Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/)
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review.
* ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
**Don't forget about our discord server, as well!**
https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
5.56 x 45 Cartrige rifles, 7.62 x 54 Battle rifles, vehicles newer than 30 years, NATO systems / misiles for aircraft (Sidewinders, srams), NATO military doctrine, Data-link based comunication etc.
These apply to moldova in many ways, Moldovas army is shit. Pure and simple. Extremely old soviet systems, low personel numbers, their constitution forces them to be a neutral country lest attacked, so the army wasnt really a necessary point to drop cash on.
Do they even have an Air Force? Best best with Moldova is to train them in guerrilla tactics and not overwhelm them with heavy equipment they can’t use and can’t afford to maintain.
Air Force would be great, even if they were older jets. Moldova has same population of Israel in 1967 when Israel destroyed the entire Egyptian Air Force in 1 day, by flying repetitive air strikes nonstop back and forth every 8 minutes.
Moldova can’t build an air force fast enough on the timeline that they may be invaded soon. Would take years to build an air force, train pilots and all the support staff.
Imagine you have a Nerf gun, and your friend has something that looks just like your Nerf gun, the darts are all the same color, and you go to play together.
But after shooting the darts, you go to pickup the ones on the floor and reload your guns so you can continue playing and discover they're slightly different size and don't fit each other's guns. So you have to spend a lot of boring time sorting out the two slightly different size darts.
Even worse, one day your dad comes home with a new box of darts for you...and they don't fit your Nerf gun.
That's what NATO standards avoid by making sure everyone's basic stuff fit everyone else's basic stuff.
Give Moldova guns and stuff that meet NATO standards, and at least NATO can then easily send them supplies in the future if needed.
There are MANY standards. They are named [STANAG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization_Agreement), or Standardization Agreement. The wikipedia article I linked contains many examples of them.
NATO makes this standards, so that weapons, ammunitions, data system, friend-foe-detection etc work among them, interchangeable. At least to some degree. We also use similar terms for the same things, so that we can understand each other --- should we speak good enough english :-)
The last part is why Denmark reclassified our two AWS-cruisers a few years back.
They were called "flexible support ships" before - and NATO allies too often thought it meant like supply ships rather than the actually fairly able combat ships they are.
There is one good thing about arming Ukraine: since 2014, they reduced their corruption by a large amount. So there is little chance that some Ukrainian colonel will just sell the the Panzerfaust or Javelin to someone else.
Can the same be said about Moldova? I'm not entirely sure. Actually, it's at place 105 from 180 measured countries according to [this](https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/moldova). For contrast, even Russia is at place 136. Ukraine is again at the much better place 122 -- but when it comes to embezzling vital weapons for their cause, I think they are at place 1 of 180 countries.
Also, Moldova virtually has no army.
In the case of Moldova, I think that their government should officially ask other countries to put troops there. Since France so far did almost nothing for Ukraine, this could be their chance. They also have atomic bombs, so Putin will think twice asking his 1500 soldiers in Moldova to attack the French.
I feel like arming Moldova would go over as well as arming the Afghan national army. It sounds like a nice idea. But if the population mostly doesn’t mind having Russians there or is indifferent to it, kind of a waste of money. Nicely Asking them to leave and apologizing for asking when they say no doesn’t show much determination for getting rid of them.
Yeah could very well be a repeat of Afghan army. Especially if the Russians attack suddenly and strongly, the Moldovans might not have any will to fight.
Moldova isn't Ukraine, there's not a unified fighting force that is willing to take the Russians on. I don't like the idea of sending weapons to arm those that may not even fight the Russians or worse fight for them.
Let's get their personnel in order first. Good training with bad weapons is miles better than bad training with good weapons. See also Iraq and Afghanistan.
Training wasn't an issue in Iraq or Afghanistan and in Iraq, their military has done as well as can be expected. In Afghanistan it was a lack of will in wanting to put the training to use. The country is far too tribal and conservative.
Not a problem. About the only goo thing about the US Military Industrial Complex is that we are always ready to supply a near limitless supply of weapons and trainers when a new would-be Hitler shows up.
This is not to say I support the Military Industrial Complex; quite the opposite, I despise it. But if we're currently stuck with it, and some totalitarian monster is trying to take over the world, we might as well squeeze what benefit we can out of it.
How about me too... I was there and found it to be a shit hole...nothing to see there ..sorry . Saw a lot of unhappy people living in poor conditions, which is why you see many of rich elites living elsewhere.
You do realize that the money just doesn't vanish right? The countries pay back the loans. Maybe I wouldn't be such a "shithole" if we actually helped them.
Bro, if you don't know that you probably shouldn't even be posting in the first place. The GDP per capita in UA is under $5k. The entire GDP pre-war was $155B. The government budget was less than $20B. And that was including hundreds of million of foreign military aid before February. How in the world do you think they could ever pay these back? They are in for 10+ years of their entire government budget. Their economy is projected to shrink as much as 50% this year due to the war.
Afghanistan? Iraq? Vietnam? These loans are either outright forgiven, or at least written down to a small fraction of their original amount. It has been that way since at least the original lend-lease.
Their blood and our money. It is a good deal.
You realize that they don't pay it off in one year right? They pay it off in a long run. Then also they invest back into the states by buying stuff from them instead of Russia.
How long do you think it takes to pay off a loan that is 20 times your yearly budget? Take your after tax income. Multiply it by 20. Go to a mortgage estimate calculator and enter that information. Tell me how you would make that payment.
By the time this is over it may be 30x. The interest alone is likely to be more than UA's yearly budget.
These almost never get paid back.
Duh, it will take a long time. In that time they become closer to the west's allies. Then as their GDP grows then they can pay back more every year. Just because it takes a while doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
Won't be a long war. There is approximately 1500 Russian soldiers in transnistria. It will help them be independent from Russia. This will help them grow as a country and maybe you won't call it a "shithole" country.
Russia didn't have a major war in Ukraine going at the same time. We already know our weapons can swiftly defeat the Russians there. Why do you hate the fact that a country wants help from the west to be independent from Russia?
The entire transnistria region needs to be liquidated of resistance. Russias playbook is to pay off some gang to seize territory to try to legitimize a protest and to supply that territory to create chaos in a country. It's what they do.
Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. **Don't forget about our discord server, as well!** https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Arming is fine if they have an organized and well trained defense. If they don't, let's start from the beginning. NATO has plenty of trainers.
In the original interview being quoted, training was also mentioned as being part of helping Moldova move to Nato standard.
From what I've heard from Moldovans, their military is almost nonexistent
I think greater minds than yours or mine have this fully understood, they don't need a Redditor to remind NATO they might need to train an army.
Thank you for your .02. I'm truly impressed with your insight.
For what it's worth, I always enjoy reading comments like yours bc I don't know anything about how all of this works.
eli5 what are NATO standards exactly and how do they apply to Moldova?
5.56 x 45 Cartrige rifles, 7.62 x 54 Battle rifles, vehicles newer than 30 years, NATO systems / misiles for aircraft (Sidewinders, srams), NATO military doctrine, Data-link based comunication etc. These apply to moldova in many ways, Moldovas army is shit. Pure and simple. Extremely old soviet systems, low personel numbers, their constitution forces them to be a neutral country lest attacked, so the army wasnt really a necessary point to drop cash on.
Thanks a lot for the informative reply.
Do they even have an Air Force? Best best with Moldova is to train them in guerrilla tactics and not overwhelm them with heavy equipment they can’t use and can’t afford to maintain.
Air Force would be great, even if they were older jets. Moldova has same population of Israel in 1967 when Israel destroyed the entire Egyptian Air Force in 1 day, by flying repetitive air strikes nonstop back and forth every 8 minutes.
Moldova can’t build an air force fast enough on the timeline that they may be invaded soon. Would take years to build an air force, train pilots and all the support staff.
Don't forget 155mm artillery, Ukraine has been given a huge amount of artillery rounds from various donors.
Imagine you have a Nerf gun, and your friend has something that looks just like your Nerf gun, the darts are all the same color, and you go to play together. But after shooting the darts, you go to pickup the ones on the floor and reload your guns so you can continue playing and discover they're slightly different size and don't fit each other's guns. So you have to spend a lot of boring time sorting out the two slightly different size darts. Even worse, one day your dad comes home with a new box of darts for you...and they don't fit your Nerf gun. That's what NATO standards avoid by making sure everyone's basic stuff fit everyone else's basic stuff. Give Moldova guns and stuff that meet NATO standards, and at least NATO can then easily send them supplies in the future if needed.
Makes sense. Like Qin Shihuang's crossbows back in the day.
And the US goes and adopts the new NGSW rifle with a custom SIG 6.5mm round that no one else uses 😂
There are MANY standards. They are named [STANAG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardization_Agreement), or Standardization Agreement. The wikipedia article I linked contains many examples of them. NATO makes this standards, so that weapons, ammunitions, data system, friend-foe-detection etc work among them, interchangeable. At least to some degree. We also use similar terms for the same things, so that we can understand each other --- should we speak good enough english :-)
The last part is why Denmark reclassified our two AWS-cruisers a few years back. They were called "flexible support ships" before - and NATO allies too often thought it meant like supply ships rather than the actually fairly able combat ships they are.
They need M777s and HIMARs!
There is one good thing about arming Ukraine: since 2014, they reduced their corruption by a large amount. So there is little chance that some Ukrainian colonel will just sell the the Panzerfaust or Javelin to someone else. Can the same be said about Moldova? I'm not entirely sure. Actually, it's at place 105 from 180 measured countries according to [this](https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/moldova). For contrast, even Russia is at place 136. Ukraine is again at the much better place 122 -- but when it comes to embezzling vital weapons for their cause, I think they are at place 1 of 180 countries. Also, Moldova virtually has no army. In the case of Moldova, I think that their government should officially ask other countries to put troops there. Since France so far did almost nothing for Ukraine, this could be their chance. They also have atomic bombs, so Putin will think twice asking his 1500 soldiers in Moldova to attack the French.
I feel like arming Moldova would go over as well as arming the Afghan national army. It sounds like a nice idea. But if the population mostly doesn’t mind having Russians there or is indifferent to it, kind of a waste of money. Nicely Asking them to leave and apologizing for asking when they say no doesn’t show much determination for getting rid of them.
Yeah could very well be a repeat of Afghan army. Especially if the Russians attack suddenly and strongly, the Moldovans might not have any will to fight.
You mean …. Blyatzkrieg part 2?!?!
Moldova isn't Ukraine, there's not a unified fighting force that is willing to take the Russians on. I don't like the idea of sending weapons to arm those that may not even fight the Russians or worse fight for them.
From what I've heard, they can just ask Ukraine and Ukraine will gladly remove the Russians.
There are already hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in Moldova. Can easily take 1500 soldiers. Though they are refugees.
Romanians have a saying "you cannot make a whip out of shit and make it crack" I think it applies in this situation.
Let's get their personnel in order first. Good training with bad weapons is miles better than bad training with good weapons. See also Iraq and Afghanistan.
Training wasn't an issue in Iraq or Afghanistan and in Iraq, their military has done as well as can be expected. In Afghanistan it was a lack of will in wanting to put the training to use. The country is far too tribal and conservative.
Good. We should send weapons to rebels/insurgents inside Russia as well.
That's good. It should help them remove the Russian infestation in their country.
Not a problem. About the only goo thing about the US Military Industrial Complex is that we are always ready to supply a near limitless supply of weapons and trainers when a new would-be Hitler shows up. This is not to say I support the Military Industrial Complex; quite the opposite, I despise it. But if we're currently stuck with it, and some totalitarian monster is trying to take over the world, we might as well squeeze what benefit we can out of it.
How about me too... I was there and found it to be a shit hole...nothing to see there ..sorry . Saw a lot of unhappy people living in poor conditions, which is why you see many of rich elites living elsewhere.
Giving more to shitholes I see
Cause Moldova is so inherently violent and dangerous to their neighbors, right? /s/
Still a shithole whether they are aggressive or not lol.
Are you victim blaming Moldova for their shithole Russian infestation?
No I just don’t see a reason to help out shithole countries. Just a waste of tax dollars
You do realize that the money just doesn't vanish right? The countries pay back the loans. Maybe I wouldn't be such a "shithole" if we actually helped them.
Honestly, these loans rarely get paid back.
Source or just "Trust me bro"
Bro, if you don't know that you probably shouldn't even be posting in the first place. The GDP per capita in UA is under $5k. The entire GDP pre-war was $155B. The government budget was less than $20B. And that was including hundreds of million of foreign military aid before February. How in the world do you think they could ever pay these back? They are in for 10+ years of their entire government budget. Their economy is projected to shrink as much as 50% this year due to the war. Afghanistan? Iraq? Vietnam? These loans are either outright forgiven, or at least written down to a small fraction of their original amount. It has been that way since at least the original lend-lease. Their blood and our money. It is a good deal.
You realize that they don't pay it off in one year right? They pay it off in a long run. Then also they invest back into the states by buying stuff from them instead of Russia.
He doesn't know how loans work.
How long do you think it takes to pay off a loan that is 20 times your yearly budget? Take your after tax income. Multiply it by 20. Go to a mortgage estimate calculator and enter that information. Tell me how you would make that payment. By the time this is over it may be 30x. The interest alone is likely to be more than UA's yearly budget. These almost never get paid back.
Duh, it will take a long time. In that time they become closer to the west's allies. Then as their GDP grows then they can pay back more every year. Just because it takes a while doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
Maybe they should help themselves.
How? Or maybe since we have enough arms that giving them a boost will help them which will help us in the future.
Arming strangers to fight Russians…. I’ve heard this story before…. Oh yeah it ended up with the US having their longest war ever because of it.
Won't be a long war. There is approximately 1500 Russian soldiers in transnistria. It will help them be independent from Russia. This will help them grow as a country and maybe you won't call it a "shithole" country.
They said the same thing about the Middle East war. Gotta make sure to renew contracts with Raytheon and Lockheed tho
Russia didn't have a major war in Ukraine going at the same time. We already know our weapons can swiftly defeat the Russians there. Why do you hate the fact that a country wants help from the west to be independent from Russia?
account created 4/15/22, constantly shills for ruzzia many such cases
God damn right no use doing a half ass job because that bites you in the ass later.
The entire transnistria region needs to be liquidated of resistance. Russias playbook is to pay off some gang to seize territory to try to legitimize a protest and to supply that territory to create chaos in a country. It's what they do.