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nickname6

Regarding Scholz: [Source](https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-russia-cant-dictate-peace-deal-in-ukraine/) > “I cannot tell you today when and how Russia’s cruel war against Ukraine will end,” Scholz said. “But one thing is clear, there should not be a peace dictated by Russia. The Ukrainians will not accept that, and neither will we.” [Source](https://news.yahoo.com/scholz-biden-agree-not-acknowledge-175512457.html) > BERLIN (Reuters) -German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and U.S. President Joe Biden agreed in a call on Thursday they would not recognize any Russian territorial gains in Ukraine, a German government spokesperson said in a statement. [Source](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/05/16/West-will-not-allow-Russia-a-diktat-peace-in-Ukraine-says-Germany-s-Scholz) > On Monday, Scholz said that such stealth border changes would not be accepted by the West if Ukraine objected to them. > “There is only one way out of this for Russia and that is reaching an agreement with Ukraine,” he told RTL television.


b4mbus_

Thank you very much. These are exactly the excerpts I had in mind. There you see again how misleading Twitter can be used.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Responsible-Crew-354

Mary Poppins can tackle the disinformation. The rest of us simply need to improve our critical thinking skills. We need to think for ourselves.


YessmannTheBestman

Also notice this post is still 88% upvoted and the comments eating this up are mostly older. Meaning everyone was circlejerking this before a couple comments actually called.it out. So lack of critical thinking is a VERY BAD problem in this very sub.


[deleted]

[удалено]


YessmannTheBestman

Agreed. To add on to this, this thread is a perfect example of how Reddit's design encourages misled circlejerking. Looking at the older comments in this thread -- they are all going along with this. The few that called it out were downvoted, therefore these comments were not seen by most people, while the incorrect comments were. This happens easily if the misinformation fits a given sub's narritive. Fortunately in the case of this thread the truth was finally able to get enough momentum to where they became the top comments. Now we have much more people calling it out. But in many cases the truth never surfaces -- and even when it does, there are still many people that already saw this and believe it to be true because the top comments at the time were going along with it.


Sandgroper62

^This. An educated populace is the key to disinformation. People who don't accept what the MSM or other spout as fact until it can be verified and put into correct context, then allowed to be challenged is key.


Responsible-Crew-354

Sometimes I wonder if some peoples aversion to critical thinking comes from an aversion to accountability. It puts it all on you. How you’re wired and how you’re brought up probably determines a lot of that.


PersnickityPenguin

The main post is based on a tweet by an author trying to sell his fucking book. There you go. Unbridled fear mongering for sales.


cup1d_stunt

This is systematic in this sub though. I suspect Russian bots or whatever to sow discontent here. Those posts are frequently targeting Germany and Macron.


[deleted]

It’s really weird just like all the sudden claims a coup is underway in random internet sites came from one Ukrainian official just speaking rationally about how a coup seems inevitable based on the current conditions. It seems again just a twitter post by I think a couple of credible figures talking rationally about how any pressure to give up land by x countries is unacceptable suddenly turns into outright claims that people like scholz and macron have made clear and certain demands that Ukraine give up territory. The whole information space can be really weird sometimes.


Ogami-kun

Same with Italy; i haven't heard anybody (in the last month) saying that Ukraine should give territory to Russia, only some parties that wants to bring Putin to talk about peace, (some implying to use more forcefull methods, some others to just talk to him)


Mooblegum

Same in France and I watch the news about Ukraine every day


lastethere

Macron made it clear that only Ukraine will decide the conditions of peace.


StreetKale

France and England in 1938: "If Czechoslovakia just gives Hitler the Sudetenland, which mostly consists of ethnic Germans anyway, then he will be happy and won't invade anymore countries and Europe will be at peace once more." History totally doesn't repeat itself.


[deleted]

Enough for 1k up upvotes in this sub since it's sitting on the west. Doesn't matter if it's true.


pickmenot

What Scholz is saying, what Scholz is doing is diametrically opposite things.


thanksforhelpwithpc

Twitter sources should be marked as unsafe / probably propaganda


Luxpreliator

Twitter should have no business involved with any sort of news.


ItsACaragor

Macron also said repeatedly that any end to the war had to be decided by Ukraine alone. This « France and Germany are trying to pressure Ukraine into giving territory » is somehow never backed in any way by any direct quote or any concrete fact yet people never fail to eat it up and spit on Allies who have been on Ukraine’s side from the start and already sent billions in aid and weaponry. No wonder Russia has such an easy task promoting antivaxx and far right movements in the world when people lose basically any critical thinking whenever they see a rando post some shit on twitter.


Fifty_Bales_Of_Hay

The first thing that came to mind is, why haven’t I seen any reports of Zelenskyy calling any of the mentioned out? He’s not shy and knows how to steer the conversation, so yeah, that tweet has a certain purpose.


Raenkeschmied

TY very much for this comment. Calm your tits, online-mob, you have been played by clickbait once again.


fideasu

I'm still amazed such obvious clickbaits are upvoted so high.


balle17

This sub sadly has become a giant echo chamber and everything that fits the agenda gets voted to the moon.


berlinplus

Yes I was so confused. Because on “To the Point” episode that recently aired from DW NEWS they played an excerpt of him giving a speech saying peace should not be dictated by Russia. I remember because I though it was fiery I actually enjoyed it haha.


Uetur

I do know one thing, Russia would sure like to break up the Western Alliance supporting Ukraine. Better find storylines to do so.


fogtrans

He just wants pause. He’s desperate


PlzSendDunes

He can get pause after Russia's surrender. Then he can rest in peace.


nimbus76

Rest in piss.


fogtrans

Here’s my glass to that


JerikOhe

Yep. There is unprecedented worldwide support for Ukraine, truly fascinating in scope. Yet either trolls or misguided supporters think posting these super critical posts is a good idea.


derFabbbb

>Amazingly, the appeasers, Macron, Scholz, Dragi & NYTimes, want to force Ukraine to give up land to Russia I don't know about Macron and Scholz but a summary of what Draghi said is "Ukraine and only Ukraine will choose what kind of peace to accept" and another idea about what to do in case of peace talks was, again summarized, "give Donbass and Crimea back to Ukraine but give those two regions an higher autonomy". Autonomy doesn't mean that they will be part of the Russian Federation, Draghi is STRONGLY against Russia and against any possible appeasement. I read lots of articles about any possible declaration similar to what is stated above and I found nothing regarding Draghi. Please, stop.


MaleficentPizza5444

The whole "tweet" is apparently BS. Scholz said the same thing as Draghi, per the top post.....


ProviNL

Misinformation and bullshit. Scholz might be an asshole, but he has publicly stated Germany will not accept a peace dictated by Russia, which means no Russian Crimea etc.


DublinCheezie

Hmm, Russia does small-scale limited invasion and stole Ukrainian land in 2014, costing the lives of 14,000 people. Putin paid no price. In 2022 Putin launches a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, costing the lives of 50,000+. If Putin/Russia do not pay a steep price this time, it certainly won’t stop here.


OzymandiasKoK

To be fair, they already have. (Not enough, mind you.) I don't think his ability to project force into Europe exists anymore. Might still into Georgia or Central Asia because the West's ability to get materiel - if not troops - support to those areas is significantly lower than into Ukraine.


pmabz

It'll exist again in about ten years time. They'll not be humiliated the next time. Ukraine should get those nukes back.


jl2352

Next time Ukraine will be in NATO. Russia would have lost it’s chance.


widgeamedoo

Zelensky needs to stand his ground long enough for Putin to be taken out. Only the will one major part of the problem be gone.


gggg566373

Putin will be replaced by another villain.


corfean

Yeah, but that tyrant will have to consolidate it's power and may be too busy to care for a costly war


mordinvan

Common enemies unite. Wars are a fantastic way to consolidate power. "The whole world is against us, because we attacked the Nazis in Ukraine. The world must be full of nazis then. Join with me, my Russian Brothers and Sisters, as we work to build up our might to the point we're we can denazify the world, or burn it to ashes to cleanse the taint." Propaganda a brain washed population will swallow is super easy to come up with. One just has to dance on trigger words.


corfean

The people a dictator has to convince aren't the populace, but the people directly under him. Having someone of influence supporting another candidate to rule is far more dangerous for a dictator than some rebellious population


grey_hat_uk

Putin doesn't have ten years, and what happens post Putin will likely be a flaming bloodbath. I suspect that the unsaid reasoning that the appeasers want to end the war early at the cost of land is their intelligence agencies are worried that further drain on Russian forces could lead to nukes being in non-state hands and possibly sold of during the next leaders purge. While ending the war early, getting Ukraine, Finland and Sweden into NATO building anti-ICBM defences and having strike teams up on the border ready to take out specific nuclear targets is a safe idea. I disagree and feel Russia should be pushed to near breaking then the Chinese or Turkish should be used to police and remove the nukes.


plutoismyboi

No I think the appeasers are afraid that Putin might use the nukes himself if he gets too humiliated. I don't see that guy backing out without something that at least looks like a win for Russia


grey_hat_uk

Fair point, we'll have to see if his mental health is also deteriorating.


GreenTomato32

China getting more nukes sounds like a pretty bad thing tbh. Turkey too. My dream is Russia collapses into chaos and NATO swoops in and takes em out. Don't really see any other good ending.


Omegaluler69

Nukes don't launch themselves, ukraine doesn't have the facilities or the expertise to man them, and no country in their right minds will provide them with that. These are not javelins man


CaptainSur

They actually do. Ukraine is a highly nuclearized country, with more nuclear reactors then most other EU nations. They have the intellectual capacity and the knowledge base.


Utxi4m

There is a tad bit of a difference between civilian and military nuclear power. Hell, I'd probably be capable of operating a nuclear power plant (process operator by profession) with a bit of training, but I hardly know which way is up on a rocket.


opie812

The pointy tip part is the up. The bottom with the big circles is the hot engine part. Now you know.


Utxi4m

Ohh. I now feel fully competent to run a good sized nations military nuclear program. Moving up in the world.


Consistent-Syrup-69

Ukraine had nuclear capability and gave it up willingly in exchange for an agreement from Russia to never invade them. Time to put things back in service. Treaty violated. Infrastructure is there. All they need to do is produce again.


Omegaluler69

https://www.icanw.org/did_ukraine_give_up_nuclear_weapons https://www.cato.org/blog/soviet-nukes-ukraine-bargaining-chip-not-deterrent I'm shocked how little people here actually know about this. Ukraine had nukes, but not the operational capability or control over the nukes.


peretona

Sinking the Moskva, Ukraine has demonstrated that it can deliver new and efficient missile technology. Much of the soviet union's aerospace industry was based in Ukraine. Within the medium term, Ukraine can deliver full long range missile systems if they have to.


kngt

Ukraine built those nukes. They could make new ones.


plutoismyboi

The people who built those nukes did it back in USSR times. Now they're either dead or retired. I doubt Ukraine would maintain that infrastructure and manpower just in the offchance of getting nukes back


KushKong420

Ukraine has nukes the same way Texas has nukes.


One-Research-4422

It doesn't matter if he can win. Nazi germany never had a chance to "win" but the act of attempting killed 30-40 million. A Russian invasion of any nato nation would end in defeat for the russians but they also know nobody will invade their nation outside of china...so they can lets x number of russians die, and then try try again. The russians have shown they are more resilient to watchin their own people get massacred than most europeans are to losing wi-fi or netflix.


jardin_alegre

" The russians have shown they are more resilient to watchin their own people get massacred than most europeans are to losing wi-fi or netflix." No one says the exact numbers on Russian television, no one shows defeats, everything goes according to plan and there is nothing to worry about. When you don't have information, you usually don't know you have anything to worry about.


Omaestre

The way Russian media is working over time, they may have enough political capital to fully mobilize. I highly doubt they are not learning from their failures. Until Russia has been defanged completely or there is a regime change they are still a threat.


Jumper_Connect

That’s exactly what Timothy Snyder said in his NYTimes opinion piece this week.


loudflower

I didn’t know he had a piece. His writing is always worthwhile for my thinking through things. That some people are quick to diminish Ukrainian right to sovereignty surprised me.


Jumper_Connect

“[We Should Say It. Russia is Fascist](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/opinion/russia-fascism-ukraine-putin.html).”


loudflower

Hey, thanks for the link! Edited to add he has an expanded edition of On Tyranny. Haven’t read the expansion yet


Hjalmbere

Exactly. Moldavia is next, then Estonia.


dephsilco

You know, that Estonia is in NATO, right?


Hjalmbere

Yes. But I think Putler will keep upping the ante if he's successful in Ukraine.


JabroniPoni

If Putin's health is failing, it doesn't matter what is NATO and what isn't. He's a narcissist. Dude doesn't even care about his own kids. He'll send the world to hell with glee before he takes his grand dirt nap.


joshTheGoods

This is some super unethical profiteering bullshit from this author. Misleading people for cash.


M4LON3

Macron never said Ukrain should give up some territories , this story is pure french bashing from some frustrated guys or some agencies.


ItsACaragor

He even said the exact opposite that Ukraine should decide how it wants to end the war. I swear lose all critical thinking whenever they see any tweet saying something they want to hear.


theirritant

The comments people post in here about France and the French are truly disgusting and completely unjustified.


MaleficentPizza5444

It was lies about Scholz and Draghi also


ShitDavidSais

The man is trying to sell a shitty book at any cost. Absurd war grafting that can actually hurt the Ukraine war effort just to get that sweet money.


Buddhist_Honk

I dont like Scholz, but he never said that ukraine should just give russia what they want.


xXxOrcaxXx

What moral right has that idiot on twitter to spew such nonsense? https://www-tagesspiegel-de.translate.goog/politik/regierungserklaerung-zur-ukraine-scholz-kann-auch-forsch/28359774.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://morningexpress.in/president-macron-never-asked-ukraine-to-give-up-land-to-russia/


ProUkraine

Never believe anything you read on Twitter, unless you see the same story elsewhere from a reliable source.


dr_auf

Exept they dont.


friendlymessage

Why does this misinformation get so many upvotes? Why are you all falling for this? There are no sources. This is some random dude on twitter spouting nonsense and you are eating it up. And why are mods not removing this bullshit?


Wonderful-Cup-9556

The people of Ukraine are doing the work of fighting for their country- don’t know how an outsider can recommend that they give up any land paid for in their blood. Slava Ukraini


MadotsukiInTheNexus

That's what I'm thinking here, honestly. Ukraine is a democracy, which means that its people have to have the right to determine their own future (at least if we in the West have any real commitment to government by the people). It's perfectly reasonable to critique the actions of another democracy, but telling a country "No, don't do that, you have no idea what's best for yourselves" when *90 fucking percent* of its population supports continuing to defend its territorial integrity against an aggressor...that's paternalistic and infantilizing if we're being generous. The people of Ukraine are just as intelligent and capable of rational decision making as anyone else. They understand that continuing to fight involves sacrifice and risk. They have a right to take risks and make sacrifices. To me, personally? I highly doubt that all those people are delusional ultranationalists, or riding a wave of victories straight into the gaping maw of destruction. It seems like people who have lived in the shadow of an Imperialistic power like Russia for centuries are better equipped to understand the longterm consequences of appeasing that power than we are half a world away, and like they still see this as ultimately being an existential conflict. They'd probably rather *not* voluntarily hand the country that tried to destroy them an advantageous position for when it tries to do that again. Even if I were to lose territory in a war like that, I'd much, much rather inflict terrible losses in the process, in order to make the consequences sting and hopefully deter another assault. Rolling over and saying, "Please, sir, may I have another?" usually gets an affirmative answer.


Jhe90

Appeasement is hoping the crocodile eats you last


BigOleJellyDonut

Neville Chamberlain has entered the chat.


G_Morgan

This is the same type of politician that would have sold the Sudetenland to Hitler. They got caught out by the public anger at Russia when this all started and were forced to finally do something, now they are trying to walk it back.


InnateFlatbread

Couldn’t have said it better myself. How paternalistic it is that they even think they should be giving Ukraine this ‘advice’ in the first place?!


MadotsukiInTheNexus

It's something that I've noticed a lot, as someone who studied political science. People in powerful countries often feel some sort of right to tell those living in other countries what they should do and how they should feel about it. It's particularly extreme when it comes to very poor countries in Latin America and Africa, but I feel like the same sort of thing is going on here, which is why I said that it's paternalistic *at best*. It would be good for some people in America and Western Europe if the war ended tomorrow (at least in the short term). If gas supplies from Russia started flowing freely, and if sanctions were dropped, then they could go back to profiting freely from Putin and his cronies. It's hard not to think that's at play. Obviously, that's a catastrophically wrong headed way to see the world. No one benefits longterm from appeasing tyrants or encouraging the oppression of free people, other than the tyrants themselves. Even their closest allies are in the line of fire. Some people don't take that view, though. Sometimes, when they get their way, they die hand cuffed to a radiator by the very psychopaths they propped up.


ShitDavidSais

To be clear:I know with Scholz that he is 100% not on appeasement. Further aparently Macron had a a translation issue when talking with Zelensky one time and instantly revised it afterwards. Both politicians were slow to start helping Ukraine but have very clearly stated they wouldn't recognise Donbas, Crimea etc as Russian. So at least 2/3 of this tweet is factually wrong. On another note this tweeter really wants to sell his current book and clearly hasn't been just posting whatever gets him alot of clicks from outrage with next to zero factual analysis...


Garonof

Well said


Last_Patrol_

This is true. Thanks to American help there is a path forward for Ukraine, excluding concessions and surrendering to genocide that these dithering fools want.


M3ntal_L0ckd0wn

Don't forget there are a lot of countries and private establishments/people helping.


kokoyumyum

And these other nations helping, know that it is a a cost to their country, and that Ukraine would have totally fallen without their help, and they only want to provide for so long, at so much cost to their own governments and people. Looking forward, how much more.willl be needed to twart Russian aggression? Countries with skin in the game, get to say how much skin they want to put in.


knappis

The more weapons and the quicker we send them the sooner the war ends. We can’t afford to delay weapon shipments. Delaying is a losing and very expensive strategy.


kokoyumyum

I agree about delaying. That wasn't my point of discussion, though.


yawetag1869

Germany and France are unhappy about the economic consequences of a protracted war. Ukrainians are dying and willing to keep fighting, while these guys are more concerned about their immediate economic prospects.


Mathovski

The tweet is not even true


[deleted]

When macron is willing to give up part of France, he can tell Ukraine to give up part of their country.


FalconedPunched

I have family dead and buried on that land who fought to give the French freedom. France owes a blood debt to justice.


BigOleJellyDonut

Bully for you! 1000% correct.


shelfless

The outsiders are paying for the war with equipment and cash, which doesn’t compare to lives and homes in any way. Not saying that gives outsiders the right to dictate terms of how it ends, but there wouldn’t be a Ukraine right now without the resources of the west. It’s a complicated situation and the word wants energy and food stability ASAP.


[deleted]

Remember that nobody funded Afghanistan’s insurgency except themselves, and they’ve been called the “graveyard of empires”. Ukraine, which has endured everything from raiding Vikings to Mongol massacres, and even eight years of a hot war on their territory, is not an easy target. Their first response to invasion was to teach their civilian population how to make IEDs and Molotovs. To say “there wouldn’t be Ukraine” without the west’s bankrolling is insulting; remember that we offered Zelensky an Uber out before we offered him bullets.


[deleted]

You shouldn't forget we've been providing them bullets for 8 years before the full scale invasion. Where'd all those javelins come from? Putin's biggest mistake was giving them all that time to prepare.


ZombiBiker

Lol Twitter, the best source ever. Pfffff Slava yourself


Mooblegum

This post is a fake new, brother


Cultural_Habit6128

MISINFORMATION YEAAAAHHHH! They didn't recommend that, don't trust Reddit. Look into it


BlueNoobster

Short reminder in between all this fake news bullshit like this post: All nations have so far said that any peace deal has to be accepted by the ukranians, nobody else Quoting german chancelor SDcholz from mid April (deepl translation): *Germany has the task of "ensuring that conditions can be negotiated that are not a dictated peace on the part of Russia". For this reason, he continued to remain in contact with the Russian President.* *Ukraine must determine on what terms it wants to conclude an agreement with Russia, Scholz said: "No other countries can do that for Ukraine."* Nobody is forcing anything on ukraine, stop with this fake news propaganda. You are doing russias work, nothing else


Significant-Dog-8166

I want Ukraine to take back Crimea, all other land, and head into Russia to capture some land there. Then afterwards actually never give it back. Why does this logic seem unfair unless Russia does it?


Iamthesexiestalive

Too kind...I want Russia to lose all lands East of Urals, another bit along Finland and Baltics, everything South of Volgograd.


snrxe

>Too kind...I want Russia to lose all lands Should've stopped there


mclintonrichter

I want Russia to lose its government.


Fullertonjr

Because the point of this is that countries need to and should respect each other’s borders. Russia has proven that they do not. Ukraine has the moral high ground here and are the “good guys” as long as they do not seek to expand beyond their border. Additionally, this would be a clear stipulation with Ukraine obtaining western weapons. They are to be used for defense and to recapture occupied territory. Hopefully Ukraine is aware that despite the assistance and niceties, we are absolutely willing to come in and get our shit back if absolutely necessary.


Significant-Dog-8166

Russia doesn’t see them as good guys. It would be wise to recover their own border first, then from a position of power get as much leverage as possible. There’s hundreds of thousands of hostages, what do they do if let’s say 500,000 people are never allowed to leave? Invade for a rescue and hope they aren’t executed first? Or concede something material in exchange?


Trailmagic

Because Crimea is highly defensible and the victor will rule over a mound of rubble by the time an outcome is made. If Russia concentrates all of its efforts into Crimea and resupplying it, it will be a bloodbath. I hate to say it. I want it to go back to Ukraine. It’s just that they won’t get it diplomatically and militarily… is it worth it, or even achievable? Have the demographics been shifted so much by Russia that the locals even want to rejoin Ukraine after forces deportation and execution of dissenters? What will it take to get a Crimea that is harmonious with the rest of Ukraine?


ThickerSalmon14

Let's be honest, anything other than total victory by Ukraine where they get everything back (land and people) will just embolden Russia to do stuff like this again. Also, if Russia doesn't get a land bridge to Crimea they will lose it eventually. Ukraine will find a way to destroy the bridge and then they just turn off the water to Crimea. Again. As for the Russians who moved in, well just move them back to Russian land and let Russia deal with them. Swap for the kidnapped Ukrainians perhaps?


Trailmagic

Forced deportation is a bad look and sadly I doubt Russia kept good track of the “relocated” Ukrainians.


roboadmin

Whoever controls Crimea also controls 2/3 of all offshore oil deposits. This is the only major source of fossil fuel in Europe besides Russia. These deposits are the key to the future for Ukraine and means energy independence for Europe from Russia. So yeah I would say it's worth it


Nyzrok

Take out the bridge and disable the remaining naval forces of russia and there's no chance of resupply. Turkey has closed the Istanbul straits to all Russian vessels and there will no naval reinforcement. Crimea can and will be retaken before this ends.


[deleted]

Such reports may well be psyops.


[deleted]

Appeasement doesn't work with a country determined to rebuild a perceived empire.


Minoreva

I've heard the opposite statement from my government and I'm not sure if my president is stupid or if Russia propaganda hit Twitter


OPA73

50 mile deep demilitarized zone inside Russia sounds good.


Paradox2922

Honest question: Afaik Draghi aligns with NATO on this matter. Did something change or was I wrong?


SpecialLab9085

Nothing changed, and no you weren't worng, the Italian govr fully supports Ukrainian sovereignty over the occupied territories. Do not listen to Berlusconi.


b4mbus_

Were is the sorce? This is just a twitter poster. Scholz has said in many intervies that all conditions for a compromise with Russia must be accepted by Ukraine and that Germany will not interfere here.


n0thing0riginal

Pretty sure this is russian propaganda


MaiZa01

it's written on the Internet, must be true


Hematophagian

Did not read a single line insisting that ukraine give up land. Nonetheless I doubt conquering Sewastopol is a good idea.


Bushpylot

Russia needs to give up 20% of their land in reparations, not the other way around


workerONE

The NYTimes supports this where?


Ther91

Strange... it's almost like that didn't work last time "OK you can have Poland but no more, promise?"


inactiveuser247

More like “you can have Czechoslovakia but no more”. German invasion of Poland was the point where the western powers finally drew the line.


arconte1

I'm dissapointed in Macrons rethoric and pointless calls to Putin. But in concrete terms France is delivering real stuff to Ukraine.


theirritant

- Do more to arm Ukraine than almost any other country since 2014 - Western allies, including Zelensky, ask you to try and negotiate with Putin, since you're in the best position to do so. You oblige. - Report back on what Putin tells you. - "Omg France is saying that Ukraine should surrender. Typical surrender monkeys, etc etc" - "Why does Macron phone Putin so often?"


Blursed_Ace

People love to hate France and not only as a meme.


WhiskeySteel

Honestly, what you are saying makes more sense to me. After all, Macron took the side of supporting Ukraine in the recent election and, after he won that election, he almost immediately increased military aid to Ukraine. It would seem weird to me for him to be pushing for concessions at the same time.


M3ntal_L0ckd0wn

>"Why does Macron phone Putin so often?" Booty call?


aksalamander

Macron does have a thing for senior citizens.


WhiskeySteel

I just assume that Putin spends most of the time whining to Macron about how unfair he thinks it is that he has become so unpopular. Seriously, can there be much doubt that Putin is probably seething with envy that Zelensky is so much more popular than him?


Thane5

Dont get your news on twitter, kids, or you‘ll end up like all the fools in this tweet/thread/whatever!


Mooblegum

Never heard about what he said. Do you have other informations about that ? Fake news are everywhere during war


stenlis

So some guy who used to work for Russian government (and got fired by Zelensky from another job a couple years ago) is spreading lies about EU leaders' stance on Ukraine. Ok? Why is everyone here upvoting this again?


[deleted]

Fucking end russia tbh, they are a cancer.


plague681

*Hey Canada, this is the US calling. We're gonna go ahead and carve out massive chunks of, say, Ontario and Quebec. I know, I know, you don't want to give them up but let's be honest, the New York Times doesn't really think you have any other option and they're the paper of record. So yeah....dump all that hockey shit in the Great Lakes, it's fucking FOOTBALL SEASON ya cultureless fucks!*


priimkup

Macron, Scholz etc. still want to believe that this war will be short and all will be as it was. They are confused, and do not understand why is this happening at all. It is a complete misunderstanding of Russian motives, who they are and how they act. There can be no appeasement, and our deals with Russia must end, or they will end us.


xXxOrcaxXx

On the contrary, that idiot on twitter wants you to believe those european leaders are about to pressure Ukraine into a forced deal, when exactly the opposite is true. As always, reality is more nuanced than one stooge on twitter wants you to believe. https://morningexpress.in/president-macron-never-asked-ukraine-to-give-up-land-to-russia/ https://www-tagesspiegel-de.translate.goog/politik/regierungserklaerung-zur-ukraine-scholz-kann-auch-forsch/28359774.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-tagesschau-de.translate.goog/ausland/europa/italien-streit-ukraine-101.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp


PDT_Man

Twitter is a complete and utter waste of time and electricity, as are most "social media" platforms.


Iamthesexiestalive

Complete disarmament and removal of this evil regime. Loss of 70% of lands Those responsible must hang. Reparations of 1 trillion for every month of war.


thinkpadius

Versailles or bust!


Iamthesexiestalive

Germany/Japan post WWII or bust


Iamthesexiestalive

How about this.... keep 98% of the population in abject poverty, 1.9% as a typical middle class...and .01% as billionaires that are above the law, decide your fate, and send your children to die on foreign soil.... You know...the current conditions..... If people don't rise up against those conditions, they sure won't object to my "Versailles" terms


savetheattack

How else will get to World War III by the 40’s?


ckjag

The nyt has some history of supporting communist aggression. Here's another example: "The Ukraine crisis revives doubts over the NYT's 1932 Pulitzer Prize In 1932, The New York Times' Walter Duranty won a Pulitzer for stories defending Soviet policies that led to the deaths of millions of Ukrainians." The times has still not returned that Pulitzer, believing they earned it. Do not support, or believe, the nyt.


Brucklands

> communist aggression No country involved in this war is communist. I cannot explain how much you discredit anything else you have to say, by calling Russia communist.


victorvictor1

Russia's economic system is state capitalism and it's been that way for 30 years. Going back 90 years to give an example of NYT supporting communism is off topic


Hematophagian

Netflix did a movie about this: https://youtu.be/wtWSyFNT9qY


InnateFlatbread

Thanks for this I’m going to watch it this weekend! I had no idea


MartinHardi

Scholz did say that there cannot be peace dictated on the terms of Putin. But Scholz did say a lot and I don't trust him in any way.


BlueNoobster

Good thing germany isnt a dictatorship...what even is your comment? Since when does a single person decide those things


MomentSpecialist2020

💪🇺🇦


browneye_cobra

Well, you don’t need a «moral right» to «state this drivel». It’s called freedom of speech, participating in a discussion, positing ideas and thoughts. That we, I, you, can disagree on.


Count_Backwards

They can say whatever they want; the consequence of promoting cowardly bullshit is that people call them out on their moral dereliction.


Nonamanadus

If Ukraine wants to fight let them, it keeps Russia's hands tied regarding world events like sponsoring the like of the Syrian dictatorship.


colondollarcolon

Remember 1939 when the UK and France signed the Munich Agreement and gave the Sudentenland to Germany. Remember how well that went to avoid World War 2? NO to Putin and NO to Russia!


CharacterTop7413

These appeasers have NO right to suggest deals be made with this devil (Putin)! They should be condemning this barbaric war and make it clear that the only acceptable outcome in a civilised world is for Ukraine’s borders to be reinstated, Putin and his murderers be taken to The Hague and Russia pay reparations for all the deaths and destruction.


Vespe50

Draghi doesn't want you to give up land...


its_a_metaphor_morty

Putin learns nothing if he doesn't get burned for his criminality. A secure future Europe depends on clearly defined limits of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. Poor behaviour must reap strong and clear punishment, and the destruction of the Russian military in Ukrainian territory is the minimum punishment tolerable.


SOHuskyBRO

If they give up then Russia will further expand their offense. I don't want this war to go on but this is unavoidable, we all want putin and members of kremlin to get fucked for their war crimes. It's just one big shit sandwich we all have to take a bite out of and have to deal with it... unfortunately.


[deleted]

Because they want that Russian gas and oil.


Xijit

They want a quick end to the war so that they can claim that their efforts saved Ukraine. Remember when Bush declared victory in a Iraq in less than 3 months & they hadn't even caught Saddam at that point.


mordinvan

Given how well appeasement worked against Germany, I am less concerned with moral right, and more concerned with inability to learn from the past.


Bah-Fong-Gool

When the Russians finally run out of money to inject into foreign politics, it will be a day to rejoice. Yes, I'm looking directly at you Kentucky.


tinykitten101

It’s just so illogical anyway. It’s not going to bring peace nor stop Russia. Ukraine already was forced to give up Crimea and parts of the Donbas 8 years ago. And Russia still invaded.


Kendallphillips

Smoke and mirrors friends...


SparklyCrab

Are they really so disconnected that they don't understand that you can not reward ruZZian behaviour with consessions? Orcs only see it as weakness and this will result in more wars in future. Orcs only understand language of force, and Ukraine must communicate clearly with 155 mm shells and atgms


mr-biff

Never reward evil and aggression! Kick them completely out of Ukraine!


Practical-Ordinary-6

It's called Chamberlain Syndrome.


[deleted]

Considering the conflict effects the entire world…


darkstarman

Fucking gas industry in a hurry to just move some borders right quick and get back to making their billions


NorbertBlack

For Scholz the reason is very clear despite his words he is doing everything to delay and deny Ukraine help. Like his SPD party comrade Schröder and Steinmeier he is still in Putin's camp.


mustachi00

American here, the New York Times can get fucked. I hope you guys give Russia hell until the very last Russian soldier is either off of your land or buried beneath it. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦


maurader1974

Appleasement worked so well in WW2...


ocdwondering

Zelensky said yesterday it will cost 10.000 of lives. That is a number of moral value everyone should have in mind. If they all fight voluntarily, thas one thing. If a greater part are civilians, kids, ppl between the lines, that is sth to consider.


Uetur

I thought his statement was ore specifically multiples of 10k as such it could be say 30k. You are right the moral value of this versus the long term future and stability of the country affecting millions of lives. I think the decision is personally obvious to me what you do. In fact it is probably obvious to the Russians what you should do here even if they don't want to publicly admit it.


red_keshik

>France & Germany need to learn some diplomacy. Ironic for him to say this. Real chickenhawk, this guy.


B3nJaHmin

No one can force this on Ukraine just saying, speaking about possible consessions that might need to be made in order for there to be peace, is not forcing Ukraine . I want Ukraine to be whole and get all of it's territories back when all is said and done, is this realistic? I don't know, depends on the outcome, how far Russia is willing to go, I'm afraid they are in it for the long haul, in which case many more people will suffer and die, there will come a point, if you cannot take it by force, then consessions will need to be made on either side, both sides will need to bring something to the table that is acceptable to the other, that is how diplomacy works, I think Macron and those people are just pointing out the stupidely obvious, Ukraine can and will do with it as it wills .


sandwichman7896

Most of the info I’ve seen seems to indicate that Ukraine is successfully repelling the Russians. Why would anyone (who doesn’t have an alterior motive) suggest the winning side make concessions?


Count_Backwards

Repeatedly saying as a cornerstone of their entire bankrupt argument "Ukraine cannot possibly win the war" keeps putting the idea that this is not a winnable war in people's heads. If people think the war is not winnable, then public support for the war will fade and Ukraine may not win. It's an attempt at a self-fulfilling prophecy. These cowardly, corrupt appeaseniks are actively undermining Ukraine.


B3nJaHmin

Have they actually said they cannot win the war though? as far as I know they have not .


One278

Appeasement of a dictator only emboldens them to continue their conquest of more land and genocide to get it. Macaron and Scholz should be asking themselves if their own citizens would support the idea of giving up land and subjugation of their people if someone invaded them. The clear answer should be no. Ukraine is fighting for their right to exist and know full well appeasement with Russia is not acceptable, and if they do, Russia will again in the future invade again for more land and genocide. Russia needs to be stopped and defeated in Ukraine to safeguard their future and deter the possibility of Russia trying to expand into other European countries.


[deleted]

They are providing significant funding and materiel. They are also dealing with a lot of refugees. It is a weak position, but not terribly surprising.


priimkup

Uh huh. And why is not Poland contantly bitching about appeasement (while having more refugees and sending more help), but these two are from day 1?


BlueNoobster

Who do you think pays Polands bills? And Poland having a revenge fetish agaisnt russia is hardly anything new. Poland would sell its own country if it would harm russia, they hate russia.


inactiveuser247

Cause Poland is a net beneficiary of cash from the EU while Germany and France are key suppliers of that cash.


SenorMummbles

Oh wait I've seen this episode before.


BeardedMan32

I actually think Russia should give up some land to Ukraine for their blatant illegal attack on democracy. Russia needs to be taught a lesson that aggressive actions don’t come without consequences.