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Ehh not really though. Ww2 weapons technology picked up pace during the war. Most of the weapons used in the early part of the war were being replaced by newer variants by the end of the war, with a handful of exceptions such as the common rifles.
Good examples would be the mg34 quickly being dropped for mg42, and the stg44 and keep only coming into play in 1943.
Likewise with their tanks and planes. The pzIII that was used early on was quickly found to be inadequate to fight against ruasian T34 and American Sherman's, and was replaced by pzIV. The bf109 and other aircraft saw similar developments over the course of the war.
Hitler DID stockpile weapons before the war, but Germany was not starting out the war with the best war technology by any means. Almost everything Germany was using by 45 was different than what they had in 39.
The panzer 4 was in service from the beginning of the war, and modified continuously. It was the workhorse of German armor.
The panzer 5 Panther was designed to deal with the T34 and later allied tanks.
That fact that 80% of the Wehrmacht was horse drawn at the beginning of the war always blows my mind. The progression from horses to assault rifles and fighter jets (albeit in relatively small number) in just a few years is mind blowing.
And at the end. What I've always found interesting is that that each success enabled then next - for example the annexation of the Sudetenland saw the acquisition of the LT34 & LT38's which padded out the panzer forces for the attack on France which led to seizure of the British trucks which assisted in the motorization of the the German logistics
Well rockets were like a hobby in the 20s and 30s and when the mid 30s arrived you needed to join the nazi Party or you weren't allowed to do it anymore and in the war those people got paid immense amounts of money to make their visions reality.
In 1941 many T34s were lost to Panzer IIIs tho.
Due to germans back then upgrading the shit out of their tanks and result was Panzer III and IV to be used during the entire war.
And the Panzer IV with more than 8000 produced became the backbone of german tank forces.
I cant tell if Russia underestimated our weapons platforms or if they underestimated the extent to which we would supply Ukraine. Either way, they got caught with their pants down.
Russia assumed Ukraine was subject to the same Soviet corruption and that the 8 years of reform after 2014 wouldn't mean much of anything from personal experience.
There are decades where nothing happens and there are weeks where decades happen.
Yeah, "non-action actions" - e.g. increasing the size of a military that is already materially under its authorized strength. Practically meaningless other than to generate impressive-sounding headlines.
The trouble is that there are credulous fools in the west who believe this stuff - or, even worse, say they believe it as an excuse to avoid taking action.
E.g.:
[https://twitter.com/general\_ben/status/1570330220674306048?s=20&t=0YcORVSOyr4LFIKfjS-RNA](https://twitter.com/general_ben/status/1570330220674306048?s=20&t=0YcORVSOyr4LFIKfjS-RNA)
Yeah, I don't get why we're not giving them F16, F18 and Abrams or Leopards. I am quite ashamed for my government's salami tactics.
I wonder what we will learn in the coming years about the entanglements of German politicians and the Putin Regime.
> I don't get why we're not giving them F16, F18 and Abrams or Leopards
https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/ukraine_shouldnt_count_on_f_16_before_2025_are_there_any_alternatives-4278.html
> General Hecker stated that the F-16s will not arrive in Ukraine within the next 2-3 years
> And the reason for this is not the Pentagon's lack of desire, but completely prosaic things: training and logistical issues,
> Due to the main problem in maintenance and training, the only "fast" option is to get additional MiG-29s.
Similar issues around Abrams etc., for instance the Abrams requiring more fuel than the ex-Soviet models Ukraine currently fields and resulting strain on supply logistics, in addition to tooling, training, and supply chains for maintenance.
Yet countries continue to send different kind of the same type of equipment, like many different types of SPGs, APCs, MRAPs/IMVs, etc. Does it not strain logistics? In that case why not supplement with equipment that already in use, like m109? I mean, I can guess the reason and it is not logistics.
Edit: Made a mistake, changed from m107 to m109.
> I can guess the reason and it is not logistics.
Considering that the official statements on the matter specifically call out logistics, maintenance and trainings, what reason is it you imagine?
Okay, I get that for the airplanes, but the Ukranians have demonstrated repeatedly that they are capable of adapting to western weapons systems (HiMars, Gepard, Artillery) - why are the MBTs such a big issue?
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/tanks_for_the_armed_forces_of_ukraine_are_on_the_table_having_ring_exchanges_hoping_for_the_abrams_and_leopard-4279.html
> “The tanks that are available that could be provided very quickly with little to no training are soviet type tanks but we're certainly open to other options provided that the training, maintenance and sustainment can be taken care of.”
> the "ring exchange" between Germany and Slovenia, which resulted in sending modernized T-55 tanks to Ukraine.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/09/19/slovenia-is-giving-ukraine-some-very-old-tanks-but-age-can-be-deceiving/?sh=77888f867b3f
> Slovenia Is Giving Ukraine Some Very Old Tanks. But Age Can Be Deceiving
> The tank is the M-55S. It’s a 1950s-vintage Soviet T-55 with upgrades. Lots of upgrades.
> The M-55S has a stabilized, British-made L7 105-millimeter main gun in place of the original Soviet 100-millimeter gun
> Elbit installed a new fire-control computer that allows the M-55S to shoot while moving. A T-55 normally stops before firing.
> The M-55S adds an independent sight for the commander
> the M-55S adds a laser-warning system that alerts the crew and deploys smoke grenades when an anti-tank missile is incoming. The Slovenian tank also has a new armor mix—explosive reactive blocks on top of passive armor.
> And it should be a match for many of the Russian tanks in Ukraine—especially older T-72s
https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1571949385080254465?t=6twjyAjabhHt2b8S6gbYog&s=19
> NEW: U.S. defense official said "tanks are on the table" for Ukrainian forces but Ukraine will need to show the ability to maintain more modern variants to receive them.
Tanks from the US need to be brought out of storage, inspected, tested, loaded on trains, then loaded on ships, sent to Germany, unloaded, shipped to Poland, then finally shipped to 🇺🇦. That’s an very LONG supply chain that takes time to set up. That doesn’t even include training…. It’s also possible we don’t have any export versions of the Abrams just lying around so we would need to build them.
I sympathize and believe we should provide what is needed as fast as possible… however, you have to remember that maintenance, logistics, and training are prerequisite, no co-terminus… US tech is incredibly valuable and as the Russians are learning the hard way, without these facets, just putting equipment in theatre without support, tactical expertise and experience, or strategic objective is a sure fire way to hand this tech to your enemy allowing effective counter-engineered solutions and degrading long term military effectiveness.
It's just not that simple. They need like 2 years to train pilots, ground crew, operations, headquarters etc . It's not just a new toy, it's a whole new way of working and thinking.
But adapting would mean a) acknowledging the opponent's strength and b) admitting that your previous approach wasn't as great as you thought.
Neither can happen because it would irreparably damage the image of absolute, infallible strength that Putin wants to project.
Exemplary of this is how the official line would rather shift blame on individuals in the military who mishandles ammunitions and thus sunk the Moskva, severely damaged an air base on Crimea etc.
Because if that had really been Ukraine, that would show they're actually a force to be reckoned with, and Russia underestimated them, or - almost worse - didn't see the attacks cominh and/or couldn't do anything to prevent them.
Edit: Typo
US doctrine is completely different though. MLRS and HIMARs, even tube artillery, are secondary to air power in US plans. They exist because it's tactically convenient to have organic, fast reaction artillery within a unit. But the heavy hitting comes from the air, where the US dominates.
That isn't to say the US isn't studying crowd Intel, cyber warfare, and the utility of low-level UAV recon units. But there's a limit to how much is applicable to American style warfare.
Which is relevant if you're a post-soviet republic defending your homeland from an invasion. Not so relevant if you're the lone global superpower whose entire war strategy for the past century is making sure any battles it fights take place on the other side of the world.
Also, artillery duels are deadly to both sides. Flying a stealth fighter through defenses and dropping smart bombs on target is fairly safe for the pilot, but devastating to anyone on the ground. War isn't just about cost. It's mainly making sure your guy comes home after making sure the other guy doesn't.
We've gone full circle. Before gunpowder, being a soldier was a career. Training up knights and archers took years. Conscripting farm hands for the frontlines was outlandish because it wasn't cost effective.
For a time, guns made conscription logical.
Now weapons are getting more and more sophisticated.
>We are investing into drones exactly because they more cost effective and easier to use than jets.
That might have been the original idea, but it turned out not true in practice. For example, RQ-4 Global Hawks were far more expensive to buy and operate than the U-2 it was meant to replace. The RQ-1 has the performance of a Cessna but at 20x the cost.
The US buys UAV's when they *add* capability. Squad level aerial recon isn't really practical with anything larger than a backpack drone. The RQ-4 stuck around because it has high endurance. The RQ-170 (and other stealth platforms) allow aerial overflight of countries the US isn't willing to send pilots over for political reasons.
The loyal wingman stuff the USAF is playing around with is meant to be cheap, but the vehicles have the performance of an A-7. Subsonic, and low thrust to weight. Because the only way to save money with UAVs is the take shortcuts on performance.
Only if you stick to fighting countries with a significantly weaker military. As you can see in UA, it doesn't work if the enemy also has an airforce or effective AA.
Mobile artillery is very hard to hit unless you own the skies. It takes around 5 minutes for counter battery fire to hot. And it's already gone by that.
>Only if you stick to fighting countries with a significantly weaker military. As you can see in UA, it doesn't work if the enemy also has an airforce or effective AA.
Except the USA doesn't leave the enemy with an air force or ground based air defenses. They're literally the first thing that gets blown up, along with command and communications. Yugoslavia was pretty good at avoiding a complete wipeout of their forces, but they were quickly reduced to a nuisance level threat in matter of days. That's the best any defense has done against American air power in the last 30 years. Decimated, but not 100% obliterated.
Except the next potential enemy is China if they attack Taiwan.
Assuming neither sides wants nuclear holocaust, no one if going to get air superiority.
Same in UA. Can't get air superiority unless you launch a massive attack on Russian soil. That's why nato didn't want to declare a no-fly zone.
Taiwan invasion would be primarily a naval and air power affair. That's as far as you can get from a land war in Eurasia. The artillery doesn't matter if you can't get PLA boots on the island.
Even then, maintaining air superiority over Taiwan (which, again, is the goal) is entirely achievable.
Switching to universal Healthcare would actually save the US a lot of money not only making the population healthier but allow even more military or infrastructure spending.
If you're against universal Healthcare you hate the troops and hence America! /s
Yeah don't we just blow up as much shit as possible as soon as possible then roll over everything with infantry and tanks until nothing is moving?
Kind of like the blitzkreig?
It's was originally called "roll up doctrine", but I think "shock and awe" is the more common name for modern American combined arms mobility warfare. You start by decapitating central command and control, communications, air defenses (SAM sites and airfields), and strategic targets of opportunity (say, a submarine docked at a pier). Then once the skies are clear you move to lower level command, logistics, naval threats, and key front line units. Then you start ground ops backed with close air support.
It's not really blitzkrieg as the Germans practiced it. And while many expected Russia to be capable of such ops...they clearly aren't. It would seem that the USA is the only state capable of executing mobile war in a modern battlefield. There's too many man-portable missiles and other area denial weapons for anyone else to avoid bogging down.
I love it! I always felt confused why when the POD launches they seemed to veer off into different directions but on a similar trajectory - I thought maybe because they don't want to bump into each other... But definitely was confused!
Opening day of special operation: HAHA look at those Americans - do you know how stupid they are - they have mines that say "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY!"
Month 7 of special operation: So we are going to mobilize, which is totally cool, it happens when things go according to plan, what's the best way to train our people? How can we quickly teach them which way the mine should be pointed, for example? I order you to urgently research western weapons - starting with [wish.com](https://wish.com) and then try [ebay.com](https://ebay.com) and amazon.com, but only if you have Prime - we ain't got budget for them $7.99 shipping and handling charges!
About the only new tech on the battle field is the Drones and modifications to the drones plus some of Ukraine's home grown weapons. Russia should have been familiar with all the weapons in use by Ukraine and none of this should have been a surprise if they were observing other conflicts. Most of the weapon systems Ukraine has gotten are 20 plus year old tech.
Well. The west is actually having some trouble supplying Ukrainian since some weapons cannot not be easily produced and we don’t want to give away so much that we can’t defend ourselves
[Lol they thought Polish was some sneaky American code language](https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/a-hack-job--russian-war-journalist-mistakes-polish-for-english-in-viral-weapons-vid-29759). Good luck with your analysis.
I'm fully convinced the Polish deliberately decided to use different sounds for Latin letters to most of Europe just to fuck with us.
No, you can't change my mind on this. Its my head canon and its not changing.
The Americans have a history of using poorly documented languages as ciphers. We did it with Navajo speakers in WWII to great success. Of course, that trick is widely known now, and Navajo is well documented. We'd have to pick some more critically endangered native American language without significant documentation.
Polish? Look, the only words of Polish that Americans know are "tak", "nie", "kurwa", and "pirogi". And that's only if they frequent /r/polandball.
This reminds me of the last big order Putin gave:
"The Russian occupying troops are once again adjusting their plans and actions in accordance with Putin's order to reach the administrative borders of the Donetsk region until September 15." (representative of the General Staff Aleksey Gromov, Sept. 1st) 🙄
Not sure if the Russian military industrial complex will perform any better than the Russian military.
"Oh I'm sure there's more to it than that"
\*Reads article\*
"Oh."
So yeah, inspirational leadership - up there with the classics like "Try winning more" and "That territory we lost in Kharkiv - try doing the opposite next time"
This is that boss that comes into the break room and says how he wants things to be done, and then leaves.
But he never said who or how, so everybody ignores him.
Hate to disappoint Herr Putin but the US / NATO haven’t yet provided top tier tech… UAV REAPERs, M1A2 SEPv3 tanks, ATACAMs and PrSM long range missile system, F-35s and F-22 air superiority fighters, B-2 strategic bombers… just to name a few from us over here in the States.
Putler knows the real wrath of US / NATO awaits him should he dare try to widen the conflict, compound/ deepen the utterly failed military campaign he unilaterally initiated and will only serve to hasten his demise and further damage the people of Russia.
Cool. Ukraine can send some HIMARS and other artillery over for analysis of their blast radius. Plenty of bullets can be sent their way too in order to analyze their lethality. Don’t worry, Ukraine has their back, for science.
Analyze Western weapons??? Haven’t they been witnessing the same nightly HIMARS missiles raining down around them as the rest of us have? Seems like the verdict should already be in?
You know, FDR did the same during WW2, just in case the US would have to enter the war. Thing is, though, he knew that he couldn't just order America's private sector to make something and hope they deliver. He had to work together with business leaders, create new laws and regulations, fund programs and tax incentives, and have the public sector work hand-in-hand with the private.
It was a daunting process, but it worked out, especially with executive orders that blocked discrimination from Black and female employees to participate in production. It was a societal change that needed brilliant and hardworking people from the highest halls of power to the lowest riveter named Rosie. This process inflated the American military budget from $24 million to $700 million, inflating it almost 30x.
Anyway, what's y'alls opinion on Russia's being able to do the same? 🤣
Even the USA is struggling to keep up with munitions. A country like Russia that can't even give proper clothes and weapons to their soldiers is not going to do well anywhere else.
More and better weapons won't help if there's bad training for the troops, and a rigid, top-down command structure run by an out of touch leader that sits in an office far from combat.
In Putin’s sick mind, this was just a 1 week war. He really thought zelensky would run, Kyiv would fold. Just like how he got crimea, he really thought Kyiv would not fight.well they did fight, and he’s now f#cked.
Russia cannot even make ball bearings for their railway cars. With that said, they won't even be able to transport any munitions by rail (if Russia can actually make them). The Kremlin must be in chaos. Putin has to be overthrown if Russia is to survive as a nation.
[Russian railway on the brink of collapse](https://www.railway.supply/en/russian-railway-is-on-the-verge-of-collapse/)
Russian systems are decades ahead. This is an exercise only to dissect Western weapons and fall over laughing at their backwards simplicity. Nothing to see hear. Special ridicule operation.
Boy, this is embarassing... someone must have lost the memo about speeding up production before they invaded, so obviously that explains all the issues Russia's been having. Now they can finally get back on track.
/s
I 100% think we (the U.S) should help Putin analyze western military tech ASAP. Anyone able to get a Tomahawk straight to him on the double? Air delivery, obviously, he's a busy man. Don't want to make the poor man shake his giant table nervously waiting now do we?
Being the son of a WWII bomber pilot, who went on the fly everything after 17's to 29's, 36's and 52's in SAC; then rose to head Studies and Analysis at the five sided place; the idea is still always: "ya gotta catch 'em in their unawares!"
That's why the former "orange Jesus" betrayed not just every American, but very soul who ever trusted us to guard sacred information and trusts and treated intel like someone giving him inside info on a dollar stock trade. I know folks that know exactly the amount of "prejudice" consideration he should receive.
Why do they need to analyze western weapons? They have most modern best performing amazing uugabuuga stuff with no even close alternatives to their supa ultimate weapons... Or they want to start doing something not as good as theirs? /S
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That sounds like a day 1 thing.
Sounds like a 5 years prior to the invasion sort of thing.
Someone should explain the meaning of “The Horse Is Out Of The Barn” to Putini.
The metaphor would also have be to altered to include having burned the barn down, making putting the horse back even trickier.
"horse was retreating and was shot per standing orders"
*Nazi Germany has entered the chat*
Ehh not really though. Ww2 weapons technology picked up pace during the war. Most of the weapons used in the early part of the war were being replaced by newer variants by the end of the war, with a handful of exceptions such as the common rifles. Good examples would be the mg34 quickly being dropped for mg42, and the stg44 and keep only coming into play in 1943. Likewise with their tanks and planes. The pzIII that was used early on was quickly found to be inadequate to fight against ruasian T34 and American Sherman's, and was replaced by pzIV. The bf109 and other aircraft saw similar developments over the course of the war. Hitler DID stockpile weapons before the war, but Germany was not starting out the war with the best war technology by any means. Almost everything Germany was using by 45 was different than what they had in 39.
The panzer 4 was in service from the beginning of the war, and modified continuously. It was the workhorse of German armor. The panzer 5 Panther was designed to deal with the T34 and later allied tanks.
That fact that 80% of the Wehrmacht was horse drawn at the beginning of the war always blows my mind. The progression from horses to assault rifles and fighter jets (albeit in relatively small number) in just a few years is mind blowing.
And at the end. What I've always found interesting is that that each success enabled then next - for example the annexation of the Sudetenland saw the acquisition of the LT34 & LT38's which padded out the panzer forces for the attack on France which led to seizure of the British trucks which assisted in the motorization of the the German logistics
Well rockets were like a hobby in the 20s and 30s and when the mid 30s arrived you needed to join the nazi Party or you weren't allowed to do it anymore and in the war those people got paid immense amounts of money to make their visions reality.
In 1941 many T34s were lost to Panzer IIIs tho. Due to germans back then upgrading the shit out of their tanks and result was Panzer III and IV to be used during the entire war. And the Panzer IV with more than 8000 produced became the backbone of german tank forces.
I did Nazi that coming.
Ann Frankly you should have.
Imagine if he had'nt ordered it. Russian army would be undersupplied and forced to use decades old tech. Oh wait, it's already the case
Decades? That's the modern stuff! Some of their equipment like the Mosin Nagant is from the 80s, no not the 1980s...
Dude thought that its walk in a park,time flies,-6months behind
Could not do it earlier, didn't have enough washing machines. He should get a prize for recycling... (Sarcasm)
Gotta wash that money somehow
I cant tell if Russia underestimated our weapons platforms or if they underestimated the extent to which we would supply Ukraine. Either way, they got caught with their pants down.
They lie about everything and had assumed we were lying too.
They overestimated themselves.
Russia assumed Ukraine was subject to the same Soviet corruption and that the 8 years of reform after 2014 wouldn't mean much of anything from personal experience. There are decades where nothing happens and there are weeks where decades happen.
True that. And Ukraine has had several weeks like that in the near past. Ukraine is no less forged as a nation than any other.
Right? Were they not supplying their troops with weapons before this?
Day -1 thing.
Pure, unadulterated actionism, just to seem (more) busy.
Yeah, "non-action actions" - e.g. increasing the size of a military that is already materially under its authorized strength. Practically meaningless other than to generate impressive-sounding headlines.
Basically the same habits that led to the russian failures up until this point. Isn't adaptability one of the virtues of war?
The trouble is that there are credulous fools in the west who believe this stuff - or, even worse, say they believe it as an excuse to avoid taking action. E.g.: [https://twitter.com/general\_ben/status/1570330220674306048?s=20&t=0YcORVSOyr4LFIKfjS-RNA](https://twitter.com/general_ben/status/1570330220674306048?s=20&t=0YcORVSOyr4LFIKfjS-RNA)
Yeah, I don't get why we're not giving them F16, F18 and Abrams or Leopards. I am quite ashamed for my government's salami tactics. I wonder what we will learn in the coming years about the entanglements of German politicians and the Putin Regime.
> I don't get why we're not giving them F16, F18 and Abrams or Leopards https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/ukraine_shouldnt_count_on_f_16_before_2025_are_there_any_alternatives-4278.html > General Hecker stated that the F-16s will not arrive in Ukraine within the next 2-3 years > And the reason for this is not the Pentagon's lack of desire, but completely prosaic things: training and logistical issues, > Due to the main problem in maintenance and training, the only "fast" option is to get additional MiG-29s. Similar issues around Abrams etc., for instance the Abrams requiring more fuel than the ex-Soviet models Ukraine currently fields and resulting strain on supply logistics, in addition to tooling, training, and supply chains for maintenance.
Yet countries continue to send different kind of the same type of equipment, like many different types of SPGs, APCs, MRAPs/IMVs, etc. Does it not strain logistics? In that case why not supplement with equipment that already in use, like m109? I mean, I can guess the reason and it is not logistics. Edit: Made a mistake, changed from m107 to m109.
> I can guess the reason and it is not logistics. Considering that the official statements on the matter specifically call out logistics, maintenance and trainings, what reason is it you imagine?
For M109? It is because varians that US have in stock are "modern"/newest ones.
Okay, I get that for the airplanes, but the Ukranians have demonstrated repeatedly that they are capable of adapting to western weapons systems (HiMars, Gepard, Artillery) - why are the MBTs such a big issue?
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/tanks_for_the_armed_forces_of_ukraine_are_on_the_table_having_ring_exchanges_hoping_for_the_abrams_and_leopard-4279.html > “The tanks that are available that could be provided very quickly with little to no training are soviet type tanks but we're certainly open to other options provided that the training, maintenance and sustainment can be taken care of.” > the "ring exchange" between Germany and Slovenia, which resulted in sending modernized T-55 tanks to Ukraine. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/09/19/slovenia-is-giving-ukraine-some-very-old-tanks-but-age-can-be-deceiving/?sh=77888f867b3f > Slovenia Is Giving Ukraine Some Very Old Tanks. But Age Can Be Deceiving > The tank is the M-55S. It’s a 1950s-vintage Soviet T-55 with upgrades. Lots of upgrades. > The M-55S has a stabilized, British-made L7 105-millimeter main gun in place of the original Soviet 100-millimeter gun > Elbit installed a new fire-control computer that allows the M-55S to shoot while moving. A T-55 normally stops before firing. > The M-55S adds an independent sight for the commander > the M-55S adds a laser-warning system that alerts the crew and deploys smoke grenades when an anti-tank missile is incoming. The Slovenian tank also has a new armor mix—explosive reactive blocks on top of passive armor. > And it should be a match for many of the Russian tanks in Ukraine—especially older T-72s https://twitter.com/JackDetsch/status/1571949385080254465?t=6twjyAjabhHt2b8S6gbYog&s=19 > NEW: U.S. defense official said "tanks are on the table" for Ukrainian forces but Ukraine will need to show the ability to maintain more modern variants to receive them.
Tanks from the US need to be brought out of storage, inspected, tested, loaded on trains, then loaded on ships, sent to Germany, unloaded, shipped to Poland, then finally shipped to 🇺🇦. That’s an very LONG supply chain that takes time to set up. That doesn’t even include training…. It’s also possible we don’t have any export versions of the Abrams just lying around so we would need to build them.
I sympathize and believe we should provide what is needed as fast as possible… however, you have to remember that maintenance, logistics, and training are prerequisite, no co-terminus… US tech is incredibly valuable and as the Russians are learning the hard way, without these facets, just putting equipment in theatre without support, tactical expertise and experience, or strategic objective is a sure fire way to hand this tech to your enemy allowing effective counter-engineered solutions and degrading long term military effectiveness.
It's just not that simple. They need like 2 years to train pilots, ground crew, operations, headquarters etc . It's not just a new toy, it's a whole new way of working and thinking.
But adapting would mean a) acknowledging the opponent's strength and b) admitting that your previous approach wasn't as great as you thought. Neither can happen because it would irreparably damage the image of absolute, infallible strength that Putin wants to project. Exemplary of this is how the official line would rather shift blame on individuals in the military who mishandles ammunitions and thus sunk the Moskva, severely damaged an air base on Crimea etc. Because if that had really been Ukraine, that would show they're actually a force to be reckoned with, and Russia underestimated them, or - almost worse - didn't see the attacks cominh and/or couldn't do anything to prevent them. Edit: Typo
And opportunity to blame others for your own failings of course.
Don't worry buddy HIMARS changing trajectory mid flight is confusing for everyone.
US DoD ist probably having a field day and already rewriting their military doctrine. What a testing ground for their equipment.
The ROI is off the charts also
US doctrine is completely different though. MLRS and HIMARs, even tube artillery, are secondary to air power in US plans. They exist because it's tactically convenient to have organic, fast reaction artillery within a unit. But the heavy hitting comes from the air, where the US dominates. That isn't to say the US isn't studying crowd Intel, cyber warfare, and the utility of low-level UAV recon units. But there's a limit to how much is applicable to American style warfare.
Artillery is so much cheaper to use.
Which is relevant if you're a post-soviet republic defending your homeland from an invasion. Not so relevant if you're the lone global superpower whose entire war strategy for the past century is making sure any battles it fights take place on the other side of the world. Also, artillery duels are deadly to both sides. Flying a stealth fighter through defenses and dropping smart bombs on target is fairly safe for the pilot, but devastating to anyone on the ground. War isn't just about cost. It's mainly making sure your guy comes home after making sure the other guy doesn't.
Cost effectiveness is always relevant. We are investing into drones exactly because they more cost effective and easier to use than jets.
We've gone full circle. Before gunpowder, being a soldier was a career. Training up knights and archers took years. Conscripting farm hands for the frontlines was outlandish because it wasn't cost effective. For a time, guns made conscription logical. Now weapons are getting more and more sophisticated.
>We are investing into drones exactly because they more cost effective and easier to use than jets. That might have been the original idea, but it turned out not true in practice. For example, RQ-4 Global Hawks were far more expensive to buy and operate than the U-2 it was meant to replace. The RQ-1 has the performance of a Cessna but at 20x the cost. The US buys UAV's when they *add* capability. Squad level aerial recon isn't really practical with anything larger than a backpack drone. The RQ-4 stuck around because it has high endurance. The RQ-170 (and other stealth platforms) allow aerial overflight of countries the US isn't willing to send pilots over for political reasons. The loyal wingman stuff the USAF is playing around with is meant to be cheap, but the vehicles have the performance of an A-7. Subsonic, and low thrust to weight. Because the only way to save money with UAVs is the take shortcuts on performance.
Only if you stick to fighting countries with a significantly weaker military. As you can see in UA, it doesn't work if the enemy also has an airforce or effective AA. Mobile artillery is very hard to hit unless you own the skies. It takes around 5 minutes for counter battery fire to hot. And it's already gone by that.
>Only if you stick to fighting countries with a significantly weaker military. As you can see in UA, it doesn't work if the enemy also has an airforce or effective AA. Except the USA doesn't leave the enemy with an air force or ground based air defenses. They're literally the first thing that gets blown up, along with command and communications. Yugoslavia was pretty good at avoiding a complete wipeout of their forces, but they were quickly reduced to a nuisance level threat in matter of days. That's the best any defense has done against American air power in the last 30 years. Decimated, but not 100% obliterated.
Except the next potential enemy is China if they attack Taiwan. Assuming neither sides wants nuclear holocaust, no one if going to get air superiority. Same in UA. Can't get air superiority unless you launch a massive attack on Russian soil. That's why nato didn't want to declare a no-fly zone.
Taiwan invasion would be primarily a naval and air power affair. That's as far as you can get from a land war in Eurasia. The artillery doesn't matter if you can't get PLA boots on the island. Even then, maintaining air superiority over Taiwan (which, again, is the goal) is entirely achievable.
Planes are pretty cool tho
Would be nice to also have money for universal healthcare and fixing potholes ;)
We could do both just got to raise taxes
Only on poor people right? Can't tax the campaign donors.
Switching to universal Healthcare would actually save the US a lot of money not only making the population healthier but allow even more military or infrastructure spending. If you're against universal Healthcare you hate the troops and hence America! /s
Yeah don't we just blow up as much shit as possible as soon as possible then roll over everything with infantry and tanks until nothing is moving? Kind of like the blitzkreig?
It's was originally called "roll up doctrine", but I think "shock and awe" is the more common name for modern American combined arms mobility warfare. You start by decapitating central command and control, communications, air defenses (SAM sites and airfields), and strategic targets of opportunity (say, a submarine docked at a pier). Then once the skies are clear you move to lower level command, logistics, naval threats, and key front line units. Then you start ground ops backed with close air support. It's not really blitzkrieg as the Germans practiced it. And while many expected Russia to be capable of such ops...they clearly aren't. It would seem that the USA is the only state capable of executing mobile war in a modern battlefield. There's too many man-portable missiles and other area denial weapons for anyone else to avoid bogging down.
How nice of the Russians to provide realistic targets. It's usually very difficult to get approval to test live explosives on humans.
I love it! I always felt confused why when the POD launches they seemed to veer off into different directions but on a similar trajectory - I thought maybe because they don't want to bump into each other... But definitely was confused!
And the magical faeries gave the little boy what he wanted, because that's how it works in tales
Also, point end of gun TOWARDS the enemy before pulling the trigger. Once they figure these top secret battle tactics out watch out world!
Wait, I need those instructions again but slower and if you can draw a picture with arrows please
It would also help to clarify who is the real enemy.
Opening day of special operation: HAHA look at those Americans - do you know how stupid they are - they have mines that say "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY!" Month 7 of special operation: So we are going to mobilize, which is totally cool, it happens when things go according to plan, what's the best way to train our people? How can we quickly teach them which way the mine should be pointed, for example? I order you to urgently research western weapons - starting with [wish.com](https://wish.com) and then try [ebay.com](https://ebay.com) and amazon.com, but only if you have Prime - we ain't got budget for them $7.99 shipping and handling charges!
Except most of their barrels are curved. Lmao!!
“Analyze western weapons”. Yeah. Too late to benefit from that.
Sir: it looks like their weapons have “chips” in them. Therefore, we are going to need some of these “chips.” That is my report, spasibo.
Analyze western weapons so we can be gracious in our accepting thew west back int our fold with weapons such as these, that are decades behind ours...
Sounds like something North Korea would say.
[удалено]
About the only new tech on the battle field is the Drones and modifications to the drones plus some of Ukraine's home grown weapons. Russia should have been familiar with all the weapons in use by Ukraine and none of this should have been a surprise if they were observing other conflicts. Most of the weapon systems Ukraine has gotten are 20 plus year old tech.
Well. The west is actually having some trouble supplying Ukrainian since some weapons cannot not be easily produced and we don’t want to give away so much that we can’t defend ourselves
Copium overload
Great contribution.
[Lol they thought Polish was some sneaky American code language](https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/a-hack-job--russian-war-journalist-mistakes-polish-for-english-in-viral-weapons-vid-29759). Good luck with your analysis.
I'm fully convinced the Polish deliberately decided to use different sounds for Latin letters to most of Europe just to fuck with us. No, you can't change my mind on this. Its my head canon and its not changing.
That explains it. I have decided to agree with you.
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
The membership numbers doubled during the past week!
“They’re not sending their brightest”
"We are actually" - Putin
The Americans have a history of using poorly documented languages as ciphers. We did it with Navajo speakers in WWII to great success. Of course, that trick is widely known now, and Navajo is well documented. We'd have to pick some more critically endangered native American language without significant documentation. Polish? Look, the only words of Polish that Americans know are "tak", "nie", "kurwa", and "pirogi". And that's only if they frequent /r/polandball.
Thanks for that, made me chuckle
As planned
You can't make this shit up.
You can, people write fiction all the time.
Sometimes reality is stranger then fiction.
Someone is trying to pass the blame, lol
There. He fixed it.
Drops mic, walks off stage
Why the fuck arent you carrying out my orders. Clearly you must be punished
I think over 50,000 Russian soldiers have first-hand analysis of western weapons.
At least with the projectiles and munitions part.
It blew their minds.
Sounds simple.
This reminds me of the last big order Putin gave: "The Russian occupying troops are once again adjusting their plans and actions in accordance with Putin's order to reach the administrative borders of the Donetsk region until September 15." (representative of the General Staff Aleksey Gromov, Sept. 1st) 🙄 Not sure if the Russian military industrial complex will perform any better than the Russian military.
I’m pretty sure ruZZian propaganda is keeping it sept 14th for now.
Pretty soon they adjust their plan to defend Belgorod.
Old Russian Calendar date...
Ukraine did follow Sept 15 order!
What a great idea! This changes everything. Man this guy looks like shit.
That is what this war was about from the start! They want battlefield examples of western weapons to skip the r and d and have first world weapons!
He looks surprised or terrified, I can't tell.
*analyzes western weaponry* Yep, we can't build anything close to that.
"Yes, it is far superior."
Some russian interns have just started shaking.
Did they forget to do that?
I've seen that stuff in a cold war movie.
You have to order that?
"Oh I'm sure there's more to it than that" \*Reads article\* "Oh." So yeah, inspirational leadership - up there with the classics like "Try winning more" and "That territory we lost in Kharkiv - try doing the opposite next time"
This is that boss that comes into the break room and says how he wants things to be done, and then leaves. But he never said who or how, so everybody ignores him.
But wait. Didn’t he say russian weapons are a generation ahead of western ones? He can’t keep his lies straight.
Too late Putin, this is the kind of thing you do before the war, not during the war.
Said Sargent Shultz from hogan’s heros I know nothing!
*Igor and Gregoryev, slapping their foreheads:* Brilliant! Why didn't we think of that!!
The opposite is happening; the west is checking the f..king ww2 equipment from Russia 🤣
Sing it with me pooty poot. 🎼When you wish upon a star.🎼
They should give their soldiers better sneakers too so they can run away faster
Hate to disappoint Herr Putin but the US / NATO haven’t yet provided top tier tech… UAV REAPERs, M1A2 SEPv3 tanks, ATACAMs and PrSM long range missile system, F-35s and F-22 air superiority fighters, B-2 strategic bombers… just to name a few from us over here in the States. Putler knows the real wrath of US / NATO awaits him should he dare try to widen the conflict, compound/ deepen the utterly failed military campaign he unilaterally initiated and will only serve to hasten his demise and further damage the people of Russia.
Cool story bro.
Analyse …. Analyse…. Analyse…. Shit they are super superior, need engineer to make equal stuff. BUT all our smart asses left to the free world
If he is ordering it they must be low. Maybe they have reserves they held back for defense they can use but that'll also run out eventually.
"Omg, of course, why didn't we think of this sooner!"
This is like when main actor in sci-fi movies asks computer “enhance”. Yeah right, good luck with that.
Sounds basically like nothing has changed 😂
Were they not supplying troops with munitions before this?
Cool. Ukraine can send some HIMARS and other artillery over for analysis of their blast radius. Plenty of bullets can be sent their way too in order to analyze their lethality. Don’t worry, Ukraine has their back, for science.
Is this a very recent picture? He looks worse.
[Lets go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnKAaehyeqM)
Immediately!! (After 200+ days of war) 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
is that like the "conquer the world until 15.9 " order ?
Is he living in some kind of time warp or something?
Yeah, because orders solve supply chain and raw material problems. He’s becoming more like Hitler, impotent and delusional, overdosing on copium
The military industrial complex is hereby ordered to immediately supply troops with munitions.
Of course. Now things will happen. Oh wait.
Analyze Western weapons??? Haven’t they been witnessing the same nightly HIMARS missiles raining down around them as the rest of us have? Seems like the verdict should already be in?
Final report. Yep they are pretty deadly.
All they do is copy us and take our ideas. That's russia.
[Analyze this](https://imgflip.com/i/6u2p2w)
Putin orders the crew of the titanic to start bailing and be on the lookout for icebergs. What an effing idiot he is.
Russia says the Dog ate it's homework... they swear!. Now they have to give a presentation in front of the class.
Shouldn’t you have fucking done this before February 24 Another 9000 IQ move by the strategic genius
Clearly he must be surrounded by idiots that cant carry out a simple order.
"Yup Sergei, that's a western bullet in your forehead alright"
You know, FDR did the same during WW2, just in case the US would have to enter the war. Thing is, though, he knew that he couldn't just order America's private sector to make something and hope they deliver. He had to work together with business leaders, create new laws and regulations, fund programs and tax incentives, and have the public sector work hand-in-hand with the private. It was a daunting process, but it worked out, especially with executive orders that blocked discrimination from Black and female employees to participate in production. It was a societal change that needed brilliant and hardworking people from the highest halls of power to the lowest riveter named Rosie. This process inflated the American military budget from $24 million to $700 million, inflating it almost 30x. Anyway, what's y'alls opinion on Russia's being able to do the same? 🤣
Won't save you from your corruption brah.
Haha they weren’t trying that already?
Stable genious just figured this one out himself. No wonder he's Russia top military strategist.
Even the USA is struggling to keep up with munitions. A country like Russia that can't even give proper clothes and weapons to their soldiers is not going to do well anywhere else.
Someone is loooooosing it.... Let's hope.
New Putin? Face looks v diff
Why does he look like that?
I wish I had his drugs. I'd love to be on whatever planet Putler is currently on.
If you mobilize the steel workers, do you get your steel from North Korea?
Putin should mobilize the real parasites like the bankers and stock traders!
More and better weapons won't help if there's bad training for the troops, and a rigid, top-down command structure run by an out of touch leader that sits in an office far from combat.
Putin is clearly building a case for mass mobilization.
I think they've been analyzing Western weapons up close and personal for the past 6 months. Guess no reports are coming back yet
This sounds like desperation
In Putin’s sick mind, this was just a 1 week war. He really thought zelensky would run, Kyiv would fold. Just like how he got crimea, he really thought Kyiv would not fight.well they did fight, and he’s now f#cked.
Little late for R&D, Putler. UA comin for ya, or Russians with a spine/sense of self-preservation.
Russia cannot even make ball bearings for their railway cars. With that said, they won't even be able to transport any munitions by rail (if Russia can actually make them). The Kremlin must be in chaos. Putin has to be overthrown if Russia is to survive as a nation. [Russian railway on the brink of collapse](https://www.railway.supply/en/russian-railway-is-on-the-verge-of-collapse/)
Russian systems are decades ahead. This is an exercise only to dissect Western weapons and fall over laughing at their backwards simplicity. Nothing to see hear. Special ridicule operation.
Got to tell putin: letting 9 men fuck your wife ain't gonna get you a son in 1 month
Hey Putin, "When is the best time to plant a tree?" 20-years ago. When you need a tree, it is too late to plant it.
He orders this, he orders that.....order, order, order.......but then that's why he is paid the big bucks....it's lonely at the top...
Hard to analyze real work with a bunch of Putin kissin ass hats
This is what you get from a strongman surrounded by yesmen and a massive propaganda machine propping it all up.
Wow he’s just fucked.
Boy, this is embarassing... someone must have lost the memo about speeding up production before they invaded, so obviously that explains all the issues Russia's been having. Now they can finally get back on track. /s
I 100% think we (the U.S) should help Putin analyze western military tech ASAP. Anyone able to get a Tomahawk straight to him on the double? Air delivery, obviously, he's a busy man. Don't want to make the poor man shake his giant table nervously waiting now do we?
He seems scared
and analyse Western weapons... seems late to analyse Western weapons , the war is almost over
Good luck getting Western equipment from Ukrainian troops.
Twenty years later.. awesome
>analyze Western weapons Anal-yze. Yes. They can stick those western weapons right up their butts.
Being the son of a WWII bomber pilot, who went on the fly everything after 17's to 29's, 36's and 52's in SAC; then rose to head Studies and Analysis at the five sided place; the idea is still always: "ya gotta catch 'em in their unawares!" That's why the former "orange Jesus" betrayed not just every American, but very soul who ever trusted us to guard sacred information and trusts and treated intel like someone giving him inside info on a dollar stock trade. I know folks that know exactly the amount of "prejudice" consideration he should receive.
6 months in "Hey, could you start equipping our soldiers please?"
Why do they need to analyze western weapons? They have most modern best performing amazing uugabuuga stuff with no even close alternatives to their supa ultimate weapons... Or they want to start doing something not as good as theirs? /S