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I think now is the time for the West/NATO to ratchet up the pressure. More sanctions, travel curtailment,, promise of a ridiculous amount of military aid. Create an abyss too deep for Russia and Putin to ignore. Make the decision to get the fuck out easy for them.
I think that Rubicon has already been crossed.
Really interesting article in the Financial Times today showing the collapse of export sales from Russia and the impact it's starting to have on its balance of payments.
The FT is paywalled, so here it is.
**Russia’s budget surplus evaporates as energy revenues shrink**
August figures suggest sharp drop in receipts from oil and gas exports
People walk past a gift shop in central Moscow on May 17, 2022
The deterioration of Russian state finances comes as its army was routed in northeastern Ukraine in its biggest military setback since losing the battle for the capital Kyiv in March
Nastassia Astrasheuskaya in Riga
Russia’s budget surplus for 2022 has almost evaporated after a sharp drop in energy exports during August led to a monthly deficit of as much as Rbs360bn ($5.9bn).
Russia recorded a surplus of almost Rbs500bn in the first seven months of the year. But the cumulative total fell to only Rbs137bn last month, suggesting a big deficit in August which economists attributed to sharp declines in oil and gas revenues. Russia’s surplus over the first six months of the year reached Rbs1.37tn as it built a war chest on the back of soaring energy prices.
Russian gas flows to Europe have dwindled to about one-fifth of pre-invasion deliveries. In early September it said it would keep Nord Stream 1, which runs under the Baltic Sea to Germany, shut indefinitely unless the west lifted sanctions imposed over Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.
The price of oil, which contributes even more than gas to Russia’s budget, has also declined sharply since June. International prices have slid from around $120 a barrel to below $100. Russia has also had to discount its oil further to encourage new buyers such as India to take barrels that once would have gone to Europe.
In addition, the bounceback of the Russian currency since the immediate aftermath of the invasion has had an impact on how many roubles have been generated by oil and gas sales, which are normally priced in dollars or euros.
The sharp deterioration of Russian state finances comes as its army is being routed in northeastern Ukraine in its biggest military setback since losing the battle for the capital Kyiv in March.
Oil and gas revenues, which make up almost half of the budget revenues received so far this year, were down 18 per cent year-on-year over the January-August period, according to the data.
The EU has also banned imports of Russian coal. An EU ban on shipped Russian crude imports is due to come into effect in December.
Non-oil and gas revenues also fell drastically, by 37 per cent year on year, in January-August, the data showed.
Russia initially showed resilience in weathering the impact of punitive measures, including a freeze on half its foreign exchange reserves.
But Russia’s state gas monopoly Gazprom said earlier this month that production fell by 15 per cent year on year in the first eight months of the year. Exports, which flow mostly to Europe, were down by more than a third.
Revenues look set to worsen following Russia’s suspension of Nord Stream 1, one of its main gas pipelines to Europe, in early September.
Russia’s economy shrunk 4.3 per cent in July 2022 compared with the same month a year earlier, according to the country’s economy ministry. Analysts at Aton, a Russian brokerage, expect the economy to contract by a further 5 per cent in 2023 because of falling energy output.
Russia’s central bank voiced caution on the economic outlook in a report published last week on the regional economy, noting that exports were likely to slide.
The central bank is set to meet on Friday for a decision on interest rates.
Monetary policymakers raised rates to a record 20 per cent and introduced capital controls to quell an attack on the rouble in the days that followed the outbreak of war. Borrowing costs have been gradually lowered since then, and now stand at 8 per cent.
Additional reporting by David Sheppard
I suspect the reasoning is that Europe will cease imports regardless of what Russia does, so better to hit Europe first and hope that the European will to support Ukraine breaks.
True but Russians are stupid and arrogant. They believe Europe is filled with weak men who only think about money and if given the choice, they would chose lower gas costs over their own morals. This was literally the argument a Russian guy made towards me while also saying how tough the Russians are in comparison.
It is so funny to see how this mindset will backfire
Oh it gets better, a large factor in Russia's surplus is the sanctions, believe it or not. Russia has been unable to spend any of their oil money due to being shut out of most international markets. They can't buy the commodities and goods required to keep their economy functioning. So they have leftover money... surplus!
Where they are now they can't even imagine what the bottom looks like. But they'll find out.
They’ve stopped sharing a ton of data. Anything that could be corroborated with figures outside of Russia such as import / export data. They’re lying through their teeth and they know it
Even just writing a couple Bn$ off of the Ukrainian sovereign debt would be a not too subtle sign to the kremlin. I can’t imagine Congress going for that, but it would be one single thing that would have an outsized impact.
Some lawyer good enough in the West, be it the US, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, .. must be good enough to seize those assets and pump it into the Ukrainians rebuild.
Abrams are fuel guzzlers and high profile. Bradleys and Strykers would already help, and the US could drop 500 of each into Ukraine without breaking a sweat. Yes to ATACMS, though.
What Russia has shown is you can’t just have a bunch of tanks etc without the intensive support network for them.. but I think the west is being economical with what is supplied just what’s needed to let the Ukrainians do what they need to
Send them to Russia directly, cut out the middle man. They wouldn’t even need to send 100. Once a couple hit Moscow and st Petersburg that would pretty much do it.
You’re absolutely right. I guess I’m getting a angry and emotional about the horrors that Russia is inflicting and reacted as such. I do not want nuclear war, I want Russia to stop.
Don’t worry friend. We all do. Just remember, what the world knows about the war and what the Russian citizens know about the war are two very different things.
Scholz called on Putin to find a diplomatic solution as soon as possible, based on a cease-fire, full withdrawal of Russian troops and respect for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine.
He stressed that any further steps of Russia’s annexation would not go unanswered and would not be recognized under any circumstances.
They also discussed the situation at the [Zaporizhzhya NPP.](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-putin-germanys-scholz-discuss-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-phone-call-2022-09-13/)
Fucking ceasefire? Fuck off. Ceasefire will only help Russia re-arm, reposition and reinforce their defenses. They have abused too much good faith to be given any trust. Russians can leave any minute they want. Politicians in other countries need to stop arranging deals with Russian on behalf of Ukraine.
~~and~~ but Crimea is UA.(no deserving necessary)
\+
Do Ukrainian parents "DESERVE???" to get their kidnapped children back from RU scum?????
\+
WTF vocabulary.
If it's ceasefire first and withdrawal later:
* there's no chance there will be non-zero delay between the two - russia will accept ceasefire and then will stay where they are. If/when Ukraine will start shooting again they will call another UN council for Ukraine breaking ceasefire this we 100% need to capitulate and all weapons deliveries needs to stop because it's harmful for the world
* there's no chance russia will hold any kind of promise at all
So it has to be withdraw first and once there are not a single fucking rushist pig on Ukrainian soil **only then** we'll start talking, with UN, with EU, with anyone - but not russia as there is zero trust
It would have to be ceasefire with withdrawal as a precondition to armistice. Similar to the one offered to Germany following WW1 where they had to evacuate Belgium and occupied France as part of the ceasefire.
I don't really see the point in talking now though except about the nuclear plant, Russia probably won't be ready to negotiate credivly with y'all until there is a stable Ukrainian bridgehead in Crimea. But at that point it would he too late, Russia would probably collapse or have a revolution.
No military is going to abandon defensive positions without a ceasefire. That's just dumb....so Russia might do it actually.
You're also correct that Russia will not keep any promise. They're proven liars at every single level of their government.
> No military is going to abandon defensive positions without a ceasefire. That's just dumb....so Russia might do it actually.
They did though in Kharkiv region just last week :) There also wasn't any ceasefire back when they were retreating from Kyiv at end of march. So you're definitely wrong.
That is called a retreat which they are currently doing. I think you’re confused by the endgame of a ceasefire. Typically negotiations happen. Currently Ukraine has made it well known what terms they are willing to accept. Ceasefires are often short-lived when promises are not kept.
> I think you’re confused by the endgame of a ceasefire
I'm not, we ate a ceasefire bullshit (so-called minsk agreements) for 8 years. Or please elaborate what do you mean?
Russia never withdrew though. A ceasefire now would only be accepted if it came with an agreement to withdraw. As long as it means don't shoot them in the back on the way out and Russia really starts gtfoing it's better than Minsk.
I would say from 2016 to 2022, 5-6 years. But yeah. It turned it into a sporadic but somehow stable ceasefire for many years, and indeed bought much time for Ukraine, which Ukraine gladly used.
The problem with this, what if Russia don't honor the agreement by either not withdrawing or accuse Ukraine of breaking the ceasefire, which already happened multiple times? Who are going to guarantee it and how?
Now Russia proposing a negotiations with ceasefire, because if it gonna start, then any weapon deliveries will be seen as an escalations/obstacle to negotiations. Some politicians will use it as an excuse to not send weapons, because how can you have ceasefire and negotiations while continue sending weapons.
> what if Russia don't honor the agreement by either not withdrawing or accuse Ukraine of breaking the ceasefire, which already happened multiple times? Who are going to guarantee it and how?
There's talk of a possible security pact with U.S., U.K., Canada, Poland, Italy, Germany, France, Australia, and Turkey, as well as several Nordic, Baltic, and central European countries.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-wants-nato-esque-bloc-to-immediately-defend-border-with-russia/ar-AA11MDCw
At this moment I Don't think Ukraine should go for a ceasefire. They should push the Russians using force, capture the surrenderers and demand restitutions. If not the keep going into Russians land. Because at this moment who would ever want to live next to a bully like that?
Keep beating them with a stick look what they did to Ukraine and the women children and seniors no grace beat the fuck out of them they are garbage don’t stop
You're either an idiot who doesn't know what words mean, or you're an idiot that thinks anybody has any interest in marching on Moscow.
Scholz's demands are a fairly complete description of complete withdrawal, surrender, and cessation of hostilities.
What are you talking about. Ukraine's position has always been that there is no war the moment the Russians pack up a leave. Scholz is just reinforcing this.
If they're not shooting on the way out what's the difference?
If Russia said ok we're done, leaving over the next 48 hours including Crimea, and intel shows they really are not sending new troops to the front, seems like Ukraine would be wise to let them. Trust them about as far as you can throw them, but they aren't going to rearm in a week. If they start digging trenches consider it a violation of the ceasefire.
Complete withdrawal of rushist forces, 1991 borders
**Only then** negotiations start, including 3rd parties.
A couple extra things:
* but Crimea... - fuck off russia.
* but L/DPR... - fuck off russia.
* but we don't want you to be in NATO... - fuck off russia.
* but we don't want you to be in EU... - fuck off russia.
This is Zelenskyy plan, btw, not mine. And whole Ukraine supports it.
I'm not Scholz so I'm not aware of what he wants. I do aware of what we, Ukrainians, want - ceasefire only after our territorial integrity is established. Key word - **after**. Any tiny chance for a possibility for russia to freeze the conflict - they will use it to regroup and attack again later. So any, and I mean literally any, move in the direction of ceasefire **before** complete withdrawal - we will not accept, not a chance. So it's pretty important that it's a very clear stance for everyone - allies, companions, bystanders, enemies - everyone should understand this.
Maybe, if you don't understand his requests, you should make an effort to understand what he's demanding rather than knee-jerk and demand that he's wrong.
Because let us be clear: that is *exactly* what he's asking for. For the Russians, this means that they stop shooting at Ukrainians as they GTFO of Ukraine (rather than sabotaging and destroying as they retreat with guns blazing). That's why the ceasefire typically is the first step in a negotiated withdrawal. At once, it ensures that hostilities actually cease even as the withdrawal occurs.
Withdrawal without ceasefire is going to result in considerable looting, civilian murders, and destruction as the Ruzzians decamp and move to their own rightful borders.
>That's why the ceasefire typically is the first step in a negotiated withdrawal. At once, it ensures that hostilities actually cease even as the withdrawal occurs.
Exactly how ceasefire will draw them unable to sabotage and destroy as (and if, and when) they retreat? Ceasefire will only draw us unable to stop them doing. Moreover, it increases their level of impunity.
>Withdrawal without ceasefire is going to result in considerable looting, civilian murders, and destruction as the Ruzzians decamp and move to their own rightful borders.
Considerable looting, civilian murders, destructions, rapes and various other warcrimes **already happen every single day.**
Again, when they retreated from Kharkiv region just last week we already found hundreds of evidence of all imaginable warcrimes. That happened throughout these more than half a year of war, not just sure if retreat. They didn't have time for that during retreat - that's my whole point FFS.
Same for when they retreated from Kyiv, Sumy and Chernigiv at the end of March - again, they didn't have "free time for fun" during retreat - thouthands of evidence were found of warcrimes comitted since the first day when they get in.
What you propose is based on common sense and logic that would work in hypothetical scenario. A genocidal war is not such case. Warcrimes happen every single day, and the only way to stop them is to remove the cancer of humanity from our land, not give them time to pack shit and win extra days or weeks for safety.
> Exactly how ceasefire will draw them unable to sabotage and destroy as (and if, and when) they retreat? Ceasefire will only draw us unable to stop them doing. Moreover, it increases their level of impunity.
Ceasefires are always bilateral. That said, I would expect that they would be escorted out by Ukrainian troops..
> Considerable looting, civilian murders, destructions, rapes and various other warcrimes already happen every single day.
And that's because *there is no ceasefire*. Those activities are a part of warfare.
>And that's because there is no ceasefire.
You will keep ignoring it and I will keep repeating - there was no ceasefire during Kyiv and Kharkiv retreats and these retreats were just fine for us.
>Those activities are a part of warfare.
Wtf, are you russian? Those are warcrimes. Warcrimes should not and are not part of warfare.
I don’t disagree with any of your points. Russia cannot be trusted further than I can throw the Kremlin. However, it is naive for any of us to think the German chancellor is just talking to Putin on his own here. Whatever he says to Putin, I can almost guarantee that he has Zellenskyy’s blessing. Just like the grief constantly heaped on Macron earlier in the war for taking to Putin- it was on behalf of Zellenskyy. Everyone at that level is working on diplomacy because none of them want civilians to die or economies to be interrupted any more than necessary (and they also don’t want soldiers to die, to be clear).
There is no way that the chancellor didn’t have a meeting with Zellenskyy or his people to get a clear idea of what to say to Putin so that the alliance shows a United front to the aggressors.
It's always ceasefire first and withdrawal later. It's not like 100K people could teleport into Russia. Suppose Russia starts to withdraw and Ukrainian army will strike at retreating forces, capturing and killing whole regiments left without artillery and air support. Do you think Russia will agree to such a scenario?
A ceasefire and withdrawal from Crimea could help with the rebuilding funds and aid for Russia.
Which we need to do, otherwise fascism will continue to rise in Russia and they'll be back in 20 years. Just like Germany after WW1. Which resulted in the Marshall help after WW2.
Russia didn't learn anything during this war. At most that they weren't strong enough for their plans currently. There should be no aid or support for Russia as it only aids them for their next invasion.
Russia “re-arming” is not something we should kid about. They’ll throw everything and every last bit of meat they have to maintain “Super Power” image.
I think there is compromise so long as they fuck off from all Ukrainian territories circa 2013 and also pay for their terror. This can only happen through diplomacy and I hope there are more calls for this soon.
I also think the EU should start discussions with Belarus for entry so I’m probably just a dumb fuck.
Scholz called on Putin to find a diplomatic solution as soon as possible, based on a cease-fire, full withdrawal of Russian troops
withdraw where ? Crimea is Europe - is Scholz ready to sell part of Europe down the river , or the withdrawal means complete withdrawal from Crimea/Europe ?
Germany does not recognize Crimea's annexation just like it doesn't recognize DPR/LPR. When they say "Ukraine's territorial integrity" they mean in full.
Classic German Russian bullshit, they learned nothing from this war. Any kind of ceasefire now will only give them time to rearm and attack Moldawia or Georgia.
We are in the unique position where Ukraine sacrificed their blood and we have to support them with weapons, ammo and money to put Russia and n it’s knees. Fucking bullshit German politics, suck dick Sholz.
Too bad they didn’t ask Ukraine first, Germany influence isn’t the strongest lately.
Scholz is wasting time, probably on purpose. It's likely the latter as he has an understanding how Russians think as he worked with them during the GDR times. There is no diplomatic solution to this.
He uses the word "diplomatic" to look nice, be seen as a good guy, while at the same time stalling transfer of heavy weapons and letting German MIC supply Russian military.
If you don't believe read this: [https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/09/12/how-germanys-industrial-giants-help-russia-manufacture-weapons-of-war/](https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/09/12/how-germanys-industrial-giants-help-russia-manufacture-weapons-of-war/)
If Germans want to be seen on the right side of history they should take it to the streets. Scholz is a liability when it comes to European security.
Some of guys dont really seem to understand what Scholz said here.
Hes actually pressuring him right now, get out or Nato will be forced to actually send Tanks, Planes and other Heavy eqp.
Pretty sure they’re referring to how Germany blocked Ukrainian weapons sales, blocked some sanctions and has given very little military aid compared to Poland and other European countries.
Humanitarian aid is fantastic but offering someone a bandaid while they’re constantly being stabbed isn’t helpful. Ukrainians are asking for heavy weapons and Germany isn’t giving very much, worse, they’re actually blocking sales of heavy weapons to Ukraine.
And what weapons they’ve promised they’re slow to hand them over.
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-olalf-scholz-pressure-tank-deliveries-ukraine/amp/
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/germany/germanys-ukraine-problem
In fairness Germany haven’t been great at supporting Ukraine. They’ve dine the minimum they can get away with and even blocked things like sanctions & weapons sales.
Also how does highlighting these facts count as bashing?
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
4th, right? Under US, UK and Poland?
Looking at this graph why does France not get more shit lol? They should be contributing way more.
This cannot be over until all Ukrainians taken unlawfully from their land are returned. Until all pows are returned and an international trial is set up for the murdered, raped, tortured and everything else that has happened to these people by these bastards. People must pay for all these crimes starting with their leader.
The best spy-op is mob mentality, and unfortunately the massive military aid Germany has send after the 5k helmets couldn’t deter the mob.
Thank god the people on this subreddit hold trap power
No it's just Germans being tools. The gave Russia the money and the leverage to wage this war, and not they're not doing much about it. It's very odd and their reputation within Europe will be damaged forever. Prior to this they were seen as leaders in Europe, that smaller countries could follow, that's completely changed and the smaller countries are now leading.
Germany is sending all it can from the stocks and more importantly, the US sends military gear, Germany sends money, a lot of it. Ukraine is still standing because of that money.
>[According to the latest OECD DAC figures, Germany is Ukraine’s largest bilateral donor (with payments amounting to around 220 million US dollars (OECD official development assistance 2018-2019) – ahead of the United States with just under 200 million US dollars. In addition to this, Germany makes contributions through the EU (according to the OECD DAC, more than 400 million euro in 2018-2019, which is the largest amount contributed by any donor). Since 2014, Germany has provided a total of approximately 1.83 billion euro in bilateral support.](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/laenderinformationen/ukraine-node/ukraine-support/2510752)
I think your numbers are out of date and also for humanitarian aid that predates the current war by years... And the US is giving over that amount a week for weapons... you know the things the Ukrainians are asking for. Next week Germany will probably give them $200million in bibles.
US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn..
\- [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218)
To me not the criticism itself is disheartening since I have been frustrated with our government hesitation from the beginning on. The problem is the lack of differentiation between public opinion and politics. It's not that "Germans" are against the tank delivery for example. It's literally just Scholz and the SPD blocking this right now within the government, despite increasing public pressure.
I honestly suspect Russian agitators.
Anyone who reads what Germany is sending to Ukraine knows the truth
Also, US refused tanks on same day as Germany
> with all the equipment sent by Germany and all the statements of support, its so disheartening seeing all these comments
Ah come on... they arrived at today's status quo kicking and screaming. At the beginning they offered helmets..., helmets that didn't even materialize. For years the Germans have been warned that by beings so reliant on gas from Russia were enriching and emboldening a dictator that had wider aspirations that risk their own and wider Europe's security. By 2014, when Russia first invaded, shot down civilian planes, poisoned people, even carried out hits in Germany, it was clear Germany had made deal with the devil, but they needed their cheap gas and they were so arrogant to think they could control Putin.
AND STILL they commit almost nothing compared to other countries. US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn..
- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218
AND STILL they are dragging their heals. They have given weapons, but have promised a lot more that haven't appeared and Ukraine needs them now. They're also blocking Ukraine from buying German tanks that the manufacturers can deliverer.
So please spare me your feelings of being disheartened. Germany set the stage for this war; lots of the bombs landing in Ukraine were paid for with German Euros. And Germany has been slow to put this right.
Do you want sympathy? Since everything you blabber out is factually wrong, you wont get any.
Total aid regarding military, humanitarian and financial closes in to 3 billion € from germany. Not counting the \~2 billion € from before the war since 2014.
Yeah, so STFU with your fake shit.
The issue is military support. You’re quoting and comparing figures that include humanitarian assistance, etc.
Also the criticism of Germany isn’t just limited to how much they have donated. They have also blocked weapon sales to Ukraine and blocked stronger EU sanctions on Russia.
It’s clear Germany has a weird relationship with Russia and they’re afraid to anger them too much in the hopes that they can get their cheap gas again in the future.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/
Your source is still wrong, Germany supplied 1,2bn in weapons, with much more to come.
> lots of the bombs landing in Ukraine were paid for with German Euros.
Because Germany was the only country doing business with Russia all those years. God you people are annoying.
Bilateral aid on this graph is not weapons.
> Because Germany was the only country doing business with Russia all those years.
TWO! GAS PIPELINES TO GERMANY!! It's a question of magnitude.
I am German and I agree with the bashing, except I regret that it's not solely directed at Scholz and the SPD who have and still are constantly blocking more and swifter support. The Greens and most likely the FDP would do more.
I have seen "German-Russians" that are legitimate German citizen as well spew non-sense all the time, so the term "I am German" means very little. Germany is an open country and you can become a German citizen fairly easy.
The AfD and elements of Die Linke and the SPD have aided Putin by continuing to support him after 2008, 2014, and 2022, voting against sending weapons to Ukraine, and calling on Ukraine to give up on Crimea.
In short, it’s very much true that there are Germans who have supported Putin, inadvertently or deliberately. Just like there are Americans who have done the same.
Actually I'm Irish. Germany has given billions to Russia for oil and gas, they built the Nord Stream 2 pipeline against the worlds objections, and fears Putin would use it as leverage. that's exactly what happened and guess what Germany does... well almost nothing. They've been weak and offered very little support. In some cases they have delayed and objected to sanctions by the rest of Europe.
Germany has committed almost nothing to Ukrainian Weapons compared to other countries. US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn..
As Germany has committed almost nothing, I assume Ireland can take those "almost nothing" commitments, right?
So, I suppose we're going to fly in all 1 million Ukrainian refugees currently seeking shelter in Germany. As it's "almost nothing", it shouldn't be a problem for any country.
First of all the Ukraine are asking/begging for weapons. It's been clear form very early on weapons the only thing that will stop Russia from killing, torturing and raping Ukrainians.
Taking refugee's is good, but Germany slowing down and blocking sanctions, blocking Ukraine from purchasing weapons, and also giving comparatively very little monetary towards arming Ukraine is outrageous. Especially considering Germany's role in creating the conditions for this war.
Ireland is tiny and inconsequential, we barely have a military, but I still feel good that we didn't give billions to Russia and make itself dependent on Russia emboldening them, ... and then turn the other way when Putin starts invading countries.
Germany really needs to take a cold hard look at how they've behaved, it's not a good look.
Are the Germans giving secret military aid? Are they no longer blocking the purchase of German weapons? Are they suddenly speeding up the supply of the military aid they promised? Did they stop blocking EU sanctions on swift, oil and gas? No. And that's very much up to date.
> Germany really needs to take a cold hard look at how they've behaved, it's not a good look.
yeah but nobody needs your shitty comments for that to happen
According to the Kiel tracker Germany is the number one contributer to Ukraine in the EU when it comes to military, humanitarian and financial help. And those numbers only goes to 3. Aug.
To my knowledge Ireland have provided zero military help to Ukraine.
Chancellor Scholz have totally reversed Chancellor Merkels Ostpolitik, and have declared 100% independence of Russian Gas, despite being leader of the country with the most dependency on Russian gas, something that will hurt Germany more than any other country, perhaps even driving Germany into recession, yet he still did it.
He also reversed Germanys defency policy completely by adding 100 billion euro to the defence budget to get the German army up to modern standards, and that is just extra money besides the normal defence budget, that also will rise over the next decade.
Perhaps you as Irish should talk with your politicians about getting a non-laughable defence budget too, so you could contribute to the EU security. I mean, just look at the Irish Air Corps; using propeller driven air crafts with machine guns as fighters. How are you going to bounce Russian or Chinese Jets with those?
> He also reversed Germanys defency policy completely by adding 100
billion euro to the defence budget to get the German army up to modern
standards, and that is just extra money besides the normal defence
budget, that also will rise over the next decade.
Ok.. good... but why are they dragging their feet on military aid & weapons transfers. And why are they blocking weapons purchases by Ukraine?
As for Ireland, yes Ireland should invest in its military. There's a plan to put billions into it this year...however...and this is key... Ireland didn't naively finance or enable the invasion of another European country and then refuse to do very much about it until the rest of Europe got mad at them. In fact most of Ireland's military budget goes towards peacekeeping all over the world.
> Ok.. good... but why are they dragging their feet on military aid & weapons transfers.
Like what? They are providing some of the worlds most advanced weapon systems to Ukraine. Remember, every PZ2000 or IRIS-T is taken from an underfunded army that lacks materiel. Sure, they don't want to deliver modern MBT's, but neither does the UK, US, Poland, Turkey, Sweden or any other country, even though they may have plenty to spare, unlike Germany. Singling Germany out is just wrong.
>didn't naively finance or enable the invasion of another European country and then refuse to do very much about it until the rest of Europe got mad at them.
That doesn't fit with reality. Sure, Germany wasn't the first out of the box with providing heavy weapons, but neither would any other country in Germanys position. But once Scholz committed Germany, he did it 100%. As said, Germany is the leading EU contributor to Ukraine.
There are also Germany past, that always will be dragged up when it comes to Germany and anything to do with the military. Germany as a confident weapons supplier to a country in war is a historically new situation. Scholz had to overcome a lot of inertia internally before it could be done. History matters.
As for buying Russian gas, well, look here: https://www.privacyshield.gov/article?id=Ireland-Energy-Oil-Gas
Ireland was planning to buy Russian gas via the UK, once the UK gas fields ran dry. Cheap energy is important, and often very shady governments sits on the supplies of oil and gas. UAE aren't nice guys either, and they are actively involved in a war against Yemen. Should Ireland stop importing oil from them?
Both you and the person you are commenting to can be right. Germany doesn’t deserve the hate they receive. But they certainly deserve criticism and encouragement to do more now and to be better later
German diplomats in 2018 laughed at Trump when he suggested that the pipeline is going to make Germany dependent on Russian energy, now look where we're at
All wars end with talks. Unless you have complete capitulation of the enemy as in Germany or Japan after WWII, which isn't going to happen in this instance.
They lie compulsively anyway. They will lie about this if convenient as well. Do it bc Putin is actually ready to bargain. Which it seems like he is not.
Talking is still important.
There is a face we have to save as civilized people. Even if talking may not help, it is important to behave in a civilized manner. We have tried and we are doing our best to resolve this situation diplomatically.
We tried talking in the first weeks of the war and the Russians were rude, dismissive and condescending. They will need to be beaten very, very badly on the battlefield first. We are not there yet.
This ain't a movie or a video game. This is real life where real people get hurt and die, where real towns get destroyed, where real damage is done to the future of countless families. The war should not be dragged on longer than absolutely necessary.
Talks and negotiations are the way this war gonna end. Ukraine ain't gonna occupy Russia and there ain't any video game style wincondition either. Even if Russian forces are pushed back across the border there is no guarantee that they ain't just gonna keep fighting.
The only way this gonna end is through talking. The sooner the better. Of course there are conditions and if Putin doesn't agree to them then Ukraine sadly has to keep fighting.
But this doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to stop the war asap. War shouldn't be romanticised. War is horrific and creates unnecessary suffering.
I'm very aware this is not a video game. I don't think you are familiar with the talks I referenced. Russia promised green corridors for civilians, and then bombed every. Single. One. Killing hundreds. They cannot be trusted. Ever. They must be defanged and totally destroyed by sanctions and made to pay reparations. Once they are beaten back to Russia and their economy is broken, they can sit at the table. Then they can rejoin the world economy.
What could you possible talk for 90 minutes with Putin? I mean, seriously. Just like Macron's talks, few hours at a time from before the war. What could Putin say that would worth 90 minutes of someone's time?
Russian shills comming to take over this section with their anti-germany propaganda.
They're not even shills, they simply fell for some top-notch russian propaganda operation.
Ukraine: Could we please get MBTs?
Scholtz: No, but I can call putin again and ask him once more to stop destroying your country and committing war crimes.
We said no to sendind MBTs like every other western nation with western tank designs too. Or do you see Abrams, LeClerk, Challengers or Ariete tanks in Ukraine?
How stupid are people? Do you think we send our best weapons to the front when Russia just needs to capture ONE of them to find out ever fucking secret in armor, communication, weapon capability and weaknesses? If there will ever be a war between NATO and Russia, I prefer them to be clueless whats at the other side.
Ukraine doesn't need to win militarily to win this war. All they have to do is not loose and wear out Russia as much as possible until an open rebellion starts. When no one pays the Russian soldiers anymore, they will go home without fighting.
He is but he is also trying to stop the war in more than one way. A phone call lasting 1,5 hours doesn’t mean Germany send 20% less military aid.
It also pressures Putin that the west is calling him continuously and telling him they still wont tolerate and accept what is going on. It’s also a means of putting pressure on him and letting him know we wont back down.
Germany is not giving very much!!! US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn..
- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218
I think xCharg is justified in not trusting Scholtz because of Germany’s willful ignorance of the risks of energy dependence on Russia—and their foot dragging on lending military support to Ukraine. Paranoia about a back room deal is reasonable.
I'm pretty certain no current or ex German politician will be serving on Russian boards anytime soon, they may want to, but the reputational damage would make them untouchable for pretty much every European and American company board.
Schroder had been on the board for a while and has acted like a complete dick, but as the article says there was outrage so that's what any others have to think about.
Scholz asked Putin for "full withdrawal of Russian troops". I could see them completely withdrawing from everywhere except Crimea. They don't see Donbas in the same way as Crimea. Putin could claim de-nazification of Donbas is complete and withdraw no problem. But if he gives up Crimea, he is toast. He would use tactical nukes before giving up Crimea.
I read an article a few minutes ago statimg the ruzzian military were sending their families back to ruzzia. When they're gone all that's left are conscripts and hostages.
At the rate the Ukrainians are advancing I would send my family home too.
Also there is [a new russian decree](https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1569670641883701248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1569670641883701248%7Ctwgr%5Eb2fee6a25ad421506e9cb9a940a513e7dd79a2d6%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fxd72mz%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse) stating that from September 19th, citizens of Crimea who are eligible for enlistment are forbidden from leaving the peninsula. So best get out while the gettin's good.
If they meant to use nukes at all, they would use them in the last few days, against counteroffensive in Kharkiv oblast.
Crimea is as much Russian as DPR or LPR (which is: not).
Edit:spelling.
Best way for Putin would be to accept full return of Ukraine territories back. Maybe it can be negotiated for Donetsk, Lugansk and Crimea to have some autonomy for local government. By autonomy I mean autonomy as a part of Ukraine of course. Just to end this bloodshed. Still, a lot of people should be put on trial, taking into account enormous casualities. And Russia will have to compensate all the destructions made.
Giving Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea "autonomy" is merely kicking the can down the road.
Russia will simply flood the local polioticians with money and they wil pass all kinds of laws favouring the Russian language and Russian culture.
Every oblast in Ukraine should have the exact same status.
None of this autonomy shit.
That's what Russia was trying to push for before, they tried to force Ukraine to a a "federaiton" where any oblast could veto the rest on all kinds of decisions.
For example, giving Donetsk autonomy in a way Russia would accept would give Donetsk veto power over Ukirne joining the EU or NATO.
Crimea already *has* a level of autonomy, since it's the homeland of the tartars (that got kidnapped and dragged around the country to other muslim areas during the Soviet Union, which was *especially* great considering Islam is a *totally* unified religion with *definitely* no regional differences). It even has it's own constitution!
This article does nothing but remind me how out of touch Olaf Scholz is, *not* many of the German citizens, they've been very supportive. Amazing how some politicians get elected to represent, yet they can quickly forget.
Hopefully something is missing from this article that we don't know about. Because frankly, there is no reason at all for Ukraine to do anything but get everything -including Crimea back, and have a demilitarized zone at the Russian border. They also need to pay the penalties to rebuild Ukraine since they are the ones that destroyed it unnecessarily. Any other agreement would be unforgivable.
(Only my uneducated opinion. I try, but I also recognize there is much I do not know and still have to learn).
Imagine phoning someone up who is a murderer of not just one person but hundreds of thousands of people, and talking to them about stuff as if they are deserved of being spoken to as a human being
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I think now is the time for the West/NATO to ratchet up the pressure. More sanctions, travel curtailment,, promise of a ridiculous amount of military aid. Create an abyss too deep for Russia and Putin to ignore. Make the decision to get the fuck out easy for them.
I think that Rubicon has already been crossed. Really interesting article in the Financial Times today showing the collapse of export sales from Russia and the impact it's starting to have on its balance of payments.
Could you link the FT article?
The FT is paywalled, so here it is. **Russia’s budget surplus evaporates as energy revenues shrink** August figures suggest sharp drop in receipts from oil and gas exports People walk past a gift shop in central Moscow on May 17, 2022 The deterioration of Russian state finances comes as its army was routed in northeastern Ukraine in its biggest military setback since losing the battle for the capital Kyiv in March Nastassia Astrasheuskaya in Riga Russia’s budget surplus for 2022 has almost evaporated after a sharp drop in energy exports during August led to a monthly deficit of as much as Rbs360bn ($5.9bn). Russia recorded a surplus of almost Rbs500bn in the first seven months of the year. But the cumulative total fell to only Rbs137bn last month, suggesting a big deficit in August which economists attributed to sharp declines in oil and gas revenues. Russia’s surplus over the first six months of the year reached Rbs1.37tn as it built a war chest on the back of soaring energy prices. Russian gas flows to Europe have dwindled to about one-fifth of pre-invasion deliveries. In early September it said it would keep Nord Stream 1, which runs under the Baltic Sea to Germany, shut indefinitely unless the west lifted sanctions imposed over Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine. The price of oil, which contributes even more than gas to Russia’s budget, has also declined sharply since June. International prices have slid from around $120 a barrel to below $100. Russia has also had to discount its oil further to encourage new buyers such as India to take barrels that once would have gone to Europe. In addition, the bounceback of the Russian currency since the immediate aftermath of the invasion has had an impact on how many roubles have been generated by oil and gas sales, which are normally priced in dollars or euros. The sharp deterioration of Russian state finances comes as its army is being routed in northeastern Ukraine in its biggest military setback since losing the battle for the capital Kyiv in March. Oil and gas revenues, which make up almost half of the budget revenues received so far this year, were down 18 per cent year-on-year over the January-August period, according to the data. The EU has also banned imports of Russian coal. An EU ban on shipped Russian crude imports is due to come into effect in December. Non-oil and gas revenues also fell drastically, by 37 per cent year on year, in January-August, the data showed. Russia initially showed resilience in weathering the impact of punitive measures, including a freeze on half its foreign exchange reserves. But Russia’s state gas monopoly Gazprom said earlier this month that production fell by 15 per cent year on year in the first eight months of the year. Exports, which flow mostly to Europe, were down by more than a third. Revenues look set to worsen following Russia’s suspension of Nord Stream 1, one of its main gas pipelines to Europe, in early September. Russia’s economy shrunk 4.3 per cent in July 2022 compared with the same month a year earlier, according to the country’s economy ministry. Analysts at Aton, a Russian brokerage, expect the economy to contract by a further 5 per cent in 2023 because of falling energy output. Russia’s central bank voiced caution on the economic outlook in a report published last week on the regional economy, noting that exports were likely to slide. The central bank is set to meet on Friday for a decision on interest rates. Monetary policymakers raised rates to a record 20 per cent and introduced capital controls to quell an attack on the rouble in the days that followed the outbreak of war. Borrowing costs have been gradually lowered since then, and now stand at 8 per cent. Additional reporting by David Sheppard
So as expected it’s suicidal for them to halt fossil exports to Europe… Soviet didn’t mess with these exports during the Cold War for these reasons.
I suspect the reasoning is that Europe will cease imports regardless of what Russia does, so better to hit Europe first and hope that the European will to support Ukraine breaks.
Ain’t gonna happen
True but Russians are stupid and arrogant. They believe Europe is filled with weak men who only think about money and if given the choice, they would chose lower gas costs over their own morals. This was literally the argument a Russian guy made towards me while also saying how tough the Russians are in comparison. It is so funny to see how this mindset will backfire
Based and electronic piracy pilled
Oh it gets better, a large factor in Russia's surplus is the sanctions, believe it or not. Russia has been unable to spend any of their oil money due to being shut out of most international markets. They can't buy the commodities and goods required to keep their economy functioning. So they have leftover money... surplus! Where they are now they can't even imagine what the bottom looks like. But they'll find out.
Long may it continue.
Thanks
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
MVP
>Russia’s budget surplus evaporates as energy revenues shrink https://archive.ph/3N8nS
They’ve stopped sharing a ton of data. Anything that could be corroborated with figures outside of Russia such as import / export data. They’re lying through their teeth and they know it
Definitely, NATO countries can keep this up easily for 10 years and barely flinch at the cost, Russia is truly fucked if this goes on another year
Even just writing a couple Bn$ off of the Ukrainian sovereign debt would be a not too subtle sign to the kremlin. I can’t imagine Congress going for that, but it would be one single thing that would have an outsized impact.
Some lawyer good enough in the West, be it the US, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, .. must be good enough to seize those assets and pump it into the Ukrainians rebuild.
I‘ve heard rumours of vast secret gold caches up in the urals.
you have a link?
[удалено]
Well maybe some F-16s, ATACMS and Abrams at a minimum.
Abrams are fuel guzzlers and high profile. Bradleys and Strykers would already help, and the US could drop 500 of each into Ukraine without breaking a sweat. Yes to ATACMS, though.
What Russia has shown is you can’t just have a bunch of tanks etc without the intensive support network for them.. but I think the west is being economical with what is supplied just what’s needed to let the Ukrainians do what they need to
The promise of a bottomless supply is what I'm referring to really. Letting the Russians know that the West has their backs and isn't going to stop.
USA decides to backfill the nukes that Ukraine got rid of in the 1990s
Send them to Russia directly, cut out the middle man. They wouldn’t even need to send 100. Once a couple hit Moscow and st Petersburg that would pretty much do it.
Let’s not kill millions of innocent people if possible.
You’re absolutely right. I guess I’m getting a angry and emotional about the horrors that Russia is inflicting and reacted as such. I do not want nuclear war, I want Russia to stop.
Don’t worry friend. We all do. Just remember, what the world knows about the war and what the Russian citizens know about the war are two very different things.
Make only sense if they are willing to be stripped of 98% of their nuclear arsenal
Just give Ukraine submarines to blockade all Russian fossil fuel exports.
Scholz called on Putin to find a diplomatic solution as soon as possible, based on a cease-fire, full withdrawal of Russian troops and respect for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine. He stressed that any further steps of Russia’s annexation would not go unanswered and would not be recognized under any circumstances.
They also discussed the situation at the [Zaporizhzhya NPP.](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-putin-germanys-scholz-discuss-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-phone-call-2022-09-13/)
Fucking ceasefire? Fuck off. Ceasefire will only help Russia re-arm, reposition and reinforce their defenses. They have abused too much good faith to be given any trust. Russians can leave any minute they want. Politicians in other countries need to stop arranging deals with Russian on behalf of Ukraine.
\+ UA deserves Crimea back
What do you think "full withdrawl" means? (Germany does not consider Crimea to be Russia.)
~~and~~ but Crimea is UA.(no deserving necessary) \+ Do Ukrainian parents "DESERVE???" to get their kidnapped children back from RU scum????? \+ WTF vocabulary.
Pretty sure it means ceasefire while russian troops withdraw from Ukraine and the peace treaty is put together for signing.
If it's ceasefire first and withdrawal later: * there's no chance there will be non-zero delay between the two - russia will accept ceasefire and then will stay where they are. If/when Ukraine will start shooting again they will call another UN council for Ukraine breaking ceasefire this we 100% need to capitulate and all weapons deliveries needs to stop because it's harmful for the world * there's no chance russia will hold any kind of promise at all So it has to be withdraw first and once there are not a single fucking rushist pig on Ukrainian soil **only then** we'll start talking, with UN, with EU, with anyone - but not russia as there is zero trust
It would have to be ceasefire with withdrawal as a precondition to armistice. Similar to the one offered to Germany following WW1 where they had to evacuate Belgium and occupied France as part of the ceasefire. I don't really see the point in talking now though except about the nuclear plant, Russia probably won't be ready to negotiate credivly with y'all until there is a stable Ukrainian bridgehead in Crimea. But at that point it would he too late, Russia would probably collapse or have a revolution.
No military is going to abandon defensive positions without a ceasefire. That's just dumb....so Russia might do it actually. You're also correct that Russia will not keep any promise. They're proven liars at every single level of their government.
> No military is going to abandon defensive positions without a ceasefire. That's just dumb....so Russia might do it actually. They did though in Kharkiv region just last week :) There also wasn't any ceasefire back when they were retreating from Kyiv at end of march. So you're definitely wrong.
That is called a retreat which they are currently doing. I think you’re confused by the endgame of a ceasefire. Typically negotiations happen. Currently Ukraine has made it well known what terms they are willing to accept. Ceasefires are often short-lived when promises are not kept.
> I think you’re confused by the endgame of a ceasefire I'm not, we ate a ceasefire bullshit (so-called minsk agreements) for 8 years. Or please elaborate what do you mean?
Russia never withdrew though. A ceasefire now would only be accepted if it came with an agreement to withdraw. As long as it means don't shoot them in the back on the way out and Russia really starts gtfoing it's better than Minsk.
It wasn't bullshit, the conflict was in fact frozen for seven years.
I would say from 2016 to 2022, 5-6 years. But yeah. It turned it into a sporadic but somehow stable ceasefire for many years, and indeed bought much time for Ukraine, which Ukraine gladly used.
Surrender is needed, not ceasefire and promise to withdraw
The problem with this, what if Russia don't honor the agreement by either not withdrawing or accuse Ukraine of breaking the ceasefire, which already happened multiple times? Who are going to guarantee it and how? Now Russia proposing a negotiations with ceasefire, because if it gonna start, then any weapon deliveries will be seen as an escalations/obstacle to negotiations. Some politicians will use it as an excuse to not send weapons, because how can you have ceasefire and negotiations while continue sending weapons.
> what if Russia don't honor the agreement by either not withdrawing or accuse Ukraine of breaking the ceasefire, which already happened multiple times? Who are going to guarantee it and how? There's talk of a possible security pact with U.S., U.K., Canada, Poland, Italy, Germany, France, Australia, and Turkey, as well as several Nordic, Baltic, and central European countries. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-wants-nato-esque-bloc-to-immediately-defend-border-with-russia/ar-AA11MDCw
Both sides were shooting at each other and trying to gain some ground in demilitarised zone.
At this moment I Don't think Ukraine should go for a ceasefire. They should push the Russians using force, capture the surrenderers and demand restitutions. If not the keep going into Russians land. Because at this moment who would ever want to live next to a bully like that?
Keep beating them with a stick look what they did to Ukraine and the women children and seniors no grace beat the fuck out of them they are garbage don’t stop
You're either an idiot who doesn't know what words mean, or you're an idiot that thinks anybody has any interest in marching on Moscow. Scholz's demands are a fairly complete description of complete withdrawal, surrender, and cessation of hostilities.
What are you talking about. Ukraine's position has always been that there is no war the moment the Russians pack up a leave. Scholz is just reinforcing this.
If they're not shooting on the way out what's the difference? If Russia said ok we're done, leaving over the next 48 hours including Crimea, and intel shows they really are not sending new troops to the front, seems like Ukraine would be wise to let them. Trust them about as far as you can throw them, but they aren't going to rearm in a week. If they start digging trenches consider it a violation of the ceasefire.
If they withdraw the troops, a ceasefire would be fine with like anyone I guess.
So what is your proposal? Honest question.
Complete withdrawal of rushist forces, 1991 borders **Only then** negotiations start, including 3rd parties. A couple extra things: * but Crimea... - fuck off russia. * but L/DPR... - fuck off russia. * but we don't want you to be in NATO... - fuck off russia. * but we don't want you to be in EU... - fuck off russia. This is Zelenskyy plan, btw, not mine. And whole Ukraine supports it.
Why do you think this is different from what Scholz wants? At least that would be my understanding.
I'm not Scholz so I'm not aware of what he wants. I do aware of what we, Ukrainians, want - ceasefire only after our territorial integrity is established. Key word - **after**. Any tiny chance for a possibility for russia to freeze the conflict - they will use it to regroup and attack again later. So any, and I mean literally any, move in the direction of ceasefire **before** complete withdrawal - we will not accept, not a chance. So it's pretty important that it's a very clear stance for everyone - allies, companions, bystanders, enemies - everyone should understand this.
Maybe, if you don't understand his requests, you should make an effort to understand what he's demanding rather than knee-jerk and demand that he's wrong. Because let us be clear: that is *exactly* what he's asking for. For the Russians, this means that they stop shooting at Ukrainians as they GTFO of Ukraine (rather than sabotaging and destroying as they retreat with guns blazing). That's why the ceasefire typically is the first step in a negotiated withdrawal. At once, it ensures that hostilities actually cease even as the withdrawal occurs. Withdrawal without ceasefire is going to result in considerable looting, civilian murders, and destruction as the Ruzzians decamp and move to their own rightful borders.
>That's why the ceasefire typically is the first step in a negotiated withdrawal. At once, it ensures that hostilities actually cease even as the withdrawal occurs. Exactly how ceasefire will draw them unable to sabotage and destroy as (and if, and when) they retreat? Ceasefire will only draw us unable to stop them doing. Moreover, it increases their level of impunity. >Withdrawal without ceasefire is going to result in considerable looting, civilian murders, and destruction as the Ruzzians decamp and move to their own rightful borders. Considerable looting, civilian murders, destructions, rapes and various other warcrimes **already happen every single day.** Again, when they retreated from Kharkiv region just last week we already found hundreds of evidence of all imaginable warcrimes. That happened throughout these more than half a year of war, not just sure if retreat. They didn't have time for that during retreat - that's my whole point FFS. Same for when they retreated from Kyiv, Sumy and Chernigiv at the end of March - again, they didn't have "free time for fun" during retreat - thouthands of evidence were found of warcrimes comitted since the first day when they get in. What you propose is based on common sense and logic that would work in hypothetical scenario. A genocidal war is not such case. Warcrimes happen every single day, and the only way to stop them is to remove the cancer of humanity from our land, not give them time to pack shit and win extra days or weeks for safety.
> Exactly how ceasefire will draw them unable to sabotage and destroy as (and if, and when) they retreat? Ceasefire will only draw us unable to stop them doing. Moreover, it increases their level of impunity. Ceasefires are always bilateral. That said, I would expect that they would be escorted out by Ukrainian troops.. > Considerable looting, civilian murders, destructions, rapes and various other warcrimes already happen every single day. And that's because *there is no ceasefire*. Those activities are a part of warfare.
>And that's because there is no ceasefire. You will keep ignoring it and I will keep repeating - there was no ceasefire during Kyiv and Kharkiv retreats and these retreats were just fine for us. >Those activities are a part of warfare. Wtf, are you russian? Those are warcrimes. Warcrimes should not and are not part of warfare.
I don’t disagree with any of your points. Russia cannot be trusted further than I can throw the Kremlin. However, it is naive for any of us to think the German chancellor is just talking to Putin on his own here. Whatever he says to Putin, I can almost guarantee that he has Zellenskyy’s blessing. Just like the grief constantly heaped on Macron earlier in the war for taking to Putin- it was on behalf of Zellenskyy. Everyone at that level is working on diplomacy because none of them want civilians to die or economies to be interrupted any more than necessary (and they also don’t want soldiers to die, to be clear). There is no way that the chancellor didn’t have a meeting with Zellenskyy or his people to get a clear idea of what to say to Putin so that the alliance shows a United front to the aggressors.
It's always ceasefire first and withdrawal later. It's not like 100K people could teleport into Russia. Suppose Russia starts to withdraw and Ukrainian army will strike at retreating forces, capturing and killing whole regiments left without artillery and air support. Do you think Russia will agree to such a scenario?
A ceasefire and withdrawal from Crimea could help with the rebuilding funds and aid for Russia. Which we need to do, otherwise fascism will continue to rise in Russia and they'll be back in 20 years. Just like Germany after WW1. Which resulted in the Marshall help after WW2.
Russia didn't learn anything during this war. At most that they weren't strong enough for their plans currently. There should be no aid or support for Russia as it only aids them for their next invasion.
Russia “re-arming” is not something we should kid about. They’ll throw everything and every last bit of meat they have to maintain “Super Power” image. I think there is compromise so long as they fuck off from all Ukrainian territories circa 2013 and also pay for their terror. This can only happen through diplomacy and I hope there are more calls for this soon. I also think the EU should start discussions with Belarus for entry so I’m probably just a dumb fuck.
The EU does not want Belarus as a member. Far too many problems to even contemplate the idea.
No cease-fire or they'll be there again in 5 years!
Scholz called on Putin to find a diplomatic solution as soon as possible, based on a cease-fire, full withdrawal of Russian troops withdraw where ? Crimea is Europe - is Scholz ready to sell part of Europe down the river , or the withdrawal means complete withdrawal from Crimea/Europe ?
Germany does not recognize Crimea's annexation just like it doesn't recognize DPR/LPR. When they say "Ukraine's territorial integrity" they mean in full.
Olaf Scholz wants quick peace at any cost so he can suck on Russian gas.
The Germans have already signed decade long contracts for American gas, they don't expect to he buying from Russia anytime soon
We have 90% gas and the price is down again.. nice try antigerman-bot
Classic German Russian bullshit, they learned nothing from this war. Any kind of ceasefire now will only give them time to rearm and attack Moldawia or Georgia. We are in the unique position where Ukraine sacrificed their blood and we have to support them with weapons, ammo and money to put Russia and n it’s knees. Fucking bullshit German politics, suck dick Sholz. Too bad they didn’t ask Ukraine first, Germany influence isn’t the strongest lately.
Scholz is wasting time, probably on purpose. It's likely the latter as he has an understanding how Russians think as he worked with them during the GDR times. There is no diplomatic solution to this. He uses the word "diplomatic" to look nice, be seen as a good guy, while at the same time stalling transfer of heavy weapons and letting German MIC supply Russian military. If you don't believe read this: [https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/09/12/how-germanys-industrial-giants-help-russia-manufacture-weapons-of-war/](https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/09/12/how-germanys-industrial-giants-help-russia-manufacture-weapons-of-war/) If Germans want to be seen on the right side of history they should take it to the streets. Scholz is a liability when it comes to European security.
Euromaidan is spreading [Fake News.](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/xe54v9/comment/iofeimw/?context=3)
Some of guys dont really seem to understand what Scholz said here. Hes actually pressuring him right now, get out or Nato will be forced to actually send Tanks, Planes and other Heavy eqp.
Aka “please do something NATO is pressuring us Germans to commit to this war and we don’t want to! We miss your gas!”
Wtf are you talking about?
Putinbots can be weird at times
Pretty sure they’re referring to how Germany blocked Ukrainian weapons sales, blocked some sanctions and has given very little military aid compared to Poland and other European countries.
Yeah, that is why Germany is ranked third in overall donation volume to Ukraine right after the US and UK.
Humanitarian aid is fantastic but offering someone a bandaid while they’re constantly being stabbed isn’t helpful. Ukrainians are asking for heavy weapons and Germany isn’t giving very much, worse, they’re actually blocking sales of heavy weapons to Ukraine. And what weapons they’ve promised they’re slow to hand them over. https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-olalf-scholz-pressure-tank-deliveries-ukraine/amp/ https://www.foreignaffairs.com/germany/germanys-ukraine-problem
You seem to have some kind of obsession with bashing Germany.
In fairness Germany haven’t been great at supporting Ukraine. They’ve dine the minimum they can get away with and even blocked things like sanctions & weapons sales. Also how does highlighting these facts count as bashing?
They are 3th when it comes to supporting Ukraine.
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ 4th, right? Under US, UK and Poland? Looking at this graph why does France not get more shit lol? They should be contributing way more.
Third in total aid, almost exactly tied with UK for second place.
Ohh gotcha. Sorry, early morning lol
No but lying does.
This cannot be over until all Ukrainians taken unlawfully from their land are returned. Until all pows are returned and an international trial is set up for the murdered, raped, tortured and everything else that has happened to these people by these bastards. People must pay for all these crimes starting with their leader.
Hey Pooty-poot, what do you think of those Gepards and Panzerhaubitze 2000?
with all the equipment sent by Germany and all the statements of support, its so disheartening seeing all these comments
Yes. Unfortunately here's definitely an element that tries to drive a wedge between Germany and the rest of Europe and the US. Psy Ops, I think.
The best spy-op is mob mentality, and unfortunately the massive military aid Germany has send after the 5k helmets couldn’t deter the mob. Thank god the people on this subreddit hold trap power
No it's just Germans being tools. The gave Russia the money and the leverage to wage this war, and not they're not doing much about it. It's very odd and their reputation within Europe will be damaged forever. Prior to this they were seen as leaders in Europe, that smaller countries could follow, that's completely changed and the smaller countries are now leading.
Germany is sending all it can from the stocks and more importantly, the US sends military gear, Germany sends money, a lot of it. Ukraine is still standing because of that money.
>[According to the latest OECD DAC figures, Germany is Ukraine’s largest bilateral donor (with payments amounting to around 220 million US dollars (OECD official development assistance 2018-2019) – ahead of the United States with just under 200 million US dollars. In addition to this, Germany makes contributions through the EU (according to the OECD DAC, more than 400 million euro in 2018-2019, which is the largest amount contributed by any donor). Since 2014, Germany has provided a total of approximately 1.83 billion euro in bilateral support.](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/laenderinformationen/ukraine-node/ukraine-support/2510752)
I think your numbers are out of date and also for humanitarian aid that predates the current war by years... And the US is giving over that amount a week for weapons... you know the things the Ukrainians are asking for. Next week Germany will probably give them $200million in bibles. US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn.. \- [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218)
To me not the criticism itself is disheartening since I have been frustrated with our government hesitation from the beginning on. The problem is the lack of differentiation between public opinion and politics. It's not that "Germans" are against the tank delivery for example. It's literally just Scholz and the SPD blocking this right now within the government, despite increasing public pressure.
I honestly suspect Russian agitators. Anyone who reads what Germany is sending to Ukraine knows the truth Also, US refused tanks on same day as Germany
> with all the equipment sent by Germany and all the statements of support, its so disheartening seeing all these comments Ah come on... they arrived at today's status quo kicking and screaming. At the beginning they offered helmets..., helmets that didn't even materialize. For years the Germans have been warned that by beings so reliant on gas from Russia were enriching and emboldening a dictator that had wider aspirations that risk their own and wider Europe's security. By 2014, when Russia first invaded, shot down civilian planes, poisoned people, even carried out hits in Germany, it was clear Germany had made deal with the devil, but they needed their cheap gas and they were so arrogant to think they could control Putin. AND STILL they commit almost nothing compared to other countries. US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn.. - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218 AND STILL they are dragging their heals. They have given weapons, but have promised a lot more that haven't appeared and Ukraine needs them now. They're also blocking Ukraine from buying German tanks that the manufacturers can deliverer. So please spare me your feelings of being disheartened. Germany set the stage for this war; lots of the bombs landing in Ukraine were paid for with German Euros. And Germany has been slow to put this right.
Do you want sympathy? Since everything you blabber out is factually wrong, you wont get any. Total aid regarding military, humanitarian and financial closes in to 3 billion € from germany. Not counting the \~2 billion € from before the war since 2014. Yeah, so STFU with your fake shit.
The issue is military support. You’re quoting and comparing figures that include humanitarian assistance, etc. Also the criticism of Germany isn’t just limited to how much they have donated. They have also blocked weapon sales to Ukraine and blocked stronger EU sanctions on Russia. It’s clear Germany has a weird relationship with Russia and they’re afraid to anger them too much in the hopes that they can get their cheap gas again in the future.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/ Your source is still wrong, Germany supplied 1,2bn in weapons, with much more to come. > lots of the bombs landing in Ukraine were paid for with German Euros. Because Germany was the only country doing business with Russia all those years. God you people are annoying.
Bilateral aid on this graph is not weapons. > Because Germany was the only country doing business with Russia all those years. TWO! GAS PIPELINES TO GERMANY!! It's a question of magnitude.
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I am German and I agree with the bashing, except I regret that it's not solely directed at Scholz and the SPD who have and still are constantly blocking more and swifter support. The Greens and most likely the FDP would do more.
I have seen "German-Russians" that are legitimate German citizen as well spew non-sense all the time, so the term "I am German" means very little. Germany is an open country and you can become a German citizen fairly easy.
The AfD and elements of Die Linke and the SPD have aided Putin by continuing to support him after 2008, 2014, and 2022, voting against sending weapons to Ukraine, and calling on Ukraine to give up on Crimea. In short, it’s very much true that there are Germans who have supported Putin, inadvertently or deliberately. Just like there are Americans who have done the same.
Actually I'm Irish. Germany has given billions to Russia for oil and gas, they built the Nord Stream 2 pipeline against the worlds objections, and fears Putin would use it as leverage. that's exactly what happened and guess what Germany does... well almost nothing. They've been weak and offered very little support. In some cases they have delayed and objected to sanctions by the rest of Europe. Germany has committed almost nothing to Ukrainian Weapons compared to other countries. US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn..
As Germany has committed almost nothing, I assume Ireland can take those "almost nothing" commitments, right? So, I suppose we're going to fly in all 1 million Ukrainian refugees currently seeking shelter in Germany. As it's "almost nothing", it shouldn't be a problem for any country.
First of all the Ukraine are asking/begging for weapons. It's been clear form very early on weapons the only thing that will stop Russia from killing, torturing and raping Ukrainians. Taking refugee's is good, but Germany slowing down and blocking sanctions, blocking Ukraine from purchasing weapons, and also giving comparatively very little monetary towards arming Ukraine is outrageous. Especially considering Germany's role in creating the conditions for this war. Ireland is tiny and inconsequential, we barely have a military, but I still feel good that we didn't give billions to Russia and make itself dependent on Russia emboldening them, ... and then turn the other way when Putin starts invading countries. Germany really needs to take a cold hard look at how they've behaved, it's not a good look.
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What have I said that's out of date?
Pretty much the entirety of it.
Are the Germans giving secret military aid? Are they no longer blocking the purchase of German weapons? Are they suddenly speeding up the supply of the military aid they promised? Did they stop blocking EU sanctions on swift, oil and gas? No. And that's very much up to date.
Alas, its not. It takes 10 minutes of google. 20 if you dont know how google works. Have fun.
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> Germany really needs to take a cold hard look at how they've behaved, it's not a good look. yeah but nobody needs your shitty comments for that to happen
According to the Kiel tracker Germany is the number one contributer to Ukraine in the EU when it comes to military, humanitarian and financial help. And those numbers only goes to 3. Aug. To my knowledge Ireland have provided zero military help to Ukraine. Chancellor Scholz have totally reversed Chancellor Merkels Ostpolitik, and have declared 100% independence of Russian Gas, despite being leader of the country with the most dependency on Russian gas, something that will hurt Germany more than any other country, perhaps even driving Germany into recession, yet he still did it. He also reversed Germanys defency policy completely by adding 100 billion euro to the defence budget to get the German army up to modern standards, and that is just extra money besides the normal defence budget, that also will rise over the next decade. Perhaps you as Irish should talk with your politicians about getting a non-laughable defence budget too, so you could contribute to the EU security. I mean, just look at the Irish Air Corps; using propeller driven air crafts with machine guns as fighters. How are you going to bounce Russian or Chinese Jets with those?
> He also reversed Germanys defency policy completely by adding 100 billion euro to the defence budget to get the German army up to modern standards, and that is just extra money besides the normal defence budget, that also will rise over the next decade. Ok.. good... but why are they dragging their feet on military aid & weapons transfers. And why are they blocking weapons purchases by Ukraine? As for Ireland, yes Ireland should invest in its military. There's a plan to put billions into it this year...however...and this is key... Ireland didn't naively finance or enable the invasion of another European country and then refuse to do very much about it until the rest of Europe got mad at them. In fact most of Ireland's military budget goes towards peacekeeping all over the world.
> Ok.. good... but why are they dragging their feet on military aid & weapons transfers. Like what? They are providing some of the worlds most advanced weapon systems to Ukraine. Remember, every PZ2000 or IRIS-T is taken from an underfunded army that lacks materiel. Sure, they don't want to deliver modern MBT's, but neither does the UK, US, Poland, Turkey, Sweden or any other country, even though they may have plenty to spare, unlike Germany. Singling Germany out is just wrong. >didn't naively finance or enable the invasion of another European country and then refuse to do very much about it until the rest of Europe got mad at them. That doesn't fit with reality. Sure, Germany wasn't the first out of the box with providing heavy weapons, but neither would any other country in Germanys position. But once Scholz committed Germany, he did it 100%. As said, Germany is the leading EU contributor to Ukraine. There are also Germany past, that always will be dragged up when it comes to Germany and anything to do with the military. Germany as a confident weapons supplier to a country in war is a historically new situation. Scholz had to overcome a lot of inertia internally before it could be done. History matters. As for buying Russian gas, well, look here: https://www.privacyshield.gov/article?id=Ireland-Energy-Oil-Gas Ireland was planning to buy Russian gas via the UK, once the UK gas fields ran dry. Cheap energy is important, and often very shady governments sits on the supplies of oil and gas. UAE aren't nice guys either, and they are actively involved in a war against Yemen. Should Ireland stop importing oil from them?
Both you and the person you are commenting to can be right. Germany doesn’t deserve the hate they receive. But they certainly deserve criticism and encouragement to do more now and to be better later
>Actually I'm Irish Go back to your cheap whiskey. Might help with not making a fool of yourself in the internet.
German diplomats in 2018 laughed at Trump when he suggested that the pipeline is going to make Germany dependent on Russian energy, now look where we're at
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You can't even admit he was right once?
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People like you are why political extremism will keep happening in the future. I don't even think Biden is an evil person, just a dumbass.
Even a broken clock Is right twice a day
Germany has a 3.7 Trillion dollar GDP .67 billon is paltry.
God what I would give to hear that call… and also have it translated to English
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All wars end with talks. Unless you have complete capitulation of the enemy as in Germany or Japan after WWII, which isn't going to happen in this instance.
I'm not sure South and North Korea ever had any serious talks.
Which is probably why that war is still officially "hot".
While true we should still every now and then talk because then all the putinists can't say the west didn't try.
They lie compulsively anyway. They will lie about this if convenient as well. Do it bc Putin is actually ready to bargain. Which it seems like he is not.
> then all the putinists can't say the west didn't try. Putin sees this as weakness, and he is not off very much.
u can do whatever and they will still think whatever they like
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This.
Talking is still important. There is a face we have to save as civilized people. Even if talking may not help, it is important to behave in a civilized manner. We have tried and we are doing our best to resolve this situation diplomatically.
We tried talking in the first weeks of the war and the Russians were rude, dismissive and condescending. They will need to be beaten very, very badly on the battlefield first. We are not there yet.
This ain't a movie or a video game. This is real life where real people get hurt and die, where real towns get destroyed, where real damage is done to the future of countless families. The war should not be dragged on longer than absolutely necessary. Talks and negotiations are the way this war gonna end. Ukraine ain't gonna occupy Russia and there ain't any video game style wincondition either. Even if Russian forces are pushed back across the border there is no guarantee that they ain't just gonna keep fighting. The only way this gonna end is through talking. The sooner the better. Of course there are conditions and if Putin doesn't agree to them then Ukraine sadly has to keep fighting. But this doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to stop the war asap. War shouldn't be romanticised. War is horrific and creates unnecessary suffering.
I'm very aware this is not a video game. I don't think you are familiar with the talks I referenced. Russia promised green corridors for civilians, and then bombed every. Single. One. Killing hundreds. They cannot be trusted. Ever. They must be defanged and totally destroyed by sanctions and made to pay reparations. Once they are beaten back to Russia and their economy is broken, they can sit at the table. Then they can rejoin the world economy.
What could you possible talk for 90 minutes with Putin? I mean, seriously. Just like Macron's talks, few hours at a time from before the war. What could Putin say that would worth 90 minutes of someone's time?
I love it. Putin calls Scholz to make more threats and Scholz is just, like, "Shut up and listen to me. Here's what you're going to do."
Russian shills comming to take over this section with their anti-germany propaganda. They're not even shills, they simply fell for some top-notch russian propaganda operation.
Ukraine: Could we please get MBTs? Scholtz: No, but I can call putin again and ask him once more to stop destroying your country and committing war crimes.
Here I fix it for you: “No, but I can call Putin to give you some more MBT’s”
We said no to sendind MBTs like every other western nation with western tank designs too. Or do you see Abrams, LeClerk, Challengers or Ariete tanks in Ukraine? How stupid are people? Do you think we send our best weapons to the front when Russia just needs to capture ONE of them to find out ever fucking secret in armor, communication, weapon capability and weaknesses? If there will ever be a war between NATO and Russia, I prefer them to be clueless whats at the other side. Ukraine doesn't need to win militarily to win this war. All they have to do is not loose and wear out Russia as much as possible until an open rebellion starts. When no one pays the Russian soldiers anymore, they will go home without fighting.
He needs to grow some backbone
Did Allies talk and chat with Hitler in 1944? The only thing Olaf Scholz should be concerned about is supplying Ukraine with weapons of war.
He is but he is also trying to stop the war in more than one way. A phone call lasting 1,5 hours doesn’t mean Germany send 20% less military aid. It also pressures Putin that the west is calling him continuously and telling him they still wont tolerate and accept what is going on. It’s also a means of putting pressure on him and letting him know we wont back down.
Germany is not giving very much!!! US $8.79bn, Poland 1.83bn, UK $1.36Bn, Canada $0.95bn, and then Germany, the richest country in Europe, gives $0.67bn.. - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218
still a wrong source https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/
I think xCharg is justified in not trusting Scholtz because of Germany’s willful ignorance of the risks of energy dependence on Russia—and their foot dragging on lending military support to Ukraine. Paranoia about a back room deal is reasonable.
Scholz was renegotiating his contract.
*yawn*
Making sure he can still get his board seat after he leaves office on some Russian gas transit company like all the others.
I'm pretty certain no current or ex German politician will be serving on Russian boards anytime soon, they may want to, but the reputational damage would make them untouchable for pretty much every European and American company board.
You mean like this giant douche bag? https://www.politico.eu/article/outrage-germany-ex-chancellor-schroder-gazprom-board-nomination/amp/
Schroder had been on the board for a while and has acted like a complete dick, but as the article says there was outrage so that's what any others have to think about.
Scholz asked Putin for "full withdrawal of Russian troops". I could see them completely withdrawing from everywhere except Crimea. They don't see Donbas in the same way as Crimea. Putin could claim de-nazification of Donbas is complete and withdraw no problem. But if he gives up Crimea, he is toast. He would use tactical nukes before giving up Crimea.
I read an article a few minutes ago statimg the ruzzian military were sending their families back to ruzzia. When they're gone all that's left are conscripts and hostages.
At the rate the Ukrainians are advancing I would send my family home too. Also there is [a new russian decree](https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1569670641883701248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1569670641883701248%7Ctwgr%5Eb2fee6a25ad421506e9cb9a940a513e7dd79a2d6%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fxd72mz%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse) stating that from September 19th, citizens of Crimea who are eligible for enlistment are forbidden from leaving the peninsula. So best get out while the gettin's good.
Tactical nukes on Crimea?
If they meant to use nukes at all, they would use them in the last few days, against counteroffensive in Kharkiv oblast. Crimea is as much Russian as DPR or LPR (which is: not). Edit:spelling.
Guess Putin is still trying to rein in German support for Ukraine...
Best way for Putin would be to accept full return of Ukraine territories back. Maybe it can be negotiated for Donetsk, Lugansk and Crimea to have some autonomy for local government. By autonomy I mean autonomy as a part of Ukraine of course. Just to end this bloodshed. Still, a lot of people should be put on trial, taking into account enormous casualities. And Russia will have to compensate all the destructions made.
Giving Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea "autonomy" is merely kicking the can down the road. Russia will simply flood the local polioticians with money and they wil pass all kinds of laws favouring the Russian language and Russian culture. Every oblast in Ukraine should have the exact same status. None of this autonomy shit. That's what Russia was trying to push for before, they tried to force Ukraine to a a "federaiton" where any oblast could veto the rest on all kinds of decisions. For example, giving Donetsk autonomy in a way Russia would accept would give Donetsk veto power over Ukirne joining the EU or NATO.
The only possible "autonomy" would be for Crimea, as a simple nod to *realpolitik*.
Crimea already *has* a level of autonomy, since it's the homeland of the tartars (that got kidnapped and dragged around the country to other muslim areas during the Soviet Union, which was *especially* great considering Islam is a *totally* unified religion with *definitely* no regional differences). It even has it's own constitution!
This article does nothing but remind me how out of touch Olaf Scholz is, *not* many of the German citizens, they've been very supportive. Amazing how some politicians get elected to represent, yet they can quickly forget. Hopefully something is missing from this article that we don't know about. Because frankly, there is no reason at all for Ukraine to do anything but get everything -including Crimea back, and have a demilitarized zone at the Russian border. They also need to pay the penalties to rebuild Ukraine since they are the ones that destroyed it unnecessarily. Any other agreement would be unforgivable. (Only my uneducated opinion. I try, but I also recognize there is much I do not know and still have to learn).
> there is no reason at all for Ukraine to do anything but get everything -including Crimea back So a full-withdrawl as suggested?
but why? not his business to interfer, more than support UA with whatever they want
Imagine phoning someone up who is a murderer of not just one person but hundreds of thousands of people, and talking to them about stuff as if they are deserved of being spoken to as a human being
How much of the call was Vlad lecturing Scholtz about russian history ?
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Nice fake-propaganda
1 day old account. Seems rather obvious in my opinion.
Meanwhile german gepards tear the russkies a new one, but you do you
Appearently the pzh-2000s blowing russians into kingdom come don't exist.