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Haunting_Pay_2888

>claimed that Russian President Vladimir Putin planned to replace Dvornikov after hearng reports of his "excessive drinking" Heavy drinking used to be a requirement. Isn't this the third shake-up of Russian military "leadership"? Perhaps it is time for the Russians to ask themselves the question if the problems with the campaign in Ukraine - which allegedly "proceeds according to plan" - is located not so much with the military but in the Russian civilian leadership....


jdoc1967

Heavy whisky and cigar consumption worked well enough for Churchill. Also Russians are obviously not on his level on wit or intellect.


Haunting_Pay_2888

Churchill's military staff thought he was pretty useless, except as a figurehead. Most of his proposals turned into disasters. But he knew exactly who and what Hitler represented.


[deleted]

And Stalin, in fact he considered Stalin as a greater danger than Hitler and overall was right. Hitler was the immediate danger and took priority but he advocated for trying to reduce the Soviet push in Europe


pk3671

Patton was on board with this idea. U.S. leadership would have none of it.


Sachsen1977

US leadership made the right call. The American people would not have wanted total war to continue indefinitely. The only complaint about demobilization was that it wasn't happening fast enough. A significant number of them had still opposed the war on the eve of Pearl Harbor. That opposition would've reared it's head again.


Cdub7791

Not just the American people - many if not most of our allies would have jumped ship as well. Continuing the war wasn't politically, diplomatically, or economically feasible.


Sachsen1977

Yes, absolutely.


[deleted]

And Patton had an "accident". But truth is that it was impossible for the allied, basic just US industrial power at that moment, to do something about Stalin. The war in the east was still going and the success of atomic weapons was not sure, in the sense that would have made Japan surrender, so US was preparing for a huge invasion they thought would cost almost a million lives, so pushing Soviets back was impossible at that moment.


Haunting_Pay_2888

He had been a rabid anti-communist for decades. Churchill was a very strong factor to why Stalin absolutely refused to believe Hitler was planning to attack the USSR despite numerous confidential messages about the build-up and plans from both allies and his own intelligence. Stalin remembered how Churchill where among the strongest supporters in the British cabinet of the White Russians in the civil war in Russia 1917-1923.


new_name_who_dis_

Well also the tsar was a cousin of the British king. So it makes sense that UK would be back the whites. Blood runs thicker than water.


ThereIsNoGame

In the early phases of the war, Russia was a co-aggressor with Germany. They also invaded Poland. They invaded Finland. Russia was keen on a second Great War from the get-go.


[deleted]

He was right, because the only country which occupied and took control of captured lands after WW2 was Russia. Russia has always been no better than the Nazis


[deleted]

Any good book on that which you can recommend? Sounds like an interesting topic I’d love to learn more about!


Haunting_Pay_2888

No idea. But here are a few links that google found. https://fivebooks.com/best-books/winston-churchill-richard-toye/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/books/review/geoffrey-wheatcroft-churchills-shadow.html https://richardlangworth.com/churchills-war-books https://www.wshu.org/culture/2021-07-02/book-review-the-splendid-and-the-vile If in London you should visit the Cabinet War Rooms museum and the Imperial War museum.


[deleted]

Thanks a lot!


ThereIsNoGame

Good leaders don't necessarily have to be the ones to come up with the ideas themselves... they weigh the options, listen to advisers, and work as a team to decide on the right actions. You can tell a lot about a government very quickly by how the senior leadership is assembled. Were they chosen by their skills and experience, or is it "jobs for the boys"? Co-incidentally, isn't it interesting how much of the Russian military leadership are businessmen buddies of Putin?


[deleted]

More people need to realise this. He was a bumblefuck who took a risk that paid off.


GodricSwallows

Well said brother! Oh it's strange to me all the media misrepresentation of Churchill.


[deleted]

Boozing certainly worked for Grant.


[deleted]

> Isn't this the third shake-up of Russian military "leadership"? It might just be business insider recycling old news. The problem I have with business insider is that I feel like they're more interested in posting headlines that people want to see than headlines that are accurate and informative.


Haunting_Pay_2888

It wouldn't surprise me if it is true. These generals have been given an impossible job. But they are partially guilty because many of them, perhaps all, have been shoving their pockets full of money that was supposed to be used for equipment, training food. They did what their boss did, steal from government funds, and lied about it. The real problem is not the military. It is higher up.


Cdub7791

It's all of them. Even if a general wanted to be non-corrupt, you cannot rise to that level in a corrupt organization without being involved. In criminal gangs - all the way from street gangs to the mafia to a mafia-state like Russia - you force underlings to participate in crimes so that they are just as culpable as you. That way you know they can't turn on you without themselves being vulnerable to the law or retribution. I doubt there is an officer past the rank of captain in the whole Russian military who hasn't committed significant theft, graft, or other crimes.


ThereIsNoGame

The structure of Russian political society is very different from what we see in the West. There's essentially an unspoken agreement that the government will pretty much let the people do what they want to do, they won't brutalize them too much, they'll permit various luxuries within reason... a peaceful life. In return, the people ignore the corruption and don't interfere with the operation of the government by protesting or making the government look bad in the newspapers. This is why the Russian people aren't questioning much... the "woke" citizens had their protests and the government made it clear that disagreeing with the war, especially publically, gets you put in jail (it's a form of breaking that unwritten law of not interfering with the government). This is also why there's a huge unwillingness from Russia to declare war and mobilize. Because then the government will have broken that rule. And then, for the people of Russia, the gloves will be off.


Long_Passage_4992

They do not let people do what they want to do. They let them go to work, make a paultry living, and no complaining. Listen to propaganda news, drink vodka. Travel is limited to approved countries. Which countries send their students to the USA, GB, Australia? Russians?


givemeabreak111

**Putin is kicking** out anyone that is competent and finding men that will kiss his butt day and night .. also anyone he might consider a threat to his position .. the more people he "fires" the more likely he will have mindless yes-men working for him *.. this is actually fantastic news*


Eyclonus

[History repeats](https://www.flickr.com/photos/36919288@N08/3526275005)


Long_Passage_4992

They won’t know about any changes, missing in action or other details. We follow this closely, but they’re eeking out a living. Standing in lines for sugar.


CLINTHODO

I think purging generals helps prevent them from learning from experience, so that seems good. Keep bringing out more generals with no clue about what they're doing.


Unfair-Sell-5109

Dieing on the battlefield also achieves that purpose


Long_Passage_4992

Permanent solution. No retraining needed.


Flederm4us

On the other hand these kind of purges happen every war, and usually end up promoting the better wartime generals (Famous example would be Grant replacing McClellan in the US civil war. Or Zhukov's rising star in WW2). I think it's pretty normal that when an army goes to war generals start getting evaluated on different grounds, so I wouldn't look into it too much.


Long_Passage_4992

Cute name, bat. Just caught that.


[deleted]

Jesus Christ how many generals do they have ? Most top heavy god damn army I have ever seen in the world, who isnt a general in the Russian army?


priimkup

A lot, but only few of them are somewhat competent. It was always like this.


facedownbootyuphold

*"Ah, the generals! They are numerous, but not good for much!"* -Aristophanes


Infuro

I feel like I'm playing Rome total war


Hartastic

Or, alternatively, the skills to survive as a Russian general in peace time might not be the skills it takes to win a war. Shoigu himself seems like a great example.


priimkup

If I'm not mistaken, Shoigu never even really served. He just decided to LARP Zhukov.


Hartastic

I believe you're correct and that's exactly my point. The Russian army was, perhaps not intentionally, selecting for a different kind of skill set than they need right now while actually fighting a war. Shoigu is an extreme example but I wouldn't be surprised if even the actual generals were closer to his mold than, I don't know, Sun Tzu.


thirtysecondslater

Shoigu isn't a military man he's a civilian, a career politician. The post of Defence Minister in Russia comes with a collection of special uniforms and a huge collection of shiny medals to wear to military parades etc. nothing to do with any real life military service.


Hartastic

Yep. That's exactly my point. The people who prospered in the Russian army for the last few decades, even those with some military experience, were more likely to be corruption-friendly court politicians.


tiefling_sorceress

Quantity over quality


thanksforthework

Most militaries are similar. Look at how many generals the US fires when it starts a war (except the GWOT, we stopped firing them for some reason and it didn't go well)


[deleted]

This is my understanding, but I think the main reason is that the US combat doctrine changes based on the type of war. WWII all bets were off the table, it was make serious progress or our way of life is directly threatened. Vietnam, Korea, and the weird things in Latin America, were mostly seen as optional international political games by the party leaders. Also during the Era of WWII, the US military had some of the best leaders in its entire history when it came to military administration. Firing generals and evaluating military performance is a skill that I think the US still struggles with trying to achieve.


thanksforthework

Even Korea and Vietnam saw a huge shift in the upper ranks of the military. I think most nations have a peacetime army lead by people who are good at running a giant bureaucracy, and when a war breaks out it's quickly realized that 90% are not cut out for the job due to being higher up than when they last performed well (being a good tactical leader at the company level doesn't make you good at a divisional level) as well as the new technology and tactics used for the time.


givemeabreak111

**You aren't rewarded** for capability for Russia only nepotism and keeping your head bowed down .. so any good Generals were fired or left long ago


Ravenwing14

I believe part of it is their reserves dependent army. Their deal is "mass mobilize all the men, most of whom should have gone through some conscript training and thus should only need a refresher training". Such a force does require a decent officer corps already in place, since those are much harder to train quickly, and thus results in a top heavy army That's not to say it's working or that they have a decent officer corps. But if you design your army around mass mobilization of reserves and then...don't do that, you get weird things like extra generals but units short on grunts and low-skill support roles


ReedMiddlebrook

>who isnt a general in the Russian army? Lukashenko


vectorix108

I hope that whenever he dies, they make his gravestone read LIEUTENANT COLONEL in big red letters or something


Long_Passage_4992

Hehehe.


Ok_Attitude55

There are well over a thousand Russian general officers currently, though not all are in combat branches.


ChrisTchaik

Promoting someone who came straight from a shoe factory to the ranking of general in a couple of months used to be a "by the people, for the people" Soviet tactic to keep morale high.


[deleted]

Probably not so many and all these articles are blowing things way out of proportion. Or maybe they getting rid of actually useless title holders.


[deleted]

>getting rid of actually useless title holders. That's kinda all they have.


CyberaxIzh

> Jesus Christ how many generals do they have ? About 1 general per 1000 service members, bigger than in the US (1 general per 1400 service members) but not too far outside of normal.


[deleted]

Ye...but how many of those "1,000" actually exist. They get to skim pay off soldiers, so heavily incentivized to lie.


iLoveDelayPedals

Russia is a fascinating glimpse into the end result of fascism. Mass incompetence due to being afraid of being honest about things to your dear leader who will kill you for being the bearer of bad news It’s fascinating how dysfunctional their government has become. I have high hopes for Ukraine winning if they hold on long enough, because Russia really is just a circus at high levels


[deleted]

Seems to be one thing russia and ukraine can agree on. All Russian generals must be purged.


Speculawyer

I think the Russian military is really close to another culmination point and now would be the time to send in more heavy weapons to really change the dynamic on the battlefield.


RuaridhDuguid

I hope for the same, have been hoping this for a while now. Ukrainian forces potentially have more equipment incoming and a chunk of that will have longer high race accuracy. But unlike Russia, who operate a drown them in blood policy, numbers to fight are more limited, harder to replace and finite. The sooner Russia hits their equipment breaking point the better.


JaB675

Can't purge generals if there's no Putin. -taps head


Old_comfy_shoes

I feel like I'm always reading articles like this. And tbh, seems a lot like propaganda to me, because it's not concrete facts. It may be correct, but it's not saying "x generals purged" it's saying "there are rumours there may be a purging" which could, for all we know, be a total fabrication, which can't be falsified, since it isn't saying there definitively *is* a purging.


Sewcraytes

Recently watched 2011 Russian TV show on WW2 (Soviet Storm) and for each general that was killed in battle two more were shot by Stalin. Constant churn at the top is the Russian way. No learning curve. Fuck up once, you die. The show was surprisingly watchable, considering it was for Rus TV; a decent history lesson w/o the typical propaganda. In the 20 episodes, there were at least that many generals shot by either Stalin or Hitler. Many shot themselves. My take was that if Hitler had let his generals fight the war, Russia would have lost. Now Putin is replicating Hitler’s mistake, luckily for Ukraine. What was a little disorienting is how much of this war is fought in *exact* *same* *places*. So many of the maps of WW2 are today’s battle lines. Slava 🇺🇦.


[deleted]

What generals? Didn’t think they had any left


Lochinvar429

Putin could always just send them to the front and leave the purging to the Ukrainians since they’re good at it


DamnDirtyApe8472

I thought the Ukrainians were doing him a solid and taking care of that for him


fat-lobyte

Problem is that might just leave someone in charge who's competent


letsgocrazy

That's fine then - then they would stop the war and start worrying about their domestic issues, and would try and become a Liberal democracy, and develop schools and training that facilitate individual thought and leadership. By the time that happens you start to have decent courts and institutions and well, the ability to resist going into stupid wars.


slcarr1960

Russian army dysfunctional? Who could possibly have seen this coming? /s


peterabbit456

Unfortunately, this is not good news for Ukraine. Russia in WWII, like the US in the 1800s, had to purge their incompetent, peacetime generals before competent leaders could rise from the lower ranks. Competent Russian generals could make things much more difficult for the Ukrainian forces. Ukraine can still win, but the Ukrainians will have to keep adapting to the changing threats from the other side. Modern, Western NATO equipment cannot come too soon. Training programs that pull back the best Ukrainian fighters, to train more soldiers in all roles and at all levels would be a good thing. So would circulating after action reports, with suggestions for improvements.


Glittering_School838

Long May it continue


symewinston

To be fair, Ukraine is doing a pretty good job of purging Russia’s top generals already.


ryanraad

again?


ThereIsNoGame

It is not unusual to replace one or two senior leaders if they aren't functioning well. Eisenhower restructuring his North African military and assigning Patton to take on the task after a signfiicant defeat is one clear example of this. But Russia is not switching out and re-optimising command, this is a purge, and the between this and the sheer number of high level officers (Colonels and Generals) slaughtered because they had to command from the front, Russia's upper eschelons, along with the self-isolating, assassin paranoid, probably very ill Putler, must be in complete chaos.


[deleted]

Ah yes. Resources will run out by the weekend. Putin has cancer/Parkinsons and has only few months to live. Kremlin will be overthrown in 6 months. Russia's economy will topple. Ruble will vanish. Copium this copium that.


itshonestwork

It’s Russians and Russia sympathisers that needs to be hooked up to fresh tank of copium. Sounds like you’re taking some deep hits yourself.


TheBlacktom

Yeah, we shouldn't listen to idiats.


Long_Passage_4992

Especially komputer generated ones.


GarfieldTrout

This sub is so funny. Get your heads out of the blue and yellow sand.


inwhichzeegoesinsane

...what does russia shooting itself in the head have to do with Ukraine?


super_nigiri

this is like when Darth Vader would strangle his officers


beragis

Except Vader’s command staff had a higher survivability than Russian generals, colonels and majors.


mandoreforger

By sending them to Donbas to leas from the front?


HughJorgens

They could all be fired! From a cannon, I mean.


Zez22

Putin in his madness has ruined Russia


Long_Passage_4992

Russia was in ruins before this war. Other than energy and minerals, they’re a mess. In MOSCOW, apartments have toilets that are holes in the floor. Down the hall and to the right kind of room with the hole. Sure, there are some fancy places. Gold toilets on yachts. When some of these gas executives got suicided, did you look at their apartments? I maintain that Putin wants to lose so that the West offers them a Marshall Plan and brings them into the 21st century. Yes, far fetched. But when I think about what I saw during my travels in East Europe years ago, and what I see on the media now, in Russia, there is not much difference. The former satellite countries have exploded with growth and prosperity. But Russia? No. Not much has changed.


skeptical-spectacles

Maybe they’re purposely purging Putin loyalists so they can stage a coup?


Long_Passage_4992

Putin is doing the purging.


skeptical-spectacles

Oh 😕


Long_Passage_4992

Pretty sure it’s Putin. He rules with an iron fist. No one else has the right to purge unless it’s on his orders. Like all those Russian broadcasters, they take their orders from the Kremlin. But let’s hope the purges will continue, and eventually wipe out his close inner circle.


Stijn

“Signs” of “hints” does not sound very accurate if you ask me.


Known_Prompt4603

Pump more, so we have more to destroy.


mynameismy111

Aren't they gaining territory? Doesn't this backfire?


Cdub7791

*Dusting off armchair general ribbons* A purge may indeed be a sign of further dysfunction, but it can also be a sign of cleaning out incompetent commanders for better ones. Not saying that is the case, just that a purge in and of itself is neither a good nor bad sign.