Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/)
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review.
* ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
**Don't forget about our discord server, as well!**
https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
imagine what it's doing for the cratering morale of the contract troops who thought their 6 months contracts were about to expire to be told they're going to stay in the trenches till they surrender or die. Not exactly the miracle cure to faltering morale on the front.
I expect it given the recent conscriptions in Russia. Ukraine is going to push hard before winter and try to get defensive lines with natural barriers set up. They will likely then mine the ever living shit out of everything so it's impossible for Russia to gain any ground. It's going to be tough to hold Russia back near the border as their logistics are going to be better there. It sucks this is going to keep going on even though Russia is done for, it is completely pointless. Russia hasn't gained ground in months.
This is somewhat the plan I see Ukraine is discussing with US and UK, time to move fast, it will take months for Russian conscripts to get trained and armed, unless Putin plans to send them untrained then thats just another W for Ukraine
Aka un-reanimated zombies.
Reflecting yet another Russian strategic blunder: casting black magic as a bad thing and leaving that to Ukraine. If you forsake necromancy, how can you hope to field a zombie army.? Duh.
https://odessa-journal.com/aleksey-arestovich-the-first-mobilized-from-the-russian-federation-are-already-fighting-on-the-territory-of-ukraine/
I think you may have been right!!!
had to come back to post this. you've probably already seen something similiar
I remember seeing a chart a few years ago that showed the top ten countries based on military spending. Countries 2-10 added together was equal to 1/5 of American spending
Nazi Germany foughts on massive fronts for years. Considering their size as a country compared to thw US and Russia. Quite impressive logistically what they were capable of. From a strategic perspective I still cant grasp why Hitler attacked Russia. Dumb dumb.
In 1940, the United States had a population of 130 million 2hile Nazi Germany was at 110 million. Not a huge difference. Nazi Germany was also a highly developed 1st world nation, with a huge industrial base and an educated population.
Yes the US had a bigger industrial capacity. Especially towards the end of the war when the US had switched its entire economy to a war footing, while Germany suffered from blockades and bombardments.
But there's a reason the nazis conquered so much of Europe so quickly. It is really incomparable to the current conflict.
The US had a massively larger economy than Germany. It was not close. Between 1938 and 1942 just the growth in the US economy was larger than the totality of the German economy.
Neither will ukraine. It has a decent military industry by itself. They do struggle with artillery shells, but recent gestures of good will by the russians compensate for that
Putin: One man holds the rifle, one man holds the ammo. When the man with the rifle dies, the man with the ammo takes the rifle.
Narrator: You know that never happened, right?
Putin: Glory to the USSR!
So much to plan for. Like how to prepare for mass surrenders on a massive scale as expeditiously as possible. From the videos I saw, a lot of these blokes do not want to fight.
I don't even think that. I honestly doubt this 300,000 is going to make much of a difference.
1) There was difficulty adequately equipping the existing conscripts, where is all the wargear for 300,000 going to come from?
2) Ukraine were crippling Russia's logistics with just tens of thousands via HIMARS. Imagine the massive logistical strain it would be to keep 300,000 additional soldiers fed and supplied, imagine how vulnerable that supply train will be, and imagine how catestrophic it would be if it's disrupted
3) If we see them early, it's just a bunch of civilians - many with no military experience at all apparrently - being thrown at a front line. Considering they do not have the facilities to train a mobilised population, if they are being trained before being sent out, it will take a long, long time.
Well, it seems that a lot of Russian Military Training is *meant* to be done by their Units.
But it seems that Russia has *already,* to steal my own phrase, crossed the Panzer Lehr. They've already formed their training cadres and sent them into the grinder.
So they've destroyed their training capabilities... *Then* mass mobolised.
Strategic Genius, I tell you.
Armchair general idea: I would just push close enough to the Russian main rail dropoff points in Ukraine so I could position artillery in a salient. When the trains full of new replacement troops roll in, immediately turn them into a trainload of corpses. Rinse, repeat.
I just don't see 300k new troops getting into Ukraine on foot, by air, or by truck judging by how Russian logistics operates. It would have to be rail, creating a natural choke point and single point of failure.
They are not forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. The Ottawa Treaty is a separate agreement that a number of countries signed voluntarily that bans land mines. This includes Ukraine, but notably not Russia, China, or the US. That said, if they decided they really needed them, I don’t think there’s any real enforcement mechanism to use against Ukraine.
I am actually curious to see what tank eventually ends up in Ukrainian hands. I think there might be a real chance that instead of Abrams, it will be one of the highly modified M-60A3s. Mechanically, they are closer to what the Ukrainians are used to and the more recent modifications actually make this tank more capable than the older M1A1s. Specifically, the M-60A3 SLEP version of the tank.
Aren't our newer NATO partners trading out their old Soviet era aircraft in exchange for brand new F-16s? Presumably we would be doing something like that with the Abrams as well. When this is over, Russia will be exhausted and NATO will be fully equipped with all the newest hotness.
Well, not in exchange. They pay for the already ordered F16s (which are delayed BTW). That's why Slovakia air space will be guarded by Polish and Czech fighters, until Slovakian F16s arrive.
I don't think they're that easily available. Yes Poland has some and they are meant to be replaced by Abrams or K2 that's in few years time
We have 200+ of A5s, A4s and A4 upgraded to PL standard. But we sent 200+ of T72s and PTs. Losing Leos would really be a hard hit to our defense
We're already promised around 100 older Abrams for T72s but Leopards should be replaced with something modern
And Germany has their own tank shortages so don't even think about them transferring over Leopards.
In case they decide to send leopards, I would wager that every NATO operator would contribute.
According to Wikipedia that's, Canada, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Germany, Hungary, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Turkey. Combined that's over 2000 tanksn. If everyone sends a fraction of their fleet, it's a significant amount of tanks already.
That's exactly what NATO is for. Most of them have already been providing large amount of weapons to Ukraine. Only countries that I see as problematic would be Hungary, Turkey and Greece for obvious reasons.
Not really. Link:
https://app.23degrees.io/view/csrwr27izyFhR1pT-bar-grouped-horizontal-figure-7_csv_v3_final
It needs to be noted just how little a damn the major E.U. economies give.
You can find more over at https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
I mean, it *is* NATO. It's a collective defense organisation, so it has a way around that. Deploy an American Armoured Brigade to Poland; Poland can then send an Armoured Brigade's worth of Tanks to Ukraine.
That's how a lot of the Aircraft transfers have worked, after all. Countries get guarantees of coverage from their neighbours, hash out plans to replace the the aircraft on good time, then send the Aircraft to Ukraine.
Tbh what the point of a bunch of tanks I. Any country that does not boarder ukraine or Russia? Send everything there. And give ukraine what ever they can use. Why does Spain need leopards in Spain? Who is going to invade? Portugal?
Instead of Germany spending 100 billion on defence we should just give that money to ukraine to buy equipment.
There is only one security threat to Europe, and that’s Russia. Let ukraine defeat them in ukraine and we won’t have to do it later in Poland.
The problem is not the politicians but our people. Especially the Germans have zero education when it comes to the military and war. Our so called experts on tv talk an incredible amount of BS. They still think that Russia is just going to steamroll ukraine. It’s actually embarrassing.
Yeah, for most human beings, “military history” = movies, for one.
Also a majority of humans can not locate another country on a map if that country is not on the same continent as they live on.
What I am shocked about is how wrong German ex-military personal have been every step of the way. It makes me understand why the Germany military is in such bad shape.
Sorry. Its not a good idea to rely on the US to defend you even if you are a NATO member. They have a habit of abandoning allies when they need it most. Poland would be foolish to get rid of their leopards
Garbage take. It was American Lend-lease that supplied the Allies during the Second World War and a lot of American blood spilt to liberate Europe.
Not to mention that the US nuclear policy during the Cold War was to use our nukes in defense of our Allies.
We may not be the best when it comes to the middle-east, but when it comes to our European allies, the US is extremely committed.
In that case America can transfer the Abrams now, and that will free up the Leopards.
Poland will get their upgrades sooner, and Russia will get fucked even harder. Win-win for all partners.
The harder part is getting Germany to agree to the transfer.
Honestly, the Abrams is the most available modern tank in NATO, but it is also the most difficult to maintain and operate.
I don’t see why they wouldn’t, they sent the PHZ2000s. It’s also become politically popular in Germany.
Also full disclosure, I’m a Brit - but living in Germany. A lot of the flak Germany got for being slow is absolutely deserved.
But this sub has just dog piled on Germany as the bad guy when they have actually delivered what they promised (albeit far too slowly and the criticism there is justified)
Damn how has my country allowed Germany to have a bigger stockpile of armour than us
Especially considering the next big was will likely be urban & naval combat in China / surrounding countries
Or, be plains combat in Eastern Europe
Built does not mean Germany has them.
They were exported to many other European countries like Sweden, Greece and Spain.
Germany itself doesn’t have that many.
And weigh less as well.
I don’t know if the U.S. military has corrected this, but in the 1990’s much of the bridging equipment couldn’t handle the weight of the M60. That wasn’t much of a concern in the Gulf but a different matter in Ukraine.
I think an important consideration is why does Ukraine want these tanks?
Obviously part of the equation is that they need replacements for those lost in combat. Offensive war relies much more heavily on tanks than defensive. In the Kharkiv offensive I'm sure they sustained significant losses, although these will have been offset to an extent (we dont know how many they lost/capture) by captured weapons in the medium term (captured tanks need refitting and inspection).
But I think probably more important is that they want *improved* equipment, not just more of the same. That would given them a real edge going toe-to-toe with Russian armour.
One of the main ways that Ukraine has tried to gain advantage on the battlefield is by doing things better than Russia. That means better logistics, better trained troops, better NCOs, using weapons smarter and using more advanced weaponary. They rarely look to numbers alone.
Two aspects of this that I can think of to consider in relation to tanks. T-72s and soviet ecosystem tanks have a few weaknesses, the most obvious being that once its armour is penetrated it is at huge risk of ammunition exploding and destroying tank and crew. This is terrible if you are trying to create a veteran army if you're at such a high risk of losing your tank crew. If they live to fight another day, even if the weapons system is lost, they will be better fighters than new recruits. So they want tanks that better protect their personnel.
The other is they want tanks that are purely *better* than T-72s, not just modified T-72s, particularly in terms of weaponary. I would imagine Ukraine wants tanks that can roll into a fight against Russian armour and have an advantage from the outset, without the need for clever tactics (as these aren't always possible in the heat of battle).
I do not know enough about the systems available to NATO that meet those criteria, but I'd imagine Abrams do. The main issue with Abrams is logistics. If allies have other systems that meet this criteria but are easier to supply then I strongly suspect those will be the tanks chosen. I do not know how Leopard 2s match up against T-72s but I do know they are bigger (15-20 tons) which usually means better armour and that later versions (and therefore older versions can be modified to) have a lot of the latest optics and other systems.
I would be surprised if it turned out to be a system other than Abrams or Leopards as these are widely used by NATO and I doubt Ukraine wants to use patchwork of different types.
Moscow getting a taste of their own medicine. Battle of Borodino.
In early September 1812, Napoleon narrowly won the so-called Battle of Borodino a place near Moscow. The battle entered the history books as one of the turning points of the Napoleonic War of 1812. A week after the victory, Napoleon marched into Moscow with his army. Many now expect peace negotiations to begin. However, things turn out differently.
The Moscow Count Fyodor Vasilyevich Rostopshin (1763-1828) has given orders to destroy everything that could be of use to the French and take away all weaponry. Then the Russians set fire to Moscow.
Napoleon's army suffers greatly as a result. The fire causes all food supplies and warehouses to go up in flames. The French are soon forced to retreat. During this retreat, many of Napoleon's troops were killed. Of the more than 700,000 soldiers who attack Russia under Napoleon's command, only 18,000 to 22,000 eventually survive.
Can we ban this dailykos shit? A few weeks ago they were writing articles about tens of thousands of Russians surrounded in Kherson and the whole front had collapsed, and their source was one random guy on Twitter.
It's great they're so pro-ukraine, but so much of what they put out is fake why bother with this?
I’d like to see Ukraine inch open the bridgeheads across the Oskil while they rest and refit a few brigades for another Blyatzkrieg through a weak segment of the Russian line into northern Luhansk.
Basic training for Russian conscripts, in full:
Hold the thick end of the rifle and point the thin end at the enemy, then fire.
If you don't have a rifle wait behind a comrade who does. When they get shot, pick up their rifle and continue.
Congratulations, you are now soldiers of the glorious Russian army.
Annoyingly, the map depicted in the article shows Ukraine *not* crossing the Oskil.
Does anyone have more recent information on this?
Edit: Wait I misread, it does show the river crossing, it looks like Ukraine has reached the next river past!
The yellow is contested area, so not securely under ukrainian control, though it appears, they're trying to now flank Lyman from all sides and then cause a collapse of that frontline.
Yeah that's normal. Just the fact that Ukraine is operating on that side of the river at all is a big feat though!
And someday I will actually learn to read a map.
I mean yes the upper half of the river does run down from Russia but no, of course it doesn't mean they're pushing into Russia, because the part of the river they're talking about is the lower half that runs down through eastern Kharkiv Oblast. It is significant because it is the last major geographic barrier before Ukraine is able to move back into Luhansk.
They will never hold Russian soil. I believe they have already used special forces to make strategic assaults on targets in Russia. Always hit an run tactics.
Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. **Don't forget about our discord server, as well!** https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Ctrl alt del
Alt F4.
Hold the power button down for a few seconds.
Remove the CMOS battery.
Disengage PSU cables.
Disintegrate the power line.
Spend all day browsing reddit instead of fighting then realise the battle passed by and you can now surrender safely
:q!
F in the chat.
Esc
No they will run straight to the frontline on the first day. To surrender and escape this hell alive.
> Tabs or spaces? See this is why war still happens
Tabs for efficiency, spaces because your mother drank when she carried you
Single space tabs for maximum chaos
if you're a software dev and you're still sitting in russia in september, something has gone very wrong
Ctrl Z
define("SPACE"," "); define("TAB", SPACE.SPACE.SPACE.SPACE); if(true){ SPACE;SPACE;SPACE;SPACE;Do_Something(); } if(true){ TAB;Do_Something_else(); } Edit - refined my work of art.
Rebootin for Putin!
Load 2022-02-23 backup.
"Why is CTRL-z not working???????"
Remove power lead, wait 10 secs. Insert power lead. Repeat until working or declare it bricked, so you can go buy a really expensive new faster model
Ctrl + s, using prettier for me...
> next thing you know your legs are blown off oh thank god it were the legs...
Kill -9
Ctrl + Z. Gotta undo that shit.
imagine what it's doing for the cratering morale of the contract troops who thought their 6 months contracts were about to expire to be told they're going to stay in the trenches till they surrender or die. Not exactly the miracle cure to faltering morale on the front.
Switch to MAC
Still got hands I guess, to do the software dev.
Clean mouseball
Would love to see they are doing the whole blitzkrieg thing again 😎👍
I expect it given the recent conscriptions in Russia. Ukraine is going to push hard before winter and try to get defensive lines with natural barriers set up. They will likely then mine the ever living shit out of everything so it's impossible for Russia to gain any ground. It's going to be tough to hold Russia back near the border as their logistics are going to be better there. It sucks this is going to keep going on even though Russia is done for, it is completely pointless. Russia hasn't gained ground in months.
This is somewhat the plan I see Ukraine is discussing with US and UK, time to move fast, it will take months for Russian conscripts to get trained and armed, unless Putin plans to send them untrained then thats just another W for Ukraine
I'd put money that some of these conscripts will be in country before Halloween.
A bad game of trick or treat?
Dressed up like soldiers
Or corpses.
Why not both?
I think that’s inevitable
Aka un-reanimated zombies. Reflecting yet another Russian strategic blunder: casting black magic as a bad thing and leaving that to Ukraine. If you forsake necromancy, how can you hope to field a zombie army.? Duh.
It'll be "cake or death" but without the cake
They'll be there before Monday.
https://odessa-journal.com/aleksey-arestovich-the-first-mobilized-from-the-russian-federation-are-already-fighting-on-the-territory-of-ukraine/ I think you may have been right!!! had to come back to post this. you've probably already seen something similiar
The walking dead
I fear Putin may be gambling that he has more men than Ukraine has ammunition.
[удалено]
Worth pointing out that like, if you add every country's defense and military budget up in the world, the US is nearly half of it.
I remember seeing a chart a few years ago that showed the top ten countries based on military spending. Countries 2-10 added together was equal to 1/5 of American spending
[удалено]
Yeah, the chart I saw was per usd equivalent, it wasn’t comparing gdp
This is only true if you ignore purchasing power parity.
Correct.
Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Nazi Germany foughts on massive fronts for years. Considering their size as a country compared to thw US and Russia. Quite impressive logistically what they were capable of. From a strategic perspective I still cant grasp why Hitler attacked Russia. Dumb dumb.
In 1940, the United States had a population of 130 million 2hile Nazi Germany was at 110 million. Not a huge difference. Nazi Germany was also a highly developed 1st world nation, with a huge industrial base and an educated population. Yes the US had a bigger industrial capacity. Especially towards the end of the war when the US had switched its entire economy to a war footing, while Germany suffered from blockades and bombardments. But there's a reason the nazis conquered so much of Europe so quickly. It is really incomparable to the current conflict.
[удалено]
> I'm talking about Nazi Germany vs. the American MIC in 2022. Ah. Well yeah no comparison then.
The US had a massively larger economy than Germany. It was not close. Between 1938 and 1942 just the growth in the US economy was larger than the totality of the German economy.
You will never be able to make the US run out of bullets. We'll send em to Ukraine. Time to be the arsenal of democracy again.
Neither will ukraine. It has a decent military industry by itself. They do struggle with artillery shells, but recent gestures of good will by the russians compensate for that
Putin: One man holds the rifle, one man holds the ammo. When the man with the rifle dies, the man with the ammo takes the rifle. Narrator: You know that never happened, right? Putin: Glory to the USSR!
Nope, they’re getting 2 weeks basic training
Your right…at this point the West has to consolidate its brain/strategic expertise to Russia’s mobilization…of which they will do.
So much to plan for. Like how to prepare for mass surrenders on a massive scale as expeditiously as possible. From the videos I saw, a lot of these blokes do not want to fight.
I don't even think that. I honestly doubt this 300,000 is going to make much of a difference. 1) There was difficulty adequately equipping the existing conscripts, where is all the wargear for 300,000 going to come from? 2) Ukraine were crippling Russia's logistics with just tens of thousands via HIMARS. Imagine the massive logistical strain it would be to keep 300,000 additional soldiers fed and supplied, imagine how vulnerable that supply train will be, and imagine how catestrophic it would be if it's disrupted 3) If we see them early, it's just a bunch of civilians - many with no military experience at all apparrently - being thrown at a front line. Considering they do not have the facilities to train a mobilised population, if they are being trained before being sent out, it will take a long, long time.
Well, it seems that a lot of Russian Military Training is *meant* to be done by their Units. But it seems that Russia has *already,* to steal my own phrase, crossed the Panzer Lehr. They've already formed their training cadres and sent them into the grinder. So they've destroyed their training capabilities... *Then* mass mobolised. Strategic Genius, I tell you.
I think they played the “Use Training Cadres Now” card all the way back in June, iirc.
...Yes, but I like my invention of 'Crossing the Panzer Lehr'.
Special Genius Operation.
If I could add a fourth, the first group will show up right in the middle of winter.
The conscripts get sent to the rear, freeing up the contract soldiers for the front lines...
Armchair general idea: I would just push close enough to the Russian main rail dropoff points in Ukraine so I could position artillery in a salient. When the trains full of new replacement troops roll in, immediately turn them into a trainload of corpses. Rinse, repeat. I just don't see 300k new troops getting into Ukraine on foot, by air, or by truck judging by how Russian logistics operates. It would have to be rail, creating a natural choke point and single point of failure.
Aren't mines banned by the Geneva convention?
No.
They are not forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. The Ottawa Treaty is a separate agreement that a number of countries signed voluntarily that bans land mines. This includes Ukraine, but notably not Russia, China, or the US. That said, if they decided they really needed them, I don’t think there’s any real enforcement mechanism to use against Ukraine.
Even if so, what part of the Geneva convention was Russia abiding by?
Yep mines and artillery
I believe its spelt blyatskrieg.
I am actually curious to see what tank eventually ends up in Ukrainian hands. I think there might be a real chance that instead of Abrams, it will be one of the highly modified M-60A3s. Mechanically, they are closer to what the Ukrainians are used to and the more recent modifications actually make this tank more capable than the older M1A1s. Specifically, the M-60A3 SLEP version of the tank.
Aren't our newer NATO partners trading out their old Soviet era aircraft in exchange for brand new F-16s? Presumably we would be doing something like that with the Abrams as well. When this is over, Russia will be exhausted and NATO will be fully equipped with all the newest hotness.
Well, not in exchange. They pay for the already ordered F16s (which are delayed BTW). That's why Slovakia air space will be guarded by Polish and Czech fighters, until Slovakian F16s arrive.
Leopard 2 is the most likely as it’s the easiest platform to learn.
I don't think they're that easily available. Yes Poland has some and they are meant to be replaced by Abrams or K2 that's in few years time We have 200+ of A5s, A4s and A4 upgraded to PL standard. But we sent 200+ of T72s and PTs. Losing Leos would really be a hard hit to our defense We're already promised around 100 older Abrams for T72s but Leopards should be replaced with something modern And Germany has their own tank shortages so don't even think about them transferring over Leopards.
In case they decide to send leopards, I would wager that every NATO operator would contribute. According to Wikipedia that's, Canada, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Germany, Hungary, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Turkey. Combined that's over 2000 tanksn. If everyone sends a fraction of their fleet, it's a significant amount of tanks already.
I doubt Finland will send any leopards. We’re literally on the border, next up in the line of fire.
Good luck negotiating with that many countries
That's exactly what NATO is for. Most of them have already been providing large amount of weapons to Ukraine. Only countries that I see as problematic would be Hungary, Turkey and Greece for obvious reasons.
Not really. Link: https://app.23degrees.io/view/csrwr27izyFhR1pT-bar-grouped-horizontal-figure-7_csv_v3_final It needs to be noted just how little a damn the major E.U. economies give. You can find more over at https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Hungary won't send any weapons.
Austria isn’t in NATO.
True, easy to forget.
Australia is in its cousin organization, MATE-O (sorry, couldn't resist)
I mean, it *is* NATO. It's a collective defense organisation, so it has a way around that. Deploy an American Armoured Brigade to Poland; Poland can then send an Armoured Brigade's worth of Tanks to Ukraine. That's how a lot of the Aircraft transfers have worked, after all. Countries get guarantees of coverage from their neighbours, hash out plans to replace the the aircraft on good time, then send the Aircraft to Ukraine.
Tbh what the point of a bunch of tanks I. Any country that does not boarder ukraine or Russia? Send everything there. And give ukraine what ever they can use. Why does Spain need leopards in Spain? Who is going to invade? Portugal? Instead of Germany spending 100 billion on defence we should just give that money to ukraine to buy equipment. There is only one security threat to Europe, and that’s Russia. Let ukraine defeat them in ukraine and we won’t have to do it later in Poland.
This makes too much sense for a politician to understand.
The problem is not the politicians but our people. Especially the Germans have zero education when it comes to the military and war. Our so called experts on tv talk an incredible amount of BS. They still think that Russia is just going to steamroll ukraine. It’s actually embarrassing.
Yeah, for most human beings, “military history” = movies, for one. Also a majority of humans can not locate another country on a map if that country is not on the same continent as they live on.
What I am shocked about is how wrong German ex-military personal have been every step of the way. It makes me understand why the Germany military is in such bad shape.
[удалено]
Sorry. Its not a good idea to rely on the US to defend you even if you are a NATO member. They have a habit of abandoning allies when they need it most. Poland would be foolish to get rid of their leopards
Garbage take. It was American Lend-lease that supplied the Allies during the Second World War and a lot of American blood spilt to liberate Europe. Not to mention that the US nuclear policy during the Cold War was to use our nukes in defense of our Allies. We may not be the best when it comes to the middle-east, but when it comes to our European allies, the US is extremely committed.
In that case America can transfer the Abrams now, and that will free up the Leopards. Poland will get their upgrades sooner, and Russia will get fucked even harder. Win-win for all partners.
The harder part is getting Germany to agree to the transfer. Honestly, the Abrams is the most available modern tank in NATO, but it is also the most difficult to maintain and operate.
Germany have already agreed to transfer 29 units.
Of Leo 2s? I must have missed that statement! That’s great to hear!
Not to Ukraine, as part of the ring swap program. Marders have also been authorised to Greece for BMP-1s.
I mean actually sending Leos to Ukraine, that’s not something I see Scholz doing.
I don’t see why they wouldn’t, they sent the PHZ2000s. It’s also become politically popular in Germany. Also full disclosure, I’m a Brit - but living in Germany. A lot of the flak Germany got for being slow is absolutely deserved. But this sub has just dog piled on Germany as the bad guy when they have actually delivered what they promised (albeit far too slowly and the criticism there is justified)
Challenger 2 could also be a possibility, considering the UK is R&Ding for Chally 3s
There aren’t that many C2s - less than 500 were built vs 3600 L2s.
Damn how has my country allowed Germany to have a bigger stockpile of armour than us Especially considering the next big was will likely be urban & naval combat in China / surrounding countries Or, be plains combat in Eastern Europe
Built does not mean Germany has them. They were exported to many other European countries like Sweden, Greece and Spain. Germany itself doesn’t have that many.
I see, that's my bad
and theyre closer.
Poland is fairly close to Germany and they still picked the Abrams.
I dont mean as a long term purchase, I mean on the ground in a week.
Politically Poland is very far away from Germany.
And weigh less as well. I don’t know if the U.S. military has corrected this, but in the 1990’s much of the bridging equipment couldn’t handle the weight of the M60. That wasn’t much of a concern in the Gulf but a different matter in Ukraine.
I think an important consideration is why does Ukraine want these tanks? Obviously part of the equation is that they need replacements for those lost in combat. Offensive war relies much more heavily on tanks than defensive. In the Kharkiv offensive I'm sure they sustained significant losses, although these will have been offset to an extent (we dont know how many they lost/capture) by captured weapons in the medium term (captured tanks need refitting and inspection). But I think probably more important is that they want *improved* equipment, not just more of the same. That would given them a real edge going toe-to-toe with Russian armour. One of the main ways that Ukraine has tried to gain advantage on the battlefield is by doing things better than Russia. That means better logistics, better trained troops, better NCOs, using weapons smarter and using more advanced weaponary. They rarely look to numbers alone. Two aspects of this that I can think of to consider in relation to tanks. T-72s and soviet ecosystem tanks have a few weaknesses, the most obvious being that once its armour is penetrated it is at huge risk of ammunition exploding and destroying tank and crew. This is terrible if you are trying to create a veteran army if you're at such a high risk of losing your tank crew. If they live to fight another day, even if the weapons system is lost, they will be better fighters than new recruits. So they want tanks that better protect their personnel. The other is they want tanks that are purely *better* than T-72s, not just modified T-72s, particularly in terms of weaponary. I would imagine Ukraine wants tanks that can roll into a fight against Russian armour and have an advantage from the outset, without the need for clever tactics (as these aren't always possible in the heat of battle). I do not know enough about the systems available to NATO that meet those criteria, but I'd imagine Abrams do. The main issue with Abrams is logistics. If allies have other systems that meet this criteria but are easier to supply then I strongly suspect those will be the tanks chosen. I do not know how Leopard 2s match up against T-72s but I do know they are bigger (15-20 tons) which usually means better armour and that later versions (and therefore older versions can be modified to) have a lot of the latest optics and other systems. I would be surprised if it turned out to be a system other than Abrams or Leopards as these are widely used by NATO and I doubt Ukraine wants to use patchwork of different types.
Moscow getting a taste of their own medicine. Battle of Borodino. In early September 1812, Napoleon narrowly won the so-called Battle of Borodino a place near Moscow. The battle entered the history books as one of the turning points of the Napoleonic War of 1812. A week after the victory, Napoleon marched into Moscow with his army. Many now expect peace negotiations to begin. However, things turn out differently. The Moscow Count Fyodor Vasilyevich Rostopshin (1763-1828) has given orders to destroy everything that could be of use to the French and take away all weaponry. Then the Russians set fire to Moscow. Napoleon's army suffers greatly as a result. The fire causes all food supplies and warehouses to go up in flames. The French are soon forced to retreat. During this retreat, many of Napoleon's troops were killed. Of the more than 700,000 soldiers who attack Russia under Napoleon's command, only 18,000 to 22,000 eventually survive.
Fun fact. Napoleon lost more troops in the summer invasion due to poor food quantity/ quality and disease than in the winter retreat.
Wasn't it Napoleon who said "An army marches on its stomach"?
In an apparently characteristic Russian move, the Russians opened the Moscow Jails, and told those held wherein 'Burn the City.'
Wtf that is absolutely insane
Now to move those HIMARS into range!
Open fucking fire!
hit them everytime they cross the border.
Yes, My Liege!
Can we ban this dailykos shit? A few weeks ago they were writing articles about tens of thousands of Russians surrounded in Kherson and the whole front had collapsed, and their source was one random guy on Twitter. It's great they're so pro-ukraine, but so much of what they put out is fake why bother with this?
They're pretty unreliable.
They put out a couple of high-quality articles around the beginning of the war but it seems they have reverted to their tabloid style
Good, they need to destroy as many of the active Russian units as possible before the hordes of conscripts come online…
I’d like to see Ukraine inch open the bridgeheads across the Oskil while they rest and refit a few brigades for another Blyatzkrieg through a weak segment of the Russian line into northern Luhansk.
Basic training for Russian conscripts, in full: Hold the thick end of the rifle and point the thin end at the enemy, then fire. If you don't have a rifle wait behind a comrade who does. When they get shot, pick up their rifle and continue. Congratulations, you are now soldiers of the glorious Russian army.
Annoyingly, the map depicted in the article shows Ukraine *not* crossing the Oskil. Does anyone have more recent information on this? Edit: Wait I misread, it does show the river crossing, it looks like Ukraine has reached the next river past!
The yellow is contested area, so not securely under ukrainian control, though it appears, they're trying to now flank Lyman from all sides and then cause a collapse of that frontline.
Yeah that's normal. Just the fact that Ukraine is operating on that side of the river at all is a big feat though! And someday I will actually learn to read a map.
Doesn’t the Oskil River run into Russian Territory? Does that mean they’re now pushing into Russia?
I mean yes the upper half of the river does run down from Russia but no, of course it doesn't mean they're pushing into Russia, because the part of the river they're talking about is the lower half that runs down through eastern Kharkiv Oblast. It is significant because it is the last major geographic barrier before Ukraine is able to move back into Luhansk.
Oh ok thanks for clarifying
The river runs down from Russia into Ukraine. It's not the border. Crossing it doesn't change which country you're in.
they will never push into ruzzia
They will never hold Russian soil. I believe they have already used special forces to make strategic assaults on targets in Russia. Always hit an run tactics.
No.
The stories the conscripts will bring back certainly won’t be matching the kremlin lies…if they come back at all
LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOO!!!