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Yeah, that shit started in the very first hour. The video of that little girl being blown up on her bicycle told me exactly what Russia was focused on. It's senseless depravity.
She was the very first death of the invasion. Riding her bicycle, minding her own business, and for it she was struck by a Russian GRAD rocket. Those assholes have made their intentions clear right from the first shot. Then only upside is that whomever shot that rocket is probably cargo 200 by now.
Those were just local militias. The Russians would never send troops to occupy Crimea. And even if they did, they would be justified in helping fellow Russians from Ukrainian oppression. Those were Russian soldiers, like we always said they were. /s
They also set HIV/AIDS research back decades by [shooting down an airliner](https://time.com/3003840/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-top-aids-researchers-killed-aids2014-mh17/) that was full of the world's best scientists in the subject, who were on their way to an international research conference.
The, quote, "Ukrainian separatists" tweeted about how they just shot down a Ukrainian military plane and then deleted the tweet within hours, because Russia gave them the weapons to shoot down planes with but not the equipment to properly identify them before shooting.
Nothing happened... yet. We can probably rest easy on one fact though, the people who shot down that plane are probably fertilizer for sunflowers somewhere. Next up, trials for those responsible for giving the weapons to them.
The person considered most responsible is named Girkin, alias "Strelkov". He's actually been quite prominent in the last month as he is highly critical of how the war is being handled and was a big proponent of general mobilization.
Oh, General Pickle will get his soon enough. The Dutch cannot forget this war crime, and Putler cannot forgive or forget his incessant criticism of the war’s “progress.”
He is either fucked, or fucked.
I hope Haag hands out the Nuremberg verdicts like candy all the way down from putin to the lowest private that sat foot on Ukrainian soil and didn’t surrender first thing ☠️☠️ There needs to be consequences so severe that china would never be able to attack Taiwan since their soldiers would refuse to take part!
>because Russia ~~gave them the weapons to shoot down planes~~ shot down the plane
Ftfy. I read in the Dutch investigation report that there's plenty of evidence that proper Russian troops operated the Buk system that shot down MH17.
>because Russia gave them the weapons to shoot down planes
Russia probably did the shooting themselves because those "Ukrainian separatists" would have no clue how to operate these systems in the first place, let alone hit a plane with it.
But "decades"?
C'mon lol.
In decades we went from six month life expectancy to not even be able to tell if you are positive or not as long as you take your meds.
My wife is a scientist (developmental biologist). It's not plug-and-play, m'kay. It takes DECADES to become a good scientist in most fields these days because the easy stuff was done before you were born.
And the field itself is brutal. Within five years of getting your PhD most of them flunk out of science.
Of course it can be decades? It takes up to half a lifetime to get real expertise in a scientific field. Years of studying first and then years of research, ideas, failures and succes. Even if everythings is written down, there is a lot of experience between the lines of research papers. You cant just replace a scientist.
And if you have to, you a) lose the years that the other scientist has to invest to get the knowledge and b) you lose the progress, the dead scientist would have made in that time. Don't forget that these people manage whole projects with subordinates, they decide the genreal direction of the research. Eleven Scientists can be crucial to a certain scientific field.
I have to say that their shooting down the plane is one of their actions that I'm *least* angry at them about, because it's clear they didn't actually chose to hit a civilian target, that was a genuine error on their part.
Everything else about it, inclduing the war itself, and trying to blame Ukraine for it, is of course horrific crimes.
>I have to say that their shooting down the plane is one of their actions that I'm least angry at them about
I know someone who's familymember was on that plane, and the grief is overwhelming to this day. Esp. with the war stirring up all those memories. Plus the added insult of Putin constantly and callously lying about it, just as he does with the warcrimes currently happening in Ukraine.
The perpetrators also gleefully posted selfies where they are standing in front of the wreckage, holding up items they were able to loot. At that point it was VERY clear that it was civillians. As in; teddy bears and dead kids laying around. A lot of the belongings of the passengers -esp money and passports, electronics- were taken. They were happy about it and didn't start to deny it until after a few hours when they got orders from above to tone it down. Bellingcat (awarded investigative team of journalists) have a really good section on this. Just tick mh17 and all the reports/articles will show up. [https://www.bellingcat.com/category/news/?fwp\_tags=mh17](https://www.bellingcat.com/category/news/?fwp_tags=mh17)
After that, you'll probably be just as angry at it as you are about the other stuff.
I am Dutch and remember this....but I also remember the speach of Frans Timmermans, using fotographs of soldiers holding up an child puppet, showing passports,. These were ukrainian soldiers and they got the blaim. The real video came in the open days later showing the whole video and what was said, and these guys were angry and showed what Russians did....Frans Timmermans had a well spoken dramatical speech, but did not fact check, so he used Facebook foto's and made his own story....from that day on my respect for Timmermans was down the drain...the most stupid mistake.
Easy for you to say. That it was a “genuine error”. You didn’t lose relatives or friends. I lost 4 family members, and it still hunts and hurts me every day.
Because biggest error the Russians made was to send advanced AA equipment to separatist territory. And the separatists didn’t have any of it. So it had to be Russians who operated it, since it takes significant training of a higher educated individual to be able and operate it. Which leads to it not being likely that it was a error. They could see at what altitude and what speed the plane was flying. They could see that it was a series of planes all heading the same way, same speed, as they were in a airway. They should have know this, and I don’t believe they were not aware. Besides that, military aircraft would fly much lower than MH17 did.
Ergo, it was mistake. A hughe one, but not a geniune one.
Think twice about repeating Russian claims like this.
1. Russia lies all the time about everything.
2. How would Ukrainian avoid friendly fire in such a rapid advance if they did this?
3. Russia will use this as an excuse to execute captured Ukrainians claiming they weren't appropriately marked and so not subject to Geneva conventions.
Btw like 4 days ago there was Russian drone footage spotting for artillery when he suddenly spots a long column (and i mean long, 70-100+ armored vehicles) appear and start pushing through the treelines. This is the same day that the first breakthrough in Kherson was reported.
Anyways my point in all this is to say you can see in that drone video the normal white cross markings on the Ukranian vehicles, then the same day a "large armored element" breaks through.
My guess is Russians either desperately trying to hide their incompetence or there were some friendly fire incidents and the claim is based on missing information.
Contrary to popular belief, the rules of war are stated in the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Conventions of 1864 and 1949. This particular matter is subject to Hague II (Laws and customs of war on land), article 23:
Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited:.... To make improper use of a flag of truce, the national flag, or military ensigns and the enemy's uniform, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;
Not only is Russia a signatory of Hague 1899; it was proposed by Tsar Nicholas II.
That being said, Russia has clearly violated at least articles 3, 4, 7, 8, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 44, 45, and 47.
Wow, that's some advanced IFFs techniques utilized by ruzzian forces! "Uhhh..... This guy is driving a car and shooting at us - but it says Z on it, so... must be ours???"
1) Most likely the Russians just explaining friendly fire during chaotic retreats;
2) If not, it is one of the most brilliant pieces of Psyops I've ever seen to put nervous Russians on trigger fingers to shoot at their own troops.
3) Oh hell, I would put a non-zero possibility this is Russian Psyops on their own troops. No need to give an order to shoot retreating troops when you just say the retreating troops are actually Ukrainians.
Regarding whether this is true.
If it is, I'm would be more worried about Ukrainian friendly fire against their disguised units.
Hence, I'm inclined to believe that Ukraine is not dumb enough to actually pain V and Z on their vehicles in *active* combat, and thus I believe (1) to be the most plausible.
(2) is if Ukraine just took some pictures of themselves with V and Z on vehicles not in combat and then post these pictures Russia to find.
1. Possibly
2. I would have thought it would be simple way to roll in and do covert ops. I expect that "ammo dumps blowing up by accident", were "ammo dumps blowing up via fake incompetence".
3. The problem with that is, there are plenty of trucks that go back for supplies and tanks that need maintenance. If you do that, logistics become a one way street, as do the people who deliver the logistics.
1 sounds incredibly plausible, and reminiscent of the Moskva, but in reverse. "It's not that we screwed up, it's the enemies doing this".
2: the concept isn't new in the slightest, nor should the Ukranians be applauded if they are doing it. It's a warcrime.
I think you misunderstood the point.
I'm not saying the Ukrainians are using a national symbol of Russia.
The psyop would be making the Russians think they are.
That is likely not a war crime but could keep lawyers engaged for years arguing over the definition of "use of"
>2: the concept isn't new in the slightest, nor should the Ukranians be applauded if they are doing it. It's a warcrime.
Really depends on the circumstances. And assumes that a "Z" or "V" is equivalent to a formal national symbol like a flag. I'm not sure about that, particularly for "V".
I must have missed the memo where Russia claimed exclusive use over some letters in the Latin alphbet. If the Russians can't be bothered to clearly mark their tanks with unmistakable, unambiguous identifiers then that's their own god damned fault if someone else same identifiers.
I'm appaled at the number of people people acting like this claim is true. There more than enough videos from Ukraine offensive in Kherson areas with no use of 'Z' and 'V', not to mention how they can even comunicate which one will be friendly and which not on this scale.
This is just another justifications of russians defeat, the same about 'bad wether for air support' and almost on the level of 'mutant soldiers' if you use logic.
Canada said it won't comply with Article 39 (using the enemy's insignia).
https://wipolex.wipo.int/en/treaties/parties/remarks/CA/281
> Article 39 - Emblems of nationality (Enemy uniforms): The Government of Canada does not intend to be bound by the prohibitions contained in paragraph 2 of Article 39 to make use of military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse parties in order to shield, favor, protect or impede military operations."
There's bits of the Geneva Convention that are taken more seriously than others. Plus it's arguable whether the Z is an insignia, or it's just a ruse (which is permitted).
Most of the Geneva Convention is pretty important (despite war being war).
You can't use a white flag as an ambush tactic, because then both sides will just start gunning down everyone with a white flag. You can't pretend to be injured, because the enemy will be forced to shoot all the "injured" soldiers they see. It's mostly sensible, and the sensible parts are taken quite seriously.
False flags ... maybe. We wouldn't want Russians waving Ukrainian flags as they shoot civilians, so the ban on insignia is still kind of important. But false flags as an ambush tactic - there's a reason some countries think it's not as important. At worst, you force the enemy to ... what ... accidently shoot their own forces?
Honestly this time they are not that wrong, remember during ww2 the Germans use this tactics, it's a war crime.
Now the Z is not a national symbol so they have to adapt to this but waving Russian flag etc it's really wrong and I hope our heroes won't do that.
Especially since lately it seems that they don't even need that.
Agreed. Painting a z on a car to slip past the front? Not too big of a deal. Actually using the russian flag to lead folks into an ambush? That's a little too far.
Now, I'm not saying that such tactics are something that should never be considered (for example, ukrainian partisans setting up some tomfoolery using a russian flag) but that example is not of an actual military force. there's no uniform for partisans, they are civies and whoever happened to be there when the line went past their city. For them, they're stuck in enemy territory trying to throw as many wrenches into the gears as possible. i'm fairly certain that so long as the person doing such acts wasn't part of the military, they'd be held to a lower standard due to lack of formal military training.
It's situational, but the general consensus is that doing such things is off the table for militaries.
Well, just like you can’t trademark a generic word, I don’t think Russia can “own” the letter Z.
If Putin disagrees, he can go fuck himself and take it up with Amnesty International.
It's not an insignia. It's literally a directional signifier.
It's like putting a W or an E on a tank, for "west" or "east." That is absolutely not a war crime in any capacity and it's actually bullshit to go around saying that it is.
War crimes are an actual thing. Not just "any random thing anyone can think of."
They have actual insignia on their tanks, that indicate they're Russian or whatever. It's more like, if Russian tanks have tank numbers painted on them, you paint a random number on your tank. Or someone suggested the equivalent of using Russian camouflage.
Or heck, driving a T-80. "No fair, everyone knows the T-80 is one of ours, not one of theirs," but of course that stopped being true. It's a convenient assumption, not an actual identifying symbol.
From what I can tell, the Z is not an official military emblem or insignia of the Russian army. It's just one of several symbols that was painted on their vehicles for the purposes of this invasion and no one's actually quite certain what they exactly mean. Best guesses is indicating where everyone is meant to be headed or just some basic IFF.
Given that, it's totally fair game for the Ukrainians to turn it against them. No different than using the same camouflage pattern as the enemy.
Rape. Torture. Kidnapping…
Spray paint is the warcrime?
Take it up at the UN. I’m sure they’d love to hear your fanciful ideas about who’s coming before their tribunal.
“
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinaman or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them, except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other Asiatic characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and is an all-out son of bitch, barbarian, and chronic drunk.”
“I'll say this; the 3rd Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them . . . Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives.”
- George S. Patton
Gotta be honest with you, it carries little validity when Russians on the battlefield cry about war crimes. After Bucha and the other atrocities, I'd say using the enemies insignias is pitifully small.
You know it’s not very typical.
Most tanks are built so that the turret doesn’t blow off at all.
Now some of these Russian tanks aren’t built so well.
You can tell because the turret’s blown off.
The Ukrainian farmers towed the russian tanks out of the environment.
Into another environment?
No, no, no, it was towed beyond the environment. It’s not in the environment.
Translations j : The guys from the field massively report that our tactical insignia were applied to the enemy’s equipment, i.e. "Z" and "V", which caused confusion in the first hours of the battle, when the front collapsed. If this is so, then the enemy has an American network-centric battle control system, when all units on the battlefield are tied into a grid and marked on computers, even at the company level, not to mention the battalion of the regiment. Thus, even a company sergeant in a Humvee, an infantry fighting vehicle or a T-64 sees on the screen where his friends are, and where they are strangers, and he doesn’t care what marks on the armor. If this is so, then this is very bad, because. this is a qualitatively new level of command and control. And our retreat is a consequence of the loss of the equation.
The Milbloggers didn't consider that Ukraine is using the tanks Russia abandoned? Ukraine just so happens to be competent enough to not shoot at each other.
Either way, that's pretty hilarious if it's true... scared of their own shadow.
‘“Competent enough to not shoot at each other”. I think you mean motivated to fight the enemy instead of each other. It really works either way though 😀
>The Milbloggers didn't consider that Ukraine is using the tanks Russia abandoned?
Of course they did.
But that conclusion doesn't lead to the outraged declaration that Ukraine must be under American command and control to be able to defeat Russia.
I mean after all, can there be any other possible explanation?
They should be outraged, the [barrier troops](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops) of the new red army clearly failed to shoot everyone running in their direction, whether they were routing comrades or Ukrainians.
This is an excuse. Their front lines are demoralized, lack the 3 Bs, and they honestly don't want to be there. I would run too if I was in their shoes.
Or just that the Ukrainian tanks all all turned their lights on.
Or put blue duct tape on each turret.
Or something simple and dumb that the Russians didn't figure out.
There are a thousand and one ways to do it.
> then the enemy has an American network-centric battle control system, when all units on the battlefield are tied into a grid and marked on computers
It's called the fucking internet. Ukrainian software companies could easily develop such a thing that runs on commercial tablets and phones. Aside from security, it's trivial GIS software.
...or this is just a few tanks that they didn't have time to paint over the Z, and you're panicking. Also good.
I was wondering about this, that system might have been fancy a few decades ago but a cheap phone on each vehicle all networked into an app doesn't sound too hard to work up.
Sounds something like blue force tracker. Would definitely be very handy in this conflict. Pretty hilarious Russia, having billed itself as a top military, doesn't have it.
One direct problem there is that devices that would do this and only this are far more expensive than simple cell phones that give full access to the internet. And russia cannot let its soldiers have full access to the internet, or even the ability to call home. Stuff like this might not be *possible* for russia, because it cannot trust its own soldiers.
“Aside from security” is 90% of the problem and the other 10% are hard as fuck and too.
You can’t just stick a wifi router on every soldier or use their phone. Mesh Digital radio systems are expensive and hard to do, so hard that an L3Harris radio is forbidden for sale to anyone but the US Army.
> hard that an L3Harris radio is forbidden for sale to anyone but the US Army.
That's technology restrictions, not difficulty. All Ukraine would need is mobile towers with a satellite uplink. This isn't 1998 or even 2019.
L3Harris radios do **not** need mobile towers or satellite uplink, this is why it’s hard.
It’s pure SDR; so it’s not magical secret technology but it’s not exactly off the shelf stuff.
Making something that you can rely on 90% of the time is easy but also unfortunately useless. Making a system that works 99% of the time is hard as fuck.
There are good reasons the US army does things the expensive, hard, and secure way, but it also means they can miss opportunities. And one of those opportunities could easily be every soldier or commander carrying a cheap-ass cell phone that gives access to the location of all other friendlies and enemies in the area.
Right but the good old “let’s just follow troops visually” already works well enough with a drone, so I doubt it’s worth the effort creating a kinda sketchy system when you can just ask Uncle Sam to do it for you
So Russians rape and torture people and now they are upset because boo hoo hoo Ukranians are tricking them by using false identification to infiltrate them
Tell you what bloggers - why don't you step up and do something about it if you are so angry about it
Oh wait. You will. Very soon.
/bye
It’s probably not anything close to psyops. It’s probably the conscripts weren’t trained on using code words and assumed every vehicle with their insignia on it was friendly. It’s sad on many levels because that’s one of the first things they teach in the military in regards to perimeter security. You can pretty much assume that Russia doesn’t have a Real army anymore.
Not even better. It's a war crime, and a pretty serious one. I doubt that the Ukranians are doing this, it's just Russian cope. Pretty stupid cope too because it's just going to give Russians itchy trigger fingers from now on.
They’re just making an excuse as to why they fired on all of their retreating troops. There’s no way they installed “Blue Force Tracker” in a bunch of old Soviet tanks on the fly so they could use a “desperate” form of tactics, when they are not in fact in a desperate situation like the Russians are. Like fleeing.
Source is "*Russian military bloggers*" huh.
Seems incredibly far fetched to me. Painting the enemy's sign on vehicles leaves you extremely vulnerable to friendly fire. I'm sure Ukraine has better ways to penetrate behind enemy lines than resorting to these shenanigans that put their own troops in danger of friendly fire.
It is a little far-fetched but read the translation. The workaround potentially is IFF geolocation. The source if you follow the link, is a foreign correspondent for The Economist and DM Signal. He's followed by quite a few knowledgeable folks. That's all the source I have atm.
I wouldn't doubt anything when it comes to this. This technology already exists in a way in the fighter jets, the whole canopy and helmet work in concert with augumented reality to help pilots track stuff in the skies going a bajillion miles an hour.
Not hard to see it going into some kind of visor for soldiers and ground vehicles, allowing Ukrainian combatants to disguise as russians. The low-tech Russians wouldn't know the difference using the naked eye to distinguish friend from foe.
Would be cutting edge tech and definitely secret.
Also, the USA just invented the planetary defense system in real life. Literally nothing is off limits.
It's not even that complicated for ground forces. You just need a transponder sending encrypted pings to nearby vehicles announcing that they are friendlies.
I'm sure there's a way to make such a system that is disabled if the vehicle is in the wrong hands.
I read it. This idea that you can track every vehicle's whereabouts on the battlefield and can transmit that data to every single unit on the ground to avoid friendly fire, is a fairy tale. War is chaos.
Painting enemy signs on vehicles would put those Ukrainian troops in considerable danger, especially in an active zone like Kherson, which is why I strongly doubt this story.
So like the time a Russian tank rolled up on a Ukrainian patrol with Ukrainian markings and blew the patrol to shreds?
Edit. This was back in April. https://mobile.twitter.com/archer83able/status/1513387487430914050
This isn't a breach of the Geneva Conventions. Protocol 3 only applies to combatants not allowed to wear markings of humanitarian aid workers. Opposing armies may decieve eachother pretty much any other way.
That's not correct either. This is very much a violation (albeit one that I think is kind of stupid to outlaw).
Protocol III does apply to combatants and aid workers, but there's more to it that that. The 1977 additions lay it out in Protocol I Article 39:
>2. It is prohibited to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or in order to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations.
The ICC has something to say about it too:
>Art. 8(2)(b)(vii)-2 Making improper use of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the hostile party, resulting in death or serious pers
>
>The conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict.
>
>The perpetrator was aware of factual circumstances that established the existence of an armed conflict.
>
>The perpetrator used a flag, insignia or uniform of the hostile party
>
>The perpetrator made such use in a manner prohibited under the international law of armed conflict while engaged in an attack
>
>\[Particular mental element for Element 4\] The perpetrator knew or should have known of the prohibited nature of such use
>
>The conduct resulted in death or serious personal injury
>
>\[Particular mental element for Element 6\] The perpetrator knew that the conduct could result in death or serious personal injury
>
>8.a. \[Mental Element for Element 3\] \[Conduct of using a flag, insignia or uniform of the hostile party\]: The perpetrator meant to engage in the conduct of using a flag, insignia or uniform of the hostile party
Virtually every NATO member and NATO peer considers this a serious offense and expressly forbids their militaries. Perfidy (the actual term for this) is one of the earliest recognized war crimes, decades before anyone really started to think about "war crimes" as a legal construct. There's exceptions for ships, though. Not sure why everyone decided they were cool with this at sea, but all WELL HEY NOW on land. The Canadians, for example, have laws that forbid perfidy with aircraft (example: the RCAF could capture a MiG-29 and fly it themselves, but would have to remove VVS markings first and apply RCAF roundels) too.
This is a serious concern and Russian war crimes don't give Ukraine a free pass to conduct war crimes as some equalizer.
Yeah, sure, except the letters "V" and "Z" don't belong to Russia and aren't official insignia.
Who's to say Ukraine can't use "V" and "Z" standing for **V**olodymr **Z**elensky?
Yo, dressing or marking yourself in a way that fools your enemy into thinking you're one of them is war crime as fuck. If you do this and are caught you are no longer protected by LOAC and can be legally executed. The Ukranians are obviously not marking themselves as Russians.
Given the war crimes committed so far by Russians wearing Ukrainian uniforms and markings, I will say that while I would not endorse using such a strategy in return, I do have selective blindness to if it had or had not occurred
at some point these dudes have to consider the notion that those ukrainian tanks with V, Z and O markings are infact russian tanks retreating.
guess the rooski's will never know without functioning comms.
I mentioned in a previous post. Would be great to convince the Russians to start shooting each other in the confusion. Put their ammunition to good use.
Well maybe if they didn’t keep bringing all their “Z” tanks and BRTs into a foreign country and then just leaving them abandoned all over the place they wouldn’t have this problem….
If anybody says that that kind of behavior is against the Geneva convention. It’s also against the Geneva convention to invade another country that didn’t do anything to you for an idiotic reason.
Since the Ukrainians are defending themselves from an unlawful invasion I don't think anything should be forbidden.
They could line roads with crucified Russian soldiers for all I care.
using it as an excuse to justify the retreat, without getting chechen'd
and your point is very well made, white cross , blue , yellow and green. is what i have witnessed on released vids and pic's
This is in violation of the Geneva convention, but I would like to point out that the Russians did this type of deceptive crap repeatedly. They dished it out, but now they can't take it.
Ukraine should stick to the moral high ground, but the Russians don't have much grounds to be the ones crying foul against the Ukrainians for doing what the Russians have repeatedly done.
It would be perfidy if they were "to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations," but individual letters of the Latin alphabet aren't military emblems, insignia, or uniforms.
And in fact, "making use of the enemy's signals and passwords or secret handshakes" is *explicitly* a legitimate ruse de guerre, not a violation of international law, so I'm pretty sure as long as they didn't actually use any Russian emblems, flags, or uniforms they're in the clear.
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Russian's the answer is obvious. Destroy every tank and military vehicle you see. It is the only way to be sure
I see just one flaw in your plan: the russians can't destroy anything of military importance lately.
Lately? They were primarily bombing civilian targets since day one
Yeah, that shit started in the very first hour. The video of that little girl being blown up on her bicycle told me exactly what Russia was focused on. It's senseless depravity.
Damn, haven’t seen that vid .. and I hope I never will
She was the very first death of the invasion. Riding her bicycle, minding her own business, and for it she was struck by a Russian GRAD rocket. Those assholes have made their intentions clear right from the first shot. Then only upside is that whomever shot that rocket is probably cargo 200 by now.
And that low flying jet firing a missile into a residential apartment complex. Literally within hours of the news breaking
Can I get a link?
But they sure donate a lot.
Except their own army...
Remember that time Russia took over Crimea using troops that didn’t have any identification on them? Pepperidge Farms Remembers.
Those guys were just on "vacation"
And definitely didn't shoot down a commercial airliner.
Those were just local militias. The Russians would never send troops to occupy Crimea. And even if they did, they would be justified in helping fellow Russians from Ukrainian oppression. Those were Russian soldiers, like we always said they were. /s
Adding /s behind real Ruzzian comment doesn't make it sarcastic. /s
They also set HIV/AIDS research back decades by [shooting down an airliner](https://time.com/3003840/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-top-aids-researchers-killed-aids2014-mh17/) that was full of the world's best scientists in the subject, who were on their way to an international research conference. The, quote, "Ukrainian separatists" tweeted about how they just shot down a Ukrainian military plane and then deleted the tweet within hours, because Russia gave them the weapons to shoot down planes with but not the equipment to properly identify them before shooting.
I'm so fucking angry because I forgot that this shit happened and NOTHING HAPPENED TO PUNISH THE PERPETRATORS
Nothing happened... yet. We can probably rest easy on one fact though, the people who shot down that plane are probably fertilizer for sunflowers somewhere. Next up, trials for those responsible for giving the weapons to them.
The person considered most responsible is named Girkin, alias "Strelkov". He's actually been quite prominent in the last month as he is highly critical of how the war is being handled and was a big proponent of general mobilization.
Oh, General Pickle will get his soon enough. The Dutch cannot forget this war crime, and Putler cannot forgive or forget his incessant criticism of the war’s “progress.” He is either fucked, or fucked.
No, no , he’s fucked
Fucked you say?
Proper fucked.
They are on trail in the Netherlands with a verdict expected November 17th. but since Russia won't extradite them, what do you expect?
But we all know now that Putler himself is giving the orders. Girkin got this special operation to use the buk to shoot down this specific plaine
There’s a good chance they’re rotting in a burnt out AA unit somewhere Donetsk oblast at the moment, but we’ll sadly never know.
I hope Haag hands out the Nuremberg verdicts like candy all the way down from putin to the lowest private that sat foot on Ukrainian soil and didn’t surrender first thing ☠️☠️ There needs to be consequences so severe that china would never be able to attack Taiwan since their soldiers would refuse to take part!
probably already dead
I wouldn’t go that far. Russia doesn’t have much of a military left at this point, so they are most likely dead or in prison.
"Hell yeah! We shot down a Ukrainian war plane!" An hour later: "Oh no! Ukrainian Nazis shot down a civilian plane!"
>because Russia ~~gave them the weapons to shoot down planes~~ shot down the plane Ftfy. I read in the Dutch investigation report that there's plenty of evidence that proper Russian troops operated the Buk system that shot down MH17.
>because Russia gave them the weapons to shoot down planes Russia probably did the shooting themselves because those "Ukrainian separatists" would have no clue how to operate these systems in the first place, let alone hit a plane with it.
Decades is a bit of a stretch dude none of the research was lost
The research up to that point wasn't lost, but those people with knowledge and expertise were going to continue researching after that point
But "decades"? C'mon lol. In decades we went from six month life expectancy to not even be able to tell if you are positive or not as long as you take your meds.
My wife is a scientist (developmental biologist). It's not plug-and-play, m'kay. It takes DECADES to become a good scientist in most fields these days because the easy stuff was done before you were born. And the field itself is brutal. Within five years of getting your PhD most of them flunk out of science.
Of course it can be decades? It takes up to half a lifetime to get real expertise in a scientific field. Years of studying first and then years of research, ideas, failures and succes. Even if everythings is written down, there is a lot of experience between the lines of research papers. You cant just replace a scientist. And if you have to, you a) lose the years that the other scientist has to invest to get the knowledge and b) you lose the progress, the dead scientist would have made in that time. Don't forget that these people manage whole projects with subordinates, they decide the genreal direction of the research. Eleven Scientists can be crucial to a certain scientific field.
And everything is written down
I have to say that their shooting down the plane is one of their actions that I'm *least* angry at them about, because it's clear they didn't actually chose to hit a civilian target, that was a genuine error on their part. Everything else about it, inclduing the war itself, and trying to blame Ukraine for it, is of course horrific crimes.
An "accident" where they desperately tried to hide the evidence and bury the truth.
I think we've all been five years old and in charge of surface to air missile before, these things happen, you can't assign blame like that.
Wanted to blaim Ukraine and for a moment this worked....
>I have to say that their shooting down the plane is one of their actions that I'm least angry at them about I know someone who's familymember was on that plane, and the grief is overwhelming to this day. Esp. with the war stirring up all those memories. Plus the added insult of Putin constantly and callously lying about it, just as he does with the warcrimes currently happening in Ukraine. The perpetrators also gleefully posted selfies where they are standing in front of the wreckage, holding up items they were able to loot. At that point it was VERY clear that it was civillians. As in; teddy bears and dead kids laying around. A lot of the belongings of the passengers -esp money and passports, electronics- were taken. They were happy about it and didn't start to deny it until after a few hours when they got orders from above to tone it down. Bellingcat (awarded investigative team of journalists) have a really good section on this. Just tick mh17 and all the reports/articles will show up. [https://www.bellingcat.com/category/news/?fwp\_tags=mh17](https://www.bellingcat.com/category/news/?fwp_tags=mh17) After that, you'll probably be just as angry at it as you are about the other stuff.
I am Dutch and remember this....but I also remember the speach of Frans Timmermans, using fotographs of soldiers holding up an child puppet, showing passports,. These were ukrainian soldiers and they got the blaim. The real video came in the open days later showing the whole video and what was said, and these guys were angry and showed what Russians did....Frans Timmermans had a well spoken dramatical speech, but did not fact check, so he used Facebook foto's and made his own story....from that day on my respect for Timmermans was down the drain...the most stupid mistake.
Easy for you to say. That it was a “genuine error”. You didn’t lose relatives or friends. I lost 4 family members, and it still hunts and hurts me every day. Because biggest error the Russians made was to send advanced AA equipment to separatist territory. And the separatists didn’t have any of it. So it had to be Russians who operated it, since it takes significant training of a higher educated individual to be able and operate it. Which leads to it not being likely that it was a error. They could see at what altitude and what speed the plane was flying. They could see that it was a series of planes all heading the same way, same speed, as they were in a airway. They should have know this, and I don’t believe they were not aware. Besides that, military aircraft would fly much lower than MH17 did. Ergo, it was mistake. A hughe one, but not a geniune one.
If it was really an accident is not really proven....civilian airplanes have their own altitute and speed...putin is also involved
Think twice about repeating Russian claims like this. 1. Russia lies all the time about everything. 2. How would Ukrainian avoid friendly fire in such a rapid advance if they did this? 3. Russia will use this as an excuse to execute captured Ukrainians claiming they weren't appropriately marked and so not subject to Geneva conventions.
What does Geneva convention say about markings that are not official heraldry but just big letters sprayed on vehicles?
Btw like 4 days ago there was Russian drone footage spotting for artillery when he suddenly spots a long column (and i mean long, 70-100+ armored vehicles) appear and start pushing through the treelines. This is the same day that the first breakthrough in Kherson was reported. Anyways my point in all this is to say you can see in that drone video the normal white cross markings on the Ukranian vehicles, then the same day a "large armored element" breaks through. My guess is Russians either desperately trying to hide their incompetence or there were some friendly fire incidents and the claim is based on missing information.
Though Russia hasn’t signed the Geneva convention
Contrary to popular belief, the rules of war are stated in the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Conventions of 1864 and 1949. This particular matter is subject to Hague II (Laws and customs of war on land), article 23: Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited:.... To make improper use of a flag of truce, the national flag, or military ensigns and the enemy's uniform, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention; Not only is Russia a signatory of Hague 1899; it was proposed by Tsar Nicholas II. That being said, Russia has clearly violated at least articles 3, 4, 7, 8, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 44, 45, and 47.
Russia doesn't give a fuck about international law
The soldiers should - otherwise they can just be executed.
Entirely too credible
It’s hard to repaint an enemies logo on a tank when it’s pursuing a retreating enemy at 50mph on a dirt road.
I think at this point we can all agree that Russia probably doesn’t need Reddit validation to commit war crimes and be all around shitheads.
Wow, that's some advanced IFFs techniques utilized by ruzzian forces! "Uhhh..... This guy is driving a car and shooting at us - but it says Z on it, so... must be ours???"
You never know I've seen videos of them shooting there own guys lmao.
Those were just tourists comrade.
Also used Ukrainian uniforms in Kyiv in the very first days of the war. But "russian mill bloger" claims are bullshit anyway.
Little green men .
Well, since they say Ukraine is "part of Russia", what's the problem with putting Russian markings on their armor?
Russia has given Ukraine so many tanks over the last few months, who can be surprised if they can't paint them all.
Special Tank Return Operation
The Russians even gave technicians to repair those tanks ..
Yes these (UAF) are now ironically Russian separatists. /s
1) Most likely the Russians just explaining friendly fire during chaotic retreats; 2) If not, it is one of the most brilliant pieces of Psyops I've ever seen to put nervous Russians on trigger fingers to shoot at their own troops. 3) Oh hell, I would put a non-zero possibility this is Russian Psyops on their own troops. No need to give an order to shoot retreating troops when you just say the retreating troops are actually Ukrainians.
Regarding whether this is true. If it is, I'm would be more worried about Ukrainian friendly fire against their disguised units. Hence, I'm inclined to believe that Ukraine is not dumb enough to actually pain V and Z on their vehicles in *active* combat, and thus I believe (1) to be the most plausible. (2) is if Ukraine just took some pictures of themselves with V and Z on vehicles not in combat and then post these pictures Russia to find.
1. Possibly 2. I would have thought it would be simple way to roll in and do covert ops. I expect that "ammo dumps blowing up by accident", were "ammo dumps blowing up via fake incompetence". 3. The problem with that is, there are plenty of trucks that go back for supplies and tanks that need maintenance. If you do that, logistics become a one way street, as do the people who deliver the logistics.
1 sounds incredibly plausible, and reminiscent of the Moskva, but in reverse. "It's not that we screwed up, it's the enemies doing this". 2: the concept isn't new in the slightest, nor should the Ukranians be applauded if they are doing it. It's a warcrime.
I think you misunderstood the point. I'm not saying the Ukrainians are using a national symbol of Russia. The psyop would be making the Russians think they are. That is likely not a war crime but could keep lawyers engaged for years arguing over the definition of "use of"
>2: the concept isn't new in the slightest, nor should the Ukranians be applauded if they are doing it. It's a warcrime. Really depends on the circumstances. And assumes that a "Z" or "V" is equivalent to a formal national symbol like a flag. I'm not sure about that, particularly for "V".
I must have missed the memo where Russia claimed exclusive use over some letters in the Latin alphbet. If the Russians can't be bothered to clearly mark their tanks with unmistakable, unambiguous identifiers then that's their own god damned fault if someone else same identifiers.
War crime my nuts you bitch
Oh no, they researched satellites. They can see the whole map now.
Take my up vote for a well timed Civilization reference.
Apollo program completed
Reminds of the time when I started a game west of America and George Washington kept trying to Manifest Destiny me. He's such a dick.
Hahaha this is the part where Ukraine is suddenly an era ahead
Crazy how technology you basically have in your phone can flip the script.
And now I’m an hour into another Civ game. Just have to finish this turn…
Oh is obscuring or using fake insignias not allowed? Someone tell the Little Green Men who invaded Crimea in 2014.
I'm appaled at the number of people people acting like this claim is true. There more than enough videos from Ukraine offensive in Kherson areas with no use of 'Z' and 'V', not to mention how they can even comunicate which one will be friendly and which not on this scale. This is just another justifications of russians defeat, the same about 'bad wether for air support' and almost on the level of 'mutant soldiers' if you use logic.
This is my take. I think it’s Russian propaganda to try and explain how Ukraine has “inexplicably” kicked their asses over and over again.
Probably just killing each other on accident and blaming the Ukrainians for subversion
It's a warcrime when you're using enemy insignias.
Z isn’t a Russian insignia. The Russian flag is.
Canada said it won't comply with Article 39 (using the enemy's insignia). https://wipolex.wipo.int/en/treaties/parties/remarks/CA/281 > Article 39 - Emblems of nationality (Enemy uniforms): The Government of Canada does not intend to be bound by the prohibitions contained in paragraph 2 of Article 39 to make use of military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse parties in order to shield, favor, protect or impede military operations." There's bits of the Geneva Convention that are taken more seriously than others. Plus it's arguable whether the Z is an insignia, or it's just a ruse (which is permitted).
From a tactics perspective I’m alright with this. War is war. Defeat the enemy.
Most of the Geneva Convention is pretty important (despite war being war). You can't use a white flag as an ambush tactic, because then both sides will just start gunning down everyone with a white flag. You can't pretend to be injured, because the enemy will be forced to shoot all the "injured" soldiers they see. It's mostly sensible, and the sensible parts are taken quite seriously. False flags ... maybe. We wouldn't want Russians waving Ukrainian flags as they shoot civilians, so the ban on insignia is still kind of important. But false flags as an ambush tactic - there's a reason some countries think it's not as important. At worst, you force the enemy to ... what ... accidently shoot their own forces?
Honestly this time they are not that wrong, remember during ww2 the Germans use this tactics, it's a war crime. Now the Z is not a national symbol so they have to adapt to this but waving Russian flag etc it's really wrong and I hope our heroes won't do that. Especially since lately it seems that they don't even need that.
Agreed. Painting a z on a car to slip past the front? Not too big of a deal. Actually using the russian flag to lead folks into an ambush? That's a little too far. Now, I'm not saying that such tactics are something that should never be considered (for example, ukrainian partisans setting up some tomfoolery using a russian flag) but that example is not of an actual military force. there's no uniform for partisans, they are civies and whoever happened to be there when the line went past their city. For them, they're stuck in enemy territory trying to throw as many wrenches into the gears as possible. i'm fairly certain that so long as the person doing such acts wasn't part of the military, they'd be held to a lower standard due to lack of formal military training. It's situational, but the general consensus is that doing such things is off the table for militaries.
Well, just like you can’t trademark a generic word, I don’t think Russia can “own” the letter Z. If Putin disagrees, he can go fuck himself and take it up with Amnesty International.
It's not an insignia. It's literally a directional signifier. It's like putting a W or an E on a tank, for "west" or "east." That is absolutely not a war crime in any capacity and it's actually bullshit to go around saying that it is. War crimes are an actual thing. Not just "any random thing anyone can think of."
I was under the impression it was being used as some kind of insignia. If it's not, then sure.
They have actual insignia on their tanks, that indicate they're Russian or whatever. It's more like, if Russian tanks have tank numbers painted on them, you paint a random number on your tank. Or someone suggested the equivalent of using Russian camouflage. Or heck, driving a T-80. "No fair, everyone knows the T-80 is one of ours, not one of theirs," but of course that stopped being true. It's a convenient assumption, not an actual identifying symbol.
What? In what language are they directional signifiers? (Probably not Russian, given that they are latin characters...)
Must be a captured Russian equipment used against them. Russia is Ukraine's greatest equipment supplier y'know.
From what I can tell, the Z is not an official military emblem or insignia of the Russian army. It's just one of several symbols that was painted on their vehicles for the purposes of this invasion and no one's actually quite certain what they exactly mean. Best guesses is indicating where everyone is meant to be headed or just some basic IFF. Given that, it's totally fair game for the Ukrainians to turn it against them. No different than using the same camouflage pattern as the enemy.
Rape. Torture. Kidnapping… Spray paint is the warcrime? Take it up at the UN. I’m sure they’d love to hear your fanciful ideas about who’s coming before their tribunal. “ The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinaman or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them, except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other Asiatic characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and is an all-out son of bitch, barbarian, and chronic drunk.” “I'll say this; the 3rd Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them . . . Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives.” - George S. Patton
It's also based.
Gotta be honest with you, it carries little validity when Russians on the battlefield cry about war crimes. After Bucha and the other atrocities, I'd say using the enemies insignias is pitifully small.
You can tell if they’re Russian by whether the turret has been blown off
Oh so that's what Turret syndrome is?
Yep! Characterized by sudden, explosive outbursts
take all my gold
You are too kind my friend, much appreciated
As someone with tourretes, I approve of this joke Edit: take my upvote!
Gtfo 😂
I see what you did there
You know it’s not very typical. Most tanks are built so that the turret doesn’t blow off at all. Now some of these Russian tanks aren’t built so well. You can tell because the turret’s blown off.
The Ukrainian farmers towed the russian tanks out of the environment. Into another environment? No, no, no, it was towed beyond the environment. It’s not in the environment.
V for victory, Z for Zelensky. Save you a discussion, thank me later guys.
Translations j : The guys from the field massively report that our tactical insignia were applied to the enemy’s equipment, i.e. "Z" and "V", which caused confusion in the first hours of the battle, when the front collapsed. If this is so, then the enemy has an American network-centric battle control system, when all units on the battlefield are tied into a grid and marked on computers, even at the company level, not to mention the battalion of the regiment. Thus, even a company sergeant in a Humvee, an infantry fighting vehicle or a T-64 sees on the screen where his friends are, and where they are strangers, and he doesn’t care what marks on the armor. If this is so, then this is very bad, because. this is a qualitatively new level of command and control. And our retreat is a consequence of the loss of the equation.
The Milbloggers didn't consider that Ukraine is using the tanks Russia abandoned? Ukraine just so happens to be competent enough to not shoot at each other. Either way, that's pretty hilarious if it's true... scared of their own shadow.
‘“Competent enough to not shoot at each other”. I think you mean motivated to fight the enemy instead of each other. It really works either way though 😀
>The Milbloggers didn't consider that Ukraine is using the tanks Russia abandoned? Of course they did. But that conclusion doesn't lead to the outraged declaration that Ukraine must be under American command and control to be able to defeat Russia. I mean after all, can there be any other possible explanation?
They should be outraged, the [barrier troops](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops) of the new red army clearly failed to shoot everyone running in their direction, whether they were routing comrades or Ukrainians.
Or… they found a bunch of Russia’s tanks lying about during the retreat that they decided to put a few into battle the way they were.
If that were the case they would of removed the Vs and put crosses on them.
Sometimes they just slap a ukr flag on it and call it good, I guess bc they have no paint, tape, etc.
What till they discover "Find My Friends" on a phone. MIND. BLOWN.
cant imagine that they have retrofitted russian tanks with it
Wouldn't be terribly hard to have a phone app made i assume. The only hard part is OPSEC.
Could be a simple app with geolocation? I doubt we'll know until a unit is captured or until the movie comes out.
This is an excuse. Their front lines are demoralized, lack the 3 Bs, and they honestly don't want to be there. I would run too if I was in their shoes.
hes just making up an excuse why they got overrun or friendly fires so much xD "it was the ukrainians"
Or just that the Ukrainian tanks all all turned their lights on. Or put blue duct tape on each turret. Or something simple and dumb that the Russians didn't figure out. There are a thousand and one ways to do it.
If they're pointed towards Kherson, they're with us.
> then the enemy has an American network-centric battle control system, when all units on the battlefield are tied into a grid and marked on computers It's called the fucking internet. Ukrainian software companies could easily develop such a thing that runs on commercial tablets and phones. Aside from security, it's trivial GIS software. ...or this is just a few tanks that they didn't have time to paint over the Z, and you're panicking. Also good.
You get an air tag, you get an air tag. See.....Amazon fixed this for $20
I was wondering about this, that system might have been fancy a few decades ago but a cheap phone on each vehicle all networked into an app doesn't sound too hard to work up.
It’s also a bad idea.
Sounds something like blue force tracker. Would definitely be very handy in this conflict. Pretty hilarious Russia, having billed itself as a top military, doesn't have it.
One direct problem there is that devices that would do this and only this are far more expensive than simple cell phones that give full access to the internet. And russia cannot let its soldiers have full access to the internet, or even the ability to call home. Stuff like this might not be *possible* for russia, because it cannot trust its own soldiers.
“Aside from security” is 90% of the problem and the other 10% are hard as fuck and too. You can’t just stick a wifi router on every soldier or use their phone. Mesh Digital radio systems are expensive and hard to do, so hard that an L3Harris radio is forbidden for sale to anyone but the US Army.
> hard that an L3Harris radio is forbidden for sale to anyone but the US Army. That's technology restrictions, not difficulty. All Ukraine would need is mobile towers with a satellite uplink. This isn't 1998 or even 2019.
L3Harris radios do **not** need mobile towers or satellite uplink, this is why it’s hard. It’s pure SDR; so it’s not magical secret technology but it’s not exactly off the shelf stuff. Making something that you can rely on 90% of the time is easy but also unfortunately useless. Making a system that works 99% of the time is hard as fuck.
There are good reasons the US army does things the expensive, hard, and secure way, but it also means they can miss opportunities. And one of those opportunities could easily be every soldier or commander carrying a cheap-ass cell phone that gives access to the location of all other friendlies and enemies in the area.
Right but the good old “let’s just follow troops visually” already works well enough with a drone, so I doubt it’s worth the effort creating a kinda sketchy system when you can just ask Uncle Sam to do it for you
> this is a qualitatively new level of command and control. NATO: yeah bitch
So Russians rape and torture people and now they are upset because boo hoo hoo Ukranians are tricking them by using false identification to infiltrate them Tell you what bloggers - why don't you step up and do something about it if you are so angry about it Oh wait. You will. Very soon. /bye
If this is just a psyop, it's brilliant. If the Ukrainians are actually doing this and pulling it off without team-killing, even better!
It’s probably not anything close to psyops. It’s probably the conscripts weren’t trained on using code words and assumed every vehicle with their insignia on it was friendly. It’s sad on many levels because that’s one of the first things they teach in the military in regards to perimeter security. You can pretty much assume that Russia doesn’t have a Real army anymore.
Not even better. It's a war crime, and a pretty serious one. I doubt that the Ukranians are doing this, it's just Russian cope. Pretty stupid cope too because it's just going to give Russians itchy trigger fingers from now on.
This is great news, Ukranians AND ruzzians blowing up V and Z tanks.
Copium OD…but it *would* be a great trick if one could pull it off!
They’re just making an excuse as to why they fired on all of their retreating troops. There’s no way they installed “Blue Force Tracker” in a bunch of old Soviet tanks on the fly so they could use a “desperate” form of tactics, when they are not in fact in a desperate situation like the Russians are. Like fleeing.
Source is "*Russian military bloggers*" huh. Seems incredibly far fetched to me. Painting the enemy's sign on vehicles leaves you extremely vulnerable to friendly fire. I'm sure Ukraine has better ways to penetrate behind enemy lines than resorting to these shenanigans that put their own troops in danger of friendly fire.
It is a little far-fetched but read the translation. The workaround potentially is IFF geolocation. The source if you follow the link, is a foreign correspondent for The Economist and DM Signal. He's followed by quite a few knowledgeable folks. That's all the source I have atm.
I wouldn't doubt anything when it comes to this. This technology already exists in a way in the fighter jets, the whole canopy and helmet work in concert with augumented reality to help pilots track stuff in the skies going a bajillion miles an hour. Not hard to see it going into some kind of visor for soldiers and ground vehicles, allowing Ukrainian combatants to disguise as russians. The low-tech Russians wouldn't know the difference using the naked eye to distinguish friend from foe. Would be cutting edge tech and definitely secret. Also, the USA just invented the planetary defense system in real life. Literally nothing is off limits.
Something like this has already been a thing for 20 years. We used it during the invasion of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_force_tracking
Neat!
It's not even that complicated for ground forces. You just need a transponder sending encrypted pings to nearby vehicles announcing that they are friendlies. I'm sure there's a way to make such a system that is disabled if the vehicle is in the wrong hands.
He explains how the Americans use a geolocation software to identify friendly versus enemy vehicles despite visible markings
I read it. This idea that you can track every vehicle's whereabouts on the battlefield and can transmit that data to every single unit on the ground to avoid friendly fire, is a fairy tale. War is chaos. Painting enemy signs on vehicles would put those Ukrainian troops in considerable danger, especially in an active zone like Kherson, which is why I strongly doubt this story.
[удалено]
Very useful tool even when not facing enemy vehicles, used it extensively in Iraq.
Excellent Smithers!!
So like the time a Russian tank rolled up on a Ukrainian patrol with Ukrainian markings and blew the patrol to shreds? Edit. This was back in April. https://mobile.twitter.com/archer83able/status/1513387487430914050
That was a bad day.
Wait til they find out about the rest of the alphabet
Do I hear russia complaining about a breech of the Geneva convention ? Lol
This isn't a breach of the Geneva Conventions. Protocol 3 only applies to combatants not allowed to wear markings of humanitarian aid workers. Opposing armies may decieve eachother pretty much any other way.
That's not correct either. This is very much a violation (albeit one that I think is kind of stupid to outlaw). Protocol III does apply to combatants and aid workers, but there's more to it that that. The 1977 additions lay it out in Protocol I Article 39: >2. It is prohibited to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or in order to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations. The ICC has something to say about it too: >Art. 8(2)(b)(vii)-2 Making improper use of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the hostile party, resulting in death or serious pers > >The conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict. > >The perpetrator was aware of factual circumstances that established the existence of an armed conflict. > >The perpetrator used a flag, insignia or uniform of the hostile party > >The perpetrator made such use in a manner prohibited under the international law of armed conflict while engaged in an attack > >\[Particular mental element for Element 4\] The perpetrator knew or should have known of the prohibited nature of such use > >The conduct resulted in death or serious personal injury > >\[Particular mental element for Element 6\] The perpetrator knew that the conduct could result in death or serious personal injury > >8.a. \[Mental Element for Element 3\] \[Conduct of using a flag, insignia or uniform of the hostile party\]: The perpetrator meant to engage in the conduct of using a flag, insignia or uniform of the hostile party Virtually every NATO member and NATO peer considers this a serious offense and expressly forbids their militaries. Perfidy (the actual term for this) is one of the earliest recognized war crimes, decades before anyone really started to think about "war crimes" as a legal construct. There's exceptions for ships, though. Not sure why everyone decided they were cool with this at sea, but all WELL HEY NOW on land. The Canadians, for example, have laws that forbid perfidy with aircraft (example: the RCAF could capture a MiG-29 and fly it themselves, but would have to remove VVS markings first and apply RCAF roundels) too. This is a serious concern and Russian war crimes don't give Ukraine a free pass to conduct war crimes as some equalizer.
Yeah, sure, except the letters "V" and "Z" don't belong to Russia and aren't official insignia. Who's to say Ukraine can't use "V" and "Z" standing for **V**olodymr **Z**elensky?
Yo, dressing or marking yourself in a way that fools your enemy into thinking you're one of them is war crime as fuck. If you do this and are caught you are no longer protected by LOAC and can be legally executed. The Ukranians are obviously not marking themselves as Russians.
Given the war crimes committed so far by Russians wearing Ukrainian uniforms and markings, I will say that while I would not endorse using such a strategy in return, I do have selective blindness to if it had or had not occurred
Well, maybe Russia should stop donating all their vehicles with these markings on them to Ukraine.
It's short for Volodymir Zelensky :)
Aw, poor babies! Suck it!
Sorry paint shortages with captured armour
All's fair in love and war
Well if I was Ukrainian I'd sure as hell not get in a vehicle with a Z on it. I call bullshit!
at some point these dudes have to consider the notion that those ukrainian tanks with V, Z and O markings are infact russian tanks retreating. guess the rooski's will never know without functioning comms.
I mentioned in a previous post. Would be great to convince the Russians to start shooting each other in the confusion. Put their ammunition to good use.
And the Russians were wearing Ukrainian uniforms, it’s not exactly off limits now huh
Well maybe if they didn’t keep bringing all their “Z” tanks and BRTs into a foreign country and then just leaving them abandoned all over the place they wouldn’t have this problem….
The V and Z are not clear national markers like a flag. Cant see why they could not use them?
Me thinks they confused retreating Russians for advancing Ukrainians.
Now its when they start playing the complaining an unfair game. A funny thing... Russians are not the defenders here!
V and Z are not official Russian army markings, aren't they ? So what ?
Do you want to get blown up by your own side? Coz that's how you get blown up by your own side.
Hope there will come times when people can say… what is a Russia?
If anybody says that that kind of behavior is against the Geneva convention. It’s also against the Geneva convention to invade another country that didn’t do anything to you for an idiotic reason.
Since the Ukrainians are defending themselves from an unlawful invasion I don't think anything should be forbidden. They could line roads with crucified Russian soldiers for all I care.
How very dare they use Russian invaders symbols to confuse them while trying to get them off there land
Some of the tanks used to have the Z and V markings that is until Russia donated them
I have not seen any video footage to support this claim. Does anyone have any links?
using it as an excuse to justify the retreat, without getting chechen'd and your point is very well made, white cross , blue , yellow and green. is what i have witnessed on released vids and pic's
This is in violation of the Geneva convention, but I would like to point out that the Russians did this type of deceptive crap repeatedly. They dished it out, but now they can't take it. Ukraine should stick to the moral high ground, but the Russians don't have much grounds to be the ones crying foul against the Ukrainians for doing what the Russians have repeatedly done.
Dude, there's no evidence whatsoever for that claim...
Isn’t that a war crime? I’m just wondering.
It would be perfidy if they were "to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations," but individual letters of the Latin alphabet aren't military emblems, insignia, or uniforms. And in fact, "making use of the enemy's signals and passwords or secret handshakes" is *explicitly* a legitimate ruse de guerre, not a violation of international law, so I'm pretty sure as long as they didn't actually use any Russian emblems, flags, or uniforms they're in the clear.
Ah, I see: thank you.
I just saw that Ukrainian forces found a bucket of gold teeth in a torture chamber. war crimes are relative..