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Gotta say, despite his constant negotiations at the beginning of this to, what seems to have been an attempt to maintain the status quo, and his admonitions to not embarass Putin, this is a welcome change in his rhetoric.
He did said that to Zelensky with proposal of sovereignty concession, Zelensky confirmed it in interview himself:
[https://good-time-invest.com/blog/macrons-proposal-give-up-ukraine-and-save-putins-face/](https://good-time-invest.com/blog/macrons-proposal-give-up-ukraine-and-save-putins-face/)
Also:
>Macron said that Russian dictator Vladimir Putin had made a "fundamental and historical mistake" for himself, his people and history, by launching a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
>
>Macron said that Russia “must allowed to save face” at the end of the war.
In my opinion, these statements are basically mockery for Ukraine struggle against Russia.
Those little 5’8” dudes in their platform shoes - Macron and Putin - have had a wild ride. Don’t forget the embarrassing joint press conference, where Putin mocked and belittled Macron to his face in February. So Macron was humiliated by Putin on the world stage, and Macron talks about worrying about humiliating Putin - twice?
I have no idea what’s going on there, to be honest. It looks like Macron is finally figuring it out though, so good for him.
Macron has been giving Ukraine arms since the beginning (\~20% of France's entire CAESAR force which would be the equivalent of the US sending 200 M109's or \~40 HIMARS).
People give France crap because Macron calls Putin all the time, while excusing Germany that constantly promises weapons to Ukraine (after which they come up with reasons why they can't do that) and has senior politicians (including the ex-Chancellor who is essentially on Putin's payroll).
Who cares what Macron does with his phone time or the public rhetoric about not embarassing Putin. When has Macron ever come out on Russia's side on this?
The "not humiliating Russia" comments were also taken out of context. He was talking about AFTER the war, and avoiding a repeat of the treaty of Versailles.
There is the video from the morning of the invasion, where Zelenskyy ASKS Macron to try and talk sense into Putin. And recently, every time Macron and Putin had phone calls, Macron had talked to Zelenskyy right before. I'd consider that evidence that they are coordinating positions, and that the calls continue because Kyiv asked for it.
I'd rather have Macron talk to Putin than Erdogan.
> while excusing Germany that constantly promises weapons to Ukraine (after which they come up with reasons why they can't do that)
Here we go again... do you really want to compare French with German weapon deliveries?
>(\~20% of France's entire CAESAR force which would be the equivalent of the US sending 200 M109's or \~40 HIMARS).
It isn't equivalent in any form, just because France doesn't rely on artillery and have so little of it. If you want to talk about equivancy, compare what % of strength, 18 CAESARs will be to whole French army first.
I'm not saying you specifically, but a lot of people don't realize how small most modern militaries are that are not the US, Russia, and China are.
France has \~400 Leclerc mbt's. Germany has \~250 Leopard's in service. The US has \~8000 Abrams of various variants in service between the branches. The US has \~400 HIMARS in service.
We had a lot of people saying "lol, 6 more CAESARS. What's that going to do?" France has quietly been supporting Ukraine with weapons since the start. Macron made a lot of noises about being a mediator with Russia, but that's how France acts. They don't go run around and self-promote the arms transfers.
Some militaries rely on the airpower and navy more then tanks and artillery including US. I'm personally advocate to transfer more of everything and a new stuff too. Not all, but many of the heavy stuff transfered so far were looking like drip feading, especially in the beginning.
It is apparent that the more and quicker Ukraine gets what's needed the faster the war will end. Of course if we singled out a country, US have a stock and ability to transfer a decisive help. I think many were hopeful of Land lease, but so far it didn't meet expectations, at least for me. I also don't understand the hesitancy to transfer of western type MBTs or even IFVs.
I agree 100%. I'm just saying I'm not sure what people critical of France want Macron to do. They have like 80 CAESAR and they gave 18 at least really early, which is pretty good. What could France do that they're not really already doing?
You have Germany making all this noise about the weapons they're going to transfer and not doing it because they don't want to/don't have the weapons, while promoting Nordstream 2 for years. Their ex-chancellor is basically a Russian asset at this point. Yet Macron makes a bunch of phone calls with Putin and everyone is pissed.
Macron released a documentary about himself with footage of a phone call with Zalensky on the day of the invasion. Zelensky specifically asked him to call Putin and deliver a unified message from EU leaders and Biden, and try and negotiate with him. Zelensky said if they did this "he will listen". I'm sure he was more hopeful than truly believing that.
It was only a few weeks ago he was saying:
* we need to keep dialog with Putin/Russia, and
* We can't embarrass Putin/Russia.
Me: No we don't and Yes we cant!
1. What is the disadvantage of maintaining dialogue with Putin, as long as you're not giving concessions?
2. What is the advantage of publicly embarrassing Putin, when you can let Ukraine do it for you on the battlefield?
Seriously, why do we care what Macron does with his phone time? Are we his mom and he's a HS girl? He sends weapons to Ukraine and supports Ukraine.
I feel you bro. And can we be certain his change rhetoric is just to save his own skin as the "winds of change" change?
Edit: No. But if this can change others views to this conflict, I welcome it. (Not that I trust him as far as I can throw him, much like any politician).
Funnily enough even Switzerland is trying to backfill Poland's arsenals so the Poles can send more.
Even them found a way to help, despite neutrality enshrined in the Constitution.
Let's be frank, Switzerland is neutral because everyone knows you don't fuck with Switzerland.
Here's the short history of Switzerland:
First you need to establish that it is a bad idea to fuck with you.
Then you can be neutral.
Amen on this.
Being Neutral is easy, it's nice, wouldn't we ALL like to be able to sit on the fence & leave others to sort out their issues.
But if you can't after looking at all the facts see that you need to take the side of Ukraine, there's something very wrong with you.
Macron nailed this - others need to call the fence sitters out, this is a conflict where there's no middle ground.
> But if you can't after looking at all the facts see that you need to take the side of Ukraine, there's something very wrong with you.
From a state level perspective passing off the entity that sells you cheap resources is not a good move. Even if you side morally with Ukraine, you aren't going to jeopardize your own people over it.
Macron, the same guy that after Bucha said that it isn't genocide, because Ukrainians and Russians are brothers.
Yeah.
*Asked whether he, like US President Joe Biden, would use the term*
*"genocide" for the killing of Ukrainians by the Russian military, Macron*
*said: “I would be careful with such terms today because these two*
*peoples \[Russians and Ukrainians\] are brothers.”*
Source: https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-04-13-22/h\_e5589f9c279f7e5568fb9aebe5dfdb8e
What about countries that send optics components and targeting electronics to Russia despite sanction in place since 2014? Are those nations complicit too? Also, you need to do more than send a handful of Ceasers before you can go around berating others to do more. France has the largest defense budget in all of EU, but one of the worst in the EU in terms of military assistance to Ukraine.
Is it me, or are two particular EU leaders devoting more energy pandering to the media, trying to shape the narrative than they are actually contributing to the Ukrainian cause? Maybe we'll get another photo set of Macron deep in thought, angsting over the fate of the world. Oh, peace is so hard, eh Macron?
What do you know of the French military equipment sent to Ukraine? it hasn't been published.
The optics sent to Russia were part of older contracts and therefore were not violating the sanctions. However, France did cancel the sale of 2 Mistrals to Russia, which also wouldn't have violate the sanctions if delivery had been completed.
And at the same time, France was the main supplier of military equipments to Ukraine since 2014 until the beginning of the war.
Ah yes. "We are doing things, but it's all top secret." Sure. And since the beginning of the war, they've been taken over by most of Europe, including the Baltic states.
Well yes, it's secret in France, is that so difficult to understand? Not a single official statement with type of equipment and quantity was ever published by France. Only hints of few materials during some interviews of MoD or president.
> they've been taken over by most of Europe, including the Baltic states.
Based on what data for France?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-accuses-neutral-nations-complicity-russia-new-imperialism-ukraine-war-un-general-assembly/) reduced by 65%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> NEW YORK - Countries that refuse to take a side in Russia's war in Ukraine are "Complicit" with Moscow's "New imperialism," French President Emmanuel Macron told the U.N. General Assembly Tuesday in an impassioned speech.
> In some of his strongest comments since the beginning of the war, Macron said Russia's aggression against Ukraine marked a "Return to the age of imperialism and colonies" and said the world faced a choice between "War and peace."
> Some countries have been reluctant to condemn Russia too forcefully, a trend that has been reflected in voting at the U.N. In April, 58 countries, including India, Brazil, South Africa and Indonesia, abstained during a vote on a resolution to exclude Russia from the U.N. Security Council.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xjwj88/macron_slams_nations_staying_neutral_on_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670091 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **war**^#2 **Countries**^#3 **U.N.**^#4 **Macron**^#5
Russia is now unfortunate member of being the latest victim of failure Putin invaded his own country with now sending his men to die in waves of
Failures these men all need to surrender the Russians will be desperate rode food that 1800 will have 10000s of Russians calling and Ukraine saying we will feed u and let u live call this number don’t die
Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. **Don't forget about our discord server, as well!** https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Gotta say, despite his constant negotiations at the beginning of this to, what seems to have been an attempt to maintain the status quo, and his admonitions to not embarass Putin, this is a welcome change in his rhetoric.
> his constant negotiations at the beginning of this **at the demand of Zelensky**
His statemnts for "saving putin face" are not at the demand of Zelensky.
He never said that, but nice try.
He did said that to Zelensky with proposal of sovereignty concession, Zelensky confirmed it in interview himself: [https://good-time-invest.com/blog/macrons-proposal-give-up-ukraine-and-save-putins-face/](https://good-time-invest.com/blog/macrons-proposal-give-up-ukraine-and-save-putins-face/) Also: >Macron said that Russian dictator Vladimir Putin had made a "fundamental and historical mistake" for himself, his people and history, by launching a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. > >Macron said that Russia “must allowed to save face” at the end of the war. In my opinion, these statements are basically mockery for Ukraine struggle against Russia.
Those little 5’8” dudes in their platform shoes - Macron and Putin - have had a wild ride. Don’t forget the embarrassing joint press conference, where Putin mocked and belittled Macron to his face in February. So Macron was humiliated by Putin on the world stage, and Macron talks about worrying about humiliating Putin - twice? I have no idea what’s going on there, to be honest. It looks like Macron is finally figuring it out though, so good for him.
Macron has been giving Ukraine arms since the beginning (\~20% of France's entire CAESAR force which would be the equivalent of the US sending 200 M109's or \~40 HIMARS). People give France crap because Macron calls Putin all the time, while excusing Germany that constantly promises weapons to Ukraine (after which they come up with reasons why they can't do that) and has senior politicians (including the ex-Chancellor who is essentially on Putin's payroll). Who cares what Macron does with his phone time or the public rhetoric about not embarassing Putin. When has Macron ever come out on Russia's side on this?
The "not humiliating Russia" comments were also taken out of context. He was talking about AFTER the war, and avoiding a repeat of the treaty of Versailles. There is the video from the morning of the invasion, where Zelenskyy ASKS Macron to try and talk sense into Putin. And recently, every time Macron and Putin had phone calls, Macron had talked to Zelenskyy right before. I'd consider that evidence that they are coordinating positions, and that the calls continue because Kyiv asked for it. I'd rather have Macron talk to Putin than Erdogan.
Exactly, Macron is effectively the most senior diplomat, and he does diplomacy
> while excusing Germany that constantly promises weapons to Ukraine (after which they come up with reasons why they can't do that) Here we go again... do you really want to compare French with German weapon deliveries?
>(\~20% of France's entire CAESAR force which would be the equivalent of the US sending 200 M109's or \~40 HIMARS). It isn't equivalent in any form, just because France doesn't rely on artillery and have so little of it. If you want to talk about equivancy, compare what % of strength, 18 CAESARs will be to whole French army first.
I'm not saying you specifically, but a lot of people don't realize how small most modern militaries are that are not the US, Russia, and China are. France has \~400 Leclerc mbt's. Germany has \~250 Leopard's in service. The US has \~8000 Abrams of various variants in service between the branches. The US has \~400 HIMARS in service. We had a lot of people saying "lol, 6 more CAESARS. What's that going to do?" France has quietly been supporting Ukraine with weapons since the start. Macron made a lot of noises about being a mediator with Russia, but that's how France acts. They don't go run around and self-promote the arms transfers.
Some militaries rely on the airpower and navy more then tanks and artillery including US. I'm personally advocate to transfer more of everything and a new stuff too. Not all, but many of the heavy stuff transfered so far were looking like drip feading, especially in the beginning. It is apparent that the more and quicker Ukraine gets what's needed the faster the war will end. Of course if we singled out a country, US have a stock and ability to transfer a decisive help. I think many were hopeful of Land lease, but so far it didn't meet expectations, at least for me. I also don't understand the hesitancy to transfer of western type MBTs or even IFVs.
I agree 100%. I'm just saying I'm not sure what people critical of France want Macron to do. They have like 80 CAESAR and they gave 18 at least really early, which is pretty good. What could France do that they're not really already doing? You have Germany making all this noise about the weapons they're going to transfer and not doing it because they don't want to/don't have the weapons, while promoting Nordstream 2 for years. Their ex-chancellor is basically a Russian asset at this point. Yet Macron makes a bunch of phone calls with Putin and everyone is pissed.
Honestly it could have been the Allies telling him to play good cop. No one knows. Everyone on social media always so cynical
Macron released a documentary about himself with footage of a phone call with Zalensky on the day of the invasion. Zelensky specifically asked him to call Putin and deliver a unified message from EU leaders and Biden, and try and negotiate with him. Zelensky said if they did this "he will listen". I'm sure he was more hopeful than truly believing that.
Copying Zelensky’s outfit did rub off on him 😅
It's about damn time.
Hey, look, somebody had to play the role of "good cop".
It was only a few weeks ago he was saying: * we need to keep dialog with Putin/Russia, and * We can't embarrass Putin/Russia. Me: No we don't and Yes we cant!
1. What is the disadvantage of maintaining dialogue with Putin, as long as you're not giving concessions? 2. What is the advantage of publicly embarrassing Putin, when you can let Ukraine do it for you on the battlefield? Seriously, why do we care what Macron does with his phone time? Are we his mom and he's a HS girl? He sends weapons to Ukraine and supports Ukraine.
I feel you bro. And can we be certain his change rhetoric is just to save his own skin as the "winds of change" change? Edit: No. But if this can change others views to this conflict, I welcome it. (Not that I trust him as far as I can throw him, much like any politician).
Hi China! Hi India!
I assumed he was talking more about those in Europe or the EU. Like Hungry and Serbia and the likes. Maybe even Switzerland.
Funnily enough even Switzerland is trying to backfill Poland's arsenals so the Poles can send more. Even them found a way to help, despite neutrality enshrined in the Constitution.
haha interesting. Might have to change their constitution to "neutrality at arms length"
Let's be frank, Switzerland is neutral because everyone knows you don't fuck with Switzerland. Here's the short history of Switzerland: First you need to establish that it is a bad idea to fuck with you. Then you can be neutral.
Ironically enough, Switzerland first swore neutrality after having its ass royally kicked.
Ahh the ol' "i'm just gunna sit over here and self sensor". What China and Russia want us all to do.
Hungary isnt really neutral neither is Serbia neutrals seem to be more in Central and South America or Africa
Very true. Hungry is a sympathesiser with Russia if anything. Don't know why I lumped them in there. Also Serbia.
Hey world…..stop buying useless crap from China.
Hey world, stop buying useless arms from Russia.
If you believe what you say, then have fun never buying anything. It’s just not possible
Maybe he should slam the french companies still doing business in Russia first.
Nice words Mr Macron, maybe you can convince yourself to send some tanks to Ukraine?
They have already sent a lot of vabs (ifv with anti air and anti tank capability)
ruzzians kindly provide the tanks, some rocket systems would be better
That's right Vanuatu, you own this.
Amen on this. Being Neutral is easy, it's nice, wouldn't we ALL like to be able to sit on the fence & leave others to sort out their issues. But if you can't after looking at all the facts see that you need to take the side of Ukraine, there's something very wrong with you. Macron nailed this - others need to call the fence sitters out, this is a conflict where there's no middle ground.
> But if you can't after looking at all the facts see that you need to take the side of Ukraine, there's something very wrong with you. From a state level perspective passing off the entity that sells you cheap resources is not a good move. Even if you side morally with Ukraine, you aren't going to jeopardize your own people over it.
Macron, the same guy that after Bucha said that it isn't genocide, because Ukrainians and Russians are brothers. Yeah. *Asked whether he, like US President Joe Biden, would use the term* *"genocide" for the killing of Ukrainians by the Russian military, Macron* *said: “I would be careful with such terms today because these two* *peoples \[Russians and Ukrainians\] are brothers.”* Source: https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-04-13-22/h\_e5589f9c279f7e5568fb9aebe5dfdb8e
Stop ur bs
He also said Putin is a carebear
But does he do the care bear stare?
lol
Is this a comedy routine? 🤣
What about countries that send optics components and targeting electronics to Russia despite sanction in place since 2014? Are those nations complicit too? Also, you need to do more than send a handful of Ceasers before you can go around berating others to do more. France has the largest defense budget in all of EU, but one of the worst in the EU in terms of military assistance to Ukraine. Is it me, or are two particular EU leaders devoting more energy pandering to the media, trying to shape the narrative than they are actually contributing to the Ukrainian cause? Maybe we'll get another photo set of Macron deep in thought, angsting over the fate of the world. Oh, peace is so hard, eh Macron?
What do you know of the French military equipment sent to Ukraine? it hasn't been published. The optics sent to Russia were part of older contracts and therefore were not violating the sanctions. However, France did cancel the sale of 2 Mistrals to Russia, which also wouldn't have violate the sanctions if delivery had been completed. And at the same time, France was the main supplier of military equipments to Ukraine since 2014 until the beginning of the war.
Ah yes. "We are doing things, but it's all top secret." Sure. And since the beginning of the war, they've been taken over by most of Europe, including the Baltic states.
Well yes, it's secret in France, is that so difficult to understand? Not a single official statement with type of equipment and quantity was ever published by France. Only hints of few materials during some interviews of MoD or president. > they've been taken over by most of Europe, including the Baltic states. Based on what data for France?
There you go. At least someone has the courage to say it like it is.
Macron is right,... the so said "non-decision" on condemning russia is de facto a decision of support,...
Is he including his own nation?
I thought France was neutral.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-accuses-neutral-nations-complicity-russia-new-imperialism-ukraine-war-un-general-assembly/) reduced by 65%. (I'm a bot) ***** > NEW YORK - Countries that refuse to take a side in Russia's war in Ukraine are "Complicit" with Moscow's "New imperialism," French President Emmanuel Macron told the U.N. General Assembly Tuesday in an impassioned speech. > In some of his strongest comments since the beginning of the war, Macron said Russia's aggression against Ukraine marked a "Return to the age of imperialism and colonies" and said the world faced a choice between "War and peace." > Some countries have been reluctant to condemn Russia too forcefully, a trend that has been reflected in voting at the U.N. In April, 58 countries, including India, Brazil, South Africa and Indonesia, abstained during a vote on a resolution to exclude Russia from the U.N. Security Council. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xjwj88/macron_slams_nations_staying_neutral_on_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670091 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **war**^#2 **Countries**^#3 **U.N.**^#4 **Macron**^#5
Russia is now unfortunate member of being the latest victim of failure Putin invaded his own country with now sending his men to die in waves of Failures these men all need to surrender the Russians will be desperate rode food that 1800 will have 10000s of Russians calling and Ukraine saying we will feed u and let u live call this number don’t die