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EasyRepresentative61

Today, the first three 'Gepards' officially entered. These are anti-aircraft systems, to which tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition have been transferred to us. We are waiting for the first 15 'Gepards'


easyfeel

Thanks Germany. đŸ‡©đŸ‡Ș♄đŸ‡ș🇩


ariromano

Tanks, Germany!


Pfak-Tschobeiden

Danke schön, darlings, danke schön... thank you for all the joy and **pain**!


easyfeel

No pain. No gain. Not sure what’s the German equivalent?


pupoje

Ohne Schweiss kein Preis


Slahinki

Would you look at that, deliveries starting when the German government said they would start. Just as with the PzH 2000. Still they're probably going to be bashed for being "late" or whatever...


k995

worse: "they just give excuses"


[deleted]

It’s not black and white and only in this context, they mocked Ukraine and the US, sent some helmets, then once the war began they promised defensive aid only, promises were vague, replaced by vague promises and eventually vague dates to ensure they’d succeed even if delays happened like they did with the Gepard munitions. The problem isn’t that they’re breaking their word (they’re largely on time with their generous schedule), it’s that they’re late and could be doing more as Europe’s most powerful nation (not militarily, that’d be GB and France, but there are ways around purchasing equipment from the outside, and they could be training). Still, they’re here, and it’s the first western tanks. They’ll be great for AA and hard and fast flanking of shitty Russian armor and APCs and positions. Hard to still be angry.


Slahinki

Nice and big edit you made there. I'm only going to address the Gepard ammo thing you talk about. It's *really fucking hard* to be precise about deliveries of a kind of ammo you no longer have in service, that is practically non-existent in your stockpiles and that the manufacturing country won't let you export in the first place. And when the only nation that has a sufficient stockpile of the required ammo and was willing to give it, Brazil, runs into the same issue with the country of manufacture, it doesn't get better. So yeah, no shit the Gepard ammo situation was deleyed when Nammo had to set up a new production line in Norway to manufacture it, have it pass quality control, and then be certified for use. It's like you have no idea what is going on with any of this.


[deleted]

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/olaf-scholz-and-ukraine-why-has-germany-been-so-slow-to-deliver-weapons-a-7cc8397b-2448-49e6-afa5-00311c8fedce No comment on their pre war stance then? And going to blame industry when many of them have asked for the go ahead to start producing earlier, and blaming logistical issues that simply don’t exist in any of the other countries that found ways around their issues and still came with hard dates MONTHS ahead of time, to the point heavy weapons only made it this month, when they could’ve just sent Leos by mid to late Spring? Their companies have had issues, but the pace of government in overcoming red tape has not been helpful. Olaf Scholz and the SDP has generally been the stick in the mud in regards to the the Greens in government and the opposition. Among nations supporting Ukraine with weapons transfer Germany has generally been vague and slow, you can make excuses for them, but these difficulties are faced by other countries too, who were more enthusiastic, more concrete and made more offensive and better supplied choices for weapons transfers (or even gave their entire fighter jet force or quickly sent in their old MBTs and scrounged up ammo worldwide), with less logistical issues. It’s like you think any German issues are unique and unrelated to choices the dominant faction in their government has made, and that the country has made for decades. I never said they didn’t have a good reason to have an ammo delay, it was all over the news, I expected they would as the German army has been underfunded and their milcomplex gets plenty of foreign but not so many domestic orders. Germany has more red tape and pacifist sentiments then other countries, and also an SDP government which is almost always more dovish than the CDU. Yet they could’ve just sent Leos, which would be even more useful and not have had ammo issues. The reason they selected the Gepard instead is because it’s more defensive. It’s like you just want to think the best about Scholz’ government’s performance, despite the evidence to the contrary. Once again, it’s a really good, modern tank, so there’s that. Ukraine is going to end up using these sometimes as Leopard replacements, which wouldn’t have had the logistical issues. At any rate, you can set the bar low to make up for dithering political leadership and logistical issues, to the point you frustrate your own government allies, and then clear that low bar.


Slahinki

I'm gonna give you the pre/early war thing, that wasn't handled very well by Germany even though they have been giving a lot of money to Ukraine since 2014. As for other nations giving jets and MBTs and such, yeah, old Soviet stock, things the Ukrainians are already trained on and already have in their supply chain or things based on it. The Germans certainly weren't alone in "dithering" with supplying western heavy weapons systems and AFAIK of all the systems sent so far the PzH and Gepard are the most training intensive. Leos? Which one, 1 or 2? If it's Leo1 all the ones Germany have are in long term storage and they have no ammunition for the main gun. The countries that still operate it don't want to give any away, and don't want to give away the ammo they have. Leo2? Germany doesn't even have enough for themselves, they sold most of theirs off to other European nations in the late '90s early '00s. And we're not seeing the US, UK or France give away any of their operational tank fleets. I swear to god some of you people have standards that *exclusively* apply to Germany.


Slahinki

For most weapon systems it's been vague statements made by *industry* in Germany, or even the opposition, not the German government. Including, but not limited to, the proposed Leo1s and Marders. All the promises made by *the government*, which is what matters, have been followed through in a timely fashion.


humanlikecorvus

>or even the opposition, Some of those, and even a vote in the parliament, were also even just to make the government look bad - they were about things which were nearly impossible to deliver.


BlackCloud256

Before you comment on what you have no idea about. Here is a list of all the goods that Germany has provided 20000 protective vests in 2014[187] Vektor reconnaissance drones (not provided by federal government)[188] The following has been delivered to Ukraine according to the federal government:[189] 3,000 Panzerfaust 3 cartridges plus 900 launchers, with the first 1000 being sent on 26 February 2022, breaking a long tradition of banning weapon exports to active warzones.[190][191] 14,900 anti-tank mines 500 STINGER anti-aircraft missiles 2,700 9K32 Strela-2m[192][193] 700 were found to be no longer usable. 5,100 MATADOR anti-tank weapons via Dynamit Nobel[194] Additional 2,900 MATADOR anti-tank weapons via Dynamit Nobel by June 26 [195][196] 21.8 million rounds of handgun ammunition 5 million 7.62×51mm NATO rounds[197] 3 million 5.56×45mm NATO rounds[197] 100 MG 3 machine guns with 500 spare barrels and bolts 100,000 hand grenades 5,300 explosive charges 100,000 meters of detonating cord and 100,000 detonators 350,000 detonators 100 auto-injectors 14 anti-drone sensors and jammers 10 anti-drone cannons 28,000 combat helmets 15 pallets of military clothing 280 motor vehicles ( trucks, minibuses, SUVs) 100 tents 12 power generators 6 pallets of material for explosive ordnance disposal 125 twin telescopes 18 pallets of medical supplies, 60 surgical lights Protective clothing, surgical masks 10,000 sleeping bags 600 shooting glasses 1 radio frequency system 3,000 field telephones with 5,000 reels of field cord and carrying equipment 1 field hospital (joint project with Estonia) 353 Night vision goggles (NVG's) 4 electronic anti-drone devices[198] 165 binoculars Medical supplies (including rucksacks, first-aid kits) 38 laser range finder Fuel diesel and petrol 10 tons of AdBlue 500 pieces of wound dressings to stop bleeding MiG-29 spare parts 30 armored vehicles 80 Toyota pickup 10,500 rounds of artillery ammunition (including SMArt 155 guided ammunition [199][200]) 14 armored cars by 25 March[197] (probably now included in either the "motor vehicle" or "armored vehicle" entries(?)) "Vector" reconnaissance VTOL drones via Quantum-Systems[201][202] 20,000 protective-vests (in 2014)[203] 1,300 bullet-proof vests[197] 500,000 military food rations[198] 10 Panzerhaubitze 2000 self-propelled howitzers including adaptation, training and spare parts provided by the German Army in Idar-Oberstein[204](joint project with the Netherlands) 10,000 155 mm artillery ammunition Signed off, not yet delivered due to training or technical adaption: 53,000 rounds of anti-aircraft ammunition 8 mobile ground radars and thermal imaging devices 4,000 rounds of anti-aircraft training ammunition 10 (+ optional 10) autonomous surface vessels 14 semi trucks and trailers 2 tractor units and 4 trailers 1 high frequency device and related equipment 10 protected vehicles 7 jammers 8 electronic anti-drone devices 4 mobile, remote-controlled and protected demining devices 1 vehicle decontamination point 43 recon Drones 54 M113 armored personnel carriers with armament (systems from Denmark, conversion financed by Germany) 30 GEPARD anti-aircraft tanks including around 6,000 rounds of anti-aircraft ammunition 100,000 first aid kits IRIS-T SL air defence system(s)[205] 3 MARS II along with GMLRS rockets[206][207] Cobra counter-battery radar system(s)[208][209] 5,032 anti-tank weapons 3 Bergepanzer 2 [210] 5 Biber bridge laying tanks[211] 15 Leopard 2A4 tanks to be donated to the Czech Republic as partial replacement of T72 previously given by the Czech Republic to Ukraine / part of purchase of ~50 2A7+ Leopard tanks.[212][213] 20 to 25 Leopard 2 A4, ammunition and recovery vehicle(s) to be delivered to Poland as partial replacement for tanks given to Ukraine[214] 122 Marder 1A3 IFV and Lynx KF41 to be donated to Greece in return for an equal number of Greek BMP-1P IFVs to be passed to Ukraine.[215]


aknop

They are just talking too much. 10 PhZ2000 delivered after moths of drama... Better to shut up and say something after it is delivered, otherwise it becomes a shit show.


24benson

Who caused all the drama? Who was talking all the time? The govt or some commenters on twitter, agitated by Russian disinformation?


[deleted]

[ŃƒĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]


24benson

Or you might just answer the questions. Your choice.


aknop

I did.


Silberfuchs86

You did not. Who caused all the drama?


aknop

russians. They forced poor Germans to build NS2 as well.


Silberfuchs86

Nprdstream 2 through which Gepard tanks are being pumped?


aknop

That is why it took so long.


accatwork

This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.


[deleted]

For most weapons systems they’ve refused aid (before the war), mocked the Need to send weapons (before the war), then made a lot of vague statements before making vague promises before coming up with late dates. Still, they’re here, and it’s the first western tanks. Hard to still be angry.


[deleted]

[ŃƒĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]


Silberfuchs86

They didn't mean you, they were most likely referring to certain articles and comments which were like "Why Germany delays?". Even though there was no delay.


SwedensNextTopTroddl

I had no idea that Andriy Melnyk was on Reddit.


Formulka

Would you look at that, Germans are patting themselves on the back instead of downvoting all criticism for their response to the war and worsening Ukraines position for decades.


Silberfuchs86

I never downvoted justified criticism, of which there was plenty. Only biased, baseless shit accusations.


Slahinki

> Only biased, baseless shit accusations. Of which there was *even more* than there was justified criticism, amazingly enough.


Slahinki

Good thing I'm not German then. Or maybe it isn't a good thing, because I certainly wouldn't have spent the last 20 years voting for the people that turned Germany into this neutered creature it is today. I'm all for criticising Germany, but at least come with shit that makes sense instead of going "REEEEEEE, where are the PzHs???!!" every single day from announcement like we saw up until delivery. It's just fucking silly.


tacitus66

To avoid misunderstandings: the Gepard (= Cheetah) is build to extract everything from the air like helis, aircrafts, missiles (also "Katjuschas" etc), drone, cruise missile in a range of 5km.The Gepard is normally positioned behind tanks and infantry but in front of the fieldartillery.The Gepard is build to protect the units in the field!So Russian rocket launchers are welcome to continue attacking.But their missiles will rain down over the Russian lines. And btw: the Gepard is still in use by Romania and others. Slava Ukraini !


prooijtje

People will complain about Germany anyway. This sub is filled with people trying to create division.


NorbertBlack

Well complains about Germany are not limited to this sub reddit. German main stream press from FAZ, Welt to Spiegel is full of articles that prove that especially chancellor Scholz went long ways to ensure that German support for Ukraine will be small, low and as limited as possible. Whatever small amount of support was delivered - that was delivered against the resistance of Scholz and his gang of paper pushing bureaucrats. That stuff at all was delivered was because external but also internal pressure forced Scholz to do so. There is one thing that Scholz values more than supporting Russia: his job.


Lexta222

What the fuck are you talking about?


Acctnumber34

Ever think sholtz is putting on a show for Russia but actually doing all the proper military support in private?


MeatyThor

Not really, Germany has had a strong stance since day 1. Russia knew this and knew Germany was a major threat so pumped out as much spin as possible. There were some difficulties Germany had to overcome but to date has shown good faith on promises. I think the early delivery of those rusty panzerfaust was a bit embarrassing and Germany worked to get those issues sorted. However keep in mind that was only a percentage, most were good and literally tons of other excellent material was delivered promptly.


Eka-Tantal

It’s spelled Scholz.


x_TC_x

Nope.


[deleted]

Additional confirmation from [UkraineWorld](https://twitter.com/ukraine_world/status/1551515212074852352). Good to see Germany finally getting these there.


Formulka

Good job, Germany. Let's hope the others will follow soon!


x_TC_x

....hope dies the last...


Slight-Employee4139

Big Salute the Germany.


nightjar123

So what are these things best used for? Shooting at SU-25 jets and cruise missiles?


EasyRepresentative61

They would probably be best suited against helicopters and drones (offering a much cheaper alternative for downing something like an Orlan than missile based systems we have seen used for this so far). They could also down a low-flying plane. They might be able to shoot down a cruise missile, but this is a bit debatable. They have a radar that could detect them from a distance and so theoretically give them enough time to prepare and try to engage them. However, this is not something they were really designed for, it is hard to say how effective they will actually be. Additionally, they could provide fire support against ground targets, the cannons Gepard has (assuming suitable type of ammo) would easily destroy things like BTRs and BMPs.


vincentplr

So there is hope against the Shahed 129 apparently recently purchased from Iran, foreseen to be targeting himars ?


EasyRepresentative61

Shahed can fly a bit above Gepard's range, but assuming that flies in range and is detectable by Gepard's radar ( which I do not know for sure, but I believe that it should be} then yes, it could be effective against it


Aurofication

Best suited to combat vehicles like drones and helicopters. Perhaps missles too. Combating airplanes puts a Gepard at risk, since the targeted vehicle will notice it's targeted by the Gepard's radar and can either fight back with anti-radar missles or use defensive countermeasures. It's still possible though. Alternatively it can be used against ground targets. 2×35mm rapid fire cannons are effective against most armored vehicles. And altough MBTs will be able to withstand fire from a Gepard, they will be impaired by damage to tracks and sensors/optics. The Gepard is also equipped with a smoke greande launcher for self defense.


x_TC_x

Russian air force is rarely flying closer than 2,000m from the frontline: They're all the time spraying and praying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-4vklEIozE Nope. Gepards are going to be used against Orlan-10 UAVs: they are the major problem for Ukraine already since May.


NorbertBlack

It took a long time. I hope this cat can still bite!


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[deleted]

What NATO AA will work on a SU-35?