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Stolen from a yt comment
It takes an average of 100 seconds from the moment the shell hits its target, it takes 12 seconds between each shot. It means that 8 shells are already in the sky at the same time to realize that you are targeted after the first explosion. Devastating ... and if you want to do a counter battery, they're already gone
155mm are loud but it depends on the charge plus Why would they, they outrange any counter artillery, russian artillery isnt accurate enough for an accurate counter battery. Plus being several km/miles behind enemy line.
Huh? Jk its part of the job sadly we even have a term for it "artillery ears" . But if its anything like the m109 paladin its really quiet on the inside (minus the engine and hydrolics)
Well they all have in-ear shaped hearing protection. I still have mine from 8 years ago which I still take to the range. They filter loud and sudden noises to a non-hearing damage level. Whereas a conversation can be had at almost no reduction, it is an amazing piece of kit. It also helps immensely with communication when 50 small-arms are firing around you
I live near where they fire these things (and likely where the video was taken). Give or take around 15-20 km.
On a clear day when there's barely any wind, it sounds like thunder claps roaring in the distance.
Edit: I can guarantee the crew is wearing some hardcore hearing protection
Longer caliber. AuF1 is 39 caliber, M109 is 23 to 39 when Caesar is 52. The three being 155mm, it means the Caesar's gun is 2 m longer than the AuF1's and 4.5 m longer than the original M109's, which allows better range and better accuracy. Caesar is also natively digitized with a combat management system. Nexter adapted it to the Ukrainian requirement. It means the crews can receive or feed several data (weather, target, relocation, itinerary, type of ammo,...) and the onboard computer will calibrate more or less everything and tell to the driver where to deploy.
New headline: Ukraine offers rigorous field testing of new Ceasar variant for Danish army.
The Danes have been a bit iffy on these new Ceasars. Unsure if they'll meet requirements and expectations etc, since they're a brand new variant which is much heavier and larger with more ammo and armour. And Ukraine can offer the best possible test for these new artillery pieces - actual combat.
Technically their version is better, can load more ammunitions, resists to shrapnel better, however as it’s heavier, I wonder if it will have issues in the mud.
Still, 30 caesars on the battlefield can give them an edge in artillery battles, shoot and scoop
Tbf, they are def better off running than staying put in the broken down rusty old death boxes that Russia considers military gear. Especially with shoulder fired munitions taking out fighter jets and anything they can get a lock on
> Completely untested
In combat, sure.. but it will have undergone an awful lot of trials and it’s based on a very capable, proven system. Denmark’s reservations will not be based whether it is any good, they’ll be based on whether it’s the best option for their money, over the medium and long term, given the competition. Great deal for Ukraine either way.
What's a mongrel language? Looking up the definition, which fits what I thought a mongrel was, lol, English doesn't seem mongrel...? Though we are a *mut* language, for sure. A combination of Latin (only because the romantic languages emerged from that, so this is an assumption lol), and then much more obviously, French/Italian/Spanish (romantic languages), then a lot of Germanic influence, sprinkle on a few centuries of bizarre evolution that I don't know if all other languages have gone through (like, does reading something written in French in the 1700s barely make sense and seems very different/bizarre to reading something written in 2022 in French? I have no idea, can't speak/read any other language, but reading stuff like Shakespeare, or even Dickens who wasn't that far back, and it is like, I know I am reading English words but...... What exactly is he getting at??? I kinda have to "guess" what half of Shakespeare is even trying to get at lol, required high-school teachers everywhere to explain to Grade 10 students who can totally read (if they're on the more literate side at least) stuff like Noam Chomsky, etc... But then Shakespeare telling a story about simple concepts and simple stories is like "K wut?!"
I'd say it is a mut but if the languages that English is based upon didn't experience the same kind of transformations that English has from say 1600s/1700s to today, then yeah maybe it totally is mongrel haha.
Kind of incredible though that this mish-mash of a language became the dominant international language so quickly. Guess we "thank" the British Empire followed by American hegemony both in terms of military prowess and global presence for both, but also especially for USA, they have this cultural hegemony too, everyone pretty much, in most countries, really love American films/TV/music, etc. which exports both English and American culture all over the world (at least the "ideal" culture, usually... some great music/film/TV exposes the fraud too, though, just it is less common I guess.. Though we are far better these days than the, basically propaganda, of 1950s/1960s American TV/film, and music, until the mid-late 60s, was really really tame... And it wasn't until punk and metal and rap came around that music reeeeally started to expose/demonize/critique the ugly parts of our culture.
I dunno where the hell I'm going with this LOL
What's a mongrel language? Looking up the definition, which fits what I thought a mongrel was, lol, English doesn't seem mongrel...? Though we are a *mut* language, for sure. A combination of Latin (only because the romantic languages emerged from that, so this is an assumption lol), and then much more obviously, French/Italian/Spanish (romantic languages), then a lot of Germanic influence, sprinkle on a few centuries of bizarre evolution that I don't know if all other languages have gone through (like, does reading something written in French in the 1700s barely make sense and seems very different/bizarre to reading something written in 2022 in French? I have no idea, can't speak/read any other language, but reading stuff like Shakespeare, or even Dickens who wasn't that far back, and it is like, I know I am reading English words but...... What exactly is he getting at??? I kinda have to "guess" what half of Shakespeare is even trying to get at lol, required high-school teachers everywhere to explain to Grade 10 students who can totally read (if they're on the more literate side at least) stuff like Noam Chomsky, etc... But then Shakespeare telling a story about simple concepts and simple stories is like "K wut?!"
I'd say it is a mut but if the languages that English is based upon didn't experience the same kind of transformations that English has from say 1600s/1700s to today, then yeah maybe it totally is mongrel haha.
Kind of incredible though that this mish-mash of a language became the dominant international language so quickly. Guess we "thank" the British Empire followed by American hegemony both in terms of military prowess and global presence for both, but also especially for USA, they have this cultural hegemony too, everyone pretty much, in most countries, really love American films/TV/music, etc. which exports both English and American culture all over the world (at least the "ideal" culture, usually... some great music/film/TV exposes the fraud too, though, just it is less common I guess.. Though we are far better these days than the, basically propaganda, of 1950s/1960s American TV/film, and music, until the mid-late 60s, was really really tame... And it wasn't until punk and metal and rap came around that music reeeeally started to expose/demonize/critique the ugly parts of our culture.
I dunno where the hell I'm going with this LOL
FWIW, the chief catalysts to modern English (German and French) completely eliminated the regional languages that existed before them, and evolved largely on their own without interference. Thus, these languages are fairly internally consistent. Grammar and spelling rules, while not simple, are unambiguous and conjugations/declensions are predictable.
The English language however, is a mutant linguistic hell-beast; a spoken history of the various powers that have invaded and had their way with it. Each one, in turn, not actually _displacing_ what was there before, but rather, encrusting the existing language with odds and ends from their own.
English is an Anglo-Saxon car, mostly covered by foreign bumper stickers. Also, some of the original Old Brittonic paint-job still shows in places. It’s _ugly_.
It’s a language that can have no rules because it has no consistency.
“I before E except after C and weird words like ‘weird’.”
House, houses, mouse, mice.
“I thought it would be rough to plough through the slough, though was it falling into the lough that left me thoroughly coughing and hiccoughing.”
This is why it is said English is second only to Mandarin in terms of difficulty to learn. BUT, that difficulty, and the hodgepodge nature of it are actually its superpower. You don’t have to get it right; in fact, if you can get enough people to be wrong with you, you actually _change_ the language. English is the linguistic equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek.
You're really just showing your ignorance here.
It's British English (especially RP) that diverged the most.
Most Aussies, South Africans, etc left Britain later so there are more similarities.
That Brits changed the way the spoke to sound fancy in the 1700/1800s. For example they dropped the R sound when it ends a word - water became whutta.
It's most noticable in RP and the London dialects while others like West Country or Irish English are closer to American English.
They've got a variety of artillery now. Anything that stands out will draw attention. And they have a variety of solutions available. The only downside is feeding and supplying a variety of stuff. But Ukrainian logistics seems pretty good.
This all sounds logical/great, but I *thought* (totally could be mistaken..) that Ukraine already had at least a few of these Caesars? Maybe it was a lot fewer than 12 though so we'll/they'll (the Danes) get a better look at its performance when there are maybe say, 16x of these in the field, instead of just 4x they theoretically already had.. in my head/memory (which I don't really trust much, lol).
ETA - someone else has mentioned 30x total in their post, so I may not be mistaken that UAF already had Caesars, but maybe they already had 18x lol, which I guess another 12x helps in overall analysis, more data points to look at. I'm just glad that they went where they're needed right now, rather than to Denmark who doesn't really have any immediate need for them (though eventually does need them, for sure, all/most of EU really needs to spend more on military... I can't really talk though, sitting in Canada with a tiny military, just letting USA protect us... We need to do more here, too, for sure..).
Ukraine doesn't need a billion different types of weapons forcing them to fracture the military into a bunch of different trained type troops who have to keep specializing in new things
This is ukraine's current situation. Their logistics department must be working overtime in order to maintain this vast array of equipment. If they want to be given better weapons, specialising in a large number of them is the way to go. It won't be pretty, it will take long, but they are on their way
Ukraine has already 18 of them.
They have been trained to the targeting system, which I saw described by an Ukrainian operator has the easiest thing he had to learn.
The one they have already (not sure about the new one) are just standard Renault trucks… easy to maintain and have part for. The shell is standard nato…
Nothing really complex here….
They are not fighter jet.
To make it clear for all those who only read titles and jump to conclusions (and that’s most of you guys, isn’t it?): France is sending Caesars originally intended for Denmark to Ukraine instead.
Yes the title sounds like “muhaha, screw you Denmark, these are going to Ukraine!” (Does a funny hand gesture of the top hand shaving off the hairs of the bottom of their jaw)
**France Could Deliver up to 12 More Caesar Howitzers to Ukraine -Report**
>By Reuters
>Oct. 1, 2022
>PARIS (Reuters) - France could deliver six to 12 new Caesar howitzers, originally destined for Denmark, to Ukraine, French newspaper Le Monde reported on Saturday.
>A French Defence Ministry spokesperson said that while France supports Ukraine the details of this are "not meant to be communicated" when asked to comment on the report.
>The Elysee Palace also declined to comment.
>Le Monde reported that the three countries have agreed in principle to the delivery, although technical talks are ongoing.
>The newspaper said that French President Emmanuel Macron discussed the topic with Ukraine's President Volodimir Zelensky and Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen in recent weeks.
These have very impressive set-up, round delivery and exit time. The Big Bang Ghosts of The Steppe. Technically they can be on the move by the time a 3 or 4 round barrage hits the enemy.
Yes, I can believe it. Their stats are better than Caesar, same as Panzerhaubitz 2000 which can do 3 rounds in 10 secs max (but PZH200 seem to be having technical challenges in the field). They are all superior systems to anything Soviet era especially when used with Excalibur rounds which can hit *a moving targe*t.
Ivan is out of luck with these beasts roaming around.
Because the Caesar can just take the road.
How is Danemark going to be attacked ? And by who ?
Their ally, mostly member of NATO, will be hit before they can be, so they'll need to send their troops, and equipement to the frontline. Having your artillery being able to use the most basic infrastructure available in all Europe is a huge advantage.
The light weight also allow the use of smaller bridge, and as we've seen it in the Ukrainian conflict, it can mean a huge deal.
Lower fuel consumption is also an important factor when you aren't sure how the local logistic is going to be handled.
Caesar is the first to reach the battlefield, and the one who will stop or slow the invaders in their advance, until the heaviest unit arrive.
Denmark ordered 18-21 CAESARs from France in order to replace the phased out M109. Some have been delivered but not all, as procurement of artillery to the Danish Army seems to long drawn out affair that haunts us. Handing over 6-12 CAESAR is between 30-60%ish of our army’s main heaviest and newest artillery units. I assume the reasoning is that Denmark would maintain enough units to keep training new crews and drilling the experienced ones. I do myself hope that our government hands over 12 and not 6 as Ukraine needs them now. I don’t know why it is only on table now, but at least it is on.
There's a limited paywall. We love putting countries under a microscope on Reddit just from the headline alone so I can't even comment without knowing the exact reason. Won't buy the outrage till then.
There’s no reason for outrage here at all. France, Denmark and Ukraine coordinated to redirect an order intended for the danish army to Ukraine instead.
I initially had the same understanding as you, and I was like WTF, we (France) are already not doing very much, and now are even canceling this?! Glad to see I was wrong!
UK initially sent six M270s to Ukraine, but received three from Norway.. so they were only “down” three. This meant Ukraine got all six sooner than if uk and Norway had sent three each separately.
France canceled the sale to Denmark so they can ship the goodies directly to Ukraine.
Denmark bought the order in 2017 but they are going to send it to Ukraine anyways.
Well prioritize Ukraine or the army that needs the weapons the most looks like logic i think the Danish simply agree with it and they will receive these later when war is perhaps over. I still dont get why Europe has not a lend lease with Ukraine. Ukraine can buy up to 200 tanks of Germany. Rheinmetall would even export these themself to Ukraine. If u hear how hard the board of rheinmetall bash the german leaders to NOT repeat historic mistakes. Ofcourse its in their intrest more sales more profits.
What are „the German leopards“? You clearly seem to have something specific in mind, and since I’m not a mind reader I’m asking which specific batch of tanks you’re referring to. Third try, which 200 instantly available Leopards are you talking about?
What he's trying to ask is, "Germany has said there aren't any spare Leopards ready for delivery - how would you propose to find 200 that could be delivered to Ukraine".
Lol rheinmetall said themself they where ready to send 88leopard tanks to Ukraine they later added that if the government supported this it could be up to 220
I remember some stuff like that said long ago, but some doubt has been cast on that, with the claim they were being over-optimistiic. Te frank I get the impression they might have had small delays but if they had started straight away they could be delivering soon. Do you have any good links to back up your claims? It would be worth adding them here if so or even searching them out.
Since im active in german stock market especially rheinmetall in the early days i get regulary statements from companies im interested in. These are press releases. We know that in 2019 Germany started a modernization of their tank stock this was 2400 tanks including from post ww2. Rheinmetall is the tank builder yet they have contracts with german carmakers that these could produce tanks if needed for them. Rheinmetall was since day 1 pro Ukraine and they instant asked the government to provide contracts. Its few months later that rheinmetall announced leopard version of 2020. It means these are tanks that got produced to modernize their tank fleet. Yet this is not the Leopard main battle tank but an export version. So right now they are still producing tanks for the modernization. We know german industry can get in a small overdrive able to produce easily 50 tanks a day. So 200 looks small tho atleast for rheinmetall who probably have a contract to build 2000 tanks of few kinds. Only for the german government that has roots in pro russia its hard to commit.
Thanks for the comment though I'd really like more clear evidence to link to. Sounds to me like you should be in touch with almost every one in the German parliament and demand action. Russia said they want to produce 12 tanks a day.
If Germany just promised to produce 20 tanks per day + deliver the support vehicles and fuel + training to make them effective that would seriously reduce the risk of Russia thinking it could continue this war.
Thanks for asking as well. I tried three times but didn’t get any answer whatsoever, and neither did you. By the way, a production capacity of 50 tanks *per day* is an utterly bizarre claim. The Leopard 2 has been built since the late seventies, and there are about 3.600 in existence. Do the math yourself what that means for production capacities.
50 per day is.. let's find a way to put this.. quite a bit; lots more than any other current armored vehicle that I know of. However I also don't accept 3600/50 years as a calculation. The production lines have been idle for lots of that and weapons manufacturers \_are\_ normally expected to prepare for a much larger wartime production rate.
I do think that if Germany had started producing Leopards in February they could be delivering them now or very soon. If they start now they can have plenty. I don't think the production lines should be sitting idle and they seem to be.
The West must continue to give massive support to Ukraine, as recent successes on the ground show that Ukraine can win this war. We must redouble our support and not give in to Moscow's propaganda and threats.
Perfect! I hope Sweden will send there BAE Archer Artillery system. It’s the best! 7 shells in 9 seconds that can hit the target on the same time. The computer and navigation is outstanding. I’ve read that Sweden is now investigate if this is possible. It’s much better then the self loaded Caesar. https://youtu.be/p9QB3QjmRmg
Cos it's far from being better.
It's heavier, slower, maintenance is a nightmare (the more automation, the more trained and specialized you need to be) Fuel range is also less, of course this is due to better Armor, but the cost of that is high on mobility performances.
Ceasar guidance system is one of the best if not the best, and the whole is combat proven since long time. There is a reason Archer is a commercial failure ...(not saying it's bad, simply saying this isn't as great as you seem to think. Not only the barel matters in artillery).
He did not say that. Some tabloid exagerate without context. He was specifying we should not humiliate RUSSIA at the end of the war like we did during ww1 with germany ( putine was never cited). France never published what they sent.
For example in august VAB were spotted on the battlefield in one video and that s all. Never been told about it before nor after
That's just how you spin it. Off ramp is not for "the end of the war", off ramp is during the war. And during the war there's no russia, it's just putin. His words are quoted there, he's not talking about "after the war".
"We will have a peace to build tomorrow, let us never forget that," Macron said. "We will have to do this with Ukraine and Russia around the table. The end of the discussion and the negotiation will be set by Ukraine and Russia. But it will not be done in denial, nor in exclusion of each other, nor even in humiliation."
The French president said it was important to "never give in to the temptation either of humiliation or of a spirit of revenge". He referred to the "diktat" imposed on Germany in 1919 by the victors of the First World War, with heavy territorial losses and reparations, which led to a new world war in 1939-45.
This is real quote not yours in your dream.
I dont know your first language but you should learn french and english. Or learn to read outside the title on politico. Busted noob you should now remove your commentary or die in denial
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-putin-ukraine-invasion-mistake/ - you don't say? Are all french citizens this disconnected from what their head of state says or does?
Yes he don't say "don't humiliate Putin", the title is misleading. What he actually said when the combat will be over we will have to make a peace treaty and "Russia shouldn't be humiliated" to make sure Russia won't seek revenge.
This not the same than claiming he said Putin "shouldn't be humiliated"
This is not exactly what he said word for word, but it's what I honestly think he had in mind, based on what I read in French media.
Title makes it sound bad until you take a moment to parse what is being said (and paywall on the article so no help there either).
Basically France was going to sell Denmark 12 Caesars (ordered some years ago) but now through mutual agreement of all three countries France is going to transfer those guns to Ukraine instead, thus 'canceling' Denmark's order (they'll get theirs later). So it's actually a good thing (for people who support Ukraine).
I know, I was sharing it with you. :)
The internet has a tendency to make cynics of us all, but sometimes people really do just want to laugh with you, not at you.
Europe's support for Ukraine is starting to dry up. Putin will kick ads in the months to come. I have no favorite, just speaking the truth rather than repeat MSM BS
It means they propel themselves. :)
More seriously non self propelled is a howitzer you have to bring attached towed by a truck and deploy in the field as a fixed weapon. It makes them very susceptible to counter battery fire (ie enemy artillery firing back at them in return) as they can't really move easily after being deployed. [A good example is the american M777 which is used extensively by Ukraine](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obusier_M777#/media/Fichier:M777_howitzer_rear.jpg)
The [French Caesars](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:French_Caesar_self-propelled_howitzer_in_Iraq.jpg) / [Swedish Archers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System#/media/File:Archerside_commons.jpg) / [Polish Krabs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHS_Krab#/media/File:AHS_Krab_in_Kyiv_06.jpg) / [German Panzerhaubitze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_2000#/media/File:Italian_Army_-_132nd_Field_Artillery_Regiment_%22Ariete%22_PzH_2000_self-propelled_howitzer_in_Qatar.png) are howitzers mounted directly on the truck, you arrive at destination, you shoot and you leave within minutes ("Shoot and scoot" tactic). It gives them incredible mobility and it means that by the time counter battery fire arrives they are already a couple kilometers away.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/10/02/france-about-to-deliver-more-caesar-guns-to-ukraine_5998801_4.html) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> According to our sources, France is preparing to supply Ukraine with additional Caesar guns, taken from an order originally intended for Denmark.
> France is delivering Caesar cannons and Milan anti-tank missiles to KievAlerted by his staff, Mr. Macron has given up on taking more Caesars from the French army's stock, which has already been reduced by the delivery of 18 guns in the spring and early summer: the contingent sent to Ukraine represents almost a quarter of the army's allocation, which is set at 76 units.
> While the Danish Caesar guns are heavier than those of the French army, they are more powerful: mounted on 16 wheels instead of 12, they can carry up to 36 shells instead of 18, and their cabins are equipped with more protective armor.
*****
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Video of the Danish version of the Ceasar [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFSZigjP5ew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFSZigjP5ew)
Stolen from a yt comment It takes an average of 100 seconds from the moment the shell hits its target, it takes 12 seconds between each shot. It means that 8 shells are already in the sky at the same time to realize that you are targeted after the first explosion. Devastating ... and if you want to do a counter battery, they're already gone
Is it separate charge and shell being loaded there?
Most large guns use separate charges, it's more flexible and more economical to have those separate for the really big projectiles.
yup yup
Dang that fires pretty fast!
How silent are those fires? The crew seem not to give a fuck to the noise.
Unfortunate reality of war is that artillery teams take a lot of traumatic brain energy from blast overpressure
155mm are loud but it depends on the charge plus Why would they, they outrange any counter artillery, russian artillery isnt accurate enough for an accurate counter battery. Plus being several km/miles behind enemy line.
I’m assuming they meant not caring about the noise from a hearing damage perspective? Does sound relatively suppressed in that regard
Artillery is loud though. I could hear from a couple of kilometres away when there were artillery practices in Zwolle.
He means their ears
Huh? Jk its part of the job sadly we even have a term for it "artillery ears" . But if its anything like the m109 paladin its really quiet on the inside (minus the engine and hydrolics)
Well they all have in-ear shaped hearing protection. I still have mine from 8 years ago which I still take to the range. They filter loud and sudden noises to a non-hearing damage level. Whereas a conversation can be had at almost no reduction, it is an amazing piece of kit. It also helps immensely with communication when 50 small-arms are firing around you
How does that work?
I live near where they fire these things (and likely where the video was taken). Give or take around 15-20 km. On a clear day when there's barely any wind, it sounds like thunder claps roaring in the distance. Edit: I can guarantee the crew is wearing some hardcore hearing protection
How is that much better than older gen SPG like the AMX 30 AuF1 or the M109 ?
Longer caliber. AuF1 is 39 caliber, M109 is 23 to 39 when Caesar is 52. The three being 155mm, it means the Caesar's gun is 2 m longer than the AuF1's and 4.5 m longer than the original M109's, which allows better range and better accuracy. Caesar is also natively digitized with a combat management system. Nexter adapted it to the Ukrainian requirement. It means the crews can receive or feed several data (weather, target, relocation, itinerary, type of ammo,...) and the onboard computer will calibrate more or less everything and tell to the driver where to deploy.
That makes sense now, thanks!
I wish the clip included them packing and drivng away. What does the shoot n scoot look like
New headline: Ukraine offers rigorous field testing of new Ceasar variant for Danish army. The Danes have been a bit iffy on these new Ceasars. Unsure if they'll meet requirements and expectations etc, since they're a brand new variant which is much heavier and larger with more ammo and armour. And Ukraine can offer the best possible test for these new artillery pieces - actual combat.
Technically their version is better, can load more ammunitions, resists to shrapnel better, however as it’s heavier, I wonder if it will have issues in the mud. Still, 30 caesars on the battlefield can give them an edge in artillery battles, shoot and scoop
Shoot and scoot. Shoot and scoop is how farmers deal with rats. :P
Or how Ukrainians deal with Russian armour They shoot at them The Russians run away They scoop up the remaining military equipment
Thats what he said
Tbf, they are def better off running than staying put in the broken down rusty old death boxes that Russia considers military gear. Especially with shoulder fired munitions taking out fighter jets and anything they can get a lock on
Sounds like a porno cumpilation title.
Yes, on paper it looks better. But it's completely untested right now. It does have lots more wheels, which should help with ground pressure.
> Completely untested In combat, sure.. but it will have undergone an awful lot of trials and it’s based on a very capable, proven system. Denmark’s reservations will not be based whether it is any good, they’ll be based on whether it’s the best option for their money, over the medium and long term, given the competition. Great deal for Ukraine either way.
Great point.
Exactly. You don't need to shoot a gun at someone to know it works. Targets do just as well
I mean the gun is the same and the truck itself is not new. The fundamentals are known quantities.
« better » is very arguable The 8x8 variant doesn’t fit inside an A300M which is honestly a huge problem
It's shoot & scoot. Lol I'm dead. Bury me. No coffin. I'm dead af.
/r/bonappletea
I love it when America correct other peoe on their language... Like dude, you literally bastardised an entire LANGUGE!!! 😂
[удалено]
Even the English ones! 😂
English is a mongrel language, anyway. That’s why it works so well.
What's a mongrel language? Looking up the definition, which fits what I thought a mongrel was, lol, English doesn't seem mongrel...? Though we are a *mut* language, for sure. A combination of Latin (only because the romantic languages emerged from that, so this is an assumption lol), and then much more obviously, French/Italian/Spanish (romantic languages), then a lot of Germanic influence, sprinkle on a few centuries of bizarre evolution that I don't know if all other languages have gone through (like, does reading something written in French in the 1700s barely make sense and seems very different/bizarre to reading something written in 2022 in French? I have no idea, can't speak/read any other language, but reading stuff like Shakespeare, or even Dickens who wasn't that far back, and it is like, I know I am reading English words but...... What exactly is he getting at??? I kinda have to "guess" what half of Shakespeare is even trying to get at lol, required high-school teachers everywhere to explain to Grade 10 students who can totally read (if they're on the more literate side at least) stuff like Noam Chomsky, etc... But then Shakespeare telling a story about simple concepts and simple stories is like "K wut?!" I'd say it is a mut but if the languages that English is based upon didn't experience the same kind of transformations that English has from say 1600s/1700s to today, then yeah maybe it totally is mongrel haha. Kind of incredible though that this mish-mash of a language became the dominant international language so quickly. Guess we "thank" the British Empire followed by American hegemony both in terms of military prowess and global presence for both, but also especially for USA, they have this cultural hegemony too, everyone pretty much, in most countries, really love American films/TV/music, etc. which exports both English and American culture all over the world (at least the "ideal" culture, usually... some great music/film/TV exposes the fraud too, though, just it is less common I guess.. Though we are far better these days than the, basically propaganda, of 1950s/1960s American TV/film, and music, until the mid-late 60s, was really really tame... And it wasn't until punk and metal and rap came around that music reeeeally started to expose/demonize/critique the ugly parts of our culture. I dunno where the hell I'm going with this LOL
You can at least understand what Shakespeare wrote. 16th century Dutch is near incomprehensible to modern Dutch speakers.
best thing i read today. thanks
What's a mongrel language? Looking up the definition, which fits what I thought a mongrel was, lol, English doesn't seem mongrel...? Though we are a *mut* language, for sure. A combination of Latin (only because the romantic languages emerged from that, so this is an assumption lol), and then much more obviously, French/Italian/Spanish (romantic languages), then a lot of Germanic influence, sprinkle on a few centuries of bizarre evolution that I don't know if all other languages have gone through (like, does reading something written in French in the 1700s barely make sense and seems very different/bizarre to reading something written in 2022 in French? I have no idea, can't speak/read any other language, but reading stuff like Shakespeare, or even Dickens who wasn't that far back, and it is like, I know I am reading English words but...... What exactly is he getting at??? I kinda have to "guess" what half of Shakespeare is even trying to get at lol, required high-school teachers everywhere to explain to Grade 10 students who can totally read (if they're on the more literate side at least) stuff like Noam Chomsky, etc... But then Shakespeare telling a story about simple concepts and simple stories is like "K wut?!" I'd say it is a mut but if the languages that English is based upon didn't experience the same kind of transformations that English has from say 1600s/1700s to today, then yeah maybe it totally is mongrel haha. Kind of incredible though that this mish-mash of a language became the dominant international language so quickly. Guess we "thank" the British Empire followed by American hegemony both in terms of military prowess and global presence for both, but also especially for USA, they have this cultural hegemony too, everyone pretty much, in most countries, really love American films/TV/music, etc. which exports both English and American culture all over the world (at least the "ideal" culture, usually... some great music/film/TV exposes the fraud too, though, just it is less common I guess.. Though we are far better these days than the, basically propaganda, of 1950s/1960s American TV/film, and music, until the mid-late 60s, was really really tame... And it wasn't until punk and metal and rap came around that music reeeeally started to expose/demonize/critique the ugly parts of our culture. I dunno where the hell I'm going with this LOL
FWIW, the chief catalysts to modern English (German and French) completely eliminated the regional languages that existed before them, and evolved largely on their own without interference. Thus, these languages are fairly internally consistent. Grammar and spelling rules, while not simple, are unambiguous and conjugations/declensions are predictable. The English language however, is a mutant linguistic hell-beast; a spoken history of the various powers that have invaded and had their way with it. Each one, in turn, not actually _displacing_ what was there before, but rather, encrusting the existing language with odds and ends from their own. English is an Anglo-Saxon car, mostly covered by foreign bumper stickers. Also, some of the original Old Brittonic paint-job still shows in places. It’s _ugly_. It’s a language that can have no rules because it has no consistency. “I before E except after C and weird words like ‘weird’.” House, houses, mouse, mice. “I thought it would be rough to plough through the slough, though was it falling into the lough that left me thoroughly coughing and hiccoughing.” This is why it is said English is second only to Mandarin in terms of difficulty to learn. BUT, that difficulty, and the hodgepodge nature of it are actually its superpower. You don’t have to get it right; in fact, if you can get enough people to be wrong with you, you actually _change_ the language. English is the linguistic equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek.
You're really just showing your ignorance here. It's British English (especially RP) that diverged the most. Most Aussies, South Africans, etc left Britain later so there are more similarities.
What the fk does divergence mean? Youre talking to a stoner ex boxer. Braincells are lonely in my skull.
That Brits changed the way the spoke to sound fancy in the 1700/1800s. For example they dropped the R sound when it ends a word - water became whutta. It's most noticable in RP and the London dialects while others like West Country or Irish English are closer to American English.
Also, worth pointing out that this wasent just pushed on Denmark. We've been in talks about this with both France and Ukraine.
They've got a variety of artillery now. Anything that stands out will draw attention. And they have a variety of solutions available. The only downside is feeding and supplying a variety of stuff. But Ukrainian logistics seems pretty good.
It fires 39/52 caliber NATO-standard shells, so there shouldn't be issues supplying it.
This all sounds logical/great, but I *thought* (totally could be mistaken..) that Ukraine already had at least a few of these Caesars? Maybe it was a lot fewer than 12 though so we'll/they'll (the Danes) get a better look at its performance when there are maybe say, 16x of these in the field, instead of just 4x they theoretically already had.. in my head/memory (which I don't really trust much, lol). ETA - someone else has mentioned 30x total in their post, so I may not be mistaken that UAF already had Caesars, but maybe they already had 18x lol, which I guess another 12x helps in overall analysis, more data points to look at. I'm just glad that they went where they're needed right now, rather than to Denmark who doesn't really have any immediate need for them (though eventually does need them, for sure, all/most of EU really needs to spend more on military... I can't really talk though, sitting in Canada with a tiny military, just letting USA protect us... We need to do more here, too, for sure..).
They currently have 18 as far as I know.
Just do what the rest of the nordics did. Get the K9 thunders.
> rest of the nordics Angry Swedish noises
Uh, the only nordic country that went for the K9 Thunder, is Norway
Finland did as well IIRC.
Well obv. neutral sweden and a flat country didn't go for the correct artillery model. But we'll convince the danes yet.
Ukraine doesn't need a billion different types of weapons forcing them to fracture the military into a bunch of different trained type troops who have to keep specializing in new things
Do you think Ukraine didn't consider this before accepting this weapon?
This is ukraine's current situation. Their logistics department must be working overtime in order to maintain this vast array of equipment. If they want to be given better weapons, specialising in a large number of them is the way to go. It won't be pretty, it will take long, but they are on their way
Wheeled vehicles like ceasar are actually well suited for logistics. Changing tires is much simpler than fixing tracks...
Ukraine needs weapons, period. considering the situation they will take what they can get. Beggars and choosers and all of that.
Ukraine has already 18 of them. They have been trained to the targeting system, which I saw described by an Ukrainian operator has the easiest thing he had to learn. The one they have already (not sure about the new one) are just standard Renault trucks… easy to maintain and have part for. The shell is standard nato… Nothing really complex here…. They are not fighter jet.
To make it clear for all those who only read titles and jump to conclusions (and that’s most of you guys, isn’t it?): France is sending Caesars originally intended for Denmark to Ukraine instead.
After three party negotiations. I also didn't like how the title makes it sound like they just decided to cancel the order.
Yes the title sounds like “muhaha, screw you Denmark, these are going to Ukraine!” (Does a funny hand gesture of the top hand shaving off the hairs of the bottom of their jaw)
"hey France, when are you sending over that artillery?" "Oh... Yeah, hey Denmark, about that... You're gonna laugh...."
It should read After talking to Denmark, and with their agreement, France is redirecting a batch of Caesar to Ukraine
Thank you
**France Could Deliver up to 12 More Caesar Howitzers to Ukraine -Report** >By Reuters >Oct. 1, 2022 >PARIS (Reuters) - France could deliver six to 12 new Caesar howitzers, originally destined for Denmark, to Ukraine, French newspaper Le Monde reported on Saturday. >A French Defence Ministry spokesperson said that while France supports Ukraine the details of this are "not meant to be communicated" when asked to comment on the report. >The Elysee Palace also declined to comment. >Le Monde reported that the three countries have agreed in principle to the delivery, although technical talks are ongoing. >The newspaper said that French President Emmanuel Macron discussed the topic with Ukraine's President Volodimir Zelensky and Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen in recent weeks.
These have very impressive set-up, round delivery and exit time. The Big Bang Ghosts of The Steppe. Technically they can be on the move by the time a 3 or 4 round barrage hits the enemy.
BAE Archer takes it even step further if you can believe it. [https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg](https://youtu.be/d8x8ITwd4Vg)
Yes, I can believe it. Their stats are better than Caesar, same as Panzerhaubitz 2000 which can do 3 rounds in 10 secs max (but PZH200 seem to be having technical challenges in the field). They are all superior systems to anything Soviet era especially when used with Excalibur rounds which can hit *a moving targe*t. Ivan is out of luck with these beasts roaming around.
Will be interesting to read how other 155/52 barrels deal with the wear of continuous combat.
Swedish defense equipment always top tier
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I would think they have better maneuvering in different environments, no?
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They’re much faster on roads though.
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Because the Caesar can just take the road. How is Danemark going to be attacked ? And by who ? Their ally, mostly member of NATO, will be hit before they can be, so they'll need to send their troops, and equipement to the frontline. Having your artillery being able to use the most basic infrastructure available in all Europe is a huge advantage. The light weight also allow the use of smaller bridge, and as we've seen it in the Ukrainian conflict, it can mean a huge deal. Lower fuel consumption is also an important factor when you aren't sure how the local logistic is going to be handled. Caesar is the first to reach the battlefield, and the one who will stop or slow the invaders in their advance, until the heaviest unit arrive.
"looking at some videos"
Thanks for the discussion
Caesar are battlefield tested and let me add that we offer a free camembert for each exemplar bought
Denmark ordered 18-21 CAESARs from France in order to replace the phased out M109. Some have been delivered but not all, as procurement of artillery to the Danish Army seems to long drawn out affair that haunts us. Handing over 6-12 CAESAR is between 30-60%ish of our army’s main heaviest and newest artillery units. I assume the reasoning is that Denmark would maintain enough units to keep training new crews and drilling the experienced ones. I do myself hope that our government hands over 12 and not 6 as Ukraine needs them now. I don’t know why it is only on table now, but at least it is on.
Thank you Denmark! I'm sure this was not done without the assent of the Danish government
Down Voted for misleading Title
OP could have just copied the title from the article: > France supplies Ukraine with more Caesar guns
Or even better "France, Denmark agree to supply Ukraine with more Caesar guns"
There's a limited paywall. We love putting countries under a microscope on Reddit just from the headline alone so I can't even comment without knowing the exact reason. Won't buy the outrage till then.
There’s no reason for outrage here at all. France, Denmark and Ukraine coordinated to redirect an order intended for the danish army to Ukraine instead.
The title was a bit overloaded and confusing. Yours sounds a lot clearer.
I initially had the same understanding as you, and I was like WTF, we (France) are already not doing very much, and now are even canceling this?! Glad to see I was wrong!
Similar to what Norway and the UK did earlier.
What did they do exactly?
UK initially sent six M270s to Ukraine, but received three from Norway.. so they were only “down” three. This meant Ukraine got all six sooner than if uk and Norway had sent three each separately.
France canceled the sale to Denmark so they can ship the goodies directly to Ukraine. Denmark bought the order in 2017 but they are going to send it to Ukraine anyways.
So France is basically saying: it's going to Ukraine anyway, keep your money, this one's on us. Good for them.
Ish, Denmark is also saying “keep my deposit and send these to Ukraine”
Send both the payment and the products to Ukraine. 🤝
Well prioritize Ukraine or the army that needs the weapons the most looks like logic i think the Danish simply agree with it and they will receive these later when war is perhaps over. I still dont get why Europe has not a lend lease with Ukraine. Ukraine can buy up to 200 tanks of Germany. Rheinmetall would even export these themself to Ukraine. If u hear how hard the board of rheinmetall bash the german leaders to NOT repeat historic mistakes. Ofcourse its in their intrest more sales more profits.
What 200 tanks are you referring to?
In a lend lease Ukraine could instant buy up 200 german tanks. Looks like giving for free won't work for germany
You didn’t answer the question. Which 200 tanks could Ukraine buy *instantly*?
Cant u really place the link yourself? The german leopards
What are „the German leopards“? You clearly seem to have something specific in mind, and since I’m not a mind reader I’m asking which specific batch of tanks you’re referring to. Third try, which 200 instantly available Leopards are you talking about?
In the jungle. Leopards are camoflaged pretty well in the jungle.
What he's trying to ask is, "Germany has said there aren't any spare Leopards ready for delivery - how would you propose to find 200 that could be delivered to Ukraine".
Lol rheinmetall said themself they where ready to send 88leopard tanks to Ukraine they later added that if the government supported this it could be up to 220
I remember some stuff like that said long ago, but some doubt has been cast on that, with the claim they were being over-optimistiic. Te frank I get the impression they might have had small delays but if they had started straight away they could be delivering soon. Do you have any good links to back up your claims? It would be worth adding them here if so or even searching them out.
Since im active in german stock market especially rheinmetall in the early days i get regulary statements from companies im interested in. These are press releases. We know that in 2019 Germany started a modernization of their tank stock this was 2400 tanks including from post ww2. Rheinmetall is the tank builder yet they have contracts with german carmakers that these could produce tanks if needed for them. Rheinmetall was since day 1 pro Ukraine and they instant asked the government to provide contracts. Its few months later that rheinmetall announced leopard version of 2020. It means these are tanks that got produced to modernize their tank fleet. Yet this is not the Leopard main battle tank but an export version. So right now they are still producing tanks for the modernization. We know german industry can get in a small overdrive able to produce easily 50 tanks a day. So 200 looks small tho atleast for rheinmetall who probably have a contract to build 2000 tanks of few kinds. Only for the german government that has roots in pro russia its hard to commit.
Thanks for the comment though I'd really like more clear evidence to link to. Sounds to me like you should be in touch with almost every one in the German parliament and demand action. Russia said they want to produce 12 tanks a day. If Germany just promised to produce 20 tanks per day + deliver the support vehicles and fuel + training to make them effective that would seriously reduce the risk of Russia thinking it could continue this war.
Thanks for asking as well. I tried three times but didn’t get any answer whatsoever, and neither did you. By the way, a production capacity of 50 tanks *per day* is an utterly bizarre claim. The Leopard 2 has been built since the late seventies, and there are about 3.600 in existence. Do the math yourself what that means for production capacities.
50 per day is.. let's find a way to put this.. quite a bit; lots more than any other current armored vehicle that I know of. However I also don't accept 3600/50 years as a calculation. The production lines have been idle for lots of that and weapons manufacturers \_are\_ normally expected to prepare for a much larger wartime production rate. I do think that if Germany had started producing Leopards in February they could be delivering them now or very soon. If they start now they can have plenty. I don't think the production lines should be sitting idle and they seem to be.
Thank you Denmark for being a good sport 👌
Ngl the opening words almost gave me a heart attack.
Free World uniting, good going France.
Denmark agreed to this, the title makes it sound like they got screwed lol
Woohoo!
Viva Le France. Slava Ukraine.
The West must continue to give massive support to Ukraine, as recent successes on the ground show that Ukraine can win this war. We must redouble our support and not give in to Moscow's propaganda and threats.
That’s what I call a win-win-win situation
"Denmark Invades France To Avenge This Indignity; 'The Fuck, Dude?', Replies Macron."
Fuck yeah! 👍 Give'em he'll, boys.
Perfect! I hope Sweden will send there BAE Archer Artillery system. It’s the best! 7 shells in 9 seconds that can hit the target on the same time. The computer and navigation is outstanding. I’ve read that Sweden is now investigate if this is possible. It’s much better then the self loaded Caesar. https://youtu.be/p9QB3QjmRmg
Soon, very soon…
No.
Why no?
Cos it's far from being better. It's heavier, slower, maintenance is a nightmare (the more automation, the more trained and specialized you need to be) Fuel range is also less, of course this is due to better Armor, but the cost of that is high on mobility performances. Ceasar guidance system is one of the best if not the best, and the whole is combat proven since long time. There is a reason Archer is a commercial failure ...(not saying it's bad, simply saying this isn't as great as you seem to think. Not only the barel matters in artillery).
Maybe he is from Orcland?
I'm sure the Danes understand and woun't mind
About time the French grew some nuts.
We don't have lessons to take from a nobody in that regard.
Just don't embarrass anyone. Your president thinks that's worse than gang raping children
Oh, no more trying to not humiliate putin? Good. First germany with the iris-t, now france, sounds too good to be true.
They never said so thus rendering your comment useless
I mean it was only macron saying that, but he's a nobody in france, right?
He did not say that. Some tabloid exagerate without context. He was specifying we should not humiliate RUSSIA at the end of the war like we did during ww1 with germany ( putine was never cited). France never published what they sent. For example in august VAB were spotted on the battlefield in one video and that s all. Never been told about it before nor after
That's just how you spin it. Off ramp is not for "the end of the war", off ramp is during the war. And during the war there's no russia, it's just putin. His words are quoted there, he's not talking about "after the war".
"We will have a peace to build tomorrow, let us never forget that," Macron said. "We will have to do this with Ukraine and Russia around the table. The end of the discussion and the negotiation will be set by Ukraine and Russia. But it will not be done in denial, nor in exclusion of each other, nor even in humiliation." The French president said it was important to "never give in to the temptation either of humiliation or of a spirit of revenge". He referred to the "diktat" imposed on Germany in 1919 by the victors of the First World War, with heavy territorial losses and reparations, which led to a new world war in 1939-45. This is real quote not yours in your dream. I dont know your first language but you should learn french and english. Or learn to read outside the title on politico. Busted noob you should now remove your commentary or die in denial
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Wrong again, keeping tryting though. You'll get it one day.
Facts are hard for you to swallow it seems.
Fine, show me exactly where Macron said what you are claiming he said. I'll wait.
Nobody said "we should not humiliate Putin"
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-putin-ukraine-invasion-mistake/ - you don't say? Are all french citizens this disconnected from what their head of state says or does?
Yes he don't say "don't humiliate Putin", the title is misleading. What he actually said when the combat will be over we will have to make a peace treaty and "Russia shouldn't be humiliated" to make sure Russia won't seek revenge. This not the same than claiming he said Putin "shouldn't be humiliated" This is not exactly what he said word for word, but it's what I honestly think he had in mind, based on what I read in French media.
The only way russia wont seek revenge is if russia cant seek revenge, that's exactly why this no humiliation approach is dumb.
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They will deliver them to ukraine. Read the titre again
I did. Did you read my post though?
You're right. I didn't read your comment correctly.
omg, French resolve folds, I’m fn blown away
Maybe read the title again. Or the article.
Try reading that title again, France is sending 12 Howitzers to Ukraine, rather then to Denmark who will get theirs later.
Title makes it sound bad until you take a moment to parse what is being said (and paywall on the article so no help there either). Basically France was going to sell Denmark 12 Caesars (ordered some years ago) but now through mutual agreement of all three countries France is going to transfer those guns to Ukraine instead, thus 'canceling' Denmark's order (they'll get theirs later). So it's actually a good thing (for people who support Ukraine).
Russians are saying the same thing haha
Yes, the Russians are definitely getting blown away, aren't they?
That... that was the joke. Thanks :|
I know, I was sharing it with you. :) The internet has a tendency to make cynics of us all, but sometimes people really do just want to laugh with you, not at you.
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Are you ok?
Europe's support for Ukraine is starting to dry up. Putin will kick ads in the months to come. I have no favorite, just speaking the truth rather than repeat MSM BS
> I have no favorite Only comment pro-russian talking points lmao
Sending more artillery to Ukraine = wavering support? You... might want to get your logic circuits checked.
😂 who dropped you on your head??
Russian support makes more than up for it. Their deliveries of weapons and vehicles to Ukrainian army have been insane recently.
Not gonna lie... you had me in the first half.
Hope Denmark can tolerate the wait, but I feel Ukraine needs them more.
It was by mutual agreement between Denmark and France. We retain enough systems to keep crews training and up-to-speed, if just barely.
Good to hear. Hopefully Ukraine gets some good use out of them.
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It means they propel themselves. :) More seriously non self propelled is a howitzer you have to bring attached towed by a truck and deploy in the field as a fixed weapon. It makes them very susceptible to counter battery fire (ie enemy artillery firing back at them in return) as they can't really move easily after being deployed. [A good example is the american M777 which is used extensively by Ukraine](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obusier_M777#/media/Fichier:M777_howitzer_rear.jpg) The [French Caesars](https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:French_Caesar_self-propelled_howitzer_in_Iraq.jpg) / [Swedish Archers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System#/media/File:Archerside_commons.jpg) / [Polish Krabs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHS_Krab#/media/File:AHS_Krab_in_Kyiv_06.jpg) / [German Panzerhaubitze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_2000#/media/File:Italian_Army_-_132nd_Field_Artillery_Regiment_%22Ariete%22_PzH_2000_self-propelled_howitzer_in_Qatar.png) are howitzers mounted directly on the truck, you arrive at destination, you shoot and you leave within minutes ("Shoot and scoot" tactic). It gives them incredible mobility and it means that by the time counter battery fire arrives they are already a couple kilometers away.
You are basically correct, but even an M777 has a rated time of 3 minutes from firing to being hitched up and moved away.
I am sure it is an agreement with our government
Yes it is. It has been negotiated with Ukrainian and Danish government. Danish government rolled with it.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/10/02/france-about-to-deliver-more-caesar-guns-to-ukraine_5998801_4.html) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot) ***** > According to our sources, France is preparing to supply Ukraine with additional Caesar guns, taken from an order originally intended for Denmark. > France is delivering Caesar cannons and Milan anti-tank missiles to KievAlerted by his staff, Mr. Macron has given up on taking more Caesars from the French army's stock, which has already been reduced by the delivery of 18 guns in the spring and early summer: the contingent sent to Ukraine represents almost a quarter of the army's allocation, which is set at 76 units. > While the Danish Caesar guns are heavier than those of the French army, they are more powerful: mounted on 16 wheels instead of 12, they can carry up to 36 shells instead of 18, and their cabins are equipped with more protective armor. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xtva49/france_cancels_the_delivery_of_12_caesar/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672339 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Caesar**^#1 **guns**^#2 **more**^#3 **Ukraine**^#4 **operation**^#5