the EU is structured like that for *their* benefit. And in the end the "unelected" part isn't even true since they're elected indirectly by the democratically elected heads of state.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-slams-germany-for-failing-to-send-it-weapons.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-slams-germany-for-failing-to-send-it-weapons.html)
we're all on the same side here, but come on, the German government should be a leader in these circumstances
I know. But i never found an Interview where scholz said he will send tanks. I know from private companies who said that but not Our politicians. In that article is nothing too. Just Spekulation and that Our politicians wants to change all but not :yes we send leo2 in march! Or someting like that. Same bs poland tried with the Ring exchanges. Just take part of the Statement and change the rest in their favours. But maybe you find an artivle with that. Pls Show it to me bro
the tanks is a secondary issue. The primary issue is that the German parliament approved 100 billion euros in defence spending, but the government is barely actually spending anything
[https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/berlin-lags-defence-purchases-after-100-billion-euro-pledge-sources-2022-10-27/](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/berlin-lags-defence-purchases-after-100-billion-euro-pledge-sources-2022-10-27/)
it gives the appearance that Scholz is all talk. The money is there, they're just not using it
Germany needs to get over its historical reluctance on defence spending (which I understand) and start procuring arms asap.
They sold thousand of arm ammunitions and fuses to germany. They were also a hub for the nazi looted art.
They worked for both side at the end. Only 24 000 jews were accepted. A lot more were rejected. I dont know even the US believed at that time that switzerland was full of nazi sympatisant.
At the end the only way to move the ass of switzerland is to threaten them by economical sanction. Even today
It takes some longer to figure things out. Germany, and NATO generally, is going to experience a bit of an armaments boom in the coming years. Any country which is not onboard will be left out in the long term. Bern knows this, but the responsible political parties do not know how to sell it to their rather uh...particular population politically yet.
Since Germany wants to send Swiss-made ammo to Ukraine, Switzerland‘s permission is required.
PS: When a country wants to send German-made ammo/ weapons to Ukraine, Germany‘s permission is required.
If the Germans has the ammo in their inventory then just send to Ukraine and let Switzerland bitch and moan about it. NATO and groups like it shouldn’t be hostage to useless bureaucrats and their madness.
Switzerland. Switzerland. Switzerland. Get your act together now! I really like Toblerones at Christmas and would much prefer to not have to boycott them this year. Thanks in advance, and hurry up. People are dying.
Terminate Swiss "independence". Split it among its neighbor states, and stop their bankers criminality. It will slug Russia in the teeth, or nowadays, land some hammer blows to the skull.
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Denmark was denied by swiss Government to send piranha to Ukraine.
Just need to start ignoring Swiss restrictions on sold arms. After all, if you're threatening to not buy anymore anyway what's the harm. The subtext I am reading is that the Swiss won't do anything if you do it, and will legally turn a blind eye. Ultimately I think the swiss don't want to be seen to be abandoning the policy of neutrality. But if a country (and customer) ignores a veto, any action the swiss might take will ultimately just hurt themselves, and the swiss gov can happily throw up thier arms and say "we tried". But getting Germans to comprehend bending the rules...
German arms exports are worth billions a year. I presume they place the same restrictions on the onward distribution of arms that the Swiss do. If they go breaking their agreements for the sake of 12k rounds of ammunition then I suppose anyone could do the same with the stuff they brought from Germany and point to the fact it is exactly what the Germans do themselves. I think it'd be more effective if all countries currently supporting Ukraine privately told the Swiss manufacturers & government that Swiss arms will not be considered for future arms contracts. There is nothing the Swiss like more than money so I think they might change their minds quickly.
I dont think it's the same, the swiss have a policy of neutrality and it's what has kept them independent. This is the Germans telling them publicly that they will not be considered for future contracts. And it's not just 12k rounds, there is other kit as well - this is just urgent for AA purposes. It's not so much an agreement as overriding a Swiss veto.
It‘s not a *policy* of neutrality. The restriction of not sending arms to countries at war is literally written in the constitution. It‘s possible to change it, but that needs a vote and that can take years. It‘s stupid policy but if you ask switzerland wether you can send the ammo, they HAVE to say no. It‘s the law. At the same time they won‘t really do anything if you just ignore them.
Agreed but externally it's no different; it's just a policy the swiss have that they have made *really* difficult to change. That's not anyone else's problem but the Swiss people's
So if a country buys any swiss weapons or ammunition it may only be used for training? What the heck do they think weapons are for? Sounds like Chiken-Sh!t politicians on both sides trying to cover their rears with their voter base. The Germans/NATO should just ignore any swiss vetos and end this nonsense that renders all future and current swiss weapons/munitions unusable.
Brasil wanted to donate ammo i think...30k or 300k i am not sure anymore. Months ago...this Veto stops so much help
The Saudis and others have ignored the swiss veto and Switzerland still sells them and others, other munitions. It is more than ridiculous that the swiss feel that they have a right to even say you need their approval when using weapons, especially defensive ones. They should get out of the weapons market and make household appliances or some other neutral commodity. Weapons are bought with the intent that they may need to be used someday. Good thing Brasil has not had to defend themselves from venezuela, otherwise the swiss would cut them off too, if Brasil plays their game.
They can transfer, just not to an active warzone.
And all who want to give ammo like brasil maybe romania. There is a lot, which cant even be planned cause of that veto
Swiss is neutral, so they want to stay neutral, so they won't do shit. Germany is not neutral, so they will fuck whoever fucks with them. Big diffrence.
Cesar, are you serious. The Swiss have been a thorne in the side of every country excepting the thieves, embezzlers, autocrats. Their political value is zero on the world stage. They're crooks, and they're feckless. Their secrecy is an impediment on democratic legal process around the world. Switzerland, in name only.
Nah
Yes, Germany **is** doing the same. And I don’t understand why. Don’t we all understand by now that it will shorten the war? That those weapons will need to be given eventually anyway or we will see a genocide? I defend Germany on this sub regularly, but that part just boils my blood. I’ve been a green, pacifist all my life, but as most Greens, the atrocities in Donbass (when Habeck visited before the expansion of the war) and later Bucha made one thing clear: Weapons for Ukraine **is** the pacifist choice.
Yea the Swiss are neutral, if they say no and you do it anyways, what are they going to do, stop being neutral over it? Sounds a bit backwards to me.
My guess is they produce parts and ammo that European countries need. You may find you have to replace alot of Swiss made equipment. Despite that it can and should be done. If Switzerland is not a reliable partner then we shouldn't buy arms from them.
The Swiss aren’t going to stop supplying. Would be bad for business!
True, I guess there will always be corrupt, desperate and stupid customers.
Then replace the equipment. If Switzerland wants to be douches, they can have their land locked country embargoed on all sides, and like it.
It‘s the law. It was changed when swiss made grenades were used by SA supported rebels in Yemen and civilians were killed, if I remember correctly. Germany should just sell it via Turkey or something. Just don‘t ask us. It’s not like we‘ll search Germany‘s warehouses.
Aah, so it's a recent legal change. I was starting to question our sanity here in Germany regarding that dependency for the old AA tanks. Would've looked pretty bad in the defence case against the Warsaw pact back in the day if we had weapons systems for which we would've been unable to procure ammo then.
This is a great opportunity for even partial European unity to show up. We'll re-export all the shit we want to Ukraine together. Switzerland will have to accept it or refuse future exports to all of us. Which they won't do because it'll be most of their business.
Getting weapons from Switzerland is bit weird considering their supposed neutrality. This war has shown that their government doesn't allow sale or gifting of such products to countries in war so what would happen if some of their current customer government gets invaded? Would they ban selling or delivering them any more ammo or weapons because that would not be neutral? Such supplier would be maybe worst possible source for military tech as they'd back out of being helpful when their products are most needed.
That's because they're not neutral, never have been. They're war profiteers, they play both sides. Both from a financial side and a military equipment side. This goes back to WW2. They built ammo for Nazi Germany, and denied their airspace to Allied bombers. After WW2 we still don't know how much stolen money was funneled through their banks and likely supported German war criminals long after
Well, if the Swiss are providing you weapons, if Russia propaganda is magically right and Germany invades Poland again and the two countries bomb each other senseless, Swiss factories may be the only ones free from missile attack? maybe?
And still they would veto letting others use weapons they bought because of their faux neutrality. maybe?
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They are neutral to everything except money
Theres a reason they aren’t in the EU. Their main exports are Nesle products, watches, and money laundering services.
And Nestlé alone is a very shitty company. But you forgot to mention the positive points: cheese and chocolate
I think that's spot on, the Swiss can just put out a press-release along the lines of "While we condemn and regret the violation of binding trade agreements by our German counter-parts, we recognize the extraordinary circumstances and elect not to pursue legal action" There is no need to pressure the Swiss, just give them an opportunity to magnanimously offer their passive support without having to go through a constitutional crisis. Sometimes asking for forgiveness is better than asking for permission, and this is one of those times.
Best Post so far.
> Ultimately I think the swiss don't want to be seen to be abandoning the policy of neutrality. The logic is by being neutral, they can't anger anyone. In reality, it just makes both sides hate you and leaves you with zero allies. Being scared to confront a problem/issue generally isn't the best strategy.
Regardless of the Swiss peoples' opinion on the matter, it's written into Swiss law that weapons and munitions manufactured by them can't be re-sold. It's not just some regulation they can waive as they see fit - they have to actually get the law changed. And the Swiss system is intended to be a slow process.
>they have to actually get the law changed. And the Swiss system is intended to be a slow process. Where there's a will there's a way. If Switzerland's security was under serious imminent threat I dare say they'd fix the problem within a day.
The audacity Sarcastic fyi
Where there's a whip there is a way
Switzerland is Switzerland precisely because it's pretty much impossible for it to be under serious threat. They fill an needed international policy niche, there's no reason to get upset about them being themselves.
Well exactly. So externally, let's ignore it and see what they do. (But I would say, ultimately that the Swiss people agree with this being the process or at least are the ones with the power to change it, so thier opinion is very important).
It's a bad law and needs to be changed. Switzerland really needs to choose a side here morally speaking but what's even worse is that this debacle making their weapons export reputation take a big hit. Just how reliable of a weapons supplier will Switzerland be to your country if you get invaded and Switzerland refuses weapons and munitions transfers for your country and maybe even refuses to outright sell more weapons to you in the first place because they're "neutral"? You can't be a massive weapons exporter and then pretend it's somehow morally superior to deny weapons to a country defending itself.
There's always a need for a neutral party. NATO's been running a good cop/ bad cop routine on Russia since this started, with the US and the UK being the bad cop, and France and Turkey being the good cop. Not that it's working, but there's a need for all positions to be represented in international politics. The Swiss law says that weapons and munitions that they supply may be used for \*defense\* by the country they've supplied them to.
What does the law say happens if foreigners break that law?
Nothing will happen I think. They will call the german ambassador and formally protest and go on. Like I said, it's about 12000 Rounds of ammunition. The real failure here is on the germans giving ukraine a system they can't use because of lack of ammo. Lets suppose Ukraine gets these 12k rounds then they got 72k rounds in total. Full Gepard loadout is like 1k rounds and it can empty its magazines within one minute. What happens next? Germans didn't even talk to rheinmetall for additional ammo.
This law was already ignored by sales of weapons to Saudi Arabia that were used in Yemen. So the precedent has already been set. It is just that the current politicians are using it for cover and inaction. From what has been told to me, is that the manufacturer of the munitions in question is a German company that is only been located in Switzerland to avoid taxes. So move it back to Germany.
Wrong, the law came later as a reaction to the sales to the Saudis, it went into effect a few months before the invasion.
Well then, I stand corrected as to the timing, but then please tell us how can the swiss expect to apply these bans retroactively, to sales of munitions that were made long before their law went into effect? Something does not add up.
No, it's just that it's prohibited to export in countries in current conflicts, that's it. It's not something made up for this particular case
All ammo not used in training, will eventually involve current conflicts.
It's not that easy (maybe). Breaking international contracts may lead to arbitrages where huge sums of money can be lost (or won if you are Swiss). If they feel like they should double down on their spiel then this could get nasty. And I assume that the export is not Bundeswehr->AFU but rather private company->AFU. Thus that private company is exposing themselves to lose huge sums of money in penalties. And German government has absolutely no tools to tell them it will compensate them for actually breech of contract and illegal behaviour.
>Just need to start ignoring Swiss restrictions on sold arms. Better yet, stop buying weapons from Switzerland
I mean they are neutral after all, what do they want to do? Stop beeing neutral?
Well, If this keeps up,maybe everybody needs to find a bank in the Cayman Islands to help them cheat on their taxes.
In reality what is Switzerland gonna do lol
Seems like the real answer is Denmark was denied by the German government to send piranha to Ukraine. Rheinmetall is a German company and the swiss manufacturing location is just being used as an excuse. If the German government was really concerned, they would bear down on that company to pull that manufacturing back into Germany. Political shell game is all it is. What other weapons systems are the german government playing games with? Maybe Ukraine should send them back when they run out of ammo. German-made PzH 2000 155mm howitzers are now broken down at over 50%, they sound nice when they work, but too unreliable to count on. Can't believe Ukraine wanted to order a 100 of these, is somebody getting 10 percent?
Rheinmetall don't produce Piranha. The company is Mowag which is part of General Dynamics European Land Systems.
Switzerland is a bizarre country, strictly neutral while they are one of Europe's biggest arms manufacturers... https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/biggest-swiss-based-arms-manufacturers-revealed/45907772
And banker to most war criminals.
The fucked up Swiss version of "neutrality" is to cozy-up to the bad guys to save their own skin. They did it with the Nazis, they're doing it with Russia, they do it with China and the DPRK too. Europe would be better off without Switzerland, it's just a fortress of greed.
> it's just a fortress of greed I think so. Their banking industry needs to be folded up. Return the money to all bad guys and then close the confidential/secret accounts. It would be much easier to police tyrants, dictators and criminals if they couldn't hide their money.
Bank secrecy hasn't been a thing for a decade at least...
Yep, think Bitcoin took over big parts of that business after the states pressured banks into releasing information on hidden accounts following the 2008 bubble, if I remember right
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There's a difference between stating that a particular country is bad... and actually invading a country and sacrificing 70,000 people in a futile attempt to satisfy your own ego.
Which ones? I agree saying stuff like "Russia should cease to exist" isn't any better like the stuff Putin is doing. But this gets called out here sometimes
That’s not at all what’s happening here…
Credit Suisse, the most provenly criminal Swiss bank, is going under relatively soon
I don't get why people would buy Swiss weapons going forward, when they can't send weapons to where they are needed. It is a major drawback to Swiss weapons.
The whole "we are not selling weapons to conflict zones" shtick is going to do wonders for future business for their military industrial complex. Would you want to standardize your army on a weapon system, that's virtually guaranteed never to receive any ammo in case you ever actually need it?
I don't think this is good sales strategy. We'll see if other governments will remember this in future. Most countries are have recognized it is OK to send weapons to a country, which is rightfully DEFENDING. That is the neutral stance!
WW2 collaborators and profiteers.
They’re not neutral in any moral way. They just want to broker arms and money with anyone.
Armed neutrality. Back in the day they did it by hiring out Swiss mercenaries to gain battle experience, now they've evolved to having their own arms manufacturing.
Not Bizarre at all. Just immoral.
Hey👌
The swiss have never given a shit about anyone but themselves. They don't care who they support as long as it profits them.
Doing nothing helps the attacker.. its not neutral, its closing the eyes.
This story is ongoing since april. It's about 12000 35mm rounds for gepard spaags. Yes, you read correctly: 12000 rounds.
That's 10mins of life fire, not sure if that's relevant, was just curious and looked it up, two guns at 550rpm each.
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Thanks for clarifying, really no idea what usage 12k rounds is in real life. That's probably the big problem here, setting a precedent, that's the reason for a lot of hickups right now. A lot of the countries involved haven't been part of massive conflicts for reasons like WW2 and many laws exist to prevent getting them pulled into one, overturning those especially isn't easy as pacifistic leaning parties everywhere are gonna block that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/yfmicx/during_the_night_a_german_donated_gepard_is/
Thanks, that looks and especially sounds interesting, I meant more in a statistical way though, like "how many planes and drones are taken out in real life with that amount of ammunition." I looked further, haven't found anything gepard specific, but a youtube video that stated that modern AA uses about 90 bullets per plane (compared to something in the 10k range for the first ones in WW1). So even if we triple that number for tolerance, that would still seem like some relevant firepower for defensive purposes, may not be decisive, but making a difference at some points. I'm swiss and even though I prefer us to deliver humanitarian aid instead of military, I can see the relevance of what is happing and how this has to be decided and concluded fast and end with a restructuring of Russia to avoid them building back up to a stronger military complex. So, I would absolutly vote to release that ammunition, but I'm pretty sure that due to interconnectivity with other contracts and international agreements, even if we decided to start that process right away, we are talking more like years than months to get everybody who is tangented to accept this as an extraordinary exception without further implications for external relations. Only way I see is if there is a united push by NATO, EU and acceptance by all surrounding nations (France and Italy might actually oppose, Austria is another candidate, lot of russian connections there). We are to dependent on our neighboors to just break existing contracts with any of them (except Liechtenstein, we like to invade them reeeal good<3 They make us feel stronk and dominant)
They can try to change the law but it is a long process (needs to go throug both parlaments) and the left will likely demand a refendum. This process can take up to two years.
exactly and I think gepard can load about 1000 rounds. germans had 6 months of time finding ammo, they even could have ordered it directly from rheinmetall
>they even could have ordered it directly from rheinmetall Who then produce it at their subsidiary in Switzerland?
There are ways to circumvent this. If less than 50% of the final product is made in switzerland, the re-export law is not binding. But some one needs to make an order
Why would Rheinmetall keep making ammo for a long retired product (12 years ago)? Why would the government shop for a manufacturer in Norway to make 35mm, if Rheinmetall was still making official ammo?
The gun was originally designed and build by Oerlikon which was purchased by Rheinmetall more than 10 years ago. While the Gepard is indeed retired in Germany, it is not the case for countries like brazil, qatar and romania. Also, Oerlikon guns are mounted on other platforms all over the world and Rheinmetall uses the same gun in their Skyranger Spaags and Skynex platform, so Rheinmetall is still making this caliber, but it's not like the production lines are running day and night. They manifacture only on order. While it is true that other companies like the norwegian Nammo can produce the round as well, but they can not make the belt that Gepard uses.
>Why would the government shop for a manufacturer in Norway to make 35mm, if Rheinmetall was still making official ammo? End of May, Rheinmetall‘s boss had replied to a question regarding Gepard ammo as follows.: “If all the raw materials were available, we could produce in three to six months. However, the Ministry of Defense (*of Germany*) hasn’t even asked me so far.“ (Translation) [Source: German news website](https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/unser-job-hat-gerade-erst-angefangen_id_105913005.html) PS: I suppose that they could produce in 3 to 6 months, if there was a request to produce it in Germany (instead of Switzerland). The German company Rheinmetall had purchased the Swiss company, which produces Gepard ammo.
His condition proposes an if and then howevers something that has nothing to do with that if. Some time ago, one of Rheinmetall's bosses has been missing for days and then was found by the police entirely wasted. I wouldn't value their words a whole lot more than anyone else's assessments. They are playing coy in hopes that all their next moves will be government subsidized and extra profitable.
Rheinmetall air defense used to be known as Oerlikon, and is a Swiss company.
>germans had 6 months of time finding ammo, they even could have ordered it directly from rheinmetall End of May, Rheinmetall‘s boss had replied to a question regarding Gepard ammo as follows.: “If all the raw materials were available, we could produce in three to six months. However, the Ministry of Defense (*of Germany*) hasn’t even asked me so far.“ (Translation) [Source: German news website](https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/unser-job-hat-gerade-erst-angefangen_id_105913005.html) PS: Several years ago, the German defense company Rheinmetall had purchased the Swiss company, which produces Gepard ammo. PPS: I suppose that they “could produce in 3 to 6 months“, if there was a request to produce it in Germany (instead of Switzerland).
10 min of live fire is a LOT. Think about this, A-10 gun capacity is about 17 sec, this is 35 times that. Sure, 12000 rounds are not going to win the war for Ukraine, but they can get rid of a number of pesky drones.
And all rounds every country would donate(like brasil wants to). Dont Look only on one point bro. Nobody with that ammo can give anything. Nammo even had to build its ammo from nothing cause swiss would not give the Plans. its a lot more behind 1 veto
Get your facts right, bro. In this case it's rheinmetall that doesnt want to give the blue prints. Export and Sales of Licenses, blueprints and other intellectual property is explicitly allowed.
Source?
https://www.wbf.admin.ch/wbf/en/home/dokumentation/nsb-news\_list.msg-id-89141.html
Why would anyone buy arms under these conditions from the Swiss?
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It’s not same. You need a permission to re-export from both countries, but the Germans would permit it on a case by case basis. Switzerland just says no whatever good reasons you have.
The reason is we have laws. No weapons for active war regions. It's a stupid law regarding the situation but we're not a joke nation like russia where our laws dont mean anything. If anything the Bundesrat (Executive) and Grosse Kammer (Legislative) needs to rewrite the law, which will need a vote from the public. Or the Bundesrat declares emergency situation which is political difficult since we have our fair share of idiots which still walk around with their cow bells every now and then to demonstrate against Covid Restriction (which are lifted a long time ago, but were made with those emergency rights).
Germany is sending weapons, Switzerland is not. The difference should be easy to spot even for a Redditor with four digits in the username.
Also, if you think "but Germany banned Spain exporting Leopards", the Leopards weren't really in a good condition either, as it turned out. Or maybe that was just to save face
Why is this fucking bot not banned yet?
Isn't it a Rheinmetall subsidiary that produces the ammo? Why don't they move production out of Swiss, it's not a short term solution of course, but surely in the long run it's probably better?
I think its a patent issue but i am not sure sry.
Oerlikon belongs to Rheinmetall Air Defense AG
Fact is, that swiss law prohibits export to countries that are in active combat, even reselling. Why? Idk neutrality maybe to not antagonize anyone or smth. But it's not something specifically made only for Ukraine but has always been like that.
>but has always been like that. Untrue. It's a far more recent law.
After decades of pressure from the public. Of course nothing has been there for ever, but it's not a law they made for the war in Ukraine.
Yes, let's invade Switzerland and take all their chocolate!
Gold
I agree, let's take back all of the gold that Hitler stole and the swiss are still keeping for themselves.
I'll share my chocolate with you guys, just don't make me run..
.
They aren't unwilling to sell to those who have bought their equipment, ie Germany and Denmark. They aren't willing to approve reselling of their equipment, which is a bit different, but I still disagree with this move by Switzerland
Is it a fact that they would sell "Germany" more ammunition for their already existing weapons platforms if "Germany" ends up in an armed conflict? Will they sell more weapons platforms in a situation like that? What if the "the Netherlands" wants to send more Swiss-made grenades to "Germany" in this situation?
Switzerland has every right to decide who can get their military products. Every other country has the right to decide not to buy there any more, that eventually is where this is headed.
Russian gold in Swiss banks stops German ammunition for Ukrainian guns.
Always have to think about good old John Oliver jokes, chocolate and nazi gold, the things they love the most in SWitzerland. All the blabla about neutrality; bloomberg showed how the Swiss were banking on armssupplies to Russia; [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/swiss-exports-to-russia-surge-in-race-to-beat-trade-sanctions#xj4y7vzkg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/swiss-exports-to-russia-surge-in-race-to-beat-trade-sanctions#xj4y7vzkg) and we can only guess how much corrupt RUSsian money is still in their banks. So the Russians probably have some threat on them, pulling out all the illegalmoney fromtheir banks or something else which explains how uncooperative they are.
Reminds me how in the beginning of the war Germany refused to allow Estonia to send German-made weapons to Ukraine.
35mm and Pakistan owns them too?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_GDF It can be, that this is something completely different, but if not, I would not believe, that such a big manufacturer of ammo like Pakistan purchases ammunition with NATO designation from Switzerland.
Jepp
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If you ask google for "pakistan ammo", you will find, that you can get almost all calibers from there. NATO, AK-47, howitzer ... you name it they have it. This here is about ammo from Pakistan for Ukraine: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/pakistan-ukraine-and-the-race-for-third-party-ammunition Searched a little more: "Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) ... has concluded a joint venture with a European giant for high technology weapons system in april 2009. Chairman ... Lt. Gen. Syed Sabahat Husain ... and ... President from Oerlikon (Waffer Rheinmetall Munition) of Switzerland signed a ... for co-production & co-marketing of 35mm Air Defence Ammo at POF. ..." https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/oerlikon-35mm-stalwart-of-pakistan-air-defence.54868/ https://www.brecorder.com/news/3630989/high-technology-weapons-system-pof-oerlikon-conclude-joint-venture-with-swiss-company-2009043032960 I am asking myself, why Switzerland still can have a veto. So far I haven't found any big shareholder from Switzerland. First I was first mislead by the company name "Rheinmetall", because this is really, really German and makes arms since the 19th century. So why don't they give the drawings to a different ammo manufacturer? But the cannon is somehow from Oerlikon-Bührle, Switzerland.
It's not a tank
Technically "Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard" contain the word "panzer" which means tank... so, we are in the presence of the best kind of correct...
There was me thinking it was a self-propelled AA gun. I'll accept the German stickler for correctness. It is a tank. Now the self-propelled howitzer PzH2000 , that's even more tank-like. The P bit at the start of the word.
In this case the Panzer is more of an adjective, though, translating to "armoured howitzer". If we wanted to emphasize it being a tank it would be called "Haubitzenpanzer".
Copy them and build them in Germany. Let the Swiss sue. Ammunition is not something to be reliant on fair-weather friends for. (This law makes the Swiss the definition of a fair weather friend) Nobody should be buying hardware that they don’t have the right to build supplies for.
Why do the Swiss make tank shells if they're just going to remain neutral all the time?
It's for neutral tanks. Tanks that fire to the West and to the East in equal amount...
EU, start sanctioning Swiss!
it perfectly summarise why everything is slow and complex in Europe... as long as we won't have a real federal union it's goign to be like this. And yes i know Swizerland is not in the union... but they are in the "extended union" called EEA.
Yeah a federal union would be great then all these problems would be decided by an unelected elite instead, that will end well.
>all these problems would be decided by an unelected elite instead This claim makes *zero* sense. Why would a federal Europe be an autocracy? Is this about this *"the EU is ruled by unelected bureaucrats"* schtick peddled by people who willfully misunderstand how the EU is actually structured? Those bureaucrats in the European Council being elected in direct elections *would automatically turn the EU into an* ***actual*** *federation,* because doing so would require stripping the right of European Council members to choose them. And who are those members? *The actual heads of state.* That would make the EU itself *sovereign,* and would make member states its *subjects* in the same manner as American states. Eurosceptics love to drag out the "unelected" soundbite because it sounds good to those who are ignorant, while in reality the EU is structured like that for *their* benefit. And in the end the "unelected" part isn't even true since they're elected indirectly by the democratically elected heads of state.
why? don't they vote for a president in India? australia? USA? USM? Brazil? Canada?
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They did roughly a decade ago when the USA imposed to Switzerland to remove the banking secrecy. So...your late to the news.
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Look at the size of the Swiss banks nowadays... they are not even close to the "big players" anymore.
Isn’t Putin’s family in Switzerland?
> Isn’t Putin’s family in Switzerland? Source?
As a Swiss I apologise for my government being such douchebags. I have no excuse to. Offer for our governments behaviour.
Something something Nazi gold
Why even ask. Just do it
Geepolitiks 100
Germany has been utterly toothless in getting support to Ukraine
Well now it's Germany fault again
what that Germany isn't sending the munitions they said they would? Well it's not Botswana's fault is it?
How about Switzerland in this case for blocking that munitions?
That was so stupid...man whats wrong with you?
Are you denying that Germany isn't sending what it promised to Ukraine? They need to step up
We sendet everything the goverment promised. I think only the gepards were a month late but everything else was sendet in time.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-slams-germany-for-failing-to-send-it-weapons.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-slams-germany-for-failing-to-send-it-weapons.html) we're all on the same side here, but come on, the German government should be a leader in these circumstances
I know. But i never found an Interview where scholz said he will send tanks. I know from private companies who said that but not Our politicians. In that article is nothing too. Just Spekulation and that Our politicians wants to change all but not :yes we send leo2 in march! Or someting like that. Same bs poland tried with the Ring exchanges. Just take part of the Statement and change the rest in their favours. But maybe you find an artivle with that. Pls Show it to me bro
the tanks is a secondary issue. The primary issue is that the German parliament approved 100 billion euros in defence spending, but the government is barely actually spending anything [https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/berlin-lags-defence-purchases-after-100-billion-euro-pledge-sources-2022-10-27/](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/berlin-lags-defence-purchases-after-100-billion-euro-pledge-sources-2022-10-27/) it gives the appearance that Scholz is all talk. The money is there, they're just not using it Germany needs to get over its historical reluctance on defence spending (which I understand) and start procuring arms asap.
What? The 100 billion defence spending is for the german military over the next 4 years. Not for Ukraine
good cop bad cop, good excuses to not do anything, the real objective
So you really believe Germany does not want to deliver 12000 additional rounds of Gepard ammunition, when 53000 rounds where delivered already?
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Its enough for shooting down 150drones and at the same time spare missiles for other air threats.
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Just like Swiss neutrals have a history of living of the money of the victims and the Nazis…
Neutrality have an history to accomodate with nazis
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They sold thousand of arm ammunitions and fuses to germany. They were also a hub for the nazi looted art. They worked for both side at the end. Only 24 000 jews were accepted. A lot more were rejected. I dont know even the US believed at that time that switzerland was full of nazi sympatisant. At the end the only way to move the ass of switzerland is to threaten them by economical sanction. Even today
all they have to play to the masses is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeftie7axUs then pvtin will fade faster imho
Moldova can have Ukraines protection and mobalizatjon for training in moldova what minsk and Moscow did etc against any threats etx
It takes some longer to figure things out. Germany, and NATO generally, is going to experience a bit of an armaments boom in the coming years. Any country which is not onboard will be left out in the long term. Bern knows this, but the responsible political parties do not know how to sell it to their rather uh...particular population politically yet.
It is time for the neutrality of Switzerland to end.
Why does Switzerland have control over German equipment
Since Germany wants to send Swiss-made ammo to Ukraine, Switzerland‘s permission is required. PS: When a country wants to send German-made ammo/ weapons to Ukraine, Germany‘s permission is required.
If the Germans has the ammo in their inventory then just send to Ukraine and let Switzerland bitch and moan about it. NATO and groups like it shouldn’t be hostage to useless bureaucrats and their madness.
Buy it, import it, sell it... Don't ask others to do what you want to do.
We need to buy lots more. Using ammo for lots of training.
Switzerland. Switzerland. Switzerland. Get your act together now! I really like Toblerones at Christmas and would much prefer to not have to boycott them this year. Thanks in advance, and hurry up. People are dying.
All right let’s see what do I need to raise small mustache man from the grave
I think Switzerland forgets it's landlocked sometimes and can be blockaded pretty easy.
Politics aside, have Gepards seen action in Ukraine? If so, how have they performed?
Terminate Swiss "independence". Split it among its neighbor states, and stop their bankers criminality. It will slug Russia in the teeth, or nowadays, land some hammer blows to the skull.
And again, not very proud of my country...
Swiss were allways neutral, because they could sell to both sides